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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-04-21

---Logopened Sat Apr 21 00:00:57 2007
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02:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9706 /trunk/src/newgrf_town.cpp: -Codechange: Support NewGRF town var 40 'largertowns' variable properly.
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02:27<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9707 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_spritegroup.cpp newgrf_spritegroup.h): -Codechange: Add some support for NewGRF var 7D, temporary storage array.
02:28<peter1138>Town index (41)
02:28<peter1138>This returns the index of the town in the town array. This value is between 0 and 69 (inclusive)
02:28<peter1138>i think not :D
02:31<Rubidium>0 and 65535 ;)
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03:24<CIA-2>OpenTTD: KUDr * r9708 /branches/cpp_gui/ (168 files in 17 dirs): [cpp_gui] -Sync with trunk (r9633:9707)
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03:51<CIA-2>OpenTTD: maedhros * r9709 /trunk/src/newgrf_town.cpp: -Fix (r9706): Larger towns use t->larger_towns, not the town index.
03:51<Maedhros>sorry peter1138 ;)
03:51<Wolf01>SB(_transparent_opt, TO_START, TO_END, ~0) <- what deos mean the ~0?
03:54<Wolf01>(peter1138 will kill me)
03:55<maad>Wolf01: it's bitwise NOT
03:55<maad>so 0x00
03:55<maad>so ~0x00 == 0xFF
03:56<Wolf01>oh ok, it toggles all the bits
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04:15<ln->maad: how do you know it's only 0xFF, not 0xFFFF, or 0xFFFFFFFF?
04:21<Wolf01>in fact, that is a uint
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04:25<ln->yeah, so it is not 0xFF.
04:27<Wolf01>what bother is that it works in the same manner
04:32<HMage>it doesn't behave in the same manner
04:32<HMage>it doesn't always behave in the same manner*
04:33<Maedhros>in this case you're only using the first 6(?) bits of it, so it doesn't matter how big it is
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07:23<peter1138>Wolf01: why will i kill you?
07:24<peter1138>Maedhros: works better than before, either way ;-)
07:24<Maedhros>yup :)
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07:50[~]Maedhros resurrects his diagonal level crossings patch
07:54<Wolf01>[14:23:16] <peter1138> Wolf01: why will i kill you? <- because i'm always at work to extend the transparency options :D
07:56<sai>hey guys, is it at all possible to make good profit with buses in 1930 in the desert and the biggest cities with 300 inhabitants?
07:58<sai>my experience is, that there is no way at all to make money with buses or these transport trucks
07:58<sai>it is a pitty somehow, because why should I ever start to build buses or transporters, when they dont make profit?!
08:00<ln->to help people move from one place to another.
08:00<sai>yeah, ok, but I mean, you cannot do this very long when you run out of money
08:01<sai>a bus costs 15,000, and until the bus made 15,000 of profit, it will take 15 years. until then you have other costs for the depts you made and the maintenance costs
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08:05<Eddi|zuHause>usually, an inner-city bus service will help grow the city
08:07<sai>well, I have 2 buses now circulating between two cities in the desert
08:08<peter1138>don't start in the desert :)
08:08<sai>but the cities dont grow (probably because they need water and food), and the buses dont make profit
08:08<sai>well, its not that I start the game
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>start in the grassy areas
08:09<sai>so, basically there is no sense to start in the desert in 1930, because it is just not possible to make profit with buses, right?
08:10<peter1138>as you said, you need to supply the towns with other stuff to make them grow
08:10<sai>its just, it became boring starting too late (~1950 with trains) and to connect some coal mines with the power plant... after few years I am a millionaire
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>and especially use busses mostly inner city. it's much more likely to generate profit
08:10<sai>this is new to me, "inner city buses"...
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08:11<sai>but I will try that, thanks
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08:19<Eddi|zuHause>btw, i like the diagonal crossings, but they need some graphics that are compatible with the level crossings from the DBSet...
08:20<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9710 /trunk/ ( config.lib): -Add: added support for GCC 2.95. This makes MorphOS target alive again. With a big thanks to tokai and Rubidiumsvn status
08:20<CIA-2>OpenTTD: truelight * r9711 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix: don't include one system-header-file on MorphOS as it gives silly warnings and is unneeded for OpenTTD
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>and they should invoke all parallel crossings simultaneously (also for normal crossings)
08:20<Maedhros>Eddi|zuHause: it'll be possiblet to change the graphics via newgrf
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>"svn status"? i don't suppose that belongs there
08:21<Maedhros>activating all parallel crossings will be a lot more work though
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, you have code for activating adjacent diagonal level crossings anyway
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>just needs to be extended properly
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08:23<Eddi|zuHause>this would also solve the problem when two trains are on the same diagonal crossing, where not all crossings get disabled properly
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if you fixed that since the miniin patch
08:24<Maedhros>i haven't touched it properly for quite a while
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08:43<UndernotBuilder>which is the feature that is being worked now for trunk?
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08:51<Eddi|zuHause>"the" feature??
08:51<UndernotBuilder>I mean in what feature are working the devs now
08:52<UndernotBuilder>or features :)
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08:53<UndernotBuilder>and a question: is there a extended changelog to download?
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>read the previous commit messages, you might get some estimation that way
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>"svn log"
08:54<UndernotBuilder>-Feature: Increase cargo types from 12 to 32 and enable newcargo flag in NewGRF
08:54<UndernotBuilder>is that a preparative to newcargos?
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08:58<UndernotBuilder>how do I filter the results by features (I use <command> | find "Feature:" in m$ batchfiles but which is the equivalent in cygwin?
