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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-06-20

---Logopened Wed Jun 20 00:00:47 2007
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02:28<dihedral>good morning
02:28<dihedral>seems awfully quiet in here!
02:35<hylje>it is peaceful
02:36<dihedral>thats a way of putting it
02:37<Rubidium>the silence before the storm?
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02:46<|Gekkko|>I'm here
02:46<|Gekkko|>therefore the world will end
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03:45<Chris82>good morning
03:45<Chris82>is peter here? :)
03:45<Chris82>just read your reply:, unfortunately it didn't fix the issue :(
03:46<peter1138>you need to up the saveload version too
03:47<Chris82>I did so, the savegame was made with 66 so I set the CONDVAR to from 66 and the SAVEGAME_VERSION is now 67 in saveload.cpp
03:47<Chris82>but I still get the error
03:48<Chris82>this seems very odd anyway, which unknown tag can the savegame containt when the old setting was S (i.e. do not store in savegame)
03:49<peter1138>you need to set the CONDVAR to from 67
03:50<peter1138>as it didn't exist in 66
03:50<Chris82>ah ok :D
03:50<Chris82>let me try that
03:52<Chris82>perfect that did the job, thx for the quick help so early in the morning =)
03:53<Phazorx>hmm... can i profile ottd within mingw?
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03:58<Rubidium>depends on whether you can actually profile anything in mingw ;)
03:59<|Gekkko|>the windows version is MinGW?
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04:01<Chris82>Does anybody know how to change the default size of a window with the better graphs patch?
04:01<Chris82>The standard windows seem pretty tiny on a big screen when opened
04:02<Phazorx>Rubidium: that exactly is my question
04:03<Maedhros>Chris82: look for the static const Widget _<name> and WindowDesc arrays, and change the width and height there
04:03<Phazorx>|Gekkko|: yes, w32
04:03<Rubidium>Phazorx: sounds like a question for some mingw specialists and I don't think we've got them here
04:04<Chris82>thx, I think I found the correct line :)
04:04<Maedhros>Chris82: you'll have to change all the widget widths and heights too
04:04<Maedhros>yay for pixel-based guis ;)
04:05<Phazorx>yay for search and replace too :)
04:06<Chris82>+static const WindowDesc _history_window_desc = {
04:06<Chris82>+ WDP_AUTO, WDP_AUTO, 640, 256,
04:06<Chris82>I think this is the line for width and height?
04:06<Chris82>it should draw all of the graph windows since they all open with the same size by default
04:07<Maedhros>it should do, perhaps, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't ;)
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04:16<TheJosh>hey all
04:25|-|Nickman changed nick to Nickman^Away
04:28<Chris82>Maedhros: Haha well that partially did what I wanted, it only increased the size of the graph itself
04:28<TheJosh>hey i am just interested, whats the demographic of players using different operating systems?
04:28<Chris82>the window has still the same size, so the borders are smaller than the graph and also the title bar
04:30<Rubidium>TheJosh: very hard to determine; most Windows/OSX people download the binaries, most linux/unix users compile directly from subversion
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04:31<Biff>the linux-binaries takes some time to come out, so you often have to compile
04:32<Chris82>Rubidium: Then I am very constrasty to other people :D I am Windows fanatic, but I only compile OTTD myself :D
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04:33<Phazorx>i tihnk that is easy to determine amongsts active players by putting a poll on download page
04:34<Rubidium>Phazorx: doesn't work, because a lot of people (especially linux) compile straight from subversion and therefor never see that page
04:34<Phazorx>svn probably has stats too
04:35<Rubidium>don't think it tells you the operating system
04:36<Caemyr>Chris82: this is the whole beauty of open source software
04:36<Caemyr>to compile it yourself
04:37|-||Gekkko| changed nick to Gekkko
04:37<Caemyr>i`m also a WinNT fanboy, but i compile each new rev of ReactOS myself, even though it takes quite a lot of time...
