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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2003-08-11

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00:04<bigguy>heh Hardocp linked to
00:20<paulproteus>w3 0wn .
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01:58<witten>is a higher rank number or a lower rank number confer higher priority to a program?
01:58<witten>it's totally unclear
01:58<Timon>higher rank, higher priority
01:59<witten>thank you
02:00<witten>is there a UI somewhere in 0.10 for setting up auto-deletion based on rankings?
02:00<Timon>I don't use releases
02:01<witten>heh ok, well in cvs then?
02:01<Timon>Dunno :-)
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02:01<witten>ok :)
02:01<Timon>I haven't fired up the TV portion. I'm working on a bunch of code for the LCD stuff
02:03<witten>lcd stuff?
02:03<Timon>I'm doing an overhaul of the LCD support in myth
02:04<witten>what lcd support does myth have?
02:04<witten>I'm not familiar with it
02:05<Timon>It interfaces with LCDProc to display stats on the LCD, allow a user to navigate menus, select music (in development), etc
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05:32<Ku-less>2003-08-11 04:27:05 Could not open audio device: /dev/dsp
05:33<Ku-less>Should I unload and reload my sound drivers?
05:35<Ku-less>Well, that did resolve it, though I'm not sure why I had the problem in the first place.
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10:51<thor___>Chutt, if you catch this on scrollback ... can you send me an e-mail if there's anything pressing ...
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11:16<vektor>Chutt: You there?
11:16<vektor>Do you know what the deal is with these nForce2 motherboards in Linux?
11:17<Chutt>what about em?
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11:17<vektor>Chutt: I've had multiple reports of crashes with them.
11:17<Chutt>my nforce 1 board's been horribly stable for well over a year
11:18<vektor>Yes, the nforce1 seems fine according to google.
11:18<vektor>It seems like DMA on the nforce2 is unstable.
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11:25<Chutt>i haven't really had any reports of it being that bad
11:25<Chutt>just mainly people bitching about the drivers
11:27<vektor>It seems like they get more unstable the more you push the DMA.
11:27<vektor>So like for tvtime we upload a fuckload right, so it's kinda a stress of the AGP or whatever.
11:28<vektor>That's my theory anyway.
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11:49<kja>My nForce2 board works great (Shuttle)!!
11:50<vektor>kja: With what video card?
11:51<vektor>The trouble seems to be with the ATI drivers.
11:51<kja>Chutt: I've been plugging in some cache and redone tuning (only dvb-s for now)
11:51<vektor>kja: Oh, and what kernel?
11:51<Chutt>why the hell would you use an ati card on an nvidia motherboard? :p
11:52<vektor>Hey, I just write the software. ;)
11:52<kja>have gone from ~1200ms to ~400-500 for the tuning part (channels on the same transponder does not get tuned at all)
11:52<Chutt>vektor, seriously, the ati drivers don't play well with those boards
11:52<mikegrb>Chutt: that was funny
11:52<Chutt>that's a known bug
11:52<vektor>Chutt: Oh ok, which ATI drivers? The ones in X4.3 ?
11:52<Chutt>you basically have to turn of agp, from what i understand
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11:52<Chutt>most people just use nvidia cards, so it's rather a complete non-issue :p
11:53<kja>vektor: onboard geforce 4 mx + redhat stock 2.4.20-8
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11:54<vektor>Thanks guys.
11:55<Chutt>kja, that's cool. did you ever move that stream reading fix into avformatdecoder.cpp?
11:56<kja>no, have not done that (yet)
11:56<kja>ed. wildgoose, which had the problem, came to the conqlusion that it was his board...
11:57<kja>I want to remove the dropping of packets in ProcessData first, takes on average ~2000ms
11:58<kja>Do you know if other packets than those with SEQ_HEADER has the parameters (w/h/fps)?
12:00<Chutt>not right off, no
12:02<kja>how much time do I have to complete my overhaul of the dvb part, if it should make it into .11?
12:03<Chutt>today or tomorrow
12:03<kja>k, i'll code on then :)
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13:04<tmk>i just grabbed the .10 release
13:04<tmk>i didn't really read them ;)
13:04* tmkflies by the seat of his pants
13:05<Chutt>there's just some optimizations for mpeg2 playback
13:05<tmk>ah cool
13:05<Chutt>that you'll probably want to use, if you're still using that ancient machine
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13:05--> Youare now talking on #mythtv
13:05-!-Topic for #mythtv is
13:05-!-Topic for #mythtv set by Timon at Sun Aug 3 20:08:51
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13:14<Chutt>tmk, oh, and make sure you're running the UI at 800x600
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13:16<thor__>Chutt, got your emails ... was that the only problem?
13:17<Chutt>thor, hey
13:17<Chutt>so, everything works now
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13:21<thor__>just trying an update to see if you took out that cout Ieft in by mistake
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14:24<kja>k, i'll send it to him then
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14:28<kja>hope he's around then...
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14:39<robertj>is there a way I can get a play by play of what's happening when mythgame searches for roms?
14:40<robertj>I've got the db inserted properly and told it to serach for games but I cant tell if anything is happening
14:40<robertj>i've only got 1 rom in /mnt/roms/
14:40<robertj>it's not showing up in the mysql table either
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14:42<Chutt>you can edit the source and add in some debugging statements
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14:45<Chutt>thor, everything's working great now
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14:46<thor_>you already finished a transcode of something?
14:46<daralc>i have a black screen for when i try to watch live tv
14:46<daralc>2003-08-11 14:46:16 adding: localhost.localdomain as a player 0
14:46<daralc>ERROR opening file '/home/mythtvfiles/ringbuf1.nuv' in ThreadedFileWriter.
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14:47<Chutt>i wonder what that could mean
14:47<Chutt>thor, yeah, works great
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14:49<thor_>Chutt, excellent ... so should I keep going (imdb name/graphics pulling, autoinsertion into mythVideo tables, a destination/directory dialog) and commiting ... or is 0.11 pending?
14:50<Chutt>do as much as you want
14:50<Chutt>i won't have time in the next couple days
14:50<Chutt>to do the release, at least
14:50<robertj>I dont seem to have a catver.ini from xmame, where is that supposed to come from
14:51<thor_>Chutt, ok ... will keep poking along
14:51<Chutt>robertj, downloaded elsewhere
14:54<daralc>i have a network connection and i am on the internet right now, but mythtv doesn't pull weather or program guides even though i have given them the informatin, they tie out
14:55<Chutt>daralc, mythfilldatabase times out?
14:55<Chutt>and did you fix the error you pasted in here?
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14:56<daralc>let me try mythfilldatabase
14:56<daralc>i am getting XMLTV errors in mythfilldatabase
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14:56<Chutt>and they are?
