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#mythtv IRC Logs for 2008-09-17

---Logopened Wed Sep 17 00:00:12 2008
---Daychanged Wed Sep 17 2008
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06:53<assasd>I've have a little question. I want to make the " Recording XX" message in livetv to stay for the duration of the show . I have managed to do so but the problem is that every time another message/menu appears the text disappear .Is there any way to make the message stay even when the menu change?
06:53<stuarta>please read the topic
06:54<assasd>Well it is about development to mythtv
06:54<assasd>sorry if its the wrong room though I'll try the other one
07:03<gbee>right room, but it might be something you have to figure out for yourself
07:04<gbee>I couldn't suggest a solution without referring back to the code, it's been too long since I did any work on or near the OSD - I think the same is true for everyone else
07:05<assasd>I can run a Isrecording check in the main LiveTV loop but that wouldn't be efficient
07:07<gbee>the solution is probably going to be in the OSD code itself, you need to prevent that container being hidden from view
07:07<assasd>This wouldn't fix all the problems
07:08<assasd>cause if a user will go to the Tvguide while recording a livetv show the message will not be displayed after the user exit the TV guide
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07:15<assasd>I'll try and do that in the main loop of the livetv though I am not really happy about it
07:16<assasd>I should also send an email to the mailing list as this is feature that the normal user may want
07:19<assasd>OK I am off for a short while ( need to reinstall my PVR150 on my test machine
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07:23<gbee>it might be something that gets added as an option when the OSD code is re-written sometime in the next year
07:27<laga>gbee: *poke* ;)
07:28<gbee>laga: doing it right now
07:30<laga>haha, great :)
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07:37<gbee>-fixes patch committed, will sort the trunk one in a few hours
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07:55<dramman>dmesg is showing "cx88[0]: irq mpeg [0x80000] pci_abort*
07:55<dramman>cx88[0]/2-mpeg: general errors: 0x00080000
07:56<stuarta>mine does that too. i ignore it (btw. this is a users question
07:57<dramman>hmm, thanks
07:58<dramman>I'm not even watching/recording while it's doing that.
07:59<dramman>I should probably configure the shutdown script...
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12:40<j-rod>speaking of -fixes... new x264 horks mythtv 0.21 builds...
12:40*j-rod hasn't investibigated at all, just noticed the latest rpmfusion x264 busts rpmfusion mythtv builds
12:41<laga>do you use libh264? or whatever it's called
12:41<j-rod>libx264, yeah
12:42<laga>is that actually necessary? it's not necessary for decoding AFAIK
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12:42<j-rod>honestly not sure what its needed for
12:43<laga>ubuntu has it too, but i believe it's unnecessary
12:43<laga>just an uneducated guess :)
12:45<gbee>it's not a required dep, I'm not even sure how any builds come to be using it?
12:46<laga>by looking around in configure i suppose
12:47<gbee>no wonder people complain about mythtv packages pulling in a heap of deps :D
12:48*j-rod hunts for build failure log...
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12:50<j-rod>--enable-x264 flag I presume pulls it in for some reason
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13:08<j-rod>echo " --enable-libx264 enable H.264 encoding via x264 [default=no]"
13:14<janneg>j-rod: you don't need libx264, the --enable-x264 can be dropped from the build, only side effect is that the packet can loose the libx264 dependency
13:14<janneg>j-rod: and that shouldn't be present in the ./configure --help output
13:14<j-rod>janneg: ah, so it isn't
13:15<j-rod>ok, so just drop that option and the build dep
13:22<janneg>it's inherited from ffmpeg configure and "commented" with a redirection to ease merging
13:22<janneg>it's a pity that shell doesn't know multi line comments
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13:29<j-rod>janneg: so then, should everything in that same block not be enabled as well?
13:29<j-rod>such as libxvid, libtheora, libfaac, etc
13:31<j-rod>looks like it
13:34<janneg>xvid and faac doesn't make sense, theora might if ffmpeg has no native decoder, libfaad should probably be enabled
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13:36<janneg>j-rod: decoding libraries should generally enabled if ffmpeg has no naitve decoder for that format. encoding externel libraries won't be used by mythtv
13:37<j-rod>janneg: gotcha. going to shove through a new build with some lighter-weight flags in just a sec...
13:40<gbee>claims experimental theora encoding/decoding support - not sure what that means in practice nor how long it's been there (i.e. 0.21?)