04:37<Caemyr>i`m getting things ready to compile OTTD as well
04:38<Rubidium>setting up a working build environment under windows is pretty tricky, unless you use buildottd ofcourse
04:38<Caemyr>you have a building environment?
04:39<Caemyr>for win32/gcc?
04:40<Rubidium>well, a user made it. You can find it on the forum and
04:42<Caemyr>if only it works, i cant ask for more
04:42<Caemyr>what gcc can be used?
04:42<Caemyr>great thx
04:43<Rubidium>as long as it's gcc-2.95 or more, but 4 is probably best
04:43<Gekkko>can the Win32 version be compiled from GNU/Linux?
04:43<Caemyr>3.4.5 was pretty buggy
04:43<Gekkko>what about GNU/Hurd
04:43<Noldo>Rubidium: 2.95 might not be good if someone has used stdlib containers
04:43<Noldo>c++ stdlib that is
04:43<Maedhros>it works - the morphos port is compiled with it
04:44<Biff>Chris82: you compile windows yourself?
04:44<Rubidium>gcc 2.95 gives a big load of warnings though
04:45<Chris82>Biff: Yes ;) *jk*
04:45<Chris82>An operating system is nothing that should be open source.
04:45<Caemyr>i`m still amazed seeing what you`ve done with good old ttdlx
04:45<Biff>Chris82: why not?
04:46<Chris82>I am primarily absolutely against open source. Games like OTTD is something ok, but Open Source Anti Virus Tools, Firewall, or even Operating Systems, noooo way I am ever gonna use that.
04:46<Gekkko>Chris82: go away
04:46<Noldo>your loss
04:46<Biff>Chris82: so, if the source code of windows would be open, you would delete windows?
04:46<Chris82>Yes, then I'd use Mac OS X
04:46<Gekkko>Mac OS X is partly Open Source
04:46<Chris82>I don't like the idea of every hacker in the world knowing the source code of all software I use
04:46<Gekkko>under a BSD licence
04:47<Noldo>Gekkko: mostly even
04:47<Biff>Chris82: go on, delete it. its partly open source already, alot of students etc have access to the source code of windows
04:47<Gekkko>lol Chris82
04:47<Gekkko>reverse engineering
04:47<Gekkko>you wonder how you have your machine dying.
04:47<Noldo>Chris82: if it's well coded the source won't help
04:47<Chris82>I am computer science student, but it would be new to me that I get Windows Source Code access :D
04:47<Gekkko>seems that you are in the wrong profession
04:47<Gekkko>or going towards it anywho
04:47<Noldo>Chris82: is it's not well coded hiding the source won't help in protecting you
04:48<Gekkko>lol Noldo: Windows secret to security is the //fixme written all through out their source code
04:48<Gekkko>could you imagine Vista written in ASM?
04:48<Noldo>Chris82: And can you tell if windows is well coded?
04:48<Biff>i call troll :-)
04:49<Chris82>No I can't tell because I don't even have the skills to code anything even closely as complex as Windows.
04:49<Chris82>When I see the source I wouldn't be able to tell it as well :p
04:49<Biff>Chris82: more then 1 person makes a operating system
04:49<peter1138>worst argument ever against opensource
04:49<Gekkko>peter1138: agreed.
04:50<Gekkko>I believe in kick ban :)
04:50<Chris82>But speaking of source code, I gotta hurry to uni for my Java exercice :p
04:50<Biff>Gekkko: i belive in free speech
04:50<Chris82>Thanks :)
04:50<TrueBrain>@kick Gekkko I too believe in kicks
04:50|-|Gekkko kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [I too believe in kicks]
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04:50<TrueBrain>morning all
04:50<Chris82>I have nothing against people who like open source
04:50<Chris82>and I have nothing against Linux
04:50<Noldo>gekko belives in autorejoin
04:50<Chris82>it's just nothing that I want to use
04:51<TrueBrain>next time it is a ban for 2 minutes :p Mwhahahaha!
