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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2008-01-30

---Logopened Wed Jan 30 00:00:34 2008
---Daychanged Wed Jan 30 2008
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01:37<superm1>i'm preparing the trunk related builds for hardy, and i'm seeing all these extra options for building with external libraries such as x264. Since we have a modern x264 in apt, would these be fairly beneficial you suppose?
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02:11<superm1>oh nvm, those are in BLOCK_QUOTE sections of configure :)
02:11<superm1>my bad
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04:33*justinh limbers up
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05:45<justinh>seems there are a lot of variables in mythappearance - is that likely to be a concern if they all end up in the setup screen code?
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06:24<justinh>I _think_ I'm kinda getting my head around this now :)
06:25<superm1>in videoout_ivtv.cpp, where is has_v4l2_api and has_pause_bug supposed to be defined?
06:25<superm1>i must be going crazy, i can't find definitions in any headers
06:26<justinh>you fixing pvr350 stuff? rather you than me superm1
06:26<superm1>justinh, well i was just building, and then realizing there is a bunch of broken stuff
06:27<superm1>was it just an incomplete patch someone started to do?
06:27<justinh>don't remember seeing a pvr350 patch for ages
06:27<laga>bunch of broken stuff?
06:27<laga>in the trunk builds?
06:27<laga>never noticed any broken stuff.
06:28<laga>superm1: i haven't built head in a while, but it used to work pre-multirec merghe
06:28<superm1>well it worked post multirec merge i thought too.
06:29<laga>i never built on hardy, though
06:29<superm1>well when did those two calls suddenly show up?
06:29<superm1>lets see.
06:32<laga>superm1: 27s from power-on to X + xfce running with aufs.
06:32<superm1>oooh very nice
06:32<superm1>aufs sounds like the way to go
06:33<superm1>well that commit was 4 months ago. i wonder if this is only failing on hardy (eg newer kernels)
06:33<superm1>well it shouldn't, since the kernel source doesn't get installed
06:34<laga>headers get installed, tho
06:34<laga>don't they?
06:34<superm1>i don't think so
06:34*laga wonders how long booting will take once HAL is enabled. anyways, OT here
06:35<superm1>well linux-libc-dev is installed
06:35<superm1>but nothing more
06:35<laga>and some dvb headers IIRC
06:43<superm1>not in any of the headers on my normal system eitehr
06:43<superm1>the only results google is finding point back at myth sources.
06:43<superm1>hmm weird.
06:43<laga>heh .)
06:43<laga>gotta run, laters
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06:49<superm1>well wtf? it's supposed to be in videoout_ivtv.h
06:49<superm1>i must have a wacky checkout or something
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07:08<justinh>bah I wish I'd done a checkout & build much earlier. this compile is going to take ages to fail
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08:07<justinh>think I've bitten off more than I can chew :(
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09:02<gbee>42in TV which runs linux ... think you can see what I'm thinking here
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09:06<MrGandalf>nope.. what are you thinking? :)
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09:06*gbee goes fishing for trout
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09:18<justinh>hmmm a tv with less computing power than an epia m10k. yeah. that'll do web browsing & email
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09:25<gbee>aww, where's the optimism? :)
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09:26<justinh>shot to bits after battling most of the day with globalsettings.cpp :)
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09:28*gbee considers writing to Asus suggesting that if they send the developers one each we might adapt MythTV to run on the device
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09:47<GreyFoxx>gbee: That'd be sweet :)
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10:18<reynaldo>sphery: you around ?
10:19<reynaldo>I'm having problems understanding the 'draworder' meaning in the xmls.
10:20<justinh>reynaldo: supposed to mean the order you want things drawn in
10:20<reynaldo>I also would like to understand how to make a simple spinbox/combobox in the xml ui definition and in the code.
10:20<justinh>higher numbers should appear on top
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10:21<justinh>reynaldo: you can't do a spin/combobox in a theme
10:21<reynaldo>justinh: it is my understanding you have to use a blackbox ?
10:21<justinh>a blackhole? I wouldn't
10:21<reynaldo>thanks for the draworder explanation, so that way you can control how ab objects hides others in its back?
10:22<reynaldo>(my english is far from perfect)
10:22<reynaldo>yeah, blackhole, sorry
10:22<justinh>reynaldo: if you want to hide things from time to time, use contexts
10:22<reynaldo>oh, thanks.
10:23<reynaldo>justinh: can you elavorate on how to hook a spinbox to a given ui then ?
10:23<reynaldo>I'd really appreciate that
10:23<justinh>reynaldo: they're all hard coded right now. in the source code, not xml
10:24<gbee>reynaldo: spinboxes are only used for settings in mythtv, settings should use the "settings wizard code"
10:25<justinh>you can make a container type to be able to control the position of the spin/combo box I suppose but that's messy IMHO
10:25<reynaldo>gbee: you mean I should call, ie, static HostCheckBox *MythControlsVolume()
10:25<reynaldo>from my code ?
10:25<gbee>something like that, yes
10:26<justinh>arghhh not the settings wizard code :(
10:26<gbee>it's nasty stuff :/
10:26<reynaldo>gbee: in what way it wouldnt be like that ?
10:26<reynaldo>i mean, why the 'like'
10:27<reynaldo>why can I just make a spinbox/combobox for myself ?
10:27<gbee>reynaldo: I don't know exactly how it should be done, because I've never done it
10:27<justinh>gbee: btw thanks for the inheritance explanatin yesterday but it didn't give me much of a start in the settings wizard things. appearance settings page needs some work to accept an extra button methinks
10:28<justinh>they're way way WAY above my head. I kind of know what needs to be done but not how to do it
10:28<reynaldo>justinh: is there any reason why someone would like to use a blackhole to host/hook at spinbox in/to a theme ?
10:28<justinh>reynaldo: it's nasty, that's why not
10:28<reynaldo>ok, hard to know what's right when all you have is the sourcecode
10:29<reynaldo>there are several places where that approach is used in mythplugins's code
10:29<justinh>yeah and none of them are nice
10:29<reynaldo>so I should just code the spinbox and hook it to the theme using ... what ?
10:29<reynaldo>an example would be awesome
10:30<justinh>reynaldo: the xml parser can look for all kinds of area tags
10:30<justinh>what is it you're doing anyway, if you don't mind me asking?
10:31<reynaldo>I'm doing some mythplugins for a client
10:31<justinh>what kind of plugins?
10:31<reynaldo>the one I'm dealing with right now changes the lang and the tx
10:32<reynaldo>and I do understand you dont want something like that in your code, you want to use the settings wizzard and that's perfectly ok
10:32<justinh>as plugins? ahem.. says the pot, about to call the kettle.. #
10:32<reynaldo>client does not, he wants a plugin
10:33<reynaldo>so Im there, I do have code in several other FOS projects and I'm starting to like mythtv aim so I might as well throw some bits here latter
10:33<reynaldo>right now, I just want to have this simple things done
10:34<reynaldo>heck, even mythtv has code from me already, grep around for 'Reynaldo H. Verdejo Pinochet'
10:35<reynaldo>so, justinh, do you think you can throw me an example
10:37<gbee>the settings wizard can be used from within a plugin, it depends on the effect your client wants
10:38<gbee>there is actually a window already written to change the language, do you know about that? It's only displayed the first time you run mythtv but it might be useful
10:38<reynaldo>inmediate change of the tz and the lang for the frontend and for the account in which it is running, the latter is already taken care of
10:38<reynaldo>gbee: I saw it the first time, yes
10:39<reynaldo>I can think a zillion of other uses to this piece of 'how to put an spinbox/combobox in a ui' knowledge so I'm looking into it
10:39<gbee>you can add a hostComboBox etc to the page and use a 'blackhole' to determine the positioning like you originally suggested
10:40<reynaldo>but justinh said it was ugly, is there a better/neater way ?
10:40<justinh>blackhole would be the easiest, not necessarily the 'best' way IMHO
10:40<Chutt>there's no other way.
10:41<reynaldo>Hi Chutt, so thats why the approach, while ugly to mosts, is actually used in the code?
10:43<justinh>anyway, I have a better answer to why mythappearance is a plugin. I can't integrate it myself. merry hacker maybe, but I'm not experienced or knowledgable enough
10:44<gbee>reynaldo: a lot of hacks and ugly approaches were used because they were quicker than making the proper changes to the UI code
10:44<gbee>we hopefully won't make same mistake for the new UI code
10:45<reynaldo>more power to you :)
10:45<gbee>for your purpose, writing for a client where time is a factor, then using a blackhole is the best option - were you writing the same code for inclusion in mythtv, we'd probably require it done differently
10:46<reynaldo>Oh, I'd actually would want to make it right to look out for future inclusion.
10:46<reynaldo>that would be better for my client in the long run
10:47<justinh>then tell them settings wizards should be built-in, not in plugins ;)
10:47<reynaldo>having code out of the main project's tree is a PITA
10:47<justinh>I can tell you from experience that's much easier said than done!
