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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2004-05-08

---Logopened Sat May 08 00:00:46 2004
00:02billytwowilly| question: Is anyone working on better recording ala tivo? ie. recording things based on past preferences?
00:09billytwowilly| I suppose that would be scheduling wouldn't it?
00:11cmorgan i'm not sure if anyone is working on adding intelligence to the scheduler
00:11billytwowilly| Thanks
00:11cmorgan i wonder if the program descriptions are specific enough to allow some kind of a bayes algorithm
00:11billytwowilly| I didn't think so. Couldn't find anything on the mailing lists
00:11billytwowilly| I think they will be once the labs.zap2it thing is used.
00:12cmorgan i'd imagine the only thing holding us back would be the data really. knowing the stars of a show, the genre etc
00:12billytwowilly| I think lots of that is in the data, but I'm not sure
00:12billytwowilly| I only ask because I have shows that have different descriptions but don't seem to show up as separate shows.
00:13billytwowilly| ie. how it's made
00:13cmorgan how can that be?
00:13billytwowilly| I get 5 recordings of the show with the same description and 3 of the other episode that plays that week;)
00:13billytwowilly| I don't know.
00:13cmorgan ahh
00:13billytwowilly| It has the description ie: cars, trucks, glue
00:13cmorgan and there are no conflicts?
00:14billytwowilly| and the other one will be something like computer chips, fences, lumber
00:14billytwowilly| and I get a couple copies of each because I have it set to record all showings so I don't miss episodes.
00:14billytwowilly| No conflicts.
00:14billytwowilly| I'm using 0.14 though.
00:14billytwowilly| My understanding is cvs is way different after three months;)
00:15cmorgan yeah, i'd imagine cvs has come quite some way in 3 months ;-)
00:15* billytwowill looks forward to a release
00:16billytwowilly| You guys talked me into it btw. I ordered a begginner's C++ book from oreilly;)
00:16cmorgan heh
00:16cmorgan you have anything specific you want to add?
00:17billytwowilly| to mythtv?
00:17cmorgan yep
00:17billytwowilly| better scheduler
00:17cmorgan its always good to pick an itch ;-)
00:17billytwowilly| But I wouldn't start with that.
00:17billytwowilly| Have to start with teaching myth to print "hello world" or something;)
00:17cmorgan yeah, it might be a bit much
00:17billytwowilly| maybe sometime in 2007;)
00:18cmorgan i wonder how much program guide data myth keeps..
00:18cmorgan if it kept all of it then you could easily test out your more advanced scheduler
00:18billytwowilly| Yah. I have no idea.
00:18billytwowilly| I just ordered the book;)
00:18billytwowilly| I haven't gotten it yet;)
00:18billytwowilly| or know anything about programming for that matter...
00:18cmorgan but i'm not sure if you could just do a brute force bayes method or not
00:19billytwowilly| I wonder how tivo does it.
00:19cmorgan programming isn't that difficult, but like anything its the details that are a pita
00:19cmorgan much of working on myth is knowing the rest of the code
00:19billytwowilly| other languages scare me;)
00:19billytwowilly| I had a horrible experience with a french teacher in grade four and it's completely turned me off other languages.
00:19billytwowilly| spanish, java, C++;)
00:19cmorgan heh
00:20billytwowilly| jams sent me that.
00:20billytwowilly| interesting
00:20cmorgan my high school german teacher was arrested for soliciting a prostitute, or so my younger brother has informed me
00:20billytwowilly| Heh
00:21cmorgan yes, that was the kind of brute force bayes i was thinking of
00:21billytwowilly| That's classic
00:21cmorgan i suspect it would work well
00:21billytwowilly| Yah.
00:21cmorgan he was actually quite a considerate and nice guy
00:21billytwowilly| It would be nice if myth would try and keep the hard drive as full as possible.
00:21billytwowilly| keep all the stuff I tell it to record and then record things with high probability of interest until drive is near full
00:22cmorgan you could work on getting this bayes stuff integrated better as some kind of a scheduler plugin
00:22billytwowilly| delete unrequested recordings if space is needed for requested recordings, etc.
