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#linode IRC Logs for 2020-01-16

---Logopened Thu Jan 16 00:00:11 2020
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01:32<muco>what are you doing in here ? (:
01:33<muco>./rehash
01:34<muco>.ping
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05:19<root_>hello
05:19<root_>no one in here
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05:19<root_>i am a begginer
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05:20<root_>hi
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05:21<rsdehart>root_: !ask
05:21<rsdehart>!ask
05:21<linbot>If you have a question, feel free to just ask it -- someone's always willing to help. If you don't get a response right away, be patient! You may want to read http://alexfornuto.com/how-to-ask-for-help-on-irc/
05:22<root_>thanks
05:22<rsdehart>root_: if you got here following a tutorial, this is the community chat channel for a vps hosting provider
05:22<rsdehart>however, we don't bite and will try to help you
05:22<root_>ahha
05:23<root_>no i am reading linode.com to learning how to work in, and i am here for that
05:23<rsdehart>ohhh ok
05:23<rsdehart>step one, it's not wise to irc as root
05:24<root_>ok , i get out
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05:24<rsdehart>well no
05:25<rsdehart>well crap
05:25<Woet>http://bash.org/?139697
05:26<rsdehart>pretty much
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05:37<EL_>nothing
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05:46<rsdehart>what
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09:13<FluffyFoxeh>nothing
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09:30<nyancat>something
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10:31<FluffyFoxeh>everything?
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11:54<Zr40>anything.
12:20-!-arby [~arby@tsn109-201-154-219.dyn.nltelcom.net] has joined #linode
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12:23<arby>Hey @ops ! What IS it with Linode's love for your super-secret "Security Researcher" customers that scan at will, ask for no permission, provide little-to-no info abt WTF they do, and never provide any legit contact info? Is it REALLY that profitable for you that annoying your other customers is a good thing? Must be ...
12:28<dwfreed>I mean, kicking them off Linode isn't going to stop them
12:29<dwfreed>they'll just use some other provider, which has worse abuse policies
12:29<ericoc>hey arby what is with you trying to publicly shame Linode in their own community support channel when nobody has any info abt WTF you're talking about... must make you feel good, maybe hit them up at abuse@
12:29<arby>dwfreed: Sure. Cockroaches are everywhere. Doesn't mean my own landlord shouldn't use bugspray ...
12:30<dwfreed>have you, you know, tried to use Linode's abuse contact?
12:30<arby>dwfreed: that's funny. yes. repeatedly. for years. they're response is "they're legitimate security researchers" ....
12:31<arby>their* even ...
12:31<dwfreed>*shrug*
12:31<arby>ditto
12:31<dwfreed>it's the internet
12:31<millisa>block the IP, move on?
12:31<dwfreed>^ this
12:32<millisa>if it's identifiable in a way that you can tell it's the same type of 'research' coming from different IP's, a fail2ban rule or something similar might be the way to go
12:32<arby>millisa: sure. tho, that's not the point.
12:33<millisa>security research is a legitimate use of linode
12:33<arby>sure. completely anonymous punks running a scanner. "Researchers". riiiight.
12:35<ericoc>maybe you shouldn't run a server connected to the internet
12:35<millisa>what specifically are you seeing that's got you upset? for all we know, you've got legitimate beef.
12:41<arby>millisa: just policy. lack of opt-in. and a Linode 'req't' to opt-OUT by providing all my IPs across all my Linodes -- to the 'researchers'. NO contact EVER provided (other than an email) *from* Linode. and, paying for the privilege.
12:41<arby>irksome ...
12:45<dwfreed>and if they weren't on Linode, you wouldn't even have that opportunity
12:45<arby>so?
12:46<dwfreed>so getting rid of them from Linode would make the situation worse, not better
12:46<arby>lol. so Lindode's doing us a solid? cool!
12:46<millisa>they aren't anonymous at linode. undisclosed to you maybe, but not anonymous.
12:47<ericoc>you're probably getting hit just as hard, if not moreso from providers like ovh, vultr, digitalocean, etc. etc.
12:47<dwfreed>^ also that
12:49<ericoc>#vultr and #ovh on freenode, make sure to go complain in those channels too
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12:49<arby>millisa: hehe. that makes it all better!