10:48<reynaldo>problem is there is something fundamentally wrong with the settings wizzard
10:48<reynaldo>you cant have the language choice buried down a few windows up on the road
10:48<reynaldo>it should be the first
10:48<justinh>it's presented the very first time you run mythfrontend
10:48<reynaldo>it should even be always there, maybe in a corner
10:49<reynaldo>justinh: ever thought you might not be the one who made the first installation ?
10:49<justinh>how many people are going to need to change it more than once?
10:49<reynaldo>who knows
10:49<gbee>if that is the case, then creating a spinbox and the other necessary 'entry' widget for libmythui would be necessary (a lot more work than using the blackhole hack with libmyth), frankly I'm not sure you want to take that route unless your client has deep pockets and is willing to fund you to work the extra time
10:50<reynaldo>maybe, I'm not sure, but i do like to make things right most of the time :)
10:50<gbee>justinh: depends what the client want's to use it for, e.g. in a public space, an information kiosk etc, you need to change the language easily
10:51<reynaldo>yup, public usage is a pretty good point
10:51<reynaldo>justinh: what if you want to put it on a kiosk on an airport lobby ?
10:51<justinh>gbee: I was talking about our context.. the mythtv user at home. waste of time having a language settings box on every screen
10:51<gbee>reynaldo: you might consider doing it without a spinbox? Show a 'Change Language' button on the screen and then launch a new page with seperate buttons for each language
10:51<justinh>reynaldo: I wouldn't make it a spinbox or combo box for one thing
10:52<reynaldo>gbee: yup, on a corner while on every state but playing something
10:52<reynaldo>that would be awesome
10:52<justinh>the very first screen would ask you what your lanugage preference is, then present nice big buttons
10:52<gbee>maybe even with flags
10:52<reynaldo>show a little flag on the top right corner, ppl easily recognizes that
10:53<reynaldo>he, you stole my words
10:53<justinh>reynaldo: not on every menu. not for mythtv users. that'd suck. in your own code sure, yeah knock yourself oout
10:53<reynaldo>justinh: I wont even argue that without code ;)
10:54<justinh>reynaldo: if every screen in mythfrontend, as it is now - had a language setting gadget on there it'd be a waste of time for 99.9% of users :) there's too much info to show onscreen at once as it is
10:55<reynaldo>I see your point, really, but make an effort and you will see mine too
10:55<reynaldo>anyway, I'm right now looking into get this done, then we can argue about its worth and form
10:56<reynaldo>'client is always right'
10:59<justinh>how many different languages would you want to be able to choose from?
10:59<reynaldo>every language with an usable translation oc.
10:59<reynaldo>6-7 ?
10:59<justinh>IMHO it'd be better to just put a button up there saying 'change lanugage' or whatever, then present the user with a grid of buttons. heck, even a couple of pages. much nicer than a spinbox
11:00<justinh>way easier to code too
11:00<reynaldo>yup, thats why the cornered flag
11:01<justinh>especially if the end product _is_ some kind of kiosk. mouse controls on those things are generally lame
11:01<reynaldo>the options were never meant to be on the same page
11:02<reynaldo>oh, I take that back, it was 'the options were'
11:02<justinh>buttons can be made easier to see than small text in a spinbox too
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11:03<justinh>and _anything_ looks better than qt spinboxes :)
11:03<reynaldo>is there any programatic way to get the translated languages list, not the entyre lang list
11:03<justinh>reynaldo: probably easier to make the list yourself AFAIK
11:03<reynaldo>I could harcode them from the main menu xml .. has that changed a lot lately ?
11:03<justinh>not in terms of new languages being added, no
11:04<reynaldo>oh, nice, I have already worked with buttons.
11:04<justinh>actually another thing you could do if you don't like the button idea is this:
11:05<justinh>listitems like those the menus use
11:05<justinh>again MUCH nicer than any ugly qt spinbox
11:06<reynaldo>I have an ongoing network configuration plugin too, maybe that would be of some use to you guys
11:06<justinh>and again you aren't limited to just small text
11:06<reynaldo>justinh: thanks for the idea
11:07<justinh>reynaldo: if it's just for one screen to put the tz & language settings on, 2 spinboxes would look like you'd not done much too :P
11:08<reynaldo>justinh: could you brief me on listbtnarea usage ?
11:08<justinh>not without a % cut of your fee & finding out how they work myself :P
11:09<reynaldo>oh, kinda see that comming
11:09<justinh>reynaldo: could also be listarea - or if you don't want to use mythui (technically if it's just for your client you don't need to) just use the same stuff as 'watch recodings' code does
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11:13<reynaldo>justinh: thanks
11:18<justinh>I think you kinda have a point about the settings screens though - after all it's why there was a google SoC project to try to tidy up & rearrange them. It'll be worth looking into that at some point in the future, if I ever get my c++ fu good enough
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11:21<justinh>right. time to have a nice long walk & go collect my car
11:23<reynaldo>justinh: did it got done ?
11:23<reynaldo>that SoC project I mean
11:24<reynaldo>btw, do you know if the guy who packages myth for debian/ubuntu is ever around here on IRC?
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11:45<gbee>reynaldo: superm1 & laga
11:47<reynaldo>gbee: thanks a lot
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12:28<jarle>I seem to have a problem related to this bug: Does this mean that a pre-compiled package made on a system with glx 1.4 would not work on a system with a glx version pre 1.4?
12:30<jarle>!seen laga
12:30<jarle>(why is this only working in #mythtv-users ? :)
12:36<superm1>reynaldo, did you have some issues?
12:36<superm1>with our builds?
12:38<jarle>superm1: I do actually.... it seems to maybe be related to
12:39<jarle>superm1: I get: /usr/bin/mythfrontend.real: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/ undefined symbol: glXGetProcAddress
12:39<superm1>jarle, we didn't change anything particularly in the build itself
12:39<jarle>superm1: Thats running latest svn build..
12:39<superm1>build dependencies however could have changed if there were any updates to X
12:40<superm1>but looking at that, that's 4 months old
12:41<jarle>superm1: If I understand the error correctly it is looking for glXGetProcAddress instead of glXGetProcAddressARB as it probably should (as I'm running a legacy nvidia driver on this frontend)
12:41<superm1>jarle, come join us in #ubuntu-mythtv and we can sort this out in there okay, this isn't the proper area
12:41<jarle>superm1: on my way :)
12:50<reynaldo>superm1: not at all, I'd like to ask you how to proceed at deb packaging a single plugin or a few
12:50<superm1>reynaldo, come join in #ubuntu-mythtv-dev
12:50<superm1>we can discuss there
12:55<okolsi>hmm... reg #4536, the coloring works now but playbackbox still cannot recover from the problem
12:55<okolsi>frontend log shows that zero byte recording error..
12:56<okolsi>I'm sure I get bad karma if I still re-open the ticket ;)
13:01<justinh>reynaldo: none of the SoC projects got finished. well, I think we could maybe say one was finished eventually .. the mythweather revamp
13:02<reynaldo>justinh: a pity, I was a soccer myseld
13:02<reynaldo>I worked on a QCELP decoder for FFmpeg, but i had code there and on MPlayer already
13:02<reynaldo>so it wasnt really that hard
13:02<justinh>their loss, and ours :( nothing stopping anybody taking them up again if they really wanted to though
13:03<reynaldo>allthought it is my first decoder so it was quite an adventure
13:03<justinh>after today I can relate to the settings thing being much harder than it sounded
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13:16<gbee>justinh: taking about language selection got me thinking, how about this instead of what we have now?
13:16<justinh>I could live with that
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13:16<gbee>using mythui with the grid list layout of course
13:17<justinh>gbee: hate to say this but I had to give up on mythappearance today. I just can't get my head around the setup menu code
13:18<justinh>I had another crack at it, but I'm plainly missing the ability to properly follow what other code which uses setup menu buttons is doing
13:19<gbee>I'll take a look if I get the time, though I'm not entirely sure where I'd stick it in the order of things, maybe it deserves it's own menu entry under Setup somewhere
13:19<justinh>and more importantly, not able to tell how it's defined in the header
13:19<justinh>I have the feeling that if I'd got it to work at all it'd have been a fluke & would've needed cleaning up big style
13:20<justinh>that said, I've only given up on it today. i'll get some printouts & sit down with a cuppa & have a good read & make notes
13:21<justinh>I hate giving up, and if this beats me what chance do I stand doing all the other cool stuff I wanna do? ;)
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13:22<gbee>justinh: there was stuff that beat me a year ago, which only now I feel capable of doing, but that didn't stop me doing plenty of other good stuff in the meantime
13:22<gbee>just took me time to become comfortable with mythtv's code
13:23<justinh>it's not what I'd have called a big job til I saw the code properly. I think my method was ok, just classifying it properly in the header was what tripped me up
13:25<justinh>can't think of any other 'easy-ish' jobs I had on my list right now. maybe that conflict textarea. should be a doddle that one
13:25<gbee>need to sort out that mythui popup theme
13:26<gbee>maybe I'll do that tonight, take a break from what I've been doing every other night
13:26<justinh>I have a couple of themes I'm promised to try to get out in time for 0.21 for somebody
13:26<gbee>just have to decide what style we're going to settle on for the default images
13:27<justinh>maybe just plain with rounded corners, translucent dark. no shiny shiny
13:28<Anduin>So... code freeze is on the 1st?
