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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2008-02-08

---Logopened Fri Feb 08 00:00:40 2008
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00:03<sphery>Didn't trust my patch because of a 32-line offset in dbcheck.cpp. It turns out it was your commit for [15808] (menu option to forget a recording in recorded).
00:09<sphery>Uploaded the new patch. Also put the backup on master backend startup patch there if you want to use it for testing.
00:10<sphery>Now to clean up all these patch-testing backups...
00:27<Captain_Murdoch>ok, thanks. I assigned the ticket to myself. looking at something else right now, so I probably won't get to the backup one tonight.
00:28<Captain_Murdoch>also need to make a new menu item in MythFlix to move an item from one queue to another so my wife can tweak our queues some.
00:32<sphery>No hurry. Just didn't want to slow you down.
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02:17*Captain_Murdoch has had his fun conversing with some guy on the mailing list and decides that it's time for bed.
02:18*kormoc tips his hat towards Captain_Murdoch
02:52<Chutt>did i click the 'moderate' button
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03:21<kormoc>Yay! I finally solved that damn prototype error...
03:31<nordenm>where can I read more about mfd/mfe? I can't find anything but a few threads on gossamer not updated in a long time
03:32<gbee>mfd is dead
03:32<kormoc>And now IE support with the popups!
03:32<nordenm>d'oh. it was such a good idea.
03:32<kormoc>gbee, feel free to verify :)
03:32<gbee>kormoc: no windows ;)
03:32<kormoc>oh, heh, I thought you mentioned that it didn't work the other day, whoops
03:33<kormoc>that took way too long for what it was. Way to go Microsoft and have no decent debugging tools for your browser...
03:33<gbee>nordenm: it was ill conceived and eventually we'll just achieve similar functionality in a better way
03:33<nordenm>okay :)
03:33<gbee>what was it that you liked about mfd anyway?
03:34<nordenm>mostly the ability to listen to music while browsing gallery images
03:34<gbee>kormoc: it was the popups on the programme details page that I mentioned
03:34<gbee>nordenm: yeah, we've already implemented that in trunk without mfd
03:34<nordenm>awesome :) I really need to get svn up and running again
03:35<kormoc>gbee, ahh, right. I'll get that next
03:35<nordenm>the other major thing was the sharing of mythvideo-files in the same way as recordings
03:35<nordenm>I'm using links now to achive the same functionality, but it doesn't feel lika a good solutio
03:35<kormoc>nordenm, that's more backend controlled then mfd
03:36<nordenm>should be easy to implement in another way, but I know that is was beeing worked on in mfd
03:36<nordenm>ln -s, whatever they are called :)
03:36<gbee>yeah, stuff like sharing music/videos etc I want to move into the backend
03:36<gbee>of course there is always upnp which gives you the same functionality
03:36<kormoc>nordenm, that's a link, but if your FE can see the files locally to link them, why bother linking them?
03:37*kormoc is just curious
03:37<nordenm>ah no, my mistake. I'm using shares.
03:37<kormoc>ahh, kk, makes sense :)
03:38<nordenm>yeah, sorry about that :)
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05:10<justinh>morning all
05:11<justinh>having to wear a shirt & tie today. bloody royal visit
05:12<justinh>aye. we're getting some award or other this morning
05:15<justinh>oh ffs. it's not. it's a 'formal opening of the building'. we
05:15<justinh>we've only been here 14 months
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05:29<kormoc>and royalty shows up for building openings?
05:30<gbee>minor royalty, if you pay them
05:30<gbee>think cousins of the queen etc
05:30<gbee>fallen on hard times ;)
05:30<kormoc>Hehe, fair 'nuff
05:31<kormoc>Well, I should sleep some tonight, so off I ehad
05:31<gbee>remember when I was a kid that the Duke of something opened the new school building
05:33<gbee>we couldn't care less about him, the fun bit for us was a half day off school and the Motorcycle escort guys let us sit on their bikes and play with the sirens etc
05:33<gbee>I was about 9/10 at the time
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06:55<gbee>new dvb radio bug if anyone is interested -
06:55<gbee>didn't get a full log, wasn't logging at the time and those messages just pushed everything out of the history
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07:13<gbee>maybe MythTV users aren't so bad after all
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07:30<justinh>well, that's my bit done. stand around pretending to be a consciencious worker, yada yada
07:30<justinh>narrowly avoided having to speak to the Duke
07:31<justinh>gbee: is dish network that bad? ;)
07:47<justinh>oh btw gbee did you catch any scrollback from last night? been tinkering with yet more core theme images
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07:49<gbee> nice
07:49<justinh>can't just commit the new images though - there are placement issues to deal with as well
07:49<gbee>I'm going mad atm, I can't find code that I know I wrote
08:15<GreyFoxx>Anyone know why DVDbookmarking has to be explicitly enabled in the frontend setup? Is there a reason not to have it on by default ?
08:16<justinh>same reason recording bookmarking isn't enabled by default I suppose
08:16<GreyFoxx>It's not?
08:17<GreyFoxx>I don't think I've ever enabled recording bookmarking and it works for me
08:17<GreyFoxx>(not talking about auto bookmarkiung when you exit playback)
08:20<justinh>what other sort of bookmarking is there?
