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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2002-11-16

00:00<sefudier>ahh ok :)
00:01<sefudier>if i recall correctly the error was after it tried copying the dir for blue
00:01<sefudier>some error like: dir already exists
00:01<sefudier>and then it stopped the rest of the copying (only blue got properly copied)
00:02<sefudier>chutt: i dont know if this is what should be happening but if i type say: 019 from any other channel
00:03<sefudier>019 will fade out and ill still be in the channel i was (i.e. its not changing channels)
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01:27<kaveh420>anyone here?
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06:39<SoB>anyone up"
06:52<dmz>Playing MPEG stream from South Park Mexicans (SPM) - Wiggy Wiggy.mp3 ...
06:52<dmz>wakeup music
06:52<SoB>this might be a stupid question, my first mythtv install =)
06:53<SoB>I'm getting this error when trying to run setup: QSqlDatabase warning: QMYSQL3 driver not loaded
06:53<SoB>what did I miss? hehe
06:58<nevertheless>SoB if you have the sql-plugin, you need to tell qt to search in the correct directory (~/.qt/qtrc)
06:58<SoB>qt returns this: QSqlDatabase: available drivers:
06:58<SoB>I don't think I have any more then the default
06:59<nevertheless>do you have $QTDIR/plugins/sql... ?
06:59<nevertheless>then you have to compile the plugin
07:00<SoB>I also don't have plugins/src
07:00<nevertheless>did you compile from source?
07:00<SoB>I'm using gentoo and just emerged it
07:01<nevertheless>oh, im using gentoo, too :-)
07:01<nevertheless>do you have the mysql useflag set?
07:01<SoB>how would I check
07:01<nevertheless>check your /etc/make.conf for USE
07:02<SoB>its not
07:02<SoB>set that and re-emerge qt?
07:02<nevertheless>then it compiles the qt-plugin
07:02<SoB>bummer, qt takes forever
07:02<nevertheless>i know
07:03<SoB>what about just compiling the plugin
07:03<SoB>I'm reading this page, it seems so simple if I just had the plugins/src directory
07:04<nevertheless>yes, but due to the ebuild structure, this seems to be complicated... you can unpack qt and do that compile thing
07:05<SoB>I guess either way I'm screwed to recompiling it =/
07:05<SoB>I can't wait to see what mythtv is like
07:06<SoB>I own a tivo
07:07<nevertheless>Im fighting with the german stuff of mythtv/mythfilldata
07:07<SoB>wouldn't know exactly what you're talkin about just yet
07:07<nevertheless>now it works with the channels, but while filling the db it removes all programs due to confilcts
07:13<SoB>sphynx mysql # qmake -o Makefile "INCLUDEPATH+=/usr/lib" "LIBS+=-L/usr/lib/ -lmysqlclient"
07:13<nevertheless>nice :-)
07:13<SoB>didn't have to recompile qt
07:17<nevertheless>hmmm, where comes this: DB Error: Program insertion failed, SQL query was:
07:17<nevertheless>INSERT INTO program (chanid,starttime,endtime,title,subtitle,description,category) VALUES(1027, 200211222345, 200211230030, "Blond am Freitag", "", "Comedytalk.Moderation: Ralph Morgenstern; Gste: Verona Feldbusch, Hella von Sinnen, Gabi Decker, Kim Fisher.", "unbekannt") ?
07:18<SoB>that sql query is formatted right
07:28<SoB>I'm missing a lot of perl modules to run xmltv
07:28<nevertheless>then install them, but:
07:29<nevertheless>you have to check your directorys
07:29<SoB>check my directories?
07:30<nevertheless>some perl stuff is installed to /usr/lib/site_perl/ and some to /usr/lib/perl5/
07:31<nevertheless>you have to mv everyting out of /usr/lib/site_perl/<VER> to /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/<ver> and then link it
07:31<nevertheless>ln -s /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/<ver> /usr/lib/site_perl/<ver>
07:32<SoB>ya, all set there =)
07:32<SoB>this isn't even the machine I'm planning to use mythtv with
07:33<nevertheless>hmmm, same with me
07:33<SoB>I won't be getting the mobo I need until later next week and I wanted to play in the meantime, can't believe I'll have to do all the v4l stuff and all this stuff over again!
07:34<nevertheless>this is dumb, I have xinerama running, and mythtv spread the picture over all displays
07:34<SoB>damn, I have xinerama runnin too
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09:46<_shad>Chutt: You around?
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10:58<_shad>Any reason why when I try to change the channel mythtv freezes?
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11:27<rnc>I generated a xml file similar to what tv_grab_na would do, for my local cable company. How do I get it into mythtv ? I'm browsing mythfilldatabase, and I can see tv_grab_{uk,de} hardcoded
11:27<rnc>how do I manually add mine ?
11:32<_shad>if you really want
11:32<_shad>just remove tv_grab_na and rename yours to that
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12:03<dmz>im looking at this howto..
12:04* papercliplooks
12:04<dmz>it sounds like a pita
12:05<paperclip>hmm.. does that card have the mjpeg hardware?
12:05<dmz>dont think so
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12:06<paperclip>the g400 seems like the best choice
12:06<paperclip>er.. g400tv or whatever it's called..
12:07<dmz>i got this link off the mailing list
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12:09<paperclip>that's a confusing product..
12:09<paperclip>WTF does it do..
12:10<paperclip>looks like it's just a monitor -> tv dongle..
12:11<paperclip> No software drivers
12:11<paperclip>that's freaky..
12:11<paperclip>the only reason you hook it to the pc is for power =)
12:13<paperclip>what are you trying to do?
12:13<dmz>i've used one before that required you to use 640x480@60hz res only
12:13<dmz>get stuff on a tv
12:14<paperclip>isn't TV in the tricky part
12:15<dmz>i guess, lots of that hardware sucks too
12:15<paperclip>i'm thinking aobut getting a hauppage wintv-d from ebay.. ~$100
12:15<paperclip>supposedly it can do 480p
12:16<paperclip>tv out i havn't looked into yet..
12:16<mdz_>does it work with the bttv driver?
12:16<paperclip>i think so..
12:16<Chutt>uh, i doubt it.
12:16<paperclip>i googled and saw people were using it with linux..
12:16* paperclipinvestigates further..
12:17<paperclip>there is a new haupage hd product coming out in a few days..
12:17<Chutt>and guess what, it won't have linux support either
12:17<paperclip>why not..
12:17<Chutt>because hauppauge doesn't write linux drivers?
12:18<paperclip>i don't think they wrote the bt8xx drivers either..
12:19<Chutt>that's my point.
12:19<dmz>The WinTV-D board accepts both standard Analog broadcasts, as well
12:19<dmz>as HDTV signals. The HDTV signals are downsized to 480i interlaced.
12:20* paperclipgoogles more
12:22<dmz>what are these wintv-pvr cards..
12:22<Chutt>also unsupported.
12:23<paperclip>i do recall seeing something about epga on the wintv-d
12:24<paperclip>hm.. so win-radio and win-theater would be the best, presently supported, hauppage products..
12:25<Chutt>i don't think the sound on the wintv-theater is fully supported
12:26<paperclip>hmm.. i really don't see any advantage to having pro logic on the card anyway..
12:26<paperclip>well.. the wintv-radio is cheap..
12:26<Chutt>got mine for $70 back in june
12:26<dmz>WinTV-PVR-350.. coming soon
12:26<paperclip>anyone thinking about a radio interface..
12:26<dmz>that looks pretty sweet
12:27<dmz>if it only had linux drivers
12:27<Chutt>you wouldn't want to use the mpeg decoder, though
12:27<dmz>they have one without that for $150 now
12:29<paperclip>somehow the heroine virtual guy(s) are using the wintv-d for capture..
12:30<Chutt>it probably works as a normal bt8x8 card
12:30<Chutt>without any of the other features.
12:30<paperclip>they specifically mention 480p
12:30* paperclipfinds it agian
12:30<Chutt>well, the hauppauge faq says it only does 480i :p
12:32* paperclipknows shit about HDTV (if you can't tell)
12:33<dmz>i wonder if there are any good ntsc to firewire boxes
12:33<dmz>that could be used
12:38<paperclip>/usr/src/linux-2.4/drivers/media/video/bttv-cards.c: { 0x39000070,
12:38<paperclip>BTTV_HAUPPAUGE878, "Hauppauge WinTV-D" },
12:39<mdz_>paperclip: you'll notice there is an entry in that table for the PVR model as well. but it only supports the same features as on the plain WinTV cards
12:40<paperclip>yeah.. i was pointing out that it used bttv 8xx
12:40<paperclip>i may get one anyway..
