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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2004-09-30

---Logopened Thu Sep 30 00:00:30 2004
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00:22rkulagow_ gfiend: ere?
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02:21ribrdb bah. I finally get mythbackend to crash inside gdb, and gdb decides to quit while I'm copying the backtrace.
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03:20* KarlosII that's my friend in this jpeg link..
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10:47bedboi hi all
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12:36Baylink Anyone around who bangs specifically on the program guide stuff?
12:58Chutt how come there's been absolutely no improvement in ivtv driver stability in the 9 months chris has been working on it?
12:58Chutt after how many thousand revisions?
12:59Baylink I dunno; it's rpetty stable here.
13:00Baylink You don't have to reverse engineer undocumented hardware.
13:00Chutt i have before
13:04Chutt and the hardware's pretty well documented
13:04Baylink Fine, so you can understand how hard it is. But that's not really the point I was trying to make.
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 30 13:05:58 2004
---Logopened Thu Sep 30 13:06:03 2004
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13:06-!- Irssi: #mythtv: Total of 69 nicks 0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 69 normal
13:06Chutt minor things continually break
13:06Baylink And "absolutely no improvement" is also factually incorrect.
13:06Chutt and get fixed again, _maybe_
13:06-!- Irssi: Channel: Join to #mythtv was synced in 13 secs
13:06Chutt actually, his very latest revisions seem semi promising
13:06Beirdo Chutt: you do realize I've heard the same from users of Myth
13:07Beirdo what he calls progress is not necessarily what we'd call progress
13:07Baylink And they're wrong too. :-)
13:07Chutt but there's been no progress
13:07Beirdo yes there has
13:07Beirdo it supports more cards
13:07Beirdo it does resolution changes better
13:07Chutt captain_murdoch did most of that :p
13:07Beirdo etc.
13:07Beirdo now granted, I'd rather see VBI working :)
13:08Baylink <aol>Meetoo</aol>
13:08Beirdo but totally discounting all his work is not very accurate :)
13:09Baylink brb
13:09Beirdo I'm sure he has limited time to work on it too, and not many people helping him
13:09Baylink Actually, CK spends silly amounts of time on it; I sort of gather his work wants to use the cards...
13:09Chutt 3 or 4 revisions a day isn't 'limited time' :p
13:10cmorgan each revision should be more stable than the last, and for a known reason
13:10Chutt especially considering how long it must take to write all those novel length emails
13:10cmorgan shotgun patches aren't the solution to a complex driver
13:10Beirdo why he releases them so often, well that's a good question :)
13:10Chutt right
13:10Beirdo he should use CVS and release periodically when it is "stable"
13:10Beirdo but not everyone does that I guess
13:10cmorgan instead each release is a crap shoot
13:11Beirdo yep
13:11Beirdo but if you look at the current ck release vs 0.1.9, there are a lot of improvements
13:11cmorgan thats fine for a userland app like myth but for a kernel driver it really sucks
13:11cmorgan your whole machine tanks
13:11Beirdo yep
13:11Chutt but the major issue (instability on a lot of people's machines) hasn't really been fixed
13:12Beirdo I think it has for quite a few people. I've never had an issue with it, personally
13:12Chutt and i've never had an issue with 0.1.9 :p
13:12Beirdo it's certainly not perfect
13:12Baylink Actually, IME, not many of his releases have actually been *locking* people's machines, they just die. And he's *right* on the motherboard/chipset/DMA firing line.
13:13Baylink Personally, I've got a KT400A, which is reported to be the pissiest chipset around, and I've only hit one out of about 9 of his released that gave me any trouble at all.
13:13Chutt right, but most other tuner cards do dma as well
13:13Chutt and uncompressed video is a hell of a lot more data
13:13Beirdo yes, but other tuner cards have full documentation available
13:13Chutt but dma is dma :p
13:13cmorgan there are only a limited number of error cases
13:14Beirdo setting up the chip requires documentation :)
13:14Baylink Not if you don't understand both ends of the transfer, I suspect.
