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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2002-11-11

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04:08<blinx>good morning
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12:31<mdz>Chutt: 15 downloads of the .deb so far, excluding my own tests
12:32<Chutt>not bad at all
12:32<Chutt>thanks =)
12:33<mdz>I backported the xmltv stuff to woody and put those packages up at the same place
12:33<mdz>since woody has perl 5.6
12:33<mdz>I haven't actually heard feedback from anyone who has installed the package, though
12:34<mdz>hopefully they're all busy enjoying mythtv :-)
12:34<Chutt>i've barely gotten any feedback from the 0.7 release either =)
12:34<mdz>likewise there
12:34<Chutt>but, that's fairly normal
12:34<Chutt>unless stuff is broken, people don't tend to speak up
12:35<Chutt>got the g200 to record and playback hardware assisted mjpeg last night =)
12:35<Chutt>but i can't seem to do both at the same time
12:35<Chutt>though i can play stuff back using Xv while recording
12:36<Chutt>so that's a plus, at least
12:36<Chutt>picture quality is great, though the files are _huge_ =)
12:44<vektor>so, it's interlaced in and out?
12:45<Chutt>seems to be
12:45<Chutt>i really haven't looked at it much
12:46<Chutt>was seeing nasty video corruption on playback
12:46<Chutt>until i realized that the output stuff only works right in 16bpp mode
12:46<Chutt>and i haven't messed w/ the tv out yet
12:50<Chutt>once i got playback working right last night, it was really late =)
12:54<Chutt>it'll probably end up being some hardware limitation, no simultaneous encode and decode
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12:57<vektor>Chutt: making mythtv on it useless
12:57<Chutt>well, less useful
12:57<Chutt>at least
12:58<Chutt>software decoding's still possible
13:08<mdz>oh, it does hardware decode as well as encode?
13:08<Chutt>like, 0 cpu usage for each
13:16<Universe>new card out?
13:16<Chutt>this is the g200 that that guy from the list sent me
13:16<Universe>ahh... nice card?
13:17<Chutt>just got it working late last night
13:17<Chutt>so i don't really know yet
13:17<mdz>pricewatch has one for $45
13:17<mdz>that is a lot less than I spent on the card that I have
13:17<Universe>that would be worth it for a hardware encoder decorder
13:18<Chutt>is what it is
13:18<mdz>Universe: we're talking about mjpeg, though
13:19<mdz>I wonder if anyone has worked out a transcoder for MJPEG->MPEG-4 which doesn't just recompress
13:19<Chutt>and it probably only does hardware one way at a time
13:19<Chutt>so it's not _that_ useful
13:19<mdz>just encoding is way useful
13:19<mdz>decoding in software is fast
13:20<Chutt>well, mplayer's taking > 100% cpu to decode these files
13:20<Chutt>on this p3-550
13:20<mdz>I wonder why
13:21<mdz>does the card have a high-quality and a low-quality mode?
13:21<Chutt>no idea
13:21<mdz>was looking at this:
13:21<mdz>which tests the G400 TV
13:25<mdz>interestingly enough, their CPU benchmarks show about 30% utilization on a P3-550
13:26<mdz>for playback
13:26<Chutt>well, top shows about 3% for me
13:26<mdz>and about 80% for capture
13:26<Chutt>when i'm using the hardware stuff for both playback and capture
14:02<Chutt>someone just emailed me and asked if i was planning on showing the current program information overlaid on the tv image
14:03<zytta>cluebie alert
14:03<Chutt>and he can help with that!
14:03<Chutt>he offered
14:05<zytta>so is MythTV in gentoo yet?
14:05<zytta>I saw something on the list, didn't have e time to read.
14:05<Chutt>i dunno
14:05<zytta>I can emerge it now, but no time fo rthe list.
14:08<Chutt>hey, neat, i got my first email asking why i used qt instead of gtk
14:09<mdz>why did you use C++ instead of awk?
14:12<Universe>it isn't as far as I know
14:12<Universe>ebuild for mythtv
14:12<Universe>I think someone was trying to create one tho
14:14<zytta>I've been with mythtv since day #1
14:14<zytta>I haven't helped in any way, go me :D
14:19<mdz>welcome to mythtv-dev, also known as gentoo-user-support
14:20<mdz>oh lord, this guy has a VIA C3
14:21<mdz>which claims to be a 686 but has no MMX
14:21<mdz>among other brokenness
14:22<Chutt>i should just add it to the faq
14:22<Chutt>) Why do I get 'Illegal Instruction' when I try to run anything?
