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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-06-12

---Logopened Tue Jun 12 00:00:35 2007
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00:59<stillunknown>Truebrain: How much faster is the rendering now?
01:03<stillunknown>Phazorx: Is that the cpu usage?
01:04<stillunknown>Or reduction?
01:04<Phazorx>spu usage
01:04<stillunknown>5% cpu usage, that seems very low/
01:05<Phazorx>it's actualy flips between 3 and 5
01:05<stillunknown>Too low imo.
01:05<Phazorx>i am surprised too
01:06<Phazorx>but that game is weird in a sense
01:06<Phazorx>lots of tracks and trains are longer
01:06<Phazorx>longest of all games
01:06<@peter1138>me too. i didn't get that amount of improvement
01:06<Phazorx>peter1138: testing teqnique makes a lot of difference too
01:06<stillunknown>peter1138: btw, i pretty much done with my own hashmap thingie, just to let you know
01:06<Phazorx>that is done with no animation and sounds
01:06<Phazorx>as well as viewpoint not having any action on screen
01:07<Phazorx>since sprite managing takes a lot of power
01:07<Phazorx>so this is pretty much only pathfining and collision cycles only
01:07<stillunknown>There is much more at work, than just that.
01:08<Phazorx>well... i have a feeling these two are largest consumer in terms of CPU power
01:08<Phazorx>since it is per vehivle per tick
01:08<stillunknown>TrainLocoHandler is a a big load as well
01:08<Phazorx>rest is event based or pert game timeunit
01:09<Phazorx>well my numbers are not absolute, however they are taken in same situation for all tested cases
01:09<Phazorx>whcih emans they can be compared against each other and represent state of things on my platform
01:10<stillunknown>Either you have a blazingly fast cpu, or something is wrong.
01:11<stillunknown>Also keep in mind that rendering stuff has been improved in the last few revs.
01:11<@peter1138>not a great improvement
01:12<@peter1138>most of the reason for those changes are code separation
01:12<@peter1138>or something. my english went wrong there :o
01:13<Phazorx>rendfering as in graphics?
01:14<@peter1138>which you ruled out :)
01:14<Phazorx>stillunknown: CPU is clocked t-bred 2100+
01:14<stillunknown>peter1138: first version of my patch,
01:14<Phazorx>yeah for the test cases screen is pointed at water in corner of the map
01:14<Phazorx>there is nothing moving on screen and animation and full details are disabled
01:15<Phazorx>the aim was trully tests performance of logic part rather than anything else
01:17<stillunknown>6 bits is a bit low
01:17<stillunknown>But i must go now.
01:18<@peter1138>i tried increasing it. didn't affect much to be honest
01:18<@peter1138>didn't actually benchmark it though
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01:48<@peter1138>eek EvL uses ancient grfs
01:48<@peter1138>and dbsetxl with dbset??
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01:54<@peter1138>hmm, yes, EvL is a lot faster
01:54<@peter1138>becomes smooth on my athlon 1250
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02:13<Phazorx>peter1138: grfs are funky there sorry about that
02:14<Phazorx>you see improvement w/ ur patch tho?
02:14<@peter1138>the game speeds up
02:14<@peter1138>as my cpu is too slow
02:14<@peter1138>i'm doing profiling now
02:14<@peter1138>although maybe 10000 frames was too much
02:14<Phazorx>reduce animation/details
02:14<Phazorx>or run dedicated server
02:14<@peter1138>heh, i saved the game in the top corner
02:15<Phazorx>i also disabled sound and tweaked grfx
02:15<@peter1138>./openttd-6-1 -g save/speedtest.sav -v null -m null -s null
02:15<@peter1138>hash bits 6, hash res 1
02:15<Phazorx>that's a good one
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02:23[~]Tobin waves
02:26<@peter1138> 35.13 11.36 11.36 95542065 0.00 0.00 FindTrainCollideEnum(Vehicle*, void*)
02:27<@peter1138> 15.28 16.30 4.94 956793 0.00 0.00 VehicleFromPos(unsigned int, void*, void* (*)(Vehicle*, void*))
02:27<@peter1138>^^ trunk
02:27<@peter1138> 5.63 3.78 1.09 8817163 0.00 0.00 FindTrainCollideEnum(Vehicle*, void*)
02:27<@peter1138> 3.25 8.21 0.63 803832 0.00 0.00 VehicleFromPosXY(int, int, void*, void* (*)(Vehicle*, void*))
02:27<@peter1138> 0.88 15.16 0.17 152961 0.00 0.00 VehicleFromPos(unsigned int, void*, void* (*)(Vehicle*, void*))
02:27<Phazorx>on EvsL?
02:28<Phazorx>what does VFP do?
02:28<@peter1138>no idea
02:28<Phazorx>it is used alarmingly often
02:29<@peter1138>oh, VehcileFromPos
02:29<@peter1138>it's the hash lookup
02:29<@peter1138>in trun, VFP is used for collisions, signal updates, etc...
02:29<@peter1138>with the patch, VFPXY is used for collisions
02:30<@peter1138>VFP is used for the rest
02:30<Phazorx>i see
02:30<@peter1138>VFP only checks one hash area
02:30<@peter1138>VFPXY will check 1 to 4 as necessary
02:30<Phazorx>can you use stillunknown caching on top of that to reduce load even further tho?
02:30<@peter1138>i don't think it's worth it
02:31<@peter1138>not least because it has invalid assumptions
02:31<@peter1138>hmm, irrc
02:31<@peter1138> 6.93 18.54 2.24 1104000 0.00 0.00 TrainLocoHandler(Vehicle*, bool)
02:31<@peter1138> 4.85 4.72 0.94 803964 0.00 0.00 TrainController(Vehicle*, bool)
02:31<@peter1138> 13.89 2.69 2.69 1104000 0.00 0.00 TrainLocoHandler(Vehicle*, bool)
02:31<Phazorx>well is any part of that data is static for tick and calculated for more than one vehicle?
02:31<@peter1138>2.24 -> 2.69? :o
02:32<Phazorx>does it do that much extra ?
02:32<@peter1138>a tiny bit
02:33<@peter1138>it has to set a flag to update signals, as the signal update routine relied on the vehicle not changing hash positions
02:35<Phazorx>sort of got that one :)
02:35<Phazorx>back to my question - cahing state of tracks is a good idea imho
02:36<@peter1138>it may not be necessary though, as now the lookup is much faster
02:36<@peter1138>and the caching processing was quite involved
02:36<@peter1138>so instead of caching something that's slow, it's caching something that's faster
02:37<@peter1138>i will try it though :p
02:39<@peter1138> are results
02:41<@peter1138>hmm, the larger the hash resolution the less time spent in UpdateNewVehiclePosHash()
02:42<Noldo>what is it that you are tweaking?
02:43<@peter1138>oh, lol
02:43<@peter1138> 3.09 19.54 1.00 16985534 0.00 0.00 SignalVehicleCheckProc(Vehicle*, void*)
02:44<@peter1138> 0.00 19.37 0.00 33876 0.00 0.00 SignalVehicleCheckProc(Vehicle*, void*)
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02:48<Phazorx>heh nice
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03:08<@peter1138>bah, i wish gaim supported msn's "free text" field
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03:13<Kjetil>Why use msn at all ?
03:14<@peter1138>so i can keep in contact with people?
03:14<@peter1138>msn messenger, of course
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03:38<Kjetil>peter1138: get them to use irc :P
03:39<Biff>peter1138: what is the free text field?
03:40<mikegrb>Biff: it is wherey you type to not get charged
03:40[~]mikegrb runs
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04:40<TheJosh>i am having a problem doing a 'svn update': "svn: File 'src/texteff.cpp' has inconsistent newlines"
04:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10109 /trunk/src/ (spritecache.cpp spritecache.h):
04:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#838]: some NewGRFs use the same (unused in the "current" climate)
04:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: sprite IDs. Normally this gives some artefacts, but when one NewGRF expects it
04:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: to be a sprite and another NewGRF overwrites it with a non-sprite nasty things
04:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: happen (drawing a non-sprite crashes OTTD).
04:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10110 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: Reset NewGRF errors along with all the other NewGRF data so that errors get loaded again when pressing "Apply".
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05:54<TrueBrain>[07:59] <stillunknown> Truebrain: How much faster is the rendering now? <- it in fact is a bit slower, but in return we get much more freedom :)
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05:55<Noldo>TrueBrain: :P
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06:06<TheJosh>i have found rendering a tad better. when i ran Pile it went a tad faster
06:07<TrueBrain>zoom-outs run faster
06:07<TrueBrain>much faster in fact
06:07<TheJosh>althouth turning off trees is still the best way to make Pile run well in my opinion
06:07<TheJosh>yeah i noticed that as well
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06:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10111 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle.h):
06:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Add new vehicle hash table for collision detection and finding
06:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vehicles on a tile. The hash area scanned is far smaller than the old hash
06:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: table, which is now used for viewport updates only. This should give a
06:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: significant performance improvement for games with many vehicles. (Based on work
06:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: by 'B. N. SmatZ!' and 'madman2003')
06:24<TheJosh>what is "many vehicles"? Pile Transport?
06:24<TheJosh>or would even 200 trains be considered 'many'?
06:24<boekabart>TheJosh: many vehicles is so many vehicles that the game starts to slow down because of it
06:24<hylje>make that around 500
06:24<boekabart>depends on map and hardware :)
06:25<@peter1138>it'll be faster even with only a few vehicles
06:25<@peter1138>but you won't notice it
06:25<boekabart>hey, peter1138, how does the collision handling know not to collide with other cars in same train
06:25<TheJosh>im gonna give pile a try
06:26<boekabart>go to Engine and compare?
06:26<boekabart>(isn't that also kind of slow?)
06:26<TheJosh>wouldint it go to engine, looking at everything along the way, and then look at everything after itself?
06:27<@peter1138>boekabart: not really
06:27<TheJosh>isnt a train a linked list?