12:41<paperclip>seems like there is some effort to get it working with linux..
12:41<paperclip>how is the capture quality from these cards?
12:43<paperclip>i found a site mentioning that bttv is the worst video capture known to man..
12:44<vektor>paperclip: What site?
12:44<vektor>Or did it just state that without justification?
12:45<paperclip>"BrookTree compatible cards (most of them are TV Tuners with NO Video Out), which are the crap cards for video capture. "
12:46<paperclip>i added the known to man bit..
12:46<mdz_>I saw a review which compared the ATI all-in-wonder capture to the WinTV-PVR, and gave the ATI much higher marks
12:46<mdz_>but the review was fishy, they didn't give many details about how they did their test
12:46<vektor>paperclip: Well, they really state without any reasoning. It's not a very good argument.
12:46<paperclip>vektor: how do you think the quality is?
12:47<paperclip>vektor: i still think they "might" know what they are talking about.. they are a video production company..
12:47<vektor>paperclip: The comb filter isn't great and any internal tuner is going to suck. Other then that I think they're excellent.
12:48<vektor>I mean, it's very programmable and gives you everything you ask for.
12:48<vektor>As far as analog capture goes, I don't know what would be better.
12:48<paperclip>hmm.. so if i'm using dishnetwork.. and s-video.. it should be ok
12:48<vektor>I guess.
12:48<vektor>You should do component if you can, of course.
12:48<vektor>Or do a dishnetwork SDI output hack.
12:48<vektor>And buy one of these:
12:49<vektor>But you might have to hack a bit to get linux drivers working.
12:49<paperclip>what's sdi?
12:51<paperclip>that looks like it might be out of my legue (pricewise) for a while..
12:52<vektor>SDI is 'serial digital interface'
12:52<vektor>Regardless, that card also supports analog component input.
12:52<vektor>I'm not sure what other cards do. I wouldn't mind one.
12:52<vektor>S-Video sucks because it mixes the U and V channels together, and they must be filtered to separate them by the bt878 chip.
12:53<vektor>With composite video you have one signal and you need to separate all three of Y, U and V.
12:53<vektor>So, S-Video is a _huge_ step up from composite video, since the Y channel is very important, but having good colour means keeping U and V separate as well.
12:53<vektor>BTW this doesn't apply to cable or broadcast TV since it is a composite signal.
12:54<paperclip>hmm.. do dish recievers do component out?
12:54<vektor>But if you have dish network, it would be nice to keep the colour clean between the receiver and your PC.
12:54<vektor>I don't know if they do. Every DVD player does. :)
12:54<vektor>It's when you have three cables for video.
12:54<paperclip>my goal is to get dishnetwork.. eventually..
12:54<vektor>Y, Pb, Pr is what they're also called.
12:54<paperclip>yeah.. i know what it is..
12:54<vektor>Oh, you don't have it.
12:54<dmz>vektor: i was looking at some wintv specs
12:54<paperclip>but every dvd player doesn't have it..
12:54<vektor>paperclip: Any reasonable one does.
12:55<vektor>Except some of the cheap crappy ones.
12:55<paperclip>mine does..
12:55<dmz>they capture 4:2:0
12:55<vektor>Even my $200 canadian DVD player does.
12:55<vektor>dmz: Yes, it's MPEG-2 MP@ML.
12:55<paperclip>canadian dvd
12:55<paperclip>oh my
12:55<vektor>No I meant $200 CAD.
12:55<vektor>Not $200 USD.
12:55<mdz_>are there any TV-out cards which have component output?
12:55<mdz_>or only converter boxes?
12:55<paperclip>isn't that $CD200
12:55<vektor>mdz: Good question. I think there are some converter boxes.
12:56<mdz_>vektor: someone on the mailing list has mentioned using a converter with component output, so they would seem to exist
12:56<vektor>mdz: My G400 only dose S-Video output.
12:56<dmz>vektor: isnt that throwing away V ?
12:56<vektor>dmz: No.
12:56<vektor>dmz: 4:2:0 just means that you have less information in the colour channels.
12:56<vektor>dmz: So, broadcast video is 4:2:2, meaning you have half as much colour as you do luma.
12:56<mdz_>my TV has component input that I've never used for anything, ever
12:56<vektor>dmz: In 4:2:0, you have one quarter's worth of colour as you do luma.
12:57<vektor>dmz: All DVDs use 4:2:0 for example.
12:57<vektor>mdz: Buy a DVD player!
12:57<paperclip>mdz_: me too
12:57* paperclipis embarrased
12:57<vektor>You guys are nuts, it's better than S-Video and _alot_ better than composite :)
12:58<mdz_>vektor: why am I nuts?
12:58<paperclip>i like to record from my dvd player..
12:58<mdz_>I have no need for a DVD player
12:58<vektor>dunno just being a prick :)
12:58<paperclip>besides i mostly watch (s)vcd
12:58<vektor>oh well now you are nuts, DVDs rock.
12:58<mdz_>if I could have bought a TV out card, supported under Linux, with component output, I surely would have
12:58<paperclip>dvd is the work of the devil
12:58<vektor>mdz: me too :)
12:58<vektor>paperclip: Why?
12:59<paperclip>fair use
12:59<paperclip>out the door
12:59<mdz_>paperclip: that is the DMCA you hate, not DVD
12:59<vektor>oh well that's legal crap not technical crap.
12:59<vektor>libdvdcss works just fine for me.
12:59<paperclip>next you'll only be licensing the media.. oh wait..
12:59<paperclip>mdz_: i don't like that also.. the two are mutually exclusive..
13:00<vektor>regardless i still collect DVDs.
13:00<paperclip>i get them if they are used/cheap
13:00<vektor>dude, they're all cheap.
13:00<paperclip>i'm trying not to.. but i'm weak
13:01<paperclip>(s)vcd is cheap.. at ~$us1/movie
13:01<vektor>and from what source?
13:01<vektor>so you pirate movies?
13:02<paperclip>usually it's from TV =)
13:02<vektor>so then you don't care about quality.
13:02<vektor>oh well.
13:02<paperclip>or asian vcd
13:02<paperclip>i do..
13:02<paperclip>very much so..
13:02<vektor>i think we have different definitions. :)
13:02<paperclip>but I'm more concerned with my rights as a consumer..
13:03<vektor>fair enough.
13:03<paperclip>i have priorities.. and quality at any price (even freedom) isn't one of them..
13:03<paperclip>i need to get a new AV receiver that has loads of s-vid inputs.. and some component stuff too
13:04<paperclip>do you have any idea what the sdisilk costs?
13:04<vektor>it says on the page
13:04<vektor>it's like $600 USD or so i think.
13:04<paperclip>what's it say..
13:05<paperclip>i linked to the dealers..
13:05<paperclip>more than my TV =(
13:05<vektor>compared to $800 USD for the faroudja board with hardware deinterlacing
13:05<vektor>well, yeah
13:05<vektor>SDI isn't meant for home use
13:05<vektor>so, stuff like this is expensive :)
13:05<paperclip>i think i'll stick with the bttv stuff (for now)
13:05<vektor>this is meant for quality freaks
13:05<paperclip>emphesis on freaks
13:06<vektor>well it depends how much you value your hobby
13:06<paperclip>most ppl i know think quality == digital cable..
13:06<vektor>if you have a nice home theatre system with a $4000 projector
13:06<vektor>then spending $1000 on the card for your HTPC isn't so bad
13:06<paperclip>no.. i can see it.. for some *freaks* =)
13:07<vektor>well, what are you watching the output on?
13:07<paperclip>it'll be in my price range soon enough..
13:07<paperclip>jvc av-36230
13:07<vektor>if your output is going over analog you don't care as much about digital in
13:07<vektor>i think people who buy this all use projectors
13:07<vektor>and care alot about deinterlacing
13:07<paperclip>i have component input..
13:08<paperclip>but i'm guessing that s-vid will be as good as it gets for me..
13:08<vektor>that's analog
13:09<paperclip>so.. do you know where i can get an "ir-blaster" to control the dish receiver?