14:22<Chutt>- Your CPU is crap, and won't run things.
14:23<Chutt>Mr. Sibble is getting annoying.
14:24<Chutt>i need to post my thoughts on feature requests to the list sometime
14:24<Chutt>ie, feature request with no patch == ignored
14:27<mdz>now that should go in the FAQ
14:33<zytta>Chutt: you've talked about that for some time now. :P
14:33<zytta>I want you to add Tetris to MythTV (no need for MythGame or whatever :)
14:33<Universe>I want you to make it so I can replace my Tivo HD and use MythTV with it!
14:36<Universe>you were suppose to laugh..
14:36<zytta>he did
14:36<Chutt>sorry =)
14:36<zytta>He is crying on the outside.
14:36<Universe>I wondre if he has gotten that one before
14:37<Universe>oohh... I am a first at something at least
14:37<Chutt>some other guy asked for cvs write access so he could commit a couple changes he made
14:38<Chutt>first time he's emailed me
14:38<zytta>"hey so, let me have write access. ok? thanks for helping out"
14:38<Chutt>didn't send a patch, or much of a description of what he changed
14:38<zytta>maybe he was special, but you didn't realize it.
14:38<Universe>ok... Let me trash your CVS, thanks, bye
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15:49<mdz>a hint for getting the most out of mailing list discussions
15:49<mdz>if your question is not answered within an hour (or you can't be bothered to check), ask your question again with slightly different wording by posting another message
15:49<Chutt>of course
15:50<mdz>this will usually encourage other subscribers to help
15:50<mdz>if it does not, threaten to unsubscribe and quit using the software
15:50<mdz>that always works
15:51<Chutt>'i was going to help out with the development, but now i'm not so sure'
15:53<mdz>'if you won't show me how to compile mythtv, I won't contribute any code'
16:01<Chutt>oh, his problem could also be that the oss driver for his soundcard doesn't do full-duplex properly and hangs on the 2nd attempt to open the dsp device
16:03<Chutt>but someone already suggested using alsa, so
16:03<mdz>yeah, I had thought of that
16:03<mdz>but it doesn't sound like ALSA is a viable option
16:04<mdz>it might be nice if myth shipped with a tiny sample recording that people could try to play back before they jump into live TV
16:04<Universe>show me how to run setup and I will code for you
16:04<Universe>basic code is ok, right?
16:05<Chutt>mdz, all that'd catch would be the people that don't have a card that does xv
16:06<mdz>Chutt: and those who have not configured their sound card
16:06<Universe>Chutt... just start putting up "known hardware that works with mythtv IF configured correctly"
16:06<Chutt>yeah, but most people can play sound
16:06<mdz>Chutt: and those who have not set up the database
16:06<mdz>though I guess it wouldn't even start without that
16:06<mdz>the solution is to charge an hourly rate for mythtv support
16:07<Universe>that would work too
16:07<mdz>even better
16:07<mdz>find a support company who is willing to support mythtv development in exchnage for referrals :-P
16:07<mdz>then send everyone with questions to them
16:08<Chutt>yeah, that's highly likely
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16:19<brunes>hey, heres a question... would the cache difference between a duron and an athlon (same clock speed0 really make a difference with mythtv?
16:19<brunes>it would eh
16:37<brunes>what are the codec settings mythtv users to encode with? liek what BPS for video and audio (mpeg4). I want ot try some benchmarking
16:54<Chutt>i use the default settings
16:54<Chutt>aside from mpeg4 instead of rtjpeg
16:54<Chutt>kinda why they're the default =)
16:54<brunes>but I want to emulate the CPU load using mencoder
16:54<brunes>to see if my cpu could take 2 encoding + 1 decoding at once
16:55<brunes>if it can ill get another tv tuner
16:55<Chutt>2+ GHz
16:55<brunes>XP 1800 couldnt do it?
16:55<Chutt>if you wanted to do 352x240 or something, sure
16:56<brunes>no.. 640x480 at least
16:56<Chutt>then, no, of course it won't.
16:56<Chutt>not with mpeg4, at least.
16:56<brunes>wel, I can run two divx4 encodings at 640x480 and my comp is still useable
16:57<brunes>so I wasnt sure how much easier this rtjpeg is on the cpu
16:57<Chutt>'useable' doesn't mean anything.
16:57<brunes>well, no lag
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16:57<Chutt>again, that really doesn't mean anything.
16:58<brunes>is rtjpeg alot easier on the cpu?
16:58<Chutt>why don't you try it and see?
