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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-05-25

---Logopened Fri May 25 00:00:37 2007
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01:14<Jerub>mikk36: what's cooking?
01:14<XeryusTC>the thing you do when you want to eat and dont order pizza :P
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01:19<staniel>mmm that would be lasagna
01:20<staniel>only 40 minutes till my late night snack is ready
01:20<@peter1138>mmmm, lasagne
01:21<XeryusTC>mmm, italian food
01:21<staniel>and not just any lasagna, its my mommas
01:21<staniel>22 and my mommy still takes good care of me
01:22<XeryusTC>as she should!
01:23<XeryusTC>although i would have kicked you out of the house by 20 :P
01:23<staniel>oh, I was out when I was 18
01:23<staniel>she just loves me that much to send me home with lasagna's, cookies... you name it, I get it
01:24<Jerub>My parents only just kicked out my 30 year old brother for the second time.
01:25<staniel>christ, If I brought a girl to my parents im sure my mom would even provide the condoms
01:31<XeryusTC>note the if :P
01:31<mikk36>Jerub. matrox g400 is so weak that i can't even run openttd at decend frame rates :(
01:31<staniel>XeryusTC: I fear the day that I take a girl home
01:32<staniel>I don't date them long enough to so far :D
01:32<Jerub>Is this in svn trunk?
01:33<Jerub>staniel: When I was your age I'd been married for 3 years.
01:33<staniel>sorry to hear that :P
01:33<mikk36>and how old is staniel ?
01:33<XeryusTC>Jerub: yes
01:34<Jerub>XeryusTC: awesome.
01:34<Jerub>I should probably start building my own binaries. :)
01:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9916 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Free memory used by cargo translation tables
01:45<Jerub> lists "user 'anonymous'" but it's not required.
01:46<Touqen>the client does it for you
01:47<Touqen>depending on what you use
01:47<Touqen>I think tortise will send anonymous if you don't specify one
01:47<Touqen>Though I very well could be talking out of my ass.
01:49<Jerub>So why is it listed? :)
01:50<Touqen>In the event that you do get prompted for it
01:50<Jerub>Interesting, the days in transit in economy.cpp is a byte.
01:50<Jerub>I wonder if it overflows..
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01:53<Jerub>oh, it;s actually an array of two unsigned ints in another place. yow
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01:57<@peter1138>would you like some bolognaise with that?
01:59<Jerub>I actually understand what's going on now :)
01:59<Jerub>no, it's a byte that doesn't overflow, it maxes out at 255. After cargo gets that old it doesn't get any older.
02:00<Jerub>so there's no difference between 1 year and 2 for the time it takes to deliver goods.
02:00<Jerub>Ontick_Train is making me curious though.
02:01<Jerub>Cargo only ages one Tick in 184..
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02:06<@peter1138>yeah, not really train related
02:08<@peter1138>of course, there are 74 ticks in a day
02:09<@peter1138>so where 184 comes from i don't know
02:09<@peter1138>possible a typo of 148, which would be 2 days
02:09<Jerub>uh, relevent lines are train_cmd.cpp:3382:void Train_Tick(Vehicle *v)
02:09<Jerub>train_cmd.cpp:2046:void OnTick_Train()
02:10<@peter1138>but it's not *just* for trains
02:10<@peter1138>that var affects all the other vehicles too
02:10<@peter1138>so OnTick_Train, with it's single line, is... dumb
02:12<Jerub>so this means that cargo ages two days at a time, so it can get up to 512 days old.
02:12<@peter1138>2.5 days
02:13<Jerub>except it doesn't, it ages 2.5 days at a time, which is 640 days.
02:13<Jerub>So that ternary is quite obviously a bug, but the question I have to ask now is: is it worth fixing?
02:16<Jerub>It does change the economic model, and it's something that's /always/ been broken. r1
02:18<@peter1138>probably cargo_days is just named incorrectly ;p
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02:24<Jerub>oh, certaintly.
02:25<Jerub>at the very least it's 2 days, and is currently 2.5 days.
02:25<Jerub>any idea how I'd go further back in time than r1?
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02:26<Eddi|zuHause2>the same way you observe events before the big bang
02:27<Jerub>oh, okay, so r1 was the release from the sweedish uberhackers, right. :)
02:27<Eddi|zuHause2>actually no, there was an svn before, but it crashed, so the history was lost
02:28<Jerub>I just want to find out if 184 was once 148.
02:29<@Rubidium>take the first source from SF
02:32<@peter1138>you could always redisassemble ttd...
02:32<@peter1138>the cargo payment graph doesn't make much sense either
02:32<Jerub>The more I read this the more it scares me.
02:32<Touqen>Try messing with Yapf.
02:32<Touqen>If you want a scare :D
02:32<Jerub>at least YAPF wasn't decompiled.
02:33<Jerub>If I understand this right, then the cargo payment graph is a fuctiohl
02:33<Jerub>er fiction.
02:33<@peter1138>it's approximately days / 1.6, but not quite ;p
02:34<Jerub>The way cargo payment rates are calculated is:
02:34<Jerub>rate * dist * f * num_pieces
02:34<Jerub>but, 'f' is weird.
02:35<Jerub>How do I find out what CargoSpec->transit_days is for a particular cargo? I just want some sample input values for say, coal.
02:45<Jerub>Right, I understand this algorithm now :)
02:47<Touqen>There is definately something seriously wrong with the aircraft in the nightlies.
02:49<Touqen>OR they are just designed to appear to fly faster or something.
02:49<Touqen>Or I'm just really tired.
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02:52<@Rubidium>Touqen: now they fly as fast as trains instead 1/4th of the speed of a train
02:56<Touqen>The plane inspired by the concorde is a bit obnoxious to watch sometimes.
03:03<@peter1138>Jerub: you understand it? can you write something up on it then? ;-)
03:03<Jerub>I was just about to paste a patch.
03:03<Jerub>just wanted to do a little more verification
03:04<Jerub>C isn't my best language
03:04<Jerub>I am worried about overflows.
03:04<Jerub>I have not tested it for all possible input values.