04:51<Gekkko>enjoy Vista Chris82
04:51<Chris82>I do :)
04:51<Gekkko><3 DRM
04:51<TrueBrain>Chris82: I have nothing against people who use Windows, I ust wish them good luck keeping it clean ;)
04:51<Biff>Chris82: so you propose that Windows is more secure then a Linux-based operating system?
04:51<Sionide>Chris82, you're *not* going to win this...
04:51<Noldo>Biff: now you are toning he down
04:52<Chris82>Depends on the user. If you're a computer noob a default Win Vista install is at least at a comparable level like Debian for example.
04:52<Chris82>And 99% of all computer users are noobs in my opinion.
04:52<Rubidium>Chris82: so you prefer an OS that no outsider can reviewed properly over an OS that can be reviewed properly by outsiders.
04:52<Chris82>I personally do yes, because I don't believe in all these calling home and NSA registry key theories =D
04:53<Biff>you dont belive in them, but noone can check it out
04:53<TrueBrain>Chris82: but you do suspect Open Source OSes doing that?
04:53<Chris82>I mean the Vista Firewall even blocks the Windows Activation in contrary to the XP Firewall, isn't that a nice improvement :D:D haha
04:53<Gekkko>I laugh at your communist theory.
04:53<Sionide>Chris82, you've got quite a misguided view of open source
04:53<Rubidium>nah, he believes that it is easier to exploit open source OSes than closed source OSes
04:54<Gekkko>I believe no matter what OS you're on, you're gonna get DoS'ed.
04:54<Chris82>That's more my point yes.
04:54<Gekkko>just depends on how your system copes
04:54<Sionide>Chris82, you're misguided, your view is based on nothing except your own assumptions and preconceptions..
04:54<Chris82>No OS calls home or anywhere unless you got hacked or didn't de-activate all this user experience crap which is not only in Windows.
04:54<Sionide>Gekkko, maybe not if you use Tor? :P
04:55<Chris82>It's based on my experience with a Linux Server for 7 years.
04:55<Gekkko>Sionide: lol go Tor
04:55<Gekkko>but I run a web server
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04:55<Gekkko>so no Tor for me
04:55<Chris82>Since I am no computer expert I got hacked 2 times! This didn't happen with my Win 2k3 Server yet which I have for about the same time.
04:55<TrueBrain>You can have a webserver and run Tor
04:55<Gekkko>noone try my IP, it's all closed right now
04:55|-|Nickman^Away changed nick to Nickman
04:55<Chris82>Although Windows is much less secure of course.
04:55<Gekkko>TrueBrain: didn't knwo that
04:55<Gekkko>Chris82: tell me again why you are doing BSc?
04:55<TrueBrain>Chris82: haha, that is a bad example to say OpenSource is worse over some Closed Source ;)
04:56<Chris82>Why is it bad?
04:56<TrueBrain>that you just protected your installion poorly ;)
04:56<Rubidium>Chris82: and what was the reason you've got hacked?
04:56<Sionide>Chris82, a friend of mine used to have the same view as you, that it must be easier to hack into open source because you can see the source code, it took me about 10 minutes to convince him otherwise but i'm not wasting my time doing the same for you
04:56<Chris82>Servers are something where Linux and Windows actually share a bigger market
04:56<Gekkko>Sionide: I thought it would be easier to hack too
04:56<Gekkko>but then I thought about it
04:56<Sionide>Gekkko, and saw the light
04:56<Gekkko>my own brain phases an argument
04:56<Gekkko>I <3 my brain
04:56<Sionide>Gekkko, the light of the bulb above your head going on, that is
04:56<Gekkko>it tells me things.
