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#linode IRC Logs for 2020-02-03

---Logopened Mon Feb 03 00:00:39 2020
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01:11<linbot>New news from community: Account Limit reached. Please open a support ticket. <>
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01:33<Woet>which part of "Please open a support ticket." was unclear?
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04:37<chesty>the first part
04:52<linbot>New news from community: openvpn .ovpn file <>
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07:37<LouWestin>His response is, he’s still confused.
07:42<linbot>New news from community: OpenVPN: Server poll timeout, restarting <>
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10:38<Jan_Kowalski>have some question about linnode services
10:39<Woet>Linode *
10:40<Jan_Kowalski>do you accept paypal
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11:10<tonyyarusso>Has a question, but no patience, apparently.
11:11<Woet>and doesn't have a search engine, apparently.
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12:00<Cromulent>I've always been an Ubuntu user but I have to admit I'm really digging OpenSUSE (on the laptop at least never tried it on a server)
12:01<rsdehart>Cromulent: what's the biggest difference?
12:11<Cromulent>getting used to using Zypper for me and using KDE as well (I know I could have used Kubuntu but I always preferred to stick to stock Ubuntu)
12:12<rsdehart>odd requirement
12:13<Cromulent>not really a requirement just a preference
12:13<rsdehart>I use Kubuntu because I like KDE. I used to stick with stock Ubuntu because for years I preferred gnome
12:13<rsdehart>switched to a succession of others when they dropped gnome and settled on Plasma a year or two ago
12:14<rsdehart>seems an arbitrary preference is what I meant
12:14<rsdehart>you're clearly using KDE now
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13:53<linbot>New news from community: I just upgraded my CentOS 8 Linode, and now it won't boot. How do I fix this problem? <>
13:58<nuevu>Is there any way in the new manager to manually close a support ticket?
14:02<@mcintosh>nuevu: the API allows it but apparently the frontend hasn't added buttons for it yet
14:02<@mcintosh>i'll note that with the team responsible
14:04<Peng_>Wait, you can do that in the old manager?
14:05<nuevu>I think one of them used to support it.
14:05<nuevu>And thanks mcintosh.
14:06<@mcintosh>Peng_: nuevu: fwiw, I don't believe classic Manager ever allowed closing tickets
14:07<@mcintosh>(but, the new one should)
14:07<nuevu>It's possible I'm dreaming it, but I could have sworn the new interface did (at least for a while).
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14:08<nuevu>Anyway, I might dig around in the API for that later. I just opened a couple of tickets that should just be closed. I didn't want to waste anyone's time on them (or show my stupidity).
14:09<nuevu>!point bbigger
14:09<linbot>nuevu: Point given to bbigger. (14)
14:14<@mcintosh>tbf it was already confirmed the API allows it :p
14:15<@mcintosh>that said nuevu it has to be in put into a "closable" state by support (meaning we mark it resolved, in effect, on our end) before you can close it as a user
14:15<@mcintosh>and cloud does support it
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14:16<nuevu>So that's the reason for {"errors": [{"reason": "Ticket is not closable."}]}
14:16<nuevu>Also, it appears the URL in the example is incorrect. It's missing the "/support" in the URL.
14:17<@mcintosh>nuevu: thanks for pointing that out... noted it internally
14:17<@mcintosh>also noted that the docs don't make it clear the ticket has to be in a particular state for a user to be able to close it
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14:18<nuevu>Yeah, that would be helpful as well. Thanks.
14:19<nuevu>I am curious why I'm not allowed to close a ticket I opened without Linode involvement. Particularly if there hasn't been any response from support on that ticket yet.
14:19<nuevu>Curious, not upset, mind you.
14:21<Peng_>Do not use a shared account and Linode support tickets to pass secret messages to plan a criminal conspiracy
14:24<nuevu>Well, if anyone's feeling bored, feel free to just close #13320906 and #13320914 to get them out of the queue (two different accounts).
14:33<@mcintosh>nuevu: done
14:33<nuevu>You're my hero
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16:01<cews>hm. Could the loading page on cloud.linode be optional?
16:02<cews>Do tell if I'm pedantic
16:02<cews>Having one of those days where everything becomes hard work
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16:12<mrsideways>cews, fancy UI is all the rage with younger computer users
16:12<cews>Very true. I'm younger than 30, though. Haha!
16:12<mrsideways>like kids these days don't care about how well a site functions, they want it to look awesome and pretty so when they are on drugs they can trip to it or something
16:13<cews>I'm sure about your last sentence, thoough
16:14<mrsideways>Why? do kids these days do more drugs than I did/do?
16:14<mrsideways>Because I do a heck of a lot
16:14<mrsideways>I love my linode nanodes
16:15<mrsideways>one of them got hacked and seems to have been used to hack the platform and randomly reassign ips on the network... I don't know how or what they did but my friend who's a researcher looked into the logs on this nanode that spun up without my making it, and he said it used used for bad things
16:15<mrsideways>if I unintenionally let a security issue happen that cost Linode money, I give them permission to bill me for any lost profit that they can prove is lost as a result
16:16<mrsideways>I am not rich, but it's unfair of my lax security to cost you guys money
16:17<nate>I would be willing to bet there are clauses in the terms that basically leave you open to potential legal trouble if such stuff would happen anyways :P
16:18<cews>!point nate
16:18<linbot>cews: Point given to nate. (9)
16:19<cews>Why should a service provider, pay for someone elses incompetence?
16:19<nate>(it's also one of the things I point out to a lot of people in doing audits that they put themselves at risk of as they oddly don't realize that's usually a thing)
16:19<nate>Then again there are people out there doing credit card stuff without even knowing PCI-DSS is a thing so
16:20<mrsideways>cews, I don't think it was my incompetence, I think it's my ISP who refuses to replace my router even though i have proved to them it is rooted and doing MITM attacks on everything I do... if Linode charges me, I'll just sue them to pay for it unless it's a really small amount
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16:21<mrsideways>I would never push my problems to someone else who seems like a good person to dump them on, such as a provider I am using a service from
16:22<nate>wait, so your router got compromised, which lead to a compromised linode account? Why not just buy your own router? I never use ISP provided routers or modems, them things are like $10 refurbished pieces of crap
16:23<mrsideways>nate, the router handles our tv, phone, internet, and some other stuff I forget, and the only 2 ISPs available both use the same router which has an unpatched vuln in the ssh interface used by the ISP allowing an attacker to root and take full use of the system
16:23<mrsideways>If I switch to the alternative ISP, I get a router which will very quickly be attacked and rooted the same way
16:23<cews>Are you from the Motherland?