08:58<Maedhros>svn log | grep 'Feature:'
09:00<peter1138>some features sneak in under other terms
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09:48<peter1138>whoever cleaned up the transparency gui broke the transmitter button, heh
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10:13<Wolf01>peter1138, for (uint i = TTW_WIDGET_START; i < TTW_WIDGET_END; i++) { is <= not < :)
10:14<Wolf01>oh, maybe you are still using TTW_WIDGET_SIGN and TTW_WIDGET_STRUCTURES
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10:33<neli>when can we have signals on bridges ?
10:33[~]neli has a very long queue in front of a bridge where trains also need to climb
10:34<Tefad>i think it's signals under bridges
10:34[~]Tefad shrugs
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>neli: when you program full flexible bridges
10:35<Tefad>i usually build a little island or similar to build one signal on when there's a queue
10:35<neli>Tefad: it's primarily the climb
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>neli: partial solution: build 2 bridges next to each other, so the trains can choose the free bridge
10:36<neli>maybe I can build two bridges so that two trains can climb paralelly
10:36<Tefad>so build two bridges and distribute them with a presignal block?
10:36<neli>right ;)
10:36<Tefad>man, it's been ages since i've played ottd
10:37<neli>it's quite a complicated crossing already, amongst housing :-S
10:37<neli>no free space
10:38<Tefad>well done
10:38<Tefad>tunnel it then?
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10:44<neli>ok made something
10:44<UndernotBuilder>Newcargos peter1138 Finished In Nightlies since r9638, 2007-04-15
10:44<UndernotBuilder>is that right? :O
10:44<neli>presignals do not 'look' at the tracks ?
10:45<neli>just 'touchingness', not connectedness
10:46<UndernotBuilder>!openttd revision 9638
10:46<UndernotBuilder>how is it?
10:46<UndernotBuilder>!openttd rev 9638
10:47<UndernotBuilder>!openttd 9638
10:48<UndernotBuilder>I can't find it
10:48<+glx>!openttd commit 6938
10:48<_42_>Commit by Darkvater :: r6938 /trunk/ (gfx.c misc_gui.c order_gui.c) (2006-10-24 23:11:40 UTC)
10:48<_42_>-Codechange: Comments, typo, variable naming, whitespace, strecpy and simplification
10:48<_42_> of order_gui (only disable a single widget if not local player, all others aren't
10:48<_42_> visible anyways).
10:48<+glx>!openttd commit 9638
10:48<_42_>Commit by peter1138 :: r9638 /trunk/src/ (6 files) (2007-04-15 16:20:35 UTC)
10:48<_42_>-Feature: Increase cargo types from 12 to 32 and enable newcargo flag in NewGRF loader.
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>newcargo is finished, but there is no use for it without newindustries
10:50<UndernotBuilder>for changing acceptance of current industries?
10:51<UndernotBuilder>!openttd commit latest
10:51<+glx>without latest :)
10:51<UndernotBuilder>just a test
10:51<UndernotBuilder>!openttd commit 10000
10:51<UndernotBuilder>that neither
10:51<+glx>doesn't exist
10:52<UndernotBuilder>I tested that
10:52<UndernotBuilder>but is near :)
10:52<+glx>we have a smart bot :)
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11:00<peter1138>so did i miss any commits?
11:00<peter1138>hmm, no :(
11:00[~]peter1138 sneezes loudly, instead
11:01[~]mggrant saw one by peter1138 ;)
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11:02<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i opened my last savegame (1 month ago), and immediately got a headache: Transporte,%2020.%20Okt%201925.png
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>grr, missed a space
11:04<neli>trains often seem to choose the 'wrong route' for me :(
11:05<neli>they choose to go through a station pre-signal block
11:05<neli>instead of the 'regular' non-station route
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>wrong signalling, i suppose
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>pathfinder setting?
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>you should enable YAPF for trains
11:06<neli>I'm using YAPF
11:08<neli>grrr deadlocked
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>so, where's the screenshot?
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11:10<neli>need to wait for it to happen
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11:12<Maedhros>hmm. all i have to do now is fight with (de)activating both halves of the crossing at once
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11:15<neli>the light green train is now using the purple route, while it should have chosen the light pink/orange one
11:16<neli>using pink will not need to wait for trains loading at chartfingbourne (pre-signal block there)
11:16<peter1138>neli: probably a high tunnel penalty
11:17<neli>hmm the tunnel is very short
11:17<peter1138>i don't see a tunnel penalty anyway :o
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say a red signal penalty
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11:18<Eddi|zuHause>if the signal on the first right turn is red, the train will go straight on
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11:19<Eddi|zuHause>solution would be, to remove the straight on route completely
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>so the train has no choice anymore
11:19<neli>but trains need to be able to go to the top station
11:19<neli>(chartfingbourne, name not visible I see now)
11:20<neli>oh you mean they can go down and up again, anyway
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>but you could move the transition from the right track to the left station track 1 tile, so the train can not turn around there anymore
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>could get signalling problems then, but your junction has strange signalling anyway :p
11:21<neli>move 1 tile in what direction ?
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>towards the bridge
11:23<neli>then I also need to move the pre-signal
11:23<neli>but there is a merge before the bridge
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, then make two entry signals
11:24<neli>can make both those pre-signals
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>what use has that 2 way signal behind the depot?
11:25<neli>trains can go from depot onto bridge
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's a weird junction :p
11:26<neli>why ? :)
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>lots of very sharp turns
11:27<neli>I could move the depot back one tile, so those two sharp bends will be gone
11:27<neli>if that makes you feel better ;)
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>look at my screenshot, no diagonal section is shorter than 3 tiles
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>ok, it's cheating, because it uses PBS, but...
11:28<Tefad>that color is peach btw
11:30<neli>Eddi|zuHause: my layouts tend to 'origanically grow' ;-)
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>origamically? :p
11:30<neli>what's the advantage of longer diagonal sections ?