08:20<GreyFoxx>Hit Enter during playback to manually set a bookmark
08:20<GreyFoxx>enter again to clear it
08:21<justinh>ah that one
08:21<GreyFoxx>I use that one constantly
08:22<GreyFoxx>but It looks like with a DVD, we have acouple problems. 1 if DVDbookmarking is not enabled it still says it saved a bookmark, and actually does save one. It just doesn't get used. and 2. there is abug which is not letting you clear it for DVD's
08:22<justinh>are they stored by the ID of the disc?
08:22<GreyFoxx>yeah, name and I think serial number
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08:24<GreyFoxx>There is someone who might know.... skamithi
08:24<GreyFoxx>Do you know why we don't have DVD Bookmarking enabled by default ?
08:25<skamithi>greyfoxx: because it was an experimental feature then.. if its stable enough for you pls by all means make it default.
08:25<GreyFoxx>cool. I'm fixing a couple of things I've run into bookmark related and that was one that came up while I was looking through it all
08:25<GreyFoxx>I'll play with it more before I make it a default
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09:54<justinh>hmm should I tell this guy he shouldn't really be running mythtv over the internet?
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10:26<canatella>hello. I'm creating ruby bindings for mythtv. Are the files in libmythui/* a rewrite of libmyth/uitypes* and libmyth/xmlparse ?
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10:28<justinh>canatella: mythui is intended to replace libmyth/uitypes
10:29<whodat>justin: [mpeg2video @ 0xb73193a8]invalid mb type in P Frame at 75 30
10:29<whodat>ever see those before?
10:29<canatella>ok so better focus on that than. Unfortunatly I started my work with the mythnews plugin and it is using the old uitypes ....
10:30<justinh>ruby bindings anyway? the mind boggles - note - not an 'official' comment just my own $0.02
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10:40<canatella>justinh: what did you mean ? Why am I writing that ?
10:41<justinh>is this so we can end up with lots of plugins written in ruby & stuff?
10:41<justinh>my opinion is bad for morale - I'll stfu
10:43<canatella>sort of. Give your opinion so maybe I won't continue loosing my time ;)
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10:44<bookmark>hey i have a questiona bout mythtv
10:44<justinh>it's entirely your perogative - I just don't see ruby as anything but a web thing, and I personally believe things should be written in 'real' languages. again note this view is not representative of the project
10:44<justinh>bookmark: #mythtv-users
10:44<bookmark>oh alright
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10:48<canatella>justinh: Ruby is a scripting language like perl or python, it is not meant for the web but used in part for it.
10:48<canatella>justinh: for the real language thing, I might agree with you, but there are thing scripting language are better at
10:49<justinh>external scripts have their uses, sure
10:49<canatella>justinh: like writing glue code for creating plugins for example
10:50<canatella>I want to be able to write an email client for mythtv with a nice, more readable language which I think ruby is.
10:51<justinh>well, having to learn anything new is still having to learn something new IMHO, and I'll leave it at that & wish you luck - and yeah mythui is the way forward
10:51<canatella>it would cut my development time in 2 (the problem is developing the bindings takes 5 times ;))
10:51<canatella>justinh: I already have a ruby hello world plugin working =P
10:52<justinh>I just had a look at a ruby example. looks less easy to read than c++ at first glance
10:53<canatella>justinh: don't start me on that ;)
10:53<justinh>but - it might be a good thing, and I could only see it being a bad thing if there end up being hundreds of plugins like VDR has
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10:54<canatella>justinh: that problem is already solved with the official/non-official plugins ...
10:57<justinh>I'm not convinced but don't let that put you off ;)
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11:00<canatella>justinh: one day you'll see the light
11:01<justinh>from a user's perspective I couldn't care less so long as it works
11:02<justinh>but from the standpoint of somebody dabbling with code, it's all new. c++ is less new than anything else now - and besides there was nothing else when I started to dabble - no other way to get involved
11:02<canatella>anyway I was just joking with the light. You'll still be able to write your c++ ;)
11:02<justinh>heh well, people can write bad c++ too. I mean look at mine
11:04<canatella>well you should not look at mine because I'm learning C++ while doing this (I'm coming from a C background)
11:04<justinh>anyway good for you for getting stuck in & not just whining for the features ;)
11:04<justinh>canatella: I come from a non-programming background. I get by
11:05<canatella>well, one day we shall exchange our code so we can debug each other mem leaks then.
11:06<justinh>I was reading about one cause of memory leaks last night actually
11:11<justinh>I hope nothing I write is complex enough to have to worry about destroying the wrong thing ;)
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11:15<canatella>justinh: look at my ruby hello world plugin:
11:16<canatella>nice, small, clean compared to the C++ one...
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11:17<justinh>it's not taking that much out of the way IMHO - apart from maybe headers
11:17<justinh>defining everything is always where I fall down hardest
11:19<canatella>well, no makefile, no compile, no install, no memory management ... anyway I'll convince you later ;)
11:21<justinh>if it works it could just be like any other tool. hope it gets further than mythpython has so far :P
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11:25<canatella>is there an equivalent to MythThemedDialog in mythui ?
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13:57<stuarta>evening all
13:58<stuarta>time to dig into the oddness of the osx build
13:59<gbee>anyone know why Bruce reverted [15845]?