13:14cmorgan worst case you restart the whole damn card
13:14Chutt baylink, it's fully documented, though
13:14cmorgan instead of say locking up
13:14Chutt that stuff's in the docs on the ivtv site
13:14Chutt but, whatever
13:14Beirdo Chutt: where? I was under the impression that the Conexant chipset document is not available
13:15Chutt beirdo, it was 'reverse engineered' from the leaked driver source
13:15Beirdo right
13:15Chutt in the docs/ section, unless that's all been removed
13:15Beirdo and the reverse engineering isn't perfect, and that's the source of many of the instabilities, no?
13:15Chutt nope
13:16Chutt driver's poorly written, mainly
13:16Chutt which is due to the fact that no one working on it for any period of time's ever done a driver before, essentially
13:16Beirdo that could be :)
13:17Beirdo and I'm not willing to step up.
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13:17cmorgan Beirdo: it isn't that difficult
13:17Chutt jens axboe cleaned up a number of smaller things, and pointed out all the bigger issues
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13:17Beirdo my 6 months of fighting the IXP1200 drivers were bad enough
13:17cmorgan Beirdo: most of the difficulty is setting up the debugging so you can do useful things when it breaks
13:17Beirdo you mess up one line, you gotta power-cycle
13:18Beirdo I'm shocked that I didn't smash that computer into little pieces :)
13:18Beirdo got it working in the end, but it turned out all the problems were shitty documentation
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13:19Baylink I'm gonna prospect Jon Corbet and see if he's interestes...
13:19Chutt it's just extremely annoying that every time the ivtv driver breaks
13:19Chutt it gets asked about as if it were a myth bug
13:19Beirdo heh
13:19Beirdo I can see that
13:19Baylink You assume someone's blaming it on you? :-)
13:19Chutt since i wrote the code, yes
13:20Chutt and it's not being asked about on the ivtv list
13:20Baylink The app is *always* the first place you go. It's not *blame*, it's just the first question. *I* didn't know that Myth asked the driver about timebase, and I suspect fegw others did either.
13:20Beirdo I also don't understand why people will take their WORKING ivtv setup and needlessly upgrade
13:20Baylink The person who knows that may not be on that list.
13:21Baylink It's not an easy situation to fix. I'm trying, slowly, to sift that stuff out of the lists and put it on DG's wiki...
13:21Chutt it's a newer version number, it must be better! :p
13:21Baylink :-)
13:21GreyFoxx hah
13:21Beirdo yeah, that's it exactly, Chutt
13:21Baylink But, conversely, *someone's* gott abeta test.
13:21Beirdo it ain't gonna be me on my production PVR :)
13:21Baylink I'm trying to strike a balance, on my box.
13:21Chutt right, but you blame the thing you changed, not the thing you didn't
13:21Beirdo maybe on my devel one if I put my third PVR-250 in there
13:21Baylink Ours is production, but I have a rollback structure set up.
13:22Beirdo yes, makes sense
13:22Baylink I gotta get *that* posted this weekend, too.
13:22Beirdo however, if you changed both myth and ivtv at the same time (shame on you), where do you ask first?
13:22cmorgan it depends what happens
13:22Chutt ivtv =)
13:22GreyFoxx It would depend on the problem
13:22Baylink Y'know, the contributions of all this wisdom to the Wiki wouldn't be objected to. :-)
13:22cmorgan if myth crashes and you can restart it then myth
13:22o_c oh yeah, got time to switch back to my nvidia fx5200 now! :) bye bye 350 tvout.. heh
13:22Chutt i don't touch wikis
13:23cmorgan if your machine hangs, its the driver
13:23Baylink Our loss, I guess; huh?
13:23Beirdo Baylink: you can have the log dump later if ya want
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13:23Beirdo cmorgan: not necessarily
13:23Baylink Of?
13:23GreyFoxx And at least you can use external tests ike cat /dev/video0 or use mplayer
13:23Baylink Oh, the channel.
13:23cmorgan Beirdo: of course necessarily
13:23Baylink Cool.
13:23Chutt well, the realtime stuff can make the machine hang in some instances
13:23cmorgan Beirdo: a user land program shouldn't be able to hang your machine
13:23Baylink I've actually got it; I'm using naim, which logs *everything*.
