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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-05-08

---Logopened Tue May 08 00:00:09 2007
---Daychanged Tue May 08 2007
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00:41<TheJosh>Hey all!
00:46<TheJosh>how are various peoples in this virtual room going?
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01:55<boekabart_>good morning, europe
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03:30<boekabart1>high level remark!
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03:31<boekabart_>did I join twice now?
03:31<boekabart1>apparently, weird?
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03:32<peter1138>yes indeed
03:32<peter1138>so rivers & waterlevels...
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03:33<boekabart_>so how do I make the server recognize+accept my nick without manually having to "/msg nickServ identify" ?
03:33<boekabart_>this client doesn't seem to support startup scripts
03:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9813 /trunk/src/ (engine.h table/engines.h): -Fix (r9799): wagons must have EC_STEAM, otherwise they don't show up in the purchase list (mart3p).
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04:00<boekabart_>Is there a way to let the IRC server 'recognise' me by IP address?
04:03<peter1138>probably msg nickserv with help...
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04:13<boekabart>CPU: 1 x Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.80GHz @ 2793 MHZ (x86 Family 15 Model 2 Stepping 9), 0 kb Cache
04:13<boekabart>wtf did I click!?
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04:14<ln->do you have hyperthreading too?
04:14<boekabart>my boss was too cheap for that
04:15<boekabart>but i do have cache more than 0kb i'm sure :)
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04:27<boekabart>nick boekabart_
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04:29<boekabart>irc is driving me insane
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04:31<boekabart>irc is driving me crazy
04:32<TrueBrain>you us too ;)
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04:33<boekabart>as what user@host did i log on now?
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04:40<boekabart_>when that ^^ ~boekabart@ is on the access list, you're supposed to be recognized automatically, right!?
04:41<Sacro>me? no...
04:41<Sacro>i'm Sacro
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04:44<peter1138>might have to drop the ~
04:44<peter1138>but i don't know
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04:55<boekabart_>got it to work. just added *@my_ip :)
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05:52<berger>i have a quick TTD newbie question regarding Depots
05:53<berger>when building one-way tracks
05:53<berger>yet you need a depot
05:53<berger>and using signals
05:53<berger>is there any way of stopping the train from travelling in the "wrong" direction when it leaves the depot
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05:55<Patrick>hook up the depot so that trains can go both ways
05:55<Patrick>if you build it next to track it should just d it
05:56<boekabart>berger: i suppose you don't want to just put 1 way signals on the main track just before and after the depot, because that's the easiest way to do it
05:57<berger>yeah i have done that Patrick but occasionally they come out and go anti clock instead of clockwise if you see what i mean
05:57<boekabart>if you don't want that, build the depot 1 tile away from the main line (or more), connect it with 2 '45 degree' tracks and put the 1-way signals on those connectors
05:58<berger>ok boekabart ill try that thanks :)
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06:16<Patrick>that's because the pathfinder is confused
06:21<Eddi|zuHause2>it takes a lot to confuse the pathfinder nowadays
06:22<Eddi|zuHause2>so there might be a deeper problem with your layout
06:52<boekabart>fancy :)
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06:53<SpComb>I'm not a bot, there's no need to query me :<
06:56<boekabart>so who is this !logs bot then ;)
06:56<SpComb>well, I just have my client set to respond to them, and it also does the logs for the origional logs site. SpBot does the new one
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07:15<lolman>Ooh my PC at home's fallen over obviously
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07:33<TheJosh>hi all
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07:55<RobertGrammig>somebody in a thread claimed that the wealth of a city determines the amount of citizens at stations. is there any documentation on how this wealth value is calculated, and on the factors affecting it? cant find anything in the wiki
07:57<boekabart>afaik it's only calculated from the houses in the catchment area
07:58<boekabart>city isn't so much of an entity, it a 'point' that counts all the buildings around it to figure out its population
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07:59<RobertGrammig>so scia is just wrong about the current development nightlies?
08:01<boekabart>i don't know what he means by rich
08:02<boekabart>is he talking about a specific branch?
08:02<RobertGrammig>to me it sounds like he is referring to the plain nightlies... probably just confusing rich with populated
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09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r9814 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Fix (r1): Remove the duplicate sign sprite from openttd.grf since it's in the original data files.
09:41<hylje>omg, r1 fix
09:42<peter1138>happens sometimes ;p
09:42<ln->what's r1?
09:42<peter1138>i did one the other day
09:42<peter1138>r1 is the dawn of time
09:42<peter1138>nothing exists before r1
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09:47<ln->that's so not true.
09:48<ln->svn's revision numbering starts from zero.
09:48<peter1138>but at 0, there is nothing
09:48<peter1138>everything pops into existence at 1
09:49<hylje>it would be silly to have everything pop into existence at 2
09:50<DaleStan>But actually, there were over 900 revisions before r1.