06:27<@peter1138>boekabart: the first engine is cached, so you just test if a wagon's first vehicle is yourself
06:27<boekabart>peter1138: maybe is (me = other->next || other = me->next) would be enough to prevent self colliding? or is 'looping' explicitly allowed...
06:27<boekabart>boekabart: only engine is collision detected anyway?
06:28<boekabart>in that case np.
06:28<@peter1138>boekabart: looping is explicitly allowed
06:28<@peter1138>it's really not that slow though
06:28<TheJosh>Pile is running very smootly
06:28<@peter1138>the slow bit was the hash lookup, heh
06:29<boekabart>no, if only engine checks vs others and others have a direct engine*, ok. nothing to gain at all
06:29<boekabart>question answered.
06:29<@peter1138>ah, that's why it's still slow
06:29<@peter1138>was still a profile build
06:30<TheJosh>whats the default blitter?
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06:52<TheJosh>is the blitter code changes to allow for a 32bpp blitter in the future?
06:52<@peter1138>*cough* present *cough*
06:53<@peter1138>although it only draws 8bpp sprites at the moment
06:53<@peter1138>12:26 < TheJosh> Pile is running very smootly
06:53<@peter1138>did it not before?
06:54<TheJosh>i only see 8bpp optimised, debug and simple
06:54<@peter1138>yes, 32bpp is not in trunk
06:54<TheJosh>peter1138: more smoothly, and my other large games are too
06:54<TheJosh>is it much of an improvement? i guess you need 32bpp grfs to take advantage of it
06:55<@peter1138>none at all
06:55<boekabart>hylje: not so duh, i can think of lots of improvements as soon as the buffer is 32bpp
06:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: celestar * r10112 /branches/gamebalance/ (193 files in 10 dirs): [gamebalance] -Sync: r9520:9620 from trunk
06:57<TheJosh>will the 32bpp support opacity? thus allowing for semi-transperent gui objects, or chat messages/text effects to fade out?
06:58<@peter1138>who knows
06:58<hylje>think we want hw accel for silly effects
06:59<TheJosh>doesnt the display system (sdl) use hw acceleration?
06:59<Eddi|zuHause2>hw accel is supposed to be on a different level of graphics driver
06:59<TheJosh>just make the silly effects a patch option for those of us with good cpus
07:00<TheJosh>i can see it now: "[ x ] enable silly effects: on"
07:02<@peter1138>what would be nice is a (2D) opengl renderer
07:03<TheJosh>another video device (instead of sdl?)
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07:09<Nickman>peter1138: you want a 2D openGL renderer? or are you gonna make one? :)
07:11<Nickman>Well, some friends and I are planning on making something like that ;)
07:11<@peter1138>it is "possible" now
07:11<Nickman>Were gonna start this summer with a project of our own
07:11<Nickman>you just have to make another blitter?
07:11<Nickman>to use OpenGL
07:11<Nickman>hehe :D
07:12<Nickman>To make the OpenGL renderer, do you just need to make another blitteR? or is it somewhat more complicated? :p
07:13<hylje>video driver
07:14<@peter1138>needs a bit more than a blitter, yeah
07:14<@peter1138> GL_EXT_paletted_texture
07:14<@peter1138>Future NVIDIA GPU designs will no longer support paletted textures.
07:14<@peter1138>silly nvidia
07:14<@peter1138>thinking everything needs to go 32bpp
07:15<hylje>good excuse!
07:16<Eddi|zuHause2>probably they think everything else is old enough to not need to be accelerated
07:16<@peter1138>it might've been handy for things like palette animation...
07:16<@peter1138>might still be, i suppose
07:17<hylje>well with gpu acceleration you can do full-blown animation
07:18<Eddi|zuHause2>the problem is converting the old animation system to the new one
07:18<Eddi|zuHause2>which might not be trivial
07:19<Eddi|zuHause2>i loved the palette animation in civ 1
07:19<Eddi|zuHause2>shame civ 2 lost that feature
07:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10113 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r10092): Missing svn properties and some Id/@file comments
07:28<Nickman>peter1138: are there any plans to start an openGL renderer?
07:28<@peter1138>not currently
07:29<Nickman>Well, if a branch starts, i'd be happy to try and help ;)
07:39<hylje>heh my gpu starts heating up when running ottd
07:40<TrueBrain>poor gpu
07:42<TheJosh>hey whats the proper process for a bug being fixed? i have just fixed a small bug, and added the patch to flyspray. is that all I have to do?
07:42<boekabart>add it as a BUG in flyspray though, not a patch.
07:42<boekabart>if it's a bug
07:42<boekabart>(so make report type Bug, and attach your Patch as suggested solution)
07:42<TheJosh>no I added the patch as a comment to an existing bug
07:43<boekabart>that is proper.
07:43<TrueBrain>TheJosh: we noticed that you added the patch, and someone will look at it now :)
07:43<TheJosh>do people get emails when stuff happens?
07:43<TrueBrain>[14:41] <_42_> Flyspray: [FS#850] Attachment 'filename_fixes.patch' (1207 bytes) added to Bug Report 'Invalid save game name offered' by josh -
07:46<TheJosh>im going to bed now
07:46<TheJosh>everyone have a good night/day
07:46<TrueBrain>have a good night sleep
07:46<TheJosh>i wil;
07:46<TheJosh>i hope that patch is of some use
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07:47<boekabart>hm, the code duplication could have been less in that patch
07:47<boekabart>plus, on *nix, all of those except / are allowed, right?
07:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd not be surprised if even / was allowed
07:48<boekabart>Eddi|zuHause2: no, i just tried, not allowed
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10114 /trunk/src/ (6 files):
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: Only load newgrf error messages if the language matches the current
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: language. Since only one error can be loaded anyway, if the language didn't
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: match you'd get "Undefined string". Also since we're only loading one language
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: there's no need to use AddGRFString any more.
08:25<Biff>/ is not allowed
08:25<Biff>unless you hack the filesystem :p
08:30<TrueBrain>I like this blitter-layer: null dirver finally really doesn't draw anything to the screen
08:30<TrueBrain>neither does the dedicated server (in my local working copy that is)
08:30<TrueBrain>poor Briannetta, no more dedicated server screenshots :p
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08:41<@peter1138>still wastes time doing sprite sorting
08:42<TrueBrain>very true
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08:52<TrueBrain>so there, dedicated servers can still assign a blitter if they like :p
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08:55<Nickman>:D, Briannetta will be pleased ;)
08:56<TrueBrain>I tihnk so too :p
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09:05<kaan>Is there any reason that improved loading algorithm is for trains only?
09:06<@peter1138>is it?
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09:07<kaan>hmmm,. now i cant find the patch setting :P
09:07<kaan>disregard me until i get control of myself please :D
09:08<kaan>there, well what do you know, it *was* turned off ;)
09:09<TrueBrain>then it mostly doesn't work, no
09:09<TrueBrain>dunno why, but that always happens
09:09<TrueBrain>when you disable something, it doesn't work!
09:09<Nickman>hehe :D, it's not a bug, it's a real feature!
09:10<kaan>maybe someone that isnt as stupid as i am today will make a bugreport :P
09:12<kaan>"Dear dev team, the game is working as intended! Please take action immidiately."
09:17<Nickman>yeah :D
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09:18<Eddi|zuHause2>what was that report? "Error: Download is much faster than upload. PS: only happens on ADSL connections"
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09:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10115 /trunk/src/industry_map.h:
09:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Create accessors to triggers and random bits for industries.
09:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Implementation will follow soon.
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10:07<stillunknown>peter1138: there was no performance increase in seperating the viewport and normal hashmap?
10:08<@peter1138>wasn't therE?
10:09<stillunknown>peter1138: Please make more sense?
10:09<@peter1138>you said there was no performance increase
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10:09<stillunknown>When did i say that?
10:09<@peter1138>16:04 < stillunknown> peter1138: there was no performance increase in seperating the viewport and normal hashmap?
10:10<stillunknown>it's a question
10:10<stillunknown>since i looked at the diffstat
10:10<@peter1138>no "there was" is a statement
10:10<@peter1138>"was there" is a question
10:10<stillunknown>Sorry for confusion.
10:10<@peter1138>besides, it doesn't make sense as the hashes as separated
10:11<stillunknown>They are seperated. how?
10:11<stillunknown>correction: How are they seperated?
10:12<@peter1138>there are... two of them
10:13<@peter1138>hmm, variable names suck though. never mind :p
10:14<stillunknown>You let the old one exist for the viewport?
10:15<@peter1138>it's not a bottle neck for rendering, so i didn't touch it
10:15<stillunknown>Maybe the names should reflect the viewport.
10:15<@peter1138>probably it could be optimized, but some other time
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10:19<stillunknown>peter1138: You should also consider looking at a replacement for "realistic" acceleration, since it's quite hungry for what it does.
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10:22<@peter1138>trunk is profiling from before the patch
10:22<@peter1138>7-0b is profiling with the chosen hash values (i.e. trunk now)
10:22<stillunknown>You used some huge scenario for that ;-)
10:22<@peter1138>i really need some kind of averaging profiler, though
10:23<@peter1138>this "EvL" game
10:23<@peter1138>only 550 trains
10:23<TrueBrain>exactly the same amount of ticks, nice ;)
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10:23<@peter1138>TrueBrain: strange that :p
10:23<TrueBrain>-vnull rules :)
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10:24<@peter1138>problem is
10:24<stillunknown>peter1138: results like nice
10:24<@peter1138>now TrainLocoHandler sucks ;(
10:24<TrueBrain>lol, the blitter is rather fast :p Haha :)
10:25<TrueBrain>in the profile :)
10:25<@peter1138>it would be
10:25<@peter1138>i'd scrolled to the top of the map so there was nothing going on
10:25<TrueBrain>it wasn't with -vnull?
10:25<@peter1138>with -vnull yes
10:25<TrueBrain>ah, yes :p Then blittering already is very low :p
10:25<TrueBrain>with my patch even less :p
10:26<stillunknown>peter1138: I just hope that optimizations continue.
10:26<stillunknown>Fortunately there will always be the next biggest cpu consumer.