16:24<mrsideways>because the manufacturer doesn't maintain the firmware even for security updates, but today after I learned this happned I upgraded my cell phone to unlimited 200mbit data, so I am now using my phone for a wifi hotspot and all my internet, and the ISP router is only doing our TV and home phone
16:24<Peng_>How is the router compromising anything else?
16:25<mrsideways>Peng_, MITM, it's intercepting, decrypting, and forwarding the traffic as it goes in and out, so I see a secure site, with https, but in reality the attacker is using sslsniff and sslstrip to remove the ssl encryption from my connections
16:25<mrsideways>I now am slowly going through the process of using my phones data to re-secure every account I have
16:25<Peng_>How is it intercepting and decrypting HTTPS?
16:26<nate>mrsideways: Ah so some MOCA shit? That's the only time I know of that most providers won't let you use your own modem at least is MOCA stuff, cause "proprietary encryption"
16:26<nate>that said your router shouldn't be able to MitM anything unless it's got a root CA or something on it that your computer is accepting
16:26<mrsideways>It's a attack method made by Moxie Marlinspike, a famous hacker, which anyone with kali linux live iso can use to see all your traffic and steal all your "secure" data
16:27<nate>or it's using really weak encryption (ie; SSLv3, old ass RC4/3DES stuff, etc)
16:27<mrsideways>nate, I also got banned from freenode for DDOS'ing them, which I didn't do, but was logged as from my ip. when i talked to them they allowed me to be unbanned
16:27<Peng_>mrsideways: That's not how HTTPS works.
16:27<Peng_>It's partly how it works.
16:27<nate>mrsideways: Nobody with kali or anything can simply MitM https entirely, it would require either your local system being compromised as well or weak encryption configurations (which most sites shouldn't have)
16:28<mrsideways>Peng_, there was a defcon talk on it, it's a well known attack that was used to fool an entire conference full of hackers and leak their data during the talk explaining it
16:28<mrsideways>I don't know how it works exactly, but it does work
16:28<Peng_>That was many years ago.
16:28<mrsideways>I watched the talk announcing it but I didn't fully understand everything
16:28<nate>It also wasn't exactly like that as far as I recall
16:28<nate>That was like, a decade ago?
16:28<Peng_>SSL stripping attacks are about waiting for people to use HTTP and then MITMing them.
16:29<Peng_>You can't arbitrarily MITM HTTPS.
16:29<cews>mrsideways: things have changed, encryption is better.
16:29<Peng_>And, in recent years, more websites use HTTPS, and HSTS helps prevent accidental or malicious use of HTTP.
16:29<nate>I think the TL;DR of it is if you believe your linode account was breached by the malware on your router, you may wish to check your local system(s) as well
16:29<mrsideways>Oh, that's good to know, but I still got owned by a hacker and locked out of a bunch of accounts and charged for amazon orders I didn't make for many thousands of dollars
16:30<nate>I would be pretty surprised if linode isn't on HSTS preload lists
16:30<cews>mrsideways: Windows?
16:30<Peng_>, 0
16:30<Peng_>, 0
16:30<Peng_>, 0
16:30<mrsideways>So, someone did hack me, and my friend whos a security researcher told me it's coming from the router, he said he was monitoring the traffic and could see the router doing malicious behaviour
16:30<nate>Yeah amazon is almost definitely on all the HSTS preload lists, so I would highly recommend checking your local system(s)
16:30<Peng_>Linode should get the new manager on the HSTS preload list.
16:30<mrsideways>I run windows 10 on my media center, my other computers are all ubuntu variants
16:30<nate>Peng_: Good catch
16:31<mrsideways>I don't like Windows because I do a lot of coding and ML work, which Windows sucks at
16:31<mrsideways>Also, it costs money, $300 CDN for the pro version... so only having one license is a cost saver
16:31<Peng_>nate: It's hard to do the whole domain because of and (less of an issue)
16:32<nate>mrsideways: Just because it's ubuntu doesn't mean they weren't compromised either, linux is not immune. The fact you got hit on services that use HSTS preloading, unless you were using an ancient browser that doesn't have HSTS support, would entirely signal local compromise
16:32<cews>Peng_: manager was
16:33<nate>(and I'm speaking from the perspective of 'security research' as well, pretty sure Peng has involvement in this field as well)
16:33<mrsideways>nate, yeah I have wiped everything
16:34<mrsideways>good thing I take my security more seriously in my business or 10 years of proprietary software development would have been leaked and my data center would all need to be wiped and redone
16:34<mrsideways>the data center is for internal use, we don't host things
16:34<mrsideways>it's not even connected to the internet
16:35<mrsideways>Also it's small, fits 30 racks only
16:35<mrsideways>but next time I buy a new setup for my AGI work... I'm going to have no space to put it
16:36<mrsideways>And I don't trust my life of work to a cloud... I've had code stolen from IBM by IBM and sold without my permission which i didn't learn about until 4 years later
16:36<mrsideways>So I started using my own hardware for all our research and technology
16:37<rsdehart>I hate when that happens
16:39<mrsideways>Well, now I have custom ASIC cards for TPU alternatives, and I can put 4 into each 16x 4.0 slot, and each one is 40x the double precision flops of googles top TPU, and I'm planning to start selling them once we get a bigger batch made for sale because it's not fair that google won't sell people TPUs, I didn't invent these AI cards, but I funded their development and production
16:39<mrsideways>we still have a test batch of 20 which are for us to verify the hardware is properly fabricated before we have them produce the entire order of 2500
16:40<mrsideways>I need 256 of them for my AGI research system, and I want 1000 for putting in our private ML servers that we use for everyday business, which includes enough for us to get much more servers and load them up with them
16:40<cews>Reminds me of > "Chinese Spyware Pre-Installed on All Samsung Phones (& Tablets)"
16:41<virtual>THERE IS? Right, time to burn the tablet.
16:41<cews>Reddit -
16:42<cews>Turns out, my network blocks 360safe.
