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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2004-11-12

---Logopened Fri Nov 12 00:00:02 2004
---Daychanged Fri Nov 12 2004
00:00Chutt thor, yup =)
00:00Chutt anyway, back in a few
00:00thor_ I think I need some sleep
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03:55streamtrade I am having trouble making cvs mythtv on fc2 work. I do what is in the docs. First problem, libmyth* files not seen by mythfrontend, solved by moving them to /usr/lib. Now it runs but I get errors from the themes...Any clues?
03:56LLyric If you had to move it, your configure options were wrong
03:56streamtrade I had the rpm binaries installed first and removed them
03:56thor_ your rpm binaries are in /usr/lib/
03:56thor_ anything cvs is in /usr/local/lib
03:56thor_ mix 'n match
03:57streamtrade so, how do I get mythfrontend to "see" the files in /usr/local/lib
03:57thor_ get rid of the rpm's
03:57streamtrade I thought I had
03:58thor_ ls -l /usr/lib/libmyth* ?
03:58streamtrade the only ones there are the ones I just copied over
03:59thor_ why are you copying anything? You really hate ldconfig?
03:59streamtrade I deleted them, now when I run mythfrontend it says cannot be found
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03:59streamtrade not too familiar with ldconfig...but it ran as part of the make install
04:00thor_ take everything out of /usr/lib
04:00thor_ do a make
04:00thor_ make install
04:00thor_ of your cvs
04:00thor_ then an ldconfig
04:00thor_ then try running somethin
04:00thor_ err, something
04:00streamtrade when you say take everything out of /usr/lib you mean all myth*?
04:01thor_ heh
04:01thor_ yup
04:01thor_ not everything
04:01streamtrade just checking
04:01thor_ yup
04:02streamtrade I learned earlier that I need to do a su - to make ldconfig work
04:03thor_ and please do not complain to either Axel for making rpm's available or Chutt for the fact that CVS upgrades are complicated with rpm's already in place
04:03streamtrade no complaints here, just wanna make it work
04:03streamtrade same error
04:03thor_ cool
04:03thor_ error, exactly, is ...
04:04streamtrade error while loading shared libraries: lib
04:04streamtrade cannot open shared object file: no such file or directory
04:04thor_ try: updatedb ; locate libmythtv
04:04thor_ that should take a sec
04:05streamtrade working...
04:06streamtrade finds it in /usr/local/lib
04:06thor_ BTW, the second track of the Grey Album is insanely great
04:07streamtrade is that a sequel to the White Album?
04:07thor_ heh
04:07thor_ bit more complicated, just a side point
04:08streamtrade lots of files in the libs/libmythtv dir
04:10thor_ in which "libs/libmyth" dir ?
04:10streamtrade source/libs/libmythtv
04:11thor_ ok, those are only updatedb finds
04:11streamtrade 4 libmythtv files in /usr/local/lib
04:12thor_ and in /usr/lib/ ?
04:12streamtrade zippo
04:12thor_ ok, command line done ?
04:12streamtrade yes
04:13thor_ where's your cvs directory?
04:13streamtrade slash home/mythtv/mythtv
04:14thor_ and you've done a cd home/mythtv/ ; cvs update ; make
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04:15thor_ bbias
04:15streamtrade I did a cd /home/mythtv; cvs checkout; ./configure; qmkae; make
04:16streamtrade make install
04:19thor_ and that's still working?
04:19streamtrade this does not work for me
04:19streamtrade I get the missing lib message
04:19thor_ well, let's try try cvs checkout -d
04:20thor_ and qmake should be just qmake
04:20thor_ not "qmake"
04:20streamtrade cvs -z3 -d checkout mythtv
04:21streamtrade that is the line i used for cvs
04:21streamtrade should i redo it?
04:21streamtrade the docs say qmake
04:21thor_ not if that's the line you used
04:21thor_ ok
04:21thor_ so, tell me again, what's the error message
04:21thor_ ?
04:22streamtrade mythfrontend: error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
04:23thor_ and you did a "make install"
04:23streamtrade yes
04:23thor_ hmmm
04:23streamtrade it installed those files in /usr/local/lib
04:23thor_ what's /etc/
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04:24thor_ bet you need a /usr/local/lib/ in there
04:24thor_ ?
04:24streamtrade I do not have that file, I have a
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04:24thor_ ok
04:25thor_ what's in ?
04:26streamtrade shall I add /usr/local/lib?
04:26thor_ yup
04:26streamtrade do I need to restart to have it take effect?
04:27thor_ and then "ldconfig -v" as root
04:27thor_ no restart
04:27thor_ this, btw, is why RedHat is evil
04:28streamtrade that got me to my next error
04:28thor_ progress!
04:29streamtrade yes progress
04:29thor_ and the next error is ....