10:27<@peter1138>well TrueBrain is doing a tremendous job with blitting and rendering
10:27<TrueBrain>but not really optimizations :p
10:35<stillunknown>I know just the thing to make TrainLocoHandler look good.
10:35<stillunknown>Using 50-100 ships ;-)
10:36<stillunknown>Ships are extremely expensive, at least for pathfinding.
10:37<stillunknown>expensive == use a lot of cpu power
10:37<hylje>oh, really?
10:42<stillunknown>Have you looked at this simplified acceleration patch on the forum?
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10:45<Noldo>ships just have a bit more options
10:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10116 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio.h misc_gui.cpp screenshot.cpp): -Fix [FS#850]: remove invalid characters (for the file system) from savegame names. Based on a patch by TheJosh.
10:48<stillunknown>peter1138: is it any good?
10:48<Noldo>We visioned with someone about making kind of rails to ships from those b-things
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10:51<Rubidium>Noldo: problems arise when people don't use buoys, so making "rails" between buoys doesn't solve the issue
10:51<UndernotBuilder>what about using the trams topic as an general announcements one?
10:52<Noldo>Rubidium: too bad for them, ships won't find their way
10:52<Biff>do the ship algo use A*?
10:54<Rubidium>Biff: yes they do
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11:17<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, the bad weather arrived here...
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11:44<TrueBrain>he who can guess what is special about this image, gets a cookie:
11:45<stillunknown>It's at a low resolution.
11:45<+glx>no try again
11:46<stillunknown>One of the fields is bounded by stones.
11:46<+glx>no try again
11:46<Eddi|zuHause2>do i win if i say "nothing"? :p
11:46<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd expect something about a new (32bpp?) blitter
11:47<stillunknown>It's made with the new blitting code?
11:47<Phazorx>blitting code?
11:47<stillunknown>But that's not special ;-)
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11:48<+glx>Eddi|zuHause2 said something :)
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11:49<Eddi|zuHause2>you kinda get that idea if you follow the "art#" series :)
11:49<TrueBrain>I like my art series :)
11:49[~]TrueBrain slips Eddi|zuHause2 a cookie:
11:50<Eddi|zuHause2>it's definitely great :)
11:50<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd sell it :)
11:50<stillunknown>Is 32bpp still moving forward?
11:50<UndernotBuilder>there is a new tree
11:51<Eddi|zuHause2>stillunknown does not see the forest because those trees are in the way...
11:51<UndernotBuilder>oh, and what do you mean with 'blitting code'?
11:52<Eddi|zuHause2>the code that does blitting?
11:53<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd try the files in the "blitter" directory :)
11:53<UndernotBuilder>there is no "blitter" directory in my r10067
11:54<+glx>UndernotBuilder: latest is r 10116
11:54<@Belugas>blitter is a technical term that describe the code/object responsible of painting the pixels
11:55<UndernotBuilder>nope latest is r10104
11:55<@peter1138>$ svn up
11:55<@peter1138>At revision 10116.
11:55<@peter1138>nope latest is r10116
11:56<Eddi|zuHause2>UndernotBuilder: the blitter directory was introduced in r10092
11:56<Eddi|zuHause2>"Aktualisiert zu Revision 10116."
11:58<UndernotBuilder>well, in one hour there will be r10116 in the nightlies page
11:59<Eddi|zuHause2>not if there are more commits till then :)
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12:01<Wolf01>i tried articulated vehicles, they have some glitches but they are really cool :D
12:02<Eddi|zuHause2>what kind of glitches?
12:02<Phazorx>stillunknown: is thre anything you know of that would prevent a save amde in 10048M (with your patch) to load in any other version?
12:02<XeryusTC>Wolf01: i got a game where an artic part ran into a house! :P
12:03<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause2 sometimes the central wagon "disappear" because it is under the tail car
12:03<Wolf01>and the tail car is always not aligned with the first and the second, which seem to be perfectly aligned
12:04<@peter1138>sounds more like dodgy sprite offsets to me
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12:08<XeryusTC>Wolf01: that happens when you use the hiroshima tram set
12:08<XeryusTC>i know of that set that it has some odd offsets
12:09<Wolf01>i use that
12:09<Wolf01>is the only set which has articulated vehicles, isn't it?
12:09<XeryusTC>that set has some sprite offsets that are not entirely correct
12:09<XeryusTC>afaik it does indeed
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12:10<Wolf01>i hope for a serbian tram set update with arv
12:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10117 /trunk/src/economy.cpp:
12:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#863]: When deleting the vehicles of bankrupt players, delete trains as
12:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: a whole rather than each part individually, as that leads to invalid tests on
12:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: parts that have already been deleted.
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12:14<stillunknown>Phazorx: yes, probably
12:15<stillunknown>It's larger and has a newer revision than openttd expects.
12:17<Phazorx>stillunknown: i'm very interested in somehow fixing that
12:17<Phazorx>as a one time deal
12:17<Phazorx>since i have developd on that build
12:17<Phazorx>something rather large
12:18<Phazorx>but i want to be able to load it on other versions as well for testing purposes
12:18<XeryusTC>stillunknown: you save the cache to the savegame?
12:19<@Bjarni>I say you should use a clean build and modify it to load the savegame in question and clear the cache and then save it as a normal savegame
12:19<stillunknown>XeryusTC: no, an extra variable was added, if the train was crossing itself or not
12:19<Phazorx>Bjarni: no builds i have can load any of saves made with 10048M
12:19<stillunknown>the cache was stored in the map
12:20<@Bjarni>Phazorx: it should be made. Nobody coded anything to solve this issue
12:20<stillunknown>You would need to modify to undo the changes, then somehow fake it into lowering the version number.
12:20<UndernotBuilder>for when a new feature for openttd? :(
12:22<Phazorx>stillunknown: modify to undo the changes?
12:23<stillunknown>Phazorx: Your savegame is larger than the usual savegame, it needs to be loaded by a version which shrinks it back to the usual size.
12:24<Phazorx>stillunknown: would you happen to have that version ?
12:24<Phazorx>cuz i have about dozen differen bulds and most of them can not load that
12:24<stillunknown>At the moment i can't help you with this, when i have time i will see if i write some code to undo this.
12:24<stillunknown>(i will ask for the savegame then)
12:25<Phazorx>is it possible to patch the save to make other builds to belive it is okay to load?
12:26<stillunknown>Phazorx: i hope it's possible to fake the savegame into an older version, i have no experience with this however
12:27<Eddi|zuHause2>the easiest solution would be to cut out all changes other the savegame changes from the patch
12:27<Eddi|zuHause2>and then compare the two changed versions
12:27<stillunknown>The version needs to be reduced as well.
12:28<Phazorx>my idea was - pausing sometihng
12:28<Phazorx>loading with vanilla 48 and 48m
12:28<Phazorx>saving in both
12:28<Phazorx>then comparing
12:28<Phazorx>then patching 48 save with 48m differences
12:28<Eddi|zuHause2>no, i mean if he wants to just compare the behaviour, he can just modify the normal build to load the newer version, not change the version back
12:28<Phazorx>and if that works - apply same idea to the save i want to use
12:29<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: i'd like to be able to use thats ave game in general
12:29<Eddi|zuHause2>that's gonna be much more problematic, Phazorx
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>as the savegame versioning is not supposed to handle that case
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12:32<Phazorx>so i take it code modification is necessary to be able to resave the game
12:32<Phazorx>is it just the bump of save version which eneds to be dealt with of there is more?
12:32<Rubidium>OpenTTD's savegames are backward compatible, not forward compatible
12:33<Phazorx>i'm trying to load the save in newever version
12:33<Phazorx>not older
12:33<stillunknown>In a way, that version was "newer".
12:33<Eddi|zuHause2>no, the modificated build is "newer" than the umodificated build
12:33<Phazorx>than any unmodified?
12:34<Phazorx>1M is newer than 9999 ?
12:34<Rubidium>Phazorx: not necessarily
12:34<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: not if the change made in 1M was merged back to trunk later
12:34<Phazorx>change is not in truck for sure
12:34<Rubidium>for example a savegame made with trunk r10001 won't load in 0.5-r10083, even though the svn revision number is higher for 0.5
12:35<Phazorx>however i dont get how tracking of that is done in code asuide of numbers
12:35<Phazorx>Rubidium: different trees
12:35<Phazorx>my case is same tree different branches i guess
12:35<XeryusTC>Phazorx: there's a save version number in saveload.[hcpp] IIRC
12:36[~]Phazorx goes to fetch buildttd
12:36<Rubidium>Phazorx: so, applying stillunknowns patch made you "go" on a different tree too
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12:36<Phazorx>Rubidium: at this stage i want to be able just to fake it so i can load the game somewhere
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12:37<Phazorx>and btw EvsL widely used for trsing now is smade with modifed code as well
12:37<Phazorx>it has copy/paste patch on top of that
12:37<Phazorx>but loads just fine everywhere :/
12:37<Rubidium>uhm, and in English?
12:38<Phazorx>ughm... this was badly spelled english but i think it's comprehendable :)
12:38<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: try removing all files from stillunknown's patch except saveload.*, and apply this modified patch to a clean build
12:38<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: won't work
12:38<+glx>Phazorx: I think copy/paste doesn't touch saveload code
12:38<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: i tihnk i need reverse of that
12:39<Rubidium>the problem is that Phazorx's vehicle savegame chunck isn't the right size for trunk
12:39<Phazorx>glx but it is modded copraed to regular
12:39<Phazorx>different branch just like stillunknowns
12:39<Phazorx>glx, i'm trying to figure out what needs to get changed to convert save into somethingf eatable for other versions
12:40<+glx>remove the savegame changes
12:40<Phazorx>Rubidium: is that confirmed?
12:40<Rubidium>where are EvsL and trs defined?
12:40<Phazorx>Rubidium: "Express vs Local"
12:41<Phazorx>trs = tes :)
12:41<Phazorx>i meant testing
12:41<Phazorx>peter1138 used that one for testing as well as sltillunknown himself
12:41<Phazorx>it's has lots of tracks and closely packed trains
12:41<Phazorx>and shows benefit of both caching and hash optimization
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12:42<Phazorx>later in my case improves performance close to 10 times
12:42<Arc>Hmmm... What's the name of the guy that's responsible for the Webtranslator?
