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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2007-11-21

---Logopened Wed Nov 21 00:00:23 2007
---Daychanged Wed Nov 21 2007
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03:01<lwizardl>hi any devs have a kworld atsc 110 card?
03:03<foxbuntu>lwizardl, what are you looking for?
03:03<lwizardl>foxbuntu, I have asked in the -users channel for help with the card and get no responses so I was wondering if any of the devs have the card and maybe got it to work
03:05<foxbuntu>lwizardl, this is devel support here...however #ubuntu-mythtv will offer support, you can also post in the forums here: or you can wait for someone in #mythtv-users
03:05<lwizardl>foxbuntu, thanks
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03:38<justinh>I've just thought of something. why in hell's name does an unoffical plugin need official support in mythtv's menus?
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04:11<stuarta>justinh: that's a damn good question.
04:11<stuarta>i'd say support no, facilitate yes
05:12<justinh>I committed the change but only because mythfm & mythrecipe are referred to in the core themes
05:13<justinh>maybe it'd be worthwhile somebody seeing what it'd take to make mythstream more er.. official
05:15<justinh>oh bugger. just saw paulh's comment
05:15<laga>on what?
05:15<justinh>bah. I'll reverse the change then
05:15<justinh>laga: #4199
05:17<justinh>aha! there's a typo in the original commit
05:18<justinh>hmm. is there a good reason why some translations are in the xml files?
05:19<laga>because they can't be done with qt?
05:20<justinh>the international characters bugger up my editor. down with nano, then
05:22<gbee>justinh: no idea if it's still necessary for the menu translations to be in the XML, it's not necessary elsewhere and would be trivial to change
05:24<justinh>there was talk again about renaming video sources the other day. would there be any serious objections to that? just something that keeps niggling away
05:26<gbee>best ask on the dev list, no objections from me
05:27<justinh>I know it'll possibly mess up some translations but IMHO it's easily one of the most confusing things for unseasoned users to grasp
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05:29<gbee>I'm all for improving usability and clarity, it's the issue that most interests me lately
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05:34<gbee>Crucial are offering 10% off for the next two days, just wish that prices for a gig weren't still so high otherwise it would be a good offer
05:35<justinh>for completeness do you reckon changing the database names too? vidsrc to epgsrc, videosource to epgsource (or whatever)
05:35<justinh>gbee: I got 1GB DDR2 so-dimm PC533 or something for £17 from the other day
05:36<gbee>justinh: I wouldn't, since it breaks the ability to downgrade and 99% of users are never going to look at the DB
05:37<gbee>when we move to the embedded DB , maybe that would be a good time - there are several columns and a couple of tables which need renaming since they no longer reflect their purpose
05:37<justinh>well I tossed it in there for the sake of completeness anyway
05:39<justinh>if I don't have my mobile CPU by the weekend I'll use some free time to update my spare (dev) machine & work out a patch. should be easy peasy. I should pick up my other grand plans too
05:40<gbee>justinh: ~£20 isn't bad, I'm stuck in a pattern of buying direct from Crucial, guess I need to start looking around
05:40<justinh>that was for Kingston mind you :)
05:40<justinh>paypal reckon my payment won't clear til the 23rd. I might be able to work out the new FE by xmas at this rate :(
05:41<justinh>what I find most annoying is that I've now got more than enough cash in my paypal account to cover it and I can't cancel the original transaction
05:41<gbee>Kingston's ok - all my SD cards are kingston, reliable but dirt cheap
05:42<justinh>reckon I'm on the brink of facking orf paypal & fleabay. I can fully see why people hate them both
05:43<gbee>I've lost all faith in ebay, but so far I've not had any problems with paypal
05:44<gbee>btw, what res are you outputting to the TV?
05:44<justinh>had hassle from that Italian bloke again. He's paid for the item.. where is it already?! Like paying less than £20 postage gets you next day delivery in Europe
05:45<gbee>thanks, that's what I'm doing but because it's not true widescreen my theme doesn't work so well, thinking of trying 1024x768
05:46<justinh>there are a couple of places glass-wide doesn't 'fit' right because of it but I'll live with it
05:47<justinh>only the odd bit of text flowing past a marker by a few pixels, not the end of the world
05:48<justinh>btw I'd expected a bit more of a discussion about theme versioning on the -dev list the other day after paulh piped up about the commit I missed last year
05:48<gbee>mostly I can live with it as well, but if 1024x576 doesn't have a negative impact on video quality then I'm going to stick with it
05:49<gbee>justinh: I typed a reply, then threw it away since the versioning I have in mind is completely different to what paul suggested
05:49<gbee>Paul's idea would probably be too fiddly to work, per-window versioning etc
05:49<justinh>if I remember rightly, I think the conclusion was originally that myth could be made to look for a container in the default, if a missing element causes a container to break
05:50<justinh>or was that just proposed for window elements - I can't remember exactly
05:50<gbee>that's not a bad idea, but on the other hand I'd rather my theme broke
05:51<gbee>if a theme is judged by a newbie on it's appearance throughout, then the last thing I want is a silent fallback to mean that certain screens resemble the defaults!