04:29streamtrade next errors are errors loading umage files in buttondefs
04:32thor_ read/write issues vis-a-vis where the files are supposed to be?
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04:33streamtrade I am missing some files in the /usr/local/share/mythtv/themes/default dir
04:34thor_ probably a result of your Freudian desire to usurp your father .... no need to sweat it
04:35streamtrade oh daddy...its all his fault
04:35streamtrade but after all the missing images I get a segmentation fault
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04:36thor_ cool
04:37thor_ Now imagine your pain as a white ball of healing light
04:37shodan I read somewhere in the commits that mythvideo can search for poster picture when it add a movie to the movie list (something like nameoffile.png in the same dir) , I don't think that feature is documented , anyway what I'm looking for is if there's a way to get mythvideo to read all of the metadata from some other file at the same time as the poster picture , is there already such a feature implemented but undocumented or is that wishlist
04:37shodan -land stuff ?
04:38streamtrade hallelujah!!!
04:38streamtrade praise the board!
04:38thor_ shodan, get in line (and probably go to #mythtv-users)
04:39thor_ streamtrade, copescetic?
04:39streamtrade no...I still want to run mythfrontend
04:39streamtrade I get Missing image in Buttondef (many of them) and then a segementation fault
04:40shodan asked in mythtv-users but no answer , also I wouldn't expect someone from mythtv-users to know about undocumented feature , also it's almost 5ham so only programmer are up this late ;)
04:40streamtrade shodan: its only 2 here
04:40thor_ streamtrade, for example?
04:41thor_ shodan, we're being patient with streamtrade because he's essentially cursed
04:41streamtrade Error loading image file: /usr/local/share/mythtv/themes/default/background.jpeg
04:42thor_ ok
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04:42streamtrade and funny enuf that file is not there
04:42thor_ really?
04:42thor_ and where might it be?
04:42streamtrade Thor, thank you for confirming that I am cursed and not totally incompetant
04:43streamtrade the file is nowhere on my machine
04:44thor_ there is no file called "background.jpeg" on your box?
04:44streamtrade correct
04:45thor_ who are you running "locate" as ?
04:46thor_ and just try "background" without the period
04:47thor_ and why do you have no idea what the Grey Album is?
04:47streamtrade lots of backgrounds, some with .png no jpeg
04:48thor_ ok, so go to the next error message (something a wee bit more specific)
04:48streamtrade The grey album is the black and white album..Never heard of it before
04:49* thor_ tries to figure out how to do p2p stuff with irc
04:49streamtrade I have about 20 messages of Error loading image file
04:50thor_ ok, but something with a less generic name than "background" ?
04:50streamtrade title_tv.png
04:51streamtrade title_tv_settings.png
04:51thor_ right
04:51thor_ and "locate title_tv.png" finds nothing on your machine ?
04:52thor_ (these are all things included in cvs)
04:52streamtrade they show up in the G.A.N.t theme
04:52streamtrade not in the default
04:52thor_ define "show up"
04:53streamtrade they are listed in that directory as well as the /usr/local/share/mythtv/themes/G.A.N.T/title dir
04:53streamtrade its as if the app is looking in the wrong place for the files
04:54thor_ let us remain
04:54thor_ ... calm ....
04:55streamtrade Am I missing another Grey album piece?
04:55* thor_ is going to dissappear for about 3 minutes to eat a cigarette
04:56* shodan suggest that thor ssh to streamtrade and be done with it
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05:00thor_ streamtrade, search wired (or google) for the whole "grey album" thing?
05:01streamtrade Thor: I did search, checking on imesh for it
05:01thor_ beside the point for you immediate problem
05:01thor_ err, your
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05:02thor_ but when you do track it down, and when myth is working, listen to the 2nd track, very loudly
05:03streamtrade will do
05:03thor_ cool
05:04thor_ so ... myth is looking for pixmaps that you are sure are not on your box?
05:05streamtrade it is looking for pixmaps in a default theme and they are NOT in the default but they are in the G.A.N.T theme
05:05thor_ can you run mythfrontend?
05:06streamtrade it starts, I see some output, lots of errors loading images and then a segmentation fault
05:07thor_ ls -l /usr/local/share/mythtv/themes/
05:07thor_ ?
05:08thor_ heh
05:08thor_ hang on
05:08thor_ try "whereis mythfronted" ?
05:08thor_ and delete the one in /usr/bin/
05:08streamtrade 10 themes 9pm tonight
05:09streamtrade returns /usr/local/bin
05:09streamtrade make that 9 themes
05:10thor_ whereis "mythfrontend" returns one item?
05:10streamtrade correct
05:10thor_ and .. that ... item .. it ...
05:10thor_ err, ... is ...