14:56<daralc>----------------- Start of XMLTV output -----------------
14:56<daralc>parameterless "use IO" deprecated at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.0/XML/ line 16
14:57<Chutt>so you basically have a broken install of xmltv.
14:57<daralc>i installed via apt-get install myth-suite
14:58<daralc>on rh9
14:59<courtlr>Where do the channel pictures that xmltv grabs locations for go when mythfilldatabase fetchs them?
15:01<robertj>Chutt: hrm, might want to add that to the readme
15:03<courtlr>I was looking into making a simple cookie based password protection for the mythweb, if I finish my patch should I send it to the mailing list?
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15:05<daralc>don't have that folder
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15:13<Chutt>courtlr, doesn't adding a password to the .htaccess work?
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16:03<techniq>could someone help me with a xmltv install problem?
16:03<hadees>whats your problem?
16:04<techniq>after running perl Makefile.PL, it won't create the makefile, although i think i've finally got all the required perl modules installed
16:04<techniq>i can post the lines i get back if you want, or msg them
16:04<Chutt>you should try to use the xmltv packages for your distribution
16:05<techniq>i just started using mandrake (came from suse), could you point me in a good rpm site for them?
16:05<techniq>i'm using 9.2beta2 right now
16:05<Chutt>they're linked to from the mythtv website.
16:06<techniq>I think i had tried the ones linked from there, but came back with problems
16:06<techniq>was it the one with a link for redhat taht are supposed to work with mandrake
16:06<techniq>to a site atrpms ?
16:07<Chutt>err, there's actual mandrake rpms
16:07<techniq>i'll look harder
16:10<techniq>all i see on here is using urpmi to satisfy the deps for xmltv, but then to move on to compile it from source
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16:14<techniq>I'm getting this error which i think is my problem: Parameterless "use IO" deprecated at /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.0/XML/ line 16
16:17<Chutt>those are the mandrake rpms
16:17<techniq>k, thanks alot
16:17<Chutt>but, i dunno if they'll work for 9.2
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16:25<robertj>can you force myth to rip cds to mp3 instead of ogg?
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16:26-!-Topic for #mythtv is
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16:29<sfr>robertj i'm just trying to implement ripping to mp3, but don't hold your breath, i don't really know what i'm doing ;)
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16:32<sfr>ok robertj just for you: robertj i'm just trying to implement ripping to mp3, but don't hold your breath, i don't really know what i'm doing ;)
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16:32<PeteCool>I'm getting this on the console when trying to play a recording with 5minutes ago'
16:32<PeteCool>ago's CVS: Audio buffer overflow, audio data lost!
16:32<PeteCool>get_buffer() failed (1 1073741824 2 (nil))
16:32<PeteCool>decoding error: -1 back from avcodec
16:32<PeteCool>Audio buffer overflow, audio data lost!
16:32<PeteCool>get_buffer() failed (1 1073741824 2 (nil))
16:32<Chutt>make distclean
16:32<Chutt>and try again
16:33<PeteCool>the bash history shows I did distclean before make'ing... but I'm trying again
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16:34<PeteCool>is it the only possible way to get those messages?
16:35<Chutt>i dunno
16:35<Chutt>it's something easy to do, though
16:35<Chutt>so might as well get that out of the way
16:35<Chutt>otherwise, you're going to be debugging some =)
16:39<daralc>i can't get xmltv to work, i installed the latest viersion but mythfilldatabase still didn't work
16:40<Chutt>ask the xmltv people
16:40<daralc>so its definately xmltv that is the problem?
16:41<Chutt>well, you're getting an error after it says 'begin of xmltv output'
16:41<Chutt>and before it says 'end of xmltv output'
16:41<Chutt>so, yes.
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16:43<daralc>nobody is in #xmltv
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16:43<Chutt>they have a users mailing list
16:43<daralc>what version of xmltv do you have on your machine?
16:43<Chutt>you probably want to check the archives to see if anyone else has had that particular problem.
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16:45<bbeattie_>how many cards does myth support at once? just 4?
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16:45<Chutt>the only limit is hardware.
16:45<daralc>what version of xmltv do you have on your machine?
16:46<Chutt>daralc, i told you where to go to get help.
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16:49<daralc>Chutt: I was just wondering what version you have in case I downloaded too recent of a version :)
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16:59<mdz__>Chutt: you thought I wouldn't notice if you snuck in more database updates
16:59-!-You are now known as mdz_
17:03<Chutt>they're not really updates
17:03<Chutt>just settings changes
17:04<Chutt>i wouldn't worry about changing things
17:04<kja>:( Ben didn't have the time, so I guess the changes won't make .11
17:06<Chutt>the mythchannels junk isn't going to either, so no worries.
17:06<mdz_>what is mythchannels anyway?
17:07<mdz_>is that to read channels from xawtv or something?
17:07<Chutt>i don't know
17:07<Chutt>last time i looked, i could barely read the code.
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17:07<kja>Would have preffered if Ramon did patches for setup instead, but....
17:07<mdz_>hmm, google mentions some kind of scanning functionality
17:07<mdz_>but the messages don't make much sense
17:08<mdz_>if it could automatically determine the right freqtable, and which channels actually exist, that'd be useful
17:08<kja>If you where to manage 2000 channels on a satelite dish it would have been ok
17:08<Chutt>it doesn't integrate into the current codebase at all
17:09<Chutt>which is the biggest thing
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17:10<kja>He's going to have a hard time making it merge with MythTV when that time comes
17:10<Chutt>and it still uses mplayer for channel previews
17:10<Chutt>which, well, isn't acceptible =)
17:13<kja>Do anyone know who 'Martin Smith' is?
17:13<kja>This is a ok guide for newcomers to DVB, but it should be extended with specifics for Myth...
17:16<kja>I'll go play with some code again..making a satelite search thingy
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17:48<PeteCool>Chutt: make distclean didn't find the libavcodec errors :(
17:50<PeteCool>find == fix
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17:55<PeteCool>when I do a bt for the frontend about this... how many times do you want the message to appear before I ^C? once, three, ten? or does it not matter?
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18:26<BenB>hi kja. I thought you were sleeping already.
18:27<kja>No Ben, won't be for a couple of hours..
18:27<kja>Although it's certenly getting late.
18:28<kja>So, there where a thread on mythtv-dev about splitting the pids in channel_dvb,
18:29<kja>which you agreed to...if we did it properly, right?
18:29<BenB>yes. can you explan why that is needed?
18:29<BenB>it's OK with me, if you really want to and it's done properly, but I still don't see why it's needed.