14:00<stuarta>not me
14:01<gbee>I don't dare ask him myself and I can't see why he did it
14:01<stuarta>there are numerous things he does i have no idea why
14:02<kormoc>hopefully he talked with janneg?
14:03<janneg>no but I suspect clipping or distortions
14:04<stuarta>ah that must be the ac3 gain commit
14:04<gbee>nope, it's the fix to the scheduler for giving HDTV programmes higher priority
14:05<gbee>it's been broken for a while, janneg fixed it and Bruce reverted the fix
14:05<janneg>oh, I guessed wrong
14:06<janneg>I'm asking
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14:16<janneg>hmm, I guess I know, how do I check bit flags in SQL?
14:18<kormoc>bit flags?
14:18<janneg>I need a bitwise and which mysql has: &
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14:19<kormoc>ahh, wasn't sure if you ment to do something like field = b'101010'
14:22<gbee>janneg: mysql understands & AFAIK
14:22<janneg>gbee: already commited
14:23<gbee>janneg: ahh
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14:25<janneg>let's hope that it was the reason why bruce reverted the commit
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14:32<stuarta>ah, phooey
14:33<stuarta>danielk broke videoout_quartz with those scale factor changes.
14:33<janneg>stuarta: just revert it
14:33<stuarta>now that wouldn't be a challenge
14:34<stuarta>it's more a won't compile since a variable has been renamed kind of thing
14:34<janneg>I hope it was obvious that it was just a joke
14:34<stuarta>it wasn't, but i wouldn't revert it anyway
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14:37<gbee>stuarta: danielk22 is here
14:37<stuarta>i'm just deciphering what was happening in that changeset
14:38<janneg>if it were a commit by bruce it would have been different
14:38<janneg>nah still joking around
14:39<Chutt>if you want me to step in..
14:39*stuarta chuckles
14:40<stuarta>why does videoout_quartz keep a copy of how much things have zoomed in?
14:42<janneg>no, I don't care enough to even write him that there are better ways to report bugs
14:42*stuarta suspects he needs to finish reading the -dev list
14:43<janneg>Chutt: he reverted it again
14:43<Chutt>i know
14:44<Chutt>seems correct to me
14:44<Chutt>bitfield, with hdtv + widescreen values
14:44<Chutt>you want hdtv there
14:44<MrGandalf>can't you guys place nice nice?
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14:53<janneg>I just saw it, replied to the second revert commit mail
14:54<gbee>needs to be future proof as well, further values may be added to that bitfield, simply looking for values > 0 is going to break things (maybe more than they already are)
14:54<janneg>MrGandalf: I don't know what I've done wrong except touching hte precious scheduler
14:55<MrGandalf>janneg: I get the feeling that's exactly what you did wrong.
14:56<stuarta>he needs to get a grip
14:56<gbee>there are plenty of ways to upset him without touching the scheduler
14:57<MrGandalf>well, looking at the sql that goes into that beast, I don't blame you guys for putting up with him.
15:05<gnome42>hmm, is the dbox2recorder still used?
15:05<MrGandalf>I'm surprised that was ever added..
15:06<janneg>gnome42: it works at least, and I have a almost finished channel scanner patch for it
15:07<gnome42>janneg: oh, ok. Maybe you can review a couple small patches (at your leisure :)
15:07<danielk22>surprisingly it is still used..
15:08*stuarta hmms
15:08<gnome42>found by inspection only. not tested
15:09<danielk22>gnome: I don't think we should be committing patches which weren't submitted..
15:09<Chutt>anyone happen to own a sanyo plv-z2000?
15:10<Chutt>wrong channel, heh =)
15:11<gnome42>danielk22: Submitted to a trac ticket you mean?
15:11<danielk22>yep, or at least e-mailed to the list
15:11<danielk22>I could see exceptions being made, but not lightly
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15:12<gnome42>danielk22: Oh, ok.
15:14<sphery>danielk22, MrGandalf: on #4242 (configurable read/write sizes), wouldn't it make more sense to make it per fsID as a storage group could have directories from multiple different filesystems. Unfortunately, I don't know how we could make a UI for configuring it...
15:15<MrGandalf>danielk22: if you have a minute, I was thinking of a small project this weekend. I thought it would be nice to check for valid frames from ffmpeg/libmpeg2's decode before tearing down the dummy decoder on a change.. wondering if that's, in your opinion, indeed a small project or not.
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15:16<MrGandalf>sphery: that could get complicated and confusing for the user I'm thinking.
15:16<MrGandalf>but a good point non the less.
15:16<danielk22>mrgandalf: i dunno... you could give it a few hours and see if you make any progress, and then we would know..
15:17<sphery>Yeah. I guess if it's per-storage group, users who need the functionality could just be required to define their storage groups appropriately...
15:17<janneg>sphery: the ui has no notion of fsIDs, you can only configure by storagegroup or by directory
15:17<sphery>Yeah. That's what I meant when I said I don't know how we could make a UI for configuring it.