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05:10streamtrade mythfrontend: /usr/local/bin/mythfrontend
05:11thor_ and running /usr/local/bin/mythfrontend says what ?
05:12streamtrade and looking at the source tree on cvs on the web I do not see the png files that the app is looking for
05:12streamtrade Running mythfrontend I get 20-40 messages of Error loading image file from the default theme fir
05:12streamtrade dir
05:12thor_ and running /usr/local/bin/mythfrontend says what ?
05:13streamtrade do you want to see ALL of the output?
05:13thor_ about 4 lines of it, yup
05:13streamtrade Could not connect to LCDd: connection refused
05:14streamtrade error loading image file: /usr/local/share/mythtv/themes/default/background.jpeg (twice)
05:14streamtrade more error loading image file same path title_tv.png title_main.png title_music.png
05:15streamtrade do I need to build the add-ons?
05:15thor_ so, what does "locate title_tv.png" say?
05:15streamtrade did my qmake detect the addon source on my machine?
05:15streamtrade it finds 2 instances
05:16thor_ and ... they are ...
05:16streamtrade 1 /usr/local/share/mythtv/themese/G.A.N.T./title/title_tv.png
05:17streamtrade 2) source/themes/G.A.N.T./title/title_tv.png
05:19thor_ I doubt you have a directory called " /usr/local/share/mythtv/themese/" ?
05:19streamtrade correct it is themes
05:20thor_ well, at this point, I would advise you to blow out your database
05:21thor_ cause I have no idea what your problem is
05:21thor_ and I need to sleep
05:21streamtrade can you point me to a doc that says how to blow out the db?
05:21streamtrade I do thank you for your help
05:21thor_ mysql -u mythtv
05:22thor_ err,
05:22thor_ hang on
05:22thor_ blowing out you database is a bad idea
05:22thor_ what was the last theme you were running?
05:23streamtrade Titsomething
05:23thor_ yeah, ok
05:23thor_ one sec
05:23streamtrade Titivillus
05:23thor_ mysql server on the same box?
05:23streamtrade yes
05:24thor_ mysql -p -u mythtv mythconverg;
05:24gecko came in late... streamtrade are you running CVS or .16?
05:24--- User: *** gecko is now known as GeckoFiend
05:24streamtrade cvs
05:25streamtrade I was running binary .16 now trying to run latest cvs
05:25GeckoFiend regardless. Myth will look in the default theme for images it can't find in the current theme, that's why you get the error message regarding not being able to find the images in the default dir
05:25thor_ streamtrade, just exit out of mysql
05:26streamtrade ok, never got into mysql
05:27streamtrade GeckoFiend: is a segmentation fault an expected result if these and other files are not found?
05:27GeckoFiend streamtrade no,
05:28GeckoFiend not having images around should only make them not get drawn
05:28thor_ GeckoFiend, he's apparently getting some kind of segfault as well ... although I'm still not clear on the exact error message ... best of luck ... I need to sleep ...
05:28GeckoFiend night thor_
05:28streamtrade thenk you again thor
05:28thor_ yup
05:28streamtrade thank you
05:29streamtrade I am guessing there is some remnant of my binary myth that is causing havoc with the cvs version
05:29streamtrade Why would myth be looking for images in buttondef WEATHER if I have not yet compiled it
05:31GeckoFiend streamtrade because the button defs are listed in theme.xml file and need to be prescaled on startup and stored in the theme cache for when they're needed
05:31javajunky streamtrade: Not sure if oyu've already checked all this, but is your prefix in correct for your installation, as I had similar problems on my first cvs compile, because it defaulted to /usr/local and I use /usr.
05:31streamtrade GeckoFiend: so do I need to clear out the theme.xml file?
05:31GeckoFiend no
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05:32streamtrade My prefix is /usr/local
05:32GeckoFiend First you need to get you machine cleaned up from the old binary release, that or clean up your new CVS compile and install over top of the binary release.
05:32streamtrade I thought I cleaned out my old binary
05:33GeckoFiend rpm -qa | grep myth | xargs rpm -e should kill it
05:33GeckoFiend then do a make disclean && make in the mythtv tree.
05:34streamtrade ok, the rpm command said no packages to erase
05:34streamtrade I will do a clean build
05:34streamtrade How do I do a clean build? disclean did not work
05:35streamtrade is that make clean?
05:38shodan streamtrade, distclean
05:39javajunky stream, does ls -al /usr/local/bin/myth* return anything ?
05:39javajunky or ls -al /usr/bin/myth*
05:40javajunky or ;) (and this will ake some time) find / -name "mythfrontend*"
05:40streamtrade javajunky: all my files show up in /usr/local/bin
05:40javajunky and there's no myth binaries *anywhere* else
05:40streamtrade javajunky: correct
05:40javajunky ldconfig -p | fgrep myth points to the correct ones as well ?