13:42<gbee>libfaad, but not libfaac (have we ever needed faac?)
13:43<janneg>maybe mythmusic for ripping
13:44<gbee>I'd have to check, but I doubt it, all the decoding done in mythmusic linked directly against the libs, it doesn't use libavcodec
13:45<gbee>I'm assuming the same is true for the encoding
13:45<janneg>but that would be most likely a separate dependency of mythmusic
13:46<gbee>at least for the moment :D
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16:25<Cardoe>j-rod: what flags are being dropped on what?
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16:26<octavsly>Hi there
16:26<octavsly>I have a starbge proble with an HVR1110
16:27<j-rod>Cardoe: fedora mythtv builds were pulling in a bunch of libraries that they shouldn't be
16:27<octavsly>I have spent two days understanding what i shappening but I don't know how to fix it
16:27<octavsly>Hmmm. Am I disturbing something?
16:28<j-rod>Cardoe: the configure line had a bunch of stuff enabled that has been commented out in ./configure --help
16:28<j-rod>commented out, because generally, the native ffmpeg variants of these {en,de}coders should be used
16:28<Cardoe>So I shouldn't be passing --enable-libx264?
16:28<j-rod>Cardoe: yep, so I'm told, anyway. :)
16:29<octavsly>Cardoe... gentoo guy ? Nice "meeting" you
16:29<Cardoe>and xvid and faac eh...
16:30<Cardoe>octavsly: howdy
16:30<sphery>octavsly: I think you want #mythtv-users for your question
16:30<j-rod>Cardoe: so I just dropped a52, mp3lame, faac, x264, vorbis and xvid off my %configure macro
16:31<octavsly>Yes and no. Let me tell you what the problem is, then I will go to the mythtv-users
16:31<j-rod>of course, never mind that the latest cdparanoia fucks over the build of mythmusic...
16:31<Cardoe>j-rod: myth does link to those libraries though...
16:32<janneg>Cardoe: only if they are enabled
16:32<j-rod>Cardoe: if you tell it to, it certainly does :) janneg can probably explain way better than I can
16:32<Cardoe>Well... it automagically links to them..
16:32<Cardoe>at least some of them
16:32<Cardoe>We had this discussion a while back
16:32<Cardoe>when I added them as depends in Gentoo
16:33<Cardoe>since if you had them installed on your system.. it would automagically link to some of them
16:33<j-rod>ah yes, that would be problematic...
16:33<janneg>I don't think so, all external libraries are disabled by default, lame is the only exception
16:34<Cardoe>janneg: so you're saying I don't need to pass --enable-libmp3lame, it'll always do it anyway?
16:34<sphery>wouldn't it only link to them if you pass the --enable flags (that were commented in the myth configure) for them?
16:35<Cardoe>I'm building without right now and I'll be able to say for certain
16:35<Cardoe>sphery: you're on the gnome-lirc-properties project right?
16:37<j-rod>ah, g-l-p, the source of 3/4 of the patches in the fedora lirc userspace...
16:38<Cardoe>j-rod: why does lirc need so many patches for g-l-p?
16:39<j-rod>Cardoe: mostly infrastructure things -- the 'standardized key namespace' bits so most remotes Just Work, because they ultimately report the same key values
16:40<Cardoe>yeah that stuff is going to be nice
16:40<j-rod>also some config alterations so g-l-p can parse and/or configure things like driver as needed
16:40<j-rod>in /etc/sysconfig/lirc in the fedora case (and ubuntu/debian, iirc)
16:43*octavsly slaps sphery around with a small 50lb Unix Manual
16:43<octavsly>sorry wrong button
16:46<sphery>Cardoe: nope, not me. Perhaps some other sphery
16:46<janneg>Cardoe: lame is a mandatory dependency of mythtv
16:46<janneg>configure will fail if it doesn't find lame, --enable-libmp3lame is only for libavcodec
16:47<Cardoe>janneg: right but I don't need to pass that configure switch?
16:47<janneg>no, --enable-libmp3lame is not needed
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16:50<Cardoe>j-rod: I was trying to get g-l-p into Gentoo.. but it appears to require lircd 0.8.4... however there's no CVS snapshots that bill themselves as that and no releases by that version either..