15:19<sphery>And since it's detected at (every) runtime, saving it would be an issue (unless we come up with a for NFS/Samba, use... for local filesystems, use ... (don't know if we can detect RAID, so that's probably no better, anyway))
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15:20<MrGandalf><directory not found>
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15:25*stuarta does a little dance
15:25<justinh>gnome42: and after I got rid of my dbox2 too.. :)
15:25<stuarta>looks like videoout_quartz builds now
15:25<justinh>evening stuarta, all
15:28<justinh>oh bugger. wish I'd kept the larger versions of the up & down arrows I edited last night
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15:42<stuarta>osdxvmc.cpp:15: warning: redundant redeclaration of 'XvImage* XvShmCreateImage(Display*, XvPortID, int, char*, int, int, XShmSegmentInfo*)' in same scope
15:44<janneg>noticed that a couple of days too but forgot to look into it
15:45<stuarta>i'm constantly playing catchup. ENOTIME
15:45*stuarta taunts his machine to build faster
15:47<stuarta>on the bright side. this can of beer is larger than the previous one :)
15:49<danielk22>stuarta: i think that is due to Xorg header changes, I don't think we can fix the warning without breaking the build with earlier Xorg/XFree86 versions
15:49<stuarta>fair enuf. it's only a warning after all
15:49<janneg>I have that definition in Xvlib.h
15:49<stuarta>got a fix for the videoout_quartz build failure, which i'll submit shortly
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15:50<neopsyche>can anyone help me install xdtv
15:50<stuarta>not around here
15:50*stuarta points at the topic
15:51*justinh points at
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15:53<stuarta>is that bloke stupid??
15:54<justinh>they only come out from under the bridge at weekends, some of em
15:55<stuarta>where did i put my flamethrower
16:00<gbee>justinh: looks good, but what's new about it?
16:01<justinh>arrows :)
16:01<justinh>more G.A.N.T-y
16:01<danielk22>stuarta: thx for the videooutquartz fix, i forgot that it didn't use moveresize
16:02<stuarta>np, just committing it now
16:02<stuarta>post 0.21 we can refactor it
16:02<gbee>justinh: ahh, ok, since I don't use GANT I was left guessing
16:02<stuarta>stupid thing is using local copies of base class variables
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16:04<gbee>looking at that screen I'm starting to understand why GANT is the default theme, compared to some of the other core themes it looks as though more care went into it
16:05<Bukwheat>hello all
16:05<janneg>danielk22: including X11/extensions/Xvlib.h before X11/extensions/XShm.h would fix the warning for
16:08<gbee>justinh: already got the mythui replacement for that mythvideo browse mode in mind - imagine across the bottom a 'ribbon' of posters/screenshots which you can scroll left/right, up top the large poster/description and when you select something from the bottom it 'opens' at the top
16:08<gbee>may be a little touchscreen/mouse centric though
16:09<justinh>gbee: sounds nice :)
16:10<danielk22>janne: if that will do it, then lets do it...
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16:13<sphery>gbee: btw, quilt is well worth the time.
16:13<xris>got a weird request from some guy at (in spanish) asking me if I'd like to collaborate on user interface / usability
16:13-!-\S2 is now known as S2
16:14<gbee>sphery: ok cool, I'll make the effort to read that guide sometime over the weekend
16:15<sphery>It's pretty quick, too. Most of the time I spent was just reworking my build notes, creating series files for mythtv, mythplugins, mythweb, myththemes, ...
16:16<gbee>going to be visiting my least favourite PC retailer tomorrow - need portal drive space fast :(
16:16<stuarta>oh dear :(
16:17<Bukwheat>can anyone think of a reason the backend would crash and not leave a core (assuming ulimit -c unlimited) was run in the script just before starting the svc? (I just threw the line in the init.d script.)
16:18<Bukwheat>I'm trying to catch a problem that's been bugging me forever. Now I have some time to work with it.
16:18<stuarta>you build it with debug?
16:18<stuarta>on svn head?
16:18<Bukwheat>yeah.. symbols, etc.
16:18<justinh>gbee: thing I've just noticed & dunno if you're aware... all the different folder icons :-\
16:19<Bukwheat>no..using the .20 -2 source
16:19<stuarta>first test with svn head. many many many problems fixed
16:19<Bukwheat>either way, it should still dump a core right? symbols or no?
16:19<justinh>bah to hell with it. CBA to change those for G.A.N.T
16:19<gbee>it's work related, so a case of spending money to make money, but I don't really like being forced to make quick hardware purchases as it normally means I have to make a compromise of some sort (and step foot in somewhere like PC World)
16:19<stuarta>in theory. best attach a debugger to the running backend before triggering the fault
16:19<Bukwheat>did the protocol change from .20-2? can I still use the "released" front ends?
16:19<gbee>justinh: folder icons in G.A.N.T or in default?
16:20<stuarta>ie. it's changed
16:20<justinh>gbee: default. mythgallery, mythvideo, mythmusic, mythzoneminder..
16:20<stuarta>so backup your database before testing
16:20<jams>gbee- when GANT was made the default, i think the old blue might have been the only other "core" theme
16:20<stuarta>Bukwheat: see section 22.2 of the howto
16:21<justinh>jams: what do you reckon to the bits & bobs I've done so far?
16:21-!-superm1 [n=superm1@ubuntu/member/superm1] has joined #mythtv
16:22<jams>justinh- it's good work, think it stays true to the style of GANT.