12:42|-|Arc changed nick to Giddorah
12:43<Eddi|zuHause2>i thought we have a "contact" page for that
12:43<Rubidium>Phazorx: I think you're going to have troubles because OpenTTD's savegame version isn't high enough to "easily" hack your savegame into something OTTD-trunk accepts
12:44<Phazorx>Rubidium: explain please?
12:44<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: trunk has a savegame version of 64, stillunknown's patch has 65 (probably)
12:45<Eddi|zuHause2>in order to mere back the changes, trunk must reach a savegame version of 66
12:45<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: that sounds liek constant soemwhere in *.h
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12:45<Eddi|zuHause2>yes. in saveload.cpp
12:45<Rubidium>if OTTD-trunk's savegame version would've been 66 (and stillunknown's savegame 65), you could just say that it should load those bits stillunknown added for only savegame version 65 and it would load in a (slightly) modified trunk, you could save it and it would load in trunk
12:46<Rubidium>but now you have to remove the bits and set the version number of OpenTTD back, which is something the saveload system isn't designed for, so I expect it to blow
12:46<Phazorx>so if i mod same 48M not to bumo save - it shoudl be able to save game w/o it goign to 65
12:46<Giddorah>Anyone else on the translation-staff know if there's been some kind of update to the webtranslator during the last couple of days?
12:46<Eddi|zuHause2>but once a savegame got version 65, you cannot save it back to 64, as all ottd versions (modified or unmodified) always save as the newest version
12:46<Rubidium>no, then you won't be able to load the savegame
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12:47<Eddi|zuHause2>you now need to "hack" saving to save as the older version, without affecting loading
12:47<Eddi|zuHause2>which will most likely fail
12:47<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: hardcoding then :)
12:47<Rubidium>Giddorah: what's not working/bothering you with respect to the translator?
12:49<Giddorah>Rubidium: My language has fallen behind 33 lines of code... So I was about to fix these... But when I click "Next Page" it still shows the last 10 or 15 lines that was already present on the last page I was on... (Hmmm)
12:49<Giddorah>Hehe... You follow?
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12:50<Rubidium>so when click on "next page" it still shows the strings of the first page?
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12:50<Giddorah>Rubidium: Yes
12:50<Phazorx>stillunknown: hmm.. tough questio now where can i get your patch version used for 10048 ?
12:50<Giddorah>That was a much easier way to put it... Hehe :)
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12:51<Rubidium>is there some "last page" button (don't have access to WT2 myself)
12:51<stillunknown>Phazorx: ottd development forum
12:51<Giddorah>Rubidium: Yes. Same there. It says I've changed page (It says for example 200 / 3000, I click next -> 201 /3000) but the lines never change.
12:51<Giddorah>Rubidium: It has never acted this way before
12:52<Phazorx>stillunknown: i see 10075 there
12:52<Giddorah>Rubidium: And I've been translating for months.
12:52<Phazorx>not 10048
12:52<Phazorx>and you are evil: if (CheckSavegameVersion(65)) {
12:52<Phazorx>that's hardcoding
12:52<Rubidium>Giddorah: that's something MiHaMiX has to look at then (I think he has fixed some bug this week, maybe it caused this)
12:53<Giddorah>Rubidium: Okay, thanks anyways! I will have a look with him as soon as he gets back :)
12:53<Giddorah>Hmmm... Weird... Now it started working
12:55<Giddorah>"31 bad strings, 31 strings pending, 4 translators assigned" <--- Todays work is done :) Thanks for the help Rubidium :)
12:55<Rubidium>"It's a kind of magic" :)
12:55<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: that's how it always was done
12:55<Giddorah>There's no "anti-idling" rule in the channel is there? :S
12:56<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: because backwards compatibility dictates that once someone introduces that change, it is not reverted anymore
12:56<hylje>you can idle just fine for years
12:56<Eddi|zuHause2>so these lines are never changed again
12:56<Eddi|zuHause2>(in theory)
12:56<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause2: assuming ti gets trunked that works
12:57<Phazorx>but if there will be another patch, modififying save content independantly and save is made with bumop
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12:57<Eddi|zuHause2>Phazorx: backwards compatibility is only defined along the same tree branch
12:57<Phazorx>version patched with this will asuume that changes there are it's own
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12:57<Phazorx>hmm.. actualy that makes sense
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause2>trunk is never defined to be backwards compatible to any patch... if it is, that is pure coincidence
12:59<Eddi|zuHause2>trunk is defined to be backwards compatible to all release versions, and in most cases also previous trunk versions
13:00<Eddi|zuHause2>and you want to mess with this compatibility tree
13:00<Phazorx>well - one time deal
13:01<Phazorx>i want to be able to load save anywhere else
13:01<Phazorx>and save w/o changes made by the patch
13:01<Rubidium>Phazorx: that is like requesting trunk savegames to load in 0.5.2
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13:02<Phazorx>Rubidium: sort of, however what i plant o do is load it in vanilla 48
13:02<Phazorx>and "uncorrupt" it that way
13:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r10118 /branches/noai/ (111 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r10015:r10096
13:02<Phazorx>i assume after that it'll be possible to load it anywhere
13:02<Phazorx>meaning in any following builds
13:03<Rubidium>Phazorx: when you get it that far that it loads in (vanilla) r10048, it'll work in later trunk versions too
13:04<Phazorx>Rubidium: ithat is base assumption i made
13:04<Phazorx>however that aproch IMO is alos safest from sanity point of view
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13:04<Phazorx>however i guess what needs to be done is 3 step process
13:04<Giddorah>Hmm... Since I'm here :) May I bother the dev-team for a few questions? :)
13:04<Phazorx>48M with save change to 48M with no save change
13:05<Phazorx>then to 48
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13:06<@Bjarni><Giddorah> Hmm... Since I'm here :) May I bother the dev-team for a few questions? :) <--- it depends on the questions
13:06<@Bjarni>the meaning of life is 42
13:06<Giddorah>Bjarni: For a non-initiated... What is the easiest way to follow the current developement? :)
13:06<@Bjarni>now I answered your first question ;)
13:06<Giddorah>Bjarni: Oh see... I already know that :)
13:07<@Bjarni>read the changelog
13:07<@Bjarni>like the rest of us
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13:07<@Belugas>Giddorah : you could watch the nightlies summary :
13:07<Giddorah>Bjarni: Oh no... Not what has been done, but where the developement is currently focusing at :)
13:07<UndernotBuilder>the train collision patch is now in trunk?
13:07<@Belugas>exactly the same, Giddorah :)
13:08<@Belugas>unless you could read our mind ;)
13:08<UndernotBuilder>r10111 tells so
13:08<hylje>binary rev!
13:08<hylje>only a mere thousand to 11111
13:08[~]Belugas can hardly read his own mind, sometimes...
13:08[~]Giddorah do feel a craving for hotdogs coming from Belugas mind.
13:08<@Bjarni>developers has a nasty habit of not telling what half working patches they have and sometimes nobody are told until they are committed
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause2>UndernotBuilder: one of the many approaches of faster collision detecting is in trunk now
13:09<@Belugas>no hotdogs from my mind, believe me :D
13:09<Giddorah>Okay :) Question 2.
13:09<@Belugas>beer maybe...
13:09<Giddorah>Is there a "controlled" developement going on... Or is it just "Pick and Fix"?
13:09<@Bjarni>Belugas has boobs on his mind
13:09<Eddi|zuHause2>hylje: next binary revision is 11000
13:10<hylje>Eddi|zuHause2: unrelated :p
13:10<hylje>11111 is just an amusing row of numbers
13:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r10119 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
13:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-06-12 20:09:56
13:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 1 fixed by thetitan (1)
13:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 23 changed by kristjans (23)
13:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 2 fixed by lorenzodv (2)
13:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 2 fixed by darkttd (2)
13:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: romanian - 28 fixed, 59 changed by CrystyB (87)
13:10<MiHaMiX>Rubidium: here
13:10<@Bjarni>Giddorah: partly both... there is the big picture, but we aren't really keeping it as "the things to do"... sometimes something else shows up that's more interesting to code
13:10<@Bjarni>I guess
13:11[~]Bjarni throws the ball to MiHaMiX
13:11<Giddorah>Awww! It trimmed my update :'(
13:12<Rubidium>MiHaMiX: Giddorah had a WT2 problem that magically disappeared
13:12<hylje>serves you right for having a language name far in the alphabet
13:12<Giddorah>Bjarni: Interesting :) What is the "big picture" at the moment? :)
13:12<Giddorah>Rubidium: I'm talking to him through PM :)
13:13<@Bjarni>the big picture is world domination, but that's a secret
13:13<@Bjarni>read the roadmap on the wiki
13:13<@peter1138>as usual the idiots involved in world domination tell all their secrets
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13:14<Giddorah>Yeah... I'm loving it how the bad guy in all the Bond movies always manage to tell all of their secrets like on a tea-party... But never manages to harm Bond
13:15<Giddorah>However, back to the basics :) Is there a way to compare the Trunk to the current stables?