13:10<mdz_>paperclip: there have been about 50 people on the mailing list in the past week who have explained this
13:10<mdz_>mine is in the mail, backordered unfortunately
13:11<paperclip>mdz_: oh.. i didn't see any when i glances..
13:11<paperclip>er.. glanced..
13:11<paperclip>are they expensive?
13:11<mdz_>paperclip: I paid USD25
13:11<mdz_>plus shipping
13:11<mdz_>you can build one for less if you are so inclined
13:12<mdz_>but I am not into building hardware right now
13:12<paperclip>i'm down with $25 myself
13:12<paperclip>tho i think i may have suitable stuff here to build one..
13:12<vektor>ir-blaster eh...
13:12<vektor>mdz: where did you get yours from?
13:12<mdz_>vektor: the place that was posted to the mailing list
13:12<paperclip>vektor: RTF mailing list
13:12<mdz_>snapstream or something
13:13<mdz_>apparently they sell some kind of PVR product, and so they sell the IR blaster for cheap
13:13<paperclip>don't they make software
13:13<mdz_>the same model costs twice as much from the manufacturer
13:13<mdz_>the same manufacturer makes a similar product which connects to a botherboard IR port rather than an external serial port, which is what I wanted
13:13<mdz_>and it is cheaper
13:13<mdz_>but it is cheaper to get the external serial version from snapstream than to get the motherboard version from the manufacturer
13:14<mdz_>I couldn't find anyone else who sold it
13:14<paperclip>serial is ok.. i might find a use for it later..
13:14<vektor>USB one i guess?
13:14<mdz_>vektor: nah, just plain serial
13:14<vektor>mdz: oh cool
13:15<mdz_>I had been looking for something like this forever
13:15<mdz_>it seems like such a simple thing
13:15<mdz_>and everyone builds them
13:15<mdz_>I wanted one which just worked
13:15<paperclip>i have one that came with an AOL-TV unit..
13:15<paperclip>wow.. looks like you can use direcTV with just a serial cable..
13:15<mdz_>what kind of ungodly evil is AOL-TV?
13:16<mdz_>there is a serial port on my cable box as well, but no specs except one guy who figured out how to turn it on and off
13:16<paperclip>mdz_: err. it's an x86 box with bttv and a 5 gig hd
13:16<mdz_>oh yeah, and the snapstream one bundles in a couple of A/V cables, in addition to being half the price
13:16<paperclip>mdz_: nice remote.. ir blaster dongle..
13:16<vektor>that's what the IR blaster looks like?
13:17<vektor>damn, I have one of those! :)
13:17<vektor>I totally forgot i did too.
13:17<paperclip>one of my vcr's came with one too..
13:17<vektor>I used to work at a company and we built an IP phone with IR support.
13:17<vektor>So, I have a serial port IR dongle I totally forgot about.
13:17<paperclip>or was it my old dish receiver..
13:18<mdz_>this is the motherboard unit:
13:18<mdz_>vektor: nice one
13:18<vektor>mdz: thanks :)
13:18<paperclip>nifty.. irda
13:19<mdz_>the serial one is USD59 from actisys, the motherboard one is USD35 from actisys, and the serial one is USD25 from snapstream with some cables. go figure
13:19<paperclip>are you sure that it will blast consumer ir stuff..
13:19<mdz_>paperclip: which?
13:20<mdz_>people on the list are using the actisys unit
13:20<paperclip>AFAIK irda != consumer ir
13:20<mdz_>it works at short range according to the LIRC people
13:20<paperclip>i think they just got lucky..
13:20<paperclip>i'm almost sure all irda hardware doesn't do that..
13:21<mdz_>probably not all
13:21<mdz_>my laptop didn't do it
13:21<mdz_>which means I am that much happier with the serial version
13:21<paperclip>my mini itx has a header for irda and consumer ir
13:21<paperclip>has headers.. i should say
13:22<paperclip>so.. you can use lirc to learn codes for the ir-blaster?
13:23* paperclipstarts making a spreadsheet to see what this beast will cost
13:23<mdz_>should be possible
13:23<mdz_>but there are already codes publicly available for everything I need
13:23<mdz_>another reason I'm happier with the IR dongle than with some serial solution; I can use it to control the TV and receiver as well
13:24<mdz_>so when I want to switch between sources, I can change all of them with one command
13:24<mdz_>(my receiver doesn't switch S-video or anything fancy like that)
13:24<paperclip>mine either..
13:24<mdz_>only composite, and only a couple of inputs
13:24<paperclip>which is why i need to get a new receiver..
13:25<paperclip>what are you saying.. i thought you were getting the serial dongle?
13:25<paperclip> <mdz_> another reason I'm happier with the IR dongle than with some serial solution;
13:25<paperclip>you mean serial cable
13:25* paperclipgets it now
13:26<mdz_>though I'd be interested in getting that working too one day
13:26<mdz_>probably more reliable than IR
13:26<paperclip>yeah.. it would be cleaner
13:26<mdz_>though when I get a new cable system, or sat, or whatever, I'd be screwed
13:26<paperclip>i'm planning on hiding the whole mythtv/dish thing..
13:27<paperclip>so i really don't care what it looks/sounds
13:27<paperclip>tho.. it would be nice if the mythtv box did dvd/(s)vcd too..
13:28<vektor>i can't find my IR dongle
13:28<vektor>but i did find my palmpilot :)
13:28<vektor>maybe i can use that as a lirc receiver :)
13:28* paperclippets his trusty IIIx
13:28<vektor>I have a IIIc
13:28<vektor>can use it as a flashlight the display is so bright
13:29<paperclip>i'm going to get a treo 300
13:29<paperclip>actually the 300 is on sale for 3 more days.. $250 after rebates..
13:29<paperclip>i should order today =)
13:39<paperclip>mdz_: you'll be using two serial ports.. one for your remote in.. and one for the blaster out, eh?
13:48<mdz_>paperclip: nope
13:48<mdz_>paperclip: I use an RF remote
13:48<mdz_>over USB
13:49<paperclip>you use aiw?
13:51<paperclip>remote wonder
13:52<paperclip>does that interface to lirc somehow?
13:54<paperclip>25' range.. nice
13:57<paperclip>hmm.. comes with the 8500
14:05<paperclip>ahh.. ati_remote..
14:06<paperclip>hmm.. you use a custom keymap?
14:06<paperclip>that's a nice solution..
14:07<mdz_>it just acts like a keyboard and mouse
14:07<mdz_>no LIRC nonsense
14:09<paperclip>it looks ok..
14:09<paperclip>except for the price..
14:10<paperclip>but that's understandable..
14:10<paperclip>you have the 8500dv, right?
14:12<paperclip>there is something to be said for IR tho.. it's really easy to get a universal remote.. or make lirc learn whatever codes..
14:12<paperclip>while the ati remote wonder is a one shot rig..
14:24<ntl|afk>while running mythfilldatabase i get this error: DB Error: Program insertion failed, SQL query was:
14:24<ntl|afk>INSERT INTO program (chanid,starttime,endtime,title,subtitle,description,category) VALUES(1027, 200211160925, 200211160940, "N
14:24<ntl|afk>elly Net(t)", "", "Interaktive Spieleshow.", "unbekannt")
14:24<ntl|afk>anybody knows, why this could be?
14:24<paperclip>i've seen that here before.. =)
14:25<paperclip>is it common to have a blank ("") value?
14:26<ntl|afk>hmmm, don't know
14:26<paperclip>the subtitle was blank on the last one too..
14:28<ntl|afk>i'll check that
14:29<ntl|afk>but running this in mysql directly works
14:29<ntl|afk>chris@luna:~/misc/make/MYTHTV/mythtv-0.7/setup> mysql -u root -p mythconverg
14:29<ntl|afk>Enter password:
14:29<ntl|afk>Reading table information for completion of table and column names
14:29<ntl|afk>You can turn off this feature to get a quicker startup with -A
14:29<ntl|afk>Welcome to the MySQL monitor. Commands end with ; or \g.
14:29<ntl|afk>Your MySQL connection id is 64 to server version: 3.23.52-log
14:29<ntl|afk>Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer.
14:29-!-ntl|afk is now known as nevertheless
14:29<nevertheless>mysql> INSERT INTO program (chanid,starttime,endtime,title,subtitle,description,category) VALUES(1027, 200211161700, 200211161705, "heute", "", "", "unbekannt");
14:29<nevertheless>Query OK, 1 row affected (0.00 sec)
14:29<paperclip>same show, eh?