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03:08<kaan>goodmorning all
03:08<Jerub>To cut a long story short, f is 255 until transit days 1, it then decreases by 1 per day until transit days 2, at which point it decreases by 2 per day
03:08<Jerub>with a minimum value of 31.
03:12<Jerub>I totally don't like that byte being there, it scares me.
03:12<Jerub>- byte f;
03:12<Jerub>+ int f;
03:12<Jerub>changing it to an int is just safer.
03:13<@peter1138>it can't be more than 255, heh
03:13<@peter1138>as cargo_days is a byte
03:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9917 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Codechange: prepare some more areas for more road types.
03:13<Jerub>peter1138: it's possible to overflow in that single line though I think. I'm not good with C.
03:13<Jerub> f = 255 - 2 * transit_days + 2 * cs->transit_days[0] + cs->transit_days[1];
03:14<@peter1138>i'm not convinced that it is a worthwhile cleanup
03:15<Jerub>The thing that scares me in this function even more is further up
03:15<Jerub> uint32 var18 = min(dist, 0xFFFF) | (min(num_pieces, 0xFF) << 16) | (transit_days << 24);
03:15<Jerub> uint16 callback = GetCargoCallback(CBID_CARGO_PROFIT_CALC, 0, var18, cs);
03:16<Jerub>param1 is unused, and param2 is packed with a bunch of values and stuffed into a uint32
03:17<@peter1138>because that's what the callback expects
03:17<Jerub>But that's the only place the callback functionality is defined or used.
03:17<@peter1138>currently, yes. there is another place it will be sued
03:18<@peter1138>"The time unit used equals 185 engine ticks, or 2.5 TTD days"
03:18<@peter1138>so that's right
03:19<Jerub>On reflection, the 255 in the calculation will stop it from overflowing because it promotes the calculation to being an int calculation.
03:20<@peter1138>the other callback for cargos has var18 stuffed with ssaaaatt
03:20<@peter1138>tt = cargo days, aaaa = cargo waiting, ss = last vehicle speed
03:22<Jerub>peter1138: If it were me, I'd allow you to provide a void*, so I could use an arbitary struct...
03:23<@peter1138>not useful
03:23<@peter1138>not good practice either
03:23<Jerub>I have to run off, this has been fun :)
03:23<@Rubidium>Jerub: problem is GRFs don't know how to handle structs
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03:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9918 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp newgrf.cpp): -Fix: the available roadtypes/railtypes were not updated on GRF updates.
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06:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9919 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace_gui.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: prepare some more places for more road types.
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06:54<Jerub>so how do I design tracks and stations for superlong trains?
06:54<Jerub>do I just use superlong platforms?
06:54<@peter1138>use superlong tracks and platforms, clearly
06:55<Brianetta>Use long signal blocks
06:56<Brianetta>Avoid temptation to make signal blcoks shorter than trains, except near junctions
06:56<Brianetta>You'll understand when you get a jam and need to reverse the buggers
06:57<Jerub>I'm only just starting to experiment with 20 carriage trains.
06:58<@Rubidium>that's not even near superlong
06:58<Jerub>yeah, that's why I was asking.
06:59<Jerub>so I really do have to make platforms the length of the train?
07:01<@Rubidium>not necessarily, but trains longer than the platform make loading/unloading much slower
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07:03<@peter1138>try unloading there ;p
07:04<@Rubidium>Berney Arms Grand Central Station ;)
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07:13<Jerub>So what's long? 60? 80?
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07:14<Sleepie>64 is the max iirc
07:14<Brianetta>That's a small station.
07:15<Brianetta>A two-car DMU would have trouble unloading passengers.
07:15<Brianetta>I suppose there's the overgrown, not as tall part of the platform.
07:19<Jerub>I just made a station big enough to collect coal from two mines.
07:19<Jerub>and if it were a teensy bit larger, an oilfield :)
07:21<skidd13>Hi, as the current icons of my order gui are not so nice I drew a horde of new ones. Check them out:
07:23<skidd13>Any comments?
07:25<kaan>erhm, no comments, im quite daft when it comes to graphics :P
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07:45<Noldo>skidd13: how pro gpl are you?
07:48<skidd13>Noldo: why ya askin? I prefer CC (by-nc).
07:52<Biff>he probably asks because openttd is gpl :)
07:53<Noldo>or I would like it to be
07:53<Noldo>or anything dfsg-free is ok :)
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07:55<skidd13>Refering dfsg.. I'm using DEBIAN
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07:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r9920 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt italian.txt romanian.txt):
07:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-05-25 14:56:27
07:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 34 fixed, 15 changed by arnaullv (49)
07:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 2 fixed by lorenzodv (2)
07:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: romanian - 12 fixed, 11 changed by CrystyB (23)
07:58<Jerub>do you ever use transfer stations?
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08:04<elmex>Jerub: i did
08:04<elmex>but transfer is a complete mess ;-/
08:05<elmex>i once tried to setup a feeder network, but it wont work right
08:05<elmex>the cargo is just mixed up and it wont work somehow ;-/
08:05<Noldo>it's just an accounting trick anyway
08:06<elmex>it would be a nice feature to be able to setup feeder networks
08:06<elmex>but atm you can't do A->D, B->D, C->D, D->Z with only coal
08:07<elmex>waiting for cargo packets :)
08:07<Sionide>elmex, yeah you can...?
08:07<Sionide>i've done it with wood in my latest game
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08:07<elmex>well, when station D also received coal from a local industry the income is mixed up
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08:08<Sionide>how so?
08:08<skidd13>Back again, damn thunderstorm!
08:08<elmex>the cargo is merged and the game can't keep track of which cargo comes from where
08:08<elmex>so you only get the income as if you would transport from D->Z
08:08<Sionide>no you don't
08:09<Sionide>what version are you running?
08:09<elmex>at least as far as i've tested it yesterday with current svn
08:09<Sionide>you saying all trains doing *->D, run at a loss?
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08:09<elmex>well, yes, they do
08:09<Noldo>skidd13: the point is that I would like openttd to have dfsg-free graphics so it could be distributed in debian main
08:09<elmex>but not visibly
08:09<Sionide>not true! you get transfer income, it's yellow isn't it.. instead of green?