18:30<kja>1. My card is a Full card, which needs to know video from audio when combined with a cam
18:30<kja>Hence the if's in the current code
18:30<BenB>what happens, if you tell the CAM to decode the video streams as "OTHER"?
18:31<BenB>(not "..._VIDEO")
18:31<kja>Backend Stuffed up in RingRequestBlock........
18:31<BenB>it shouldn't matter to the CAM, shoudl it?
18:31<BenB>hm, I see.
18:31<BenB>and that goes away as soon as you decode the video PID as ..._VIDEO?
18:31<kja>Yes, when I set up the cam I have to send it the program map table from the currently selected channel
18:32<BenB>I wonder what they are doign there in the CAM.
18:32<kja>this the cam then matches (combines) with what settings the av7110 has stored
18:32<BenB>but ok, if that's needed for decryption, that's of course a good reason.
18:33<BenB>so, basically do what Ramon proposed, just change the field names the way I proposed (and add the few new ones I mentioned), ...
18:34<BenB>then read them *all* in DVBChannel and add them all to the PID string.
18:34<BenB>so that when a user enters a PID for AC3, it is actually being recorded.
18:34<BenB>(not ignored, as with Ramon's patch)
18:34<kja>So, why should we recombine them in the class (where back to scratch, exept we know the order)
18:35<kja>Of course!
18:35<BenB>you can store them separately, if needed, just use them all ;-)
18:35<BenB>heh, you say "Of course", but I couldn't make Ramon understand that after several hours of discussion and explaining it several times.
18:37<kja>As I said earlyer, which he was doing patches for setup instead of making mythchannels
18:37<BenB>so, a channel change takes 5-7 seconds?? or 1.3?
18:37<BenB>does the backend need so long or the frontend?
18:38<kja>The total, from pause to play takes 5-7s
18:38<kja>And it's spread all over...
18:38<BenB>how long does the backend need (check the output)
18:38<kja>some offcourse is in prebuffering
18:39<kja>The tuning (FetchDvb...+DvbTune) took 1,2 before, that is down to 4-500 now, 1ms on same transponder
18:40<BenB>only these 2 functions took 1.2 secs or the whole backend?
18:40<kja>Those 2
18:41<kja>Kinda slow...
18:42<kja>You do see my point for doing so many changes then?
18:43<BenB>depends :-)
18:43<BenB>how much did FetchDVB take and how much DVBTune?
18:43<BenB>how much of that does tune_it take?
18:44<kja>tune_it was the bummer in DVBTune ~700 before
18:44<kja>so, about the rest on FetchDVB
18:45<BenB>fetchDVB makes only 2 queries, which you could even combine into one query (asking for 2 rows in 2 tables).
18:45<BenB>using JOIN
18:46<kja>But SQL is not scaled for tiny it takes time anyway
18:46<BenB>before you rewrite everythign, please find out what part *exactly* wastes the time.
18:47<BenB>even if you did fix it, it's important to know what caused the problem, to avoid it in other places.
18:47<kja>And mdz mentioned that there were a lot of other (NULL) query's because of icompatability
18:49<kja>You are not suggesting I should disect my sql server?
18:49<BenB>no, just insert some time output statements at:
18:49<BenB>- the beginning of fetchDVB
18:49<kja>When I store the data in vectors, the results are much better, I belive that says it all
18:49<BenB>- right after // query DB
18:50<BenB>- around each db_conn->exec()
18:50<BenB>- pthread_mutex_unlock(&db_lock);
18:51<BenB>- at then end of fetchdvb
18:51<kja>you are suggesting that what takes time is the connection
18:51<BenB>that's most likely to take time, not?
18:51<kja>To do this, couple of min
18:52<kja>ahh, better go to bed now, starting to walk all over ;)
18:52<BenB>ok, good night
18:53<kja>not yet, i'll try to sharpen up
18:53<kja>Chutt: I was under the impression that Myth only connects once to the database?
18:54<BenB>kja: I meant the (loopback) network roundtrip time.
18:55<BenB>and asking the SQL server in the first place.
18:55<BenB>what db_conn->exec() does.
18:56<BenB>(that does *not* open a connection, it merely uses it)
18:56<BenB>it doesn't relogin etc.
18:56<kja>yea, so where does the time go?
18:57<BenB>that's what *you* need to find out! :)
18:57<kja>What I suggested the last time, QVariant
18:57<BenB>I haven?t heard you saying so.
18:58<BenB>well, if you do what I suggested, you'll know for sure.
18:58<kja>no, the last time...
18:58<kja>yea, i can slap some timers there
18:58<kja>want me to do that now?
18:59<BenB>before we further discuss about any changes, anyways :)
18:59<kja>void MythContext::KickDatabase(QSqlDatabase *db)
18:59<kja> QString query("SELECT NULL;");
18:59<kja> for(unsigned int i = 0 ; i < 2 ; ++i, usleep(50000)) {
18:59<kja> QSqlQuery result = db->exec(query);
18:59<kja> if (result.isActive())
18:59<kja> break;
18:59<kja>sorry for doing that
19:00<BenB>but it's good that you did. So, it does *another* useless query in KickDatabase().
19:00<kja>+ the sleep
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19:01<BenB>(I already suspected soemthing like that, that's why I said you should make a timer before that and after it.
19:01<BenB>the sleep is only used, if the query failed.
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19:01<kja>This is what mdz was talking about
19:01<BenB>actually, not.
19:02<kja>Chutt said: Cache away
19:02<BenB>well, first try to fix the code without caching. maybe you don't need it.
19:03<BenB>as I said, caching always has the problem of updating your cache.
19:03<BenB>how do you want mythchannels to make dvbchannels update its cache?
19:04<kja>[23:05] <Chutt> the mythchannels junk isn't going to either, so no worries.
19:05<BenB>isn't going to what? get checked it? or update the cache?
19:05<BenB>too bad. I haven't looked at the code (apart from what I commented on), but the functionaliry is very much needed.
19:06<BenB>but still, something like that will be needed one day, and you'll have to worry then.
19:06<kja>I agree on that, but he should have started with setup!
19:06<BenB>or the poor programmer who does it will then have to worry instead of you.
19:06<kja>mysql> insert into channel_dvb .... ;)
19:06<BenB>what I am saying is: caching does have significant costs, so try to avoid it, if possible.
19:07<kja>yea, it does suck up memory, but we do some caching in myth on a larger scale, so...
19:07<BenB>heh, even *I* hate to execute SQL commands manually, no way a normal user will do that :).
19:07<BenB>not just because of mem, but updating, as I said.
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19:08<kja>For now, we could even have put together a script that uses scan
19:08<BenB>so, whatever. do you have results from your timing?