16:42<virtual>cews: please tell me it's a default in pihole, so I also don't have to worry :)
16:43<mrsideways>I use Ubuntu Touch on my S10+, a port I made myself which is unofficial, and in my opinion WAY better than any of their device ports that the official team makes. which btw, have 0 devices with full hardware support after 4 or 5 years of working on them... I got full hardware support in about 2 years of full time work. The only thing that doesn't work is NFC, but I can test it with a dummy app and see that it does
16:43<mrsideways>work, but Ubuntu Touch platform doesn't support NFC
16:43<cews>virtual: I'm unsure
16:43<mrsideways>I used to try and contribute to UT, but they hated me and didn't want the things I made even though many of their user base were excited to have me doing these things
16:43<virtual>how does your network block it, cews?
16:44<linbot>New news from community: Domain not valid warning when trying to add it to domains <>
16:45<cews>virtual: if you use pihole, run pihole -q -all
16:46<virtual>yeah, sounds like a safe bet :) I see mentioned in the article too
16:47<cews>The above will query - I can pastebin all subdomains etc if you wish
16:47<virtual>I was just looking at the image the guy posted
16:47<virtual>am not at home at the moment, and I don't have a way into my home network from outside at this time.
16:49<nate>cews: The "All" phones bit seems potentially by far incorrect, I can't find any details of this on my S9+
16:50<mrsideways>I use S9 for Ubuntu Touch, and S10+ with stock ROM for my regular phone
16:50<mrsideways>UT is basically used for my business line since I don't care if I miss business calls as everyone I care about being reached by has my personal number and my company has no public face
16:51<virtual>the tab s4 has that device care thing. kinda surprised it has to talk to the network. but also not surprised.
16:53<cews>nate: I agree, but it's helpful none the less
16:55<cews>Many duplicates
16:57<virtual>pretty sure I'd be good with a wildcard here :)
16:57<virtual>thank you, cews!
16:57<virtual>anyway, further comments on the reddits make it look like a less big deal.
16:57<virtual>still cloud for cloud sake is... sad.
16:58<cews>virtual: yep I would advise wildcard, just for research purposes
17:02<mrsideways>Does Linode plan to offer bigger GPU's, and if so, also offer NVlinked GPUs?
17:03<cews>Linode GPUs are NVIDIA Quadro RTX 6000 units
17:03<mrsideways>I would be able to make use of 3 linked RTX 8000's but a 6000 alone or even 8 not linked, are not useful as my work is so ridiculous that it requires custom built super computer
17:04<mrsideways>I am just wondering because sometimes our queue of work to be processed gets backlogged when I'm also doing my hobby project work, which requires half my data center in hardware built to order for "research" purposes because there exists no practical user intended uses for this stuff
17:04<mrsideways>like no one needs 36tb of ram, or 8 56 core 4ghz cpus, or 16 GPUs in 16-way nvlink... but I actually do
17:05<mrsideways>I have 3 of those insane servers in a cluster with 3 DGX-2 and a NFS with 64 petabyte of RAID6 backed storage
17:05<mrsideways>And that's just for my hobby... although I basically run my business purely to fund that hobby
17:06<mrsideways>When your hobby is the most advanced "impossible" task in all of computer science and math combined, you need to have a custom supercomputer
17:06<mrsideways>It's been 10 years and I'm still building the 3rd prototype, which I am hoping can be adapted as it is intended to be the final framework but with much more added
17:07<mrsideways>I have about 1.3 million lines of code and a cerebral cortext of nerual networks that has quadrillions of trainable parameters, and it evolves and adapts itself so it will grow until it can do literally everything
17:08<mrsideways>This is why I ask about cloud, for doing research on GPUs that are not meant for work I need for income
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18:18*LouWestin thinks mrsideways is either a mad scientist or working towards world domination. Possibly both.
18:20<dwfreed>mrsideways: for that, you're honestly better off buying the hardware
18:21<mrsideways>LouWestin, both
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18:22<mrsideways>I am literally insane, but also am a dedicated researcher in many fields. mostly rocket and space craft development, nuclear physics experiments, and math/programming, plus I do a lot of AI work
18:22<mrsideways>I have many other interests because I'm a polymath, but those 3 are the ones I am expert and actively research and develop things
18:23<mrsideways>I have a cold fusion reactor that i use to fuse tungsten rods into trinium and palladium so I can eventually have enough to build a breeder reactor, which if it works, would revolutionize nuclear power plant development and design
18:24<mrsideways>I have about 2.4 kilos of material saved up for the core, which I keep in a safe place... under my bed hahaha i'm gonna get cancer and die
18:24<mrsideways>I am a mad scientist, I declared myself one about 7 months ago after realizing how crazy I actually am
18:24<LouWestin>Yes! That’s awesome!
18:26<mrsideways>I have a reusable rocket that uses NO2 and O2 in a thruster design with a single stage booster that can reach 27km before deploying it's parachute and landing softly
18:27<LouWestin>The lines between genus, evil, and insanity run parallel and very close to each other.
18:27<mrsideways>it's my second one of the same design, first one exploded on second launch
18:27<dwfreed>LouWestin: genius*
18:27<mrsideways>I'm not technically a genius either, but many call me one
18:27<dwfreed>genus is how organisms are classified
18:28<mrsideways>Oh also I can't spell and suck at words because I only have finished grade 4 and then I just studied math and programming alone at home
18:37<LouWestin>As mrsideways and decreed point out My lacking of intelligence on the subject inspires me.
18:38*LouWestin feels giddy
18:45<mrsideways>LouWestin, do you have xmpp so i can chat with you when I'm free and not coding, I would love to share my interests
18:57<LouWestin>I just have my IRC bouncer
18:58<mrsideways>Well, I'll be on here sometimes, feel free to PM me if you want huge amounts of details on the things I do. talking about it in channel would be very disruptive to the channel and I can literally talk for weeks about it without running out of information to feed you. but not right now, tomorrow or anytime after tomorrow
19:09<virtual>I am not sure what channel this just turned into
19:09<virtual>it's a new UTC day though.
19:18<mrsideways>happy tuesdat virtual
19:18<LouWestin>Ok and yes it went into the topic like VPS Extreme! lol
19:22<millisa>I miss the manager.
19:22<mrsideways>I use VPS for small things usually, I never need a really powerful one, nanode's are fine for my uses, I'm running 2 right now an will be using a third soon
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19:28<virtual>yeah. I have a 4GB one, just because I'm too lazy to downsize. And I like the extra disk space which comes in handy occasoinally :P
19:28<virtual>ocassionaly. HOWEVER THAT WORD IS SPELLED.