09:50<hylje>would those be r-899..r0 ?
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09:52<ln->DaleStan: we all believe that OpenTTD was created at r1 by a supernatural force, and there was nothing before that.
09:53<hylje>intelligent design at its finest
09:53<DaleStan>!openttd commit 1
09:53<DaleStan>Those would be r1..r975. The old SVN server crashed.
09:53<_42_>Commit by truelight :: r1 /trunk/ (200 files in 10 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
09:53<_42_>Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
09:54<hylje>!openttd commit 9025
09:55<_42_>Commit by celestar :: r9025 /branches/gamebalance/ (1035 files in 34 dirs) (2007-03-06 15:09:50 UTC)
09:55<_42_>[gamebalance] -Branch: Created a branch for rebalancing the economic aspects game
09:56<Patrick>ironic for the 10,000th revision
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09:58<DaleStan>Wow. Only 200 files. It's now 529 files in trunk alone.
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10:00<peter1138>1035 si wrong, heh
10:01<DorpsGek>glx: Commit by celestar :: r9025 branches/gamebalance/ (2007-03-06 15:09:50 UTC)
10:01<DorpsGek>glx: [gamebalance] -Branch: Created a branch for rebalancing the economic aspects game
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10:01<glx>and this bot doesn't count
10:02<hylje>my svn bot counts, but it isnt configurable and only listens to commits :\
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10:09<@Belugas>Is there anyone with ttdpatch working? i would like to have a screenshot of the Industry funding window with ukrsi installed, and only ukrsi
10:09<@Belugas>would be appreciated :)
10:12<Maedhros>i'll fire up dosbox
10:13<Maedhros>shame it's too slow to play a proper game with though :(
10:15<peter1138>heh, same here
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10:16<Maedhros>Belugas: here you go -
10:19<@Belugas>can you show me the first part of the window too?
10:19<@Belugas>if it's not too much to ask...
10:20<Maedhros>how do you mean, the first part?
10:20<@Belugas>looking at the scroll bar, i see the end of the list
10:20<@Belugas>therefor, i can guess there are some more industries at the top of the list
10:21<Maedhros>s/,,/ ok/
10:23<peter1138>hmm, boring ;p
10:24<@Belugas>not for me :D
10:24<@Belugas>although i know what it means...
10:24<@Belugas>comparaison of behaviours,
10:24<@Belugas>debug and tralalal
10:25<@Belugas>thanks a lot Maedhros
10:25<peter1138>can we have a preview? ;)
10:25<Maedhros>no problem Belugas
10:25<@Belugas>and from what i can see, it is not exactly what's expected
10:26<Maedhros>feh, my house smells of fish :(
10:26<peter1138>what's the problem with it?
10:27<peter1138>apart from shuffle
10:27<@Belugas>shuffle is one, wrong strings used
10:28<@Belugas>this is an old screeni
10:28<@Belugas>it should look better now, but i'
10:28<@Belugas>ve not really worked on it lately
10:29<@Belugas>Maedhros : real house or newhouses? :D
10:31<@Belugas>i wonder if the slot in which the new industry is located would matter during callbacks and all
10:32<@Belugas>that is my biggest fear right now
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10:40<@Belugas>and it seems i don't have brick works
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10:40<@Belugas>and food processiong plant does not show
10:41<@Belugas>although i recall seeing it ingame
10:41<@Belugas>it could be SHUFFLE, though
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10:42<@Belugas>hey guys! look! there is egladil :)
10:42<@Belugas>hello egladil
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11:37<SpComb>failure, I restarted postgres and naturally SpBot died
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11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9815 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix (r9761) [FS#769): transfers weren't accounted in the vehicle profits.
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11:48<Thomas[NL]>hmm, TTRS3, are "old" roads supposed to be converted to those "New" roads after 1970 OR should roads build after 1970 be new-roads. And OTTD does not support this? Or is it intended to be the way it is now in OTTD (roads depend on start-date)?
11:48<glx>Thomas[NL]: depends on current date when the grf is loaded
11:49<Thomas[NL]>Is this a limitation of ottd or the grf?
11:49<glx>the grf
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11:49<Thomas[NL]>ok thank you :)
11:49<Thomas[NL]>I love those new roads but I don't want to start past 1970 :(
11:50<Rubidium>save and reload in 1970 ;)
11:50<glx>use the right param
11:50<boekabart>or edit the grf
11:51<glx>hmm there isn't a param to force the road
11:51<Patrick>or use the cheats
11:53<Thomas[NL]>But I don't want the new buildings...
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11:59<Maedhros>there is a param for which buildings get built :)
12:00<glx>but he wants buildings of all eras with modern roads
12:02<Wolf01>Maedhros! Adjoin?