19:08<kja>Yes, there will be some setbacks
19:09<BenB>that's my point. why have setbacks, if we can achive the same without them?
19:09<BenB>did you insert the timers now and trun the code?
19:09<kja>no, don't have timing results, currently running my code
19:10<BenB>ok, tell mem when you have resulsts.
19:11<BenB>yay, somebody found out when the crappy saa7134 driver doesn't record sound at the begining.
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19:14<kja>arg, forgot i had messed with the query, recompiling
19:16<kja>mutes 0ms
19:16<kja>kick 1ms
19:16<kja>query 196ms
19:16<kja>ready 0ms
19:16<kja>this is not with parsing of options, as thats not the same in my code
19:16<BenB>BTW: If you really, really *have* to cache, then just use a map of DVBTunerSettings, indexed by channum or chanid.
19:16<BenB>em, that was the point, to find out how long the *current* code needs.
19:17<BenB>and which places of it.
19:17<kja>but it's even faster with the new types, data already set up, ready to be put to a ioctl
19:17<BenB>uit the difference is 2ms, then I'd rather take the easier to read code than the faster one.
19:20<BenB>so, could you please do the timing on the (otherwise) unmodifed code from CVS?
19:20<BenB>but what you measured suggests that a single query costs 200ms, which is much longer than I though. so, you could save 200 ms by just combining the 2 queries in fetchdvb.
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19:21<BenB>usign a join instead of 2 independent selects.
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19:23<kja>reverting code / edit db / sone done
19:24<kja>yea, I see your point
19:25<hadees>whats up with mythradio?
19:25<hadees>did it just fall off the face of the earth?
19:26<kja>did you like the autodetect of cardtype ben?
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19:31<BenB>I haven't looked closely enough for that.
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19:34<BenB>you have some affection for infinitive loops.
19:35<kja>yea ;)
19:35<BenB> while (true)
19:35<BenB> {
19:35<kja>love them
19:35<BenB>(without enough escape statements)
19:36<BenB>I was being sacrastic ;)
19:36<kja>i'm stumped....
19:37<kja>the results
19:37<kja>all in tune
19:38<BenB>in tune? that's not a function.
19:38<kja>err tune_it
19:38<BenB>tune_it doesn't ask the databse.
19:39<kja>that's why i'm stumped
19:40<BenB>but I *really* need to go back to work now, I already wasted 2-3 hours on that by now.
19:40* kjashrinks to a peanutt, because he has coded for nothing
19:40<BenB>tell me when you have the results
19:40<kja>should I post them in the channel?
19:40<BenB>better in a query, I guess, if it's a lot of lines
19:41<kja>I did post it in a query...
19:42<BenB>but you said that was in tune_it, which doesn't make sense.
19:42<BenB>if fetchDVB indeed takes only 1ms, then you really rewrote the whole class for nothing.
19:42<kja>open: 0tune: 1032
19:43<BenB>which is exactly why I said you should do the timing tests before we continue talking :)
19:43<kja>but i did the timing tests the other day!
19:43<BenB>abnd you had other results back then?
19:43<kja>I swear on my grandma's grave that i got other results
19:44<BenB>then find out what went wrong :)
19:44<kja>or what went the right way?
19:46<kja>I'm really sorry to have wasted a couple of ours of your time once again Ben!
19:46<BenB>well, it's not out yet what happened.
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19:55<kja>don't know, can't seem to reproduce it now...
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20:44<wishie>mythtv requires X ?
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20:46<kwenda>at the risk of making myself look foolish
20:46<kwenda>is anyone else having problems with getting guide data
20:47<kwenda>e.g.: zap2it failed to give us a page: 500:Internal Server Error
20:47<Chutt>which version of xmltv are you using?
20:47<kwenda>happens with XMLTV 0.5.14 (tv_grab_na V3.20030629) and 0.4.15
20:47<kwenda>err, 0.5.15 rather
20:48<Chutt>same thing here
20:48<wishie>so mythtv requires X ? or can i run it in a framebuffer ?
20:49<Chutt>wishie, it requires x, for the most part
20:49<kwenda>oh... well i see i haven't asked THE silliest question of the night ;)
20:49<wishie>i only ask, to see if its worth my switching to mythtv
20:49<wishie>for my live cd..but it seems not.
20:49<Chutt>if someone bothered to write a sdl output method, it'd run on the framebuffer
20:49<kwenda>its strange as i can go to zap2it and get data by inputting my zip and i don't get a 500 error
20:49<Chutt>but, not running x is a really stupid reason
20:49<Chutt>since you're encoding video in real time
20:50<wishie>im using freevo on my live cd, in framebuffer.
20:50<Chutt>the additional overhead of x is meaningless.
20:50<Chutt>and the benefits of Xv generally outweigh even that
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20:50<Chutt>ie, no software scaling/colorspace conversion
20:52<Chutt>kwenda, errors like that are generally a temporary problem, but i dunno
20:52<kwenda>i figured as much; i've waited a few hours now and missed my shows
20:53<Chutt>you should have a week's worth of data already, unless this is your first time running things
20:53<matt_>grr...mplayer-k6 depends on the unstable libstdc++. the src depends on an unstable gcc 3.3 which depends on an unstable yadda yadda yadda
20:54<wishie>make your own mplayer then
20:54<Chutt>kwenda, you may want to ask on the xmltv list
20:54<kwenda>it ran correctly this morning at 5:12 out of cron so it was working then, but i installed another frontend and accidentally wiped all the guide data on my backend while running setup on it
20:54<kwenda>if you're seeing it too, Chutt, then it's probably something they'll notice before they get to reading their mailing list
20:55<Chutt>kwenda, not really. xmltv problems get discussed on the mythtv lists long before they show up anywhere else, generally =)
20:56<wishie>mythv doesnt seem to compile for me
20:56<Chutt>if sourceforge didn't suck and have the mailing list archives turned off, i'd know if it had come up yet
20:56<wishie>i get NuppelVideoPlayer errors
20:56<Chutt>wishie, such as?
20:56<wishie>hmm, appears its looking for lame.h
20:57<kwenda>hmm... i wish they didn't use zap2it, its seems very clunky and slow. but free is free
20:57<Chutt>wishie, ah, so you're not one to read docs =)
20:57* wishiebuilds lame.
20:58<Chutt>there's debs and mandrake/redhat rpms, and an official gentoo ebuild so you don't have to bother with all that junk
20:59<kwenda>you'd think for an app that gets downloaded 280 times a day that's still in beta... they'd have an irc channel
21:00<Chutt>i'd imagine most of the people downloading are users of other programs
21:00<kwenda>yeah i suppose that makes sense
21:00<kwenda>i can't really see anyone having a real use for the raw data
21:02<matt_>deb unstable main
21:02<matt_>is a good place to get lame, liblame0, and liblame-dev
21:02<matt_>i don't see any source packages for mplayer :-\
21:03<Chutt>hm, ok
21:03<Chutt>if i have time, 0.11's wednesday
21:03<wishie>matt_: just get it from and compile it..