13:23Beirdo the driver obviously killed the kernel, but the app is probing the driver in a way it didn't like
13:23cmorgan Beirdo: then the driver should close those holes
13:24GreyFoxx Beirdo: Which is a driver bug since there shouldn't be any input it accepts that makes it freak out :)
13:24Baylink Client call. BBL
13:24Beirdo yes they should, or the app should stop kicking it in that way
13:24Beirdo in that order
13:24cmorgan Beirdo: thats not how it works man
13:24cmorgan Beirdo: drivers can crash your system. its their responsibility not to screw up
13:24Beirdo if you know a certain call is going to crash a buggy driver, you don't make that call.
13:25Beirdo of course, the driver SHOULD get fixed
13:25cmorgan Beirdo: thats how it works with crappy os's like windows. with oss stuff we have the source so it can be fixed
13:25Beirdo but it's still the app killing the machine as the user sees it
13:25Beirdo and if that app weren't running, the machine doesn't crash
13:25o_cee Chutt: my ~/.mythtv/themecache/G.A.N.T..656.552 contains stuff that doesn't belong to gant, like "autoexpire.png".. intended behaviour?
13:25GreyFoxx Which is the problem, users see the drivers/hardware as perfect and infalible
13:25cmorgan Beirdo: the user is just too clueless to realize the root of the cause. it doesn't change the source of the problem though ;-)
13:26Beirdo I'm talking in general terms, not Myth-specific here
13:26Chutt o_cee, it's pulling in stuff from default/
13:26Beirdo true
13:26Chutt and yeah, that's intended
13:26GreyFoxx It's like how people think that hardware "firewalls" are somehow better than software ones. They don't realize that hardware is just software burned to achip
13:26Chutt it's why the progress bar goes across twice =)
13:26Beirdo but for the app developers to insist on kicking a busted driver in a way they know may kill things, that's just silly
13:26o_cee Chutt: allrighty, guess it could be made smarter :)
13:27cmorgan Beirdo: good for them man. they should crash that driver anyway they can until it gets fixed ;-)
13:27Beirdo now not *knowing* that it will kill the driver's the problem :)
13:27cmorgan Beirdo: i mean if they can't check for invalid input what other mistakes are they making?
13:27Beirdo cmorgan: not if you want to use the damned app :)
13:27Beirdo I agree, of course
13:28Beirdo but just because a driver sucks is no reason to keep forcing it to crash then blame the writers of the driver, that's not being cooperative in any way
13:28Beirdo send them a patch to fix their damn driver if they are too dumb to figure it out
13:29cmorgan yep
13:29Beirdo Of course, that being said, ivtv works fine for me :)
13:29o_cee Chutt: another thing with that.. it re-caches it every time i start up mythfrontend.. dunno why really
13:30cmorgan you wouldn't see me working around driver issues if instead i could "help" the driver guys fix their problem by crashing them ;-)
13:30o_cee if it's because i've got it !800x600
13:30Beirdo except when I try to use MPEG1-VCD on a capture, but I have no idea where the blame lies there, and haven't bothered to try to trace that down
13:30Beirdo cmorgan: well, you work around them as they fix the problem
13:30o_cee Beirdo: any progress on mpeg2 cutting yet? ;)
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13:30Beirdo o_cee: not yet, I got sidetracked by nuvexport :)
13:30o_cee Beirdo: bah :)
13:30cmorgan Beirdo: maybe. thats what i'd do if i had a non-oss project and i was working with some non-responsive company
13:31Beirdo cmorgan: even in OSS, get it working while they fix the problem, then do it right with the fixed drivers
13:31Beirdo of course giving them a good test case for the crash is a good thing too
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13:32Beirdo but for the thousands of users using your project, making it work is a valuable thing
13:33Baylink Only thousands? No pressure, of course... :-)
13:33Beirdo heh
13:33cmorgan let them email the driver authors ;-)
13:33Beirdo for this project, yeah, we are in the thousands.