12:50<millisa>It is better.
12:50<millisa>Linode doesn't want miscreants on their network; if the researchers are doing unrequested pentesting, or things that aren't *really* research - you complain, they know how they are, they respond.
12:50<millisa>er, know who they are
12:51<millisa>It's why I was asking what specifically they were doing; for all I know, I don't want them doing it to my systems either.
12:51-!-Horrorshow [~oftc-webi@wsip-174-78-92-122.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit []
12:51<dwfreed>but it doesn't really stop them, just keep that in mind
12:52<arby>millisa: Different strokes. Your network, your rules! If you're cool with paying LInode to allow noise from your own provider, +1! WORKSFORSOME.
12:52<arby>dwfreed: tech'y != policy
12:53<millisa>So, not going to say what specifically it is?
12:53<@bbigger>arby: We can and will pass on blacklist requests to our customers which are routinely honored. To the point of having a more streamlined way to "opt-out" from activity conducted by our security researcher customers, we will absolutely look into implementing a service such as this from our abuse portal https://www.linode.com/legal-abuse/
12:55<arby>@bbigger: I've been suggesting such a global OPT out that "your researchers" have to use to scrub IPs for years. Linode's refused each & every time. If that's changed/changing, that's news!
12:58<arby>@bbigger: Linode wants 'us' to provide *our* IPs to opt-out to each-&-every one of your "researchers", but you refuse to proactively provide *us* lists of ALL of their scanning IPs -- for the sake of their privacy & security.
12:58<arby>Not that that can't be found out AFTER the pests are identified ...
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13:09<@bbigger>arby That's a fair criticism, and I definitely understand your frustration. We recognize that the conduct of our security researchers does come with a public burden, and have been actively working to reduce that burden. I'm going to meet with our Trust & Safety team today to relay this discussion and see what can be done in the way of implementing solutions above what we currently have.
13:11<arby>@bbigger: thx. also to consider, for any "security researcher" scanning-IP NOT on @Linode, I'm happy to find/block their neighborhood /24, or entire ASN; my net, my rules, my choice. It's fast & efficient, deals with their frequent whack-a-mole IP hijinx, and I don't give a hoot abt the fallout in those cases.
13:11<arby>But can NOT do that for @Linode sources -- as *my* Linode is often in the neighborhood, so only option is to seek-n-destroy individual IPs. which takes time & effort. certainly doable, but it's your policy that's costing me that add'l time & effort. with LOTS of Linodes, and LOTS of "Security Researchers" ... that's a problem that scales.
13:12<arby>of COURSE "it's the internet". I don't want to pay Linode for the privilege of worsening the condition.
13:12<arby>As I said, it's a policy complaint.
13:13<arby>The 'cherry on top
13:13<@bbigger>arby absolutely
13:13<arby>' is that 'they' don't provide their contact info ... cuz they don't want their resources abused.
13:15<arby>my *personal* pet-peeve is that these researchers are using 'our' resources to enrich themselves ... they sure don't provide ME any value in return.
13:15<arby>vampires, parasites & viruses share the behavior.
13:20<nate>Reading up a bit, I'd like to note;
13:20<nate><arby> Hey @ops ! What IS it with Linode's love for your super-secret "Security Researcher" customers that scan at will, ask for no permission, provide little-to-no info abt WTF they do, and never provide any legit contact info? Is it REALLY that profitable for you that annoying your other customers is a good thing?
13:20<nate>Nothing stated in this directly is technically illegal, at least by US law
13:21<nate>Shady yes, but illegal no if they're just doing stuff like shodan
13:22<nate>(though the shady part is more in the identity hiding than just the actions)
13:24<arby>ah, the it-ain't-illegal-so-it's-fine argument ... how very Facebook-y! ;-)
13:26<nate>I didn't say that, but should the police be able to come to your house and tell you that you can't tan in your front yard because they don't think you look good?
13:26<nate>Asking company to punish customers that aren't violating law and aren't technically 'hurting' anything doesn't seem kinda silly?
13:27<arby>No, but they CAN be called to tell YOU that YOU can't tan in MY front yard.
13:27<arby>Who's asking anyone to punish anyone? I want them out of my front yard, and I particularly want my neighborhood association (aka Linode) to stop enabling them.