21:03<Chutt>would it be too confusing if i went 0.10 -> 0.11 -> 1.0 ? =)
21:04<matt_>what about doing 1.0 rc's?
21:04<Timon>yes :-)
21:04<Chutt>i'm not a big fan
21:05<Timon>Though I do think its just about ready for 1.0
21:05<Chutt>maybe a 0.12 then for any bugfixes and polishing off the dvd ripper stuff
21:05* matt_hasn't gotten a chance to play with mythdvd yet
21:05<matt_>mostly because i don't have any dvd's
21:06<Chutt>works rather well, if you don't have two versions of transcode installed like i had =)
21:06<matt_>i think for a 1.0, people would expect dvd and (s)vcd playing work otb
21:06<Timon>Chutt: The massive LCD update should be ready in a few days. . . Though I won't bother until after .11 is out
21:06<matt_>s/work/to work/
21:07<Timon>matt_: I think for a free product, people shouldn't expect anything :-)
21:07<matt_>this is also true :)
21:07<-- dopezhas quit ()
21:07<Chutt>matt, they've always worked if someone wanted to spend 10 or 15 seconds editing the menu xml
21:07<Timon>I don't expect xmltv to work. . .
21:07<anduinw>free crap is still crap
21:08<Timon>I wouldn't call myth crap. Its actually one of the better os pieces of software out there.
21:08<anduinw>'m not
21:08<Timon>ok :-)
21:08<anduinw>but 1.0 should mean something
21:08<Chutt>i really need to move cvs one of these days
21:08<Chutt>snowman, get on it
21:08<Chutt>anduinw, it means 'feature completeness'
21:09<Chutt>to me, at least
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21:09<Timon>Chutt: Tired of your dsl getting hammered?
21:09<Chutt>and a reasonably low bug count, of course
21:09<Timon>I would agree with Chutt. It doesn't mean it has everything under the sun, but that things that are in it, work and work well.
21:10<anduinw>if you jumped to 1.0 rc 1 that would mean "feature complete" but still imply "in flux", otherwise plenty of people like me see < 1 as a work in progress but 1.0 as the first stable release.
21:10<Chutt>i don't like labelling things as rc, though
21:11<Chutt>and every release is a stable release =)
21:11<Timon>anduinw: I've seen plenty of os software that was < 1.0 that worked very well, very stable
21:11<Chutt>else i'd be putting stuff out a whole lot more often
21:11<Timon>anduinw: in flux == cvs
21:11<anduinw>ah, that is probably where we differ. Myth still crashes for me, not so regularly that I hate it, but often enough for me to notice.
21:11<Timon>anduinw: release, or cvs?
21:12<anduinw>timon - that just proves the authors are cautious :)
21:12<anduinw>cvs... only place I can make the changes I need
21:13<Chutt>you started looking at a qsocket replacement, btw?
21:13<Timon>I haven't had CVS crash for me in a while. . . Well since last night when I wrote something which caused a segfault :-)
21:13<anduinw>Then again part of my problem is that I'm also using the ivtv driver :)
21:13<Chutt>i haven't had that die on me recently
21:13<anduinw>Chutt - actually I'm working on it right now
21:14<Chutt>sweet, that'd be so nice to have
21:14<Timon>anduinw: I will be interested when you have it complete. (I presume your working on the lirc key event gizmo?)
21:15<Timon>The updates I have for the LCD stuff is using some of the code someone wrote for the LIRC stuff to bubble up events.
21:16<anduinw>I had a freak frontend crash just last night. Sadly I wasn't able to reproduce it and it feels icky to run the frontend under gdb all the time.
21:16<BenB>Chutt: the zap2it problem is know, somebody filed a bug, and bugmail seems to get copied to the mailinglist
21:16<Chutt>i was running it under valgrind trying to reproduce mdz's random crashes
21:16<Chutt>benb, thanks
21:17<Timon>How good is using the core files for debugging? That may be an option for you anduinw
21:17<anduinw>timon - I've done as much with lirc as I was planning. I was _thinking_ of add the fork/waitforpid thing in but someone else can do that really.
21:17<Chutt>cores under linux don't work
21:17<Chutt>for multithreaded programs
21:17<kwenda>BenB - is that the "zap2it failed to give us a page: 500:Internal Server Error
21:17<term>Chutt: do you know if it's been fixed in 2.6?
21:17<Chutt>unless you're using a magical non-existant combination of kernel, gdb, glibc, pthreads, etc
21:17<term>guess that's a no. :)
21:17<Chutt>term, it's occasionally worked, never for very long
21:18<Timon>anduinw: I thought someone was working on a generic key bubble up gizmo thingy
21:18<term>jvm developers must have a ball on Linux.
21:18<BenB>kwenda: "It apears as though Zap2it has made a change and XMLTV is not able to grab data. Yet I can view a guide on Zap2it's site. Is anyone else having these problems?"
21:19<term>damnit, they need to come out with that cheap pay service thing
21:19<Chutt>i haven't heard anything from them since june about that
21:19<kwenda>heh that's almost what i said when i entered the channel, benb
21:19<term>Chutt: they keep changing the format :(
21:19<Chutt>i should email em
21:20<anduinw>Timon - more generic than what I've sent in?
21:20<kwenda>likely we'll need a new xmltv version then, as zap2it is not likely to change back for us, correct?
21:20<Chutt>it's likely they didn't change anything major
21:20<Chutt>and it'll start working again in a day or so
21:20<Chutt>temporary problems happen a lot there
21:20<kwenda>no tv for me tonight then =(
21:21<Timon>anduinw: I haven't examined what you've sent in the past week or two.
21:21<anduinw>kwenda - heal they self
21:21<kwenda>ehh... what?
21:21<term>kwenda: doesn't the db fill ahead for almost 2 week's worth of data?
21:21<BenB>kwenda: why can't you use live-tv?
21:22<BenB>term: that, too.
21:22<BenB>kwenda: or a normal TV? :)
21:22<kwenda>livetv wont change channels without data, right?
21:22<BenB>sure it will
21:22<BenB>how about trying it? :)
21:22<Timon>it just won't have the osd info
21:22<kwenda>i did it said something about a QT Time error
21:22<anduinw>Timon - The event object is in with the lirc stuff but it is still just sending a Qt keycode up.