13:16<@Bjarni>read the code
13:16<Rubidium>svn diff :)
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13:16<boekabart>svn diff svn:// svn://
13:16<Giddorah>I was more thinking of... What "rev" of the trunk is the current stable made out of? :P
13:16<Giddorah>I can't handle svn's :P
13:16<hylje>stables arent trunk snapshots
13:16<@Bjarni>it's not that simple
13:16<boekabart>Giddorah: 7000-something i think
13:16<Eddi|zuHause2>it is not based on a trunk revision
13:17<Eddi|zuHause2>0.5 branch was split from trunk a while ago
13:17<Eddi|zuHause2>somewhere before christmas
13:17<hylje>you have a stable branch which gets patches back from trunk
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13:17<hylje>but little features
13:17<@Bjarni>and then we fixed bugs in it to make it really stable
13:17<Eddi|zuHause2>then there were done backports
13:17<@Bjarni>hence the "stable" thingie
13:17<Giddorah>Wait... Haha... 3 people telling the story with 3 different approaches :P
13:17<Rubidium>r7535 + a big load of bugfixes and a few small features
13:18<Giddorah>Thanks Rubidium :)
13:18<hylje>Giddorah: well at least you get a comprehensive picture
13:18<Eddi|zuHause2>just get the svn log of trunk, and the svn log of branches/0.5, then cut out the doubles
13:18<Rubidium>Giddorah: still doesn't tell much about what is in 0.5.2
13:18<Giddorah>Yeah :) Very comprehensive, but I appreciate the effort and the patience :)
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13:19<Giddorah>So... Another question for the developer/initiated people :) What achievement would you like to reach next :)
13:20<boekabart>Giddorah: see 0.6 roadmap on wiki
13:20<Giddorah>boekabart: I know :) But there should be this certain something that everyone would like to just get over with a second ago :)
13:22<Giddorah>Heh... I hardly ever run into any bugs :)
13:22<@Belugas>full newgrf compatibilty
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13:22<@Bjarni>we already worked hard on the "no bugs" idea
13:22<Giddorah>Bugfreeness/Full newGRF :)
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13:22<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Open Bugs: 39; Not assigned: 25; Closed this week: 29; Opened this week: 26
13:22<TrueBrain>sadly enough there are still a few :)
13:22<TrueBrain>(although it has been a rather busy week)
13:23<@Bjarni>we closed more than we opened
13:23<TrueBrain>can change any minute :p
13:23<Giddorah>Bjarni: What's the most important thing you'd like to be done right now? :)
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13:23<@Bjarni>the path patch can be finished and I can close like 4 bugs assigned to me
13:24[~]Bjarni mumbles something about a n00b shield
13:24<TrueBrain>Giddorah: you are looking for something to code, or?
13:24<@Bjarni>err... I mean I want full newGRF support
13:24<Noldo>I have always privately wanted to play openttd with dfsg-free graphics
13:24<Giddorah>TrueLight: I wish I was capable of coding :( I'm just curious what's happening, where it's happening and who's doing what atm :)
13:24<TrueBrain>I don't see any TrueLight here, but okay ;)
13:25<Giddorah>Sorry :)
13:25[~]Rubidium is browsing the forum ;)
13:25<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: you don't see the light
13:25<@Bjarni>let me enlighten you
13:25[~]Touqen was blinded by the light
13:25<Maedhros>debian free software guidelines, i think
13:25[~]TrueBrain is coding a blitter
13:25<hylje>Bjarni: hence he's not TrueLight no more
13:25[~]Bjarni enlightens TrueBrain
13:25<Noldo>Maedhros: yes
13:25[~]Touqen is at work :./
13:25<Phazorx>hmm... this is not good
13:25<Giddorah>A complete standalone would own... With a completely freely distributed graphics :)
13:26<@Bjarni><hylje> Bjarni: hence he's not TrueLight no more <-- he sits in the dark?
13:26<Noldo>I have faith in coders doing anything they want given enough time
13:26<Phazorx>75 + patch can not load save from 48 + ptach :(
13:26<@Bjarni>I don't see any TrueDark either
13:26<@Bjarni>maybe my nightvision is borked though
13:26<Wolf01>kaan, one of the members of my community had a problem with buildottd, it worked, but the ottd binary failed to work (strange error like "assert function: 0"), he resolved by reinstalling the .net 2.0
13:26<TrueBrain>I love nightlies :)
13:27<@Bjarni>I know
13:27<@Bjarni>you do them on a daily basis
13:27<TrueBrain>I don't do anything :p
13:27<TrueBrain>but the latest just finished :)
13:27<@Bjarni>yes you do
13:27<@Bjarni>or your scripts does
13:27<Eddi|zuHause2>i think the brain/light issue is related to "man of science, man of faith" :p
13:28<TrueBrain>scripts I excidently wrote do it, yes
13:28<@Bjarni>TrueBrain used to be a man of faith?
13:28<TrueBrain>still am :)
13:28<@Bjarni>oh I see
13:28<Eddi|zuHause2>no, but truelight maybe :)
13:28<@Bjarni>that's why you look into the sky for answers
13:29<TrueBrain>no longer :p
13:29<@Bjarni>you stopped studying astronomy?
13:29<Wolf01>when you want to apply invisible houses to trunk?
13:29<TrueBrain>Bjarni: yup
13:29<Wolf01>*do you
13:29<TrueBrain>why not
13:30<@Bjarni>too few jobs in other solar systems?
13:30<Giddorah>How is work on the newGRF-support going btw?
13:31<kaan>Wolf01: are you sure he had .NET 2.0 at all to begin with? maybe he had 1.1?
13:31<TrueBrain>Giddorah: slowly, but growing
13:31<Wolf01>he said "reinstalled", i don't have clue to know if he is a believer or not
13:31<@Belugas>BIG TIME
13:32<Phazorx>kaan got a question for you
13:32<Giddorah>TrueBrain: Good to hear :) peter1138 working on it alone nowadays?
13:32<kaan>Wolf01: oh well, even if a reinstall helped somehow then it wasnt bottd that had the problem to begin with
13:33<kaan>Phazorx: go ahead
13:33<TrueBrain>Giddorah: no, Maedhros and Belugas are doing a nice job on it too
13:33<@Belugas>BIG TIME
13:33<Giddorah>Great :)
13:33<Wolf01>TrueBrain is now working on the psychostory, to foretell the future :O (he already knows how OTTD1.0 will be)
13:33<TrueBrain>nah, I like being suprised
13:34<@Belugas>surprised, aren't you ?
13:34<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: do you have agoraphobia?
13:35<@Bjarni>because that would explain why you quitted astronomy
13:35<TrueBrain>!whatis agoraphobia
13:35<@Bjarni>TrueBrain: "fear of open spaces"
13:35<TrueBrain>I think I put Bjarni on ignore for now
13:36<@Bjarni>damn, that backfired :(
13:36<@Bjarni>backfired, but still funny :)
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13:38<@Bjarni>well, TrueBrain claimed that he likes being surprised and I'm pretty sure he didn't expect that question from me
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13:39<Giddorah>Bjarni: Got that right :)
13:42<Giddorah>When I'm looking at "In Development" on the NewGRF-part of the Wiki, it says only "Industries". Everything else is on "Working already".
13:43<Giddorah>Does that mean that the newgrf-support is almost completed?
13:43<UndernotBuilder>why there isn't dedicated server win32 packages?
13:43<@Belugas>Giddorah : it is still "In Development"
13:44<@Belugas>for once, the wiki is right :S
13:44<Wolf01>we need shore corners!
13:44<Wolf01>i want newwater!
13:45<UndernotBuilder>Wolf01: code it :D
13:45<Wolf01>i'm the last one who can do it
13:45<@Belugas>Wolf01, you dont NEED shore corners, you WANT shore corners ;
13:45|-||Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
13:45<@Belugas>don't underestimate your capacity, young man
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13:47<@Belugas>sometimes, i take what's on my mind without translating, expecting it to be already rendered in english ;)
13:47<Digitalfox>Wolf01: We have to get some money to bribe this guys, so then they will code shore corners ;)
13:48<Giddorah>Belugas: It's interesting that you think in another language than your native one
13:48<@Belugas>english is not my native language
13:48<@Belugas>it's french
13:48<Wolf01>if you apply my patches and code what i want, i'll become the official pocket pc maintainer :P
13:49<@Belugas>and yes, most of the time, i think in english while talking in irc
13:49<Giddorah>Oh :)
13:49<Wolf01>me too :)
13:50<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i try to think in english also when speaking english
13:50<Eddi|zuHause2>it does not always work...
13:50[~]Maedhros doesn't know enough of any other language to think in :/
13:50<Eddi|zuHause2>sometimes i find a really fitting word in german but cannot translate it
13:50<Wolf01>do you want to learn italian?
13:50<Eddi|zuHause2>it's even worse the other way round
13:51<Maedhros>i want to learn all sorts of languages - mandarin, japanese, french, german, welsh (for some reason...), spanish
13:51<Eddi|zuHause2>if i try to speak german, but the word appears in my head in english, and i cannot find a translation
13:51<Giddorah>Maedhros: Swedish? :S
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13:52<UndernotBuilder>I always get confused with win32 and win9x binaries
13:53<Maedhros>Giddorah: not as much, but i'm open to persuasion :)
13:53<Wolf01>i always get confused with 10 and 2
13:54<@Belugas>i get confuzed by Zeros and Ones
13:54<Eddi|zuHause2><UndernotBuilder> why there isn't dedicated server win32 packages? <- to prevent 1 million bug reports "i downloaded win32 package, but it does not start"
13:54<UndernotBuilder>oh lolz
13:55<Giddorah>Maedhros: Drink beer?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause2>besides, even the normal package can run as dedicated
13:55<ln->and another good reason is that most people only have Windows XP Home or Pro, whose license limits it to serve only 10 clients.
13:55<Eddi|zuHause2>just start with -D
13:56<UndernotBuilder>I downloaded r10117 but there isn't any new folder
13:56<Eddi|zuHause2>"i bought milk but there is no cream in the fridge"
13:56<Giddorah>... lol?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause2>that's what his sentence sounded to me...
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13:57<Eddi|zuHause2>UndernotBuilder: the "blitter" directory will only be in the "source" package
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14:14<Giddorah>Oh my god... I just saw the "birthday"-cake
14:14<Giddorah>That's just awesome!
14:25<Phazorx>the result of Phazorx vs 10048 + stillunknown patch is...
14:25<Phazorx>i won :)
14:26<Phazorx>it would be nice if dev's would rpovide overtride feature for things like that
14:26<Phazorx>there should be a way to force laod the save, rather than refuse to do it based on auxilary checks before even trying to open the file
14:31<Rubidium>Phazorx: how should it handle the fact that a chunck in the savegame isn't the expected size?