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16:53<j-rod>Cardoe: we're doing it for fedora 10 w/0.8.3 + patches
16:54<Cardoe>can you guys push out a tarball called 0.8.4-pre1?
16:54<j-rod>I was actually just talking to christoph about getting something out ASAP, before I start committing anything back from git
16:55<j-rod>he has yet to reply
16:55<j-rod>but I'd expect a 0.8.4 relatively soon, if not a -pre1
16:55<abqjp>j-rod: using the fedora lirc patch works beautifully. Thanks.
16:56<j-rod>abqjp: cool, good to know. wonder what's horked in cvs though... :\
16:57<j-rod>the git tree has, um, diverged quite rapidly
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16:57<j-rod>janneg: that reminds me, christoph actually pinged me about whether or not I still thought it was worth trying to put everything back into cvs, I said no
16:58<superm1>j-rod, everything in the git tree has diverged, but still is compatible as you had mentioned the other day, correct?
16:58<Cardoe>superm1: you're the g-l-p guy no?
16:58<j-rod>superm1: yeah, still works w/0.8.3 userspace just fine
16:58<superm1>Cardoe, i've provided some input on it, and helped get it into Ubuntu, but i didn't write it
16:58<j-rod>except in the irrecord + lirc_serial and the lirc_i2c cases
16:59<superm1>j-rod, for those cases, do you have patches to point at on top of 0.8.3 userspace?
16:59<j-rod>fixing lirc_i2c is on my todo list, but I have some fun crypto and netlink shit I have to fix first for work... :\
16:59<superm1>or are they just "broke" right now?
16:59<Cardoe>j-rod: trying to get your lirc bits into Gentoo's kernel as well.
16:59<j-rod>superm1: just broke atm, but definitely high on the prio list for fixage
16:59<Cardoe>j-rod: you're still passing --enable-libfaad in your configure?
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16:59<j-rod>Cardoe: cool, thanks mucho
16:59<high-rez>damn all this talk about gentoo, i thought I was the only guy who was excited about waiting for things to compile. ;)
17:00<superm1>j-rod, ah okay. so long as it's just for irrecord though
17:00<j-rod>Cardoe: yes, still w/libfaad
17:00<j-rod>superm1: lirc_i2c is flat-out busted, doesn't receive, but I hope to have that fixed by the end of the week
17:01<j-rod>just a matter of some git bisection to do, it did work just a bit ago...
17:01<superm1>j-rod, okay well i'll keep any of this lirc stuff that i prepare in the ubuntu kernel tree from your git tree local until that's sorted
17:01<superm1>just in case something else comes up
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17:01<j-rod>ok, cool
17:01<j-rod>I should have commandir and imon hardware RSN for testing of those
17:02<j-rod>lirc_mceusb and lirc_mceusb2 are good to go
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17:02<superm1>you need commandir testing? it's supposed to be userspace now
17:02<superm1>(with the newer driver)
17:03<superm1>that driver is supposed to supersede the kernelspace one
17:03<j-rod>hm... which kernel one?
17:03<j-rod>there's lirc_cmdir.* and commandir.* in lirc cvs
17:03<superm1>okay then i'm going to poke the maintainer about those
17:03<j-rod>my understanding is that we do still need the resulting commandir.ko
17:04<superm1>it's supposed to be going away
17:04<j-rod>huh, ok
17:04<j-rod>I thought just lirc_cmdir was going to die
17:04<superm1>yeah he rewrote the entire driver to use userspace usb calls and both were supposed to die
17:04<j-rod>this is matthew bodkin you're talking about, no?
17:05<j-rod>hrm. his email to me from a week ago said "drop lirc_cmdir, include commandir", I thought...
17:05<superm1>maybe for compatibility with the older hardware?
17:05<superm1>i've only tested on the newer stuff
17:05<j-rod>could well be
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17:06<j-rod>he's on vacation this week, I'll ping him next week
17:08<superm1>at least for the testing packages i put together for him for the newer version i'm positive that i was blacklisting both. leave a note in #lirc when you find out what he says
17:17<janneg>Cardoe: --enable-libfaad should be enabled (iirc USE=faad is used)
17:18<Cardoe>janneg: I've got USE=aac but yeah
17:18<gbee>enabled by our configure, as the default? So it shouldn't be necessary to define it 'manually' ?