04:57<TrueBrain>Example: I manage around N windows servers, and 4 * N ^ 2 Linux servers... the Windows servers need to reboot about every month, and are magicly rebooted once in the 3months... the linux servers run for over a year (then I do a kernel update)
04:57<Chris82>Anyway gotta hurry to uni lecture starts in 15 mins :p
04:57<Gekkko>I haven't used Windows at all for 3 weeks
04:57<Chris82>we can continue this later ;)
04:57<TrueBrain>no, we want you to get late :p
04:57<TrueBrain>don't you see?
04:57<Gekkko>I had to use it for gaming :P
04:57<Sionide>Gekkko, 2 years, heh
04:57<Gekkko>Wine was insufficient
04:57<Chris82>haha then you don't know how fast I'm with my bike :p
04:57<Chris82>c ya l8er
04:57<TrueBrain>I want to see ;)
04:57<Sionide>Chris82, with IMglish like that - you'll never win an argument in your life!
04:58<Gekkko>TrueBrain: I love compiling a kernel
04:58<Gekkko>I find it exciting.
04:58<TrueBrain>@kick Sionide blablabla, now that is a nasty thing to say
04:58|-|Sionide kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [blablabla, now that is a nasty thing to say]
04:58<Gekkko>but I'm a weirdo.
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04:58<TrueBrain>Gekkko: it is nice to compile kernels in general :) Just not nice to reboot all the time on production servers ;)
04:58[~]Sionide keeps quiet
04:58<TrueBrain>clients do not like that ;)
04:58<Gekkko>that's true
04:58<Noldo>Gekkko: I find it exiting too, I never know when my computer reboots from overheating
04:59<Gekkko>I'm about to setup a shell company
04:59<Gekkko>a small one
04:59<Gekkko>Cookie Shell
04:59<Gekkko>bought teh domain and all.
04:59<eekee>\o ^^
04:59<TheJosh>i prefer bash
04:59<Gekkko>the best part is: AMD Duron 800mhz with 386mb ram
05:00<TheJosh>i had a computer once with 4mb or ram and a 25mhz processor
05:00<TheJosh>redhat 5, irc server
05:00<TheJosh>also ran samba and apache
05:00<eekee>A whole 25MHz?
05:00<TheJosh>dns name: 'snail'
05:00<TrueBrain>if it is an arm CPU
05:00<TrueBrain>you get a long way
05:01<TheJosh>or a 286 cant remember
05:01<TrueBrain>(only stating a MHz doesn't get you anywhere)
05:01<eekee>You won't run Linux on a 286
05:01<TheJosh>this was linux 2.0
05:01<TheJosh>if that needed a 386 then it was a 386
05:02<TheJosh>brb: chickent
05:02<TheJosh> it!
05:02<eekee>Yeah my first Linux was kernel 2.0.14 on an 8MB 486... 12MHz iirc, although I soom upgraded to 33MHz with VLB
05:02<Gekkko>do you think people will pay to use that system?
05:02<Gekkko>I don't limit what apps can be used
05:03<Gekkko>except nothing illegal
05:03<Gekkko>eggdrop, etc can be used
05:03<eekee>ooh, little bit maybe, ya
05:03<peter1138>did 486s ever come at 12MHz?
05:03<Gekkko>remote X for an extra $5 a month
05:04<eekee>peter1138: yep. In fact, this had a 15-MHz chip soldered in underneath the PSU, and someone had "upgraded" it with a plug-in 12MHz
05:05<hylje>heh, upgrades
05:07<eekee>I put X on it & stuff segfaulted constantly until I added another 4MB of ram much later, against dire warning to never have more ram than half your swap. It ran fine
05:07<TheJosh>3 doz eggs
05:08<TheJosh>average production for a day
05:08<Gekkko>time to attempt ripping cds in Linux
05:08<eekee>ah ^^
05:08<Gekkko>then I sadly have to reboot into Linux for iTunes.
05:08<hylje>no need to attempt
05:08<Gekkko>oh wait, I've got gtkpod.