13:27<millisa>Did .. did you just demand those kids get off your lawn?
13:28<arby>millisa: yup. AND i wagged my finger, too!
13:28<millisa>e's gettin' the hose. Cheese it!
13:28<arby>nate: if they published identity info & scanning IPs, @Linode portal, then I can choose to let themm in or not. Problem solved.
13:29<arby>heh
13:29<nate>Somewhat get an impression you wouldn't necessarily anyways considering you're basically asking linode to "do something about it" just because you don't know who they are and despite them not violating anything necessarily
13:30<nate>anyways just stating my two cents as a customer and a security guy so
13:30<millisa>So if they had a list, publicly accessible (maybe via the api) of all registered IP's used for research - that'd satisfy you? You could write your own routine to do stuff with that list?
13:31<nate>Honestly I can understand well for why they're probably hiding their identity even for legitimate purposes
13:32<@mcintosh>vampires don't exist
13:32<millisa>(they had that bit in the new policy docs about marking a linode for business purposes or not, it seems like any function they eventually come up with to make that easier could just as easily be used to 'mark this linode for security research')
13:32<arby>fascinating to watch all the arguments in favor of these yokels' behaviors, cuz they're at Linode .... in any case, of COURSE they can be dealt with. that takes FURTHER resource. if you're ok with Linode's policy 'taxing' your account/costs/resources/etc in that way, the good for you!
13:32<millisa>This Anti-Vamp sentiment will not stand!
13:32<arby>"It's the internet" afterall.
13:32<arby>I'm not, hence my discussion with my vendor.
13:34<arby>millisa: I have no-such-problem with movie femme fatales ...
13:34<millisa>Oh shookie
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13:36<arby>@mcintosh: Clearly they do, https://www.nature.com/articles/palcomms20156 . It's from a "Researcher" -- must be legitimate/true/useful
13:37<nate>arby: If you're saying that they're impacting the resources of your linode, that's an entirely different story, but you said nothing of that in your original claim
13:37<nate>"cause they're at linode" Is literally irrelevant, I would argue this for anyone on a damned godaddy VPS
13:38<arby>I've said several times above that it's also resource related. I've also pointed out that this^, here, is NOT the 'original' claim -- either here, in chat, or via support.
13:40<arby>Yes, at Linode is irrelevant ... ain't me saying that it's ok/better/justified/rationalized that 'they' are at Linode
13:40<millisa>You said earlier you'd want publish info and scanning IP's - what if they only gave the research ip's. Not enough to satisfy?
13:40<nate>When I read up I saw nothing talking about resources of a linode server, and if you're trying to say general port scanning is impacting your servers resources I would wonder what pentium 2 era provider and harware you're on
13:41<arby>nate: you're welcome to do/accept whatever behavior/policies/etc you want for the money you pay ...
13:42<arby>millisa: given the assumption (?) that it's a complete/valid set of IPs -- vetted, one assumes/homes *by* Linode -- then sure, fair enuf, that's far better than what's now in-place.
13:42<millisa>i think that'd satisfy me, too
13:43<arby>Still begs the question of why 'they' fail to provide any contact info that's easily found. If they're 'legit' security researchers, they're publishing something somewhere to someone. Not like they're hiding from the planet. Just from their 'targets'.
13:43<nate>Generally I would accept the same that all provides, including linode, already do. That nothing violates law and nothing causes direct service issues, neither of which has been shown to be the case yet to me. But again, my two cents
13:44<arby>Yup. Your net, your server, your rules.
13:44<arby>I'm certainly not attempting to convine you ...
13:44<nate>You want the blunt answer? Because people like you generally, same reason I don't always make my info clear on certain tests I run, if you're doing stuff like this to linode and asking them to basically "do something" that violates nothing I can only imagine how you'd treat/harass trhe source lol
13:44<nate>*the
13:45<nate>That's usually why any critical personal info is obscured. Mind you I still usually leave at least some way of contacting
13:45<nate>just not personally identifiable
13:45<arby>"people like me" ? *I* would 'harass' the source? lmao. not THAT's worth an ignore for me :-)
13:47<nate><arby> sure. completely anonymous punks running a scanner. "Researchers". riiiight. <arby> lol. so Lindode's doing us a solid? cool! <arby> dwfreed: that's funny. yes. repeatedly. for years. they're response is "they're legitimate security researchers" ....