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17:23<Cardoe>gbee: the point is distros rarely want automagical depends
17:24<gbee>it's hardly automagical ...
17:26<Cardoe>if you have libfaad installed, it will link to it.
17:26<Cardoe>if you don't have it installed, it won't link to it.
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17:28<gbee>that's not what I'm talking about - I'm talking about our configure requiring libfaad by default and refusing to build without it, which is what it should do unless --disable-libfaad is used
17:28<gbee>I'm not saying that's the current behaviour, but that's what it should be doing
17:28<Cardoe>gbee: right. that'd I'd agree with
17:30<gbee>at no point should we be linking against libs 'automagically', I'm a little confused by that claim - even ffmpeg doesn't do that in my experience?
17:31<gbee>the configure script might automagically find installed libs, but it shouldn't be building with support for dynamic searching/linking at runtime
17:31<gbee>I'll defer to janneg on this subject though, he knows ffmpeg/configure far better than I do
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17:32<gbee>or maybe I'm just getting the wrong end of the stick ;)
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17:36<Thunder->so, whos working on porting myth frontend to the new neuros osd2? :)
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17:38<janneg>well, "linking" at runtime with dlopen is not a problem for distros if it is optional functionality
17:39<iamlindoro_>Thunder-: Blech, all the acceleration/capture is only up to 1024x768 @ 6 Mbit
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17:39<Thunder->iamlindoro_: thats ok, lock your hdpvr to 720p ;)
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17:39<janneg>dynamic linking to during build time to random libraries is a problem if the build enviroment has more libs than the runtime enviroment
17:39<iamlindoro_>Thunder-: at least the HD-PVR's 720p is 1280x720 and not 1024x768
17:40<gbee_confused>Neuros may be doing it themselves ...
17:40<iamlindoro_>Thunder-: which is *still* too much for the OSD 2, and at a horribly bitrate no less
17:40<iamlindoro_>er horrible
17:40<Thunder->iamlindoro_: hm the specs say it will do h.264 up to 720p @ 30fps decoding
17:40-!-gbee_confused is now known as gbee
17:40<iamlindoro_>Thunder-: Go to the dev specs page on their wiki, it is *highly* limited
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17:41<Thunder->iamlindoro_: damn. so there goes that idea of a nice fanless myth frontend for cheap
17:41<iamlindoro_>Thunder-: yeah, I was disappointed too :(
17:41<Thunder->back to reverse engineering the linux distro that runs on the popcorn hour
17:42<gbee>Thunder-: well not necessarily, as I said, we've had a graphic artist, contracted by Neuros, mentioning something about concept work involving mythfrontend
17:43<Thunder->gbee: right, but it wouldnt be able to play back hd stuff very well
17:43<gbee>if you want to speculate, that suggests they are considering a mythfrontend based device or similar
17:43<iamlindoro_>They themselves mentioned myth in their press info
17:43*Thunder- is all hdpvrs and hdhomerun
17:43<iamlindoro_>"Supplied with free "as in beer" codecs from TI that take advantage of the device's DSP (digital signal processor) core, the OSD2 can encode H.264 D1 resolution (DVD quality) video from an analog source, then upscale it for output at 1080i, or transcode it for viewing on a PMP (portable media player). "It could be a great $250 MythTV, recording video that looks great on a TV or an iPhone," Born said."
17:43<gbee>Thunder-: I assume if they are considering that then they are already thinking of solutions
17:44<iamlindoro_>Where Born == Neuros CEO
17:44<janneg>I think the beagleboard is supposed to playback at least 720p
17:44<Thunder->yeah, but he is talking about it being for capture
17:44<janneg>neuros might use the same chipset
17:45<iamlindoro_>It is *so close* to being something really great, but the low capture resolution/bitrate is a killer for me
17:45<Thunder->if only popcorn hour's firmware was open like neuros... bleeeh
17:45<iamlindoro_>1024x768 is *technically* a flavor of 720p but It's not the one people actually care about
17:46<iamlindoro_>and 6 Mbit, even at 1024x768, is likely to look pretty painful
17:47<iamlindoro_>If one wanted to use it just as a capture device, however, and wasn't scared off by the bitrate/res, it looks like they have VLC running on it already, so you could do the old "VLC as IPTV" thing to use it as a tuner with Myth
17:48<gbee>not very pretty though
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17:51<Thunder->supposedly popcorn hour is working on kexec support in their firmware, which would allow any linux kernel to run on it, which could lead to an awesome cheap myth frontend that can do 1080p h.264 etc
17:51<high-rez>ok wtf these libraries aren't strippbed but there are no debugging symbols :(
17:55<laga>Thunder-: once someone ports mythtv
17:55<Thunder->laga: exactly ;)
17:57<GreyFoxx>Welll and even more important they would need to release info on the decoder chips
17:57<GreyFoxx>otherwise it wont be too useful :)
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17:58<Thunder->GreyFoxx: once I can get strace and gdb running on it, it wont take long to figure that out
17:59<iamlindoro_>Thunder-: So that would allow one to take advantage of the hardware decode stuff as well?