16:22<justinh>it's a tricky style to take off ;)
16:22<gbee>justinh: ahh, yeah, vaguely aware of the problem there - that's the sort of problem I'd like to see eliminated
16:22<justinh>even if you are only reworking brush strokes
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16:23<Bukwheat>I'll give it a shot running inside GDB.
16:23<janneg>danielk22: another redefinition warning for XShmQueryExtension, I could check for both functions in configure
16:24*stuarta trouts the osx-packager script
16:26-!-czth_ [n=dbrobins@nat/microsoft/x-2a9cf1eb5ced62c7] has joined #mythtv
16:26<justinh>arghhh damn mythvideo's double exit
16:29<sphery>Bukwheat: limits.conf?
16:31<Chutt>janneg, did you ever get a response from bruce?
16:31<Chutt>(he replied to me)
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16:33<Bukwheat>limits.conf looks good. test apps dump fine.
16:34<danielk22>janne, don't spend too much time on this, they are just redef warnings... there are some actual bugs in trac :)
16:34<Bukwheat>I'm going to try again following the exact instructions in 22.2 (as opposed to how I think it should be working ) :)
16:34<sphery>Bukwheat: only affects login shells, but chances are you're starting mythbackend with a login shell to get a proper env (i.e. HOME, etc.) Might also be a setting in su or sudo or whatever you're using to start mythbackend.
16:35<Bukwheat>I'm starting it with an init.d script, but I have the script set unlimited, then echo back the output from ulimit -c which displays unlimited. then the service is started...
16:41<Bukwheat>sphery: I just figured that would have the same env as the way I normally start the backend.
16:45<janneg>Chutt: yes, I accidently dropped you from reply
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16:49<janneg>I hadn't realized that it was a private mail. otherwise I had added gbee too
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16:51<janneg>resent it
16:53<gbee>If I don't need to be involved, then feel free to leave me out - I don't need the stress that Bruce usually causes ;)
16:54<janneg>gbee: too late. he claims that program.hdtv was, is and should forever just indicate hdtv shows
16:57<gbee>I don't suppose he gives a rational explanation for that standpoint
16:59<danielk22>he would rather have more booleans added than use flags
16:59<janneg>I suspect DB design but I don't know what he thinks
17:01-!-turbo is now known as briand
17:02<janneg>I don't think adding 10 new booleans for the properties we have now would be a good idea
17:02<gbee>we have what, a dozen different properties now? So that's another ten columns in the program and recordedprogram tables, requiring every single query using those tables to be updated and updated again every time we add a new property
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17:03<kormoc>A lot of people use another table to hold flag info, thus keeping it separate from the main bulk info (and speeder to query on)
17:04<kormoc>it is a lot of work to convert to tho
17:04<gbee>was I wrong for using flags to save space and build in room for future expansion? (Serious question, because I'm genuinely baffled by this)
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17:04<kormoc>gbee, it's actually a often done design route, my only thought would be the name hdtv seems to imply only hdtv, not say, resolution_type or the like
17:04<Chutt>reusing the same field's a bit wonky
17:05<Chutt>but flags are fine, otherwise
17:05<Chutt>renaming it would've worked better
17:05<gbee>I'd agree, the only reason I didn't rename, replace, delete the column was to allow some backwards compatibility in the schema
17:06<gbee>if that's not a concern then those columns can be renamed to fit their new purpose
17:08<gbee>I think renaming the columns was discussed in here prior to the changes being committed, but it's too long ago for me to remember clearly
17:09<janneg>gbee: it would have been wiser to add *properties columns and delete the hdtv, stereo, ... columns later to archieve backwards compability
17:09<danielk22>gbee: i was about to say what janne just said :)
17:10<danielk22>I'm looking forward to deleting all those "delete after 0.21" columns in dbcheck.cpp
17:11<gbee>that would have been logical I guess, I wish I'd thought of it at the time
17:14<kormoc>could still do it, no?
17:14<gbee>lesson learnt I guess, does anyone want to prepare a patch which renames those columns by the method described about?
17:14<stuarta>why do we need recordedprogram table when we have the recorded table?
17:15<gbee>kormoc: yeah, I'm just a little busy at the moment (and I don't really want to poke Bruce)
17:15<xris>recorded == files, recordedprogram == program data?
17:15<kormoc>Heh, fair 'nuff
17:15<xris>stuarta: personally, I think we need to redesign the program table and its relations...
17:15<xris>break things up into better relations.. program, schedule, etc.
17:15*kormoc starts drooling at the thought
17:15<xris>would save space and speed up some queries.
17:15<stuarta>there is some difference between the tables, but not enough to warrent keeping it.
17:16<xris>stuarta: hence breaking things apart
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17:16<kormoc>I swear at times I just live for design reworks
17:16<xris>if we're going to do it, we should do it right.
17:16<stuarta>"rainy day project" (TM)
17:16<gbee>xris: I'd love to do that, but when it's been suggested in the past it's met some resistance because everyone has their own idea about how databases should be arranged
17:16<xris>I have most of the table layout stuff done for SD.. would be nice to port that stuff over to mythtv.
17:17<gbee>personally I prefer the fully rationalised database with linking tables
17:17<xris>we'd want to add fields for SD stuff, too.
17:17<kormoc>gbee, there's people who don't like that design style?
17:17<kormoc>(important people I guess I should say)
17:17<stuarta>there's not already enough useful fields for that?