13:28<laga>of february?
13:28<justinh>is it?
13:28<gbee>guess so, but that would be a shame as I wanted to get the xmltv api config stuff done for 0.21, I just got distracted with mythui :(
13:28<Anduin>That was one of the targets put out there, with Feb being only fixing bugs
13:30<gbee>still think 1st Feb is a good target for a feature freeze, mid-Feb for a possible RC release and end of Feb for the full release
13:31<justinh>better get my arse in gear & decide which themes go byebyes & tart up the remainder to work with trunk
13:31<justinh>(of mine, I mean)
13:31<gbee>I'd like more time, but I've been advocating setting a date and then sticking to it for months, so I'd be a hypocrite if I requested a delay
13:32<Anduin>I'd prefer Jan 4th as the freeze (giving the weekend), if it is the 1st I'll just expand what a bug fix is.
13:32<gbee>works for me
13:32<gbee>assuming Jan=Feb
13:33<justinh>would a plugin still needing to be integrated be called a bug or a feature? ;)
13:33<Anduin>Yeah, soon is needed, sticking with Marchish for release is good.
13:33<Anduin>err, yes Feb (just typed the month name from the calendar)
13:34<superm1>good that will make for less exceptions that need to be filed with us
13:34<superm1>and easier to get 0.21 in hardy
13:34<gbee>Anduin: any features we don't get into 0.21 just enhances the case for us setting the 0.22 date earlier
13:34<justinh>superm1: how many downloads of blootube do you get? the 4:3 one?
13:34<superm1>justinh, let me see if hardy stats have been built for that stuff yet
13:34<justinh>infact any 4:3 ones
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13:35<Anduin>gbee: Yeah, I'm having a very narrow definition of feature, I just need to close out the MythVideo tickets I have tagged for 0.21, nothing really major, just need several hours in a row to get it done.
13:35<justinh>superm1: any stats.. current too preferably. planning on dropping my own 4:3 ones but don't wanna be _too_ unpopular
13:36<superm1>justinh, no popularity contest data on stuff in a testing release from what i can see
13:36<superm1>so sorry can't really tell you
13:36<justinh>not even current ones? call me disappointed ;)
13:36<superm1>well they aren't in gutsy
13:36<superm1>so i cant tell you about gutsy stats :)
13:37<justinh>hahaha fair enough :)
13:37<justinh>I'll go by webpage stats then. bye bye projectgrayhem
13:39<reynaldo>gbee: any idea on how to put a little image on top of a button ?
13:39<gbee>PG-wide or just PG?
13:39<reynaldo>is that done just setting the propers draworders
13:40<justinh>gbee: PG.
13:40<gbee>reynaldo: with libmyth, use draworders
13:40<justinh>damn I was planning to revamp some default theme images too. doesn't leave much time
13:40<gbee>or put the image in as part of the button background, assuming that the image won't ever change
13:41<justinh>see what the weekend brings, wifey's away so it'll be compute compute compute :)
13:41<gbee>in mythui it's a lot easier
13:41<reynaldo>gbee: the image do changes, each time you press the button the lang and his associated flag changes, both for the button 'label' so to speak
13:41<reynaldo>that way i dont fill the screen with lang buttons
13:41<gbee>justinh: you've got a month, which I appreciate isn't _that_ long
13:41<reynaldo>and its more scalable, you could end up having quite some supported langs
13:42<gbee>reynaldo: use a seperate image on top of the button then
13:42<reynaldo>gbee: yup, I'm loking for the correct xml element
13:42<justinh>dunno what's wrong with having a button which takes you to a separate page with all the langs on but hey it's not my funeral
13:42<reynaldo>finding out its methods is wasy with the doxygen docs
13:43<reynaldo>justinh: i like this method better
13:43<justinh>heh fairy nuff :)
13:43<justinh>oh man. been a fscking expensive day off today. just shy of £500
13:44<justinh>damn car tax. damn car infact
13:44<reynaldo>he, I dont drive a car
13:44<reynaldo>saves me from that kind of suffering
13:44*gbee either, too damn expensive
13:44<justinh>service, mot, 2 new tyres, fuel filter.. then £1180 road fund duty oof
13:44<justinh>er £180
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13:45<justinh>it's cheaper than travelling by train to work, or working locally
13:45<justinh>though sometimes I really do wish I only worked ina supermarket
13:45<MrGandalf>Can anyone confiirm "Jump to Program" from within LiveTV is broken in trunk?
13:45<reynaldo>justinh: but you wanting a new window instead of a button with switching labels makes me realize you might even be considering changing the car for a truck ;)
13:45<justinh>reynaldo: just thinking the user might tire of pressing the button ;)
13:46<justinh>or overshoot by pressing too many times if they're in a hurry
13:47<reynaldo>all valid points I'm afraid
13:47<reynaldo>what can I say
13:47<gbee>yeah, depends on circumstances - trains can be expensive too, though even when I was travelling to uni by train it was still cheaper than running a car (factoring in cost of purchase, maintainance, tax, fuel, insurance, parking and fines etc)
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13:48<justinh>reynaldo: thinking about work reminded me how much I hate the new LCD monitors we have. their 'source' button goes between 13 inputs & it's easy to land on the wrong one
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13:51<reynaldo>justinh: cheaper monitors have less possible input sources :-)
13:52<reynaldo>so, back to the lang stuff, main_settings.xml show 18 translated langs
13:53<reynaldo>is that right?
13:53<reynaldo>i mean, do myth have that many translations ?
13:53<superm1>gbee, with an impending upcoming freeze, sooner rather than later could you change the library versions from the current 0.20 that they're getting during builds to 0.21? A new package will have to make it through for reflecting the change (eg ./usr/lib/ should be getting ./usr/lib/
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14:08<gbee>superm1: cardoe has already asked, not sure what the history is there, we usually wait until after the feature freeze I think, but if no-one objects I can do it now
14:09<gbee>Chutt__: any reason not to increment it from 0.20 to 0.21 now?
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14:19<jams>reynaldo- mind sharing who your client is that requested the plugins ?
14:20<Cardoe>superm1: can I take a peek at the build options you're passing to the 0.21 stuff?
14:25<reynaldo>jams: I dont know if I have permission to do that right now, will ask.
14:25<reynaldo>its ratter my employer than my client though, badly choosen word
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14:30<superm1>Cardoe, of course
14:30<superm1>let me point you at the bzr branch
14:31<reynaldo>humm, "Language" on mythconverge holds the current lang, how about timezone info, where is it stored? maybe it isn't stored at all?
14:32<GreyFoxx>Not at all
14:32<GreyFoxx>we assuming the local system timezone is currectly set
14:33<superm1>Cardoe, ^
14:33<reynaldo>GreyFoxx: thanks
14:33<superm1>Cardoe, i'm not too sure on what we're going to pass for cpu/tune/arch options still
14:34<Cardoe>aren't you guys going to gcc 4.3
14:34<Cardoe>well never mind.. that won't work for you
14:34<superm1>4.2.3 is the release i'm seeing us on right now
14:36<Cardoe>One of the flags I was wondering about was --enable-gpl
14:36<Cardoe>Have to see if enabling that by default helps or hurts
14:36<superm1>isn't it disabled?
14:36<superm1>via a BLOCK_QUOTE thing in configure?
14:36<superm1>along with a whole lot of other ffmpeg stuff that I saw yesterday
14:37<Cardoe>it defaults to disabled but I thought it controlled something
14:37<Cardoe>that whole config script is a mess
14:38<superm1>i was wondering why a whole lot of that new stuff with the new ffmpeg checkout was disabled
14:38<superm1>disabled from modification that is
14:40<superm1>Cardoe, are you adjusting it in your builds to re-enable the possibility of modifying that stuff?
14:42<superm1>na nothing special it looks like
14:42<superm1>but i'm imaging your --enable-gpl is ignored then
14:43<Cardoe>does the arts stuff actually work?
14:43<Cardoe>we started disabling the arts stuff cause it was busted.
14:43<laga>wiser words have never been spoken (referring to artsd itself)
14:44<superm1>i stray far far away from artsd so couldn't tell you
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15:23<fiXXXerMet>Where can I find a storage calculator for high def programmin?
15:24<fiXXXerMet>Going to be going with FIoS for TV.
15:24<laga>in the users channel
15:24<superm1>fiXXXerMet, wrong channel, see /t
15:24<fiXXXerMet>I miss that every time.