16:58<brunes>I cant get mythtv to run two encoding sessions when I only have one card
16:58<brunes>I am trying to *simulate* the loa dusing mencoder
16:59<Chutt>you can't multiply the load of a single recording by two and add the load of playback?
16:59<brunes>the load of a single one is only 23%
16:59<brunes>so I dont think its accurate
17:00<Chutt>so add that to the load when watching live tv.
17:00<brunes>root 28775 21.8 9.2 50496 23748 pts/4 R 17:59 0:02 mythtv
17:00<brunes>root 28776 0.1 9.2 50496 23748 pts/4 S 17:59 0:00 mythtv
17:00<brunes>root 28777 8.4 9.2 50496 23748 pts/4 R 17:59 0:00 mythtv
17:00<brunes>I dont think thats an accurate guage
17:01<brunes>that would mean I coudl run 3 encoding sessions and 1 decoding!
17:01<brunes>I *dont* think that's right
17:01<vektor>well, maybe you're forgetting that decoding and encoding is limited by the input or output framerate?
17:02<vektor>so, if you have multiple capture cards, some of the cadence created by that will offset your numbers alot...
17:02<vektor>I suspect you're coming to wrong conclusions because of that.
17:02<vektor>But, I'm also making theoretical assumptions, I don't have multiple cards.
17:03<brunes>would 640x480 use 2x the cpu of 320x240?
17:03* zyttaorders a TiVO
17:04<brunes>tivo uses mpeg2 right
17:04<brunes>how come theres no mpeg2 option in myth?
17:04<zytta>go code it.
17:05<Chutt>too bad that all software mpeg2 encoders are dirt slow.
17:07<Chutt>i wish mailman had a way to moderate specific people
17:07<brunes>ok, this would be a simple question I think. How much space / half hour does the rtjpeg codec use with its default settings?
17:07<Chutt>why don't you try it and see.
17:07<Universe>tivo does hardware encoding, right?
17:08<Chutt>you're just as capable of testing that out as anyone else is.
17:08<Chutt>universe, yeah
17:08<brunes>well assume someone lready knows
17:08<Universe>ahh.. thought so
17:16<vektor>people assume that alot :)
17:17<Universe>just play with the settings until you like the quality and then buy a new HD if your current one is too small..
17:17<Chutt>i'm really tempted to make this jeremy oddo guy have all his posts moderated
17:17<Chutt>more work for me, but less crap on the list
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17:51<Universe>mythtv's perm quote
17:51<Universe>Sure, send in a patch.
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17:53<Chutt>i rather like the guy who think you can't encode mpeg4 in real time
17:54<Universe>I was just reading that
18:05<brunes>im playing with myth in dual tune rmode... if you're watching tv, and a program is scheduled ot be recorded ona diff channel, does myth automagiclly use the second tuner to record it, and disable the PIP functionality?
18:10<brunes>hrm doesnt seem to
18:11<brunes>If I have an in progress recording and choose "Watch TV" it just says that ome is in progress, asks me if I want to cancel, etc
18:11<brunes>doesn't use the other tuner
18:12<Universe>you could chose to watch it
18:12<brunes>but I cant watch something else
18:12<Universe>then check inputs with pressing c
18:12<brunes>using the second tuner
18:12<brunes>it always uses tuner # 1
18:12<brunes>C switches from cable to composite, etc
18:13<Universe>thats write
18:13<brunes>oh I see what you mean
18:13<Universe>err right
18:13<Universe>not sure what changes tuners
18:13<brunes>it should switch tuners auto if one is in use
18:16<brunes>where are those settings stored?
18:16<brunes>they dont seem to be in /usr/local/share/settings.txt
18:19<Universe>its in the database.. I believe
18:19<Universe>because when you run setup.. you set how many tuners you have
19:05<vektor>Anyone here from europe?
19:29<Universe>I think thats a big no vektor
19:30<vektor>oh yeah.
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19:34<vektor>also, i need to find someone who uses "canada-cable"
19:41<Universe>can't help there.. I am in the US..
19:41<brunes>vec: I used to use canada-cable :)
19:41<brunes>now I have no cable
19:47<vektor>Universe: canada-cable is, i believe, something non-existant, and merely a bad name for a north american cable standard.
19:47<vektor>Universe: but i need to figure that out conclusively.
19:48<Chutt>it's most likely named that way because someone in canada added it to xawtv.
19:49<Chutt>so far, someone in vancouver needed to use it, someone at a college where they have their own internal cable system, and someone at some apartment complex where they re-transmit satellite over cable.
19:50<Chutt>and a couple more people on the list
19:53<vektor>Chutt: Thanks.