08:09<Jerub>this doesn't make any sense.
08:10<elmex>Sionide: the yellow one doesn't go to your bankaccount
08:10<Jerub>the SH'8P' is more expensive than the better-in-every-way UU'37'
08:10<skidd13>Noldo: Ah, so why ya askin me?
08:11<@peter1138>Jerub: so? it's also earlier...
08:11<Sionide>elmex, where does it go then?
08:11<Noldo>skidd13: because you seem to be somewhat capable artist
08:11<elmex>Sionide: nowhere
08:11<Sionide>profit this year: £85k, last year: £84k
08:11<elmex>Sionide: it's partially transfered to the train that picks up at D, but that train wont make any income
08:12<Jerub>peter1138: it's just weird, I expect upgrades to cost me money, not give me refunds.
08:12<skidd13>Noldo: Thanks, but I'm not the only one! ;) This would be a realy hard job,
08:12<Sionide>elmex, wtf!
08:13<elmex>and tell me whether the train from the middle station makes income :)
08:13<elmex>it's just not working
08:13<Sionide>i'll show you
08:13<Jerub>I was looking at the code for calculating income today.
08:13<Jerub>I don't think it handles transfer stations very well, but it's very complicated and I don't understand it yet.
08:14<elmex>the problem is just that the game doesn't keep track of the sources of the cargo
08:14<Sionide>elmex, shows the train having picked up from D (you can see some cargos from one station, some from another)
08:15<Sionide> shows it having made £31k from that trip...
08:15<Jerub>yes, the profit for a transported cargo is calculated from the type of cargo, how long it was in transit, and the distance it was taken.
08:15<elmex>Sionide: right, nice eh? are you sure that one truck doesn't contain 15 tonnes from carlisle woods and 15 from carlisle heights?
08:16[~]Sionide watches the middle station
08:16<Sionide>yes, some of them do
08:17<Sionide>apparently, in the cargo info it shows the station with the most in that truck..
08:17<elmex>Sionide: of course it makes 'some' income, but have you tested whether it really works? keep an eye on the trucks of how the trucks' contents changes it's destination when loading cargo
08:18<elmex>it's not easy to see, but it just doesn't work as expected
08:18<elmex>try my w.sav, train 2 _never_ makes any positive income
08:18<Jerub>yeah, this is consistent with what I was concerned with
08:19<Sionide>elmex, in my game, all trains make > 50k per year
08:20<Sionide>so what it should say X tonnes from station a and Y tonnes from station b
08:20<elmex>i don't care bout your game, i care about what i have observed in my test game
08:20<elmex>if it works for you it's great
08:20<elmex>then maybe only i'm having these issues
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08:21<Jerub>I think I basically established that transfers were good if you didn't care about the interim profits.
08:21<Jerub>just so you can get 4 nearby resources to pool so you can run big long distances with the cargo
08:22<elmex>but it's still a mess ;-/
08:22<elmex>that the feeder trains don't make negative income is just a hack
08:22<Sionide>there could be loads of other reasons why your train2 isn't making any money
08:23<elmex>Sionide: right, then tell me one :) i can give you the savegame and you can try out with a nighty
08:24<elmex>if the train 1 would go straight to the drop station everything would be fine
08:24<elmex>and if train2 would not load any transfered cargo
08:25<Sionide>you want train2 to *just* load local cargo?
08:25<elmex>i want train2 to load any cargo
08:25<elmex>that is available
08:25<elmex>and i want it to make profit
08:25<skidd13>I'm off. That damn thunderstorm is getting harder.
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08:25<elmex> that one even runs with 0.5.1 even thought the problem isn't that visible there
08:27<Sionide>there isn't a r9894 linux nightly?
08:27<elmex>i've no idea, you can use an earlier one with w2.sav too
08:28<elmex>even with 0.5.1 train2 never makes any income. the income should at least be around the income of train1
08:29<Sionide>i'm running it with svn now
08:29<elmex>that should even display 'Cost...' above train2 when it unloads at the dropoff station
08:29<Sionide>why should their incomes be the same
08:29<Sionide>look how far train1 carries coal, compared to train2
08:29<Sionide>a fraction
08:30<elmex>so why would it make negative income?
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08:33<elmex>the miracle happens when you un-extend station Herzhaven heights to not get local coal
08:33<elmex>then it works :)
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08:35<elmex>if you extend herzhaven heights to the local coal mine the income will become messed up
08:36<elmex>forgot to extend it in that game
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08:41<Sionide>elmex, i'm working on it
08:42<Sionide>cos i have that exact set up in mine
08:42<Sionide>there's a local wood by the feeder station
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08:55<Sionide>elmex, i'm gonna figure this.. i'm doing my own experiment on a new map..
08:55<Sionide>show you in a sec
08:56<Sionide>well maybe more than a sec
08:56<Sionide>how long you online for? :p
08:57<elmex>don't know... 10 hours... 20...
08:57<elmex>but you should be able to confirm my observations with w2.sav already
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08:59<Sionide>elmex, yeah i confirm it, but i'm just testing something else now
09:00<Sionide>well, a similar idea anyway
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09:51<Sionide>elmex, it's definitely because in your savegame, the power planet is so close to the mines...
09:51<Sionide>r9884 if you need it
09:54<Sionide>all the trains which take the coal from the middle station, to the further away power station, make money
09:54<Sionide>the other one runs at a loss
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10:31<elmex>Sionide: sorry
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10:37<elmex>Sionide: yea, that setup hides the problem well :-)
10:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9921 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9892): ownership wasn't properly propagated on owner changes.
10:37<Sionide>what's the problem?
10:40<Sionide>explain it further, with reference to that savegame
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10:43<elmex>Sionide: build another station next to winnigville mines that just transport coal from that mine to the destination station called 'wonnigville transfer' that one where the 'makes no money' train goes
10:44<elmex>it proves that the train that 'makes no money' should make money :)
10:44<Sionide>you'd never set it up like that though in a real game
10:44<elmex>of course the trains that have longer runs make money
10:44<elmex>because they make up for the loss from the transfer
10:46<elmex>the point my savegame tried to proof is that the transfer-logic and system is broken
10:47<Sionide>in a real game that situation wouldn't occur
10:48<elmex>so there is no bug because in a real game the bug isn't as visible?