00:22cmorgan yeah
00:22billytwowilly| I'm going to email the guy who wrote it and beg him to talk to chutt and get it integrated;)
00:22billytwowilly| It would be great if it just did it;)
00:22billytwowilly| ie was part of mythtv
00:23cmorgan yeah, but keeping that stuff clean is important. it shouldn't take over the scheduler but maybe be a separate module that the scheduler will call every so often
00:24billytwowilly| well, invariably some of the stuff would have to be in the scheduler
00:24billytwowilly| ie. knowing how much hard drive space there is and calling the bayesian stuff to pic things to fill the gaps in recording.
00:24cmorgan i don't think the scheduler does any of that stuff now does it?
00:24billytwowilly| and the scheduler would have to know about the database additions needed for the bayesian stuff
00:24billytwowilly| I have no idea.
00:25cmorgan you could have the scheduler call out to your module when it finds free spaces in the schedule
00:25billytwowilly| Like I said, I just ordered a beginners C++ book:)
00:25cmorgan at which time the module could find good candiates and select them for recording
00:25billytwowilly| Probably be best to do after a database update and when a new program is added to the recording schedule?
00:26billytwowilly| you'd want the stuff the bayes thing picks to be done in the background. Ie if you turn on the tv it would stop recording and let you watch
00:26cmorgan well it would be quick
00:26cmorgan so i mean you could call it every 30 minutes
00:26billytwowilly| and you wouldn't want it to show up in your recording schedule or if it did it would have to be blatantly bayes picked stuff.
00:26cmorgan and have it update the entire future schedule at that time
00:26cmorgan yeah, you'd want it to be flagged as background or something
00:26billytwowilly| that seems inefficient to me;)
00:27billytwowilly| the only time the future recordings will change is after a database update or after a new program is added to record.
00:27billytwowilly| atleast that's logical to me.
00:27cmorgan well there are a few issues to deal with there. one is that the users new choices change your selection criteria
00:27billytwowilly| I have no idea if that is true or not.
00:27billytwowilly| exactly, so you run it again for the entire future.
00:27cmorgan so you can't rely on database update as a good time since they could go days between updates, but yeah, once a day should be enough
00:27billytwowilly| which would be nine days
00:27cmorgan but what if their program choices change in those 9 days?
00:28cmorgan they wouldn't see the picker updated until then. cpu time is cheap these days. once every 30 minutes or every hour isn't too much
00:28billytwowilly| ok. run bayes stuff when database is updated with listing info and when program choices change (ie something new is selected to be recorded)
00:29cmorgan i'm just speculating, chutt has the final say on things. maybe you could trigger on just those two critiera
00:29billytwowilly| I just meant rerun the bayes picked recordings for the next nine days because that's how much info you get from zap2it
00:29cmorgan user picks new shows, on the next hour interval you update, or if there is a db update
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00:29billytwowilly| user picks new shows, update, db updates, bayes updates
00:29billytwowilly| that's what I envision.
00:30billytwowilly| I think it's the same as you, we're just communicating poorly;)
00:30cmorgan yeah. would be neat though
00:30billytwowilly| perhaps I just dont' have as much info as you, which is likely.
00:30billytwowilly| considering my lack of programming skills and lack of familiarity with the source.
00:30cmorgan oh i've no idea about this stuff
00:31billytwowilly| well, I'm going to go email the bayesmyth guy
00:31billytwowilly| be back in ten minutes.
00:31cmorgan i'm just a fan of anything that makes the ui smoother or improves the interface improvements
00:31billytwowilly| That would be a huge improvement;)
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00:31billytwowilly| then tivo has nothing on us I think.
00:31billytwowilly| and we own every pvr software out there.