05:51<justinh>I'm starting to think that there needs to be a lot more discussion about what we're expecting the UI engine to do in future. is it worth the hassle to make everything completely turn-upside-down-able in terms of layout, etc
05:54<gbee>justinh: I think it's worth it because it brings the possibility that someone will hit upon the perfect UI design when theming, we aren't there already and I'm pretty sure that themers have the best chance of achieving it
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05:55<justinh>sure. I wouldn't mind the ability to rejig the EPG pages a lot. I'd much prefer to cut the grid down to just the essentials (like show title) & let the description area do the talking
05:57<stuarta>like every STB does
05:58<gbee>justinh: that can be done through the EPG settings, but I agree it would be nice to constrain the users choices in the theme itself
05:58<justinh>can it?! hahahaha I'd not be surprised
05:59<gbee>err, haven't disabled the genre text in that one - doh
05:59<justinh>shows you how much I use the EPG
05:59<gbee>actually, that screenshot is pretty old
06:00<justinh>wouldn't mind so much if the categories were more accurate ;)
06:01<justinh>ahh! you can also disable the genre colours
06:01<justinh>always hated them
06:02<justinh>oh MUCH better :)
06:03<justinh>and how long have I been using mythtv? oh only like 3 years now
06:03<stuarta>i quite like genre colors
06:03<stuarta>colours even
06:05<gbee>I can live without the genre text so long as I have the colours, helps you pick out the films etc from the grid
06:06<stuarta>although i tend to use the Films search to find them
06:06<justinh>I think I might have to hack glass-wide to make the grid more pretty
06:07<gbee>it's depressing that my OSD is starting to look better than the rest of the theme
06:08<justinh>what depresses me is the fact the OSD menu isn't themeable
06:08<justinh>oh and the qt stuff
06:08<gbee>justinh: aye, at least not with images and there is a limit to what you can do with margin, spacing and gradients
06:09<justinh>also the fact you can't have a user defined menu to cut down on the options you never use
06:10<justinh>though last time I dragged that subject up somebody said they were willing to fiddle with that
06:11<justinh>.. which brings me nicely to a niggle with some recordings from Five having the scan type incorrectly detected in 'auto' mode
06:12<justinh>maybe doesn't afflict versions newer than I've got though. on my list
06:12<gbee> << probably won't make the cut
06:12<justinh>gbee: really love those OSD shots. see what you mean ;)
06:14<justinh>well, when I'm finally able to play SDTV without xvmc I'll start using my own OSD theme with all its transparency niceness
06:15<laga>justinh: btw, i was on the phone with the burosch people today. they''ll let us use virtually everything, eg their test cards and their freely available DVD images \o/
06:15<justinh>burosch ?
06:15<laga>justinh: a german company which makes test cards and other related stuff
06:16<justinh>hucking fell! they'll come in handy at work & will mean I no longer have to make my own discs at home in my own time, unpaid
06:17<laga>for work, you could consider shelling out 20€ for their "dvd discovery". it's in english, AFAIK
06:18<justinh>20 Euro?! NEVER!
06:18<laga>well, make work pay for it. ;)
06:18<justinh>they got rid of our electronic ordering system. now we have to use paper requisition forms & talk to a troll in purchasing
06:19<justinh>it's funny cos the electronic system used to spit out spreadsheets they'd then print out & fax to the supplier
06:21<justinh>bah they don't have any a/v sync test signals
06:21<laga>call them and ask for it ;)
06:22<justinh>even so, their pro DVD at 685 EUR is cheaper than what I'd invoice the company for :D
06:24<justinh>laga: ack?
06:25<laga>acknowledgement? :)
06:26[~]justinh wonders when those nice new LCD monitors are going to arrive. can't be expected to test a cctv DVR with HDMI output without em
06:29<justinh>goes to show how plugged in users of glass-wide have been. horizline.png was missing
07:08[~]justinh chuckles at
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07:46<justinh>gbee, stuarta - seen this? :-O
07:47<gbee>justinh: not that announcement, but I read a leak about it two/three weeks ago
07:47<gbee>there was a pretty unfavourable analysis of it online
07:47<justinh>they can sod off if they think they'll get away with crunching all the channels to fit on one less mux
07:48<justinh>get off our telly you bastards!