19:29<dwfreed>2 c's, one s
19:29<virtual> I finally got it, thanks. :)
19:29<virtual>so I was right, except for the transposed keys, the first time?
19:29<dwfreed>io vs oi
19:29<virtual>shoulda stayed quiet
19:30<mrsideways>is there no way to shrink a resized linode node?
19:31<millisa>they can be resized down.
19:31<mrsideways>I mean, can you only upsize, downsize isn't possible, should be a simple but slow process to shrink the images filesystem
19:31<mrsideways>oh okay, I was going to say, that's an easy thing to do why not.. but it is so, so no worries
19:31<millisa>if you don't need the disk space when you size up, don't size your filesystem up. makes it easier to downsize it later.
19:31<mrsideways>I am loving the performance of these $5 nanodes
19:31<mrsideways>Can't you just attach a block storage device if you need more disk space?
19:32<millisa>you can. block storage isn't covered by the backup product and isn't necessarily as good io
19:32<mrsideways>seems to me it would make more sense to mount block storage devices to folders you want to store big data in
19:32<millisa>(it's plenty fast for most people's use)
19:32<millisa>if you do your linode's root filesystem on the block storage, resizes become very quick and easy
19:33<mrsideways>Okay, I don't use backups because I have my own servers at work and home that I back up to along with keeping important stuff on both laptop and desktop, and for good measure the critical stuff gets encrypted and put to a cloud storage service
19:33<millisa> if you are interested in it
19:33<mrsideways>I have a 64 petabyte HDD array for NFS... IBM sold it to me, they were happy to take my half million dollars and send a truck to deliver it
19:33<millisa>I'm a pope.
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19:34<FluffyFoxeh>mrsideways: What kind of drives do you use in that 64PB array?
19:34<mrsideways>FluffyFoxeh, what ever IBM put in the MASSIVE thing
19:34<FluffyFoxeh>Also, half million dollars? I thought you said you weren't rich
19:34<mrsideways>FluffyFoxeh, my business is, I'm not
19:34<mrsideways>I don't pay myself I focus on expansion
19:35<FluffyFoxeh>but you said the array was for hobbies
19:35<mrsideways>It is, a hobby that my business funds because it makes more sense for tax purposes and is technically used to take things from to develop products for sale
19:35<mrsideways>I only pay myself $1000 per month. so I'm not rich
19:36<mrsideways>but I could be if I was less concerned with making my company the next tech giant and wanted more nice things
19:36<FluffyFoxeh>What industry/what products do you sell?
19:36<mrsideways>also the hobby project, will make my business famous even though the intention is to GPL and fully release everything
19:37<mrsideways>Mostly AI/ML products based on my own techniques which are superior to most stuff you are used to seeing done with AI
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19:37<FluffyFoxeh>what kinds of things do they do?
19:38<mrsideways>Well, chat bots that don't act ridiculous and say things wrong or misunderstand things, chat bots with cognitive understanding using a small cerebral cortex system is our main income
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19:39<mrsideways>yeah, it's just a ML company that also develops other things, it's still a startup really, but it's proving very successful, which I don't understand because I have no idea what I'm doing usually and somehow it works out most of the time
19:39<FluffyFoxeh>got a demo of the chatbot?
19:39*millisa is a chatbot.
19:40<mrsideways>Bell Canada tech support chat bot, pornhub customer service email replies, I could log in and pretend to be one myself, but our bots can't do multi-user sessions where they talk with more than one person
19:40<mrsideways>I do know how to make a multiuser chat bot, but the hardware to host it would be too expensive to make it a reasonable product to market
19:41<mrsideways>The size of model needed for accurate and lasting short term memory is more than any single gpu or tpu can do
19:41<mrsideways>So, you need a DGX-2 to run the systems I make that are worth bragging about
19:42<mrsideways>When we finally release the AGI the fact that I operate my company with no public face won't stop us from getting too much work to handle
19:42<mrsideways>but this could be as much as 20 years from now, we're talking about the most complex CS task ever conceived
19:42<mrsideways>hoping it's only 10, but I can't predict the future or visit it
19:43<mrsideways>It would be nice if the current prototype in development somehow managed to be perfect and was ready for release and widespread deployment around the world
19:44<mrsideways>but I don't expect that to be true, because I'm working with ideas that I expand on and improve all the time so there will always be a next version until I've fully used every skill I have in every part of the project, and then possibly others may provide upgrades I didn't think of
19:44<mrsideways>I started my business purely to pay for my AGI work
19:45<FluffyFoxeh>I thought Bell got rid of their chat support. I haven't been able to find it when I've looked for it the last couple years
19:46<FluffyFoxeh>well, more like in the past 5 years
19:47<FluffyFoxeh>If they've just buried it on the website somewhere and you have a link to it, that'd actually be really good :p
19:51<FluffyFoxeh>nvm I found it, the buttons wren't showing up
19:51<FluffyFoxeh>but AFAIK their chat support is actual people
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19:58<FluffyFoxeh>mrsideways: is Bell Canada live chat now bots?
20:04<LouWestin>FluffyFoxeh one mustn’t ask an evil genius too many questions about how and where and why one part of the story doesn’t connect to the other part. His intelligence is light years beyond our feeble minds. ;-)
20:04<LouWestin>Besides, the less you know. The better. ;-)
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20:24<ssa_>hello team!
20:25<ssa_>hi neighbour
20:25<ssa_>so I've been troubleshooting an issue with twitter api.
20:26<ssa_>apparently their api rejects a lot of "follow" requests when calling from Linode IP (I've only tested Dallas)
20:26<ssa_>if I make the exact same request from my home, it works fine...
20:26<ssa_>and I've also tried it from perhaps 10 different IPs in Dallas today
20:27<millisa>it sounds like they don't want you doing that
20:27<ssa_>not that I spam follow or anything.
20:28<ssa_>what's surprising me is that perhaps they're blocking all/most ips here
20:28<ssa_>(only for their follow endpoint though)
20:30<LouWestin>Twitter’s api is blocking it or Linode’s system?
20:30<millisa>i know they have a lot of endpoints that have ratelimits that sit in the 15-ish request ranges
20:30<LouWestin>Ok Thought so.
20:30<ssa_>and my numbers aren't unusually high either. not to mention, these are all follows made by individual end users who're using my service to make follows
20:31<ssa_>yeah, its not their standard rate limits though. it wouldn't let me follow from an account that hasn't been used in a few days either (but the same request with all the same tokens works from my home)
20:33<ssa_>thought someone might know if it's a known fact... or perhaps I should continue troubleshooting
20:34*ssa_ spins up a digitalocean droplet to try
20:35<LouWestin>Well, it’s probably not an IP issue.