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>trains do not slow down that much
11:31<neli>some trains are on the same track
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>of course, that depends on "realistic acceleration"
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, PBS are cool :)
11:32<neli>then you don't need as much bridges and tunnels and stuff either
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that is not the point
11:33<neli>does PBS work reliably ?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>no :)
11:34<neli>then I missed the point a bit I'm afraid
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>you have to be careful
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few situations where they do not work, so you have to avoid those
11:34<neli>trains crash into each other sometimes ?
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes, especially if you a) force them through a signal, b) mess with the signal block and c) they reverse without proper exit signal
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11:36<Eddi|zuHause>but like i said, the point was not about pbs, it was about longer diagonal sections
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>which will naturally mean larger junctions, and you might be low on space...
11:37<neli>my junctions tend to be quite cramped
11:37<neli>growing cities etc.
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>but you will have more places to put signals on
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11:38<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. on your current junction you have tracks that are in the same signal block, but they do not really meet each other
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11:38<neli>yes that's annoying
11:39<neli>PBS would solve that, no ?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, PBS should solve that
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>bridges over everything might also help your junction
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>only there is no version of OTTD that has both features :)
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>but there is a bridge patch for MiniIN
11:42<neli>your Kreuzstadt station has some tracks reversed direction ?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>each track can be entered from one side, and exited in both
11:43<neli>oh, you allow trains to reverse at stations ?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>PBS does not support real 2-way stations
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's a vital component of my network ;)
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>a train can enter each second track
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>,%204.%20Sep%201925.png <- a less crowded station
11:46<neli>you never have deadlock problems with these many junctions ?
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>i do have deadlock problems, but more because of the long trains
11:48<neli>if I don't build bridges to keep the 'main line' free, then exiting trains will get caught up with incoming ones
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11:49<neli>I usually allow trains to arrive from two directions and leave in two directions
11:51<Wolf01>[18:43:32] <Eddi|zuHause> PBS does not support real 2-way stations
11:51<Wolf01>neither presignals, but they are still here
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>btw. some of my trains are 15 tiles long
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i did not say that was the reason why they were not included
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>but that is the reasoning behind my signalling
11:54<neli>Eddi|zuHause: the things highlighted in light green I cannot allow, I have to build bridges or tunnels for those
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>i know... that is the main reason why i use PBS
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>or, one of the main reasons
11:55<neli>I can imagine :)
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>the other reason is intelligent presignalling on single-track sections
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>btw, the lowest one is on a dead end station, you have those, too :)
11:56<Thomas[NL]>Are PBS like signals used in real-life?
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>they are supposed to come close to that, Thomas[NL]
11:57<neli>oh, I couldn't see it was end-of-line
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>you can check out the miniin and try them, but that version is not going to be in the main OTTD version
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, of course you couldn't, that's why i told you :p
11:58<neli>btw, what's the reason for the (c) disadvantage you listed above: 'they reverse without proper exit signal' ?
11:58<neli>ok :)
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's very technical
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>if a train cannot find a way to an exit signal, it cannot reserve a path
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>so when the train reverses (due to long waiting, for example)
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>and it came through a one way signal
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>it cannot reserve a path through that signal
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>so it does not reserve a path at all
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>so other trains view the track as empty
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's a misdesign
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>and the main rejection reason
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>because it causes crashes without user interference
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12:01<Eddi|zuHause>ln-: err... i had a mouse loooong before i have seen my first windows
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>and that looks like an apple computer, btw :)
12:02<neli>the picture has a mac lol
12:02<ln->indeed, and all other sources tend to say that it was apple that first introduced the mouse to consumers.
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12:03<Maedhros>ah, but that's not what the caption says ;)
12:03<neli>Eddi|zuHause: but shouldn't the train stop at the one-way signal then ?
12:03<neli>or do other trains run into this signal block
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>neli: the train will stop, but other trains do not know the train is there, and enter the block
12:04<neli>when reversing it can at least reserve until the one-way signal ?
12:04<neli>that should prevent a crash
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, it should, but it was not designed that way
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>reserved paths have to end on an exit signal
12:05<neli>or, don't allow trains to reverse :)
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>btw. the other main rejection reason was that the code is very ugly, and not maintainable, so nobody really tried to fix these problems
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>there is a new PBS attempt planned, but it's gonna take some time to do properly
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>and it is planned from scratch, not trying to fix this failed PBS attempt
12:07<neli>does MiniIN use the same PBS code ?
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>MiniIN uses the old PBS code
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>with some minor fixes
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>mainly conflicts with other patches, like realistic acceleration and diagonal crossings
12:14<neli>diagonal crossings as in, crossings of roads and tracks ?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>remember, most patches in the MiniIN have some quirks
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>and multiplayer is probably unplayable
12:16<neli>do you have your own combination of sources, to be able to play PBS ?
12:16<neli>is realistic acceleration a net speed gain for trains ?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>i have miniin, together with a personal patch for bridges over everything
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>realistic acceleration adds support for tractive effort
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>and some other acceleration changes in sharp curves and slopes
12:18<neli>'tractive effort' ?
12:18<Maedhros>tractive effort is in trunk as well
12:18<Maedhros>and possibly the 0.5 releases too, but i'm not sure about that
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure either...
12:19|-|HMage [~HMage@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>apply if you are feeling brave :)
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>brb bbq
12:22<graeme>do tilting trains get a speed boost on corners in openttd?
12:23<Maedhros>no, not at the moment
12:24<graeme>ahh thought not
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12:45<Eddi|zuHause>,%201.%20Sep%201924.png <- another big station
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13:05<UnderBuilder>now the request is.... newindustries :]
13:06|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
13:06<Digitalfox[Home]>UnderBuilder: If we send a milion dollars to belugas, he will be fast ;)
13:07|-|Twofish [~Twofish@] has joined #openttd
13:07<UnderBuilder>but there is a question... is really complete newcargos? because it was released too fast :S
13:08<UnderBuilder>or someone bribed peter1138?