00:32cmorgan i'd imagine tivo's interface is far more polished
00:32billytwowilly| possibly yah, I've never seen it;)
00:32cmorgan i mean they have people working 40 hours a week for years on the user interface
00:32billytwowilly| I live in Canada, and they haven't graced us with thier presence;)
00:32jams less options, but more consistent
00:33jams GeckoFiend's latest changest with menu nav, have helped alot in that regard
00:33cmorgan having options is great, its just hiding the obscure ones in smart ways
00:34jams i will say my wife had no trouble switching over from that other product
00:36jams the only comment was how slow the channel changes, but unless we move to bttv cards there's not much to be done about it
00:36cmorgan tivo has the same delay btw
00:37jams not as bad
00:37cmorgan a few seconds to switch channels
00:37jams tivo=1 myth=2
00:37cmorgan how often do you watch live tv though? i actually have only watched live tv maybe once in a few months of myth usage
00:37billytwowilly| That's true
00:37billytwowilly| I dont' watch livetv anymore
00:38billytwowilly| mythtv has completely changed my tv watching habits
00:38billytwowilly| I now watch the shows I like all the time, whereas I would forget previously and watch that comedy drivel like friends.
00:38billytwowilly| I watch way more drama type stuff now.
00:40jams well instead of just having the tv on for background, i use mythmusic more
00:41billytwowilly| I don't use mythmusic right now because my nfs setup is screwed;)
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00:46* TSCHAK is a mythvideo/mythdvd junkie
00:46billytwowilly| ok, I emailed him.
00:46TSCHAK it's rather nice having my DVDs and music CDs all at fingertip range.
00:47billytwowilly| you must have long fingertips or a small collection of those things;)
00:50billytwowilly| I'm much funnier in person;) you'll just have to trust me;)
00:50TSCHAK lolol
00:50TSCHAK I'm switching over to LVM soon
00:50TSCHAK so I can bolt on more drives
00:50TSCHAK the drive cage I have now, can hold 14 drives (SCSI)
00:51billytwowilly| wow.
00:51TSCHAK it will be moved to the garage
00:51TSCHAK and I'll put mythtv frontend clients at various spots in the house
00:51billytwowilly| isn't SCSI kind of a waste on a PVR?
00:51billytwowilly| Heh, where do you live?
00:51TSCHAK billytwowilly: well, I want more drives, without loss in performance.
00:52billytwowilly| I've always wanted a SCSI server;)
00:52TSCHAK billytwowilly: this is at my place in Dallas.
00:52billytwowilly| is there a security system on the garage or can I just use normal breakin tools to get a new server??;)
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00:53TSCHAK billytwowilly: yeah, the security system consists of me, and my glock. =)
00:53TSCHAK we don't miss. =)
00:54mikegrb <- they are building supports for my new projection screen
00:54billytwowilly| ok, so bring the ole knockout gas and put it in the house air intake for a couple minutes prior to acquiring server;)
00:54mikegrb for mythtv ;)
00:54billytwowilly| gotcha;)
00:54TSCHAK billytwowilly: lol =)
00:54billytwowilly| mikegrb, That's hilarious;)
00:55mikegrb heh
00:55mikegrb those supports are around 500 ft tall
00:55billytwowilly| I knew they looked a bit small for mikegrb's tv;)
00:55billytwowilly| boo.. it'd look all pixelated.
00:56mikegrb the new road surface is going to be around 300ft from the water
00:56mikegrb crazyness
00:56mikegrb picture was taken from about 3/4 mile away
00:56billytwowilly| at 480+480 resolution you would have just over a square foot per pixel;)
00:57mikegrb billytwowilly: heh
00:57billytwowilly| at my recording resolution;)
00:57mikegrb billytwowilly: just have to watch from the beach
00:57billytwowilly| Heh.
00:57billytwowilly| No point in having a big tv if you have to watch it from 3 miles away..
00:57bigman record at a higher res then
00:57billytwowilly| unless you also have a sound system that you can listen to 3 miles away;)
00:58mikegrb puhwaha
00:58billytwowilly| at HDTV 1080i you would have just under a half foot square pixel..
00:59billytwowilly| There's a reason the IMAX screens use big film and it's not because some guy was recording onto a cassette, saw a guy recording with 35mm and got penis envy;)
01:02* TSCHAK has worked with IMAX film...
01:02TSCHAK the prints on the negatives are oval-shaped.
01:03* mikegrb has worked with iwerks film
01:03TSCHAK essentially a fish-eye wide-angle lens, with double vertical aspect ratio.