19:53<vektor>I'm still trying to figure out conclusively where it comes from.
19:53<vektor>Like, if it's actually something more standard.
19:53<Chutt>the other people on the list were actually in canada
19:53<Chutt>but the guy at college and the apartment were in the US
19:56<vektor>I think I believe diz' suggestion that it's just IRC cable.
19:56<vektor>since the channels 5 and 6 are messed.
19:56<Chutt>with every channel offset by a constant amount?
19:57<vektor>IRC isn't an offset by a constand amount.
19:57<vektor>IRC is just broadcast cable with different frequencies for 5 and 6
19:57<Chutt>irc is 0, except for 5 and 6
19:57<Chutt>hrc is -1.25 with a couple exceptions
19:58<vektor>but if you look at canada-cable, it's just the same as us-cable but a .5MHz difference.
19:58<Chutt>this is +6.625, iirc
19:58<vektor>i don't think so.
19:58<Chutt>or close to that
19:58<vektor>is it?
19:58<Chutt>the guy that was in here the other day said a finetuning of 106 worked for him
19:58<Chutt>going off of the us-cable table
19:58<Chutt>that's 6.625
19:59<vektor>because if you ignore the off-by-one this is exactly IRC cable
19:59<Chutt>no, it's exactly it + a little bit
19:59<vektor>since channels 5 and 6 are different, but all the others match the channels correctly within tolerance.
19:59<vektor>but that's within tolerance.
19:59<Chutt>right, a small amount off
19:59* vektorlooks up tollerances again :)
20:00<Chutt>don't all TVs search up and down 2?
20:00<Chutt>or something like that
20:00<vektor>hmm, what do you mean?
20:00<vektor>sounds cool :)
20:00<Chutt>they autotune
20:01<vektor>yeah they do, and we can probably do it too :)
20:01<vektor>that's what i want to do anyway
20:01<vektor>but that's why i really want to figure this one out :)
20:01<vektor>because i'm wondering if it's something that TVs figure out automatically
20:02* vektoruses channel 21 as a reference.
20:03<vektor>yeah this off-by-one thing is soo weird.
20:03<Chutt>that's what i thought when some guy emailed my list saying that all his channels were off by one when he recorded something
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20:12<Echo465>I'm having a problem getting XML::Writer installed, and having trouble finding a solution...
20:12<Echo465>it gives me the error 'Error: Unable to locate installed Perl libraries or Perl source code.'
20:13<Chutt>email the xmltv mailing list
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20:23<mdz_>Chutt: 22 downloads
20:24-!-OrangeSun [] has joined #mythtv
20:24<OrangeSun>hey guys!!
20:24<OrangeSun>what's the good word?
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21:48<Echo465>I'm having trouble getting XML::Twig to install, specifically the dependancy XML::Parser..
21:48<Chutt>email the xmltv mailing list.
21:48<Chutt>or the xml::twig guy
21:48<Chutt>or whatever.
21:49<brtb>xml::twig needs xml::parser which needs the exa[t library
21:49<brtb>expat library
21:49<Chutt>there's working debian packages of xmltv. if you choose not to run debian, that's great, but no compile support for software i didn't even write for you.
21:50<Echo465>damn, who pissed in your wheaties this morning?
21:50<Chutt>why don't you try asking questions in the proper place for them?
21:51<Echo465>well, let's see. lets say that i'm following the directions in the README. oh, it doesn't work. hmm.
21:51<Chutt>this isn't a general tech support channel
21:51<Echo465>how about the readme just containing 'install it. if you have issues, fuck off'.
21:52<Echo465>btw, thanks for the tip, brtb
21:52<Universe>you except someone to support someone elses software?
21:52<Echo465>Universe: no, but if it's a dependancy, it might be nice to have it listed in the readme.
21:52<Universe>are you the same person that called modem support for a windows problem?
21:53<Chutt>err, the readme says 'you need xmltv'
21:53<Chutt>i'm not going to go through and list all of xmltv's dependencies.
21:53<Chutt>xmltv's readme does that.
21:54<Echo465>ok, fine, whatever.
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22:51<mirk_dt>Howdy. I've got mythtv running (sort of), but the video seems to be about 4X the size of my monitor so I only see the upper left quadrant of the video. Any idea what might be causing this?
22:53<Echo465>what kind of tv card are you using?
22:54<mirk_dt>Hauppage WinTV stereo
22:58-!-Keyser[zzz] is now known as KeyserSoze
22:59<mdz_>mirk_dt: does it happen in the menu, too, or only when you watch video?