13:33Beirdo cmorgan: that's not how it works, and you know it :)
13:33Beirdo they'll just blame the app and walk away
13:34cmorgan Beirdo: its open source, they got it for free, no one is forcing them to use it
13:34Beirdo I know
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13:34cmorgan people need motivation
13:34cmorgan heh
13:34Beirdo but them badmouthing your project due to someone else's bug that you refuse to work around is not good for you
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13:34cmorgan Beirdo: yeah. i'd probably have a console fprintf that bitched about the shitty driver ;-)
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13:34Beirdo now, if you can't work around it, that's different :)
13:35Beirdo speaking of which, also on my list is to rip code out of avidemux to redo the mpeg cutting from nuvexport :)
13:36Beirdo and I'll likely rework it into mythtranscode once I have the kinks worked out
13:36Beirdo having to use a gtk GUI even when you run in command-line mode is retarded
13:37Beirdo the algorithm seems to work OK, so integrating it for cutting commercials elsewhere makes sense to me :)
13:40Beirdo hahaha
13:41Beirdo from CK's current readme on the ivtv wiki
13:41Beirdo it uses DMA instead of direct memory access, which is dangerous to do anyways.
13:41Beirdo and the difference is?
13:41o_cee heh.
13:42Beirdo I think he MEANT uses DMA instead of shared memory access
13:43o_cee not as amusing :)
13:43Beirdo true
13:43Beirdo what is written makes no sense at al
13:57o_cee haven't used nvidia drivers for a while.. 5336 ok to use?
13:57* Beirdo shrugs
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13:59o_cee seems like i need to refresh.. that was an old version it seems
13:59o_cee 6111..
13:59Chutt 61.11 works fairly well
14:00Beirdo I'm using ATI, so I wouldn't know :)
14:00o_cee Chutt: allright, thanks
14:00o_cee will be nice to have pip and fully working epg again :)
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16:42Chutt heh
16:42Chutt evc++ is so broken
16:43Baylink The make/buy choice is even more of a PITA in OSS than in business, isn't it?
16:43Chutt wrt what?
16:43Baylink Well, in this case, evc++.
16:44Chutt microsoft embedded visual c++
16:44Chutt is what i'm talking about :p
16:44* Baylink thwacks self.
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16:44Baylink D'oh.
16:44Chutt been stuck trying to debug some code for a smartphone all day
16:44Baylink Day job?
16:44Chutt yup
16:44Baylink Where *are* the Ctrl, Alt, and Del buttons on that phone?
16:45Chutt well, part of the problem is that this is some older dev hardware
16:45Baylink Revving out from under you, are they?
16:45Chutt and the usb connection between it and evc++ is all flaky
16:45Baylink Moving targets are such fun.
16:46Chutt heh, this platform was actually retired back in june or so for much better stuff, but it's similar to what a customer wants, so...
16:47Baylink So, question: I'm considering sifting through the codebase and putting in in all that logging (to syslog, by default) that you... damn, can't find the quote in the log.
16:48Baylink "haven't had time for"?
16:48Chutt just adding more VERBOSE() calls?
16:48Chutt as long as they don't get in the way of readability
16:48Baylink No, I mean production runtime logging.
16:48Chutt what's wrong with the verbose macro?
16:48Baylink I suspect *lots* of geeks will maintain mythboxen for lots of non-geeks.
16:48Baylink Like me. :-)
16:48Chutt that's all redirected to a log file if requested
16:49Baylink Yeah, but that doesn't hew to my Prime Directive: Get The Glue Right.
16:49Baylink There are *lots* of syslog-based helper tools.
16:50Chutt right, but the verbose stuff is nice in that it can either go to a console, or to the logfile
16:50Baylink And the currently extant verbose logging doesn't do much for anyone who doesn't understand the codebase fairly intimately, either.
16:50Chutt and there are certainly instances when that's necessary
16:50Baylink And I don't plan to touch the Verbose.
16:50Baylink Overlay, completely.
16:50Chutt so there'd be duplicate sets of logging?
16:50Baylink If someone turns them both on, I guess.
16:50Chutt no, in the source
16:50Baylink I'm big on configuration knobs.