13:08<Digitalfox[Home]>Well for what i understand it's finished, but peter1138 will be the best person to answer that
13:09|-|scia [~scia@] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
13:11<TrueBrain>we lately get large bribes, so if you want something done, feel free to send one too :p :p :p
13:12<Wolf01>i want a bride instead :P
13:13<peter1138>UnderBuilder: if it's 'too fast' because we've been working on it for a few months, then i don't know what 'too slow' would be
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13:22<UnderBuilder>but newcargos (NOT newindustries) is fullworking or only partially?
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13:28<Thomas[NL]>it says Finished in the roadmap so I presume it is
13:32<neli>Eddi|zuHause: your cities seem kinda boring :P
13:32<neli>quite repetitive buildings
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's 1925, and only the standard buildings
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>there are like 5 available
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13:37<neli>in what year did you start ?
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>1920, but with daylength x32
13:42<neli>aha is it configurable
13:42<neli>a day takes only 2 seconds here or so
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and with this setting, a day lasts as long as a month would in a normal game
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>so 5 years time would actually be 60 years in a normal game
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>that is wrong
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>5 years => 160 years
13:45<neli>what's the speed in the original ttd ?
13:46<neli>my feeling says it's faster in openttd
13:46<Maedhros>74 * 27 microseconds in TTD, 74 * 30 microseconds in openttd
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know, but there was a difference between TTD[P] and OTTD, i believe
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>see, OTTD is actually slower :)
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13:49<Wolf01>i wanted to make the daylength more configurable, without the "xMULTIPLIER" and with "## seconds|minutes|hours" and the last "daylength 1:1"
13:50<Wolf01>but i abandoned the patch when i knew that a daylength will be in the gamebalanche
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13:52<UnderBuilder><EddizuHause> 1920, but with daylength x32
13:53<UnderBuilder>so you use mini in
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i said that before
13:54<peter1138>no newhouses ;(
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>you can't have everything :p
13:55<peter1138>you can!
13:55<peter1138>play ttdpatch :D
13:56<Wolf01>no big maps!
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>i can't customise that...
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>and i can live without newhouses...
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>i could use trams and passenger destinations though...
14:00|-|helb [~helb@] has quit [Quit: Logout]
14:02<peter1138>there's a fat old lady outside the saloon
14:03<peter1138>laying out the credit cards she plays fortune
14:03<+michi_cc>Rubidium: here you go: 5ccba7e9c033f175addacaf97b49e7c0
14:04<+michi_cc>Rubidium: I was successfully distracted by work from actually reading irc :)
14:10<Maedhros>night all
14:10|-|Maedhros [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:10<@Belugas>[14:21] <UnderBuilder> but newcargos (NOT newindustries) is fullworking or only partially?<---- fully working. Just that right now, it does not do very much.
14:11<@Belugas>if you look at the sources, you will see
14:11<@Belugas>and on this happy note, i resume gardening
14:11<@Belugas>21 celcius!
14:11<@Belugas>heavan :D
14:12<peter1138>i just did a little
14:12<@Belugas>also will be the beer afterward :D
14:12<peter1138>exactly :D
14:12<@Belugas>enjoy, i am gone ;)
14:14<UnderBuilder>I better test a grf that adds a new cargo but no a industry
14:15<peter1138>ukrsi works
14:15<peter1138>industries are ignored, of course
14:15<peter1138>george's ecs stuff only works with the newindustry flag set (which is hardcoded to off at the moment)
14:16<peter1138>michael blunck's newcargo grf works too
14:22<peter1138>but it's not like i haven't tested it ;p
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14:30<peter1138>and a voice called out
14:30[~]Wolf01 dies
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14:43<neli>if a station reaches out to two cities, will it get cargo from both ?
14:44<peter1138>stations get cargo from the area they cover, not from the city
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14:45<neli>hmm, so 'max' passengers in a city is if you would cover the whole city ?
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14:46<peter1138>can he fail, armed with his chocolate surprise?
14:46<Rubidium>fail in what?
14:46<peter1138>it's just the size of the city
14:47<peter1138>Rubidium, sleeping with Juliet
14:48<neli>so the houses outside the coverage area don't generate cargo for that station ?
14:48<peter1138>neli: correct
14:48<neli>so two stations in a large city, with their coverage area not overlapping will never compete for passengers ?
14:49<peter1138>also correct
14:49<neli>thanks that clears up
14:54<Wolf01>and if you put 2 piece of the same station with the station walking in way to have the city into a big square where the station tiles are the non-adjacent corners you can gather passengers from the entire city
14:55<peter1138>i don't belong here, said old tessa out loud
14:56<neli>follow the track stupid presignal! :(
14:56<Wolf01>they can't be stupid, they are mathematically correct
14:57<Wolf01>so there is a user error :P
14:57<neli>or the mathematical rules are wrong
14:57<peter1138>signals only care about connections, not paths
15:00<neli>moving a station one square to make space is NP hard
15:01<neli>city rebuilds before I can put it back
15:01<Wolf01>that's why exist the purchase land tool
15:01<+glx>use shortcuts
15:01<neli>even shortcuts are too slow
15:02<+glx>destroy, pause, choose the tool, place the cursor, unpause, build
15:02|-|tsimpa [] has joined #openttd
15:03<tsimpa>first time here
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>better than no first time at all :p
15:05<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: come in on your second?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>err... no comment :p
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15:12<dihedral>have a q
15:12<dihedral>for curiosity
15:13<dihedral>*out of
15:13<dihedral>when trying to fund a water tower (tropical)
15:13<dihedral>what are the requirements?