20:35<millisa>how it is rejecting it? is it not responding at all or is it giving a rate limit exceeded type message?
20:35<ssa_>it does give a json error response
20:36<ssa_>{"errors":[{"code":161,"message":"You are unable to follow more people at this time. Learn more \u003Ca href='http:\/\/\/articles\/66885-i-can-t-follow-people-follow-limits'\u003Ehere\u003C\/a\u003E."}]}
20:36<LouWestin>Can you paste bin it?
20:36<ssa_>I understand it links to the article about user getting rate limited etc, but I really believe that's not what's happening
20:37<LouWestin>Is it somehow possibly being used by others?
20:38<ssa_>what do you mean
20:38<ssa_>I make follow calls on behalf of my users..
20:39<LouWestin>Maybe it’s due to thier rate limit? Don’t think it’s anything networking related
20:40<LouWestin>Or thier system thinks it a spam bot
20:41<ssa_>there are a few different kinds of rate limits they have...
20:42<ssa_>a) app specific rate limit – an app can only make 1000 follow requests across all its users (irrespective of user limits) UNLESS the app has "elevated access"
20:42<ssa_>b) user specific rate limit – a user may only make 400 requests
20:42<ssa_>c) elevated app rate limit – there's none; we have this elevated access from twitter. since quite a while
20:43<ssa_>(limits per 24 hour)
20:43<ssa_>and none of them apply in the case I'm getting error
20:43<ssa_>it just won't let me follow from Dallas ip so far
20:44<ssa_>I'm going to try other regions and DigitalOcean as well just to make sure I'm not misdirected
20:46<ssa_>oddly enough it doesn't work from Linode UK either. same error.
20:46<ssa_>same ditto request using the same api client works from my home isp (India)
20:52<ssa_>it works through BLR droplet.
20:56*LouWestin hisses at DO
21:03<ssa_>didn't work at: Linode Dallas, Canada, UK, India.
21:03<ssa_>worked at: DO India, DO San Francisco
21:03<ssa_>something's up.
21:04<LouWestin>Something funny going on.
21:05<ssa_>if you have a twitter dev account, you can try the twurl gem yourself
21:05<ssa_>twurl --consumer-key YOUR_APP_CONSUMER_KEY --consumer-secret SECRET -a USER_ACCESS_TOKEN -S ACCESS_TOKEN_SECRET -X POST "/1.1/friendships/create.json?user_id=14830193&include_entities=true&skip_status=false"
21:06<ssa_>I also wonder if they're only target blocking follows from my consumer key in those datacenters.
21:06<LouWestin>I don’t, but it raises a good question
21:10<ssa_>was secretly also hoping to score a follow from you :p
21:11<ssa_>well, I'm going to have to proxy my calls through a droplet until I figure this out with twitter dev support
21:15<mrsideways>does linode store data related to the use and traffic of my nodes?
21:16<mrsideways>I need to do something that can never be discovered, and I need to communicate using a system I can't be tracked on, and I'm under DPS on cell and home internet
21:16<mrsideways>I need to do something that won't be logged or monitored
21:17<mrsideways>It's not something that I will be charged with a crime for, but it must be completely secret and never discovered by people who will want to discover it and use every available way to do so
21:19<millisa>Their privacy policies are at . If you are under dps, run more entry level instances and raids with pickup groups.
21:19<LouWestin>ssa_: lol I’m on Twitter but under a different alias. ;-)
21:20<mrsideways>I have never used twitter, never even clicked a twitter link
21:20<mrsideways>I do use facebook but only to talk to parrot groups and people with parrots about parrots
21:21<mrsideways>I use facebook exclusively to talk about parrots, which I do every day many times
21:21<LouWestin>mrsideways you’ll probably have to make some room in your underground bunker for another server to do whatever secret thing you want to do.
21:22<mrsideways>I will do it in person instead of contacting the required people IRL
21:23<mrsideways>my wifes 12 you sister who lives with us was raped and the cop broke the rules by telling who he is, showing me his mug shot, and giving me all his info, then told me I didn't get it from him and to not tell him what I planned to do
21:23-!-eyepulp [~eyepulp@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:23<mrsideways>Like this literally just happened within the past hour and we're still at the hospital surrounded by cops who are dealing with it, the put 24 of the 28 cruisers in our town on patrol and had another town send their helocopter to find him, he was arrested within 40 minutes of the rape
21:24<mrsideways>This is probably the most serious thing I've ever had to deal with in my life
21:24<LouWestin>I’m not even sure if even any internet connection is entirely immune to snooping
21:24<LouWestin>Or the possibility of it
21:24<mrsideways>I have a method, which I don't share but do sell
21:24<ssa_>not enough parrots in the story though
21:25<millisa>rfc2549 is probably the right way to approach it then
21:25<millisa>it can likely be adapted appropriately
21:26<LouWestin>End to end encryption, but there’s always the possibility of some exploit blowing your cover
21:26<mrsideways>it's resistant to all known methods of attacking routing networks, and there is nothing that can break it aside from if I decided to invent a new one, which I might even fail to do because I designed it too well, but it takes a GV100 and 1GB/s bandwidth both up and down, to support a 200 node network, it's impossible to scale to replace any existing darknet, it's for small networks and uses insane resources
21:26<mrsideways>I can explain how it works but don't want to keep flooding the channel with updated on everything i do so pm if you're a security guy and interested in how it works
21:29<mrsideways>I don't share it because I sell it to potential users. I did FOSS for a very long time, then one day I said why am I sitting on disability collecting money for nothing when every one of my interests is capable of being marketed in a profitable way... and I went from being 25k in debt to having millions of dollars in a little over 5 years of sticking to that plan
21:29<mrsideways>But, i don't own it, my LLC does
21:29<mrsideways>I could pay myself as much as I want but I am dedicated to the business more than my own personal needs
21:30<mrsideways>I might start a website for our company, we are looking to stop hiding in the shadows, and i would host it on linode for sure
21:30<chesty>for a second I thought I was in #creativewriting
21:31<mrsideways>Nope, just a crazy person who has declared himself a mad scientist and has too much brain damage from MMA to think straight and stay on topic
21:31<mrsideways>I'm a crazy person, I have no control over how I act or talk or when/where I do so
21:32<mrsideways>But, I do get treatment as much as can be obtained to stay stable enough to do things that are good and valid and not delusional plans that I can't ever do
21:32<mrsideways>I need to take some valium and rest... that's part of my treatment I just mentioned, and will calm me down so I chat less
21:35<linbot>New news from community: root@localhost not <>
21:37<mrsideways>That person should use ssh in cygwin or WSL if on Windows, or plain GNU/Linux openssh server. Putty is a sloppy alternative that is inferior to openssh server which can be used in WSL or cygwin or any other gnu environment system for windows
21:39<dwfreed>PuTTY works just fine for people who don't wish to deal with Cygwin or WSL
21:40<mrsideways>I don't use either, I use linux for everything I require ssl for... also why not use an ssh rsa 4096 key pair for authentication and disable password authentication completely for higher security
21:41<mrsideways>first thing I do when I set up a new vps or server or headless system, is push my ssh public key to it, and disable password auth
21:41<mrsideways>It's the first thing I do with every remotely accessible linux install
21:41<dwfreed>Not everybody is aware that's a thing
21:41<mrsideways>dwfreed, that's why I'm saying it, if I thought everyone knew I wouldn't mention it
21:42<mrsideways>I am trying to inform so people can learn and do better in the future, but I can't use my browser right now to respond to their ticket on the forum
21:42<dwfreed>so then don't phrase it as "why not do X instead of Y?"