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14:36<Phazorx>Rubidium: it doesnt get to that point
14:37<Phazorx>it stops thinking about processing as soon as it discoevers difference between versions
14:37<Phazorx>if it would fail to load due to not being able to process the data - it is quite uderstandable
14:38<Phazorx>but think about newgrfs - they still work even if they not fully compatible - engine is just skipping parts it doesntr know how to deal with
14:38<Rubidium>Phazorx: version numbers are there because also the semantics of the savegame could change
14:38<Phazorx>but not always does
14:38<Phazorx>like in this case
14:38<Rubidium>Phazorx: it did; it added some data
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14:39<Rubidium>and there is *no* way of knowing whether that data is important and how to interpret that data
14:39<Phazorx>so by default it should not let average user load newever game into old build... however it is possible what the case is harmless but ther eis no easy way around
14:40<Phazorx>Rubidium: agreed, but that is up to user's discretion
14:40<Phazorx>if they feel like it deserve a chance - they also should exoect it to fail if they override checks
14:43<Rubidium>Phazorx: the problem is that with another version number OTTD might load the savefile into all kinds of wrong memory location, so the load succeeds, but after 10 seconds of play it crashes very hard. Better to make sure that doesn't happen.
14:44<Rubidium>And if people play with a patch, they are aware that they aren't playing with trunk, so they shouldn't expect trunk to load those savegames.
14:44<Phazorx>hmm.. can it do something liek reparsing it on a fly ?
14:44<Phazorx>liie load, adapt-as it would be saving it and reload that ?
14:44<Maedhros>no, because it doesn't know what it's loading in the first place
14:45<Phazorx>hmm.. that wont matter
14:45<Rubidium>Phazorx: it does
14:45<Phazorx>if it sucseed loading and ready to initilize the game - means it parsed all it could
14:46<Maedhros>no, the data has no labels in the savegame. it just loads the required data into the places the game says it should load it
14:46<Maedhros>but that doesn't mean it's loading data into the *right* place
14:46<Phazorx>Maedhros: i'm not familar with structure of data - but i assume there are headers of some kind
14:46<Phazorx>secrioning the content
14:47<Phazorx>and each part is handled individually?
14:47<Phazorx>liek this is the map
14:47<Phazorx>these are vehicles wtc
14:47<Rubidium>Phazorx: yes, these are vehicles
14:47<Maedhros>yes, but all vehicles are in the same chunk
14:47<Maedhros>so if you have more data in the savegame than the game expects it will load rubbish for every vehicle after the first one
14:47<Rubidium>it's version 64, so each vehicle uses exactly 189 bytes
14:48<Phazorx>Maedhros: somewhere in *.h data structure is outlined and format si same for every vehicle
14:48<Phazorx>exactly Rubidium: so if it is 190 - ity wont load
14:48<Maedhros>Phazorx: no, because it doesn't know that the savegame has 190 bytes per vehicle
14:48<Rubidium>and your savegame has vehicles with size 190
14:48<Phazorx>and that is defined in code, not in save
14:48<Phazorx>hence the load will fail
14:49<Rubidium>hence you won't be able to load your r10048M game in r10048
14:49<Phazorx>Rubidium: i just did for a matter of fact but that is irrelevant atm
14:49<Phazorx>my point is save might have extra data
14:49<Phazorx>which engine wont know how to parse
14:50<Phazorx>since it lacks structure for it and does not know it is needed
14:50<Phazorx>for these cases override would be very much usefull
14:50<Maedhros>Phazorx: no, what it will do is lead 189 bytes for each vehicle anyway
14:50<Maedhros>the trouble is that the 190th byte will become the 1st byte in the second vehicle
14:51<Rubidium>Phazorx: the problem is that you do not know where that one byte was added into those 190 bytes, it could be the 26th or the 34th or the 189th
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14:51<Phazorx>Maedhros: by extra data i mean it has map of underground or different planet or some other features which i can nto think of
14:51<Phazorx>not more data in known structures whoch should be parsed
14:51<Phazorx>but extra types of data in file which parses can not comprehend since it is not aware of them
14:52<Rubidium>when you add new (types of) chuncks you don't need to increase the version number
14:52<Maedhros>well if your savegame has unknown chunks, those will be ignored, yes, but that's pretty rare
14:52<Phazorx>Rubidium: really ?
14:52<Rubidium>and in that case it will (most like) just load the game
14:52<Phazorx>well in that case ball is stillunknown court for bumoping the version
14:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r10120 /branches/noai/ (69 files in 9 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r10096:r10119
14:53<Phazorx>cuz to best of my knowledge - save worked once i fooled code with versions
14:53<Touqen>Serenity now!
14:53<Rubidium>Phazorx: he did NOT add a new chunck
14:53<Phazorx>then i dont get it
14:54<Phazorx>it should not have worked if there was more data in known parts
14:54<Rubidium>does the savegame load in latest trunk?
14:54<Phazorx>i have only tried 10075 and 10109
14:54<Phazorx>and 10109 + peters patch
14:55<Phazorx>sorry 10104
14:55<Phazorx>i expect it to load in laters too
14:55<Rubidium>don't know what stillunknown exactly did with his patch
14:55<Rubidium>but he said he added some variable to Vehicle to count something
14:56<Phazorx>well it is less for vehicle and mroe for tracks
14:56<Rubidium>+ SLE_CONDVARX(cpp_offsetof(Vehicle, u) + cpp_offsetof(VehicleRail, crossing_self), SLE_BOOL, 65, SL_MAX_VERSION),
14:56<Rubidium>but that's the 10075 diff
14:57<Phazorx>that is greek to me
14:57<Wolf01>who does have a pocket pc with windows mobile here?
14:57<Phazorx>aside of hardcoded 65
14:58<+glx>of course it's hardcoded, it won't change
14:58<Rubidium>but apparantly stillunknown hadn't added that in his 10048 patch, which made it "easy" for you
14:59<+glx>it has a bump for nothing?
14:59<Rubidium>glx: no
14:59<Rubidium>the bump was so he could "initialize" those caches
15:00<+glx>hmm so the savegame version can be fixed by hand and it will load
15:01<Rubidium>jup, that's what Phazorx did
15:01<Rubidium>but normally it wouldn't be that "easy"
15:01<Phazorx>it was
15:01<Phazorx>i only harcoded more 65's into saveload.cpp
15:01<Phazorx>and denummped save version
15:02<Phazorx>thing is - i had version before i messed with it in 48M
15:02<Phazorx>much older save
15:03<Phazorx>i used 48 and 48M to resave paused game
15:03<Phazorx>and there was not much difference between saves in size
15:03<Rubidium>adding one byte to a few vehicles is most likely negligable
15:04<+glx>savegame are compressed
15:04<Phazorx>Rubidium: difference was 4 byte overall
15:04<Nickman>hi all ;)
15:04<Phazorx>i know it is zipped
15:04<Phazorx>but for game with 600 vehicles there should be more
15:04<Phazorx>600 trains - 8K+ cars
15:05<Rubidium>not necessarily, maybe it aligns stuff in such a way that zlib like to compress it much better
15:05<Phazorx>if there waz an easy way to unlzo saves - i'd diff them
15:06<Giddorah>How often are nightlies built and put on the page?
15:07<Rubidium>Giddorah: make a guess
15:07<stillunknown>Nightlies are made on a weekly basis ;-)
15:07<Rubidium>once a year ;)
15:07<Giddorah>Ahemm :D
15:08<Giddorah>Yeah cus... I'm from sweden... The northern parts... And during winter... Sun doesn't set :P
15:08<Phazorx>that's like one interviewee i once had - how often do i get payed here? - biweekly - and how many times per year is that?
15:09<Phazorx>Giddorah: it is summer there, you should look outside mroe often
15:09<Giddorah>I was hoping someone would mix up sweden and australia
15:10<Nickman>to bad ;)
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15:22<Nickman>I'll be looking for a good laptop for next schoolyear. Any ideas of upcoming notebooks that are coming? For the moment It'l be a MacbookPro
15:22<Touqen>Sounds like a winner to me.
15:23<Touqen>But I'm a bit biased.
15:24<Touqen>Disclaimer: I don't actually own in apple products (Yet)
15:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10121 /trunk/ (32 files in 6 dirs): (log message trimmed)
15:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: split renderer from rest of code; no longer any code directly accesses the video-buffer
15:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add: added NULL blitter and renderer, which are always used for -vnull
15:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add: dedicated driver doesn't blit nor render by default. Can be overruled by user. (-D -b 8bpp-optimized)
15:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Remove: removed CTRL+D from win32, which is incompatible with above
15:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add: extended screenshot support for PNG and BMP
15:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: remove all hardcoded 8bpp references and replace them with more dynamic ones
15:25<Nickman>nice one treuligt... :D
15:25<Giddorah>TrueBrain: Nice :)
15:26<Giddorah>What do this open up for? :P
15:26<TrueBrain>tnx :p
15:26<TrueBrain>More flexible blitters and renderers
15:26<TrueBrain>cleaner code
15:28<Giddorah>Nice :D
15:33<ln->can someone think of a reason why running this small piece of code would take 27 seconds instead of 0.5?
15:33<ln->once again off-topic.
15:36<Maedhros>not a clue... it takes 0.5 here
15:37<ln->i have Fedora Core 5 installed on two computers; on one it takes 0.5 as expected, but on another it takes 27 seconds and I cannot understand why.
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15:48<Biff>ln-: does it take any time if you remove the select?
15:50<Biff>try strace ?
15:50<Maedhros>does it take any time if you ask it to actually poll something?
15:50<Rubidium>ln-: what happens when you use one-tenth of the value for u_sec?
15:50<ln->if i set tv.tv_usec to 5000, running takes about 0.24 seconds.
15:51<ln->strace doesn't give any useful data, it just shows it's waiting in the select.
15:53<Biff>hmm, weird
15:53<Biff>usleep() works normally?
15:54<ln->now that i try the example program from select man page, which is supposed to timeout in 5 seconds, it appears to take "forever" (i waited for 50 seconds and nothing happened).
15:55<ln->usleep() produces expected result.