15:13<tsimpa>enough money?
15:13<Sacro>dihedral: 3 legs
15:14<Sacro>otherwise it'll fall over
15:14<dihedral>thanks - very helpful :-P
15:14<dihedral>it sais "site unsuitable"
15:14<+glx>try on a house
15:15<dihedral>now that would be odd ... or not?
15:16<tsimpa>how long are your typical rail lines?
15:16<tsimpa>on a 512x512 map, is it good idea to transfer from one end to another?
15:19<neli>the farther the more profit, usually
15:19<peter1138>depends how you want to play :)
15:19<neli>if sufficiently fast
15:21<tsimpa>so depends on stage?
15:21<tsimpa>i have monorails, fast as hell
15:21<tsimpa>bad thing is, that there is not much production - gold
15:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9712 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Implement accepted cargo types and cargo acceptance (there is a difference) callbacks for newhouses.
15:26<dihedral>i do transfer from one corner to the other
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15:27<dihedral>well... not transfer - deliver would be a more suitable word
15:28<dihedral>still think that it is odd having to click on a house to build a water tower...
15:29<neli>do you have to build stations adjacent to have them being connected ?
15:29<neli>or is there some way to combine two stations without them being adjacent
15:30<Wolf01>there's a patch
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15:34<Eddi|zuHause>or, you have to build station tiles in between, and remove them afterwards
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15:35<Thomas[NL]>you have to remove one station first, if they are already build
15:47<Wolf01>i'm thinking about activating the invisible trees with the transparency gui, what do you think about ctrl+click on the transparent tree widget?
15:48<Wolf01>(it'll draw also a X on the widget if the invisible trees is enabled, waiting for a new button graphic)
15:50<Wolf01>or maybe a red/green circle like the vehicle stopped/running "led"
15:51<peter1138>that's a flag
15:52<Wolf01>and where i've seen that?
15:52<Wolf01>i don't remember
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15:53<Wolf01>maybe ttdpatch newgrfs
15:53<Wolf01>or the profit circle in vehicles list
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15:59<neli>hehe factory is producing 1800 crates of goods/month
15:59<neli>I'm not keeping up, how strange
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16:03<Eddi|zuHause>hm, my factory is only producing 17000 per month
16:03<Wolf01>my 198 crates per month
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>and even worse, i am only transporting 32%
16:06|-|Ammlller [] has joined #openttd
16:06<Wolf01>i'm transporting nothing, only delivering
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16:08<neli>4000 crates of goods on station :)
16:09<tsimpa>neli are you estonian?
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16:09<neli>no, why?
16:09<tsimpa>because its an estonian word
16:10<tsimpa>my oil refinery and printing words create 1000 crates of goods combined
16:10<tsimpa>and food processor gives 2500 tons of wood
16:12<tsimpa>how does the train weight affect train speed?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>not speed, acceleration
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16:13<Eddi|zuHause>F = m*a
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>so, if F is constant, and m rises, a falls
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause>that combined with F = P/v gives you an idea, how acceleration works
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>P is the power of the engine, v is the current speed, m is the weight of the train
16:17<tsimpa>i have master degree in physics
16:17<tsimpa>but in game, the weight affect top speed
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>the weight only affects top speed if the power of the engine is low
16:18<tsimpa>engine top speed is 336 kmh
16:18<tsimpa>my trains go at ~200 kmh
16:18<peter1138>then there is not enough power
16:18|-|tokai|ni [] has joined #openttd
16:19<tsimpa>maybe i have overloaded?
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>try to add another engine
16:19<tsimpa>train has 662 tons of paper payload, and its speed is 215
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>speed is also affected by curves and slopes
16:20|-|lolman [] has joined #openttd
16:21<tsimpa>its a straight line, and no acceleration
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16:24<Eddi|zuHause>with low power, the train reaches its max speed, when the resulting force just suffices to balance out the friction
16:24|-|lolman [] has joined #openttd
16:24<Wolf01>i still can't understand how to calculate the max weight for a train from the max tractive effort
16:25<tsimpa>this seems to be solution, but where is the top speed algorithm :)
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'd start searching at the TrainController function
16:26<peter1138>top speed is just a limit
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16:28<Eddi|zuHause>that picture looks wrong...
16:28<peter1138>it is based on the ancient handling
16:28<Thomas[NL]>the wiki says: Also, second engines can only subtract from the total speed, not add to it., shouldn't total speed be max speed?
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i thought multiheaded engines could not be separated anymore
16:29<Rubidium>Thomas[NL]: what they mean is that the maximum speed is the lowest maximum speed of all wagons/engines
16:30<Thomas[NL]>Ok, that's what I meant.
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16:36<tsimpa>i found this from google
16:36<+glx>that's for ttdp
16:37<tsimpa>doesnt apply for openttd?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably implemented differently
16:37<tsimpa>Fnet = TEeffective - c0 * W - c1 * W * v - c2 * v2 - Fincl
16:37<+glx>TE is not used in OpenTTD yet IIRC
16:38<tsimpa>if the c0, c1 and c2 would be known, then the top speed could be calculated...
16:38|-|DJ_Mirage [] has quit [Quit:]
16:39<tsimpa>so is there any article about ottd physics formulas?
16:39<Wolf01>in fact you can't
16:39<Wolf01>stupid mirc
16:41<neli>F = P/v ?
16:42<peter1138>glx: only since r7592
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>!openttd commit 7592
16:43<_42_>Commit by peter1138 :: r7592 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs) (2006-12-28 13:18:07 UTC)
16:43<_42_>-Feature: Add support for tractive effort to 'realistic' acceleration.
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>i have only seen that physics patch that was floating around, and it was very underdocumented
16:45|-|Osai [] has joined #openttd
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16:47<Sacro>ZOMG peter1138!!!