21:42<dwfreed>because the correct answer to that question is "I didn't know X was a thing"
21:42<mrsideways>dwfreed, I'm not good at using language like a normal person, that was an unintentional method of explaining it
21:43<mrsideways>when you have a grade 4 education and then quit school and just messed with computers and math... I mean I have no english education beyond grade 4
21:44<mrsideways>it's becoming really problematic lately, since I no longer use english on a regular basis as my wife and sister in law who both live with me, and our babies future language is Farsi
21:45<mrsideways>I'm going to create a web page about my parrots, a little Joomla Blog that I post about my birds on
21:45<mrsideways>gonna set that up on my nanode and register a domain
21:45<mrsideways>does Linode do domain management and renewal like some other providers?
21:46<mrsideways>okay, that's fine I can work around that
21:46<dwfreed>they have authoritative DNS, but that's it
21:46<dwfreed>Why Persian?
21:46<mrsideways>Because my wife is a refuge who came 3 years ago and can't learn english because she is learning disabled, and her sister just moved her from Iran a little under 2 months ago and has no english at all
21:46<mrsideways>We also want our 7 week old daughter to speak Farsi
21:47<mrsideways>Our town is almost 40% Persion immigrants, so it's possible to live and go out and do everything you need without learning english
21:48<mrsideways>I know english, farsi, russian, and mandarin, covering all the major used languages in this town, where I am as a white person part of a very small minority
21:49<mrsideways>I can only read and write english though, the others spoken only, but I'm losing my english reading and writing skills because I use them very little and only in simple ways
21:49<LouWestin>I switched away from the password login to public/private keys a while back.
21:49<mrsideways>did you make sure to disable password auth after uploading your key?
21:49<LouWestin>But of course!
21:50<mrsideways>damn it I forgot my linode password... Now I have to recover it
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21:50<LouWestin>Well Once I tested that it worked lol
21:50<mrsideways>Yeah, obviously that would be a required step to reduce problems requiring respinning a new node
21:50<mrsideways>I have forgot to test before and locked myself out, anyone can make that mistake
21:51<LouWestin>In the beginning stages yes. lol
21:51<LouWestin>You don’t use a password manager like Keepass?
21:51<mrsideways>I have chromium key manager, but I forgot I was using firefox because I am doing stuff with tor and i2p which I use firefox for
21:52<LouWestin>And yes I make silly mistakes all the time after doing this stuff a hundred times lol
21:52<LouWestin>I like Bitwarden and Keepass 2 for backups
21:52<mrsideways>so I thought the key database got wiped somehow because I'm too stupid sometimes to use the right browser, which occasionally leads to leaking data, but I have nothing on any internet connected computer that I would be worried about leaking
21:53<mrsideways>Like, I don't do anything illegal on my computer ever, aside from developing products for use in criminal activities, but I offset that by developing products for use by law enforcement
21:53<mrsideways>I do more work for the law than to avoid it, but I don't really turn down a profitable marketable idea that is easy to do and worth a good amount when sold
21:53<dwfreed>ah yes, because playing both sides definitely keeps you out of jail
21:53<LouWestin>There’s also... Yubico recommended by dwfreed
21:54<dwfreed>LouWestin: it's not really a password manager; it can do TOTP, and spit out a static password, but it doesn't store passwords like a password manager
21:54<LouWestin>I might have to call you either Bruce Wayne or Batman
21:54<mrsideways>You should call me Will O
21:55<mrsideways>or Rick Sanchez if your an R&M fan
21:55<mrsideways>also, you can call me insane any time you want
21:55<LouWestin>Oh that’s right....durr we we’re talking about TOTP a few days ago
21:55<mrsideways>I don't know what totp is
21:55<mrsideways>is it something I knew when discussed?
21:55<LouWestin>The google authentication thing
21:56<LouWestin>Ah 2 factor authentication
21:56<mrsideways>Oh, I use googles phone based 2 stage auth, everything I do is tied to google in my personal life
21:56<mrsideways>Yeah, I get a popup on my phone with a button to accept and a button to decline, so no one can get in without me seeing them try and stopping them, unless they have some new exploit that isn't public or known
21:56<LouWestin>Well Google has a time based app, but there’s some better alternatives
21:57<mrsideways>Yeah, I've toyed with that app, but it's not usable when I switch to Ubuntu Touch, which >I dual boot with android 10 using a custom boot system
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21:58<LouWestin>Bitwarden has it if you subscribe and there’s also Authy
21:58<mrsideways>wow, I need to upgrade my nanode to a bigger package
21:58<mrsideways>My nanode is averaging 90% CPU usage and using more than half the RAM
21:58<LouWestin>Keepass has plugins to do it too, but ehh...
21:58<mrsideways>for i2p... it's bogged down by network contributions and garlic routing encryption/decryption
21:58<mrsideways>I'll just upgrade to something nicer
21:59<mrsideways>you get what you pay for, am i right?
21:59<LouWestin>Maybe the $20 plan?
