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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2007-12-13

---Logopened Thu Dec 13 00:00:27 2007
00:01<jmpdelos> 15051 is definitely what breaks upnp but I can't see why -- the path to the xml file is the same
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00:09<xris>ok, color is a little better now
00:09<xris>but still really pastel
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03:01<neoalex>hi guys does anyone know of a network PAL TV tuner?
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03:29<Matrix9>When you run mc.sql batch file, does it create any tables? cause right now the database is there but it is empty
03:30<Matrix9>woops wrong channel, sorry
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04:29<gbee>xris: I can supply updated images if you want, including corners
04:29<gbee>as far as the css for alignment goes, you can use the stuff from my mockup, since I've sorted that already
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06:00<ben1092>hi fred_basset Dibblah
06:00<ben1092>I checkout mythtv from svn
06:00<ben1092>the crash happens
06:00<ben1092>here is the output fromt eh debugging session
06:02<ben1092>for everyone else. The channel scanner keeps on crashing and here the debugging output
06:09[~]stuarta looks
06:09[~]stuarta <- isn't lagged in the mornings :)
06:10<ben1092>stuarta: welcome :)
06:11<ben1092>stuarta: I remember that u and fred_basset are the same person , right?
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06:14<fred_basset>ben1092: yup
06:14[~]stuarta compiles osx to find the build error
06:15<ben1092>fred_basset: :) did u check the link i sent
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06:15<ben1092>fred_basset: This time I 100% sure it pure svn mythtv
06:15<stuarta>it did an ABRT which != SEGV and not pretty
06:15<ben1092>stuarta: can u tell me what this is?
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06:26<ben1092>stuarta: r u still here?
06:30<stuarta>hmmm, just busy
06:34<ben1092>stuarta: tell me when ur free
06:34<stuarta>just that abort is weird
06:35<stuarta>it's not so much a crash as a bail out
06:37<ben1092>stuarta: I really don't know
06:37<ben1092>stuarta: May be it a build problem
06:37<ben1092>stuarta: some conflicting libraries on my system for example....
06:38<stuarta>thats my current feeling.
06:38<ben1092>stuarta: any ideas....
06:38<janneg>it looks like an error in the ui. best to create a ticket so daniel can see it
06:39<ben1092>janneg: The problem is that its not consistenet. it crashes 95% of the time
06:41<janneg>95% is pretty consistant. I looks like Qt doesn't like the recursive Widget::exec() call
06:42<ben1092>ok I will create a ticket thanx a lot
06:48<gbee>probably related to Daniel's recent MythDialog changes, you could try a version before those and see if it makes any difference
06:59<ben1092>gbee: hmmm. Can u remember when those changes were comitted?
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07:03<stuarta>ben1092: svn log mythdialogs.cpp
07:03<gbee>try [14857]
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07:03<ben1092>gbee: ok
07:04<gbee>just a guess
07:15<laga>stuarta: "I personally hate flash with unbridled passion"
07:15<laga>stuarta: hehehe :)
07:16<stuarta>the alternative would have made me sound like John McEnroe
07:17<stuarta>and i didn't really feel like saying "that's a fucking stupid idea"
07:17<justinh>I would, but I'm not known for being diplomatic
07:23<janneg>the biggest problem with flash is that we would loose portability
07:24[~]janneg has curently no flash capable computer installed
07:25<janneg>s/ installed//
07:26<stuarta>i don't blame you
07:27<janneg>sure, I could install 32-bit compatibility libraries, but why should I
07:28<stuarta>i have work reason to do so.
07:29<justinh>anyway, why add more dependencies when there's no need? ;)
07:29<justinh>sounded like more than $300 worth of work to me anyway
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08:06<gbee>janneg: flash works with 64bit browsers (firefox) using nspluginwrapper
08:07<laga>it works. when it's not busy crashing.