05:41streamtrade all point to /usr/local/lib
05:42streamtrade so do I want to build in /usr/local or /usr?
05:50streamtrade I will give up for the night. maybe it will fix itself while I sleep
05:50javajunky whatever your system defaults to, what you *don't* want is a mix ;)
05:51streamtrade I must have a mix as I did have the .16 binaries before
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05:57shodan is there a way to have mythvideo fill in the metadata from file during scan (instead of from imdb or by hand) I think there is an undocumented way of getting it to associate a poster picture to a video during scan (by placing a png of the same name as the file in the same dir) , I'm looking for a way to do this with the metadata too
05:58shodan I just need to know if the code's there or not
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09:11eli hi everyone, I am thinking on developing some more add ons and mods to mythTV, can anyone tell me in which programming language is MythTV currently being developed ?
09:13eli c ?
09:14anduin eli - c/c++
09:14anduin c++ really for the myth parts
09:15eli cool, thanks
09:16eli one more question, how is quality of recorded programs ? Is it just like VCR ?
09:16eli better? worse?
09:17javajunky C++ and Qt ;)
09:17javajunky eli, depends on your setup, for me since it comes OTA as mpeg 2, much much better , near DVD quality.
09:18eli Great, thanks
09:18javajunky np.
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10:26o_cee Chutt: should i apply a translation (chinese) that's only for the xml's? the guy didn't seem very intrested in continuing translating the real stuff..
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10:47Chutt might as well
10:47Chutt someone might come along and fix it later
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10:54o_cee okay
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11:15streamtrade I am building from cvs, currently have a lot of errors loading image files (and missing buttondefs) from default theme, then program segfaults. I previously had the binary installed, are there more things for me to clean up? I followed the docs and am right now just building mythtv.
11:19anduin streamtrade - you're theme is broken, revert
11:20streamtrade anduin: mythfrontend does not give me a there a config file that I can change it in?
11:20gr8nash hey streamtrade all these quesitons you have asked are User questions
11:20Beirdo streamtrade: and look at the topic.... you're in the wrong channel (again) :)
11:20anduin streamtrade - it is in the settings db
11:21streamtrade anduin: thanx
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11:24tzanger does anyone here know how to get any changes I make to the -ui.xml files to take effect?
11:25tzanger mythmusic in particular doesn't listen to my default font sizes, I changed the ui.xml, reinstalled mythmusic and it didn't change anything
11:25Chutt make sure your theme isn't installing its own version.
11:25tzanger hmm it's the tivilus or whatever it is
11:26tzanger the one missing NOTHING.png :-)
11:26Chutt i believe that one has its own music ui.xml
11:26tzanger but it doesn't have a mythmusic specific section i don't think
11:26tzanger I haven't investigated that though, thank you
11:26tzanger does anyone here know who wrote Goom viz for mythmusic? I love it, I'm slowly taking it apart to understand it but wow now I remember how much I hated matrices in math :-)
11:27Chutt i integrated it into mythmusic
11:27Chutt it's horribly written code
11:27Chutt you can find the original author with google :p
11:27tzanger yes I know :-)
11:27tzanger it's very messy, just trying ot understand someof the convolutions
11:28tzanger it's amazing how such a small amount of code can create such varied effects
11:28tzanger I see the ifs stuff was taken from one place, but the rest seems to come from a french author
11:28gr8nash Chutt are you allowed or willing to share what software you work on for nvidia?
11:28Chutt from the comments all in french?
11:28Chutt gr8nash, multimedia software
11:29gr8nash they jumping on the dell and mce bandwagon?
11:30tzanger Chutt: yes
11:30Chutt jumping?
11:31gr8nash everyone and there grandma is doing a mediacenter i was just wondering if nvida is doing one as well . thats all =)
11:31Chutt their personal cinema cards need software bundled with em
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11:31Chutt they've had stuff for a while
11:33gr8nash ok gotcha
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12:16gissi Hello all... I'm starting on mythTV now and I'd like to know if there's anything that I can do to help... I'm a C++ programmer and I can do some cleanup's, etc... Anyone can give me some directions?
12:19Chutt do whatever you want
12:19Chutt really :p
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12:21gissi heheheheh there a TODO somewhere?
12:22Chutt nope
12:24gissi hehehe :-) ok then... I'll sign up on devel list :-)
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12:42anduin anyone else looking into the issues that arise when running myth with the new glibc in FC3 (MALLOC_CHECK_ enabled)?
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13:10Chutt anduin, not that i'm aware of
13:10Chutt anduin, what's it turn up?
13:17anduin Chutt - still digging, looks like something in the mysql client library (well that is one of the two, another happens during OSD draw) both happen just often to annoy. I'd rather track them down than disable the checks though.