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15:38<gbee> << definately going to implement this idea
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15:39<GreyFoxx>Part of the initial setup screen? I think that's an excellent idea and looks nice :)
15:40<GreyFoxx>Do we actually have a setup ioption somewhere to repick the language? I don't reemmeber
15:41<gbee>GreyFoxx: yeah, for some reason it's under appearance
15:41<laga>gbee: very nice.
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15:43<gbee>I've wanted to break out all the locale settings into their own space and expand it to allow your locale to govern a whole range of settings, which would make it faster to install/setup mythtv by giving users the approriate settings for their location
15:44<blaform>hey does anyone know if mythtv can auto unrar files like xbmc?
15:44<gbee>e.g. In the UK that would mean Interactive TV enabled by default, tv_grab_uk_rt the default grabber etc
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15:44<justinh>blaform: wrong channel. and no, it can't
15:44<blaform>justinh: thx
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15:45<justinh>damn w4r3z people
15:45<gbee>why not ask the torrent devs to automatically uncompress stuff after it's downloaded?
15:46<justinh>why bother even raring an already highly compressed file? defies explanation
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15:49<gbee>think it has something to do with hiding the contents of the file from investigators/ISPs who are monitor traffic across the networks - though I guess the filename gives that away in most cases
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15:49<justinh>I thought encrippling naughty traffic was the order of the day, but hey ho
15:50<laga>gbee: i think they want to get around file size limits
15:50<laga>the archives are split into 15M files
15:50<gbee>ahh, yeah, that's a far better explanation
15:51<justinh>wellit wasn't to save space :)
15:51<gbee>in which case, isn't it still better to unrar/join those files after downloading? I mean who is too lazy to type unrar -e file.rar
15:52<stuarta>the same people who want support for it in the first place
15:52<laga>gbee: well, the warez d00dz enjoy racing, eg who'S the first one to have a release on the ftpds
15:52<laga>maybe they also do that for watching
15:52<justinh>the mind boggles, it really does </ivory tower mode>
15:54*stuarta extends the big middle finger towards the w4r3z ppl
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16:00<janneg>gah, openwrt on my wrt54g is somehow broken. ip forwarding or NAT doesn't work. even after a clean reinstall
16:01<laga>"clean"? unless you're running kamikaze, there might be broken nvram settings
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16:03<janneg>laga: I'm runnin kamikaze
16:06<sphery>reynaldo: Why not a frontend setting to "Always ask for language on startup" and a button to exit mythfrontend? IMHO, an "Exit now" button would be far more useful to 99% of users than a "Change language" button, and it allows you to reuse the ask-for-language-on-first-startup code.
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16:07<sphery>reynaldo: Also, if you change the timezone on the frontend and not on the backend, you will almost definitely have playback problems. Even changing on both may cause issues with listings and/or finding recordings.
16:08<gbee>sphery: he's not doing it for mythtv, but for a seperate plugin which I gather is going to be run in some sort of kiosk type situation e.g. you don't want to turn it on/off every time you need to change the language
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16:10<sphery>Oh. I thought he said he wanted his code to be accepted upstream to make it easier for his client.
16:10<sphery>Though really, "turning off mythfrontend" should take very little time.
16:10<gbee>he did, but it looks like his client/employers needs aren't really compatible with that
16:11<sphery>(not turn off the entire computer--just restart mythfrontend)
16:12<jams>sphery- his client/employers specificly asked for plugins. He was unable to convince them otherwise.
16:14<justinh>woo nasty. recordings that were there last night now filesize 'B' :(
16:15<justinh>and some made tonight, also not there. fwiw I think I'm gonna update to trunk at the weekend
16:16<justinh>1st time it's done a 'sky plus' in a very long time though :)
16:16<justinh>backend hadn't fallen over, just my frontend said no recordings available. mysqlcheck deemed all ok too. all files were there.. weird
16:17<justinh>no point trying to debug it. way too old to be of concern now
16:18<laga>i need to update, too. got some weird issues with my pre-multirec build were old recordings wouldn't play because the file name couldn't be looked up by the backend. although the database and the files seemed ok
16:18<justinh>wtf? recordings just vanished again
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16:19<sphery>someone crack your system, again?
16:20<laga>sphery: now stop deleting his stuff, will ya.
16:20<sphery>me != that someone
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16:21<justinh>wonder if the dev box's autodiscover hootin' tootin' is causing mayhem
16:22<justinh>only times I've ever had trouble is when I have the trunk box on the same net
16:22<justinh>hope it's coincidence
16:23<stuarta>cause and effect more likely
16:24<justinh>soaps scheduled to record repeats tomorrow. ass saved, etc
16:25<justinh>keep telling her if we had a shop bought dvr we'd not have a hope in hell of ever being satisfied. remains to be convinced
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16:43<gbee> justinh: we need to start thinking about including an "escape/exit" button on every screen as part of mythui, or at least adding the backend capability for touchscreen use
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16:45<gbee>thought about that, and sure it would work, might even be acceptable for most people, just doesn't seem that intuitive for first time users (house guests etc)
16:46<gbee>doesn't have to be a button included in every theme, but looking for a uitype named "escapebutton" when we create mythscreentype and only using it if it exists gives us choices down the road
16:47<gbee>it's something to discuss anyway
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16:53<sphery>gbee: possible to have the escape button in an optionally-displayed container/context/whatever the appropriate theme term is?
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16:54<gbee>sure, it could be displayed only if you've enabled the "touchscreen navigation" setting or whatever
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16:56<gbee>that's one of the details that can be discussed though, I'm just looking to establish some basic guidance on what we should be doing with mythui from the beginning
16:57<gbee>mythui offers proper mouse support, so it seems logical to implement that properly and with maximum benefits from day one
16:58<jams>gbee- if i wanted to add a popup in the main menu, is libmythui/mythmainwindow.cpp the correct place for such a thing?
16:58<gbee>for me, mouse support means touchscreens and touchscreen navigation would seem to require some way to exit from pages, therefore we need exit buttons
16:59<gbee>jams: use mythdialogbox and place it in myththemedmenu.cpp
16:59<gbee>well ... actually, it may depend
16:59<Chutt>or just a defined 'right->left == back' gesture
17:01<gbee>Chutt: yeah, like I said, gestures are an option, I just didn't see them being the right option for everyone - but that is why I want to discuss it
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17:09<jams>may depend on what?
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17:13<gbee>jams: nothing, was just trying to decide if myththemedmenu was the best place, but it is IMHO
17:13<jams>heh ok
17:14<gbee>if the popup is only to appear in the menus, then that's where you want it
17:14<jams>now to sort through it all
17:14<jams>yes i only want it shown on the menu
17:15<gbee>jams: should be reasonably simple, look at mythappearance for an implementation of mythdialogbox and then connect it to a keypress in MythThemedMenu::keyHandler
17:17<gbee>you'll need to add a customevent handler to MythThemedMenu, just like the one in MythAppearance, but you can get 90% of the way there just by copy/paste
17:17<jams>was hoping to avoid a custom handler
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17:21<gbee>jams: it's nothing really and it's required to get the results from the popup menu
17:21<gbee>just copy/paste what's at the end of mythappearance and change the details
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17:23<gbee>I'd offer to write the patch for you, but my copy of myththemedmenu has been changed beyond recognition and diffing/reverting etc is a hassle
17:23<jams>i see, was looking at pre mythui for mythappearance
17:24<gbee>even so, if you want I'm still happy to do it
17:25<jams>think i'm ok for now. Who knows i might even have a patch for you =)
17:29<jams>would trigger the menu via keyHandler ?
17:29<jams>cool think i got everything then
17:30<jams>may not be useful to others, but i'm adding a "turn off" button + a few others to the menu.
17:30<gbee>trying to think of a clever way of allowing MythListButton to accept focus yet still return the consituent MythUIButton instead when we call GetChildAt()
17:31<gbee>we need it to accept focus for keyboard navigation, but for mouse support it's a lot easier if we get the actual button that's been pressed and not the list itself
17:31<jams>yeah i'm aware of the shutdown buttons when you try to exit myth, but I have myth configured to not allow an exit.
17:33<gbee>jams: I'm not arguing, sounds like a good idea to me - I don't want 'Escape' to leave the frontend, but using the existing Menu button on the remote to call up some shutdown/restart options sounds good to me
17:34<gbee>so good, that I said so twice ;)
17:44*gbee makes GetChildAt() virtual, the simplest solution is usually the last one you think of
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17:47<justinh>re a 'back' button - just a simple left arrow icon would suffice. none too intrusive.. if you need one at all. as chutt said gestures would be more elegant. just my 2p worth
17:47<justinh>anyway.. bedtime. walked miles today
17:47<justinh>g'night all
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18:01<gbee>justinh: the gesture is/will be implemented, whatever button is available would be in addition to that and entirely optional for themers to implement
18:05<gbee>that's my current line of thinking anyway
18:09<reynaldo>sphery, gbee, justinh thanks for the help
18:09<reynaldo>yes I'd like the code to get eventually to upstream
18:09<reynaldo>but i'm afraid what they want isnt necesarily what you want
18:09<reynaldo>that been said, I'm sure something could be gived back
18:09<reynaldo>maybe an updated plugin howto documentation
18:10<reynaldo>or something on the changelang direction
18:10<reynaldo>sphery: I think I will do the tz change and see what happens
18:11<reynaldo>can a backend and one of its frontends be in different timezones anyway ?