10:48<+glx>it's a known fact that we need cargo packets to properly fix transfer
10:49<+glx>for now you should live with the limitations
10:49<elmex>i'm not saying anything diff. :)
10:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9922 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_ship.cpp: -Fix (r9914): [YAPF] null pointer dereference.
10:50<elmex>Sionide: also in your savegame the bug doesn't occur as much because only few of the cargo is actually mixed with the coal genereated by the local mine
10:56<Sionide>it's still to do with the distance though, right?
10:58<elmex>hm, i don't know exactly what they problem is, i guess the cargo's source isn't properlt recorded when cargo with diferent sources is mixed so that trains that don't make profit with the cargo by themselves don't make any profit
10:59<+glx>it isn't recorded because we need cargo packets for that
11:02<Sacro>!seen KUDr
11:02<_42_>Sacro, KUDr ( was last seen quitting #openttd 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours 50 minutes ago (04.05. 19:12) stating "Read error: Connection reset by peer" after spending 8 hours 58 minutes there.
11:02<Sacro>!seen KUDr_wrk
11:02<_42_>Sacro, please look a bit closer at the memberlist of this channel.
11:03<Sacro>stupid bot
11:04<+glx>@seen KUDr_wrk
11:04<@DorpsGek>glx: I have not seen KUDr_wrk.
11:04<Sacro>glx: not sure which is more useless
11:04<+glx>@seen Sacro
11:04<@DorpsGek>glx: Sacro was last seen in #openttd 13 seconds ago: <Sacro> glx: not sure which is more useless
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11:05<+glx>Sacro: DorpsGek is better but only if it was here when the searched people spoke for the last time
11:27<Sacro>i need some YAPF info
11:27<Sacro>i don't understand it
11:35<skidd13>I created a poll about the icons for my new orders window patch. Everyone is invited to vote.
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11:43<elmex>skidd13: i like I or IX most ;-/
11:44<elmex>i'm for IX
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11:46<skidd13>good choise. ;)
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11:47<kaan>hi all
11:51<Thomas[NL]>skidd13, how about just the plus, minus and arrow of IX ? (bigger of course)
11:52<skidd13>IMO there has to be the connection to the order-list
12:07<KUDr_wrk>Sacro: what exactly you need to know?
12:08<Sacro>KUDr_wrk: i have finished college till september, and i want to start the signalling rewrite, and i want to integrate it with YAPF
12:09<KUDr_wrk>how 'integrate'?
12:09<Sacro>well, the signalling system needs pathfinding
12:09<KUDr_wrk>like PBS(including reservations)?
12:09<Sacro>and i know yapf uses lookahead
12:09<Sacro>yes, PBS is one of the things
12:10<KUDr_wrk>signaling needs simple pathfinding but reservation system is much more complex than yapf itself
12:10<KUDr_wrk>YAPF is now stateless
12:10<KUDr_wrk>and signaling will be statefull
12:11<KUDr_wrk>so the best would be to build signaling on top of YAPF interface
12:11<@peter1138>reservation is easy
12:11<KUDr_wrk>peter1138: for single train yes
12:11<@peter1138>yes ;)
12:12<Sacro>well i'd like to have PBS
12:12<Sacro>as well as yellow signals
12:12<KUDr_wrk>so if you need to extend YAPF interface to expose some internals, tell me. The same if you need YAPF to respect some rules that can be read from the map
12:13<Sacro>for when peter1138 does his realistic deceleration
12:13<KUDr_wrk>how will yellow signals influence YAPF?
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12:13<Sacro>if it has 2 lines to choose from, one yellow, one green, chose the green
12:14<Sacro>wheras it'd prefer yellow over red
12:14<KUDr_wrk>for PBS i need to know whther and what PBS states I should take into consideration
12:15<KUDr_wrk>hmm, so like half the penalty than for red?
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12:17<elmex>how can i change breakdowns in a game ona dedicated server?
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12:22<elmex>and if the game already runs?
12:23<Eddi|zuHause2>probably not at all
12:23<elmex>damn ;-/
12:23<Eddi|zuHause2>save it, load as local game, change diff, save, restart server with new savegame
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12:27<Eddi|zuHause2><Sacro> well, the signalling system needs pathfinding <- actually it does not, just run the pathfinder from the end of the reserved path (instead of from the engine position), then reserve the appropriate trackbit, repeat if reserved path is too short, or if path ends in a "complex" block (terminology as in celestars paper)
12:28<Eddi|zuHause2>if the engine leaves a tile, it just takes the next reserved trackbit, without pathfinder involved, then extends the reserved path like described above, if necessary
12:28<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: yes, but i think it will need accurate stopping distances
12:28<Sacro>so a train reserves a path longer than its stopping distance
12:28<Eddi|zuHause2>just make sure stopping distance < reserved path length
12:29<Sacro>so it keeps getting green signals
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12:29<Sacro>if it gets a yellow, it slows down
12:29<@Rubidium>the signal blocks just need to be long enough that when the train hits a yellow signal it can stop in time for the red signal
12:29<Eddi|zuHause2>you don't need yellow signals for that
12:30<Sacro>i want yellow signals :p
12:30<@Rubidium>and when the user doesn't, the trains crash :)
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>just make the train slow down if the extension of the reserved path fails
12:30<Sacro>i want proper home and distants with semaphores
12:30<Sacro>Rubidium: i did consider this idea
12:30<Sacro>for people that leave 1 space between signals
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>you can have yellow signals as visual effects and stuff
12:30<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: i think they should have some kind of effect on the trains
12:31<Sacro>make them slow down so the block has more chance to clear
12:31<Eddi|zuHause2>imho, short signal distance should reduce track max speed
12:31<Eddi|zuHause2>no matter if yellow or green
12:31<Sacro>yes... a train should not be able to increase its braking distance past the length of the blocks it has reserved
12:31<Eddi|zuHause2>so you have like "if signal distance = 3 tiles, max. 100km/h"
12:32<Eddi|zuHause2>but this will not be trivial
12:33<Sacro>i think it should be affected by weight of the train
12:33<Eddi|zuHause2>because you have to reserve this distance even over junctions
12:33<Eddi|zuHause2>but i think this gets too far
12:33<Eddi|zuHause2>you should take slower steps
12:34<Eddi|zuHause2>implement the reserved path, the braking distance thing afterwards, and yellow signals on top of it
12:34<Sacro>yeah, thats true
12:35<Sacro>its 3 different things at least
12:35<Eddi|zuHause2>allow for different signal systems, for easy, medum and hard difficulty
12:35<Sacro>should i leave the original default green...