08:07<gbee>laga: never crashed here
08:07<gbee>although it does stop working sometimes until I restart the browser
08:08<laga>it used to be worse here, too. it's fairly stable these days but just not there
08:08<gbee>justinh: what they are talking about it is worth more than $300 (£150), although it's what I'm working on, I'm not going to try and finish it in the time-frame they are after
08:09<gbee>it's the Christmas period after all, I'd like to spend some time celebrating and with my friends/family
08:11<justinh>how dare you put other things before mythtv! ;)
08:12<gbee>nearly forgot, it's my birthday in a week too, so no, $300 isn't worth giving up that time to work on it
08:16<justinh>sooo, OFCOM are going ahead with the auction. surprise, surprise
08:20<janneg>gbee: I know but I would need at least a 32bit libc
08:22<gbee>janneg: guess I missed that dependancy
08:27<janneg>most distros uses multilib 64 bit system and install the 32 bit libs without asking
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08:38<stuarta>for me it's simpler to run the 32bit firefox
08:38<stuarta>not that debian has it anymore. grrr...
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10:54<kitchung>hey, where is the best place to give an idea for mythtv plugin?
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10:55<GreyFoxx>The wiki in the wish list
10:55<GreyFoxx>otherwise if you have code you can put it into the trac ticket system
10:55<kitchung>ah cool
10:55<kitchung>got an excellent idea
10:56<kitchung>many of us have dual head video cards anyway, right?
10:56<kitchung>why not make use of the 2nd head as a digital pictireframe?
10:56<kitchung>get a nice large LCD, dress it up w/ a matte board and a frame
10:56<kitchung>plug in 2nd head
10:56<GreyFoxx>actually I'd say the majority of users running myth are running it single headed. but that doesn't mean they can't make use of the other outputs
10:57<GreyFoxx>Certainly doable. I see it more as a script than a plugin itself
10:57<GreyFoxx>but certainly add it to the wiki wishlist
10:57<kitchung>dunno, i'm new to mythtvb
10:57<kitchung>built my first box last weekend
10:58<GreyFoxx>cool :)
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12:11<xris>gbee: you see my newmyth design changes from last night?
12:12<gbee>xris: some of it in scrollback, seems my connection died so not sure if I missed anything
12:12<xris>mostly just the color adjustments and such
12:12<xris>I sent an email to mythtv-dev with some more info, too
12:13<xris>I really like justinh's newer rendition of the logo
12:13<gbee>saw the colour change, looks good
12:14<xris>I want to toss a gradient on there, but it's a PAIN due to some browser bugs..
12:14<xris>could do horizontal, but probably not vertical
12:14<xris>but I'll have to keep playing with it
12:15[~]justinh takes a small bow
12:15<gbee>just reading the mailing list post, I can provide corner images and play with the icons to give a slight 3d effect
12:15<xris>cool. :)
12:16<xris>I suck at doing that kind of stuff in the gimp, and am refusing to use photoshop
12:20<justinh>just looking at the feature wishlists etc. if only people put as much effort into maintaining the user manual etc
12:20<gbee>the tv image, are you looking for photo realistic or stylised?
12:21<gbee>would a larger version of this one, maybe without the rabbit ears be any good?
12:21<xris>probably a little more color-realistic than just the white for the tv image
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12:21<xris>then again, it might look kind of cool
12:21<xris>if it's easy, go ahead and whip something up.. transparent around the edges and in the center
12:22<xris>then I can composite it on top of the thumbnails
12:22<gbee>it's SVG so I can knock it out in any size or colour
12:22<xris>cool.. keep the white (now I'm curious) and add something more tv-color like grey or maybe black.
12:23<xris>might be nice to have a variety of templates so we can flip between them throughout the site
12:23[~]xris should really install metallurgy on his 16:10 workstations screen
12:24<justinh> is all I've got going on
12:26<gbee>justinh: like it
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12:37<gbee>xris: one possibility, could probably do better with time -
12:38<gbee>if I know what colour background it might be going against, that would help
12:38<xris>gradient is cut off in the bottom right
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12:39<xris>it's probably a little big, but I can size down automatically if needed
12:39<xris>I'd like to keep it background-neutral so we can change that without re-rendering images.
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12:41<gbee>refresh, just uploaded a better one, with an offset shadow (though it could be a little smaller)
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12:42<gbee>the shadow that is, I can make the TV whatever size you need, started big deliberately
12:42<gbee>aspect ratio can be adjusted too, might mean making a new version but that won't take long
12:43<gbee>it's upto you, I just thought I'd suggest this image since I already had it drawn
12:44<gbee>I think something shiny like Justin's one or a photo are just as good
12:45<justinh>photos can be really difficult to separate
12:45<justinh>esp. since a lot of stock images have tricky backgrounds
12:46<justinh>one of the reasons I'm trying to stay away from photo watermarks now
12:49<xris>gbee: now need to make the shadow follow the rest of the light play on the page... so less/no shadow in the top left, and more toward the bottom right
12:51<justinh>nothing like a misplaced highlight/shadow to ruin the overall look ;)
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12:56<justinh>gbee: btw did you fix G.A.N.T's dependency on the ms corefonts? or did I say I would look at it?