21:59<mrsideways>I dunno, sure
21:59<LouWestin>Think that’s 2Core 8GB ram
22:00<mrsideways>I'll look at the plans I can resize this node to
22:00<millisa>all of them.
22:00<LouWestin>^what he said
22:00<mrsideways>yeah, gonna go with the $20 one
22:01<mrsideways>upgrading in progress
22:02<mrsideways>the $40 plan and $20 plan need a plan in between them with 3 core and 3-4gb ram me thinks, but that's just for what I am looking for, and I can't speak for other customers
22:02<millisa>there's a dedicated cpu plan between them
22:03<mrsideways>I don't need a dedicated CPU plan, I'm just using i2p for the irc on it, because cool people show up there and interesting conversations happen
22:03<tecuane>"b-but i make software for the lawful people too!"
22:03<tecuane>[ laughs in malwaretech ]
22:04<mrsideways>tecuane, sure, a business man doesn't let his morals impact profit
22:04<dwfreed>the point is that the malwaretech guy got arrested for previous malware he produced
22:04<tecuane>varying, but only an imbecile flaunts laws that they cant dodge via obscuring the facts or afford to lobby against
22:04<mrsideways>dwfreed, I don't make malware, ever
22:05<mrsideways>I do collect it, but never use it unless on a test machine
22:05<dwfreed>even though at the time of his arrest, he'd gone completely white hat
22:05<mrsideways>That's shitty for him
22:05<mrsideways>I went black to white the no hat
22:05<millisa>all wizard hat. all robes. all the time.
22:05<tecuane>this sounds like a conversation i watch play out in the introduction to infosec groups all the time, people playing up how much they know to seem 'cool'
22:06<tecuane>you're surrounded by career sysadmins and literal kernel developers, nobody is capable of being impressed
22:11<FluffyFoxeh>being a business man isn't an excuse to be shitty. what are you, a Ferengi?
22:11<virtual>tecuane: ;)
22:11<tecuane>virtual: suh
22:13<FluffyFoxeh>time to bulldoze the amazon rainforest. too bad about the parrots, eh? oh well, muh profits
22:13<virtual>too bad about the rain too
22:13<virtual>who needs plants anyway.
22:13<tecuane>virtual: what'd you tag me for fam
22:14<millisa>Nature decays, but latinum lasts forever.
22:14<FluffyFoxeh>!point millisa
22:14<linbot>FluffyFoxeh: Point given to millisa. (125)
22:14<virtual>I was amused at your comment, and thinking similar thoughts :-)
22:14<tecuane>o lol
22:15<millisa>now I don't know if I can finish this doogie howser marathon...
22:15<FluffyFoxeh>(I said parrots because it sounds like mrsideways is a fan of parrots, as am I :p)
22:16<LouWestin>The only folks that think i'm cool is the junior high students because I don't scream and yell like them like other teachers do. lol
22:16<LouWestin>or certain teachers
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22:17<LouWestin>no point in my trying to impress anyone when I just run a few minior projects
22:18<LouWestin>FluffyFoxeh Every villian has his favorite. ;-)
22:18<virtual>I need a lair first
22:19<millisa>a command center?
22:19<virtual>doesn't sound as cool
22:19<FluffyFoxeh>I don't need to impress anyone. My merits can stand on their own
22:19<FluffyFoxeh>(now please be impressed at my humility. You may now applaud)
22:21<LouWestin>I find the nick FluffyFoxeh impressive alone
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22:31<FluffyFoxeh>It's a bit silly, but I guess I'm sometimes a silly person
22:32<LouWestin>I wear Crocs everyday to work so there's that
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23:03<mrsideways>I now have double cpu usage, and tripple the ram usage by resizing to $10 one.
23:04<LouWestin>Ok so you upsized, then downsized?
23:04<mrsideways>I'm going to resize to an even better one so I can become a floodfill and collect data to subvert peoples anonymity, and encryption breakage potential
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23:05<mrsideways>yeah... I saw the plans
23:06<mrsideways>might go to dedicated CPU, do those plans have more data capability?
23:06<LouWestin>I pulled it up for myself
23:06<LouWestin>too lazy to click a few more times lol
23:06<mrsideways>good job utilizing a bot. I love when people have bots that do stuff
23:06<mrsideways>bots are cool
23:07<LouWestin>dedicated starts at 4GB ram, 4TB transfer, but all your linodes are pooled together in terms of data transfer
23:08<LouWestin>80GB hdd, $30 a month
23:08<millisa>at the 16gb level, the dedicated plans get more cores than their standard counterparts.
23:08<LouWestin>Basically the same stats as the $20 plan
23:08<mrsideways>well, that's not very much for a machine learning model and data set
23:09<FluffyFoxeh>I think you can figure it out.
23:09<FluffyFoxeh>Maybe start by reading the entire page
23:10<mrsideways>Well, I don't plan to do ML on linode at all, I just think that since linode is trying to sell compute VMs with CUDA cards, they should offer storage both slow and fast in bigger quantities
23:11<LouWestin>I'm not sure if the cloud storage is conventional drives or SSDs?
23:11<millisa>"Linode Block Storage is powered by a combination of large capacity HDDs and ultra-fast NVMe drives, offering a balance between price, performance, and capacity."
23:12<LouWestin>Guess I should've read the page first lol
23:12<LouWestin>I'd presume in the next few years at most they'll switch over to all SSD
23:14<millisa>is the dude on wearing very long shorts, or very short pants? or are those golf knickers?
23:14<mrsideways>I just see that linode is clearly interested in the GPU market but almost all of the GPU cloud users I have surveyed through various channels everyone prefers same as I do, dedicated NVMe at least 1 tb... It's something that could make ML developers, students, companies and schools interesting in considering linode as their cloud for hourly billed GPU vm
23:14<FluffyFoxeh>mrsideways: sounds like you need another solution then
23:14<LouWestin>millisa I'd say long shorts
23:15<jkwood>Hmmm... maybe not.
23:15<virtual>oh, you were talking about the clothing.
23:15<virtual>I thought it was word association time
23:15<mrsideways>I have a solution, I was just saying linode should offer that for people who don't have tons of cash to buy their own hardware
23:15<mrsideways>like, ML people would be more likely to switch to linode if they offered more of the features ML people usually prefer
23:15<FluffyFoxeh>well Linode has to pay for the hardware too so the price will reflect what that costs...