07:48<gbee>it will mean reducing quality on existing muxes
07:48<justinh>course it will :(
07:49<gbee>the government just want the cash from the spectrum sell off :(
07:49<justinh>well they can all go to hell. I'll just stop watching telly. END OF STORY
07:49<stuarta>there was a bit in this mornings paper saying the broadcasters had agreed that they want dvb-t HD
07:50<stuarta>but oftcom is still heading for an auction
07:50<justinh>and we all know what a screaming success the 3G spectrum selloff was
07:50<stuarta>bastards! dvb-t2
07:51<justinh>it's not even a standard yet
07:51<justinh>as in .. ink isn't dry
07:51<stuarta>"but we can jam more channels in the same spectrum space"
07:52<justinh>"n time, more than double the capacity of DTT to enable extra television channels". We don't want no more stinking channels, you dumb fecks
07:52<stuarta>time to start writing letters to the culture secretary
07:52<justinh>time to start places horse's heads on pillows
07:53<stuarta>anyone need a sacrificial chicken? that might help too!
07:56<justinh>wtf does the culture sec. know, other than what her 'advisers' tell her? still is Tosser Jowell innit?
07:57<stuarta>you have the following options:
07:58<stuarta>1. The right way. Govt gets 0.
07:58<stuarta>2. The auction. Govt gets $$$$$$
07:58[~]stuarta wonders which option they'll pick
07:59[~]justinh wonders how many companies will bid stupid money after the 3G fiasco
07:59<stuarta>not as many as 3G methinks
08:00<justinh>nor as much, by a long chalk. I hope it falls flat
08:00<stuarta>the spectrum has been passed in at auction, so we'll now do it the right way
08:00<stuarta>methinks a snowball has more chance in hell
08:01<justinh>well like I said there's always the 'abstain from broadcast TV for good' option
08:01<stuarta>i already do. well i still need them to broadcast it so myth can do it's thing
08:04<justinh>I mean abstain from TV full stop
08:10<stuarta>at least this is good ->
08:11<justinh>great. having to use a dish when previously an aerial was enough
08:12<justinh>need C4's channels to go FTA for that to be viable
08:12<justinh>looking at the bright side - hey at least recordings after 2009 will take up less space :P
08:13<stuarta>it's for those who live in a ditch or scotland
08:14<justinh>wonder if/when they plan to move what's left in mpeg2 to h.264 eventually then
08:14<justinh>think you can take it was read that they will want to
08:14<stuarta>of course. leaving more room for yet more channels!
08:15<justinh>more revenues from broadcasting licences!
08:15<justinh>more choice for consumers! er.. no. loads of shite channels is not a choice
08:17<justinh>also on the bright side of ofcom's plan - it totally kyboshes Sky's 'Picnic' thing
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08:21<justinh>I suppose it's nice to see a govt dept. taking onboard new tech. I mean mpeg2 was ancient when OnDigital was launched. That crashing was the ideal opportunity (as with the launch of Freeview) to move to mpeg4
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09:09<gbee>justinh: talking about scaling oddities - got two OSD backgrounds here, same image, same position and when they are both on-screen at the same time they are different sizes!
09:17<gbee>wonder what channels they will offer through this new freesat, whether it differs from the existing freesat and would it involve encryption?
09:26<justinh>gbee: will all be FTA, no strings
09:26<justinh>not like Freesat from Sly
09:27<justinh>gbee: that OSD image thing - what's the difference? one pixel or so?
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09:27<gbee>more like 10, the height is fine, width isn't
09:29<gbee>can't reproduce it now, which is strange, only happened when the OSD was rescaled for 4:3
09:40<justinh>gah starting to wish I'd never brought up that subject on the -dev list now
09:40<justinh>everybody & their cat wanting to give their 2p worth. is there a list where only people with commit access can use?