14:33<nevertheless>as you probably read before, i could not add a single entry using mythfilldb
14:33<nevertheless>i get that all the time
14:33-!-whatsit [~whatsit@] has joined #mythtv
14:33<nevertheless>with every entry, but running the command directly works
14:33<paperclip>so you only have the one show?
14:34<whatsit>what window manager do/would you use for a dedicated mythtv box?
14:34<whatsit>or could you use the mythtv frontend as the window manager?
14:35<paperclip>i don't think you need a wm
14:35* paperclipguesses
14:35<nevertheless>paperclip: no, mythepg doesn't show a single entry, not even this one
14:36<nevertheless>unfortunatly i don't know nothing about sql, so i can't debug that thing
14:36<paperclip>i'm still in theconstructon planning stages... so i'm not going to be much help..
14:36<paperclip>could be the Net(t)
14:37<paperclip>i think parentheses need to be escaped.. like so.. \(
14:37<nevertheless>but it would work nowhere, if this would be the problem?
14:38* papercliplooks for his sql book
14:39<whatsit>paperclip: I'm not bad with SQL... what is the prob?
14:39<nevertheless>while running mythfilldb I always get:
14:39<nevertheless>DB Error: Program insertion failed, SQL query was:
14:39<nevertheless>INSERT INTO program (chanid,starttime,endtime,title,subtitle,description,category) VALUES(1026, 200211222345, 200211230030, "Blond am Freitag", "", "Comedytalk.Moderation: Ralph Morgenstern; Gste: Verona Feldbusch, Hella von Sinnen, Gabi Decker, Kim Fisher.", "unbekannt")
14:41<nevertheless>hmmm, but a dump of of the sql db shows entrys in 'program'
14:42<whatsit>there is no space after the keyword "VALUES" ?
14:42<whatsit>not sure, but that could present a problem
14:43<whatsit>I'm pretty sure you need a space, cariage return, or tab between VALUES and the next open-paren
14:43<nevertheless>but there is data in the db, but mythepg doesn't show a single one
14:44<whatsit>are you trying to save a new row to the database or retrieve rows?
14:45<nevertheless>a mysqldump shows, that there is lots of shows in the db, but mythepg shows everything as "unknown"
14:45<nevertheless>i try to fill the db, when i get this error
14:47<whatsit>ic you are running mythfilldatabase when you get this right?
14:47<whatsit>and you are running it as the mythtv user?
14:48<nevertheless>im running it as normal user, or do you mean the sql user?
14:48<nevertheless>previously i run it with _uk settings (now with _de settings) and it showed all right
14:48<whatsit>I'm pretty new to mythtv, but I thought you had to run mythfilldatabase as the mythtv user
14:50<whatsit>is there no user on your system named "mythtv"
14:50<nevertheless>nope, i just use it as normal user
14:50<paperclip>hello _shad
14:51<whatsit>nevertheless: ic
14:51<whatsit>so the user you are running this as has database permissions on the mythtv database, right?
14:52<Chutt>any user that can run mythfilldatabase has permissions on the db.
14:53<whatsit>nevertheless: all of the settings in /etc/mythtv/mysql.txt are correct?
14:53<Chutt>if it gets that far, it's already connected to the database.
14:53<Chutt>so permissions aren't a problem.
14:55<nevertheless>yes, i changet to the root-user, so that is definatly not the problem
14:55<nevertheless>hi Chutt :-)
14:57<nevertheless>after running mythfilldb mythconverg is full of program data (I just veryfied that)
14:58-!-bigguy [] has joined #mythtv
14:59<whatsit>off topic: what command could you run as a cron job to get the schedule every so often automatically?
14:59<Chutt>there's example cron stuff in the docs.
15:00<Namapoos>is cron a part of linux?
15:00<Namapoos>or do you have to install it?
15:01<paperclip>it's usually there..
15:02<paperclip>try .. crontab -e
15:02<paperclip>that lets you modify your users crontab
15:02<nevertheless>hmmm, now i re-setup'ed the db and everything worked fine, but mythepg still doens't show anything (only channels with "unknown" in the table)
15:03<Chutt>then stuff in the channel table doesn't match up with the stuff in the program table.
15:03<Namapoos>paperclip, where would it be located?
15:04<Namapoos>i'm gonna see if my embedded dist has it ( idoubt it though)
15:04<paperclip>it's /usr/sbin/cron here..
15:04<paperclip>which seems reasonable..
15:04<paperclip>there's no cron in midori =)
15:05<Namapoos>can you download the cron source somewhere, 'cause i need a command to run every X minutes
15:06<nevertheless>Chutt: i have a channel with id 1000 in the chanlist (INSERT INTO channel VALUES (1000,'ARD',1,'','ARD','/home/chris/.mythtv/channels/logo-47.gif',0,NULL,'ARD');) and I have data for chanid 1000 (INSERT INTO program VALUES (1000,20200211160045,20200211160105,'Nachtmagazin','','','unbekannt');) (data taken from dump)
15:06<Namapoos>(for storing data)
15:06<paperclip>you might be better off just using a shell script or something..
15:06<paperclip>to freeze?
15:06<paperclip>that's a good way to wear flash out..
15:06<Namapoos>does flash wear out?
15:07<paperclip>yes.. after some few 100k writes..
15:07<paperclip>some flash has a smart controller that tries to spread the writes around..
15:08<paperclip>that should read after 200,000-300,000 writes flash can wear out..
15:08<Namapoos>could it be seen the same as certain hd's?
15:09<Chutt>nevertheless, the date format for that program insert is wrong.
15:10<paperclip>Chutt: good eye.. where did the extra 20 come from?
15:10<nevertheless>oh, ic
15:10<Chutt>him, apparently :p
15:10<whatsit>the mythtv frontend is bigger than my screen... is there a parameter that I can pass mythfrontend that will size it automatically
15:10<Chutt>you could at least _look_ at the settings files
15:11-!-yebyen_ is now known as yebyen
15:11<whatsit>sorry man, I've been working on this box for way too long and I'm loosing cognitive ablility
15:11<whatsit>and the *ability* to spell
15:12<Chutt>nevertheless, YYYYMMDDhhmmss
15:13<nevertheless>are the seconds really needed?
15:14<nevertheless>hmmm, they are not in the german database, and the 20 is not in the database, too, what the f***
15:14-!-bigguy [] has quit ["off to slay yebyen's mom"]
15:14<Chutt>if you don't have the seconds, it interprets it as YYMMDDhhmmss
15:15<Chutt>ie, two digit year, not four
15:15<nevertheless>oh :-)
15:16<nevertheless>mythfilldb is responsible for this, right?
15:16<Chutt>no, mysql is
15:16<Chutt>that's the timestamp format
15:16<paperclip>is that a date type thing?
15:16<nevertheless>Chutt: i found a way to use the german stuff (I patched tv_grab_de)
15:16<Chutt>if it works and stuff, send it to the xmltv people
15:18<Chutt>i assume you made it generate some simple <channel> entries?
15:18<nevertheless>i made a channellist.xml myself, and this will be added while running tv_grab_de
15:19<nevertheless>and now I have to check, how to add the seconds :-)
15:23<paperclip>does tv-in and out work simultaneously with the ATI AIW cards?
15:23<paperclip>that's what i tought..
15:24<paperclip>too many choices..
15:31<paperclip>and not enough cheese..
15:31-!-rnc [] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
15:34<_shad>I need a faster computer
15:35<_shad>I can't stand to watch tv in 320x240 anymore :(
15:41<whatsit>which codec is more efficient: rtjpeg or mpeg4?
15:42<whatsit>I guess I don't know what the main differences are
15:42<vektor>rtjpeg is based on doing a single jpeg for every input frame.
15:42<vektor>mpeg4 has inter-frame compression, so it can have motion vectors between frames, as well as the parts of the frame being encoded using jpeg-like compression.
15:43<vektor>So, mpeg4 is more complex
15:43<whatsit>vektor: that makes mpeg4 slower for live video compression?
15:43<vektor>But as with anything, efficiency is dependant on how the encoders were written and optimized, and what settings you use, so it's hard to judge based just on that.
15:44<vektor>Well, theoretically it should be much slower if you use any inter-frame compression.