17:59<iamlindoro_>oh, whoops, didn't read far enough
17:59<Thunder->iamlindoro_: maybe. probably throuhg a binary only library
17:59<iamlindoro_>I could live with that, I'm not OSS picky :)
18:00<Thunder->the video/dsp/thingy in the the popcorn hour will only run signed code, and I doubt they would give us source+crypto keys to talk to it directly
18:01<iamlindoro_>I can't recall, didn't one of the other DVRs have a port to the popcornhour?
18:01<iamlindoro_>Sage maybe, or Beyond?
18:01<Thunder->but the thing will play anything you throw at it without breaking a sweat, even 1080p h.264 super high profile mkvs
18:01<Thunder->not sage, sage has its own hd extender which is even better hardware wise
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18:03<Thunder->iamlindoro_: i bet beyond just uses the old hauppauge mediamvp like everyone has done
18:03<iamlindoro_>Naw, whoever it was, this was specifically a port to the PCH
18:03<iamlindoro_>Just can't recall
18:04<Thunder->interesting, id love to see that
18:06<GreyFoxx>If the popcorn hour could be made to run myth, and the internal player take advantage of the hardware decoders for the various common codecs I'd by one for my father
18:06<GreyFoxx>I'm was considering getting him one as a upnp player anyway
18:06<Thunder->I bet a lot of people would
18:06<iamlindoro_>I'd buy one for *me* :)
18:06<GreyFoxx>If it worked well I'd get one for myself as well
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18:08<GreyFoxx>my dad is currently using a dlink dsm320 in his living room and it kinda sucks :)
18:08<GreyFoxx>he wants another mythFE like he has for his basement :)
18:11<Thunder->if hes not doing hd, you could always use a mediamvp + mvpmc
18:11<Thunder->works great as a mythfe
18:12<GreyFoxx>he is doing hd, but currently I have myth transcode it down to something his dlink can handle
18:12<GreyFoxx> sold my mediamvp's a couple years ago to an excoworker who is using them :)
18:13<GreyFoxx>they were too limiting and when I switched to the msntv2's they were no longer used
18:13<sphery>Thunder-: did you see (didn't actually read it, so it may be useless, but I just happened to remember it)
18:13<GreyFoxx>the popcorn hour would be perfect for him
18:14<sphery>janneg: I thought I saw that the beagle board had a 24fps limit at HDTV res's...
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18:14<GreyFoxx>the beagle board does look nifty and alrady runs myth :)
18:17<Thunder->indeed, very
18:22<high-rez>oh what the hell the moment I get debugging symbols working the damned thing doesn't want to crash. pfft
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18:31<clever>most of my crashing is random so its hard to track down
18:32<Thunder->debugging symbols + coredumps enabled no help?
18:33<high-rez>they seem to be hindering me now ;)
18:33<high-rez>as soon as I got a build I know I can get a good stack trace out of as soon as it core dumps...
18:33<Thunder->that sticks of a race condition :(
18:33<high-rez>it doesn't want to core dump.
18:33<gbee>clever: backtraces would help, no matter how random
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18:34<clever>but if i cant attach when its crashing
18:34<gbee>entirely random and unexplainable crashes generally point to a build issue
18:34<clever>and i cant reproduce when gdb is going
18:34<clever>then its hard to get a backtrace in the first place
18:34<high-rez>it doesn't help that I'm not at console - doing everything using the network remote control port ;)
18:34<clever>one of my crashes
18:35<clever>disables all key based input
18:35<clever>keyboard and telnet control
18:35<clever>which makes it imposible to control until playback ends
18:35<high-rez>*my* crashes are all consistent as hell when I don't compile with debugging. :|
18:35<high-rez>and now they're just making me look like an ass.