05:08<TheJosh>reboot? what does that mean again? i forget
05:08<hylje>dd if=/media/cdrom of=/home/gekko/ripped-cd
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05:09<TheJosh>there are even tools for ripping audio to ogg
05:09<hylje>for the record, articulated tram
05:10<Gekkko>im using grip
05:10<Gekkko>im ripping with lame
05:10<Gekkko>it's for an iPod
05:10<Gekkko>iPods are lame.
05:10<TheJosh>ha ha
05:10<Gekkko>I use a Palm PDA for my music
05:10<Gekkko>everything on my PDA is Open Source
05:10<hylje>pda? music?
05:10<Gekkko>or freeware
05:10<Gekkko>or pirated.
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05:10<eekee>I wish my Zaurus hadn't broken
05:10<Gekkko>Palm TX is sexy
05:10<Gekkko>2gb SD card
05:10<TheJosh>i have a computer for my music
05:10<hylje>i has n9300
05:10<Gekkko>you cant go wrong
05:10<TheJosh>and an equaliser and 3 amps
05:11<TheJosh>serious home-made soundsystem,
05:11<Brianetta>openttd: command.c:529: DoCommandP: Assertion `res == res2' failed.
05:11<Brianetta>Server has exited
05:11<eekee>TheJosh: nice ^_^
05:11<TheJosh>i think res equals res2.
05:11<hylje>boo indeed
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05:11<TheJosh>eekee: thanks
05:11<dihedral>Brianetta: that looks nice
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05:12<TheJosh>one of my speakers died recently though. one of my real good loud bassy ones. works but is crap quality. may need a new driver :(
05:12<TheJosh>there goes $300 to $500 bucks
05:12<eekee>ahh :/
05:12<hylje>enjoy your sound systems
05:12<TheJosh>ill open it up and check its not just a loose conection or a dead crossover
05:13<TheJosh>when it was working it was awsome though. i tested it recently, 103 db
05:13<eekee>My comp's linked up to an old Toshiba amp that probably dates from the mid-80s. That feeds into speakers which aren't bad, but both the amp & the speakers have a warm somewhat muddy tone so together they aren't very good
05:13<TheJosh>concert volume in a room
05:13<TheJosh>eekee: cool
05:13<hylje>amps dont really obsolete
05:14<hylje>like computers do
05:14<TheJosh>im down to 2 tweeters at the moment till i work out this big speaker
05:14<eekee>^^ The alternative is my headphones, I got a pair of Sennheiser HD 590s I really like ^^ They have a sharp tone which balances the amp reasonably well
05:14[~]geoff_k uses old realistic reciever amp
05:14<TheJosh>hope it works again, its a real nice one
05:14<eekee>hylje: yeah... the big capacitors in them just blow up eventually ^^;
05:14<TheJosh>12 inch bass driver with a magnet about 15x15x15 cm
05:14<eekee>:O :D
05:15<hylje>cube magnet+
05:15<geoff_k>with 2 b&w studio monitors which dont actualy belong on it and htey sound too hard with the bass
05:15<eekee>aw mew
05:15<geoff_k>they belog on my nad amp realy but i no used it for some time in the livingroom which also has been used for a while
05:15<TheJosh>hylje: its mega. the amp on number 3 out of 10 things start shaking
05:15<Gekkko>can anyone upload their df to somewhere for me
05:15<Gekkko>I'm too lazy to compile one myself right now
05:16<Gekkko>and busybox is angrying me
05:16<TheJosh>i used to have them under the couch and play halo and the couch would vibrate
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05:16<eekee>Oh I HATE busybox lol
05:17<Gekkko>it is crappy as.
05:17<Gekkko>what is df part of?
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05:17<Gekkko>what gnu package
05:18<Gekkko>no it's not
05:18<eekee>I got my Z & I was all like, "Flipping heck, I had bash 2.0 & a FULL set of tools on an 8MB, 12MHz 486 and they worked FINE, & this thing has 16MB & a 166MHz ARM, and I'm stuck with this busybox crap???