15:44<paperclip>hmm.. looks like you need a wm
15:44<vektor>Since finding good motion vectors is a computationally expensive problem, plus you have to have the old frame data still around in memory.
15:44<vektor>But maybe you can use the MPEG-4 compressor without any inter-frame compression, at which point, the differences become a bit blurred.
15:45<whatsit>so keeping mythtv's codec setting at rtjpeg is probably wise, eh?
15:46<vektor>I can't say either way in your situation since I don't have enough information.
15:46<vektor>I'm also too busy to bother.
15:49<vektor>my composite is still slower than it should be
15:49<vektor>i do alot of work :(
16:09<nevertheless>ok, my patch for tv_grab_de works with the channel and the timeformat stuff. now I have to make a nice channels.lst.xml file and then I sent it to the xmltv developers. so lets see, what will come
16:25<whatsit>could someone refresh my memory: what is the equivalent to the format command in linux?
16:26<nevertheless>there is no equivalent, what do you want to do?
16:27<whatsit>does makefs initialize a partition?
16:27<whatsit>mkfs that is
16:28<nevertheless>yes, it does init the partition
16:28<whatsit>sorry... answered my own question
16:38-!-whatsit [] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
16:47<dmz>what's up with
16:49-!-witten_ is now known as witten
16:51<paperclip> has been 500 all day
16:51<dmz>yesterday too
17:38<mdz_>paperclip: no, I have the 7500
17:41<witten>kickass! debian packages
17:42<Chutt>way to read the mailing list and web page.
17:42<witten>hey, I just idle here :)
17:47<Chutt>i should get someone to put together a better webpage
17:54<witten>wow, I'm just going through some of the setup scripts and I haven't even seen mythtv itself run, and I'm already impressed
17:55<witten>it's so geeky it hurts
18:06<witten>hmm, mythtv binary segfaults
18:11-!-sefudier [] has joined #mythtv
18:28<mdz_>witten: what binary?
18:28<witten>mythtv from the woody deb
18:28<mdz_>witten: is that the only mythtv that you've installed? or did you install it from source previously?
18:29<witten>it stopped segfaulting when I switched users to one that had access to the mysql database. but now I get wavy lines on all channels :)
18:29<witten>only one..
18:29<mdz_>ok, yes, you need to run it as the mythtv user
18:29<witten>yah, doing so now
18:29<witten>but no channels show up (listings show up fine)
18:30<mdz_>show up where?
18:32<sefudier>mdz, if i have a xmltv file how do i feed it into mythtv's database?
18:32<sefudier>from what i checked mythfilldatabase calls the program you specify it to call, but it only supports tv_grab_(na, de, uk).. and they're called with specific parameters
18:33<mdz_>sefudier: you'd have to trick mythfilldatabase into doing it
18:33<mdz_>the easiest way would be to run mythfilldatabase, and while it is trying to download the listings, swap in your file for the temporary file
18:33<mdz_>but the right way would be to modify mythfilldatabase to let you do what you want
18:34<paperclip>mdz_: did the remote wonder come with the 7500? and what do you use for TV output?
18:34<mdz_>paperclip: yes, it did
18:34<mdz_>paperclip: and I use the card itself for TV output, of course
18:34<sefudier>humm.. yeah, ill look into modifying.. that swaping trick doesnt look too good
18:34<paperclip>what do you use for input then?
18:35<witten>mdz: channels are all static
18:35<witten>that's what I meant by "show up"
18:35<mdz_>witten: are you sure that your tuner settings are correct?
18:35<witten>mdz: no :)
18:35<mdz_>witten: your frequency table, TV standard, etc
18:35<witten>where is that set?
18:35<mdz_>witten: when you installed the package
18:35<witten>oh ok
18:35<mdz_>witten: what part of the world are you in?
18:35<witten>is there anywhere I can alter it now?
18:36<witten>us, california
18:36<mdz_>witten: so you are using NTSC
18:36<mdz_>witten: and what is your input source? cable? antenna?
18:36<mdz_>so you should be using the us-bcast table
18:36<mdz_>you can run dpkg-reconfigure mythtv to change it
18:36<witten>thanks, will do
18:37<witten>I don't recall it asking me for that though
18:37<mdz_>I believe the default is us-cable
18:37<mdz_>witten: it is a high-priority question, so it will always be asked unless your debconf priority is set to critical
18:37<mdz_>witten: you did install the latest deb, right?
18:37<witten>I'll have another look at it. thanks for the help
18:38<paperclip>heh.. the only 7500 i can find with remote is ~$70 more than without..
18:38<mdz_>witten: let me know what you find out, I'd like to know if it isn't asking the questions
18:38<mdz_>paperclip: really? when I was looking, they all seemed to come with the remote
18:38<mdz_>I didn't go looking for it
18:38<paperclip>hmm.. maybe they do..
18:39<mdz_>I don't remember if it was advertised that it came with the remote; I was not really expecting it
18:39<witten>mdz_: well the initial deb configuration bombed out for some reason
18:39<mdz_>witten: ah...and you used it anyway?
18:39<paperclip>at pricewatch "radeon 7500" brings up ~$50 while adding "remote" is ~$120
18:40<mdz_>paperclip: ah, on pricewatch they're probably selling the bare card
18:40<mdz_>paperclip: rather than the retail box, which has the remote
18:40<witten>mdz_: I think I then ran dpkg --configure mythtv and assumed that would take care of everything
18:40<paperclip>it'd be cheaper that way .. and i could get whatever card i wanted..
18:41<mdz_>witten: you didn't record the error when it was configuring the first time? I would like to see it.
18:41<witten>sorry, I didn't
18:41<mdz_>paperclip: make sure you get all of the connectors and stuff, it comes with a lot
18:41<mdz_>if you decide to get that card
18:42<nevertheless>ok, so my database stuff is running now... now come the next problems... how about xinerama?
18:42<mdz_>witten: could you purge and reinstall the package and see if it happens again?
18:42<mdz_>it works here, and has worked for others
18:42<paperclip>mdz_: ok.. i'm so indecisive it's not even funny.. but i will keep that in mind..
18:42<witten>mdz: I *think* it could have had to due with mysql not being running (it was installed)
18:42-!-aw [] has joined #mythtv
18:42<mdz_>paperclip: at some point, you have to take the plunge
18:42<mdz_>witten: yes, that would make it pretty unhappy
18:42<nevertheless>anyway to tell mythtv not to use the whole xinerama screen?
18:43<paperclip>mdz_: i just noticed that the replayTV 4504 is $199 =)
18:43<mdz_>witten: but it should ask you the questions at preconfiguration, long before it tries to configure anything
18:43<witten>mdz: heh
18:43<witten>mdz: hmm ok.. I'll try a purge and reinstall at some point
18:43<mdz_>paperclip: weren't you ranting about fair use before?
18:43<mdz_>paperclip: why would you buy a box which restricts what you can do with your media?
18:44<paperclip>mdz_: i have a dvd player =)
18:44<mdz_>paperclip: so basically, you are a hypocrite :-)
18:44<paperclip>mdz_: AFAIK you can get the video out of the replay
18:44<mdz_>paperclip: you can get the video out of the TiVo, too, it's just illegal
18:44<nevertheless>is anybody of you able to paste the <channel id...> part of a xmltv.xml file generated by tv_grab_na ?
18:44<paperclip>the replay was designed for that..
18:44<mdz_>nevertheless: sure, give me your email address and I'll send it
18:45<paperclip>how does replayTV have anything to do with fair use..
18:45<paperclip>if anything it's a good example of fair use
18:46<paperclip>contrary to a DVD player.. which basically prohibits reproduction..
18:47<mdz_>I can't get to the replaytv site, maybe I'm confusing it with the other products
18:47<nevertheless>why does nothing happen if I hit enter on "Settings" in mythfrontend?
18:47<mdz_>so you are saying you can put a network card in it and watch your recordings on any other computer on the network?
18:47<paperclip>they were sued for allowing the box to share videos over the net..
18:47<mdz_>without "reverse engineering" it?
18:48<mdz_>nevertheless: not implemented yet
18:48<paperclip>it's designed to be replayTV ,-> replayTV
18:48<nevertheless>hehe :-)
18:48<paperclip>er <->
18:48<paperclip>there are programs that pretend to be a replayTV
18:49<paperclip>so.. i wouldn't have to reverse engineer anything myself
18:49<mdz_>how is that any better?