16:48<Sacro>oh... tis an old commit *hides*
16:48<peter1138>yes, you hide
16:48<peter1138>i shall carry on playing with nars :D
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>i successfully got Sacro confused :p
16:48<peter1138>with running sounds
16:49<peter1138>hmm, i need more passenger carriages
16:49<peter1138>or maybe another train
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17:01<neli>I'd say from a certain speed, air friction is a much larger than rolling resistance
17:02<neli>so weight doesn't matter anymore as much
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>air friction should only really matter with speeds > 200km/h
17:08<tsimpa>i read from forum postings, that the answer should be in the sourcecode:
17:09<+glx>every answer are in the source :)
17:09<tsimpa>line 87 "GetRealisticAcceleration" of train_cmd.c.
17:09<tsimpa>can anyone say whats in there?
17:09<peter1138>line 87 is blank :D
17:09<tsimpa>well, its rather old reference :)
17:10<+glx>train_cmd.c is old
17:10<+glx>all files are .cpp now
17:10<tsimpa> Jul 05, 2004 :)
17:10<peter1138>GetRealisticAcceleration is the old one, heh
17:10<peter1138>which no longer exists
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17:10<tsimpa>okay, whats the new formula of "realistic acceleration"?
17:11<peter1138>it's at train_cmd.cpp:289
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>like i said previously, i would start searching from TrainController
17:11|-|welterde [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>the acceleration function is probably called directly from there
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17:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i have only connected like 15% of my map, and the game already chokes
17:13<tsimpa>hmm, you suggest me downloading the source code :)
17:13<peter1138>well it helps
17:13<peter1138>this function is ~ 140 lines
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>the source code used to be viewable from the website, but that was disabled due to performance issues, i believe
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17:40[~]lolman wishes someone would update the PKGBUILD for openttd on Arch :-\
17:42<lolman>I've just had to hack one together from the 0.5.0 one
17:44<Sacro>lolman: who maintains it?
17:45<lolman>Sacro, a guy called vegai
17:45<Sacro>ill see if he is on freenode
17:45<lolman>He is
17:45<lolman>Dunno if he's away tho
17:45<Sacro>lolman: i messaged him
17:45<lolman>I saw
17:46<Sacro>ooh your on freenode
17:46<lolman>He's been idle for nearly 3 hours
17:46<Sacro>hopefully he will get the message on his return
17:47<lolman>My hack didn't work, data files went to the wrong place
17:47<Sacro>whoo, im logged into AUR
17:47<Sacro>now, shall i create a new pkgbui;d
17:47<Sacro>i actually had my package for on sourceforge
17:48<lolman>Right, think I've got it now :)
17:49<Sacro>sling us a pkgbuild when your done
17:49<lolman>If it works sure :P
17:49<Sacro>though i could do it myself
17:50|-|Thomas[NL] [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:50<lolman>Hmm it's trying to use my home folder, that's why it won't work :)
17:51<Sacro>for what?
17:51<lolman>Data files :S
17:51<Sacro>do you have a usb mouse?
17:52<Sacro>can you do an "lsmod" and tell me what module it uses
17:52<lolman>I'm using evdev for it :)
17:53<lolman>(Has 7 buttons so standard mouse isn't up to it)
17:53<Sacro>cos i can get my synaptics pad to work
17:53<Sacro>but not a usb mouse
17:53<lolman>What model mouse?
17:54<Sacro>just a trust one
17:54<Sacro>god this pkgbuild is HORRIBLE
17:54<lolman>The openttd one? Tell me bout it
17:55<Sacro>i think it may have previously installed to /opt/openttd/openttd
17:56<Sacro>oh god... it did
17:56<Sacro>official openttd radio :p
17:57<Sacro>guru3: yeah, done by people in #tycoon on
17:57<guru3>what does the official openttd radio play?
17:57<Sacro>hosted by orudge
17:57<Sacro>guru3: depends whose djing
17:57<guru3>it is ttd related right?
17:57<lolman>uhm, nothing here
17:58<Sacro>guru3: it can be yesy
17:58<guru3>nope it's not atm -_-
17:58<Sacro>someone is on now
17:58<Sacro>playing Weird Al
17:58<guru3>it's vaugely computer related at least
17:58<Sacro>oh yes
17:59<Sacro>lolman: PKGBUILD rewrite in progress...
17:59<guru3>guess i'll listen to this for a bit and go back to coding
18:00<Sacro>guru3: its good music to work/code to
18:00<guru3>i dunno, i'm not so thrilled atm
18:02<Sacro>anyone here interested in SimSig?
18:04<guru3>no clue what it is
18:05<lolman>Hmm that station isn't working :-\
18:05<+glx>lolman: open it in vlc
18:06<lolman>If I could be bothered installing vlc, sure! :P
18:07<Sacro>lolman: what are you opening it in?
18:07<lolman>Sacro, tried xmms and banshee
18:07<lolman>And yes I have the codecs :P
18:07<+glx>you need a player that can work on streams
18:07<Sacro>lolman: should work in xxms
18:07<Sacro>add as a url
18:07<lolman>Have done
18:07<lolman>vlc fails to play it too
18:08<lolman>Aha, there it is :)
18:08<lolman>Bout time
18:08<lolman>Now, if only I could code...haha
18:09<lolman>Still haven't been bothered to go learn
18:10<lolman>I was thinking maybe learn python :P
18:11<guru3>haha xD
18:12<lolman>What's so funny bout that? LOL
18:12<guru3>because syntax wise python is really different from everyother language
18:13<lolman>Well what would you suggest as a beginners language?