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12:03<Maedhros>Wolf01: sorry, it's mindless tv time again ;)
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12:04<Wolf01>this night i might have a wii-party, so i don't know if i can help you, if you might need my help :P
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12:05<Wolf01>(is the most number of *ght sentence i ever wrote!)
12:09<Maedhros>back, briefly
12:09<Maedhros>the problem i have is with the user interface, not the code...
12:10<Maedhros>if ctrl should always build a new station, how do you extend a station so it adjoins others?
12:10<Wolf01>what's the problem?
12:10<Maedhros>or build over an existing station if it touches a different one
12:10<Wolf01>that's a problem
12:11<Wolf01>the only way is to have the distant join code, which allows you to do it veeery easily
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12:13<dihedral>hey there
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13:31<Wolf01>boekabart, what about the rivers patch?
13:31<boekabart>have not yet had time to test the grf
13:32<boekabart>it's actually not a rivers patch, it's a higher sea level patch that was modified a bit to support rivers too
13:32<boekabart>but they are controversial in the current implementation: flooding risk is huge
13:33<@Belugas>leads to a new industry type : rice culture ;)
13:34<Wolf01>maybe, i can suggest you this: let the water start to flow in a random direction where it can, and continue to flow in the same direction until it find an obstacle
13:34<boekabart>as i said before, i've been playing with another approach (for both), but it's graphically even more challenging
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13:36<Wolf01>this will make straight rivers of water in a plateau, but with some "noise" you can do some realistic rivers
13:37<Bjarni><Belugas> leads to a new industry type : rice culture ;) <-- that would be a natural followup on the Japanese and Chinese translations ;)
13:38<boekabart>I'll post some shots of what I have tomorrow
13:41<@Belugas>Bjarni : good one :)
13:42<peter1138>boekabart: graphically isn't a problem
13:42<boekabart>it is
13:42<boekabart>because water tiles raise single pixels
13:42<boekabart>imagine a coast..
13:42<peter1138>ok, it is :p
13:42<boekabart>coasts are the most tricky
13:42<peter1138>but it's not insurmountable
13:42<peter1138>just need different sprites for each level
13:42<peter1138>but that's only 8 for each type
13:43<peter1138>only... heh
13:43<boekabart>the 1 pixel diff in height can be done by drawing an edge around it like it's done for slopes with something built on it
13:44<Wolf01>peter1138, i was reading boekabart blog: "Peter1138 added the transaparent water option, so you can see how deep the sea is. In the 32bpp version, we can make the water surface semi-transparent I guess." why not also in 8bpp? you can make houses and trees transparent, tiles could be transparent too
13:44<boekabart>but to convert all coasts to straight 'quays' ...
13:44<peter1138>Wolf01: it looks shit
13:44<Wolf01>oh, that's why
13:45<boekabart>Wolf01: there is a conversion palette for 'transparant' and it is not pretty for water
13:45<Eddi|zuHause2>for transparent water, you should have sea-ground sprites that are dark blue
13:45<peter1138>we can add a palette map for it
13:45<boekabart>i'm for ;)
13:45<peter1138>but... you need gridlines on the surface for it to look good
13:46<peter1138>boekabart: we need a lot of sprites for this waterlevel, but is that a big issue?
13:46<boekabart>well no
13:47<boekabart>i'll post shots tomorrow morning (CET) so everyone can see what we are talking about.
13:47<peter1138>hmm, we'll need corner flooding too
13:49<boekabart>but now, i'm going to play Kardinal & Konig on BrettSpielWelt with some old friends. that's what we do all tuesdays...
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13:59<peter1138>19:55 < patchbot> SVN commit: r1549 by eis_os (2 files in trunk/patches/): added initial code for rivers in the canals code.
13:59<peter1138>we've been beaten :p
14:00<Eddi|zuHause2>they probably have been spying on us, and copied our feature :)
14:00<Bjarni>they do that from time to time
14:00<Bjarni>they copied my autoreplace idea, yet not the GUI
14:01<Bjarni>they still lack the ability to have two horizontal scrollbars :p
14:01<Maedhros>it's only fair, given the number of patch features we've 'appropriated' :)
14:02<peter1138>yeah, but now they've done it first, therefore we'll be 'copying' them again ;p
14:03<Bjarni>we never copy anything
14:03<Bjarni>we just brainstorm and figure out nice features and then we code them
14:03<Rubidium>we 'improve' them?
14:03<Bjarni>the fact that somebody else thought about it too has nothing to do with it
14:04<Bjarni>everything we do is an improvement over the patch because it runs natively on my computer ;)
14:05<Sacro|Laptop>but does it run linux?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause2>there is a big difference about two people separately developing an idea, or one person picking up an idea from someone else (and then implementing it differently)
14:06<Zuu>What's most important here is not if it run on Linux or not but that it run on Bjarni's computer. :)
14:07<Zuu>So a version that run of a bootable memory stick would also be fine :)
14:08<Bjarni>I didn't say that :p
14:08<Bjarni>because then I would lack IRC
14:09<SpComb> <-- follow this conversation in real-time with three-second granularity :P
14:11<SpComb>as in, it now updates itself
14:12<peter1138><meta http-equiv="refresh"...