01:03mikegrb the projectors will play both
01:03TSCHAK mikegrb: cool =)))
01:03mikegrb used a little fork lift type thingie to move the rolls of film around
01:04TSCHAK mikegrb: =))))
01:04mikegrb favorite part was the speakers
01:04mikegrb on the otherside of the metal mesh screen
01:04TSCHAK yeah...the speaker array is nuts
01:04TSCHAK yup.
01:04mikegrb so the sound really would come from the picture :)
01:04TSCHAK =)
01:04TSCHAK I remember the VERY FIRST IMAX print I ever saw...
01:05TSCHAK back in...shit...1986....
01:05TSCHAK Speed
01:05TSCHAK I remember feeling the vertigo.
01:05Narkov how stable is CVS atm?
01:06mikegrb unfortunatly no big pictures of the projection booth
01:06mikegrb there are two platters for film though
01:06mikegrb run from one, rewind the other
01:07mikegrb two movies are shown every other one switching between them
01:07mikegrb so you only have to move the rolls when you take one out and bring a new movie in
01:07mikegrb the real on the wall in the backgrounhd of that picture at the bottom is a magnetic tape for the audio
01:07mikegrb actual audio comes from a dvd
01:08mikegrb the system will play that real to real and use it as a hot spare
01:08mikegrb if you forgot to start it when the movie started then you get it setup when you remember
01:08mikegrb hit the button and it seeks to the current position
01:08Narkov expensive backup dont ya think?
01:08mikegrb the film frames have a barcode every fifth frame
01:08mikegrb Narkov: indeed
01:08mikegrb so the computer knows right where it is
01:09mikegrb lighting, theater doors, everything computer controlled
01:09mikegrb one person sits in a booth in the top corner of the theater with a touch screen and runs the show
01:09mikegrb the projector itself moves on a track
01:09Narkov whats it worth? all up?
01:10mikegrb it comes down to just infront of the film rolls
01:10mikegrb you load it then it runs up two concrete beems 2.5 floors to the projection position
01:10mikegrb hmm
01:10mikegrb I don't remember
01:11mikegrb the projection room and sound system (not projector and video stuff) was over a million
01:11mikegrb the projector booth is a low level clean room
01:11mikegrb sticky floor when you come in to get dirt from shoes
01:11mikegrb and gloves and mask are worn
01:11mikegrb don't want dust or fingerprints on the film
01:12bigman anyone have any experience with this card
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03:30steelep whose bright Idea was it to make entering a 0 impossible with a keyboard in MythVideo's title editor?
03:31steelep or can I turn this silly remote helper off somewhere?
03:31steelep otherwise I have to write a patch
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05:15Narkov can someone please fix public cvs??
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05:23Rince what's wrong with it?
05:23Rince may I ask?
05:32Narkov because its broken
05:32Narkov hold up
05:32Narkov mediapc mythmusic-0.14 # cvs -d login
05:32Narkov Logging in to
05:32Narkov CVS password:
05:32Narkov PAM start error: Critical error - immediate abort
05:32Narkov Fatal error, aborting.
05:32Narkov cvs [login aborted]: unrecognized auth response from pam failed to release authenticator
05:33Rince ah ;)
05:34Rince crystalball:/usr/src/mythtv/cvs# cvs checkout mythtv
05:34Rince cvs checkout: Updating mythtv
05:34Rince U mythtv/README
05:34Rince U mythtv/keys.txt
05:34Rince M mythtv/
05:34Rince works for me...
05:35Narkov whats the full command you are using?
05:35Rince just cvs checkout
05:36Rince because I already checked out before, the configuration is stored in CVSROOT/
05:36Narkov can you try it with my command?
05:36Narkov its the same as in the docs
05:36Rince just a minute
05:38Rince crystalball:/usr/src/mythtv/cvs# cvs -d login
05:38Rince Logging in to
05:38Rince CVS password:
05:39Rince works for me
05:39Narkov no password obviously?
05:39Rince password is mythtv
05:39Narkov bah
05:41Narkov working now...move along everyone...nothing to see here :)
05:41Rince ;-)
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08:16GeckoFiend :-p Narkov
08:24GeckoFiend steelep - MythVideo should really follow the rest of MythTV. and just popup a menu when you hit the menu key that has "Edit", "Automatic IMDB Lookup", "Manual IDMB Lookup". If you're going to wrtie a patch that is...