16:51Baylink In places where both I and whomever put in the verbose logging calls thougt there was something to say, I guess, yean.
16:51Chutt that's something i wouldn't like
16:51Baylink Well, I wouldn't presume to *replace* the verbose calls...
16:51Chutt right, but too much non-code stuff just gets in the way
16:52thor_ need lots of doxygen comments to explain the dual logging, 'o course
16:52thor_ :-)
16:52Chutt of course
16:52Baylink Has DG put up his threatened Doxy run somewhere yet?
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16:52Chutt i dunno
16:53Chutt i doubt it'd be very useful, without any comments in the source..
16:53Chutt ah well, gotta go water baby grass
16:53Beirdo actually, it would be fairly useful just to crossreference where things are :)
16:54Beirdo for those of us that aren't 100% up on the code :)
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16:54* Beirdo gets paid. Woohoo!
16:56Baylink If it does execution call-tree tracing, it would be *very* useful to me, just to figure out where to start; I always try to do project intake top-down.
16:57Beirdo it will graph out the classes too
17:02Baylink Oh yeah: C++. <sigh>
17:12Chutt i think something like lxr would be more useful than doxygen, anyway
17:13thor_ running a fever?
17:13Chutt heh
17:17Beirdo never looked at lxr. I will likely run doxygen locally for Myth soon anyways just for my own use
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17:54thor_ ssh: connect to host port 22: No route to host
17:54thor_ bah
17:54Beirdo jeez
17:54Beirdo it's like a daily ritual :)
17:55thor_ time to bring back the celery !!
17:56Baylink I thought that was "make the donuts"?
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18:10o_cee hmm, mythbackends spits out "sh: line 1: mythtranscode: command not found" when trying to start a transcode.. wonder why
18:11Chutt heh
18:11Chutt cvs & everything else is moving to a new machine in a bit
18:11Chutt so, problems should clear up then
18:12o_cee nice :)
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18:15Chutt thor, it's back up
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18:31pbx- why doesn't videometadata have more fields, what happens if I add more fields to it, does anything break?
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18:40dopester .
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19:47chickeneater | hey
19:48chickeneater | if my digital cable box supports s-vidio out, can I just hook that up to my video card instead of getting a tv-tuner?
19:49Beirdo topic...
19:49chickeneater | ahh
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20:52Chutt baylink, currently, the ivtv driver only gives two values for 'signal strength' - there, or not
20:52Chutt (regarding your ivtv-dev posts)
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22:34grassmunk any reason i get this error: Unexpected response to MYTH_PROTO_VERSION 'MYTH_PROTO_VERSION 13'
22:35Beirdo yes
22:35grassmunk oh ok good, thanks... heh
22:35Beirdo because the version of your fronted and backend don't match, most likely
22:35grassmunk no seriously, why am i getting that error in mythweb
22:35Beirdo ah
22:36Beirdo or the version of your mythweb and your backend
22:36Beirdo when you upgrade the backend, you need to upgrade mythweb and the frontend at that time too
22:36grassmunk damn, ok thanks...
22:36Beirdo no prob
22:37grassmunk i installed using an unoficial apt repository, looks like i gotta get my hands dirty
22:37Beirdo using atrpms, you should be fine as long as you upgrade everything
22:37grassmunk nah, im using debian
22:37grassmunk unstable
22:37Beirdo oh
22:38Beirdo likely part of the problem... doing it by hand should work, but I'd think that the debs should be fine
22:38grassmunk well, the front end works like a charm, just not mythweb
22:39grassmunk problem is this is just an overbload VCR so id really like mythweb working... but ill look into it
22:39grassmunk thanks
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22:42Beirdo oh, and BTW, this should be in the -users channel (as indicated by the topic)
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23:20* Beirdo yawns
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23:42mythtv guys do I need to setup the the part in Running X on the PVR-350's TV-Out-???
23:42Chutt read the topic, please.
23:42mythtv got it
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23:43Beirdo and get a real nick
23:47Chutt bah, stupid wince and using shorts for all file paths
23:48Beirdo the first three words pretty well cover it
---Logclosed Fri Oct 01 00:00:43 2004