14:12<SpComb>no, it's XHR
14:12<peter1138>but damn, grey on black sucks for reading
14:12<SpComb>default irssi theme, you can change it
14:13<SpComb>Preferences -> Theme -> irssi_plain or even mirc
14:13<peter1138>such a small window though :p
14:13<SpComb>small in width or height?
14:13<peter1138>and width
14:13<SpComb>"Show more lines"
14:13<peter1138>the text around it is fucking massive
14:14<Bjarni>why should we waste bandwidth on both using IRC and watch this homepage?
14:14<peter1138>but the text of irc is tiny
14:14<SpComb>width should be as wide as fits in your browser, although perhaps it's a fixed width
14:14<peter1138>there're two huge grey borders
14:14<peter1138>plus the menu on the left...
14:14<Sacro|Laptop>nicklist doesn't work
14:14<Sacro|Laptop>argh, 5 mins of battery
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14:17<peter1138>by "tiny" i mean normal sized, of course
14:24<SpComb>and in what way does the nicklist not work?
14:24<SpComb>what's your resolution?
14:24<peter1138>mine? 1280x960
14:24<SpComb>there's not really any technical limitation on the width of it, but currently I think it's expressed as a percentage
14:25<SpComb>width: 80%;
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14:31<Bjarni>Sacro_: did you find a spare battery?
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14:35<Bjarni>I guess not
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14:50<Phazorx>how new town roads work again ?
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14:51<@Belugas>Phazorx : you set the layout you want towns to have and you watch them laying them
14:52<@Belugas>unless there is something else?
14:52<Phazorx>Belugas: does it affect growth only or initial generation as well ?
14:52<Phazorx>is there a wiki page?
14:54<@Belugas>dunno about wiki. does not affect town growth, just how the roads are traced when town expand :)
14:54<Desolator>is teh guy who made BuildOTTD here?
14:55|-|Maedhros [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:55<Desolator>I wanted to tell him that I made a better installer without using MSI
14:55<Phazorx>Belugas: that's what imeant by growth
14:55<boekabart>in his face!!
14:56<Phazorx>so, Belugas, the settings are for future expansion as the game goes, doe not affect generator?
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14:58<peter1138>it will slightly, as the position of roads affects town growth, but not a lot
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14:58<Phazorx>peter1138: i'm not implying growth of population... only geometrical size and structure of roads
14:58<peter1138>best bet: test it
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14:59<Phazorx>basicaly downtown is screewed up as generator sets it but from that point it will be structured
14:59<Phazorx>peter1138: trying to figure out how to get it working 1st
15:02<Phazorx>oh... it's a patch in game option
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15:02<Phazorx>nm... i was thinking it's config option w/o interface
15:02<@Belugas>Phazorx : Easy. Before generating a game, go to Configure patches, section construction. Choose the proper town-layout (default,better roads etc) and then genreate new game
15:03<Phazorx>Belugas: figured out already thanks
15:04<Phazorx>unrelated question - "when dragging place signals every ... "
15:04<Phazorx>having it set to 2 - it works on straights
15:04<Phazorx>but for diagonals it places lighs every 3rd half tile
15:04<Phazorx>hance it's more like 1.5tiles
15:05<Phazorx>i guess since train sace same way - it doesnt matter
15:05<Phazorx>but when dragged for short distances - terminating lights are not set and can create halftile gaps :/
15:06<Phazorx>and if anyone cares - patch affects generator too
15:07<Eddi|zuHause2>the generator is just supposed to run the town growth function a few times
15:09<Phazorx>i wonder if it possible to synch the grids of nearby towns :)
15:09<Phazorx>at generathion time that is
15:09<boekabart>some magnetics in it?
15:10<peter1138>"I made an installer for this which is much better than your MSI Installer" < desolator's modest..
15:10<Phazorx>yeah, heh
15:10<Phazorx>it might look ugly as nerby towns grow to have paralele roads going on next tiles
15:13<boekabart>that's actually easy
15:13<boekabart>never extend a road if it's parallel to another?
15:14<boekabart>or: when it comes next to another road (from another town?), connect them which will stop the expanding
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15:15<Phazorx>sounds like an idea for RFP
15:15<Patrick>what is the grid centered relative to?
15:15<Patrick>only ever grid on odd-numbered tiles
15:15<Phazorx>cuz it isnt so now
15:15<Patrick>or whatevers' necessary
15:19<Patrick>yeah, that's a mess
15:20<@Belugas>new town replacment :)
15:20<@Belugas>didn't though people were still using it
15:21<Phazorx>i kinda like it
15:22<@Belugas>you're entitled to it :)
15:22<@Belugas>it's just that i did it so long ago...