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14:48Chutt so, um, yeah
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15:08rkulagow hey welcome back and all. looks like you had pinged me right before you left. what's up?
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15:12Snow-Man hey.
15:14rkulagow oh, and docs sync, please.
15:14rkulagow it's now chock full of datadirect goodness.
15:15Snow-Man datadirect goodness?
15:15rkulagow yes.
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15:41Chutt rkulagow, hey
15:41rkulagow hey
15:42Chutt i'd recommend people using the second option in setup to clear the db tables
15:42Chutt instead of doing it manually
15:43Chutt also, doing this before clearing the tables:
15:43Chutt CREATE TABLE channel_copy SELECT * FROM channel;
15:43Chutt and doing this afterwards:
15:43Chutt UPDATE channel,channel_copy SET channel.icon = channel_copy.icon WHERE channel.callsign = channel_copy.callsign;
15:43Chutt well, after running mythfilldatabase after setting up the service
15:43Chutt will keep the channel icons set
15:44rkulagow ok
15:44rkulagow still need to do the truncate like bruce put in to get around the auto_increment, right?
15:45Chutt right, but i'm changing the code in setup to use truncate
15:46rkulagow ok, so should i just whack that section, other than the channel icon stuff?
15:46Chutt well, tell em to use setup to clear it instead of the manual sql stuff
15:46Chutt and it's a good idea to do a backup first, still =)
15:46rkulagow right
15:46GeckoFiend wb chutt
15:47Chutt howdy
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15:47GeckoFiend so are you all orientated now?
15:47Chutt yeah
15:48Chutt that was done on monday, actually
15:48Chutt rest of the week was semi-real work
15:48bdale Chutt: where'd you end up?
15:48Chutt nvidia
15:49GeckoFiend That's pretty reasonable. I've seen 3 days - an entrie week before.
15:49Chutt bdale, actually, did you say you're located in colorado?
15:49GeckoFiend nice chutt I hadn't heard, you gonna fix the fucking drivers?
15:49bdale Chutt: when I'm not traveling, right now I'm in Germany
15:49Chutt nope, no driver work for me
15:49Chutt bdale, the office the group i'm working for is in ft collins
15:50Chutt i'm still telecommuting from cleveland, though
15:50stoffel bdale: germany? in the bb area perhaps?
15:50bigman moving soon?
15:50Chutt nope
15:50bdale Chutt: aha, includes some ex-HP types, then, I suspect... my boss is in Ft Collins, and I get there once a month or so for meetings... let me know when you're going to be there sometime and perhaps we'll bump into each other?
15:50Chutt i was just there =)
15:50Chutt probably won't be out again for months
15:50bdale stoffel: I was in Munich mid-week, right now I'm in Marburg, flying home from Frankfurt in the morning
15:51bdale Chutt: oh well... I'll be in Dayton for the Hamvention next weekend, but haven't been in Cleveland in years
15:51Chutt heh, no reason to go to cleveland
15:51Chutt it's pretty blah
15:51bdale ;-)
15:52Chutt 'All is strange and vague. Are we dead? Or is this Ohio?'
15:53Chutt ah well
15:53Chutt my hardware shows up on monday =)
15:53rkulagow so, what will you be doing?
15:54Chutt media apps
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15:56GeckoFiend Win32?
15:57rkulagow chutt: you look at that email i sent you last week? i've been having "device full" errors when trying to commit the pdf.
15:57Chutt yeah
15:57Chutt that's fixed
15:57Chutt i could send email, but i read it
15:57Chutt err
15:57Chutt "couldn't"
15:58rkulagow ok
15:58Chutt there, setup in cvs uses truncate table now
15:58Chutt since it's faster than delete, anyway
16:01rkulagow i'm still getting back-to-back failures with chris kennedy's ivtv patches.
16:02Chutt well
16:02Chutt i'd say that's to be expected
16:02Chutt the guy doesn't really know what he's doing =)
16:03Chutt i guess i should re-enable my subscription to -users
16:03rkulagow meanie!