13:18cmorgan mysql sucks
13:19cmorgan they make the claim in their license that if you use their product for commercial uses that you have to pay for it
13:19cmorgan yet the code is gpled
13:20anduin cmorgan - ah, there are much better reasons to hate it. Still we've all seen how far the "add postgresql" effort has gone.
13:20cmorgan postgresql is massively more difficult to use
13:20cmorgan once you get past the setup/config issues its fine
13:24cmorgan i guess it just bothers me that they would put something so knowingly wrong on their webpage about licensing
13:26anduin cmorgan - they just switched from the LGPL to the GPL for the client library, for me it is just another reason to dislike them (myth is the only thing I have that uses mysql)
13:26cmorgan yeah
13:26cmorgan that also sucks
13:26cmorgan gpl libraries are imo not at all productive for anyone
13:26cmorgan although i guess gpl users will still want to contribute
13:27cmorgan anduin: it should be pretty easy to convert to using postgres
13:27cmorgan the sql is very close
13:27cmorgan bah
13:27cmorgan my english is poor
13:27cmorgan the sql is very similar
13:27Beirdo cmorgan: you can use mysql for commercial uses under the GPL license
13:27cmorgan Beirdo: anything that uses it must be gpled though
13:28Beirdo they are quite clear about that
13:28anduin cmorgan - yeah, I've actually looked a few times, it is right below my "add better socket support, xmlize the myth protocol, etc, wishlist)
13:28Beirdo yes.
13:28cmorgan Beirdo: so it means that your whole app has to be gpl'ed
13:28cmorgan Beirdo: which mostly shuts down business use of mysql unless you purchase a license
13:28cmorgan which i suppose is a reasonable thing for them to do
13:28Beirdo no
13:28Beirdo for internal SQL use, your apps can be GPL as you are the only user anyways
13:29cmorgan yeah
13:29Beirdo GPL doesn't mean you have to distribute
13:29cmorgan so for non-distributable apps you don't have to worry
13:29Beirdo it means if you do distribute, you have to distribute source :)
13:29cmorgan Beirdo: i'm taking shortcuts with what i'm saying because its a lot to type ;-)
13:29Beirdo you can make GPL code that only you and your company ever see
13:30cmorgan this comes up because mono has a mysql plugin
13:30cmorgan the whole licensing thing is in doubt because although it doesn't use any mysql libraries they claim that any use of the server has to be by a gpl app or a licensed server
13:31Beirdo I don't remember having seen that stipulation
13:31cmorgan even though its over a network connection. arguably an issue with the gpl
13:35cmorgan note that they are trying to add additional restrictions to the gpl terms
13:35Snow-Man Postgres fucking rocks, damnit.
13:35Snow-Man Myth sucks for not supporting it.
13:35* Snow-Man fires Chutt.
13:35cmorgan hah
13:36* Snow-Man has bitched about lack of Postgres support previously.
13:36cmorgan why not add it?
13:36Snow-Man It looked like it'd be rather annoying to add.
13:36kvandivo and besides, it's more fun to just complain
13:36cmorgan maybe a weeks worth of work? ;-)
13:36Snow-Man I dunno about a *week*, but it'd be more of my time than I have available to spend on it. :)
13:37kvandivo and besides, it's more fun to just complain
13:38Snow-Man Hey, I'm allowed to bitch all I fucking want. :)
13:38Beirdo hehe
13:38Beirdo cmorgan: I still don't see them adding to GPL
13:38kvandivo of course. no one said you weren't. :)
13:38Snow-Man Beirdo: They'd sure like to.
13:38Snow-Man Postgres is much more sane, it's BSD
13:39cmorgan If you distribute a proprietary application in any way, and you are not licensing and distributing your source code under GPL, you need to purchase a commercial license of MySQL
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13:39Beirdo they even are making specific exceptions to the GPL for use with PHP
13:39Beirdo cmorgan: that's enforcing the GPL
13:39cmorgan Beirdo: sql is a line protocol, like http
13:39Beirdo thats an AND not an OR
13:40cmorgan Beirdo: so i need to use a gpl browser with a gpl'ed http server?
13:40Beirdo you can distribute proprietary GPL code all you want :)
13:41Beirdo that only applies to code you are linking with their code
13:41cmorgan not at all
13:41cmorgan they say "mysql"
13:41Beirdo if you somehow create your own API to access MySQL servers, it doesn't fall under their license
13:41cmorgan yes, you'd think that
13:42Beirdo the server is separate from your application
13:42cmorgan the way they word it it sounds like anytime you run a mysql server you need to use it for gpl apps or have a license
13:42Beirdo for instance, MythTV links to mysql code through Qt
13:42Beirdo if myth weren't open source, we could still have users connect it to a GPL-licenced server
13:43Beirdo but the Myth code would need a MySQL commercial license
13:43cmorgan i agree with you entirely
13:43cmorgan i'm just suggesting that they are being broader than you think they are ;-)
13:43cmorgan or trying to be broader
13:43Beirdo no, I don't think so
13:44Beirdo the application doesn't distribute the MySQL server
13:44Beirdo if we did, that would be different
13:44Brains Copied from a MySQL licensing page: "As long as you never distribute (internally or externally) the MySQL Software in any way, you are free to use it for powering your application, irrespective of whether your application is under GPL license or not."