12:35<Eddi|zuHause2>a propos medium, i knew i forgot something ...
12:35<Sacro>please don't talk in greek/latin, i get confused:p
12:35<Eddi|zuHause2>no, you can make everything default red
12:36<Eddi|zuHause2>but "easy" should not be affected by breaking distance and stuff
12:36<Eddi|zuHause2>only have like one signal type
12:36<Eddi|zuHause2>that automatically "does the right thing"
12:36<Sacro>what would "the right thing" be?
12:36<Eddi|zuHause2>"a propos" is french, i believe
12:36<Sacro>i am english!
12:37<Eddi|zuHause2>make trains not crash! :)
12:37<Sacro>ooh an sms
12:37<Eddi|zuHause2>ohh... rain...
12:37<Eddi|zuHause2>hard rain...
12:38<Eddi|zuHause2>and of course sattelite tv is affected...
12:38<KUDr_wrk>Sacro: Eddi|zuHause2 is right - you don't need changes in YAPF in order to implement PBS - and this should be your prefered way
12:38<Eddi|zuHause2>YAPF can later be tuned to give penalty for crossing a reserved path and stuff
12:38<Sacro>KUDr_wrk: what about for path following?
12:39<Eddi|zuHause2>like it gives penalty for red signals
12:39<Eddi|zuHause2>shouldn't be hard to adapt
12:39<Sacro>surely train requests route, yapf plans route, passes it to signaller for routing
12:39<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: you can read the reserved path from the map, does not need pathfinder
12:40<Sacro>so does YAPF return the reserved path to the train? or the map? or what?
12:40<KUDr_wrk>Sacro: 'path following'?
12:40<Eddi|zuHause2>no... follow me:
12:40[~]Sacro follows
12:40<Eddi|zuHause2>engine: leaves tile, has already a reserved path in front of it
12:40<Eddi|zuHause2>reads from the next tile, which track bit is reserved
12:40<Eddi|zuHause2>follows that trackbit
12:41<Eddi|zuHause2>then it checks if the reserved path is still "long enough" (function based on speed and weight)
12:41<KUDr_wrk>YAPF contains the path after pathfinding so you only need to call it directly not via wrapper functions that were made only because of C code
12:41<Eddi|zuHause2>(only needs "follow track" function)
12:42<Eddi|zuHause2>from the end of the reserved path, you then run YAPF, to get a new trackbit for expansion
12:42<Eddi|zuHause2>you then mark this trackbit as "reserved"
12:42<KUDr_wrk>agree with Eddi|zuHause2
12:42<Sacro>i can follow that
12:43<KUDr_wrk>this will also ensure that the reserved path will not change so often
12:43<Eddi|zuHause2>in case you find an already reserved trackbit, revert to the last signal, and turn that signal red
12:43<Sacro>and then the signal before goes yellow
12:44<Sacro>the train hits the yellow, slows down
12:44<KUDr_wrk>i would say 'forget yellow signals if you want to implement PBS'
12:44<Sacro>then either stops at the red, or it goes green, and it speeds back up again
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12:44<Sacro>KUDr_wrk: yeah, might be an idea to not have yellows in a pbs block
12:44<KUDr_wrk>they are 2 different things PBS and yellow signals
12:45<@peter1138>heh, ;p
12:45<@peter1138>^ wanked
12:45<KUDr_wrk>so they should be implemented separately
12:45<@peter1138>abuse of yapf too ;p
12:45<@peter1138>(and of course it doesn't work)
12:45<Sacro>peter1138: what have you done? :P
12:47<Eddi|zuHause2>one additional note... a signal should probably save wether the bock before or behind it is "simple", "complex" or whatever else celestar wanted to differentiate
12:47<Sacro>yes, thats true
12:47<Sacro>isn't simple only one exit?
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12:49<Eddi|zuHause2>i believe in celestars paper it was: "simple" = just straight track, "join" = only joins, "split" = only switches, "complex" everything else
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>but imho those are too many special cases
12:50<Sacro>in UK signalling, if its just straight track, it tends to be default green, unless the block is occupied
12:50<Sacro>current style
12:50<hylje>OMG! SIGNALS!
12:51<Sacro>hylje: ZOMGYEAH!!!
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12:53<Sacro>i don't follow most of the code though D:
12:53<Eddi|zuHause2>kay... i expect working signals not before 2010 then :p
12:54<Sacro>i will bundle them with DNF
12:55<elmex>btw, has it been confirmed that DNF is just a marketing gag?
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13:40<UndernotBuilder>is possible to create a patch for chatting before joining?
13:41<@Rubidium>that would require a lot or reworking of the whole network system
13:41<@Belugas>it's called IRC ^_^
13:41<+glx>you can spectate before join to play
13:42<TrueBrain>you can chat while joining in fact, it is just that the GUI doesn't support it :p
13:43<UndernotBuilder>but there isn't a irc channel per server...
13:43<@Rubidium>that's because lots of the server admins fail in making one
13:44<UndernotBuilder>and I can't use the say command while I am connecting
13:46<UndernotBuilder>also spectator mode is bad with big maps
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14:26<XeryusTC>UndernotBuilder: get autopilot and make a bridge...