12:56<justinh>got a virgin gutsy box here that really doesn't work with G.A.N.T.
12:57<gbee>justinh: I've not changed it, I was being careful since I know that Chutt likes GANT and with the large text, the fonts are pretty important
12:57<Chutt>what's to fix?
12:57[~]gbee ducks out
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12:58<gbee>xris: (shadow appearing inside the TV can be removed if needed)
12:58<justinh>no problem, just thought there was an idea to move away from being dependent on MS fonts assuming a suitable alternative could be found
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13:00<justinh>I'll have a look at it & present some before & after shots
13:01<gbee>justinh: that was my idea, didn't really get discussed with anyone except you and Anduin - ultimately I thought it could avoid the missing font issues seen by some users, expecially if we distribute the 'default' font with mythtv
13:01<Chutt>can't distribute it with myth
13:02<Chutt>since it needs to be visible through X
13:02<justinh>won't harm to toss the idea around though - if the powers that be say ok, then ok. if not, no skin off my nose
13:03<gbee>Chutt: yeah, that is a problem unless we install the fonts to the system location (packagers might hate that)
13:03<gbee>"Bitstream Vera Sans" was my first choice for a default, though after some reading "Dejavu Sans" looks like a better choice, identical font but with extended character support
13:04<gbee>not that I wanted to get into a debate on it tonight, got plenty to keep me busy ;)
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13:05<gbee>Chutt: btw, the background issue gets stranger, when I placed a button into another screen and hooked it up in the code, the background was shown just fine
13:06<Chutt>no idea
13:06<gbee>I've tried to follow the code paths to figure it out, but no luck atm
13:06<Chutt>put some printfs with the name() value in the DrawSelf function
13:08<xris>gbee: yeah, should remove the inside shadow
13:08<xris>or use a different shadow so all of the inside corners are darkened equally
13:08<gbee>ok, I'll do that, just going to eat, back in ~30mins
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13:13<DarkUranium>hey guys
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13:44<gbee>keep the ideas coming :)
13:45<xris>gbee: I like it.
13:46<xris>now one facing right
13:46<xris>and in light grey, dark grey and black?
13:47<xris>then I will have the joy of messing with imagemagick to do the compositing
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14:20<laga>justinh: 404
14:20<justinh>try again :)
14:21<gbee>just using standard pallete greys for those last few, colour would probably need tweaking in a final version
14:21<Chutt>it's too fat
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14:22<gbee>might work better with shine effect
14:22<justinh>fair comment. other languages might have problems fitting text into the button area
14:22<Chutt>and other menus, even
14:22<gbee>justinh: doesn't dropping the font size by a point or two help?
14:23<Chutt>wouldn't want to make it much smaller..
14:23<justinh>gbee: maybe, but Chutt's right. it is fatter
14:23<Chutt>it looks like the kerning info's not present
14:23<clever>ive tweaked a few of my font sizes to get things to fit
14:23<justinh>they're about the right height
14:23<Chutt>or just crappy
14:23<Chutt>look at the space between the 'an' in Manage
14:24<clever>but increasing the column size did a better job then shrinking the font
14:24<justinh>I didn't think the difference would be so obvious
14:24<justinh>they're similar, sure - but not enough
14:24<gbee>ah well
14:24<justinh>and I agree about the kerning looking wrong too
14:25<justinh>fwiw it's not that much effort to install msttcorefonts
14:26<justinh>there's plenty of other contentious stuff mythtv relies on so where's the harm. was worth a look anyway
14:28<justinh>hmmm seems the PAL mode on intel tv out isn't the only thing with chroma flicker. gonna have to put the video out under the 'scope again & see if I can't fix it for everybody
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14:29<GreyFoxx>updating the driver itself ?