13:44cmorgan i'd feel better if they specifically said "distributing mysql gpl'ed libraries"
13:44cmorgan or linking to "mysql gpl'ed libraries"
13:44Beirdo well, in your application, that's the only part of MySQL code you are using.
13:45Brains (They later say that copies are allowed, but the copies would be GPL.)
13:45cmorgan mono.bytefx doesn't even use that part of mysql
13:45cmorgan its a completely managed solution, free of any mysql code
13:45Beirdo then I don't see the issue
13:45cmorgan there isn't one
13:45cmorgan i'd just like their license to be clearer
13:46kvandivo their philosophy is that 'if you have to ask, you might as well buy a license'
13:46cmorgan so they make it ambiguous
13:46cmorgan :-P
13:47Beirdo strange how people aren't going off on trolltech's nearly identical dual-licensing for Qt
13:47Brains Beirdo: They did at the time, IIRC. Qt made some changes that quieted things down too, I believe.
13:47cmorgan the issue is whether you consider the line protocol to cause a gpl link or not
13:48cmorgan its simpler to iron out when you link an app to a library
13:48cmorgan vs. communicate with something over a socket
13:48Beirdo the GPL doesn't extend over a communications link that I've ever heard, including reading MySQL
13:48kvandivo well.. to quote their licensing.. "If you develop and distribute a commercial application and as part of utilizing your application, the end-user must download a copy of MySQL; for each derivative work, you (or, in some cases, your end-user) need a commercial license for the MySQL server and/or MySQL client libraries.
13:49cmorgan there you go
13:49Beirdo the onus is on the end user to get the license
13:49cmorgan license for the server
13:49Beirdo kvandivo: where is that listed?
13:49Brains Not that the second part says specifically "derivative work", not "any use".
13:49Brains Not=note
13:49kvandivo ya.. they need to clearly define their terms, and i haven't yet found the 'definitions' page
13:50cmorgan it really sounds like the are saying that to use a mysql server you need to be using it with gpl'ed apps and not distributing it if you are, or you need a license
13:50kvandivo i know what those terms mean in the common vernacular, but i'm not sure if mysql is using the same definitions
13:50Brains I think it is pretty well established that communicating through a socket isn't close linking, but this is why businesses have lawyers...
13:50Brains cmorgan: I read it and got the opposite interpretation.
13:51Beirdo Well, they can take whatever stance they want, the GPL doesn't define it as being tightly linked over a network socket
13:51nhippi aren't the mysql clientside libs gpl also?
13:51cmorgan if they left out the "server" part then i'd agree with their statement
13:51* Brains 's interpretation: "If your application requires MySQL, the end-user must download it. If your application is a derivative work, you need a license."
13:52Brains nhippi: I think they are LGPL now.
13:52Beirdo and of course, just use GPL or compatible licensing and there's nothing to worry about
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13:52kvandivo nhippi: some are.. some aren't.. we are still using version 2.x of the mysql java connector because it is LGPL and not GPL.. all the newer ones are GPL
13:52cmorgan i think they are gpl now
13:52cmorgan the new .net connector is gpl
13:52Beirdo and for MySQL 3 they are LGPL, for MySQL 4 they are GPL
13:52nhippi Brains: the older ones where lgpl
13:52Brains nhippi: Heh, I just misread the LGPL switch, read it the wrong way.
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13:55nhippi and somehow, I have little sympathy for those who want to develop propiertary sofware and at the same time bitch how mysql isn't really open source
13:55Beirdo and for $300USD per commercial licence, quit whining
13:55* Brains chuckles.
13:55Beirdo or $600USD if you want InnoDB
13:55Beirdo if you don't like it, look at the pricing for Oracle and get back to me
13:57cmorgan just use postgres ;-)
13:58kvandivo of all the people here, I'd guess that Snow-Man is the only one that doesn't have a firm opinion on that
13:58Beirdo or that
14:03Snow-Man eh?
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14:04Snow-Man nhippi: It's a bunch of horseshit that they try to claim to be open source when they aren't.
14:04kvandivo you don't have a strong opinion on whether or not postgres is supported, do you?
14:04* Snow-Man smirks.