18:49<paperclip>me not reversing it?
18:50<mdz_>for example
18:50<paperclip>it's basically running a webserver..
18:51-!-OrangeSun [] has joined #mythtv
18:51<paperclip>i'm not sure why you think that having a replayTV is counter my "fair use rant"
18:51<OrangeSun>hey dudes!!
18:51<nevertheless>mdz_ email arrived, thx
18:51<OrangeSun>paperclip: because comments like that mean you're a commie.
18:52<OrangeSun>yeah. I said commie.
18:52<paperclip>that's legal in the US..
18:52<paperclip>so i'm ok
18:54<paperclip>I'm pretty much on anyone's side that has been in court against the MPAA..
18:55<mdz_>paperclip: where were you when the DMCA was passed?
18:55<paperclip>right here..
18:55<mdz_>paperclip: reverse engineering gets engineers sued
18:55<paperclip>i never said anything about that..
18:55<paperclip>nor does it have doodly to do with my love of fair use..
18:55<mdz_>paperclip: so if reverse engineering is necessary to allow you to do what you want with the box, then those uses are illegal
18:56<mdz_>paperclip: and in just so happens that the kinds of features that require reverse engineering are what would fall under the "fair use" that we are accustomed to with, say, VCR technology
18:56<paperclip>how do they sell the thing then?
18:56<paperclip>you mean the extracting video?
18:56<mdz_>paperclip: how does who sell what? what are you asking?
18:58<paperclip>AFICT we are talking about replayTV...
18:58<OrangeSun>mdz: you're just as confusing at the moment..
18:58<paperclip>i think it still does replay to replay sharing..
18:58<paperclip>tho i might be wrong..
18:58<mdz_>paperclip: what does that have to do with reverse engineering?
18:59<paperclip>nothing.. you brought that up..
18:59<mdz_>paperclip: I don't care about replaytv to replaytv sharing, I wouldn't buy more than one of them anyway
18:59<nevertheless>sefudier: i gonna take the walk for the "own" xml file, too, so let me know, what you are doing, plz
18:59<paperclip>heh.. it might be handy if you had friends =)
18:59<mdz_>I want to have recordings on a _computer_
18:59<paperclip>i like them on shiny little discs..
18:59<mdz_>paperclip: that's just silly
18:59<paperclip>like you calling me a hypocrite..
19:00<mdz_>you rant about freedom, and then you want to buy some proprietary box which is just the opposite
19:00<paperclip>it's not the opposite..
19:00<OrangeSun>paperclip: anything proprietary is inherently evil.
19:00<OrangeSun>just ask slashdot
19:01<mdz_>"you can share your data with other products that we make, but that's all"
19:01<paperclip>i was bitching about dvd
19:01<mdz_>and what's your beef with DVD, then?
19:01<OrangeSun>In fact, I can't even imagine why anybody would want to make a product that doesn't use GPLed code!
19:01<paperclip>mdz_: i'd say that's a step in the right dirrection..
19:01<paperclip>like if you use VHS .. you can use this in another VHS
19:02<mdz_>what does VHS have to do with it? it's not digital
19:02<mdz_>you could hook up the output of your DVD player to a VHS deck
19:02<paperclip>you said replay didn't have fair use like we have with a VCR
19:02<mdz_>so s/DVD/VHS/
19:02<paperclip>mdz_: unless you break the law.. that doesn't work
19:03<paperclip>so you see why i don't like DVD
19:03<paperclip>it prohibits the end user from easily making a copy..
19:04<paperclip>anyway.. i still think that it's not a bad deal for $199
19:04<mdz_>last I checked, stabilizers are not illegal
19:04<paperclip>dvd doesn't use macrovision that way
19:04<paperclip>there's no scanline in mpeg
19:05<vektor>No 'scanline'?
19:05<mdz_>what does mpeg have to do with it? the output of the DVD player is analog
19:05<paperclip>it's not done that way..
19:05<vektor>Done what way?
19:05<paperclip>the macrovision in the dvd player..
19:06<vektor>... based on the flag on the DVD... yeah what about it?
19:06<mdz_>OrangeSun: I do not see what software licensing has to do with anything at hand
19:06<paperclip>i guess it's added in the player..
19:06<paperclip>i dunno..
19:06<vektor>It's an oeration performed by the DVD player yes.
19:06<paperclip>so.. how would your saying "<mdz_> you could hook up the output of your DVD player to a VHS deck" matter then..
19:06<vektor>It also can't be done on component video afaik.
19:07<mdz_>vektor: really? I did not know that
19:07<vektor>Macrovision is a licensing thing anyway.
19:07<vektor>And you can get around it by writing your own DVD palyer.
19:07<vektor>I did, it wasn't too hard.
19:08<paperclip>sure.. if it weren't encrypted..
19:08<vektor>I decrypt it just fine using libdvdcss, thanks.
19:08<paperclip>we're not allowed to break the DMCA
19:08<vektor>I'm in Canada.
19:08<vektor>I think you should move.
19:08<paperclip>i should..
19:08<paperclip>but the winter is nasty..
19:08<vektor>Not where I am.
19:09<mdz_>vektor: canada is not that far behind
19:09<OrangeSun>mdz: that's cuz you're a commie too.
19:09<OrangeSun>damned commies
19:09<vektor>mdz: I've heard differently.
19:09<mdz_>vektor: is there not legislation in progress?
19:09<vektor>It's unclear.
19:09<vektor>But I don't want to say more until I look it up some more.
19:09<paperclip>viva lack of clarity
19:10* vektorgoes to get beer and watch hockey
19:11* paperclipwaves the truce flag
19:12<vektor>toronto v detroit
19:12<paperclip>mdz_: i won't say the R*TV word again..
19:12<mdz_>vektor: under the label "copyright reform"?
19:12<mdz_>paperclip: talk about (or buy) what you want
19:12<dmz>there is macrovision for component video
19:13<dmz>i see someone asked about it...
19:13<vektor>mdz: i'm aware of some people closer to the issue who say it's not going to be like the US, but I'm scared to say more.
19:13<vektor>dmz: oh.
19:13* papercliphas a daewoo with modded firmware
19:13<vektor>dmz: You can change a parameters in the bttv driver to disable it on incoming signals. :)
19:13<mdz_>vektor: scared?
19:13<vektor>mdz: I'm not yet, no.
19:13<mdz_>vektor: will the canadian secret police break down your door? ;-)
19:13<vektor>I hope not.
19:14<vektor>Apparently I used to be on an RCMP list of 'suspected hackers'.
19:14<vektor>Maybe they will come bust 'movietime'.
19:14* mdz_tries to picture a policeman on horseback investigating "cyber-crime"
19:14<paperclip>they recently had a pornvideo bust here..
19:14* vektorbahs some more
19:14<paperclip>cops rented the nastiest butt slam vids they could..
19:15<paperclip>made 12 jurors watch some 7 hours..
19:15<paperclip>then the video store won.. as they were above local standards..
19:16<dmz>vektor: some of the first dvd players with component out didnt have macrovision on the output
19:16<dmz>then they added it to everything
19:17<dmz>and some older tv's dont like the component with macrovision
19:17<paperclip>you don't need special cables for component do you?
19:17<vektor>dmz: That sounds really ass stupid.
19:17<paperclip>they are just rca jacks eh?
19:17<vektor>paperclip: It requires 75-ohm I think..
19:17<vektor>Don't use audio cables.
19:17<vektor>You'll get reflections.
19:17<dmz>im not sure what someone with that problem does
19:17<dmz>some kind of box i guess
19:18<vektor>You can use BNC cable I think and just refit the ends though, if you have old networking cable.
19:18<vektor>But don't quote me on that :)
19:18* paperclipquotes that
19:18<dmz>nah thats 50ohm
19:18<vektor>Oh well. :)
19:18<dmz>cable tv coax is 75 tho
19:18<vektor>Well that might be useful :)
19:18<vektor>Fucking BNC to RCA ends are hard to find.
19:18<vektor>I hate that.
19:18<vektor>My oscilloscope has BNC ins...
19:19<paperclip>well.. on that note..
19:19* paperclippretends to clean up
19:19* vektorgoes back to beer+hockey
19:19<dmz>vektor: i need to look up how the component macrovision works..