15:22<@Belugas>though it was not used anymore
15:22<Phazorx>well thanks and it's cool :)
15:23<peter1138>fucking lag, stops ^U working properly :/
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15:25<Phazorx>since there are some grf developers here - are there any cars/wagons only sets ?
15:25<Phazorx>which can be used as an addition to engines sets ?
15:25<Phazorx>or as a replacement for standard ones
15:25<peter1138>cargoset, i think
15:25<peter1138>old though
15:26<peter1138>probably doesn't play well with engine sets, either
15:26<Phazorx>i tried including it after train set - and it got a bit messy
15:27<Phazorx>but that's a trainsets problems i guess
15:27<Phazorx>would be nice to have a 'engines' and 'cars' bits
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15:35<Bulb>Hello Folks,
15:36<Bulb>I am currently sketching some small fixes in the aircraft handling and want to ask.
15:36<Bulb>What do you think about speed of broken-down aircraft?
15:38<ln->well above zero
15:38<Bulb>The current value is 320km/h. That feels way too slow (It's 170ktas, which for larger aircraft would mean flaps down)
15:38<Phazorx>i guess point of speed reduction is to introdice delays - instead i'd rather see mandatory landing on closest port
15:38<Phazorx>or faling down if there is none :)
15:39<ln->and priority given to the broken one
15:39<Phazorx>that's harder tho
15:39<Phazorx>going to land off course is hard too
15:40<Phazorx>as well as having "range" which is currently abcent unfortunatelly :(
15:40<Bulb>Well, I'd love to see 'has to land within 100 squares or crashes' as well.
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15:40<Phazorx>configurable range :)
15:40<Bulb>However, it's really hard to do.
15:40<Phazorx>Bulb: find aiport in rnage or fall down now is easier
15:41<Phazorx>assuming there is range as property
15:41<Bulb>A quick improvement would be what (if I understood one post in the forum) TTDP does -- the speed is reduced to 5/8.
15:41<Phazorx>that's still ugly
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15:42<Phazorx>my point was - havining wange broadens variety of used aircrafts
15:42<Phazorx>wange = range
15:42<Bulb>Does anybody remember what is the original speed of broken down aircraft (at least roughly, asi it didn't have speed readout) in OTTD?
15:42<Phazorx>and also can be used to determine broken travel distance
15:42<Phazorx>that's TTDs
15:44<Bulb>Phazorx, no, 1/4th was the conversion from displayed speed to in-game speed. The broken-down speed was constant, because being broken down had no effect on helicopters.
15:44<Bulb>(making it feasible to operate a helicopter with 1% reliability, which was in turn necessary because there were no helicopters at all available towards end of the game)
15:44<Phazorx>ahh sorry missed the broken part :)
15:45<Phazorx>80 mph
15:46<Bulb>In the "displayed" or "real" units?
15:47<Phazorx>in google :)
15:48<Phazorx>i'd say in displayed
15:48<Phazorx>cuz i recall busses passing early planes :)
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15:48<Bulb>Hm, because it does not match my experience with it. Helicopters flew more than 80mph and did not slow down.
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15:49<Bulb>Well, the early planes were flying about 90mph real. ... um, and the broken-down speed was a little less than that, so it might actually have been 80mph real.
15:51<Bulb>That is 320mph displayed. So I'll raise it to 320mph (from 320km/h) in my simple patch and post that patch and than try looking into the land-or-crash. Hm, I am not sure how to give broken-down aircraft priority yet. Maybe CobraA1 will work out his airplane queueing patch and that will support it.
15:51<boekabart>can't a broken airplane do an emergency landing on a road nearby?
15:51<Phazorx>Bulb: i dont think queueing is necessary
15:52<Phazorx>boekabart: finding road is more challenging that airport
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15:52<boekabart>or field then
15:52<Phazorx>not to mention all associated with landing and taking off
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15:52<Phazorx>that's a bit much :)
15:52<boekabart>well.. what happens in real life? Just make sure the aircraft is 100% always maintained....
15:53<Phazorx>TTD is not quite real life
15:53<boekabart>ha, true
15:53<Bulb>No, aircraft has to land on an airport, because they could not repair it elsewhere.
15:53<boekabart>ah and a train is repaired on the middle of the rails?
15:53<Phazorx>Bulb: is implementing range for aircraft with refit options challenging?
15:53<boekabart>so let the plane hang still in the air when broken down. make a ladder come out of it so the engineers can climb up there :)
15:54<boekabart>okok, had a beer too much... i'll try speaking again tomorrow.... night
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15:56<Bulb>Well, having aircraft requiring to land within some distance or crash would have definitely add to the challenge. Because you could not simply put two airports at oposite ends of the map, you would have to build some emergency landing points in between too.