15:58<ln->this is quite bizarre.
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15:58<dihedral>for some odd reason 0.5.2 is crashing all the time
15:59<ln->the only other unusual thing is that `top' shows max. 2% of CPU for processes doing heavy calculations. but still they operate at expected speed.
15:59<dihedral>at least one of my games seems to go down every few days!
16:00<Maedhros>dihedral: details. it's all in the details :p
16:00<dihedral>last savegame
16:00<dihedral>also is another one
16:01<dihedral>i have no idea about the details! i only know that when i come around to checking the games, something seems wrong
16:01<dihedral>i.e. a game is down
16:01[~]Maedhros realises he doesn't have a working copy of the 0.5 branch around...
16:01<dihedral>autosaves are set to quater-yearly that is atm all i can offer
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16:05<Rubidium>dihedral: where there any users?
16:07<Rubidium>dihedral: that autosave is from the moment of the crash, do you have an earlier one?
16:09<Phazorx>dihedral: assert?
16:10<dihedral>i shall check about the users
16:10<dihedral>no - no users
16:11<dihedral>emtpy game
16:11<dihedral> ?
16:11<dihedral>just check
16:12<dihedral>i did a few newgame's on that one today... i think it was that one at least! could have been FP2 not so sure atm
16:16<dihedral>Rubidium: anything odd to be seen?
16:17<Rubidium>well, getting the game in the same state takes quite a while
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16:21<dihedral>i bet
16:21<dihedral>but do you think the data is good for finding out where the problem might lie?
16:21<Rubidium>didn't crash for me; can you reproduce it yourself?
16:21<dihedral>i could load the savegame
16:22<dihedral>which autosave do you want me to load?
16:23<Rubidium>the 17, because 18 is most likely made too close to the crash (same date)
16:23<Rubidium>although, when 18 crashes immediately, that would be a result too
16:24<dihedral>then i shall start 18 first :-)
16:24<Rubidium>are you using autopilot?
16:25<Rubidium>in the dedicated server I hope ;)
16:25<dihedral>sure thing
16:25<Rubidium>it either crashes in like 10 seconds, or it's already too late
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16:26<dihedral>right... then it's too late
16:26<Rubidium>the crash.sav is from 1946-07-01 IIRC
16:26<Rubidium>so that's when the crash happened
16:26<dihedral>that save game is a few days old
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16:26<dihedral>as you can see when looking at the index of
16:27<dihedral>forget autosave17
16:27<dihedral>that's a diff game
16:27<dihedral>i ran a newgame between 17 and 18
16:27<dihedral>as you could tell by the dates
16:28<dihedral>autosave17 is from 1955-01
16:29<dihedral>the game starts in 1946
16:29<Rubidium>oh, so it's unreproducable... how nice
16:29<dihedral>lucky you
16:29<dihedral>but then it looks like it's after the server restarts
16:30<dihedral>loading 17 and running newgame
16:30<dihedral>lets see what happens when it hits july then :-)
16:30<Rubidium>just make a savegame a month of so before july
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16:31<dihedral>if quateryearly is set, i dont get why the first savegame is in july!
16:32<Rubidium>because you most likely set biannually
16:34<dihedral>that would also explain the 8 min interval of the creation date of those save games :-P
16:38<dihedral>how do you know 18 is from the time it crashed?
16:38<Rubidium>crash.sav and autosave18.sav where of about the same data IIRC
16:40<dihedral>yeah - but about 6 days apart
16:40<dihedral>crash.sav is from 07-Jun-2007 21:20
16:40<dihedral>and autosave18.sav from 12-Jun-2007 18:49
16:41<dihedral>ok - not 6 days... still days apart
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16:57<dihedral>reproduced with autosave18.sav
16:57<dihedral>just let it run for some time
16:57<dihedral>i shall turn of screen so i can keep the output
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17:01<Rubidium>dihedral: how much is some time?
17:02<dihedral>perhaps 5 mins
17:02<dihedral>must be less than 8!
17:02<dihedral>so still in 1946
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17:10<dihedral>Floating point exception
17:10<dihedral>in 1946-12
17:10<dihedral>have a savegame from 1946-11
17:11<dihedral>just before that a dbg: [NET][UDP] Queried from << hope it has nothing to do with client requests !!
17:11<Rubidium>it shouldn't have to do with that
17:12<dihedral>well - have i at least given you reproducable stuff?
17:13<Rubidium>I hope
17:13<Rubidium>have to compile 0.5 on my (slow) server as I'm running a profile on my main computer which takes more time that I hoped
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17:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10122 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp functions.h misc.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Add a CountBitsSet function and use it to replace some less efficient loops.
17:14<dihedral>you want ssh to my server?
17:15<dihedral>got 0.5.2 running there already
17:15<Rubidium>nah, not needed
17:15<dihedral>just running the last savegame with debug level 6
17:16<dihedral>no additional info
17:17<Rubidium>but it crashed again?
17:17<dihedral>with the bug.sav
17:17<dihedral>that is a savegame from 1946-11-02
17:17<dihedral>crash is sometime after 1946-12-04
17:18<dihedral>some time = shortley
17:18<dihedral>again with Floating point exception
17:19<Rubidium>that's strange as we don't use any FP except for map generation AFAIK
17:19<Eddi|zuHause2>something in YAPF used to use FP
17:19<dihedral>crash is in 1946-12-18
17:19<dihedral>it reaches that day
17:20<dihedral>and then it crashed
17:20<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: it can't be YAPF
17:20<Eddi|zuHause2>might have been a debug feature...
17:20<dihedral>there is nothing to be using yapf
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>errr... was the ping timeout increased?
17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>i thought it used to be 480 seconds
17:22<Rubidium>I think so
17:22<dihedral>where does the setting get set?
17:23<Rubidium>oops, compiled the 0.5 binary with the wrong settings :(
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>ping timeout is a setting of the IRC server, dihedral... totally unrelated to your problem :)
17:24<dihedral>if it was me causing the prob that would have been solvable a lot faster :-)
17:24<Rubidium>2 weeks of depchecking later it starts to compile
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17:27<Rubidium>luckily compiling with (full) debugging is faster than compiling "release" grade binaries
17:27|-|mikk36 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds]
17:28<Eddi|zuHause2>it's easy to be faster if you skip optimisations :)
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17:31<dihedral>anyhow - i shall hit the rack
17:31|-|dihedral changed nick to rack
17:31[~]rack hits himself
17:31|-|rack changed nick to dihedral
17:31<dihedral>good night guys
17:31<dihedral>hope the save game gets you somewhere with that crash
17:32<dihedral>please let me know :-)
17:32[~]dihedral is curious :-)
17:32[~]Rubidium too
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17:38<Phazorx>got another save for ya to test
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17:45<@peter1138>for what?
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17:47<Phazorx>testing hash
17:47<Phazorx>i got ~50% load here woth 104M
17:48<Phazorx>same PC that has 4% laod at EvsL
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18:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r10123 /trunk/src/video/ -Fix r10121: the 8 bpp cocoa video driver works again
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18:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10124 /trunk/src/video/ -Fix r10123: fix the OSX video driver properly
18:11[~]Eddi|zuHause2 gets popcorn and watches the commit wars
18:11<TrueBrain>we don't have wars
18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>so what do you call it?
18:13<TrueBrain>Bjarni in an overenthousiastic mood :) I send him some things to test, which he commited :p Shit happens
18:14<Eddi|zuHause2>and the moral of the story? :p
18:14<TrueBrain>make clear when you are sending people test-things :)
18:14<TrueBrain>don't send Bjarni things at a late hour
18:14<TrueBrain>don't send things at a late hour
18:15<TrueBrain>tie your shoes before leaving the house
18:15<TrueBrain>eat food at regular hours
18:15<TrueBrain>don't type rm -rf / as root
18:15<@Bjarni>specially not to people, who are busy doing other stuff, but decides to look at a failure to execute problem since it's urgent
18:15<Eddi|zuHause2>don't eat yellow snow?
18:15<+glx>that too :)
18:15<TrueBrain>Bjarni: urgent only for those who use OSX ;)
18:15<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: for sure, don't eat yellow snow :)
18:15<@Bjarni>how about green show?
18:16<@Bjarni>or red
18:16<@Bjarni><TrueBrain> Bjarni: urgent only for those who use OSX ;) <-- those are the most important users ;)
18:16<Eddi|zuHause2>i have never seen green snow...
18:16<@Bjarni>at least when it comes to stuff that I have to look at
18:16<TrueBrain>I did see red snow
18:16<TrueBrain>nasty I can tell you
18:17<@Bjarni>the snow can be coloured red by sand from Sahara... the wind can take it all the way to Denmark, so I presume that it can take it to Germany and NL as well
18:17<Eddi|zuHause2>i think i heard the line "don't eat yellow snow" the first time on the bundys
18:17<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: most likely me too :p
18:18<TrueBrain>and in the class-room of course many more times
18:21<TrueBrain>so, what's next.....
18:21<TrueBrain>ah, yes yes
18:22<Eddi|zuHause2>the same thing as every night :)
18:23<TrueBrain>TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
18:23<TrueBrain>I am Brain
18:23<TrueBrain>that makes you Pinky
18:24[~]Bjarni feels bad for Eddi|zuHause2
18:24<Eddi|zuHause2>i think we discussed that before :p
18:24<Eddi|zuHause2>of course i could act like pinky, but that does not mean i would identify with him :p
18:25<TrueBrain>too bad :p
18:26<Eddi|zuHause2>actually, that would be a name for DorpsGek :p
18:26<TrueBrain>Pinky.. lol
18:26<TrueBrain>I kind of like it :p
18:26<Eddi|zuHause2>well, TruePinky of course :)
18:27<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause2> of course i could act like pinky, but that does not mean i would identify with him :p <-- sure. It takes brainpower to identify yourself with somebody else, nomatter how similar you are :P
18:27<Eddi|zuHause2>that took you long enough :)
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18:28<Phazorx>wow that's a weird one
18:29<Phazorx>tile.h:57 tile < MapSize()
18:31<Eddi|zuHause2>what about it?