18:14<guru3>i'd suggest you don't learn programming for the sake of programming. find something you want to program, even if it's just a cheap card game and go from there
18:14<lolman>guru3, I'm not on about _what_ to program, I'm about what to program stuff _in_
18:14<guru3>i know, but if you go with that method it doesn't matter
18:15<guru3>half of programming is know what to look for and what to put where
18:15<guru3>if you can master that any language is a step away
18:15<Sacro>grrm my laptop has lost a sticky foot
18:16<guru3>damn i hate it when that happens
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18:16<guru3>'this song is a request of myself'
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>the programming language really does not matter, the abstract features of most languages are the same, they just have different names
18:19|-|UnderBuilder [~chatzilla@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>there are like 3 different approaches to programming languages: imperative, functional and object oriented
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18:20<Eddi|zuHause>imperative is probably the easiest
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and for beginners, pascal-like languages are often recommended
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>C has too many obscure "features"
18:23<guru3>listening to the stream? 'yell'
18:23<guru3>what the hell? IT'S CRY
18:23<Sacro>guru3: indeed...
18:23<Sacro>he's a swede
18:23<Sacro>he has no idea :p
18:23<guru3>"It's my party and I'll cry if I want to"
18:23<Sacro>orudge still owes me the pound i won
18:23<guru3>basic knowledge to me tho -_-
18:24<guru3>my dad always had oldies radio on in the car
18:24<@orudge>Sacro: TT meet
18:24<Sacro>lolman! come to the tt-meet in june!
18:24<guru3>June? Where?
18:25<lolman>Sacro, what dates, and where?
18:25<Sacro>guru3: june everywhere :p
18:25<Sacro>june err... 30th i think
18:25<guru3>damn, I'll be back in sweden then
18:25<lolman>30th? Brum? Hrm
18:26<lolman>Aye, I'm up for that!
18:26<guru3>i'm finally living in the uk, and the good shit happens when i'll be back home -_-
18:26<lolman>I'll just need to get money together :)
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18:28<Sacro>well its about £25 in train fares for me
18:29<lolman>Feckin ell it's expensive for me
18:29<Sacro>aren't you nearer?
18:30<lolman>Yeah...but it's like 40 quid :O
18:30<Sacro>click the button for cheaper fares :)
18:30<lolman>Cheapest I've found...
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18:31<Sacro>nah, go on
18:31<Sacro>mine where £59
18:31<Sacro>got em down to £12.50 x2 singles
18:32<lolman>I looked, the dirt cheap singles aren't available
18:32<lolman>Ah :)
18:32[~]lolman reads the page properlt
18:32<lolman>If I order the tickets day before I travel it'll be £18
18:33<guru3>i've got a student card
18:33<guru3>but i won't be in the damn country on the 30th
18:34<Sacro>guru3: shame that
18:34<lolman>BTW Sacro, would it be better staying in Brum overnight on the day before so I don't have to get up at like 5am?
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>i'm gonna fly over for 200€ :p
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18:34<guru3>wow, that's dedication
18:34<Sacro>lolman: 5am?
18:34<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: really?
18:34<lolman>Sacro, well, call it 6
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>no :p
18:35<Sacro>lolman: im leaving at 9
18:35<Sacro>getting into brum for half 12
18:35<guru3>... .. ... ..
18:35<Sacro>i checked flying
18:35<lolman>I was thinking get to Brun for about 10 :P
18:35<Sacro>but i go Humberside - Amsterdam - Dublin - Birmingham
18:35<guru3>the stream is not broadcasting! D:
18:35<Sacro>he finished :(
18:35[~]Sacro could dj
18:36<guru3>hour and a half train ride for me to biriming ham
18:36<lolman>My shortest is 1:40
18:36<guru3>would cost me like 18 pounds to get there
18:37<lolman>One thing I'm worried about is not recognising anyone
18:37<guru3>no use looking at it tho, know i can't make it :/
18:37<Sacro>me, orudge
18:38[~]orudge shall be getting the train
18:38<lolman>Sacro, I mean that when I get to the place I'll be thinking "who the hell are these people?"
18:39<Sacro>lolman: so will i :)
18:39<lolman>Might have to make a badge with my name on :D
18:39<lolman>(IRC nick of course)
18:40<Sacro>ooh, 1 listener
18:40[~]lolman is said listenet
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18:42<guru3>i was listening
18:42<guru3>then it was looping the it's not playing thing
18:42<guru3>so i stopped -_-
18:42<Sacro>and now i am djing
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm. a flight Leipzig - Frankfurt - Birmingham (and back) would cost 276€
18:43<lolman>Ouch Eddi
18:44<lolman>Sacro, how's that PKGBUILD coming along?
18:44<Sacro>lolman: hmm, im rewriting from scratch
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>but flying friday and sunday would probably be the most expensive days :p
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18:45<lolman>Probably Eddi :P
18:46<Sacro>it configures...
18:46<Sacro>does it make
18:46<Sacro>grr :(
18:46<lolman>Sacro, the hack I had compiled just didn't put stuff in the right place
18:46<Sacro>lolman: this one does things properley
18:46<Sacro>then i shall submit to AUE
18:47<Sacro>i wonder where you define MAKEOPTS
18:48[~]lolman swigs Dandelion and Burdock while Sacro finishes the PKGBUILD
18:49<Sacro>need /usr/bin
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>wtf? 1300€? are they flying via new york??
18:50<lolman>That's a bit over the odds
18:50<lolman>I could get to Australia and back on that
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18:52<Sacro>lolman: testing...
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>hm. no... it's the same route... Leipzig - Frankfurt - Birmingham
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>just the 2nd flight is with british airways, instead of lufthansa
18:53<lolman>Sacro, here's hoping
18:53<Sacro>lolman: it builds fine, its just remembering what stuff to put into the package after
18:53<lolman>Sacro, aah
18:54<Sacro>openttd, data/*, lang/*.lng
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>it gets better... 3000€
18:54<lolman>Eddi|zuHause, first class?