05:18<Zr40>output of df --help:
05:18<Zr40>Report bugs to <>.
05:18<Gekkko>but I compiled coreutils
05:18<Gekkko>it wasnt in it
05:18<Zr40>so yes, it is
05:19<Zr40>which version?
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05:19<Zr40>I have 6.7
05:19<peter1138>eekee: linux is certainly bloated these days :(
05:20<Zr40>list contains df :)
05:20<TheJosh>you can always use LFS and then you can choose how bloated you want to make it
05:20<eekee>peter1138: I know. They put Gtk+ 2.0 in PDAs & apps take forever to start. It's horrible!
05:20<geoff_k>its bloated if you use ubuntu, i use slackware its not at all bloated runs well
05:20<eekee>TheJosh: I was gonna LFS my PDA. Never got round to it :J
05:20<eekee>$ gaze from `which df`
05:20<Gekkko>Zr40: I know
05:20<Gekkko>eekee: wht kiind of PDA
05:20<TheJosh>i started LFS but i got bored
05:21<TheJosh>and frustrated
05:21<eekee>Gekko Zaurus SL-5500, the bottom-line Zaurus, near-enough
05:21[~]SmatZ <-- Gentoo
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05:21<TheJosh>i put gentoo on a machine i made for my sisters
05:21<TheJosh>they wanted windows but i have no money
05:22<SmatZ>I tried LFS, but Gentoo sems easier to handle
05:22<TheJosh>Gentoo is good
05:22<TheJosh>plenty of control, but a heap easier than LFS
05:22<eekee>I LFS's from the old mini-howto, & from the sources on aSUSE dvd-rom because I didn't have internet, but eventually I got very frustrated. Used Gentoo for a bit & then went to Source Mage
05:23<Gekkko>Zr40: it wouldnt copy because "Text file busy"
05:23<Gekkko>so I rmed half of /bin
05:23<Gekkko>that fixed that
05:23<Zr40>Gekkko: "Text file busy"? I've never heard of that error.
05:24<Zr40>but even so, Linux allows deletion of in-use files
05:24<Gekkko>I love that
05:24<Gekkko>also it hotswaps files
05:24<Gekkko>I changed irssi and it didnt log me out
05:24<Gekkko>I was like WTF?!
05:24<eekee>I think I might have had that error once. Prolly deleting something in-use on a vfat fs
05:24<Zr40>Gekkko: that's what I said :)
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05:25<Zr40>but the running irssi isn't magically updated without restarting it
05:25<eekee>I do remember once beign unable to delete an in-use binary on an ext2 fs. That was wierd
05:26<Zr40>eekee: perhaps it was locked in a weird way.
05:26<eekee>ya guess so
05:26<Zr40>eekee: next time that happens, try lsof | grep filename
05:26<Zr40>replace filename, of course
05:26<Caemyr>eekee: the slowest 486 was 33mhz
05:26<eekee>never had much luck with lsof, but ty
05:27<Caemyr>no math coprocessor
05:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10233 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Fix: 8bpp-optimized encoder fucked up if 255+ pixels in a row were non-transparent (tnx boekabart)
05:27<eekee>Caemyr: Maybe that was the first one they brought out, but you're neglecting budget ones
05:27<Caemyr>and linux cant run 286 as this cpu is unable to run in protected mode
05:27<Caemyr>eekee: nope
05:28<TheJosh>there must be a way...a lot of source hacking
05:28<Caemyr>286 was 8-16 mhz
05:28<SmatZ>Caemyr: I have 486SX @ 25MHz
05:28<TheJosh>the programmign ethos: "Hack it till it works"
05:28<eekee>Caemyr: oh.. fook, I not only had 12 & 15 (or was it 16) MHz 486s, but I had and knew of many 25MHz ones. Check your facts :)
05:28<TheJosh>while (broken) { hackIt(); }
05:28<eekee>TheJosh: :D
05:29<Caemyr>look, 386 were 16-40mhz
05:29<Gekkko>GAH wtf
05:29<Gekkko>it mounted my ipod with trunticated filenames
05:29<Gekkko>lolol~1 crap
05:29<Gekkko>how do i fix thi
05:29<Caemyr>and 486 was the next gen
05:29<Zr40>Gekkko: fat filesystem?