17:17<xris>pm me email addresses and I'll send you guys a copy of my html spec as it currently lives. it's vaguely related to some TMS stuff, so I'm not comfortable dumping it into a pastebin
17:18<gbee>kormoc: err, yes, when I proposed it ~18 months ago Chutt wasn't in favour
17:18<kormoc>fair 'nuff
17:19<kormoc>Tho, if we go to mysql 5 + innodb, we can actually do foreign keys and the like, that might tip the scales some as well...
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17:20<gbee>I love foreign keys and cascade deletion etc, but I might just be revealing the geek in me
17:20<xris>kormoc: mysql 5 is happening for .21
17:20<kormoc>ahh, righto
17:20<xris>not sure we want foreign keys, though.. could get messy for some people
17:20<xris>gbee: email?
17:21<gbee>in purely practical terms it makes things much easier if stuff like cascade deletion/updates are used and it eliminates the risk of orphaned records
17:21<kormoc>true enough, but the idea is wonderful
17:21*kormoc nods
17:23<gbee>xris: sorry, working with three screens at the moment, which is why I'm a little slow to reply or notice comments
17:24<stuarta>now why couldn't bruce say, this is what is wrong with what you've done when he reverted it?
17:24<gbee>not his style
17:25<stuarta>that's an understatement
17:25<xris>anyway, email sent.
17:26<xris>you can look at the tms_* tables to see my take on the breakdown of their raw data feed, what fields we'd have to work with, etc.
17:26<xris>I actually break their stuff down quite a bit further than they do, but they're dealing with textfiles instead of databases so I have no idea what their actual schema is.
17:27*stuarta waits for the greylisting to take effect
17:27<xris>I want to work with the xmltv community to come up with a standard way to represent channel + station + provider + etc. so we can get a better way to organize channel icons, etc.
17:30<xris>since US stations (and many non-US ones) can be broken down to: network id (e.g. Fox), affiliate id (e.g. KCPQ in Seattle), provider (e.g. broadcast, comcast), channel|serviceid+freqid+etc
17:31<stuarta>i suspect the US is somewhat unique in this respect
17:31<xris>oh? you guys get scifi on Sky, no?
17:32<stuarta>but no affiliates
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17:32<stuarta>nothing at all like that
17:32<xris>yeah. but we need a way to represent all of that info
17:32<stuarta>its a name only
17:32<xris>bbc1 via sky vs broadcast vs cable company?
17:32<stuarta>provider ~= delivery method & details
17:33<stuarta>that's what i mean by delivery method
17:33<xris>but yeah, less complex in smaller countries.
17:33<stuarta>same channel, generaly same content
17:33<xris>it's the "generally" that's the problem
17:33<stuarta>(some differences in hours = generally)
17:34<stuarta>ie. 24hrs per day on sat, but 12hrs on dvb-t
17:34-!-renatofilho^ [n=renato@] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
17:34<stuarta>otherwise the same
17:34<stuarta>australia has regional versions of channels
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17:35<janneg>germany too
17:35<xris>anyway, would be nice to have a way to maintain/reference all of that stuff in a standard way, regardless of region
17:35<stuarta>but that's mainly confined to different ads and local news broadcasts
17:35<stuarta>suppose thats equivalent to your affiliates
17:36<xris>local affiliates here really only have news, commercials and occasionally some local daytime programming
17:36<xris>or you have local-only stations...
17:36<gbee>UK as well, BBC One, Two and ITV One have regional variations - local news and occassional differences in programming
17:36<xris>we have KING here, which is I think CBS.. and KING owns KONG, which is its own station.
17:37*stuarta chuckles at the humour in that naming
17:37<xris>sad that it took me a long time to get the joke on the names.
17:38<janneg>in germany we have programs with a regional window of 30 min - 2 hours per day
17:38<xris>anyway, just from watching all of this channel icon stuff, I've come to realize that we need a bunch of different information to define a channel.. and the rule is generally "one or many references" to the other pieces of data...
17:38<xris>but no guarantee that there will be more than one reference.
17:43<xris>anyway, back to the original discussion, I'd LOVE to see the program table layout change
17:43<xris>would make it a lot easier to integrate some of the stuff I want to do with SD
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17:52<MrGandalf>janneg: you're German?
17:53<janneg>any opinion on the new column names? audio_properties seems a little long
17:53<stuarta>aprop, vprop?
17:54-!-jmk_ [n=jmk@] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:54<stuarta>or audio_prop, video_prop?
17:54<janneg>MrGandalf: yes, more people should use non matching country code domains
17:54*MrGandalf would LOVE to move to Germany.
17:55<janneg>the enums are called AudioProps, VideoProps. I can't decide
17:57-!-clever is now known as clever[rev]
17:57*xris would settle for moving to anywhere in europe
17:57<xris>or just away from the US again
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18:00<gbee>I think audioprop, videoprop etc conveys the meaning without being too long
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18:03<gbee>danielk22: are we still using the dummy video streams in themes/default?
18:04<clever[rev]>how do i change threads in gdb?
18:05*stuarta guesses thread <threadnum>
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18:08<danielk22>gbee, i don't think so. I think the DVB Radio changes in multirec got rid of the last use of them.