14:29<justinh>GreyFoxx: aye
14:29<justinh>register settings 'nearly there' - very good educated guesses from specs & datasheets by the look of them but the real world seems to differ somehow
14:33<justinh>the Intel TV out is the best I've ever seen on my TV. very crisp & bright with excellent contrast. the newer driver offers amazing scaling/position control too
14:34<justinh>made me change my mind about open source video drivers infact. used to think 'yeh it works, so what?'. if nvidia tv out was broken - I'd not be able to even look at it of course, so yay for open source
14:35<clever>nvidia tvout under xp was horid(might have just been the acient tv and 60hz noise)
14:36<clever>but under linux its perfect
14:37<clever>originaly used it with a tv that was allmost from a time before remotes:P
14:38<laga>you know what they say: linux makes your older hardware usable again
14:38<GreyFoxx>justinh: What chipset? It's the onboard one right ?
14:39<clever>laga: yeah even my 50mhz with 20mb of ram is allmost usable:P
14:39<justinh>GreyFoxx: aye
14:39<clever>laga: if i could only get the pcmcia bus to work it would be a good thin client
14:39<clever>fixing the boot would also help(grub geom error)
14:39<GreyFoxx>justinh: Which chipset?
14:40<GreyFoxx>hehe does intel even sell AGP video cards? Seems all I ever run into with an intel chip is onboard
14:40<clever>i have a onboard intel video in my acer system
14:40<justinh>GM945 IIRC
14:41<gbee>prefer the plain white myself
14:41<justinh>looks like the AA went wrong somehow
14:41<GreyFoxx>Any idea what kind of tvencoder chip they are using? They use fs chips on some stuff, and conexant on others
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14:42<justinh>GreyFoxx: it's built-in AFAICT
14:48<gbee>I'll wait for feedback from xris before working it further, don't want to spam the channel with a hundred different versions
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15:00<gbee>the AA problem is annoying, not really sure what the cause is, but could be that it's trying to save resources because I'm a little low on memory
15:01<xris>gbee: I'd keep the knobs all the same shade of grey no matter what the color of the tv frame
15:02<xris>tv 9 looks good
15:02<clever>i got a bit of a problem here
15:02<clever>331mb in core dumps
15:03<clever>all mythshutdown
15:03<clever>50 seperate dumps
15:03<xris>gbee: I'll have to look at all of them when I get home tonight. too much stuff going on at work now
15:03<clever>i can get a bt of a few
15:03<gbee>xris: np
15:03<gbee>going to watch TV
15:05<clever>symbol loading is a bit slow over nfs
15:07<clever>who wants to read over and find the crash source?
15:13<clever>51 core dumps
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15:30[~]justinh gives up trying to configure mythweather
15:32<Anduin>clever: I'd try changing taskqueue.cpp TaskQueue::RequestTerminate() change the wait(1000) to wait() (I didn't look elsewhere to see if this would be bad, but what is there, isn't right)
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15:58<gbee>believe it or not, but the aspect ratio of that are perfect for 16:9 screenshots, wasn't intentional just happened that way by chance
15:58<justinh>ahh! missing perl modules!
15:59<gbee>justinh: heh, yeah, downside to using perl scripts
16:00<gbee>we need to get a full list of the ones used and maybe we can do some test for them, instead of failing without any errors visible to the user
16:00<justinh>ugh who thought t9 text entry was a good idea?
16:01<justinh>gbee: only ones I found missing were image::size and XML::Simple
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16:03<gbee>that reminds me, when some version of remote friendly edit box is created for mythui, we need to make sure that the text entry mode can be disabled on a case by case basis in the code, numeric-only fields are a pain atm
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16:04<gbee>e.g. typing in the year for metadata in mythmusic, takes 20 button presses to type 2007
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16:05<gbee>even more frustrating when that's 222222222,000000000000,00000000000,777777777777
16:06<justinh>hmm background is in database but not theme file
16:06<justinh>I think we have a new contender for most difficult plugin to theme
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16:08<wild_oscar>good evening
16:08<wild_oscar>is this the hideout of mythweb devels as well?
16:13<wild_oscar>i was wondering how I could help develop this component
16:14<laga>they occasionally flock here
16:14<wild_oscar>i just installed mythtv in the mythbuntu flavour
16:15[~]justinh offers his condolences
16:15[~]laga throws rocks at justinh
16:15<wild_oscar>to having installed mythtv?