18:35<clever>just run the debug 24/7 then
18:35<clever>thats what i do
18:35<clever>debug and core dumping are enabled on every system
18:36<clever>all going to /media/mainlv/cores/ which is nfs
18:36<clever>and the filenames point to the exact source
18:36<jams>maybe we should start taking donations to buy clever current hardware, so the old stuff can be retired.
18:36<clever>im working on phasing out my 133mhz system:P
18:38<iamlindoro>He will *still* use it to hold up a short chair leg
18:38<iamlindoro>and to make sure my children have permanent suntans
18:38<Thunder->take it out in the desert and shoot it with something :)
18:39<clever>i think my P4 beast is probly using more power then the 133mhz
18:40<high-rez>My frontend is a q6850 :)
18:41<clever>my main frontends are a 1.6ghz laptop and a 1.6ghz desktop
18:42<iamlindoro>You know, global warming is an aggregate effect
18:42<high-rez>i used to use a 1.5ghz amd athlon xp 1800+ - when I was doing only mpeg2.
18:42<iamlindoro>as in, who gives a rat what your 133 doesn't use much power when you use 17 of them?
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18:43<iamlindoro>You should limit your computer use to a single 15 AMP breaker, the end
18:43<clever>i had 3 systems running off a single socket thru a UPS for the longest while
18:43<clever>the ups started to kick out
18:43<clever>turns out i was melting the ground line
18:44<Thunder->single socket on the ups?
18:45<Thunder->interesting, those are usually 15 amp rated, must have been 3 power hungry machines ;)
18:45<clever>the ups has 4 outputs sockets
18:45<clever>but its all going to 1 socket in the wall
18:45<Thunder->15*120v should get you a max of 1800 watts draw before thing start melting ;)
18:46<Thunder->still.. interesting that something went wrong
18:46<clever>it was a thin jumper wire
18:46<gbee>guys, other channel please? :)
18:46<clever>the kind my dad would use as fuse's
18:46<Thunder->gbee: sorry :)
18:52<rage__>is there any fix for the "Prebuffer wait timed out 10 times" stuff that I've seen going on with quite a few people so says google? :P
18:52<high-rez>Do debug builds disable functionality or CPU optomizations ?
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18:53<clever>it will use more memory atleast
18:53<clever>and probly some more cpu power
18:54<high-rez>But for example, ssse3 usage won't be disabled ?
18:54<clever>though if your system can handle that, i dont see much reason to avoid it
18:54<clever>ive skimmed over that part of the code
18:54<clever>it still gets used
18:54<clever>but other optional parts would also be enabled and use more cpu
18:55<iamlindoro>Thunder-, looks like it was GBPVR I was thinking of
18:56<Thunder->iamlindoro: how the hell did they do that? (and how can i steal it to port mythfe to it)
18:56<iamlindoro>Thunder-, Good question :) Looks like they based it on the their MVP source, though
18:56<high-rez>shaweet got my segfault :)
18:56<Thunder->iamlindoro: yeah i see hauppauge protocol crap
18:58<iamlindoro>So looks like Myth playback may already be possible from a curcory read of that apge
18:58<iamlindoro>er page
18:58<iamlindoro>er cursory
18:58<Thunder->iamlindoro: is popcorn hour directly compatible with nmt firmware?
18:59<Thunder->i have actually tried mythfe on the old nmt.. crashy as hell
18:59<iamlindoro>Thunder-, I don't know
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19:03<gbee>nigel's not logging in before commenting on tickets or posting attachments, he'd racked up a karma of -5 off the back of 3/4 failed (spam blocked) submissions :D
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19:04<iamlindoro>Thunder-, would probably be the better starting point for Myth compat-- a different approach, and more up to date
19:04<iamlindoro>Also see for the GB-PVR installation guide
19:04<Thunder->iamlindoro: i think i just read the same thread
19:05<Thunder->wow, that would work with sagetv also
19:05<Thunder->very interesting.
19:07<iamlindoro>Looks like there's 1080p support as well, so that's neato
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21:24<rage__>is there any fix for the "Prebuffer wait timed out 10 times" stuff that I've seen going on with quite a few people so says google? :P
21:24<iamlindoro>see channel topic
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 18 00:00:16 2008