14:28<hylje>.. and get over it
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14:53<Wolf01>rcon <pass> patch <name> <value> doesn't work for me
14:54<elmex>Wolf01:try: rcon <pass> "patch <name> <value"
14:54<elmex>i fell for that trap too ;-/
14:54<+glx>as rcon help says :)
14:54<elmex>i usually only read the syntax description
14:54<Wolf01>oh right, is better to read the command help
14:56<Wolf01>but are patches saved when set in this way? i tried yesterday and today i had to set them again
14:57<Eddi|zuHause2>patches changed during the game are saved in the savegame only
14:57<Eddi|zuHause2>not in the config
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15:27<@Bjarni>"How Long is the Next Train?"
15:27<@Bjarni>"About 350 feet." Station attendant's response to a passenger enquiring about the late running train service
15:27<@Bjarni>think before asking. You might get the answer you ask for instead of the answer you want :p
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16:38<kaan>what is command.cpp doing?
16:39<@Rubidium>handling (execution) of commands?
16:39<kaan>for whom?
16:40<kaan>why is that a good idea?
16:41<kaan>hehe, yes
16:44<kaan>im doing my best to understand waht im tinkering with. i dont want to break more stuff than i need to.
16:46<TrueBrain>most likely it means you shouldn't be touching it :p
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16:51<kaan>isnt it a bit odd to have a structure like this when you could just call the functions directly? is to facilitate multiplayer or something like that?
16:52<@Rubidium>kaan: exactly
16:52<kaan>ok, that should do it i suppose :)
16:52<+glx>it's not to facilitate multiplayer, it's to make it safe
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16:53<kaan>I take it that this structure is used even in singleplayer?
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16:54<+glx>of course we don't use 2 different systems
16:54<+glx>that would be stupid
16:54<kaan>ok, thats all my questions answered for tonight then :)
16:54<kaan>have you looked at the ctp2 code?
16:54<kaan>ctp2 uses 2 systems
16:55<kaan>lots of bugs with bugs in it
16:57<Eddi|zuHause2>i have never seen bugs that grow little bugs on them :p
16:57<kaan>hehe, ctp2 has it all ;)
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17:02<ln->done watching episode 3x23 [x]
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>it was totally evil, right? :p
17:03<ln->not really, no
17:06<ln->i just wonder if there will be one more episode in season 3 or not
17:07<Eddi|zuHause2>no... when would that supposed to be?
17:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9923 /trunk/ (18 files in 5 dirs): -Add: support for Action 0 Road vehicles, property 1C, bit 0.
17:08<ln->there were 24 episodes in season 2, that's all
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i found the number odd, too...
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17:09<ln->3x23 was first aired only three days ago
17:09<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, but it was definitely the season final
17:09<ln->well yeah
17:10<Eddi|zuHause2>the next 3 seasons will only have 16 episodes each
17:10<Eddi|zuHause2>and the series will have a definite ending then
17:12<ln->having watched all of season 3 within a week means that i'll have to wait significantly longer for 4x01
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause2>at least till january
17:21<ln->i'm not very confident the site where i downloaded these episodes will be up and running in january anymore...
17:22<guru3>Multiplayer Roller Coaster Tycoon would be awesome.
17:22<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, the place where i got the episodes from appears to be relatively reliable
17:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i have been using it for two years now
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>lost was the second series that i downloaded... and meanwhile i have like 20 in the list...
17:24<Eddi|zuHause2>(not all run simultaneously though)
17:24<ln->this web site i used is interesting in the sense that all the files there are downloadable by anyone, no registration or passwords or anything.
17:25<ln->and speeds > 600kB/s
17:25<Eddi|zuHause2>i do not have that kind of speed anyway :p
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17:29<Hendikins>Ugh, nothing I hate more in multiplayer than somebody who puts two airports on opposite sides of the map, 1 plane and goes AFK whilst the money rolls in.
17:31<Eddi|zuHause2>disable planes :)
17:31<ln->actually i would gladly pay for such a great way to download episodes, but apparently the copyright holders don't want to sell me stuff.
17:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9924 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix: update the road vehicle speeds when stopped and/or running just behind another vehicle.
17:31<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, the world is totally upside down :)
17:32<Hendikins>Eddi|zuHause2: Not my server.
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>the copyright holders want us to pay for the fact that they withdraw information from over half of the world for a very long time
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>or it "withhold"?
17:33|-|TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>the german word is "vorenthalten"
17:34<ln->withhold makes more sense in that context, in my opinion.
17:34<Eddi|zuHause2>i can never correctly translate this kind of words
17:36<Vikthor>Wow, such a major feature enters trunk and no comments on it? Great job Rubidium, thank you
17:37<+glx>finally someone noticed it :)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause2>i noticed the commits, but i do not understand them...
17:38<Vikthor>Well, I had to test it with CS Tram to be sure
17:39<@peter1138>what about the patch option to turn it off!
17:39<@peter1138>it's FORCED down my THROAT!
17:39<@peter1138>er, yeah
17:39<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2: r9923 to be exact
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i understood that 9924 does not exactly count as "feature" :p
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17:40<ln->btw, can someone understand what's this french guy's problem:
17:43<Eddi|zuHause2>i fear it's missing some context
17:44<ln->as far as i understand, that's all the necessary context.
17:44<ln->the guy gets upset by someone thanking in advance.
17:46<Eddi|zuHause2>it's definitely not worth my time
17:48<@Bjarni> <--- I guess this guy has time to care about this o_O
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18:04<ln->Bjarni, what episode are you at?
18:05<Sacro>ln-: he's french
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18:10<ln->me and eddi|z2 are at 3x23.
18:12<ln->seen the polar bear yet?
18:13<skidd13>Are trams in trunk avalible? I saw the track data file in the recent svn up.
18:13[~]Bjarni knows what a polar bear looks like
18:14<@Bjarni>they are totally out of context here :s
18:14<ln->polarbear appears in something like 1x02
18:14<@Bjarni>you are speaking garbage right now
18:14<@Bjarni>or is it Finnish?
18:14<@Bjarni>I'm clueless to what you mean
18:15<ln->clueless or even Lost?
18:15<@Bjarni>I don't get the idea of lost
18:16<@Bjarni>it's like watching boring TV
18:16<@Bjarni>wait a minute, it is watching boring TV
18:18<Sacro>ln-: i notice the SIMPLE bit
18:18<Vikthor>Sacro: Yeah, in trunk for more than hour now :)
18:18<Sacro>Tramo estas surrela veturilo (trajno), kiu, male al fervojo, partoprenas en la strata trafiko kaj sekvas ties regulojn (fervojo ĝuas prioritaton).