15:57<Phazorx>yup, here is use for small airports
15:58<Phazorx>also - regular flight range is sometihng that will add variety
15:58<Bulb>Another option is to make aircraft slow down as they do now and have them land at closest airport (but not limiting how far that would be), because that fixes tham.
15:58<Phazorx>and will make planes networks more star based
15:59<Bulb>Well, large aircraft will often crash on small airports, so you can't really use tham.
15:59<Phazorx>i can't say it fixes the issue - planes still gets to destination relatively fast and delivers passengirs
15:59<Phazorx>well that can be controlled as well
15:59<Phazorx>and crashing plane should only crash due to range :)
15:59<@Belugas>night all
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16:00<Patrick>how about:
16:00<Patrick>the longer the aircraft's journey, the smaller the capacity and the higher the running costs
16:00<Patrick>more fuel, less pax
16:01<Patrick>don't worry about keeping tabs on it per-mile or anything
16:01<Bulb>Aircraft are relatively fast. But their running costs should be so high (hint -- there is one line change missing to make newgrf aircraft sets aware of the bigger speed), that aircraft must actually be always full and not wait too long to land to be profitable.
16:01<Patrick>or else congestion would kill your planes
16:02<Bulb>Yeah. Another thing would be passenger destinations.
16:02<Phazorx>Patrick: any plane has different range depending on load
16:02<Bulb>(But I have to say I don't like the way they are proposed on the forum currently)
16:02<Phazorx>more kerosine = less cargo, more range = more kerosin
16:03<Bulb>I would like passenger destinations, where more people would be interested in closer locations and less in further ones. So there would not be so many passengers that would want to fly.
16:04<Phazorx>i'm not sure if i like that aspect - biger location should have priority
16:04<Phazorx>rather than closer
16:04<Phazorx>i haqve no desire fly where i can drive
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16:04<Bulb>My idea is, that each passenger would also generate a 'negative passenger' and the system would somehow match them up.
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16:04<ln->should the planes also be made dump fuel if they need to land sooner than expected?
16:05<Bulb>And the matching would be done so that the probability to match closer points would be higher.
16:05<Phazorx>in that is taken care by maintance fees
16:05<Touqen>ln-: That seems unnecessarily realisitic.
16:05<Phazorx>fuel price is part of that
16:05<Bulb>So more passengers to closer destinations and more passengers to bigger destinations (they generate more so they accept more)
16:05<Phazorx>Bulb: that is not very neccessary and ratehr hard
16:06<Phazorx>if you have passengeer generation proporcional to town size - that would require shuttle services
16:06<Phazorx>and terminals
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16:06<Phazorx>so you would collect passengeers to same big city
16:06<Bulb>Phazorx: There are different ways to generate the passenger destinations and the choice has huge impact on the gameplay.
16:06<Phazorx>from few local towns somewhere and these use big aircraft to get them there
16:07<Eddi|zuHause2>aircraft running costs increase with the time they spend continuously in the air, that could be interesting
16:07<Phazorx>Bulb: totaly agree... size based aproach seems to be less challenging to implement tho
16:07<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: fees are per time
16:07<Phazorx>more flight = more time = more cost
16:08<Phazorx>that si taken care of aside of proportions
16:08<Eddi|zuHause2>but the aircraft range thing... should not lead to crashes, only prevent assigning orders for far away airports
16:08<Phazorx>what i'd like is if that 747 is hauling 150t - it goes 200tiles
16:08<Phazorx>if 100 - 300
16:08<Phazorx>and so on
16:08<Phazorx>with option to refit
16:09<Phazorx>so you would have to use 767 for long range
16:09<Bulb>Well, you have to somehow select the station. And selecting it so, that for each station you have number how many passengers it wants and selecting random station that wants passengers might be reasonably simple.
16:10<Phazorx>Bulb: from what i gather you want to generate 2 passengeers every time goign in opposite directions ?
16:10<Bulb>Phazorx: No.
16:11<Bulb>I want to generate some passengers, some 'negative passengers' using the same algorithm and match them up in a random fashion.
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16:11<Phazorx>define negative passengers ?
16:11<Eddi|zuHause2>Bulb: that does not make sense
16:11<Touqen>What exactly is the purpose of the negative passengers?
16:12<Bulb>It's like electricity. You have electrons and holes. And electrons move to the holes.
16:12<Bulb>The passenger is a source and "negative passenger" is a destination for one passenger.
16:12<Phazorx>you have a concept involving something and abcence of that something
16:13<Phazorx>electrons are just a nomination defined as "what we use for that something" holes is absece of that something
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16:14<Phazorx>same with positive/negative signs... someone just desided that soemthing will be negatove and be called "electron"
16:14<Phazorx>"hole" is that sometihng being missing somewhere rather than a phisical object
16:15<Eddi|zuHause2>still, what is the sense in aspect of passengers?