13:47<nate>Yes, harass the source, using just those few out of many comments that make your opinion and personality pretty clear
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13:50*nate wonders honestly if this hasn't just been a fishing attempt hoping they can get actual identity info of the customer since that seems to be their main focus
13:54<warewolf>arby: Hi. Security researcher here. You literally have full control over who touches your IP addresses. It's called a firewall.
13:55<arby>warewolf: great. please provide me a list of all the IPs you scan from, and where, on Linode's site, it's announced that you're doing so ...
13:55<warewolf>Nope.
13:55<warewolf>wanna know why?
13:55<nate>careful, you'll get ignored too
13:55<nate>lol
13:55<warewolf>you're literally asking the entire world to do your bidding, when the internet is a wild wild west. You just have to deal with the noise, it's part of being connected to the internet.
13:56<arby>nope. don't care. my net, my server, my rules. not interested in your rules/policies, only in my resources. as apparently you are interested in your own ....
13:56<warewolf>then firewall it off.
13:56<nate>^
13:56<warewolf>like I firewall off all of china from my mail server.
13:56<nate>Arby seems to be under the impression that linode is their 'net'
13:56<arby>what are your IPs?
13:56<arby>happy to firewall you off.
13:56<warewolf>like I said, you have 100% full control over who touches your resources. Your firewall.
13:57<nate>bbigger: I really hope you guys have no intent to actually do anything he's asking
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13:57<warewolf>and actual malicious attackers aren't going to heed your request of them announcing themselves to you.
13:57<nate>warewolf: "his net, his server, his (iptables) rules" :P
13:57<arby>thanks for making my point.
13:57<warewolf>so it's much better for you to have a firewall that blocks anything you don't expect.
13:58<warewolf>fwiw I didn't say I do any scanning.
13:59<millisa>Come on, you can give up your ranges. You gave it to me earlier. It was 0.0.0.0/1 and 128.0.0.0/1. I just blocked that and it fixed it all!
14:00<warewolf>arby: you can complain to linode, but unless a linode customer is _activly attempting to compromise your infrastructure_ you don't really have much of a leg to stand on.
14:00<nate>at least they shouldn't, which is why bbigger's seeming compliance/catering to arby is a bit concerning
14:00<arby>sez the 'researcher' that continues to hide behind their anonimty and 'use' our resources for their own profit.
14:01<nate>Apparently he's selectively ignoring the part where you noted you didn't even say you did any scanning
14:01<warewolf>are you going to complain to news websites for running javascript on your browser for the purpose of delivering advertisements too?
14:02<warewolf>know what I do for that? I block the javascript in my browser. Again, I have control over my resources and how they're used. You do too.
14:02<arby>the 'news websites' aren't touching my resources uninvited.
14:03<nate>... except they technically kinda are
14:04<millisa>some do (bloomberg does)
14:06<arby>millisa: Wasn't yet aware that they do. But, if they do, there's at least a corporate mailing address ... they're not identity hidden. AND, if they're hosting whatever scanning they do ON Linode, abusing Linode customers, then my point hasn't changed at all.
14:07<millisa>(they aren't. they use their own ip space. the bot isn't obviously named; it's something like 'blbot')
14:08<nate>Has anyone actually been given any evidence of this "abuse against linode customers" other than his own personal definition of abuse?
14:09<nate>did I miss that above somewhere?