19:20<vektor>dmz: Me too. I had no clue.
19:20<dmz>macrovision patents everything
19:20<dmz>including ways to remove it
19:20<vektor>I thought macrovision was based on screwing with the colour encoding of a composite signal.
19:20<dmz>then they sue ppl who make the boxes
19:20<dmz>there are lots of different kinds
19:20<dmz>of macrovison
19:21<vektor>Yeah, well, that's all stupid.
19:21<vektor>So I'll just use movietime.
19:21<paperclip>was ist movietime?
19:22<dmz>the signal doesnt meet the spec its supposed to so duh things dont work
19:22<dmz>my tv is super picky about sync
19:22<vektor>paperclip: My DVD player. Does realtime 3:2 pulldown corerction.
19:22<vektor>paperclip: It sucks ass and you don't want to use it. But if you want to help develop it that would kick.
19:22<dmz>and it will lose it on certain dvds in certain spots
19:23<vektor>The deinterlacing is quite cool.
19:23<paperclip>i thought you were refering to a movie rental place..
19:23<paperclip>thus my lame porno bust story =)
19:24<dmz>vektor: sound like something that needs to be stuck together with mplayer
19:25<paperclip>my there is a load of info about movietime
19:25<vektor>there is??
19:25<vektor>dmz: yes it does, doesn't it.
19:25<vektor>well, the source is open! :-)
19:25* vektorhasn't had much time
19:25<vektor>i've been working alot though on tvtime
19:25<vektor>which will soon have 3:2 pulldown correction also
19:26<vektor>there's actually a website for tvtime at least :)
19:27<paperclip>ohh.. and a picture..
19:27* paperclipgoes back to pretend cleaning
19:28* vektorcoding
19:28<vektor>oh, and beer+hockey
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19:30<soleblaze>anyone here?
19:38<nevertheless>where does mythtv take the station to tune in from the db data?
19:39<soleblaze>from the mysql data?
19:39<soleblaze>no clue
19:39<nevertheless>which field of the chanel data contains the tuner setting?
19:39<soleblaze>I'm not familiar with how it handles mysql
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21:10<Chutt>ok, so the guy that's complaining about two tuner cards not working has both set to use the same /dev/dsp device?
21:10<Chutt>well, duh.
21:11<Chutt>and apparently the fact that you need to have a working system is too complicated for some poeple
21:11<Chutt>i should make a mythtv-clueless list
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21:29<mdz_>vektor: how does the 3:2 pulldown correction in movietime work?
21:57<vektor>Do you know how pulldown is encoded on DVDs?
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22:15<mdz_>vektor: no, I do not. but I am interested to learn :-)
22:16<mdz_>vektor: I understand what 3:2 pulldown is
22:16<mdz_>vektor: but I don't see why DVD should be special
22:20-!-m0tion [] has joined #mythtv
22:20<vektor>Well, you know that 3:2 pulldown is where given a 24fps film you output 59.94 interlaced stream.
22:20<m0tion>hey, is there a TV tuner card I can use to support over 125 channels?
22:21<bigguy>m0tion: digital TV?
22:21<vektor>And you do this by slowing the film down to 23.976fps and then showing every second frame for three fields, and every other frame for two fields.
22:21<m0tion>bigguy: yea, i have digital cable
22:21<bigguy>m0tion: none that I know of
22:21<vektor>m0tion: Digital cable doesn't output an analog signal over RF like that, does it?
22:21<bigguy>you will have to do what others have done
22:21<vektor>m0tion: Doesn't it just output a single channel and have its own built-in tuner?
22:21<mdz_>vektor: right
22:21<m0tion>use the box they provide and they do a little gay IR interface to it?
22:21<vektor>mdz: Ok.
22:21<mdz_>vektor: I read "3:2 pulldown for dummies"
22:22<mdz_>or some such
22:22<m0tion>vektor: i dunno man, I just know that it's time warner and I get like, up to 999 channels
22:22<vektor>mdz: So, DVDs have a special mode where you can encode a 23.976fps progressive stream of frames, and have flags to indicate which frames to show for three fields, and which to show for two.
22:22<bigguy>either interface directly with the box with serial cable if available or get on of those ir kits and use lirc to change the chan
22:22<vektor>m0tion: Yeah but you don't change channels using your TV's tuner.
22:22<vektor>m0tion: So, same applies to capture cards. You cahnge channels on the digital cable box.
22:22<m0tion>yea, thats not so great =\
22:23<m0tion>how come all the tv tuner cards available seem like they such? aren't there any that support HDTV?
22:23<mdz_>vektor: ah, to save space then?
22:23<vektor>mdz: And better compression!
22:23<m0tion>such = suck
22:23-!-Administrator [] has joined #mythtv
22:23<vektor>mdz: However, you can _also_ encode 29.97fps interlaced and the source might actually be 3:2 pulldown content.
22:23-!-Administrator is now known as Echo465
22:23<vektor>mdz: Follow me so far?
22:23<mdz_>vektor: yes
22:23<mdz_>vektor: but you would want to do the pulldown yourself for best results, right?
22:24<vektor>mdz: Ah, you sound like me :)
22:24<vektor>mdz: No, see, 3:2 pulldown is _bad_
22:24<vektor>mdz: For computers that is.
22:24<mdz_>vektor: or you could encode at 24fps :-)
22:24<m0tion>well, can anyone recommend a particular card for use with MythTV? WinTV or ATI TV Wonder VE?
22:24<vektor>mdz: You _want_ to play back the 24fps stream.
22:24<bigguy>m0tion: there are hdtv cards I believe but they still don't work with anything over 125 chans
22:24<vektor>mdz: Since you get full resolution and smooth pans.
22:24<mdz_>vektor: but how do you display the 24fps on a TV?
22:24<mdz_>m0tion: hardware recommendation is a tricky business
22:25<mdz_>m0tion: at this point, we would all be really pleased if you would go out and buy something that nobody else has tried and tell us if it works well :-)
22:25<vektor>mdz: Ok, I feel like I've got myself in a bad situation in this conversation. :)
22:25<bigguy>look at what v4l supports
22:25<vektor>mdz: TV output is different from CRT output.
22:25<mdz_>vektor: naturally
22:26<m0tion>yea, i've looked for information on that, does it use V4L or V4L2? and whats the difference
22:26<mdz_>vektor: but film is film
22:26<vektor>mdz: If you're a DVD player outputting to an interlaced TV, you just do what the flags say. That's it, no questions asked.
22:26<vektor>mdz: movietime's "correction" is all for playing back on a progressive monitor.
22:26<mdz_>m0tion: it uses v4l
22:26<vektor>m0tion: V4L2 is a work-in-progress.
22:26<mdz_>I don't know much about v4l2, except that it is rather new and requires a patch
22:26<vektor>m0tion: Some card drivers support both, and some weird cards only support V4L2 stuff.
22:27<vektor>m0tion: But basically, the API was only "finalized" like two weeks ago for most people.
22:27<vektor>m0tion: V4L2 is a 2.6 thing now.
22:27<m0tion>oh, i see, i didn't know it was so recent
22:27<vektor>Well, it's been around for a long time.
22:27<vektor>But it wasn't widely accepted.
22:27<vektor>And it still isn't.
22:28<vektor>Basically, a bunch of people were releasing v4l2 drivers and nobody was using it kinda, etc etc. Big mess.
22:28<vektor>Two weeks ago finally Gerd and some others decided "we want this officially in 2.6" and we did some reworking of the spec.
22:28<vektor>So, it should be all good for 2.6.
22:28<mdz_>vektor: so why aren't they encoded at 24fps in the first place?
22:28<vektor>V4L2 itself has been around for years.
22:28<mdz_>vektor: is it that hard for consumer players to display it correctly?
22:28<vektor>mdz: Whoa whoa :)
22:29<vektor>mdz: Are we talking hardware players or software players?
22:29<mdz_>so I have this film, which is 24fps. I want to transfer the film to DVD. at what point do I get it into my head that doing it at 29.97 instead?
22:29<mdz_>vektor: consumer (hardware). mass-market stuff
22:30<vektor>Ok, first off, NTSC DVDs are built for playback on 59.94hz interlaced displays.
22:30<vektor>The data can be encoded at 29.97fps or 23.976fps, but in both cases it is _explicit_ about how to display it at 59.94hz.