05:30<Gekkko>should i precify that fact
05:30<TheJosh>tell it vfat
05:30<TheJosh>not msdos
05:30<Gekkko>now it font let me unmount
05:30<Gekkko>damn crappy crap apple
05:30<TheJosh>umount <dev>
05:30<Zr40>Gekkko: are you sure you mounted it as vfat as TheJosh says? only vfat supports long file names
05:30<TheJosh>mount <dev> -t vfat
05:30<eekee>Caemyr: stop working things out & check your facts. There is no logical accounting for marketting decisions, so that's the only way!
05:30<Zr40>Gekkko: blame microsoft, not apple
05:30<Gekkko>Zr40: i just said mount
05:30<Caemyr>25 mhz yeah
05:30<Gekkko>Zr40: iPod = Apple
05:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10234 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Fix r10233: make peter1138 happy
05:30<Zr40>Gekkko: linux picks the first working filesystem
05:30<Gekkko>vfat = MS
05:30<Caemyr>but 16?
05:30<Noldo>:D nice commit message
05:31<TheJosh>vfat is fat16/32 + long filenames
05:31<Caemyr>a 486 mobo wouldn`t work on such fsb
05:31<TheJosh>msdos is the same but not longfilenames
05:31<Zr40>Gekkko: if you use the iPod on Windows, it's formatted as fat32
05:31<Gekkko>it wont let me umount
05:31<Gekkko>even when i unplugged the ipod
05:31<Gekkko>"device busy"
05:31<TheJosh>format it ext3
05:31<TheJosh>close itunes
05:31<Gekkko>umount: forced umount of /dev/sdg2 failed!
05:31<Zr40>if you use it on Macs, it's formatted as hfs+
05:31<Caemyr>well nvm
05:31<Zr40>TheJosh: the ipod doesn't support that :)
05:31<TheJosh>hack it till it works
05:31<Gekkko>Zr40: yes it does
05:31<eekee>*shrug* No acounting for marketting folk :) Do remember though, that a 15 or 16MHz 486 would be about as fast, internally, as a 33MHz 386. I dont' think the average user cared that the bus would b slower, lol
05:32<Zr40>so it becomes an expensive storage medium
05:32<Caemyr>i surrender
05:32<Gekkko>ill return
05:32<Gekkko>because it wont umount
05:32<Zr40>Gekkko: what does dmesg say?
05:32<Gekkko>unless someone has an idea
05:32<Gekkko>how to really force it
05:32<TheJosh>unplug it
05:32<Gekkko>nothing of interest
05:32<Gekkko>TheJosh: I did
05:32<Gekkko>still wont umount
05:32<eekee>umount -f
05:33<Gekkko>i did
05:33<TheJosh>you cant unmount a removed volume
05:33<Zr40>umount -f *before* unplugging :)
05:33<Gekkko>I DID
05:33<Gekkko>i did it all
05:33<TheJosh>did you mount as root?
05:33<Gekkko>umount as root?