23:02<mirk_dt>haven't tried the menu yet.
23:05<Echo465>I am having an issue compiling mythtv 0.7 on Mandrake 9. Following the directions from the readme, make gives the following:
23:05<Echo465>/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lXext
23:06<Chutt>you're most likely missing the xfree -dev rpms
23:06<brtb>was just about to say, you need the X development stuff
23:06<Echo465>ok, i'll install that and try again. thanks.
23:07<Chutt>also, are you following the README.mandrake9.0?
23:07<mirk_dt>it appears that the on-screen menus are stretched to about twice the screen width, too.
23:07<Chutt>mirk_dt, from mythfrontend?
23:07<Echo465>Chutt: yes I am, version 1.3
23:07<Chutt>are you running xinerama, dual head of some sort?
23:08<mirk_dt>mythtv...i'll check mythfrontend now...
23:09<mirk_dt>mythfrontend looks good.
23:09<mirk_dt>not stretched at all.
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23:11<Echo465>maybe a PAL vs NTSC issue?
23:11<Chutt>naw, more likely some weirdness in X
23:12<Echo465>adding the xfree stuff worked, btw.
23:12<Chutt>mirk_dt, what windowmanager? xinerama? ah, maybe you're running some virtual resolution higher than the actual resolution?
23:12<mirk_dt>using NTSC which is right for the U.S.
23:13<mirk_dt>actual resolution is 1280x1024
23:13<mirk_dt>not using virtual resolution
23:13<Chutt>heh, odd
23:14<Chutt>do'ya mind making a source mod and recompiling?
23:14<mirk_dt>finding it...
23:15<Chutt>insert: printf("%d %d\n", XJ_screenwidth, XJ_screenheight);
23:15<Chutt>on line 83
23:16<Chutt>then i just want to know what that prints out when you run mythtv with that compiled in there
23:16<Chutt>you don't have to make clean or anything like that
23:18<mirk_dt> i need to make install or can I just run the mythtv binary?
23:18<Chutt>probably should make install
23:19<mirk_dt>ok. installing..
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23:23<mirk_dt>Where's that output supposed to come out? I don't get any extra lines in my xterm.
23:23<Chutt>should've gone there
23:23<mirk_dt>hmm. and mythtv is not working now :(
23:23<mirk_dt>wonder what I broke?
23:24<mirk_dt>ok. got video.
23:24<mirk_dt>output to xterm was:
23:24<mirk_dt>1280 1024
23:24<Chutt>hit 'f' while it's playing back video
23:25<mirk_dt>nothing happened.
23:25<Chutt>err, hrm
23:27<Chutt>ah, i don't know, then
23:27<mirk_dt>thanks anyway.
23:28<Chutt>all the video output stuff is in that same file if you feel like debugging any further
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23:49<OrangeSun>Chutt: is there any way to make it so it automagically goes to composite input?
23:49<OrangeSun>like, so that's the default, instead of having to hit 'C' everytime?
23:50<Soopaman>if i make a "ln -sf <$target file> <link name>", if i save something to <link name> will it overwrite the link, or will is save it to the target file?
23:50<OrangeSun>Soopaman: target file
23:51<Soopaman>i must be screwing up the syntax or something
23:51<OrangeSun>Soopaman: what are you trying to do?
23:51<Soopaman>OrangeSun, i have a frozen configured linux dist. that has a singular partition for saving certain config files
23:52<OrangeSun>define "frozen" in this context.
23:53<Soopaman>but since $HOME is created/cleaned everyboot, i hope to use boot time symlinks to keep configurations in the config partition, but visible in the normal system
23:54<Soopaman>frozen as in you cannot alter anything outside of of the config/writable partition
23:54<Soopaman>which is only used to save conf settings/certain files
23:54<OrangeSun>is the partition mounted read/write?
23:55<OrangeSun>Soopaman: I have been using linux a long time, but have never really done more than just fixing things that were broken for me, so unfortunately i can't really reply with more than the generics..
23:55<Soopaman>there must be a way....
23:55<OrangeSun>what distro?
23:55<Soopaman>that doesn't involve copying
23:56<Echo465>nifty, i've got it working.
23:57<Echo465>decent performance too.
23:57<mdz_>Soopaman: it depends on how you modify the files
23:57<-- Universehas quit ()
23:57<mdz_>Soopaman: some editors, for example, will rename the file and then write out a new one
23:57<mdz_>Soopaman: in which case your symlink is replaced with a real file
23:57<mdz_>if the file is just overwritten, or modified in-place, then the symlink will stay