18:12<reynaldo>right now I'm having unicode displaying problems, as in, they get missdisplayed
18:12<reynaldo>should be the font
18:12<reynaldo>QT/Myth should be able to do unicode just fine, for what I gather
18:13<gbee>internally everything is in unicode, we store it as UTF8 in the database though
18:14<reynaldo>im getting missdisplayed accented chars and others like Ç
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18:14<gbee>it's converted back to unicode when it's read from the database
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18:14<sphery>Myth pretty much makes the assumption that the backend and frontend are in the same timezone. Check the archives for lots of messages about problems people have encountered when timezones were set incorrectly on one or more systems.
18:15<reynaldo>gbee: I'm not getting them from the database, these are harcoded UTF8 strings in the .cpp file
18:15<reynaldo>sphery: he, I found myself something to fix then :|
18:15<gbee>reynaldo: try using fromUTF8() - See QString in the QT docs
18:16<gbee>that will convert UTF8() strings to unicode
18:18*sphery thinks that making Myth timezone independent would take a lot of time.
18:20<reynaldo>sphery: he, it might
18:20<reynaldo>gbee: thanks
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18:28<reynaldo>gbee: worked like a charm
18:28<reynaldo>thanks a lot
18:29<reynaldo>now i just need to find the correct flag for the languages, this will end up looking quite nice :-)
18:29<reynaldo>oh, not to mention I need the lang names to associate with the lang codes
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18:33<TUplink>how can i make myth automatcly open on the tv i guess the X Scree 1
18:33<TUplink>sorry wrong chan
18:34<gbee>although two of the codes used in mythtv are wrong -
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18:52<superm1>does mythextras/mythflash have to come in as its own package for mythweb to work with it?
18:52<xris>superm1: mythweb has the compiled player built in
18:52<superm1>xris, okay so i won't have to bother packaging anything extra for it then right?
18:52<superm1>are there any additional dependencies that I should be adding to mythweb for it to be functional?
18:52<xris>I just wanted caskater4 to get the code into svn so other people could see it pre-compiled
18:53<xris>flv player is disabled by default in .21, anyway...
18:53<xris>but ffmpeg + mp3 support is usually neccssary
18:53<superm1>ah i can see there being trouble there with that
18:53<xris>other than that, mythweb's just a web app.. no real deps other than perl/php
18:54<superm1>well i was meaning for transcoding when i said dependencies, which as you said ffmpeg + mp3
18:57<gbee> which is why it's disabled for 0.21 (unfortunately)
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19:15<xris>gbee: well, it's easy enough to turn on.. just disabled by default
19:15<sphery>easy enough to turn on, but extremely hard to convince users not to complain when it doesn't work...
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19:18<gbee>xris: yeah I know, the 'unfortunately' because the mythtranscode changes required to make it work properly haven't been done yet, so it's not going to make 0.21 in it's finished form
19:19<gbee>would have been the killer feature of mythweb for 0.21, so it's just a shame that it's not ready :)
19:20<gbee>even if it does work if you don't mind runaway ffmpeg processes
19:20<xris>I want to see full flv playback in mythweb.. live tv, etc.
19:35<reynaldo>gbee: thanks for the list, do you know the url of some similar one with the 'name' column in its own native lang ?
19:36<reynaldo>ie: ES = Español EN = English FR=FranÇaise
19:36<reynaldo>and so on
19:37<gbee>4th 'column'
19:37<gbee>actually, it's the 5th
19:38<gbee>hmm, maybe not, those look like French
19:38<gbee>yeah, they are ... sorry that's no good
19:39<reynaldo>my english skills are proving unsucesfull at trying to find such a table
19:40<reynaldo>amazing, you'd have tits I'd marry you :-)
19:40<reynaldo>thanks a lot
19:47<Chutt>xris, is there any way to make mythweb _not_ remember where it was, without going and finding a cookie + deleting it?
19:47<xris>not sure what you mean
19:47<Chutt>like if i go to the /tv/ dir, it remembers the last section i was in on the previous visit
19:48<Chutt>ie, right now it's trying to load the recorded programs list
19:48<xris>really? didn't know that. lol...
19:48<xris>would probably have to kill the code that checks
19:48<Chutt>ah well, i'll just bookmark /tv/listings/ instead
19:49<Chutt>it's just a little confusing :p
19:52<kormoc>I don't have that behaviour in mine
19:53<kormoc>oh wait, there it goes
20:09<reynaldo>any way to make a given mythconverge setting to be applied to the current session, sort of a 'reload config' action?
20:11<sphery>change the setting and issue a ClearCache() (name might be off). Also, mythbackend --clearcache
20:15<reynaldo>sphery: thanks a lot.
20:15<sphery>For doing the actual backup of the mythconverg database before schema updates, what would be the best approach? Execute mysqldump? Implement a "poor-man's" mysqldump in Myth code? (BTW, I have a handle on the locking issues, thanks to Captain_Murdoch.)
20:16<sphery>BACKUP TABLE is deprecated (and simply copies the binary files, anyway). mysqlhotcopy copies the binary files. IMHO, the backup should be a "portable" (across MySQL versions/installs) SQL file.
20:22<GreyFoxx>Maybe check out the Mysql Load Data File syntax?
20:24<GreyFoxx>I thought there was another to output a table./content to it as well
20:24<reynaldo>sphery: whats the point of SetSetting(key, value) if you need to call ClearSettingsCache ?
20:25<reynaldo>I mean, ClearSettingsCache(key, value)
20:25<sphery>The SELECT ... INTO OUTFILE would have the MySQL server write out the file, so it would be written with the perms/ownership of the user running mysqld.
20:25<reynaldo>sounds redundant, maybe I'm just missing something?
20:26<reynaldo>also, it doesn't work :D, setting not only doesn't get applied but is overwritted next time I fire up mythfrontend
20:30<sphery>reynaldo: originally, there was no settings cache, so any updated setting was applied immediately. Someone (don't remember who) implemented a settings cache to speed up myth. Rather than make SetSetting() clear the cache every time, ClearSettingsCache() is called separately to allow you to modify multiple settings at once more efficiently or to modify settings for which the settings cache doesn't need to be reloaded.
20:31<GreyFoxx>Captain_Murdoch added it
20:31<jams>sphery- something to keep in mind loadfile requires an extra bit of setup for mysql.
20:31<GreyFoxx>grant file for the user?
20:31<jams>but it is very useful
20:31<jams>that and load-infile needs to be specified in my.cnf
20:32<GreyFoxx>ahhh ok
20:32<GreyFoxx>I've only rarely used it
20:32<GreyFoxx>musta forgot that bit
20:32<jams>didn't need that in 4 but 5 needs it because it was considered a security hole
20:33<jams>I use it for my template/profile stuff
20:34<sphery>reynaldo: Hmmm. it looks like SetSetting() does call ClearSettingsCache(). Don't know why it's not working for you. Perhaps a global versus host-based setting thing?
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20:35<sphery>jams: Yeah, I figure our best bet is to write out the file as the user running mythtv so perms/ownership is OK and so there's no mysql config requirement (a backup functionality that always fails is worse than just saying there is no backup functionality :).
20:36<jams>good idea, just as long we make it known that extra flag might be needed.
20:36<reynaldo_>sorry, I got disconnected just after asking my question
20:37<reynaldo_>did I miss any answer ?
20:37<sphery>The idea is to make sure that flag isn't needed--i.e. figure out a way to do it from Myth, not from the MySQL server.
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20:37<sphery>reynaldo: Hmmm. it looks like SetSetting() does call ClearSettingsCache(). Don't know why it's not working for you. Perhaps a global versus host-based setting thing?
20:37<sphery>that didn't work
20:37<sphery>reynaldo_: did you get ^^^^
20:38<reynaldo_>yup, I was reading
20:38<jams>reynaldo_- i found that gContext->ActivateSettingsCache(false) needed to be called first before clearing the cache. After the cache is cleared renable the cache.
20:38<jams>i don't know if it's right but it worked for me
20:38<reynaldo_>that's interesting
20:38<reynaldo_>will try
20:38<sphery>I suggest looking at other code that changes settings.