14:04Snow-Man Myth needs Postgres support. I *hate* having to maintain two databases.
14:05Snow-Man It's crap-tastic.
14:05Beirdo Snow-Man: as long as it will still support MySQL for the rest of us
14:05Snow-Man Beirdo: pffft, fuck that. :)
14:05Beirdo heh
14:05Snow-Man Shit, I think it *should* drop MySQL support, for being shitty.
14:05Beirdo shitty? Got any benchmark numbers to back that? :)
14:06Beirdo performance would be my main issue
14:06Snow-Man Sure, anything that goes over a few connections.
14:06* Brains thinks it shouldn't be coupled with any specific database, but then again, he'll be less outspoken about it until he (or somebody else, I suppose) ponies up some patches.
14:06Beirdo that and the fact that I have many other things using MySQL
14:07Beirdo but the myth stuff is in its own SQL server on the PVR, so that's not really an issue
14:08Snow-Man I seriously doubt you'd have any performance problems w/ Postgres.
14:08Snow-Man Cox Communications, one of the cute white papers on, was very happy with the performance actually.
14:09Beirdo well, I think that removing MySQL support is a bad idea (personally). Postgres is not as well established a codebase as I see it.
14:10Beirdo and since it's not a licensing issue for Myth, I don't really see the point
14:10cmorgan Cox.... heheh
14:10Snow-Man MUhhh,.
14:11Beirdo ??
14:11Snow-Man Beirdo: Postgres isn't as well established a codebase?
14:11Beirdo you lost me there, Snow-Man :)
14:11Snow-Man Perhaps the postgres code in Myth isn't (erm, there is none)_
14:11Beirdo correct, MySQL has been around and stable longer, has it not?
14:11Snow-Man Uhm, no. :)
14:12Beirdo do I have that backwards? :)
14:12Beirdo heh. Enlighten me... Friday afternoons suck.
14:12* Brains chuckles.
14:14Brains Postgres goes back to '94 or so, I think.
14:15Beirdo as does MySQL
14:15Snow-Man Beirdo: See, Postgres has been around longer and has some of these funny properties of an actual database, like, ACID, views, triggers, etc.
14:15Beirdo it seems the core of Postgres was Ingress from 1977
14:15Brains 'Course the first development goes back to '86
14:15Snow-Man I think '94 it started as an open source db, it was based on ingres prier
14:15Snow-Man Err, prior, yeah. :)
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14:15Beirdo and the core of MySQL being UNIREG from 1979
14:16Beirdo so, they are about the same age, both in their root and their current form
14:16Snow-Man Well.
14:16Snow-Man That's true only to some extent.
14:17Beirdo although, as truly open source, MySQL is a newcomer
14:17Snow-Man Many of the 'features' (ie: basic requirements for any real database) for MySQL were only added recently, whereas for Postgres they've been there for a long time and have been well tested.
14:18Beirdo OK. I'm still interested in benchmark comparisons :)
14:18Brains On the other hand, MySQL held the performance crown between the two (by cutting corners, but still). That isn't really true any more... The performance difference is minimal these days, at least according to anecdotes I personally received.
14:21Beirdo but at least Myth ain't using Oracle :)
14:21Brains But... What if I already had an Oracle server laying around...
14:21* Snow-Man has a couple of Oracle dbs.
14:21Beirdo at home?
14:21Beirdo jeez
14:21* Brains is running Postgres and MySQL on his server... MySQL is (at this point) only for MythTV. Very annoying.
14:22Snow-Man Brains: Exactly. :)
14:22Beirdo Brains: I feel for ya
14:22Beirdo but if it went Postgres only, many of us would be in the opposite situation, which would also suck
14:22* GreyFoxx has to deal with Oracle , daily, and unless you are running a huge database serving tons of users with absolute 5 9's requirements is overkill.
14:23Brains Beirdo: Don't confused Snow-Man and me... I'm for db-neutral, not Postgres only. Postgres is just what I would probably end up using...
14:23Beirdo heh
14:23Beirdo Well, I'm sure that would be a royal pain to implement and keep performance up
14:23GreyFoxx Several of our applications at work allow a choice between MySQL or Oracle
14:24Beirdo which I think was what I remember Chutt saying like a month ago
14:24Brains Beirdo: Ah, the "handwave" defense... Only effective because I'm a slacker...