18:09*stuarta suggests gbee try a dvb radio station
18:10<clever[rev]>stuarta: even 'show threads' was giving nothing
18:10<clever[rev]>which makes me suspect gdb couldnt even see the threads...
18:10<clever[rev]>(gdb) thread apply all bt full
18:10<clever[rev]>(gdb) bt
18:10<stuarta>gdb does get confused sometime
18:11<clever[rev]>all i did was attach to the backend
18:11<clever[rev]>gdb mythbackend PID
18:11<stuarta>yup it's confused
18:11<clever[rev]>the backend was confused too
18:11<clever[rev]>sucking down 80% cpu when IDLE
18:11<clever[rev]>yet still functioning just fine
18:13<gbee>I'll grep around and try dvb radio/mheg only streams tomorrow, just looking to cleanup themes/default and default-wide
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18:24<xris>ok, so clarification on the spanish UI design guy... he's the UI designer for and would like to help with UI in MythTV
18:25<janneg>gbee: where is the xmltv parsing?
18:26<gbee>from memory, filename might not be entirely correct
18:27<gbee>janneg: thanks for working on this btw
18:32<janneg>ah, it works already on the programinfo, so no changes
18:33<janneg>gbee: you're welcome. I just want to get my bugfix in
18:35<gbee>lot of work in relation to the size of the actual bug fix
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18:47<xris>justinh / gbee: any thoughts about working with a professional UI designer
18:51<gbee>I'd say we need all the help we can get, but as far as my personally working with someone, I'm just too busy right now, don't know when I'm going to be free as my current client keeps sending additional work my way
18:52<xris>it's also a little more work because he doesn't speak very good english
18:55<gbee>ordinarily I'd probably be interested, though it really depends what they are proposing - just a new theme or root/branch reform of the mythtv UI?
18:56<xris>I think he wants to evaluate the UI and offer recommendations
18:56<xris>which is a little difficult to do because so much of the UI is tied to the theme
18:57<gbee>and so many of the current UI flaws are tied directly to the current UI library
18:58<xris>gbee: plus, I'd rather you save your time so you can get metallurgy ready for .21 inclusion. :)
18:58<gbee>which we're in the progress of replacing
18:58<xris>that, too
18:59<justinh>xris: depends if they can draw or not
18:59<gbee>if he wants to come back in a couple of months once 0.21 is out the door and I've been able to get a few more of the mythui changes into trunk, then maybe I'd be more receptive to the idea
19:00<xris>yeah, that's my thought, too
19:01<justinh>we can easily take recommendations - add them to the mythui notes
19:02<justinh>probably be good for an outsider to come back with constructive input. there's a lot we could miss just by being over familiar
19:05<janneg> adds video, audio properties and subtitle types
19:05<justinh>as for working with somebody myself - I don't know if I can put enough time aside. I've put a lot on my plate
19:07<justinh>and xris - remember ui design isn't just about graphics ;)
19:07<gbee>xris: if they want to send a list of comments and recommendations then we promise to consider them, but we don't have the time right not to enter into a dialogue with them
19:08<xris>justinh: yes.. but you two have been doing the most UI work lately, which is why I asked
19:08<xris>I think UI design has very little to do with graphics, actually
19:08<gbee>as justinh says, if it's just a matter of a new theme/graphics rather than usability then that's not what UI design is really about
19:08<justinh>mythui will be going a long way towards addressing my own bugbears with the ui
19:09<xris>he seems to be a true UI designer
19:09<justinh>those are mostly consistency of look & feel
19:09<xris>not a graphic designer
19:09<justinh>well, I think it'd be daft to turn down the help of a pro
19:09<justinh>what's the worst that can happen? he wants myth to end up new, edgy & risky like Elisa :P
19:09<xris>the language barrier is my only concern
19:09<gbee>what mythui will do is allow themers to take a greater responsibility for usability and the UI in general
19:10<xris>but google's english -> spanish stuff seems to be pretty good
19:10<xris>only a couple of small mistakes in what I just sent him
19:10<justinh>I'd wager his English is better than my Spanish
19:10<gbee>I took Spanish at school, to an intermediate level - but I've forgotten most of it since then ;)
19:11<stuarta>all you need to know is "uno cerveza por favour!"
19:12-!-Dibblah [] has joined #mythtv
19:12<stuarta>or if someone else is buying "donde esta mi cerveza?"
19:12<gbee>one of the things I'm hoping we'll see with mythui is themers coming up with great new UI ideas, stuff which improves mythtv generally and which can then be replicated in future themes
19:12<justinh>no no no no. quattro cerveza por favour
19:12<xris>gbee: I grew up speaking spanish fluently and I've forgotten most of it
19:12<stuarta>ah, si, mucho cerveza per favour!
19:13<justinh>gbee: us or those guys who port mediaportal skins?
19:13<stuarta>janneg: the initial reading of the patch looks okay to me
19:13<gbee>stuarta: una cerveza
19:13<stuarta>however my fine detail comb is broken atm
19:14<stuarta>gbee: only if you are female ;)
19:14<stuarta>actually i suspect cerveza is female
19:15<justinh>sexing inanimate objects.. how perculiar
19:15<stuarta>it's a strange language
19:15<justinh>anyway xris I think say yay, let's start talking. maybe form a panel at some point when things get more involved
19:15<stuarta>but when you start speaking it, it makes complete sense
19:16<kormoc>justinh, my server is named Christina, my laptop is named Janet, my phone is named Jessica...