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20:39<reynaldo_>Im sick of looking at other's C++ code, I have a hugo personality crisis now, almost psicophatic, I'm starting to talk to my Marshal, as Mr. Brooks
20:46<sphery>Hmmm. Seems mysqldump outputs INSERT INTO statements where the line length is up to 1MB
20:46<reynaldo_>jams: if i call gContext->ActivateSettingsCache(false) before the SetSetting and gContext->ActivateSettingsCache(true) after it the setting doesn't even get applied
20:51<jams>try SetSetting, turn of cache, clear cache,activate cache
20:53<reynaldo_>wait, says i should be using SaveSetting
20:56<jams>heh yeah if you want to save it to the database. wasn't thinking straight i guess
20:56<reynaldo_>yup, that works
20:56<reynaldo_>only problem is .. new setting doesn't seem to get applied till next program execution
20:57<sphery>I thought that's what you were using to change it. SaveSettingOnHost() calls ClearSettingsCache() (and SaveSetting() calls SaveSettingOnHost()), so it should work.
20:59<sphery>There are definitely a lot of examples of SaveSetting being used in the code.
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21:00<reynaldo_>Im using Save Setting and the new lang setting gets applied at next propgram execution
21:00<reynaldo_>thats perfectly ok
21:00<reynaldo_>but I'm missing te new setting to be re-loaded/re-readed in the same session
21:00<reynaldo_>without having to restart mythfrontend
21:01<reynaldo_>I was using SetSetting btw
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21:04<jams>reynaldo- try calling reloadTheme() as it reloads the language settings
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21:46<reynaldo>Ok, lang set problem solved, now into the real deal
21:46<reynaldo>is EIT data TZ dependant? ie, would two guys with different timezones get different data for the same channel ?
21:47<reynaldo>or is this data just channel dependant ?
21:50<sphery>listings are stored in local time, so...
21:50<sphery>remember my "much work" comment?
21:51<reynaldo>local to who? the broadcaster or the given mythtv instance ?
21:51<reynaldo>sphery: kinda
21:51<jams>sphery- so EIT contains timezone info, or is given in UTC ?
21:52<jams>by timezone info I mean the offset to UTC
21:53<reynaldo>sphery: I didn't quite get the meaning of that 'much work' comment
21:53<reynaldo>should sharpen my english for sarcasm I guess
21:53<sphery>stored using the system's local time, so using the current timezone set for the system
21:54<reynaldo>ok, and its this data stored in periodic burst ?
21:55<sphery>For EIT, yes, it's updated periodically, but I don't know anything of EIT (as it's not very useful here).
21:56<reynaldo>ok, one last one
21:56<reynaldo>do you know if there is a programatic way to refetch/update the EIT data?
21:56<reynaldo>as I'm modifiying the client's timezone
21:57<reynaldo>I guess EIT data will be all fskd up after the change
21:57<reynaldo>oh, wait .. is this data meant to be collected by the backend ?
21:57<reynaldo>if so .. I'm close to really-fskd-up :D
21:58<jams>yes it's collected by the backend
21:58<reynaldo>unless I change both, now I remember your comment sphery
21:58<reynaldo>I guess thats what's needed
21:58<sphery>Yes, it's collected by the backend. I don't know how (or if it's possible) to force a refresh--as I think it just does it "all the time".
21:59<reynaldo>I will give the idea pillow fight
21:59<sphery>stuarta is one of the EIT experts
22:00<sphery>GreyFoxx: I finally figured out the FILE grant, reset my root password so I could grant it, and did a SELECT ... INTO OUTFILE. Seems it's just a tab-delimited text file.
22:02<sphery>Doing backups like that would require one file per table (or some special mechanism for importing).
22:02<sphery>I'm leaning back toward the SQL-based INSERT statements.
22:06<sphery>If performance isn't too bad, I think I'll just do a loop over all tables and "SHOW CREATE TABLE ..." and "SELECT *" (converted to "INSERT INTO") to create my own mythsqldump ;) function. Though it will take longer to restore, it will be much more user-friendly for a restore, and chances are users who are in need of the backup won't be concerned about MySQL taking an hour or two (unattended) to restore the DB and get them back to a ...
22:06<sphery>... working state.
22:07<kormoc>sphery, you can also do stuff like turning off indexes for the inserts and thus only one index build at the end
22:07<sphery>Yeah. I'll leave that for the advanced MySQL users, since Myth won't be doing the restores. :)
22:08<sphery>You wouldn't happen to have any better ideas for creating the actual backup, would you? (I happen to know your MySQL knowledge is >> mine.)
22:08<kormoc>the other option is to shell out to mysql dump, given you know the user/pass/host/dbname
22:10<sphery>Yeah. That's the other option I'm considering.
22:10<sphery>I'll probably test both to compare performance.
22:12<sphery>If the "do-it-myself" approach isn't significantly worse, I may go with that just to keep the user/pass/... headaches out of it.
22:12<kormoc>One thing to consider is with all these dump methods, you have the issue of referential data integrity. When you dump table y, table z gets updated to point at y, and y's record is missing
22:12<kormoc>It shouldn't be too bad.
22:13<sphery>I thought that would only be an issue with foreign keys (and I didn't think MySQL supports them)?
22:13<sphery>i.e. for all MySQL knows they're just a bunch of independent tables.
22:13<kormoc>innodb sure does support foreign keys, but I mean just pointing
22:13<kormoc>they are
22:13<sphery>so you're talking more about locking the tables to get consistent data?
22:14<kormoc>write-locks are the only way, but for long dumps, they don't really work too well
22:14<kormoc>but yeah
22:14<kormoc>it's just something to keep in mind. I don't really know of any (sane) ways to fix it
22:15<sphery>I was planning on piggy-backing on Captain_Murdoch's code he uses to "lock" the DB during DB schema upgrades.
22:15<kormoc>other then shutting down myself and copying the raw db files or setting up replication to a dumpable slave
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22:15<sphery>Basically, it should keep all backends and clients from touching the DB while I'm backing it up.
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22:15<sphery>(since, initially, the backup will be performed only on startup when a DB update is occurring, locking for a "long" time shouldn't be an issue)
22:16<kormoc>sphery, it takes my box around 1:25 to do a mysqldump, is it okay to lock for that long?
22:16*Snow-Man is curious what ya'll are talking about. :)
22:16<sphery>you mean 1 minute 25 seconds?
22:16<kormoc>sphery, aye
22:17<sphery>I figure that's fine. There won't be any recordings occurring because the system is just being brought up.
22:17<Snow-Man>Why would you need anything more than a read lock for a backup..?
22:17<sphery>and upgraded to the next DB schema version.
22:17<Snow-Man>And real databases have this neat feature called 'PITR'.. I think it came around in the '90s.
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22:17<Snow-Man>ah, doing a DB schema revision is a bit more challenging.
22:18<Snow-Man>Is there no update script to move from one schema to the other in the database?
22:18<Snow-Man>dumping it all out and then reimporting doesn't seem terribly.. efficient.
22:18<sphery>Eventually, I'll modify the housekeeper to allow checking whether anyone is watching TV/recordings and how much leadtime we have before any recordings and, if sufficient time exists, do an automatic backup.
22:18<kormoc>sphery, fair 'nuff
22:18*kormoc nods
22:19<sphery>But I at least want the pre-schema-upgrade backup code available for consideration for inclusion in 0.21
22:19<Snow-Man>sphery: PITR is awesome for just handling your regular backup situations...
22:19<sphery>(so I'm keeping it simple to start with)
22:19*sphery guesses you don't mean the Pitr on Userfriendly...
22:19<Snow-Man>ah, no..
22:20<kormoc>Snow-Man, during real usage, a read lock for 1:30 while recording would kinda suck, given we're writing to the db quite often
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22:20<Snow-Man>aka log archiving
22:20<kormoc>Snow-Man, sadly myisam doesn't support it, does it?
22:20<Snow-Man>kormoc: Why would a read lock affect writing?
22:20<kormoc>a read lock only allows reading
22:20<Snow-Man>uh, no..
22:21<kormoc>"If a thread obtains a READ lock on a table, that thread (and all other threads) can only read from the table."
22:21<kormoc>welcome to the world of mysql :P
22:21<Snow-Man>kormoc: I doubt myisam supports it, but then, if you care about your data, mysql isn't the place to put it. :)
22:21<kormoc>innodb isn't that bad, and does support it (with innohotcopy/innohotbackup)
22:22<Snow-Man>kormoc: ah, yes, the wonderful table-locking of mysql. I thought innodb supported the things any decent DBA takes for granted?
22:22<Snow-Man>Doesn't it do MVCC and row-level locking?
22:22<kormoc>Aye, it does
22:22<Snow-Man>so, like, why not use that? :)
22:23<kormoc>all I know is myth uses myisam, I don't know who or why that decision was made :)
22:23<Snow-Man>(not that I'm really advocating mysql.. PostgreSQL would be a much better choice, but mythtv kinda blows in that regard)
22:23<Snow-Man>Is there actually stuff that depends on myisam? That'd be... creepy.
22:23<sphery>I know some users have switched theirs to InnoDB. Is there any code in Myth that would prevent using a different storage engine?