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>"Economy", whatever that is
18:54<lolman>Sacro, nice music btw
18:55<lolman>Eddi|zuHause, economy and it's 3k? WTF
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>Leipzig - Frankfurt - Zurich - Birmingham, with SWISS
18:55<Sacro>lolman: binary goes... but nothing else
18:55<lolman>Sacro, ack
18:56<lolman>Eddi|zuHause, still shouldn't be 3k
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18:58<Sacro>lolman: testing in progress
18:58<lolman>Sacro, okies :)
18:59<Sacro>failed :(
18:59<lolman>Damn :(
18:59<lolman>Send what you have now?
18:59<Sacro>not much there really
18:59<lolman>Maybe I can hack it together :P
18:59<Sacro>just a ./configure && make
18:59<Sacro>i think it needs some sed magic
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>the railway site does not tell prices :(
19:03[~]Belugas feels like he's going to work on rail costs
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>if i tell it "only local trains" it takes 30 hours :p
19:04<@Belugas>not tonight, not tomorrow,
19:04<@Belugas>but maybe soon
19:05<Sacro>lolman: i hacked around
19:05<lolman>Sacro, it works?
19:05<Sacro>hopefully the makefile is happy
19:06[~]Sacro needs to add more musics
19:06<lolman>Sacro, it's good music
19:07[~]Belugas will deintoxicate in his bed
19:07[~]Belugas goes poouf!
19:07<lolman>Night Belugas, if you're going
19:08<Sacro>lolman: im in a rock mood
19:08<lolman>Sacro, I can tell :)
19:08<Sacro>i need a drink
19:08<Sacro>but i have nothing but fresh orange
19:09<Sacro>and i have a lack of toilet paper
19:09[~]lolman has some Dandelion 'n' Burdock here to keep him ticking
19:09<Sacro>i dunno what to od :(
19:10<lolman>Just reminded self, need to install webcam drivers :)
19:10<Sacro>oh aye ;0
19:11<lolman>Never use it, but it's useful to have there
19:11<Sacro>think i sorted it
19:11<Sacro>MAKE INSTALL=1 needs setting
19:12<Sacro>any more troubles and i'll prod the debian maintainer
19:12<Sacro>with no hacky sed
19:13<Sacro>grr :(
19:13<Sacro>cannae find the grfs
19:13<lolman>That's the trouble I had, was chucking them in the home folder instead of where they should have been
19:14<lolman>Damn this reminds me of last summer
19:15<lolman>sitting in here all night :P
19:15<Sacro>what does?
19:15<lolman>Just beng in here regularly again
19:15<Sacro>ah yes
19:15<Sacro>i love it in here
19:15<Sacro>and on #tycoon ;)
19:15<lolman>I enjoyed last summer, was awesome
19:16<Sacro>you are indeed severley badgered
19:16<Sacro>and is ./configure even used
19:17<Sacro>blathijs: you around?
19:17[~]Sacro pokes the debian maintainer for help
19:18<Sacro>make INSTALL=1 PREFIX=/usr BINARY_DIR=bin ICON_DIR=share/pixmaps DATADIR=share/openttd PERSONAL_DIR=.openttd USE_HOMEDIR=1
19:18<Sacro>should work
19:19<Sacro>maybe i have to prefix with / as well
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19:20<lolman>Hmm maybe
19:20<lolman>Actually, no
19:20<lolman>I tried, it just added another slash to the path it tried to use
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19:24<Sacro>ah ha
19:24<Sacro>put DATADIR instead of DATA_DIR
19:28<Sacro>whoah, mad moment there
19:28<Sacro>right, now to upload to AUR
19:29<lolman>Yay :)
19:29[~]Sacro wants to become the official ArchLinux maintainer
19:30[~]lolman would vote for Sacro if he had an account
19:33<lolman>Got it :)
19:33<lolman>Making now
19:34<Sacro>its got rid of those horrible sed hacks on the makefile
19:36<Sacro>lolman: it doesn't move the manpage :(
19:36|-|Sacro|Laptop [~Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:36<lolman>Least of my worries :)
19:37<Sacro>that can be fixed though i think
19:37<Sacro>X appears to be borked
19:38<Sacro>or gnome
19:38<lolman>Dunno why lol
19:39<Sacro>me neither
19:39<Sacro>hmm, cba with manpage
19:42<lolman>Gonna spectate an online game to keep me ticking for a bit :P
19:42<Sacro>gonna reup the PKGBUILD
19:42<Sacro>with fixed manpage
19:42<lolman>Okies :)
19:43<Sacro>just mv $startdir/pkg/usr/openttd/docs/openttd.6 $startdir/pkg/usr/man/man6
19:43<lolman>Just dump it at the end?
19:43<Ammler>Hi, does someone of you know the dest_pax patch command?
19:44<Ammler>to switch it on over console
19:46<lolman>Sacro, thanks for the PKGBUILD :)
19:49<Sacro>lolman: still can't get the manpage going
19:49<lolman>And one question: have you bothered trying to get graphical bootup working?
19:49<Sacro>but everything else seems to work
19:49<Sacro>im using gensplash currently
19:49<Sacro>and grub-gfx
19:49[~]lolman doesn't understand the wiki page for some reason
19:50<Sacro>setup ssh and ill get it going :p
19:50<lolman>Gimme a minute then :)
19:51<lolman>Any groups the user needs to be in?
19:51<lolman>In fact...PM ;)
19:52<Sacro>i see no PM
19:52<lolman>Hang on, I'm sending it now :P
19:54<+glx>Ammler: try list_patches to get it's name
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20:21<lolman>There, working :)
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 22 00:00:38 2007