18:31<Phazorx>strange assertion
18:31<Phazorx>game checking tile outside of map?
18:32<Eddi|zuHause2>assertions are conditions that should always be true
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18:32<Phazorx>meaning this one wasnt
18:32<Phazorx>and tile index probably was out of bounds
18:32<Ailure>hello all
18:32<TrueBrain>hi Ailure
18:32<Ailure>Anything new?
18:33<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, and if you triggered that assertion, your job would be to provide us with a description how you did it
18:33<Ailure>Apart from trams being implented?
18:33<TrueBrain>blitters!! :)
18:33<Eddi|zuHause2>articulated vehicles
18:33<Ailure>any newGRF that uses that feature currently?
18:34<Eddi|zuHause2>road vehicles to be more specific
18:34<Ailure>yeah I figured so
18:34<Eddi|zuHause2>yes. trams
18:34<Eddi|zuHause2>some of them, at least
18:34<Ailure>any spefic tramset I mean
18:34<Eddi|zuHause2>and more will follow
18:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r10125 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#865]: under some circumstances the wagons of a train didn't get loaded properly.
18:36<Ailure>I wish you could define the titlescreen in the config file
18:36<Ailure>I use a custom titlescreen xD
18:36<Ailure>but I have to replace it back everytime I get a new nightly
18:37<TrueBrain>I still want a rotating titlescreen :)
18:37<Eddi|zuHause2>wasn't wolf01 working on a patch?
18:38<Ailure>I made my own titlescreen featuring some custom newGRF
18:38<Ailure>but main reason is that the titlescreen OTTD uses
18:38<Eddi|zuHause2>no, title screen scrolling and stuff
18:38<Ailure>seems to be designed by some ADHD kid
18:39<Ailure>so you hear all kind of vehicle noises when you start OTTD D:
18:39<TrueBrain>start openttd -snull
18:39<Ailure>but I want sounds
18:40<Eddi|zuHause2>but why do you need to replace it every time? just don't overwrite it
18:41<Eddi|zuHause2>for that purpose, the read only attribute got invented :(
18:41<Ailure>guess what
18:41<Ailure>it's marked read only
18:41<Ailure>but my OS isn't exactly D:
18:42<Ailure>if you choose overwrite all
18:42<Ailure>that includes readonly files
18:42<Ailure>in Windows at least
18:42<Sionide>there needs to be a competition for a new titlescreen
18:42<Sionide>when the scrolling patch it done maybe
18:42<Eddi|zuHause2>iirc, if i chose "overwrite all", it asked again on a read only file
18:43<Sionide>basically, take a small map and *fill* it with every feature you can think of..
18:43<@Bjarni>I wouldn't mind more than one titlescreen
18:43<@Bjarni>so the game could select a random one each time
18:43<Ailure>I was considering to start a such contest xD
18:43<Sionide>on random, when you start?
18:43<@Bjarni>would use a bit more disk space though
18:43<Ailure>for fun
18:43<Sionide>Ailure, do it!
18:43<Sionide>loads of new features aren't represented in the titlescreen which is what i thought it was for..
18:43<@Bjarni>yeah, go for it
18:44<@Bjarni>and if it's started by a non-developer, it's way easier for us to do nothing if nothing good turns up
18:44<Ailure>mine probably would be rather boring for people with low resoultions
18:44<Ailure>since you would only see the forest xD
18:44<@Bjarni>just remember that the titlescreen shouldn't depend on newGRF
18:45<Sionide>Ailure, it's boring at your res, it needs to be busier than that... all stuff going on, all features shown (where possible obviously)
18:45<@Bjarni>yeah, it should work nicely with both 640x480 and 1600x1200
18:45<@Bjarni>testing the latter could cause issues for some people, but the first should be fairly simple to test xD
18:46<Ailure>reason I made my own titlescreen
18:46<Sionide>like the current one, there's always stuff going on and things moving around and that's cool
18:46<Ailure>was that the orginal titlescreen was way too busy for my taste
18:46<Ailure>It was fun at first
18:46<Ailure>but it get's old fast when you start OTTD often
18:46<Ailure>heck after awhile
18:46<@Bjarni>that's why having more than one and selection of one at random could be nice
18:46<Ailure>hearing the "ding ding ding ding *boat sound*" was the same thing as "Connection lost" for me
18:47<Sionide>Ailure, newgrf aside, yours doesn't show off any openttd features.. which i think the title screen should
18:48<Ailure>Well I didn't make that titlescreen to show off features
18:48<Ailure>mostly to please my eyes whenever I start OTTD D:
18:48<Ailure>I was considering to use a competly empty landscape instead
18:48<Ailure>with no civilization
18:48<@Bjarni>if it should have any chance of getting accepted as an official one, then it needs to be a showoff of features
18:49<Ailure>well I didn't say I would try making this a official titlescreen though :p
18:49<Ailure>and it should be possible to have more than one
18:50<Ailure>and talking about offical features
18:50<Ailure>it's kinda hard to showoff trams without using a newGRF
18:52<Eddi|zuHause2>i think at some point we should decide to extend the default set with some features
18:52<Ailure>I probably would use the generic tramset if I had to use one newGRF though
18:52<Eddi|zuHause2>like generic trams, or refittable trucks
18:52<Ailure>mostly becuse it's similar in style to the rest of the road vehicles and trains
18:52<Ailure>generic trams set seems to be the first "finished" tramset
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18:53<Ailure>Though there's a few promising tram sets of course
18:53<Ailure>they're just not done
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19:07<TrueBrain> <- night-fall :p (okay, blitter error)
19:08<Phazorx>that is ugly
19:09<Phazorx>hmm... does ottd uses static palette?
19:09<Phazorx>is it possible to have it changing with time?
19:09<TrueBrain>I believe there is a patch on the forum
19:10<Phazorx>so palette is static then
19:10<Ailure>technically it's cycling all the time when you're running the game
19:10<Ailure>well, expect for when the game is paused
19:10<Ailure>and haha that reminds me about that static night GRF
19:11<Ailure>though much crappier
19:11<Phazorx>cycling for animation?
19:11<TrueBrain>8bpp uses palette animation, changing palette colors over time
19:11<Phazorx>heh that reminds me of actual dosa games
19:11<Ailure>tha's a common trick in older games
19:11<Phazorx>TrueBrain: but is that global or per sprite?
19:11<Ailure>some NES games waterfall animation
19:11<Ailure>dosen't have any animation
19:11<Ailure>but is just palletecycled
19:12<Ailure>same thing for TT's water
19:12<TrueBrain>global, and depending on the sprite: per sprite
19:12<Phazorx>i tink MS went further with logos for W95-W98
19:12<Phazorx>actually XP's is same
19:12<Phazorx>236 colors + 20 shades for shifting :)
19:13<Phazorx>TrueBrain: i guess true night at engile level is not possible then
19:13<Ailure>had two palletes
19:13<Ailure>one for mars set and one for temperate
19:13<Ailure>the mars one didn't differ too much
19:13<TrueBrain>Phazorx: not really, as it would make windows darker too
19:13<TrueBrain>or that is what you like :p
19:13<Phazorx>however shaders might be helpfull if it ever gets to that level of rendering
19:13<Ailure>the pallete only changed color for the water/lava
19:14<TrueBrain>Phazorx: but for 32bpp, I might know some things ;)
19:14<Ailure>and there was a funny bug becuse o that
19:14<Ailure>if you set TTO animation to low
19:14<Ailure>then change graphics
19:14<Phazorx>what renderer 32bpp uses?
19:14<Ailure>you can have lava in temperate or water on mars
19:15<Phazorx>last time coopers tried T2M conversion - i had newwater on and it was used on mars
19:15<Ailure>in the mars conversion set
19:15<Ailure>the water dosen't cycle too well
19:15<Ailure>mostly becuse the mars water was just the temperate water with diffrent colors
19:15<Ailure>or mars lava
19:16<Phazorx>i tihnk that is not most concern - toyland hurts youreyes and eats your brain no matter how you wrap it
19:16<Ailure>I love seeing things from the old mars being recycled in TTD :P
19:16<Ailure>I was finding the tubular bridge unusually familiar first time I played TTD
19:17<Ailure>nice transparency
19:18<Phazorx>TrueBrain: so will it ever be possibel to use shaders for changing looks tho?
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19:18<TrueBrain>Phazorx: who knows :)
19:18<Phazorx>DS rendered would be nice
19:18<Ailure>and isn't that from the titlescreen?
19:18<TrueBrain>I think it is easy doable in 32bpp
19:18<Phazorx>actualy screw that
19:18<TrueBrain>8bpp won't be possible
19:18<Phazorx>hmm... why not in 8bpp ?
19:19<TrueBrain>as many palette colors are reused for other things
19:19<Phazorx>can some intermediate filter take care of scaling resulting picture to proper colour depth?
19:19<TrueBrain>see, for 32bpp we can just put a layer over the map, making it look darker
19:19<TrueBrain>or brighter
19:19<TrueBrain>but for 8bpp, we are very much limited in colors
19:20<Phazorx>well... i mean different aproach - play with generated image
19:20<TrueBrain>that is hard because of the windows
19:20<TrueBrain>still, on game level we only have 256 colors in 8bpp
19:20<Phazorx>arent windows use some predefined colors?
19:20<TrueBrain>not always, they use the same range as normal sprites
19:20<Phazorx>that is plenty
19:21<TrueBrain>not really
19:21<TrueBrain>or just make windows darker too
19:21<TrueBrain>might even look more cool ;)
19:21<Phazorx>that qill be ugly
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19:53<TrueBrain>my final piece of the puzzle :)
20:02<Sacro>a puzzle?
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20:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r10126 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r10111, FS#864): old_new_hash cache was not reset when the position hash were
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21:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r10127 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs):
21:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add: Addition of basic structure for industry tiles callbacks (unfinished).
21:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: ResolverObject receives member gfx, making it compatible for both industries and industry tiles
21:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: NewIndustryResolver now has his randombits and triggers (even if not implemented)
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 13 00:00:09 2007