22:24<kormoc>mysql has some stuff (like fulltext indexes), but I don't know if myth uses them offhand
22:24<Snow-Man>It's bad enough that there's all that garbage mysql syntax used. :/
22:24<Snow-Man>oh, pah, there's no *good* reason for myth to be mysql-only, except that Chutt's lazy and doesn't want to put in the effort
22:25<sphery>I agree with the "choose one DBMS and stick with it" approach.
22:25<Snow-Man>And he always bitches about how myth shouldn't have a full-fledged DB behind it anyway.. :P
22:25<Snow-Man>sphery: For an infrastructure, perhaps, for an application, no.
22:25<kormoc>Snow-Man, well, everyone is lazy, given very few people bother to submit patches to fix it
22:25<Snow-Man>kormoc: Submitting patches isn't going to help if you don't get people to use proper syntax.
22:25<Captain_Murdoch>sphery: when you do the backups, you should store the start and stop times like mythfilldatabase runs, that way you know how long a backup takes and can account for that later when the housekeeper runs backups.
22:26<sphery>good plan...
22:26<Snow-Man>I actually started work on a PG-port a while ago, but there's nasty stuff scattered everywhere... :(
22:26<Snow-Man>Most of it w/o any particularly good reason.
22:26<Snow-Man>(to be written in mysql-ease as opposed to sql)
22:27<sphery>I was thinking of just choosing some arbitrarily huge lead time, but I can do a lead time based on previous run with engineering factor (x3 or more :).
22:27<kormoc>mythweb mostly runs on oracle and postgres :P
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22:27<Snow-Man>that's good to know. :)
22:27<kormoc>there was a few small areas that was broke, but nothing to major to fix
22:27<xris>kormoc: not surprising
22:27<Snow-Man>maybe I'll take another look at myth
22:27<Captain_Murdoch>sphery: mainly to account for situations where people's backups take a really long time for whatever reason.
22:28<Snow-Man>I really need to actually get it up and running again tho, heh.
22:28<kormoc>sphery, Captain_Murdoch, does the housekeeping thread take into account generic system usage/idleness?
22:28<xris>Snow-Man: mysql does a lot of things that pg/oracle can't... I run into mysqlisms all the time at my new job, which uses pg.
22:28<sphery>Yeah. I'm planning to start with a backup-on-db-upgrade-only version of the patch. The housekeeper/backup job stuff will come in later.
22:28<Captain_Murdoch>kormoc: no
22:28<kormoc>say if a lot of IO is going on, the backup is going to take a lot longer
22:28<Snow-Man>xris: erm, like what?
22:28<sphery>kormoc: after the patch I have in mind, it could be made to very easily...
22:29<Snow-Man>xris: Accept 'feb 31st' as a valid date?
22:29<xris>insert ... set
22:30<xris>can't remember any more off hand
22:30<xris>brain's too fried from 10 hours of perl code cleanup
22:30<Snow-Man>uh, insert into blah values (1,2,3),(4,5,6),(7,8,9); works just fine in PG.
22:30<Snow-Man>In fact, it imports mysqldump's just fine.
22:30<kormoc>it's just syntax wars really
22:30<Snow-Man>And I think generally does it faster than mysql, heh.
22:31<kormoc>Snow-Man, sadly, not on my box. Postgresql is noticeably slower then mysql's inno. It's not that bad, but it's there
22:31<Snow-Man>of course, w/ PG you can also join against VALUES.
22:31<kormoc>Snow-Man, example? that's one I'm not sure if I've seen
22:32<Snow-Man>kormoc: I'd be curious about how you have it configured then, since it's probably wrong. :)
22:32<sphery>If myth ever does get multiple-DBMS support, I don't think the devs will have time to write code with all the testing they'd be doing.
22:32<Snow-Man>kormoc: select * from table a join (values (true),(false)) on true;
22:32<Snow-Man>things like that
22:32<kormoc>Snow-Man, it's practically just defaults, as I only really toy with postgreasql and oracle.
22:32<Snow-Man>I actually find it really handy to have small short-cut mappings
22:33<Snow-Man>select a.person,b.column2 from tab1 a join (values (1,2),(2,2),(3,2)) on (a.x = b.column1);
22:34<Snow-Man>kormoc: see, values is a top-level command in PG. :)
22:34<Snow-Man>you can also just do:
22:34<Snow-Man>values (1,2),(3,4);
22:34<Snow-Man>And you'll get a 2-column, 2-row result as if you select'd something.
22:35<kormoc>yeah, can't have more then one column in mysql
22:35<Snow-Man>kormoc: The defaults for PG are menat for a 386.
22:35<Snow-Man>erm, meant
22:35<kormoc>erm, multiple rows
22:35<Snow-Man>I mean, seriously, they're absolutely terrible for any modern system.
22:35<kormoc>fair 'nuff
22:35<Snow-Man>It's been a definite point of frustration, heh.
22:35<kormoc>Yeah, I've run into issues where multiple rows would be handy
22:36<kormoc>I've sometimes been able to use UNION to do similar things :P
22:36<Snow-Man>It's not that hard to fix up the defaults, but there are people out there who seem to think they can do performance testing on a default install.
22:36<Snow-Man>kormoc: that's kind of fugly. :)
22:36<kormoc>ooh, it is, but it does work at times :P
22:37<kormoc>my oracle install is dog slow too, but I know I haven't tuned that anywhere close to a good speed
22:38<Snow-Man>pah, oracle requires an f'in degree to tune properly anyway
22:38<Snow-Man>I should know, I used to do it. :/
22:39<sphery>kormoc: Do you know if a mysqldump backup takes care of indices for you?
22:39<Snow-Man>kormoc: you should definitely bump up work_mem, maintenance_work_mem, and shared_buffers, at least.
22:39<Snow-Man>for PG that is
22:39<kormoc>sphery, with the correct flags, it will
22:39<sphery>i.e. if you restore from a mysqldump dump using "mysql ... < backup.sql", are indices re-created?
22:39<kormoc>Snow-Man, kk, I'll poke at those and see what happens
22:39<xris>sphery: depends on how you made the dump
22:39*sphery wonders if he's lost all his indices
22:40<Snow-Man>kormoc: also up the number of wal segments
22:40<kormoc>sphery, ahh, yeah, they're part of the create-table
22:40<Snow-Man>if you're doing alot of writing
22:40<Snow-Man>(it'll actually bitch in the logs if it's recycling wal files too quickly, heh)
22:40<sphery>ahh, yeah. I see them, now. I was looking for something separate.
22:40<Snow-Man>kormoc: You should also make sure you're doing vacuuming and whatnot properly if you're updating/changing your tables a bunch.
22:40<Snow-Man>And doing analyze's when things change in some significant way.
22:41<kormoc>Snow-Man, hrm, I'm not sure I have been
22:41<Snow-Man>kormoc: Any clue what version you're running?
22:41<Snow-Man>I'd recommend 8.2, of course, though 8.3 will probably be out within a week.
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22:42<kormoc>sphery, my current backup script is
22:42<Snow-Man>heh, yea, shared buffers defaults to like 8M, work_mem 1M, maint work_mem 16M
22:42<Snow-Man>these are stupidly small.
22:42<kormoc>Snow-Man, 8.0.15
22:42<Snow-Man>That's better than 7.4, but still
22:43<kormoc>sphery, of course some of the flags are unlikely needed (--all-databases --comments, etc)
22:43<sphery>Nice. You have your backup script in SVN with Trac...
22:43<Snow-Man>work_mem should really be at least 8M, and I'd usually recommend 16M or 32M unless you've got alot of stuff going on.
22:44<kormoc>sphery, heh, yeah, I'm slowly migrating all my misc stuff into SVN, it's quite useful
22:44<Snow-Man>maint work_mem bumped to at least 64M, unless you box only has 128M or something insane
22:44<Captain_Murdoch>sphery: also, when you name the backup file when you are doing it before a schema upgrade, you may want to put the current schema version in the filename.
22:44<sphery>I've been saying I was going to do that for almost 8 years, now. Hasn't been too high on the priority list.
22:44<Captain_Murdoch>or just put that in all filenames
22:44<kormoc>Snow-Man, 2 gigs of ram, currently around 1.1g free (cached/buffers)
22:44<Snow-Man>I usually bump shared_buffers to at least 80M, but you may have to adjust your max shm segments in sysctl.conf
22:45<Snow-Man>kormoc: Any particular reason to stick w/ 8.0?
22:45<Snow-Man>PG's generally very decent about upgrades and whatnot
22:45<kormoc>Snow-Man, other then it's what was marked stable, not at all. I can migrate to 8.1.11 to 8.2.6 with ease, but I might just wait for 8.3
22:46<Snow-Man>kormoc: yea, we're on 8.2.6 atm
22:46<sphery>Speaking of filenames, does someone who knows something about backup systems know what the OP was talking about in ? (Search for filename to find the location)
22:46<Snow-Man>8.3's got some nice stuff tho
22:47<Captain_Murdoch>sphery: you mean the yyyymmddhhmmss??