16:04Chutt heh
16:04Chutt there's only 300 or so different patches of his you could try
16:04Chutt and i don't think that 300 is exaggerating very much
16:05rkulagow anyway, it's more than just the back to back thing. most times, if mythbackend starts and there are already multiple programs to be recorded in the current timeslot one of them will fail. it might take 4-5 restarts before both successfully start.
16:05Chutt right
16:05rkulagow yeah, i think he's running out of letters!
16:05Chutt just driver bugs, really :(
16:05Chutt something's not quite right in there
16:06rkulagow i know. and tmk has been pretty quiet, and -pre2 still has issues with firmware reloading, which is why i'm even entertaining the ck patches.
16:06Chutt tmk's busy and stuff
16:06rkulagow totally understand.
16:06Chutt he comes on and says hi every now and then, though
16:07Chutt i'm probably going to have less spare time, too
16:07rkulagow yep. so now i just use pre and post roll to ensure that i don't get back to back recordings.
16:07Chutt since i'm working for a real company and all that now
16:07rkulagow yeah. .15 should probably get released before zap2it kills _grab_na
16:07Chutt true
16:08Chutt i'll talk to thor and bruce and david
16:08Chutt see what they think
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16:08Chutt i don't think doing a release now would be too bad
16:08Chutt stuff's pretty stable
16:08Chutt well, i'd need to finish up the music ui
16:08steelep i'd really like to squeeze autoplaylists in there...
16:08rkulagow robert eden wrote a channel icon grabbed for na_dd
16:09steelep I just need to talk to thor about the db table
16:09Chutt oh?
16:09Chutt where's that?
16:09rkulagow oops, grabber
16:09Chutt is it a separate program that i can reuse?
16:09rkulagow not sure.
16:09rkulagow brb
16:10steelep now that finals are over I might actually have time to program :)
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16:11Chutt steelep, sure
16:11rkulagow oops: The latest version is 0.5.33. This has many grabber changes, in particular tv_grab_na is gone - use tv_grab_na_dd instead. There is a new program tv_grab_na_icons which complements tv_grab_na_dd by fetching icons from the website.
16:11rkulagow released 2004-05-07
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16:12Chutt i wonder if i can extract the logic easily
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16:15Chutt ah well
16:15Chutt back later
16:15steelep since he's trapping 0 as a bad playlistid I should be able to use that to denote autoplaylists
16:16steelep is thor ever here on saturday?
16:19rkulagow crap. using tv_grab_na_dd with .14 looks like it's kludgey, and xmltv 0.5.33 doesn't include the old grabber anymore.
16:19billytwowilly| time for a downgrade;)
16:20billytwowilly| Or is there a reason why we must use 0.5.33?
16:20rkulagow well, doesn't matter to me, i use the native one now.
16:20billytwowilly| is the one normally used with 0.14 borken?
16:21rkulagow zap2it has said that they're going to change the website, which will break tv_grab_na. XMLTV people aren't going to update; zap2it wants everyone to use the datadirect service.
16:21billytwowilly| hmm.
16:21rkulagow xmltv people are obliging, and now only include tv_grab_na_dd.
16:21billytwowilly| So they are forcing an update of mythtv.
16:21rkulagow mythtv CVS has a built-in datadirect grabber, so it won't use XMLTV at all anymore (at least if you're in NA)
16:22billytwowilly| yah, so they are forcing a new release of mythtv if you guys want to keep us lowly users happy;)
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16:28billytwowilly| what's isaac more than a little swamped with at the moment if you don't mind me asking?
16:32steelep new job
16:39billytwowilly| oh ok. cool
16:39billytwowilly| hey, are we going to have to eventually pay for this stuff?
16:39billytwowilly| I just signed up and it says my subscription will expire in 2004/08/08
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18:15Omnic hrm.. the recent change to scheduledrecording.cpp is segv'ing the backend to me
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20:18Goldfish I'm trying to set up a remote MythTV client, and I can't get mythtv-setup to work due to database access. I already tested mysql can access the database.
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20:22rkulagow chutt: docs sync please.
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21:21Chutt rkulagow, done
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21:32rkulagow thanks
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---Logclosed Sun May 09 00:00:08 2004