23:16<LouWestin>If a ops is on, that might be a good one to throw in the suggustion bin
23:16<virtual>I have a feeling that Linode will be getting feedback from their customers as to what's missing :)
23:16<mrsideways>Yeah, that's why you charge large amounts of money for cloud computing usage
23:17<jkwood>virtual: I was testing a theory, which didn't pan out (this time.)
23:18<mrsideways>I test theories constantly, with every variation possible until all are passed or one is perfect
23:18<virtual>that's ... nice
23:19<virtual>what if the first one is the perfect one?
23:19<virtual>you'd have to do at least one more variation to check, and, then you'd be wondering if that one could be improved.
23:19<mrsideways>Well, then then use it. if there is 0% loss there is no reason to consider another solution
23:20<mrsideways>sometimes I develop something from a theory I came up with, and the first time I try to make it, but that's rare
23:20<mrsideways>usually I have to conduct experimental computing tasks with a broad range of variable combination predictions to discovery the best way
23:21<mrsideways>I have done a lot of things by just spending all my time experimenting with every idea possible in an amount of completeness which is resonable to cover
23:22<virtual>but then I'd try a 4th one, and a 5th one. In the interest of making sure I got everything
23:22<virtual>'if I eat a biscuit starting from the northeast corner, does it taste better than another corner?'
23:23<virtual>right, time to head to the kitchen and pick up about 400 biscuits.
23:23<mrsideways>Lol, I meant related to ML/AGI which is my current biggest interest and work
23:23<mrsideways>I like to invent new better ways to do things, or ways to solve problems which haven't been solved before
23:24<mrsideways>I love being a researcher, conducting endless experiments which were mostly waiting long periods of time while tons of computing is done and just playing around keeping bu
23:24<FluffyFoxeh>What's your company called?
23:25<mrsideways>Section 9 Research Group. you won't find us anywhere, because we have no public fac
23:26<FluffyFoxeh>No website? No servers? No corporate registration?
23:26<mrsideways>I have but we have no website
23:26<virtual>FluffyFoxeh: well, that would count as a public face.
23:26<tecuane>that was easy
23:26<mrsideways>We have an LLC number which I don't have handy
23:26<LouWestin>Here's what ya gotta do mrsideways run something off linode like a web server or whatever and then do the expensive stuff computing stuff in the secret lair
23:26<virtual>I'm gonna register all the other section9s
23:26<mrsideways>we are a numbered corporation
23:26<virtual>and sell them back to mrsideways for $1 more. I'll be a hundredaire!
23:27<mrsideways>LouWestin, I am planning to start a blog about my parrots, using joomla
23:27<mrsideways>on a linode vps
23:27<mrsideways>I have, and my bird Taco goes nuts for mille
23:27<mrsideways>my key that finishes that word isn't working
23:28<LouWestin>There ya go!
23:28<mrsideways>Studpid typing, but I can't use voice to text because I need to stay very quiet because my wife is sleeping beside me
23:28<LouWestin>Personally I found Joomla a pain to setup and run, but your millage might vary
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23:29<LouWestin>I ran into some problem, but can't remember now what it was. I've stuck with Wordpress
23:29<mrsideways>I made a hexchat extension in python that uses fully ready libraries for voice typing and text to speech, and it took about 80 lines of python to use voices over IRC and talk as if we are verbally interaction
23:29<mrsideways>It's really amazing how easy and already almost perfect for the purpose everything was
23:29<tecuane>made a znc extension that allows you to fax messages to an irc channel a while ago
23:29<tecuane>the ultimate form of communication
23:29<mrsideways>fax messages?
23:29<tecuane>you send a fax
23:29<mrsideways>We have a fax machine
23:30<tecuane>callback to a handler running on znc box
23:30<mrsideways>We use it to invoice customers
23:30<mrsideways>oh, I don't get it
23:30<tecuane>i didnt know canadians
23:30<tecuane>still used fax
23:30<mrsideways>whatever I am baked
23:30<millisa>linode has a fax. you have a fax. you both have fax.
23:31<virtual>we... all have a fax?
23:31<LouWestin>I might signup for a digital faxing servicing again. Why not right?
23:31<mrsideways>We have a fax machine and I often use it to send invoice to customer
23:32<jkwood>I do not have a fax. I demand the government step in and correct this gross inequality this instant.
23:32<mrsideways>Most companies who are large enough to have a corporate office have a fax machine in that office
23:32<virtual>does your customer live in the 1990s, mrsideways?
23:33<mrsideways>No, but people use fax machines all the time, I personally hate that it literally wastes paper when it could display the content on a screen, wait I just realized you've always been able to do that
23:33<mrsideways>Like, modem in pc, as fax machine, has been possibles since the DOS 5 days, maybe earlier but DOS 5 was my first OS on my first computer
23:33<LouWestin>Fax is still popular
23:33<mrsideways>Yeah it is
23:34<mrsideways>I don't think it's worth using instead of computers over the internet to send things but lots of people use it so I like to be able to do things the way they have set up to allow
23:34<virtual>I know I got asked to fax something when I bought my house a couple of years ago, but I asked if I could email in stead 'umm, okay, sure'.
23:35<virtual>but that's about it in the last ... 5 or more years
23:39<FluffyFoxeh>mrsideways: LLCs are a USA thing, fwiw
23:46<virtual>what's the equivalent in Canada?
23:47<FluffyFoxeh>I'm not sure
23:47<FluffyFoxeh>But "LLC" is most definitely US-specific
23:47<millisa>(corporation, according to that; at least from the liability standpoint. cra treats canadian held us llc's as corps)
23:48<virtual>I know the UK relatively recently got LLCs too.
23:48<virtual>it's weird how everyone started using north american titles for people too - e.g. CEO vs Managing Director. CTO vs Technical Director, etc.
23:49<tecuane>Vice President of nothing important
23:49<virtual>Can't forget the VPs
23:58<mrsideways>FluffyFoxeh, yeah, the company is operating out of america, because it's more advantages for the very reason I hate america... like corporations get so many breaks and exemptions from laws and lower taxes in america, I don't agree with that but it makes more sense to operate out of Canada physically while being a country of registration of USA
23:58<mrsideways>I don't really know, I pay people to figure that shit out for me
23:59<mrsideways>Like most of the companies profit comes from people I employ using a combination of their academic background and me kind of micromanaging by coming up with solutions to the problem using the same technique which I have experimented with using hundreds of test runs and just know by intuition that it will be better
---Logclosed Tue Feb 04 00:00:41 2020