14:24Beirdo if it ends up slower, it won't be all that useful
14:24Beirdo correct me if my memory is bad of course :)
14:25cmorgan it shouldn't be so bad getting postgres support into myth
14:25cmorgan i'd imagine that much of the sql would be the same
14:25Beirdo I think I hear a volunteer
14:25cmorgan hah
14:25cmorgan not i
14:26GreyFoxx cmorgan: I think Chutts main requirements were that it had to be basically transparent to the coder and not add major complexity. IE no coding multiple queries or work arounds for certain db types and such. And of course noone has stepped up to try and make it happen :)
14:27Beirdo and performance
14:27Beirdo :)
14:27GreyFoxx that too. That would piss users off :)
14:27cmorgan well we will add a runtime check for database
14:27Beirdo a translation layer could potentially slow it way down
14:27cmorgan like if(postgres) postgres query else { sleep(100); mysql_query() }
14:28GreyFoxx And of course it would mean if a developer who uses postgres does up amodule someone who uses mysql will need to test it if the original coder didn't want to run both :)
14:28Beirdo heh. trying to spike the benchmarking, are we?
14:29cmorgan Beirdo: its to protect mysql from getting queries too quickly
14:29cmorgan heh
14:29Beirdo that's not an issue
14:29GreyFoxx Bah
14:29Beirdo and since Myth uses Qt even for database access, it wouldn't likely be that simple anyways
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15:25Snow-Man GreyFoxx: That's not reasonable.
15:25Snow-Man Databases are different.
15:25Snow-Man Beirdo: Why are you so worried about performance? When I was playing w/ MythTV it wasn't doing anything that took any effort.
15:25Snow-Man At least, in the database.
15:26Beirdo pulling the schedule is slow
15:26Beirdo always has been for me
15:26Beirdo and it's not just me who's concerned about database performance :)
15:27Snow-Man erm, that's probably just because the schedule is big.
15:27Snow-Man And it has to go through everything.
15:27Snow-Man I doubt the database has much impact on that.
15:28cmorgan just need fancier sql
15:28cmorgan for the scheduler ;-)
15:28cmorgan heh
15:30kvandivo I think we need to throw some object oriented visual cobol at the problem.. that'll make it better
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15:30Beirdo Snow-Man: I agree, but if it gets SLOWER, that's not a good thing :)
15:31cmorgan just put all of the logic into sql. it may be a 6000 character sql command but who cares? ;-)
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15:33Snow-Man Are the mailing lists behaving better now?
15:33Beirdo I don't really notice (on digests)
15:33Snow-Man Your comment doesn't really help (on digests)
15:34Snow-Man :)
15:34mikegrb Snow-Man: <3
15:35Snow-Man Hours or minutes?
15:35Snow-Man 'cause, like, Chutt was bitching about it taking hours
15:35Beirdo my point is, I don't get it real-time, so a delay isn't noticable to me. Got my last digest of -users about an hour ago
15:35Snow-Man Beirdo: My point is that I need to know the regular user turn-around time, so talking about when you get your digest doesn't really help. :)
15:36Beirdo gotcha ;)
15:36Snow-Man mikegrb: Minutes, I hope?
15:36* Snow-Man prods Chutt
15:38mikegrb I dunno, I'm useless
15:38mikegrb but I still love you
15:44* Snow-Man eyes mikegrb.
15:44Snow-Man Beirdo: Check out that link. :)
15:45Snow-Man Beirdo: and/or
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16:05anduin Snow-Man - ~7 minutes
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16:18Snow-Man Hrmpf.
16:18Snow-Man That's not terrible at least.
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16:41mitchel yay =) i just found a way for mythtv to go where no great project has gone before, mythfrontend on an ipod! it only needs someone to make a "dock" or similar type object to connect an ipod too a wifi 802.11b card or osmething similar
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19:38rafise anyone here using Fedora core 3??
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19:47GeckoFiend rafise /topic
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21:50anduin would it be na\xEFve of me to interpret the recent Titivillus checkins as a sign that it works again?
21:53GeckoFiend anduin I had jams spot checking me. It works now.
22:02streamtrade anduin, thank you for the tip on the theme value in the settngs db. Setting that to blue allowed me to uncover that Titivillus was broken at the time.
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22:12anduin GeckoFiend - thanks
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22:45GeckoFiend weee
22:49dopester cool :)
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23:10Chutt geckofiend, those look nice
23:11GeckoFiend been getting tired of hearing how MCE looks so cool so I'm sprucing up Titivillius and giving blue a face lift
23:11Chutt heh
23:12Chutt the icons don't look exactly centered, though =)
23:12dopester bleh.. mce..
23:12Chutt and, neat stuff should be possible with the mythui code
23:12GeckoFiend Chutt yeah I'm just slapping them in for now, I'll play around a bit to find ones I REALLY like then position them
23:13Chutt once i'm finally done with my basement, i'll have time to work on stuff
23:13GeckoFiend I've finally gotten the whole line creation thing for the various boxes down tto a science so they're all a consistent size and what not
23:17Chutt you'll update blue in cvs, eventually, though?
23:18GeckoFiend that's the plan
23:18Chutt cool.
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 13 00:00:23 2004