21:22<anduinw>kwenda - you have the source, granted it is icky perl, but...
21:23<kwenda>term, i don't have guide data because i ran setup on another frontend but had already edited the mysql.txt so it wiped the database
21:23<BenB>kwenda: oh. that's probably something else.
21:23<Timon>anduinw: that will be fine. I'll wait for it to get committed (Or has it already?) and I'll interface with it rather than doing my own hack.
21:23<term>kwenda: doh.
21:23<kwenda>and i have no normal only tv is a gateway destination 35 inch monitor that only has 1 input working on it, the SVGA
21:24<Chutt>install tvtime :p
21:24<kwenda>i -have- thought of this stuff, i promise =)
21:24<anduinw>Timon - I think that part is in, the cool mutting lirc events thing is the only thing not commited AFAIK
21:24<Timon>cool mutting lirc events thingy???
21:24<wishie>QSqlDatabase warning: QMYSQL3 driver not loaded
21:24<wishie>QSqlDatabase: available drivers:
21:24<wishie>Unable to connect to database!
21:24<wishie>No error type from QSqlError? Strange...
21:24<wishie>how can i fix that ?
21:25<Chutt>well, it'd be best if you had read the docs
21:25<Timon>beat me to it Chutt
21:25<Chutt>since that's covered in excrutiating detail
21:25<wishie>i just looked at them
21:25<kwenda>lol anduinw... yes i do have the perl source but i am not so much a perl programmer as i am ... well, not a perl programmer
21:25<wishie>and followed the MySQL part
21:25<kwenda>i can whip up some nice PHP though
21:25<Chutt>you didn't install the qt-mysql driver.
21:25<Chutt>or you didn't compile qt with mysql support.
21:25<anduinw>Timon - during mythe_system calls lirc generated events posted to the event queue are ignored. Allows you to spwn another lirc aaware app and not queue up keystrokes in myth that do nasty things.
21:26<mdz>Chutt: my random crashes are way down now that I've upgraded Qt
21:26<BenB>Chutt: how do you think of those discussions about dvbchannel et al? am I too hard with the guys?
21:27<anduinw>kwenda - perl, php, almost the same thing!
21:27<wishie>qt-mysql ? where is that mentioned ?
21:27<Timon>anduinw: Ahh, ok. What will it do if say I interface with it and send it events programaticly while its spawned out? Will it ignore those in the object?
21:27<BenB>Chutt: should I act as maintainer or contributor or random passer-by? ;-)
21:27<Timon>kwenda: the original PHP parser was written in Perl.
21:28<Chutt>benb, you can code better than them all, so i'd like it if everything major went through you
21:28<kwenda>lol was it really?
21:28<Chutt>and you're easier to work with, too :p
21:28<mdz>something weird did happen today, though. I had a recording which didn't seem to honor the color settings in the db
21:28<Timon>yup, up till version 3. 3 was the first compiled app
21:28<BenB>Chutt: heh, thanks (for that coding).
21:28<mdz>Chutt: do you use that stuff?
21:28<kwenda>if it was written in assembly that wouldnt make me any better at reading assebmbley ;)
21:28<BenB>Chutt: ok.
21:28<anduinw>Timon - yes. You probably want that though.
21:28<Chutt>mdz, the color settings? yeah, though i have all my channels set to the same thing
21:28<kwenda>or -spelling- assembly
21:28<BenB>Chutt: *I* am easy to work with? I felt like an asshole :(
21:29<Timon>anduinw: You are correct, that is what I want. :-)
21:29<Chutt>if you're going to maintain software and accept contributions from other people, you have to be an asshole
21:29<Chutt>you can't just commit any random crap that people send you
21:29<BenB>yes, but it's hard to know where to draw the line, and it's partially random policy.
21:30-!-just1nux [] has quit ["later"]
21:30<mdz>I think a good place to draw the line is between "crap" and "not crap"
21:30<BenB>(the more patches you accept, the more contributions you get, but the worse is your software)#
21:30<mdz>and occasionally, with important stuff, between "not crap" and "fits"
21:30<BenB>mdz: the question is what do I call crap ;-)
21:30<mdz>BenB: only patches that are crap
21:31<Chutt>it's a very flexible definition
21:31<mdz>there are some hard and fast rules, though
21:31<mdz>if looking at the code makes you feel queasy, or shift around in your seat, it's probably crap
21:32<BenB>yes, but some code makes me feel *really* bad, and it's ok for others. that's called style :/
21:32<mdz>if it's obvious that the person changing the code had no idea what it did in the first place, it's likely crap
21:32<BenB>(and sometimes competence)
21:32<kwenda>lol NO, you certianly can NOT watch live TV without first running setup....
21:32<Chutt>like that guy that rewrote RingBuffer.cpp and didn't know what a ring buffer was
21:32<Chutt>kwenda, install tvtime real quick
21:32<BenB>or if the person chaning code doesn'T know what the old code did.
21:32<kwenda>whats tvtime?
21:32<BenB>Chutt: lol
21:32<Chutt>a tv watching app
21:33<matt_>has anyone gotten 'Invalid digit "9" in octal constant' errors when compiling mplayer?
21:33<kwenda>oh... well i guess i already have xawtv
21:34<mdz>if someone sends you a patch with a line like this: perl -e'open M,"</proc/meminfo"||exit;%h=map{@_=split/:\s+/;$_[1]=~s/ kB//;$_[1]*=1024;@_}grep/^\w+:\s+\d+kB$/,<M>;close M;printf"apps.value %d\nfree.value %d\nbuffers.value %d\ncached.value %d\nswap.value%d\n",$h{MemTotal}-$h{MemFree}-$h{Buffers}-$h{Cached}-$h{SwapCached},$h{MemFree},$h{Buffers},$h{Cached}+$h{SwapCached},$h{SwapTotal}-$h{SwapFree}'
21:34<mdz>it's crap
21:34<BenB>Chutt: since we are at that subject, the code in playbackbox.cpp make me feel *really* sick and wanting to scream.
21:34<Chutt>which playbackbox?
21:35<BenB>(no offense meant)
21:35<kwenda>hey that actually gave me output though mdz ;)
21:35<Chutt>that's moegreens
21:35<kwenda>5 lines of 0's
21:35<mdz>kwenda: you actually _ran_ that?
21:35<BenB>Chutt: programs/mythfrontend/playbackbox.cpp, IIRC.
21:35<Chutt>most of that code can go away, actually
21:35<kwenda>heh yeah... had to see what the holy HELL it was trying to do
21:36<Chutt>all the list code is redundant now, with the stuff thor wrote
21:36<BenB>great. I once wanted to have all movies on one page, and tried to make the code do that, but started whining before I could write more than 5 lines.