09:41<gbee>aye, you should be on it
09:41<justinh>well, I'm not
09:42<justinh>not willing to have the whole 'renaming video sources' subject get as drawn out as the website revamp was. long thread, nothing ever happened
09:45<gbee>that's the danger of the -dev list, on the other hand, you sometimes don't get a single reply on the other lists (which I take to mean that everyone is in agreement)
09:45<justinh>nobody has expressed a strong negative opinion yet. I'll give it a few more days
09:47<gbee>think I have to do something with the "Record XYZ" and "Cancel Record XYZ" message, since the programme title can be any length it's hard to do position that information in any sort of frame
09:47<gbee>on the other hand, everything else which uses the settings container is pretty short and of predictable length
09:49<gbee>might be better to ditch the XYZ and popup the program information banner instead, that way users can still see which programme it is that they are recording
09:49<gbee>or even move that message to a new container
09:50<GreyFoxx>I agree the label "Video sources" should change
09:50<GreyFoxx>but I wouldn't rename db tables
09:50<justinh>I wouldn't want to do that anyway. I could do some real breakage bumping schema versions etc - scary
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11:23<justinh>heh. people entirely missing the point in that thread
11:24<justinh>I can kinda understand that actually. from a pure engineering perspective how would you make a connection between a listing source and a tuner input?
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11:45<laga>justinh: heh, that thread kept me entertainined during class :)
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13:18<justinh>I just did a quick grep for 'Video Sources'. gonna need to pick through very carefully when the patch is made
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13:44<nico_>ah wrong channel, going to users
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13:54<gbee>looks like the basedialog background gets drawn twice ... possibly even the whole container
13:58<justinh>better'n' never at all though eh
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14:48<gbee>justinh: heh, well it screws up transparency a little :)
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15:04<justinh>yes! I knew I had a SCART adapter I'd converted to _out_
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15:14<justinh>wooo I've got a kickass way to make a mythtv demo video in future. svideo to camcorder to firewire, to Vegas :)
15:15<justinh>much better when the source video is DV format
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15:17<justinh>what?! people are against using the term 'tv guide' because it's a trademarked name?
15:18<justinh>isn't 'windows' a registered tm too?!
15:19<gbee>yeah, my house has viewing portals
15:19<gbee>"Programming Sources" isn't a bad suggestion
15:20<gbee>though not as clear as it could be
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16:46<bradd>has anyone successfully compiled mythtv on mac osx (intel) with leopard and fink..using configure instead of osx-packager?
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18:58<tzanger>I have located a bug in the dvb tuning code
18:58<tzanger>when you have a switch set as "tone" it uses ExecuteTone() to set it
18:59<tzanger>but ExecuteTone tries ot send a DiSEqC burst instead of just setting the tone to continuously on or off
19:00<tzanger>I changed the code such that ExecuteTone runs m_tree.SetTone() instead of mini_diseqc() and my 4x4 is now properly switching
19:01<janneg>tzanger: please open a ticket at
19:04<justinh>tell you what folks. last time I ever stick my neck above the parapet to suggest a change
19:05<justinh>now the discussion's been bogged down in semantics. I've lost the will to argue the case
19:07<justinh>the .org redesign thread went exactly the same way. what's so damn hard to see that they're not actually sources of _video_ ? next up, what font should the OSD use by default...
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19:16<justinh>well, I _was_ going to issue another reply but I really can't be arsed
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19:32<gbee>justinh: the difference is that you have the power to make the change, almost all those wanting to discuss it in excruciating detail don't - just make the change and if they don't like it, they can submit a patch
19:34<justinh>the word 'excruciating' is very key there
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19:35<justinh>I agree wholeheartedly with Nick about the whole wizard setup stuff, but that's not an easy change to make & will need very careful planning
19:35<gbee>everyone agrees that the current term doesn't fit, it would be pretty hard to chose any wording and not improve it
19:36<gbee>ignore those who are getting sidetracked into discussions on re-writing the settings wizards, if you focus on the bigger picture nothing will ever get done
19:36<justinh>so last time I 'ask the -dev list' then ;)
19:37<gbee>justinh: you had to find out the hard way that open source does not and can not be a democracy
19:37<Chutt>no name changing without developer concensus
19:37<gbee>errm, stick "equal" in there somewhere
19:38<gbee>Chutt: agreed, but we don't need the concensus of every user subscribed to the -dev list
19:38<justinh>Chutt: I agree. nor would I even dream of it. but trying to get a consensus today has just made me regret I ever even brought it up
19:39<tzanger>look good?
19:40<gbee>so far one dev has replied to the topic (excluding Justin) and they are in favour
19:40<gbee>Chutt: justin doesn't have access to the other list
19:41[~]gbee goes back to work
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20:56<Mayber>how do I delete all the channels and "transports" in mythtv and start over?
20:59<madfactor>ne1 here know anything about xebian?
21:01<madfactor>sorry, wrong channel
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 22 00:00:27 2007