18:18<Sacro>Bjarni: 404
18:19<ln->"En sporvogn er et transportmiddel, som kører på spor, for det meste nedsænket i vejbanen."
18:19<Sacro>svn up && make -j2
18:19<@Bjarni>then it's too complex for you to get :p
18:19[~]Sacro learns more dutchish
18:19<Sacro>or is it dutchian
18:21<Sacro>openttd crashes if you don't open it in X
18:21<ln->tramways in the menu, but disabled. what to do?
18:21<Vikthor>ln-: Get tramset
18:21<@Bjarni>ln-: don't select it :p
18:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9925 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt road_gui.cpp): -Fix: wrong tooltips in station picker.
18:22<Sacro>Rubidium: damn you
18:22<Sacro>i just make;d
18:22<Vikthor>ln-: You need to have vehicles taht use tracks to be able to build tracks
18:22<ln->that's silly.
18:22<@Bjarni> <--- I think this is as close as you can get to a tramway without it being a tram (it's a real railroad)
18:23<@Bjarni>is it good or bad that I could find this in like 3 sec because I can remember the name of the station and knows how to spell it? :/
18:23<Vikthor>ln-: May I recommend you CS Tram set?
18:24<Sacro>i want the brittish tram set
18:24<ln->Vikthor: thank you for the link
18:26<ln->Bjarni: there were trams in copenhagen but not anymore?
18:26<@Bjarni>they were closed in 1972
18:26<Vikthor>ln-: It is more like alpha version, but works pretty good(AFAI can tell after brief test)
18:27<@Bjarni>now we has a shitty metro line and for less than the price of the metro, we could have gained all the tram lines back, but the politicians wanted a metro
18:27<ln->Bjarni: precisely the same year the tram lines of Turku were shut down.
18:29<@Bjarni> <-- they closed this line because some cars crashed into the train and then they decided to blame the train instead of the crappy drivers
18:30<@Bjarni>btw that train is not a tram. It's a diesel train with two 24 litre diesel engines and a top speed of 120 km/h... a real train
18:30<ln->hmm, unfortunately i gotta go sleep right now. gn
18:31<@Bjarni>sleep is for losers
18:31<@Bjarni>and sleepy people
18:32<@peter1138>roads just shouldn't have huge trains down them
18:32<@Bjarni>I like how I searched for the streetname and the town on google image search and this picture was the 2nd to show up
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18:32<@Bjarni>it has a whole lot of pics of the stops and maps and stuff, but this picture took priority :)
18:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9926 /trunk/src/table/roadveh.h: -Fix (r9923): the vehicle should continue on the next tile, not 'finishing' the turn.
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18:35<Eddi|zuHause2><Bjarni> they were closed in 1972 <- a lot of west german cities closed tram systems around that time also, and chose to use busses. then they all got hit by the oil crisis
18:36<Eddi|zuHause2>in eastern block countries tram systems usually got improved
18:36<@Bjarni>here it was because busses fitted better with the road traffic. However they became stuck in traffic in no time and the tram lanes became bus lanes and we gained nothing
18:37<Vikthor>Here in Prague, they decided to close trolleybus lines around that date, fortunately, trams were preserved
18:37<+glx>they rebuilt tram in Paris
18:38<Jerub>Brisbane lost its Trams in the '70s.
18:38<Jerub>but Melbourne still uses them extensively.
18:38<Eddi|zuHause2>i was in luxemburg last week, and i found it insane how many busses go around in that city
18:38<Sacro>Hull lost its trollybuses yeeeeeears ago :(
18:38<Eddi|zuHause2>i am really glad my city uses trams :p
18:39<@Bjarni>during that time, it was known to everybody that everybody would get a car, so it was a question of time before public transportation would be a thing of the past
18:39<Eddi|zuHause2>with one tram you can transport as many people as with 3 busses
18:39<@Bjarni>they also closed a whole lot of railroad lines
18:40<@Bjarni>luckily I live in a part of the country where it's impossible to close the railroads... too many people use them
18:40<@Bjarni>it's impossible to move all of them into busses
18:40<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause2: But you have to build tracks first
18:40<@Bjarni>using tracks helps a lot. They can drive really close to each other without hitting each other
18:40<Eddi|zuHause2>which was mostly done in the 19th century...
18:41<@Bjarni>trams rules
18:42<Eddi|zuHause2>Halle (Saale) has the oldest electric tram system in the world
18:42<Eddi|zuHause2>it did not have the first electric tram, but the first electric tram system
18:43<Eddi|zuHause2>that actually went through a city
18:43<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause2: here in Prague new tram track was openned in 2003, and it services pretty big area
18:43<@Bjarni>I presume they added modern stuff to it over the years
18:43<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, they launched a brand new track here in december 2006
18:44<Eddi|zuHause2>and they are still building a new connection
18:44<Eddi|zuHause2>and they bought a lot of new trams
18:44<Eddi|zuHause2>in the past few years
18:45<Vikthor>Here they bought trams by Porsche :)
18:45<skidd13>Coolyou can share orders between trams and busses. :D
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18:46<Eddi|zuHause2>before 1989, mostly trams of the "Tatra" type were used (from prag)
18:46<@Bjarni>btw we are getting new tracks here :D
18:46<Vikthor>In fact only design is by Porsche, the rest is Škoda
18:46<@Bjarni>so our double tracked railroad is partly single tracked for a few months
18:46<@Bjarni>and then it will be in mint condition :D
18:47<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause2: So I assume you live somewhere in former DDR?
18:47<@Bjarni>he said it
18:47<@Bjarni>and we all know where Halle is, right? :)
18:48<Eddi|zuHause2>Halle (Saale) is famous for its salt, which was found around the 10th century, i believe
18:49<Vikthor>Bjarni: Maybe, but wikipedia knows for sure
18:49<Eddi|zuHause2>in the 1970's, the city celebrated it's 1000th birthday, and last year, it celebrated 1200 years :p
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause2>apparently, they found new documents that mentioned the location earlier
18:51<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: I used to have a neighbour like that. Once in a while she thought it had been a while since her last birthday so she decided to host another one. She became a lot older in just a few years
18:52<skidd13>Will there be another button in the "replace road vehicle" window to switch between the road types like in the train one?