16:15<Bulb>Yes. And in the same way "negative passenger" is something missing somewhere (somebody not being there).
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16:15<Phazorx>aside of that i'm still not getting if a negative passenger a passenger or soemthing else
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16:15<Phazorx>Bulb: so is negatove passenger is it's destination then ?
16:15<Bulb>And the (real) passenger wants to "fill in" that "negative passenger", which means travel there.
16:16<Bulb>Yes. "negative passenger" is a destination.
16:16<Bulb>A destination for exactly one passenger.
16:16<Touqen>How would that be better than a simpler approach though?
16:16<Phazorx>and how is it done now with paxdest ?
16:17<Bulb>Well, it's actually quite similar. It currently takes passengers last month as probability and chooses a destination at random.
16:17<dihedral_>good night guys
16:18|-|dihedral_ changed nick to dihedral
16:18<Phazorx>night dihedral
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16:18<Phazorx>Bulb: i think random in that part is quite unrealistic
16:18<Phazorx>weighted random would make more sense
16:18<Bulb>It *IS* weighted.
16:19<Bulb>Didn't I say "the passengers last month is probability"?
16:19<Phazorx>but in that case i'd still sugegst weight based on population of destination ratehr than distance to it
16:19<Phazorx>"passenghers last month" of target ?
16:19<Bulb>Yes, exactly.
16:19<Phazorx>that is same as population then
16:20<Bulb>There is a problem, that stations don't have population.
16:20<Phazorx>or there might be no station
16:20<Phazorx>so if you have 2 airports
16:20<Phazorx>everybody will go inbetween ?
16:21<Phazorx>i kinda dont see how destination could be particualtr station
16:21<Phazorx>so i though you imply "city"
16:21<Bulb>The current proposal chooses among connected stations. So the number of passengers generated when you have just one other station connected will be the same as when you have large netwek.
16:21<Phazorx>since in MP context station being target is very destructive to game play
16:21<Bulb>Destination must be a particular station.
16:21<Phazorx>hmm.. weird
16:22<Phazorx>i dont see why they did it this way
16:22<Bulb>Well, since the current proposal only selects among *connected* stations, there is no problem.
16:22<Phazorx>what's wrong with selecting place with airport ?
16:22<Phazorx>well it is a bit unrealistic on level of only having passengers to desired by company owner destinations
16:23<Eddi|zuHause2>chances are, that celestar already has an own model for passenger destinations in mind
16:23<Phazorx>rather than targeting players attention to where they want to go
16:23<Phazorx>perhaps we can influence that model :)
16:24<Bulb>I don't really know what Celestar has in mind and I hope it's something sensible. Unfortunately he does not seem to be making any progress.
16:25<Bulb>On the other hand there is already a patch in the forum and it is IMHO not very good (neither the idea nor the patch itself)
16:26<Bulb>There are passenger destinations in SimuTrans since it's start. They are done so, that a destination point is chosen randomly within city limits of any city and if station covering that point exists, passenger is generated and assigned that destination.
16:27<Bulb>Downside of that is, that initially you have very few passengers, because most of them would want to go somewhere where you don't have connection yet.
16:27<Patrick>passenger destinations should change depending on the links available
16:28<Phazorx>that makes total sence in reality Bulb
16:28<Patrick>if the only train in my town was to capital city, that's the one I'd take
16:28<Bulb>The proposal by prissi (who is also simutrans developer) is to select from connected stations, which I fear is the other extreme.
16:28<Patrick>passengers should be able to change :)
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16:28<Bulb>Yes, passengers are able to change. The 'connected' property is transitive.
16:30<Bulb>The problem is, that a station will generate the same number of passengers independently of how well it is connected. Which IMHO somewhat looses the point (though it still has the point of making feeder systems useful).
16:30<Patrick>a catchment area is a reasonable approximation to life
16:31<Patrick>let me deviate: in the game defcon, all vehicles have binary health. They're either alive or they're not. Weapons fire has a probability of death.
16:31<Patrick>that's an approximation that makes coding much simpler, but the game is still approximately real
16:31<Patrick>those are the sorts of simplifications we should try to make
16:31<Bulb>So I would love to see something in between. Passengers would want to go to random place (not just station - so the more of map you cover, the more passengers you get), but closer destinations are more likely, so when you connect two nearby towns, you get reasonable amount of passengers.
16:32<Bulb>And on the other hand it will make feeder to an airport less efficient in the end, because there will simply be few passengers who'd want to travel across the whole map.
16:34<Eddi|zuHause2>Bulb: what you need is some kind of poisson-distribution, or similar
16:35<Bulb>Yes, something like that.