16:15<justinh>just having a pop at mythbuntu
16:16<wild_oscar>my primary usage will be watching videos on a remote computer
16:16<wild_oscar>and because the laptop with mythtv is on my living room, and with the lid would be nice to be able to manage the video collection through the web interface
16:17<justinh>so you're offerring to help with the streaming part of mythweb? if you have any improvements in mind, discuss it on the -dev mailing list or attach patches to tickets in trac at - or both
16:17<wild_oscar>not the streaming part
16:17<wild_oscar>the administration of video files
16:17<justinh>same applies :)
16:18<wild_oscar>metadata editing, integration with imdb
16:19<cccp>are you using the svn version?
16:19<wild_oscar>are plugins independent of mythtv version?
16:19<cccp>i believe mythvideo already offers editing the data in mythweb
16:20<wild_oscar>ie, can I replace just the mythweb component with the svn one?
16:20<laga>wild_oscar: no
16:22<wild_oscar>laga: how can I test the latest mythweb version then?
16:23<justinh>uninstall all the mythtv packages, install subversion and all the build-dep stuff, then grab the source out of svn
16:23<laga>wild_oscar: by installing trunk. it might be possible to do that in a virtual machine like virtualbox or vmware or you can just install it on your production box if you don't care about things breaking
16:23<justinh>and now it's not a development discussion anymore
16:24<xris>gbee: very nice.
16:24<xris>I'm going to try to extend things under the edge (overscan!) when I set it up for real, but that looks sweet
16:24<laga>if you just want to fool around with mythweb, it might be sufficient to get the semi-official mythbuntu trunk packages and install mythweb from trunk separately. (do _not_ hack on a packaged version of mythweb)
16:25<gbee>xris: yeah, metallurgy only tolerates a 5% overscan and this TV overscans by a little more ;)
16:26<gbee>it's the rounded corners :)
16:26<xris>yeah.. it'd be fine for a link to the real screenshot, though
16:40<gbee> :D
16:43<xris>gbee: yeah, it's nice
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16:46<gbee>xris: heh, sorry I'll stop now
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16:59<mo0dbo0m>hey - noob dev alert - i had to do this to get mythtv svn compiling, seems... crufty...
17:00<mo0dbo0m>is there a more standard way?
17:02<gbee>./configure --prev, make, make install
17:05<mo0dbo0m>channel_changers gives me "'LLONG_MAX' undeclared" trouble - oh well, not a big deal
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17:28<laga>hum. how does mythtv decide which theme to use? i've got two themes with <name>blootube</name> which reside in different folders. is the folder name or the xml stuff put into the DB?
17:28<gbee>probably need to run these images through Gimp to sort out the anti-aliasing, seems the level of anti-aliasing in the exported image can't be changed in Inkscape
17:29<gbee>laga: folder name
17:29<laga>gbee: yay. thanks.
17:30<gbee>the themeinfo is just used to determine the properties/metadata of the theme, but internally we still use the folder as the unique identifier
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18:35<stuarta>anyone know how to get a library prebound on OSX?
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18:36<janneg>newest svn still doesn't work because of circular dependencies?
18:36<stuarta>gets further than before.
18:37<stuarta>trying the swapped libmythui & upnp atm
18:42[~]stuarta wonders why gbee converted a VERBOSE to a cerr in 15153
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18:50<gbee>had some notion about removing the dependancy on libmyth
18:50<gbee>kinda futile
18:50<stuarta>thought it mighta been that
18:53<janneg>hmm, where is my first mail to mythtv-dev?
18:53<janneg>the second already appeared
18:53<stuarta>was the first bigger?
18:55<janneg>no, just a couple of lines
18:55<janneg>I've resent. it's not queued on my mailserver but it wasn't sent
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19:15<Mersault|Laptop>Hello. MythMusic crashes when scanning my music collection, and crashes the entire frontend. I'm using the weekly svn builds from the mythbuntu project. I'm curious if I can enable logging or debugging in mythmusic and provide anything useful for the mythmusic developers.
19:17<Anduin>Mersault|Laptop: I think gbee added the file scanned to -v file
19:17<Mersault|Laptop>you mean mythfrontend -v logfile?
19:18<Mersault|Laptop>how recently?
19:18<Anduin>Mersault|Laptop: I mean -v file, and in [14722] trunk
19:19<Mersault|Laptop>okay, will try that and see if I get anything interesting.