21:36<mdz>BenB: ooh, a movies page. I've been getting nagged about that for a while now
21:37<Chutt>someone did that by just changing all the titles to 'movie' and the subtitles to the actual movie title
21:37<mdz>oh, you were talking about playbackbox, not the program guide
21:37<Chutt>which works rather well, really
21:37<BenB>mdz: yes.
21:37<mdz>it'd be nice to have a movies screen in mythfrontend like mythweb has
21:37<Chutt>yeah, it would
21:37<mdz>but I've been lazy
21:37<Chutt>i wish moegreen weren't so busy with work
21:38<BenB>mdz: ymthweb should do that, not? my own epg can do that, too, and it was actually one of the main reasons why I wrote that (mythweb's movie page is too orientated on USA)
21:39<mdz>Chutt: do you think it would be better to have a movie list by time (like a guidegrid) or by title (like the program finder)?
21:39<mdz>I usually go in and look for movies for the next week and mark up anything I want to record, rather than asking "what's on now"
21:39<mdz>(like my set top tells me)
21:39<BenB>Chutt: kenneth said you will reject ramon's mythchannels? (I haven't looked at the code, apart from what I commented on, but the functionality woudl be great)
21:40<Chutt>i haven't rejected it completely
21:40<Chutt>i'm just not going to work to put it in to 0.11
21:40<BenB>mdz: my epg sorts by time (a list, not grid), but sorting by title would be nice, too, yes, unless you have only one tuner and want to look for conflcits.
21:40<BenB>Chutt: I see.
21:40<Chutt>basically, it doesn't fit in with the current codebase
21:41<Chutt>i don't see how it'd fit in to configuring things at all
21:41<Chutt>and i really can't read the code
21:41<Chutt>oh, and he left in the mplayer dependency
21:41<mdz>wtf does mplayer have to do with channels?
21:41<Chutt>for a preview of the channel
21:41<BenB>mdz: he uses it as tuner.
21:42<mdz>that's rather silly
21:42<Chutt>which seems rather silly to me, as if you're going to be viewing with mythtv, you should be using mythtv to test things with
21:42<BenB>he has 2 points: it's probably faster, and he doesn't have to create fake DB entries to tell the backend what to record.
21:43<Chutt>but both of those can be worked around
21:43<BenB>but I guess the main reason was that he couldn't figure out how to use the player :)
21:43<Timon>Chutt: Quick question - does mythbackend use mythcontext?
21:43<Chutt>timon, everything that uses libmyth uses it
21:44<Chutt>everything that uses libmyth _has_ to use it =)
21:44<Timon>ok :-)
21:45<BenB>someone sent me a patch, rewriting dvbchannels, but stuffing the DB field values for tuning directly into the driver interface, using a static cast of ints to enums. (IIRC)
21:45<Timon>Eventually I want to extend the LCD stuff to use the GPIO's that most lcd's have to turn on and off LED's when its recording, or anything else I can think of to indicate with LED's
21:45<BenB>i.e. once the enum changes, all the user databases go invalid :)#
21:46<Chutt>see, that's something you can't accept out of hand =)
21:47<BenB>I guess he thought he'd get rid of all those annoying and long conversion code.
21:49-!-wishie [] has quit ["leaving"]
21:56-!-tmk [] has joined #mythtv
22:06<tmk>mmm cvs
22:07-!-Captain_Murdoch_ [] has joined #mythtv
22:08-!-mrblack51 [] has joined #mythtv
22:21<BenB>good night, and have fun coding! :-)
22:21-!-BenB [] has quit ["Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.0.3"]
22:22<tmk>hehe "warning, you should think seriously about upgrading your QT"
22:24-!-silly1 [] has joined #mythtv
22:38<Chutt>tmk, there's a lot of bugs fixed in qt 3.1
22:39<tmk>i see
22:40<-- matt_has quit ()
22:41<Chutt>has anyone sent anything to the mailing list recently?
22:41-!-mrblack51 [] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:50<mdz>I just got a message from mythtv-dev
22:50<Chutt>i restarted the queue
22:50<mdz>it's dated 2 hours ago though
22:50<Chutt>something's not quite right with the config
22:51<Chutt>it's delivering stuff sent since 9:30 right now
22:56<Chutt>now it won't start the hourly queue
23:00* mdzpokes Snow-Man
23:00<Chutt>he's probably doing something silly like sleeping
23:01<mdz>he's on EDT, it's too early for sleep
23:01<mdz>at least I thought he was
23:02<Chutt>he is
23:07<Chutt>bah, i can't figure this crap out right now
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23:19<kwenda>man tv_grab_na is some dirty dirty code
23:22<kwenda>hmm... im running it with debug on
23:22<kwenda>the url its trying to get is
23:22<kwenda>works fine if i go directly with a browser
23:22<kwenda>but tv_grab reports it as ==== response status: 500 Internal Server Error ====
23:22<Timon>An unrecoverable error has occurred. We apologize for this inconvenience.
23:22<Timon>Please click new zipcode to try again.
23:23<Timon>Thats what I get with that link
23:23<anduinw>kwenda - could be they changed their site to block the lame-ass fix that went in last time it broke
23:23<kwenda>might be cookie related, let me clear mine and try again
23:24<kwenda>yeah i trashed my cookies now i get an error too
23:24<kwenda>so cookies are breaking tv_grab...
23:24<Timon>anduinw: From what I understand, they don't care if you scrape thier site as long as you don't resell the data
23:25<Timon>Man, I forgot how good beer tastes! Haven't had one in 3.5 weeks
23:25<anduinw>Timon - I didn't say intentionally :)
23:25<Timon>anduinw: heh yeah
23:25<anduinw>Last time it broke the main problem was that the redirects were messing up the perl code and its cookie cache. The "fix" was to "GET".
23:26<Timon>as apposed to using a POST?
23:26<Timon>kwenda: bah
23:27<anduinw>hehe yeah the tv_grab_na stuff is a mess, I spent more time trying to read the code when I first tried to fix it last time than coding a workaround.
23:27<kwenda>there should be some %20E 's in there too ;)
23:27<kwenda>yeah thats what im doing anduinw
23:27<kwenda>i found myself saying "what the hell is THIS" at least 100 times in the last hour
23:28<Timon>kwenda: You should read some of thor's comments in mythmusic and mythdvd. . .
23:28<Timon> // This is a bit wonky, but it works
23:28<Timon> // (more or less)
23:28<Timon>This is in lcddevice.h: void veryBadThings(int);
23:29<Timon>His comments and function names are funny
23:31<kwenda>bash-2.05b# gunzip /usr/src/linux-2.4.20.tar.gz | tar -x | grep -ci "what the hell"
23:31<Timon>Man. . . I really wish slashdot would mirror the content and use the mirror.