22:30<vektor>The 23.976 mode is for better quality motion vectors and smaller encoded files.
22:31<vektor>It also happens to be nicer for software DVD players, since they don't need to deinterlace.
22:31<mdz_>oh, so some DVDs are at almost-24fps
22:31<vektor>However, it is sometimes advantageous to expand pulldown material to interlaced 29.97fps in the encoding.
22:31<mdz_>or is that potential that nobody uses?
22:31<vektor>Since it looks identical on a TV.
22:32<vektor>Most DVDs from films are pulldown at 23.976fps encoded framerate.
22:32<vektor>However, lots will randomly have little bits at video speed.
22:32<vektor>Like, my Akira disc.
22:32<vektor>They did some editing out of flicker at video speed, I think.
22:32<vektor>So basically every 5 minutes or so you see about 20 interlaced frames.
22:32<vektor>For a hardware DVD player outputting to a TV this is no problem, since the DVD tells it exactly what to do.
22:33<vektor>But on a computer, it's much better if I can just show the original 23.976fps sequence progressively. My monitor is at 85hz.
22:34<vektor>So, in movietime I keep track of the pulldown sequence during the progressive 23.976fps material, then when I see an interlaced frame, I assume the sequence continues, and start doing image analysis and heuristics to detect the pulldown sequence, and reverse it if I can.
22:34<vektor>Does that make sense?
22:34<vektor>It's difficult because alot of content on DVDs is supposed to be at 29.97fps interlaced.
22:34<vektor>Since you have like documentaries shot on DV or betacam, or other legitimate video content.
22:34<vektor>Lots of the graphics for the DVD menus etc is all interlaced video.
22:35<vektor>Also, a real problem case for my pulldown detection is the Mallrats DVD.
22:35<vektor>It has a special 'angle' where you see a picture-in-picture of the directors talking about the movie, while the movie is going on.
22:35<vektor>So, the picture-in-picture is 29.97fps interlaced, but MOST of the frame is the movie, which is 3:2 pulldown interlaced content!
22:35<vektor>So, my image heuristics say "hey, that's pulldown!" and then it all looks like shit.
22:36<vektor>Well, the movie looks fine but the picture-in-picture video looks all interlaced and crappy :)
22:36<vektor>Am I making sense?
22:36<vektor>There are lots of other evil cases.
22:36<mdz_>vektor: hmm
22:36<mdz_>vektor: this sucks
22:37<vektor>There are lots of things that suck about deinterlacing.
22:37<vektor>Since, it's really nice if you can find the 24fps source.
22:37<mdz_>it all seems needlessly complex
22:37<vektor>But if you get it wrong you're fucked.
22:37<vektor>Well, I can also pretend it's a TV.
22:37<vektor>And just 'always deinterlace'.
22:37<mdz_>TV sucks
22:38<vektor>And play at 59.94fps to your monitor.
22:38<vektor>But doing that nicely is expensive, but at least it will look 'as good as your TV'.
22:38<vektor>The thing about pulldown correction is that when you get it right, it looks fucking awesome.
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22:38<vektor>I mean, compare a 23.976fps encoded DVD on your PC to your TV. It's nice and clear, and hopefully, the pans are nice and smooth.
22:38<vektor>We try hard in movietime anyway :)
22:38<mdz_>but that is all work that you need to do in order to undo what has been done in production of the DVD, to prepare it for TV
22:39<vektor>Are you saying "how come my $200 DVD player works just fine?"
22:39<mdz_>because I don't have a DVD player
22:39<vektor>Then I don't understand your question.
22:39<mdz_>we're back to "so I have this 24fps film..."
22:39<vektor>If your output is a TV then your life is _easy_.
22:39<vektor>I have a 24fps film.
22:40<vektor>I slow it down to 23.976fps.
22:40<mdz_> so I have this film, which is 24fps. I want to transfer the film to DVD. at what point do I get it into my head that doing it at 29.97 instead?
22:40<vektor>I encode the frames to progressive images on the DVD.
22:40<mdz_>why do I do this?
22:40<vektor>Well, you're making an NTSC DVD, right?
22:40<mdz_>rather than preserving the original form of the material?
22:40<vektor>Because you're making an NTSC DVD.
22:40<mdz_>I guess I don't understand why DVD has to have a format like NTSC
22:40<vektor>Or are you making a PAL DVD?
22:40<vektor>Because we need cheap players. Players can't convert from some beautiful format to TV format themselves.
22:41<vektor>They're simple machines.
22:41<mdz_>rather than just representing the source material
22:41<vektor>Because then DVD players would be expensive.
22:41<mdz_>ok, I asked that a long time ago and I don't think you answered :-)
22:41<vektor>Ok :)
22:41<mdz_><mdz_> vektor: is it that hard for consumer players to display it correctly?
22:41<mdz_>the answer, apparently, being "yes"
22:41<vektor>Consumer players are simple.
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22:41<vektor>The answer is not yes.
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22:41<vektor>The answer is that consumer players have it easy because their output is a TV.
22:42<vektor>These "progressive scan" DVD players are a little different.
22:42<mdz_>it seems unforgivable to me that the digital format for DVD has to be tainted by TV
22:42<vektor>There are alot of things I don't understand about them.
22:42<vektor>Well, that's the market right?
22:42<vektor>What would be the point of a digital TV format if it didn't work on TV?
22:42<vektor>DVDs are not for films they're for home users :)
22:42<vektor>And most people at home own TVs.
22:43<vektor>Like, you can't give your DVD player a 15fps MPEG file.
22:43<vektor>It won't work. :)
22:43<vektor>Unless they do some special work to help that out...
22:43<mdz_>but playing back a 15fps MPEG file is easy
22:44<vektor>Well, I guess some players can do it.
22:44<mdz_>it seems like a bad tradeoff to me
22:44<vektor>But it's not allowed in MPEG2, and definitely not NTSC DVD.
22:44<vektor>NTSC DVD is only 23.976fps or 29.97fps and that's it.
22:44<mdz_>I guess the gains in simplifying the player must be very significant
22:44<vektor>They are.
22:44<vektor>I mean, DVD players are $125 or so here now.
22:45<paperclip>$80 at for a simi-decent one that can be made VCR friendly
22:47<mdz_>paperclip: 80 paperclip dollars is approximately 125 vektor dollars
22:50<brtb>or the walmart-special apex 1100w macrovision/regionlock free for $56US... not the best but it works
22:52<vektor>mdz: So does this make sense then?
22:52<vektor>mdz: I can tell you some of the really horrid cases if you like :)
22:52<vektor>Like, for example, I have one DVD with some 23.976fps content that's interlaced!!! :(
22:53<paperclip>pulldown is required because of the interlacing?
22:53<vektor>Although I'm pretty sure that violates some spec somewhere.
22:53<vektor>paperclip: Pulldown is just how you convert 24fps movies to 59.94fps video.
22:53<mdz_>vektor: thanks for the explanation
22:53<vektor>paperclip: It's required because they're different framerates.
22:53<vektor>mdz: Anytime! It took me most of last year to understand this crap. :(
22:54<vektor>mdz: I gave a 'talk' on this and demonstrated some stuff about it at OLS this year.
22:54<mdz_>it's required because they're different framerates and not even an even multiple
22:54<paperclip>why 3:2 ?
22:54<vektor>OLS == ottawa linux symposium.
22:54<mdz_>vektor: unfortunately, I couldn't make it to OLS
22:54<paperclip>not like 23.976:59.94 are that ratio..
22:54<mdz_>paperclip: 12*2 = 24 and 12*3 = 36
22:54<mdz_>paperclip: and 24 + 36 = 60
22:55<vektor>And since TV isn't exactly 60
22:55<vektor>You get 23.976
22:55<vektor>North americans actually get used to the 3/2/3/2/ strobe pattern.
22:55<vektor>But some europeans are quite bothered by it.
22:55<mdz_>so frames are duplicated in a 2, 3, ... pattern
22:55<vektor>If they see north american TVs that is.
22:56<vektor>It's actually quite annoying on the credit rolls at the ends of movies.
22:56<vektor>At least, I notice it now.
22:56<paperclip>ahh.. so that's not a ratio
22:56<vektor>They definitely wiggle up the screen.
22:56<mdz_>vektor: they do indeed
23:02<vektor>mmx is fun.
23:09<vektor>mmx crossfade done
23:09<vektor>Chutt might like that one