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19:16<gbee>I liked Spanish, certainly more than French
19:16<stuarta>i love spanish and spain.
19:16<stuarta>great place
19:16<stuarta>28 euro cents for a beer!
19:17<xris>justinh: I'm a big proponent of getting a trained UI person involved with mythtv. I think that lack of good UI design is one of the biggest problems with FOSS programs in general
19:17<stuarta>er, and paella and all those other nice thigns
19:17<xris>wine and cheese. :)
19:18<stuarta>really large swords
19:18<gbee>as a student doing field work on Tenerife we'd eat three course meals each night, including drinks for under a fiver
19:18<justinh>xris: well, let's have his input, balance that against what's already planned for mythui & see where we go
19:18<stuarta>go to toledo sometime
19:18<xris>though my experience in spain is limited to about 2 hours in the airport, and a couple of weeks in the canary islands, which though technically part of spain, are nowhere near it geographically
19:18<stuarta>you can get yourself a complete set of plate armour and a sword
19:18<Chutt>janneg, err, how'd you manage to delete + add the file? :p
19:18*stuarta did wonder that as well
19:19<xris>justinh: I told him to join the -dev list but will cc the two of you on future emails if you want to talk with him.
19:19<gbee>best deal was the Chinese restaurant, £3 for all you can eat & drink (beer, not spirits)
19:19<justinh>xris: righto, and I'm with gbee on waiting to see what comes out of mythui - but there's no harm in starting discussions before more is done
19:20<justinh>xris: and maybe in future, with a real ui designer on board we can prevent the mythweather revamp settings stuff happening again ;)
19:21*stuarta rofl
19:22<justinh>but then it's always real easy to spot what's wrong with a user interface - not quite so easy to get it right. hell, plenty of non FOSS product gets it badly wrong
19:23<gbee>coders are rarely UI designers and vice-versa, you have a different way of seeing things when you mostly deal with the code
19:23<justinh>getting it right is one thing- coding it is something else entirely too
19:24<stuarta>yeah, you do need someone to sit back and say this is how it should look/work
19:24<justinh>gbee: very true, and nobody is ever meant any disrespect when that's pointed out.
19:25<justinh>be a different matter if their day job was UI design though :P
19:25<janneg>Chutt: on purpose. svn rm $FILE && svn cp -rX $REPO$FILE $FILE. reverting and restoring history which was in this case pointless but I'm used to it
19:28<justinh>xris, gbee - another reason I think the pro guy is a good idea to have around is he'll probably be able to help think up new ways of doing things. mythui is bringing opportunities to shake things up - I'm not saying to change everything around for the sake of it (far from it) but if there's a better way & we're short on ideas (I know I always am)... :)
19:28<xris>justinh: nah, just copy apple. ;)
19:29<justinh>I'm now officially sick to fscking death of reflections & shiny plastic
19:29<gbee>it's sometimes hard to accept that just because you think your application is easy to use, not everyone will agree - I've run some of my work past elderly relatives before just to get a different perspective, the experience can be pretty painful but you should never dismiss what is said
19:29<stuarta>are multiple program descriptions supposed to stack up at the bottom of mythweb's upcoming recordings list?
19:30<xris>stuarta: bug. kormoc's working on it
19:30<stuarta>(and does it happen for anyone else?)
19:30<gbee>stuarta: no, known bug with kormoc's recent changes
19:30<stuarta>glad to know it's a known issue :)
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19:31<justinh>gbee: I tested mythappearance on my wife ;)
19:31<stuarta>oh dear
19:32<justinh>heh poor her. I know
19:33<justinh>she's been using mythmusic on the sly, so I figure it can't be that hard to work out. hell even saving new playlists!
19:33<gbee>justinh: would have to say that I'm never short on ideas, I'm just always short on time - sometimes I just have to let things go because although I think I have a good idea , I know I don't have the time. Case in point, some of Paul's mythmusic changes, I had something else in mind but Paul was the one with the time to work on it.
19:33<justinh>though maybe that was an accident
19:34<gbee>I'm off to bed, g'night all
19:34<justinh>nn gbee
19:35<kormoc>stuarta, yeah, it'll be fixed this weekend, sorry bout it
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19:36<stuarta>kormoc: no worries, i'm good at picking up on things. if they are known then that's fine :)
19:36<justinh>sometimes I think maybe if the -dev list was less about every Joe & his opinion.. i.e. just actual development talk... but I find myself shaking my head in disbelief about some of the 'improvement' ideas
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20:30<fatejudger>justinh: sorry about that mythbackend locked up
20:30<fatejudger>justinh: I was scanning for channels
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21:13<Chutt>for new ui - how important is being able to place video anywhere on screen?
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21:18<justinh>Chutt: not really fussed myself but I can see others seeing it as a must
21:19<justinh>video windows in main menus etc (blech)
21:19<Chutt>preview video in the recordings screen, epg, etc
21:20<justinh>as far as the other areas are concerned it's nice to have flexibility of placement
21:21<justinh>especially since everything else is pretty much free form
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23:22<Helvasca>time to set up another box :)
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 09 00:00:49 2008