23:31<Timon>kwenda: haha
23:31<Timon>I'm glad I updated my tv listings last night
23:32<kwenda>lol unless you live in 76110 that doesn't help me much
23:32<kwenda>i'm gonna have to start doing a mysql_hot_copy every night
23:33<Timon>bah, just don't answer 'y' to clear out everything when you add a new frontend :-)
23:33<Timon>Your more then welcome to have the data for 99503 though :-)
23:33<kwenda>i forgot i had already edited mysql.txt
23:33<kwenda>that's one of those "my bad, im retarded" kind of things
23:34<Timon>I won't dispute that :-)
23:35<mdz>kwenda: there are a lot of things wrong with that command line
23:36<kwenda>yeah i know i had to use tee and uniq and wc too
23:36<kwenda>but i had already pasted the command
23:36<kwenda>didn't want to paste 2 commands
23:37<kwenda>i also ended up doing it on the tree rather than on the archive
23:37<kwenda>but the number is correct =)
23:42<kwenda>hm, im not great at this
23:42<kwenda>but i think that what's breaking it is that its not sending the cookie for the ads
23:42<tmk>hey chutt
23:42<kwenda>what tv_grab and what MSIE are sending in the cookies are the same, except for cookieApopunder1060658684037
23:43<anduinw>which probably means it isn't the problem IMO
23:44<kwenda>you think? its the only difference i can see... although not sending a cookie SHOULDNT break the whole page
23:44<tmk>what does "No rule to make target `' needed by, `Makefile'. Stop. " mean??
23:45<anduinw>are you actually looking at all the HTTP traffic?
23:45<kwenda>yeah im sniffing the packets
23:45<Timon>kwenda: Maybe they are using it to keep people out who have popup blockers in place?
23:46<anduinw>tmk - do you have the qt-devel package installed correctly?
23:46<Timon>And a side affect is breaking xmltv
23:46<kwenda>well, the other difference is that tv_grab id's itself as User-Agent: xmltv/0.5.14
23:46<Timon>kwenda: I have seen sites that refuse to work if you have popup blockers on
23:47<paulproteus>Timon: Usually sites that are "mildly illegal" and get money from ads....
23:47<kwenda>hmm... ive never used one timon... but after playing with zap2it for the last hour or so i'm seeing why they were invented
23:47-!-fulbert_ is now known as fulbert
23:48<anduinw>kwenda - and everything else is the same, just that one cookie and the browser ident?
23:48<tmk>anduinw: maybe :)
23:48<kwenda>anduinw, yeah
23:48<kwenda>well, the ASPSESSIONID is different, obviously
23:48<Timon>paulproteus: uses it (Emulation news site)
23:48<kwenda>but that wouldn't break it
23:48<tmk>should that file exist in the mythtv dir? (
23:48<tmk>cause it don't
23:48<anduinw>tmk - do you have qmake?
23:49* paulproteusis slightly worried about the user-agent
23:49<tmk>it compiled half of it
23:49<tmk>now it won't do anything but error
23:49<Timon>kwenda: They are well worth it. I use the google toolbar at home/work and it does a good job at blocking popups
23:50<anduinw>kwenda - even the page jumping is the same? (redirect handling)
23:52<Timon>You gotta love that new RPC worm! Took down the dc (domain controller), mail server, file servers at work today! Got to slack for 2 hours!
23:53* paulproteusscreams in agony
23:53-!-hfb [] has joined #mythtv
23:53<paulproteus>O, Microsoft, we thank You for blessing with this Godly software Monoculture.
23:53<paulproteus>Save us from the hand of the Marketplace. We are but your humble Servants.
23:54<Timon>paulproteus: I got that retoric from one of the MS whores at work "Its only because its the most popular software out there" to which I replied "Bull shit, its because its the buggiest"
23:54<paulproteus>"Trustworthy Computing".
23:54* paulproteusscreams again
23:54<kwenda>anduinw, its different but it ends up at the same place... tv_grab sends the cookies 3 different times but IE sends all the cookies for the domain at once so gets to skip 3 pages
23:54<paulproteus>You know, I 0wned my Xbox to run MythTV. How? Freaking buffer underrun exploits in their code.
23:55<Timon>Even the university got it. You would think people would follow the MS security bulletins religisly
23:55<paulproteus>They can't afford to Timon.
23:55<paulproteus>Updates break things.
23:55<Timon>paulproteus: The security bulletins from what I understand are free.
23:56<kwenda>it takes manpower to install all the patches Timon
23:56<paulproteus>It's the Microsoft Way. (MS' address, BTW: "One Microsoft Way / Redmond, WA". Go look it up if you think I kid you. )
23:56<kwenda>i work at a university where there are 6000 win2k desktops
23:56<paulproteus>That, and they have to figure out what all this update will break.
23:56<paulproteus>So "wait and see".
23:56<Timon>paulproteus: Oh yeah that. "here install this new sp for sql server, we promise it won't break anything" But you guessed it, it breaks things
23:56<Timon>kwenda: SMS will handle that, doesn't take a lot of man power
23:57<kwenda>you'd think
23:57<paulproteus>kwenda: It's quite easy.
23:57<paulproteus>1. 0wn all of them with the exploit.
23:57<kwenda>but then you get the n00bs who reboot their machine because the "update is taking too long"
23:57<paulproteus>2. Use the exploit to patch them remotely and reboot.
23:57<anduinw>How many linux installs are running buggy apache versions? buggy portmappers? buggy kernels? A _lot_, same in the MS world.
23:57<kwenda>anduinw has a good point there
23:58<bigguy>but you can fix the linux stuff easily
23:58<paulproteus>anduinw: And how many remote root exploits exist across versions of Linux 7 years old, like NT4?
23:58<Timon>anduinw: I'm not dogging ms because they release buggy software, I'm dogging them because at least once a month there is a "serious" security venerbility
23:58<kwenda>if they discover a flaw in the kernel that has been there since 2.1.0, then that one willhave been 7 years old too
23:58<Timon>paulproteus: If I remember correctly, someone wrote a thingy for codered which turned off the exploit.
23:58<kwenda>they didnt leave it unfixed for 7 years... they didn't DISCOVER it for 7 years
23:58<paulproteus>Yes, I remember that, too, Timon :)
23:58<Timon>Ok, gotta run. . . Wife is calling
23:59<paulproteus>Okay. I'll continue this flame war later, too ;)
23:59<anduinw>I hold no special love for them either :) Just saying a lot of the "security" problems are really "awareness/resource" problems.