14:15<arby>millisa: 'bob-bot' perhaps? https://github.com/bloomberg/bob-bot
14:15<millisa>can look. (I had blocked it briefly before i figured out what it was and decided the site did get some benefit from it)
14:17<arby>since I subscribe to bloomberg anyway -- my choice -- then I make that deal with the 'devil' knowingly ... tho, logs show nothing like it. so far, anyway
14:18<millisa>The one I was seeing was BLP_bbot
14:19-!-jalter was kicked from #linode by ChanServ [CLEAR USERS command used by mcintosh (No Reason)]
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---Logclosed Thu Jan 16 14:19:53 2020
---Logopened Thu Jan 16 17:05:14 2020
17:05-!-mikegrb_ [~mikegrb@phoenix.thegrebs.com] has joined #linode
17:05-!-Irssi: #linode: Total of 98 nicks [11 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 87 normal]
17:05-!-Irssi: Join to #linode was synced in 0 secs
17:05<@mcintosh>there we go :)
17:05<@mcintosh>cews: ^ :D
17:07*tmberg kicks mcintosh.. =)
17:07-!-jback [~jasper@shell.jhq.io] has joined #linode
17:07-!-jback is "Jasper Backer (jhq)" on #virt #linode #debian #ovirt #debian-next
17:08*mcintosh cries
17:08<tmberg>Then you know how me/we feel. :-D
17:19-!-TJ- [~root@2a02:8011:2007:0:782d:1d5d:4314:d288] has joined #linode
17:19-!-TJ- is "TJ https://launchpad.net/~tj" on #linode #virt
17:21<@jdutton>savage ;)
17:22<cews>epic
17:29<cews>I bet it was something to with clearing BAN lists earlier
17:29<cews>Chanserv sucks
17:29<dwfreed>I believe he was looking to clear a different channel
17:30<chesty>I think a detail incident response report needs to be posted asap and mcintosh's parents notified
17:30<@mcintosh>!point dwfreed
17:30<linbot>mcintosh: Point given to dwfreed. (93)
17:32<chesty>no one talk about #linode-fight-club
17:33<cews>I am unaware
17:47<LouWestin>The first rule of fight club is, you don’t talk about fight club.
17:50<nate>So whatever happened to the "I don't like being port scanned but I'm too lazy to firewall" guy? I sorta stepped away from that insanity, and apparently missed a mass kick to boot lol
17:51<cews>mcintosh: did good
17:51-!-AugustusCaesar24 [~AugustusC@99-190-112-116.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #linode
17:51-!-AugustusCaesar24 is "Augustus Caesar" on #linode
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18:05-!-_Cyclone_ is "CPU Heat" on #linode #ceph
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18:23-!-ajmitch_ is "Andrew Mitchell" on #linode #debian-php #ubuntu-expats #debian-ipv6 #debian-ubuntu
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18:57-!-FluffyFoxeh is "John Brooks <john@fastquake.com>" on #linode #oftc #oclug #kernelnewbies #debian
18:57<FluffyFoxeh>D:
18:57<FluffyFoxeh>!towel mcintosh
18:57<linbot>FluffyFoxeh: Point taken from mcintosh! (21)
18:58<FluffyFoxeh>jk mcintosh you're cool bby <3
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19:28-!-yepperoni is "yepps" on #linode
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20:17-!-Nilu is "OFTC WebIRC Client" on #linode
20:17<Nilu>I need a promo code
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20:31-!-troy is "troy" on #linode #debian #oftc
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20:58-!-waltman is "Walt Mankowski" on #linode
21:10<LouWestin>!point mcintosh
21:10<linbot>LouWestin: Point given to mcintosh. (22)
22:00-!-Adam- [Adam@00017f0a.user.oftc.net] has joined #linode
22:00-!-Adam- is "Adam" on #linode #oftc
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22:47-!-trippeh is "Andre Tomt" on #linode
23:07-!-Strykar [~wakka@strykar.user.oftc.net] has joined #linode
23:07-!-Strykar is "vector" on #virt #rust-beginners #linode #launches #guardianproject #galileo #dotanoobs #bitlbee #arctictelecom #Qubes_OS
23:19-!-Shentino [~desktop@96-41-208-125.dhcp.elbg.wa.charter.com] has joined #linode
23:19-!-Shentino is "realname" on #linode @#tux3 #mm #qemu
23:19<Shentino>O_O
23:19<Shentino>what was that about?
23:20<Peng_>It was an accident
23:20<Shentino>lol
23:32<linbot>New news from community: Can someone provide me the default-ssl.conf archive please? Apache & Ubuntu <https://www.linode.com/community/questions/19334>
23:39<FluffyFoxeh>!topic
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23:57-!-virtual is "Synthetic Intelligent Device" on #linode
23:57<virtual>!paste
23:57<linbot>Please paste longer snippets over at https://bpaste.net/ and not in the channel
23:57<virtual>sorry, i just forgot the one to use - that is all. :P
---Logclosed Fri Jan 17 00:00:12 2020