18:52<Eddi|zuHause2>both the name of the city (Halle) as well as the name of the river (Saale) have to do with salt
18:52<Digitalfox>Rubidium: Great work with trams in openttd :) But i have a question if i use another newgrf for tram tracks will it also work or only works with the one openttd now brings?? Like thos one
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18:52<@Bjarni>skidd13: I didn't plan it, but I guess it would be a nice idea
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>Digitalfox: i would assume it's supported, but to make sure, try it out
18:54<skidd13>There are only 5 votes at my poll for the icons for my patch. :(
18:54<Digitalfox>Eddi|zuHause2: I didn't try it, but i will later :)
18:54<@Bjarni>now you will get 6
18:55<@Bjarni>maybe it sounds better if I say:
18:55<@Bjarni>now you will get sex
18:55<Eddi|zuHause2>am i the only person to think that the channel-topic has plenty of redundancy?
18:55<skidd13>hard decision? ;)
18:56<@Bjarni>it's too tricky to figure out what to keep and what to ditch
18:56<@Bjarni>so nobody dares to modify it
18:56<Digitalfox>skidd13: I voted the I it seems to be more easy to understand form my point :)
18:56<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: in german, the number "6" and the word "sex" are spoken almost identically
18:57<Sleepie>Skidd13: now 7 :)
18:58<@Bjarni>Sleepie: you spoiled it :p
18:58<Sleepie>I voted for I too. Imho the "cleanest" design
18:58<@Bjarni>skidd13: VII is out of the question. We will get the "colourblind people can't tell the difference" complains again
18:58<@Rubidium>question is, how "understandable" are those icons
19:00<Digitalfox>Rubidium: I think the I are very understandable, but is just my opinion :)
19:00<@Belugas>in my mind, only I is, but i hd to look in the first post to get the meaning :S
19:00<@Belugas>sorry to say that
19:00<@Rubidium>I really don't have the vaguest clue what those images mean
19:00<Sleepie>I, for me too
19:01<Sleepie>well x to y, easy imho
19:01<@Bjarni>Sacro: find some other channel to spread your Hitler propaganda in
19:01<@Rubidium>1A: go directly (non-stop), 1B: stop at intermediate stations, 1C: go via
19:01<Sacro>Bjarni: it's no propaganda
19:01<@Bjarni>it's not?
19:01<@Bjarni>I would say that it's really biased against Hitler
19:02<Sacro>only slightly
19:02<@Bjarni>awesome. There is a Japanese version of that wiki page
19:02<@Bjarni>how do you spell Hitler in Japanese...
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19:03<Digitalfox>Rubidium: About the choice of tram tracks, does it work with other tram tracks newgrf sets?
19:03<Sacro>ヒトラ i assume
19:03<UndernotBuilder>a function I miss a bit in ottd is automatic pre-signals
19:03<@Bjarni>Sacro: word placement in Japanese is totally different from anything you know and word by word translation is impossible
19:04<@Bjarni>however the stuff you just pasted looks like kana and could very well tell that it's a word not of Japanese origin
19:05<skidd13>Rubidium: understanable is from my point of view what most people understand. Therefore the poll. You have a voice too. ;)
19:05<@Bjarni>I like this word a lot: 線
19:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9927 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix: assert triggered when letting a tram run into the wrong side of a depot.
19:06<@Rubidium>only 20 minutes late...
19:06<@Rubidium>Digitalfox: depends on how many newgrf sets you want to load at the same time
19:07<@Rubidium>skidd13: the "problem" is that people already have read your first post and thus already know what the buttons means so they look at the nicest one
19:07<Digitalfox>Rubidium: I like this tram track set, if i add it to newgrf list, will it work?
19:07<@Rubidium>JUST TRY IT
19:07<@peter1138>JUST TRY IT
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19:07<@peter1138>especially that set
19:07<@peter1138>because i coded some detection for it
19:08<@peter1138>that will format your harddrive
19:09<Digitalfox>I can't compile a new build right now to test trams, so that's why i'm asking and not trying... Jesus relax people... :\
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19:10<skidd13>Rubidium: Personaly I prefer IX or IV cause it describes the action best. But thats only my opinion.
19:10<UndernotBuilder>OpenTTD: rubidium * r9927 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix: assert triggered when letting a tram run into the wrong side of a depot.
19:11<Vikthor>Rubidium: I think I might have found a small glitch, with trolley pole, see
19:11<skidd13>UndernotBuilder: yes they run smoothly. :)
19:12<UndernotBuilder>from what revision?
19:12<Vikthor>UndernotBuilder: Dont you see (00:08:04) CIA-1: OpenTTD: rubidium * r9923 /trunk/ (18 files in 5 dirs): -Add: support for Action 0 Road vehicles, property 1C, bit 0. How comes you dont know this means trams ?:)
19:13<UndernotBuilder>I didn't saw it
19:13<UndernotBuilder>who developed it?
19:15<@Bjarni> <--- oh... (censored)... which if those files are the right one :s
19:18<Vikthor>Hmm 2:17 here. Good night
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20:28<Digitalfox>I just finished compiling the last build 9927, and i have a big problem... I can't place anything in the map.. ANYTHING.. If i try to build a depot, it doesn't appear on map, if i try to build road it also doesn't build, no airports etc... Anyone having the same problem? I made this build with the tool BuildOTTD, and it didn't give any error while compiling..
20:28<+glx>no problem for me
20:29<Digitalfox>Forget it... I had pause at start, and since i don't have cheats enabled, i miss the pause activated at the start of a new game..
20:31<Digitalfox>glx: I haven't use a recently nightly, so i'm not used to the start paused ( but i like it a lot ) ... ;)
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20:31<+glx>I often forgot it (but I know it's here so I check that when I have a "building" problem)
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---Logclosed Sat May 26 00:00:11 2007