22:47<sphery>yeah--was he saying that should be the whole name, shouldn't be in the name, or ...
22:47<Snow-Man>gah, gzip --best?
22:48<kormoc>sphery, he likely was talking about rsnapshot (or similar)
22:48<Snow-Man>whoever it is definitely doesn't know diddly about backups. :)
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22:48<Snow-Man>seriously, best is like, ok, you might squeeze out another 4 bytes, if you work at it for 3 hours
22:48<kormoc>it takes snapshots via hardlinks so if the file stays the same, the second snapshot uses just whatever the hardlink uses
22:48<sphery>Better question, what would be the desired filename format for a backup?
22:48<xris>kormoc: I miss rsnapshot.
22:49<Snow-Man>bacula is pretty phatty, ime.
22:49<kormoc>but if the backups rotated, everytime the snapshot would run, it would see it a different file and thus use up more space
22:49<kormoc>xris, use it at home? :P
22:49<Snow-Man>We use it a fair bit at work.
22:49<Snow-Man>meh, hardlink trees are cute and all, but they can get to be a hassle..
22:50<Captain_Murdoch>sphery: he's saying name the filename with the timestamp of the backup. so if I do a backup right now, the file is called 20080130224835 I'm saying add the schema version to that at the end, so something like 20080130224935_1196.sql
22:50<Snow-Man>and they don't help if you actually *modify* the file, or if those sectors on the disk suddenly disappear
22:50<sphery>no words on it?
22:50<kormoc>it's handy to go back in time to pull things
22:50<xris>kormoc: well, yes. it's saved me countless times at home... just not organized enough yet at work to get it implemented.
22:50<sphery>mythconver_20080130224935_1196.sql , perhaps?
22:50<Captain_Murdoch>sphery: maybe the DB name first. mythconverg_2008
22:50<kormoc>Snow-Man, well, rsnapshots' first snapshot is always a full one, so you always do have a full backup
22:50<sphery>ok, I'll even spell it right, though
22:51<Snow-Man>kormoc: I like my backups on *tape*.. :)
22:51*kormoc laughs
22:51*Snow-Man put in an order for 2 more LTO-3 drives last week
22:52<kormoc>I'm more of another server on the network type of guy
22:52<Snow-Man>heh, disk-based backups can be nice sometimes, but then I'd want some kind of RAID on the disks too
22:53<Snow-Man>but they'd have to be cheap disks, etc
22:53<Snow-Man>All of our production stuff is running on RAID-10 arrays. :)
22:53<kormoc>Heh, I happen to have raid on all my home systems, so it's not that much of a problem
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22:53<Snow-Man>yeah, I do raid-1 at home generally.
22:53<Snow-Man>disks don't always match up tho, so I end up w/ stuff like:
22:54<Snow-Man>/dev/mapper/vg1-xtra 186G 8.5G 169G 5% /data3
22:54<Snow-Man>actually, that's funny
22:54<Snow-Man>I must have renamed it 'cause I'm pretty sure it used to be '/dev/mapper/vg1-junk' :)
22:54<Snow-Man>kormoc: Do you have monthly RAID checks? :)
22:54<kormoc>weekly :)
22:55<Snow-Man>oh, haha, maybe it is weekly, I dunno
22:55<kormoc>mdadm's full check is snazzy
22:55<Snow-Man>The Debian maintainer handles these things. :)
22:55<kormoc>I'm a gentoo guy, so I set it up all myself
22:55<Snow-Man>No wonder you're on 8.0
22:55*Snow-Man isn't a big gentoo fan
22:56<kormoc>heh, fair 'nuff
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23:18<Captain_Murdoch>sphery: good logic on the special groups explanation, saying people can just setup another group if they want to put files in the same place as the LiveTV group. I sometimes forget how flexible/powerful SGs are. :)
23:25<sphery>Thanks. (And, yeah, /someone/ did an excellent job writing the SG code.) I decided to go ahead and put in the ticket as I figured you could just as easily tell me what I did wrong on the ticket as on the mailing list.
23:26<Captain_Murdoch>I'm looking at the patch now, just finished recompiling.
23:27<sphery>HReadren: Did you see (and last post on the thread)? Might be a lot quicker than doing the scheduler patch you were working.
23:28<Captain_Murdoch>:) I made a copy of that post in a special mailbox I keep for ideas like that.
23:29<sphery>Yeah. I was quite impressed. I figured Bruce would be the only one who understood custom recordings well enough to do something like that...
23:30<sphery>He even has it updated with the join to prevent duplicate HDTV recordings.
23:31<sphery>Captain_Murdoch: I do have another question on the special groups. When I created my thumbnails group while testing the patch (uncommented it for some of the tests), I noticed that its directory (from my root partition--which I don't use for recordings) in the backend status output.
23:32<sphery>Do you think that the status page should only show the storage info for groups given in StorageGroup::getRecordingsGroups() or should it actually break out storage for special groups separately?
23:34<Captain_Murdoch>we probably should rework it some once we start using groups for MythVideo, etc.. Although, maybe that just means indicating what group types are on what disks, along with adding some stats per group type at the end. 'Recordings = blah used and blahblah free, LiveTV = etc., MythVide = etc.. haven't given it much thought, but we probably need to do something so the numbers don't get confusing.
23:35<Captain_Murdoch>I didn't understand the thumbnails question. I think you left something out in the last sentence.
23:35<sphery>Yeah. I guess that's easier to tackle once George submits his MythVideo patch.
23:35<Captain_Murdoch>"I noticed that its the backend status output"
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23:35<sphery>(was shown in)
23:36<Captain_Murdoch>in the computations by the scheduler?
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23:36<sphery>didn't go that far, but I think after janneg's change to the autoexpire/space available stuff, it shouldn't be
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23:37<sphery>didn't he make it so that autoexpire space needed is computed only based on what recordings are happening on the filesystem?
23:37-!-supernoob [n=root@] has left #mythtv ["Konversation terminated!"]
23:38<sphery>It was just listed as another drive in the Disk Usage section of the backend status page
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23:44<xris>wonder how hard it'd be to emulate mouse clicks in the flv player for would make a cool myth plugin
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23:44<xris>probably too hard.
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23:44<Captain_Murdoch>well, it would be listed on the status page, all SG dirs are listed there. That's part of what we'll need to modify that I was talking about above. I'm lookin at autoexpire.cpp now to see what he's doing there. I don't think that would be affected by any new group because it looks at the encoders and the fsID they are recording to. The status page just lists all unique filesystems. in programs/mythbackend/backendutil.cpp, B
23:44<Captain_Murdoch>kSpace() does its own SQL Query to get the list of dirs. Those queries should probably exclude Thumbnails, but if we modify the status page to differentiate between the different group types then it might not matter.
23:46<sphery>Yeah. I was pretty sure janneg had changed it that way. I just switched back to this screen and was about to type in the same conclusion on BackendQueryDiskSpace(). :)
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23:50<sphery>I think this is the specific changeset:
23:51<Captain_Murdoch>may need to extend the FileSystemInfo class to know about the group, but I haven't given that much if any thought. might require reworking a few things.
23:52<sphery>Did you happen to test what happens when an existing rule is set to use the LiveTV group and you enter the editor after the patch removes LiveTV from the list?
23:52<sphery>If not, I can do a quick test.
23:53<Captain_Murdoch>no, didn't test. I think the existing value will still show up in the list.
23:53<sphery>OK. I'll verify that it doesn't do any damage and get back to you.
23:54<sphery>didn't think to test that before.
23:54<Captain_Murdoch>I'll be around for a few longer, but not much. have a dentist appt first thing in the morning. happy happy joy joy
23:55<sphery>I'll either leave a "no problems" message in scrollback or a ticket for you
23:56<sphery>Hmmmm. wakeonlan is much less useful when the NIC on your computer fails to init during bootup... Have to go manually reboot my dev box.
23:56<Captain_Murdoch>did you see that ticket or posts about the patch to add a filter on the Watch Recordings screen so you can toggle on/off the display of 'Watched' programs, so you can choose to list only unwatched? do you have any ideas about how to display to the user that they are only seeing the 'unwatched' programs, not the full list?
23:57<Captain_Murdoch>maybe change "All Programs" to "Unwatched Programs".. hmmm... "all unwatched programs" is too long.
23:58<sphery>Saw the ticket, but no ideas. I kind of ignored it as I know I'm anything but a usability expert.
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23:59<Captain_Murdoch>still not sure whether I like my toggle method or his virtual group method better. I think I prefer the cleanliness of my filter, but need a way to differentiate to the user that they're only seeing unwatched stuff. so they don't freak out when they watch something and it disappears off the list.
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23:59<sphery>I hadn't thought of that. We would get a lot of "what's with the autodelete after watching" posts.
---Logclosed Thu Jan 31 00:00:27 2008