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19:24<gbee>last couple of crashes reported weren't reproducable on my system when I was sent the mp3 causing the problem
19:24<gbee>looked like they might be build issues with taglib on the distro in question, but that's just a guess (not even an educated one)
19:24<Mersault|Laptop>I had an svn package from late october or november that would make it through my collection
19:24<Anduin>gbee: This was before the taglib version was more strict?
19:24<Mersault|Laptop>but then my system disk crashed, and the builds since the crash have not worked
19:25<Mersault|Laptop>gbee: what distro was the other person using?
19:25<gbee>Mersault|Laptop: give me a minute, need to find the ticket
19:26<Mersault|Laptop>"terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::bad_alloc' what (): std::bad_alloc
19:26<gbee>Anduin: before and after, but in all cases I made sure they were using the latest version of taglib
19:27<gbee>Mersault|Laptop: looks like a build issue to me, but I wouldn't take my word for it
19:28<Mersault|Laptop>alright, anything I can provide that would help determine that? I have a core dump and the file that caused it
19:32<gbee>Mersault|Laptop: how big? You can email them to me and I can take a look tomorrow, if you want?
19:32<Mersault|Laptop>it's 30 megs...
19:32<Mersault|Laptop>the dump, that is...
19:33<Mersault|Laptop>I can zip them up and put them on an ftp site and email you the link if you'd like
19:34<gbee>Mersault|Laptop: in that case, run it through gdb first - I'll get you the URL to instructions
19:34<gbee>just looked at the original ticket, doesn't look like I asked what distro they were using
19:35<gbee>Chutt: 'accepted' tickets are also stuck open
19:36<Mersault|Laptop>alright, thanks
19:37<Mersault|Laptop>hmm... alright, I'll see if I can get this done in the next couple of days
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19:43<gbee>can't think of anything that has changed in the scanner since Oct/Nov, so if it worked back then, it's probably not a mythtv bug
19:43<gbee>all the same, I'll take a look
19:50<gbee>xris: I tried the indented look on those icons and although it looked great whilst I was working on it at 300% zoom, when I exported them at normal size to show you, you can't see the effect anymore, it actually looked worse than before
19:50<gbee>so I guess the icons are just too small, if we had larger icons then it might work
19:53<xris>gbee: I was actually talking about indenting the entire box, not the icons
19:53<xris>so each light-grey area would be indented
19:53<gbee>heh, ok
19:54<xris>basically the opposite of the outdenting here:
19:55<gbee>the light grey area being the byline box?
19:58<xris>the three at the top, and then each of the newsblog boxes below
19:58<xris>any indenting of more than 2-3 pixels will look overdone, but it needs something to set it apart from the rest of the page.
19:58<xris>it'll also let us do rounded corners that look nice and keep Chutt happy.
19:59<gbee>right, just re-reading your email a little more carefully
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20:00<xris>I think it's time for me to go home...
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20:47<Chutt>rounded corners!
20:47<Chutt>gbee, which one?
20:49<gbee>#4081 too
20:49<gbee>xris: not sure if this is close to what you are after?
20:50<Chutt>accepted should be a valid state
20:50<xris>gbee: yeah.. though at that point, it's probably worth just removing the border color
20:50<gbee>Chutt: doh, sorry, wasn't logged in
20:51<gbee>xris: ok, I'll work on it tomorrow if I get time
20:52<xris>gbee: thanks a bunch
20:52<Chutt>gbee, what was the 'reopened' ticket?
20:53<xris>Not sure if I'll have time tonight or not to get the thumbnails added to the tv icons, but hopefully I can
20:54<Chutt>trac's going down whilst i fiddle with the database
20:56<Chutt>ok, works
20:56<Chutt>gbee, i closed that for you
20:58<Chutt>you don't happen to know of any others like that?
20:58<Chutt>there were a bunch of 'reopened' status tickets
20:58<gbee>Chutt: no, sorry
21:01<gbee>xris: if you can let me know which one you preferred best, then I can get a version in the size you want with fewer anti-aliasing issues
21:02<xris>gbee: probably the lower one.
21:03<gbee>meant the TVs, but that too :)
21:03<gbee>this is the last state of the TVs:
21:18<Chutt>playing with the tickets?
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23:08<xris>gbee: looks good.. though might be better if the knobs on the TV were the same color... a medium grey?
23:09<xris>then they'd stand out against white or black.. and then maybe make them dark grey if we have a medium grey tv
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 14 00:00:32 2007