16:36<Bulb>So that you can get good amount of passengers with small network to get profit from it and more, but not too mamy with a large one.
16:36<Eddi|zuHause2>a passenger should choose a random target tile, and then find the closest (connected) station
16:37<Bulb>Yes. The title should be some that generates (fraction of) passengers, though. Which is hard.
16:37<Phazorx>i tihnk different tyles should have different values then
16:38<Phazorx>many people want to go empire states building or louve and lesss to middle of sahara
16:38<Bulb>They do. It would reuse the probabilities a tile generates a passenger.
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16:38<Phazorx>i see
16:38<Eddi|zuHause2>well, ttdp makes some discrimination between tourists and passengers
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16:39<Eddi|zuHause2>the first one should more likely make longer journeys
16:39<Bulb>I was thinking that maybe it would be possible (with big rounding and such for efficiency, so the distribution would be something weird rather than poisson, but that would not matter) to calculate probabilities for the passenger to choose each station and the probability to fail to choose one and use that.
16:40<Bulb>Eddi|zuHause2: In a sense that building has probability to generate a passenger and probability to generate tourist?
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16:40<Bulb>And what would be the difference without destinations?
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16:41<Eddi|zuHause2>well, if you want an efficiency approach, a station should rather store the connected stations with distance (travel time? price?)
16:42<Bulb>Of course. That's not the main issue. The main issue is how to calculate the probability of the passenger not finding a station!
16:42<Eddi|zuHause2>and a passenger would choose a station in catchment area, and choose a target from there, based on some random distribution
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16:43<Bulb>The station (probably - it certainly could) cache the passenger generation speed, which would at the same time be the passenger accepting speed.
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16:47<Bulb>However to find the chance that passenger would go to somewhere unconnected I need to know not only the total passenger generation speed (sum for all buildings on the map), but also their distribution in distance. Which I'd simply estimate by either approximating it as homogenous, or by summing per town and taking each town as being wholly in the same distance.
16:51<RobertGrammig>which is the most elegant way to replace an airport? right now I manually select new targets for each aircraft individually which is a pain to do. is there a setting/grf to make that easier?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>use shared orders?
16:56<RobertGrammig>ok thats a nice concept didnt know about it
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16:57<RobertGrammig>for my problem however I have lots of different destinations that are all served from my min airport and shared orders only slightly alleviate that problem
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause2>on the airport, you can open a list of all aircraft that have it in the orders, you'll have no other choice than going through that list, until it is empty
17:02<Biff>it should be some in-game scripting language
17:02<Biff>for plane in aircrafts: plane.orders[0] = foo
17:03<Patrick>mmm, python
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>there is the noai branch :)
17:03<Biff>Ooh, python
17:04<Eddi|zuHause2>it ripped out any signs of the existing ai
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause2>and implements a squirrel based api
17:05<Biff>oh, why?
17:05<Biff>squirrel based?
17:05<Eddi|zuHause2>for future ai use
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17:08<Eddi|zuHause2><Biff> oh, why? <- because it sucks, and is not extensible(?)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>english is weird...
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17:10<ln->silence, this is an english channel.
17:11<ln->though not as famous as the other english channel.
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17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>where would i tell english was weird if not in an english channel?
17:54<Tefad>i know english is weird
17:56<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: #openttd.complaintsaboutweirdnessesofcertainlanguages
17:56<ln->damn, the name is too long.
17:56<Eddi|zuHause2>err :p
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18:07<juancuka>hi ?
18:08<Eddi|zuHause2>the correct question would be "hä?"
18:09<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, that question fits anywhere :p
18:09<juancuka>:-S - Im new here
18:09<juancuka>I've been reading a lot in your website
18:11|-|qfh [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:11<juancuka>...anyway, I want to learn more... I thought some1 here might help me with some questions
18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>not me, i am going to bed
18:12<juancuka>anyone else here ?
18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>rarely, at this hour
18:13<Eddi|zuHause2>most people are from europe
18:15<juancuka>good to know
18:15<juancuka>thanks anyway
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---Logclosed Tue May 08 22:20:28 2007
---Logopened Tue May 08 23:17:35 2007
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23:17|-|Ekipa kanalu #openttd: Wszystkich: 29 |-| +op [0] |-| +voice [0] |-| normalnych [29]
23:17|-|Kanal #openttd zsynchronizowany w 0 sekundy
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23:25<Touqen>silly oftc
23:26<Nigel>nearly worse than freenode! :P
23:26<Nigel>(it'd be worse, if they then sent 100 global notices to explain it)
23:26<Touqen>I got banned for "network flood"
23:26<Touqen>What does that even mean?
23:26<Nigel>Touqen: everyone did
23:27<Touqen>Service migration I imagine?
23:27<Nigel>Touqen: Network Services went nutso
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---Logclosed Wed May 09 00:00:06 2007