05:33<SmatZ>eekee: some of those UMC 80486
05:33<Gekkko>that should never be an option
05:33<TheJosh>i know its non-linux but it works
05:33<eekee>I really hate when stuff won't umount
05:33<TheJosh>modifiy mtab
05:33<Gekkko>how so
05:33<eekee>yeah, only thing you have to restart for, lol
05:33<TheJosh>remove the line then its not mounted
05:33<Zr40>TheJosh: that doesn't solve it
05:34<Zr40>TheJosh: especially on current kernels
05:34<Gekkko>lol TheJosh I did
05:34<Gekkko>lets try now
05:34<Zr40>as the kernel keeps an internal state of mount points
05:34<eekee>SmatZ: yeah, I think these chips were UMC...
05:34<Gekkko>plugging the ipod into this pc reset it
05:34<Zr40>mtab is for backward compatibility
05:34<Gekkko>Zr40: this is one backward linux
05:34<eekee>mtab has some info that /proc/mounts doesn't
05:35<Zr40>Gekkko: I mean, for really old linuxes
05:35<Gekkko>I know.
05:35<Gekkko>it worked though
05:35<Zr40>eekee: such as?
05:35<Gekkko>now gtkpod segfaults
05:35<Gekkko>I hate life.
05:35<TheJosh>restart dammit
05:36<Gekkko>I hate this
05:36|-|Gekkko [] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies]
05:36<TheJosh>or go to runlevel 1 then go back again
05:36<Zr40>that doesn't solve problems in the kernel
05:36<Chris82>back =D
05:36<eekee>Zr40: errrrr.. less than it used to :D but try this: cat /proc/mounts ; echo ; cat /etc/mtab
05:36<Chris82>I see your open source software works well today *g*
05:37<Chris82>I said I am quick on the bike :p
05:37<eekee>Zr40: also remember that /etc/mtab is POSIX, /proc/mounts isn't. The Un*x world is not confined to Linux
05:37<Zr40>eekee: what I said, compatibility
05:37<Zr40>eekee: the only difference I see is on the usbfs line in mtab
05:37<Chris82>This whole discussion is actually the bigger reason for me not to use Linux
05:37<Zr40>and usbfs is a linux thing :)
05:38<Chris82>if you already have problems with this what do you think would all the average users do?
05:38<Caemyr>Chris82: you spawned this discussion:P
05:38<Chris82>actually no
05:38<Chris82>well maybe a little
05:38<Sionide>Chris82, i don't have problems with mine.. mainly because i don't tinker with it an awful lot, so it doesn't break.. windows breaks if you tinker with it.
05:38<Caemyr>Windows users also seek help
05:38<Chris82>all I said was saying that I am Windows fanatic but compile OTTD myself instead of downloading bins :D
05:38<Caemyr>but they rarely can describe their problem properly
05:38<eekee>Chris82: eh, we didn't used to have problems before the Cult of the New got involved, and personally I blame megacorps like Microsoft fot the cult of the new
05:39|-||Gekkko| [] has joined #openttd
05:39<Caemyr>then said that you wouldn`t use open source OS
05:39|-||Gekkko| changed nick to Gekkko
05:39<Gekkko>hey hey
05:39<Caemyr>or any vital oss app
05:39[~]Rubidium has much more problems and issues getting Windows to compile OpenTTD properly than Linux
05:39<Chris82>yeah I know but what's wrong with it, some people don't use open source os'es, other's do :D
05:39<eekee>I get a bit nervous when people say "compatibility for older linuxes" as if a feature which has worked well since the beginning of UN*X is going away D:
05:39<Chris82>luckily we live in a free world where neither Windows nore Linux is forced on us
05:40<Sionide>Chris82, that's a joke... surely?
05:40<Gekkko>omg it's Chris82 again
05:40<Rubidium>so, if "amount of problems someone has with an OS" is a manner to determine whether noobs have issues with it, then noobs have more issues with windows than with linux
05:40<Chris82>haha :D
05:40<Chris82>yeah my lecture didn't take as long as I thought
05:40<Caemyr>unless you buy a pc and they force you to have windows with it
05:40<Gekkko>5 minutes?
05:40<Gekkko>you need to spend time studying
05:40<Caemyr>for which you pay no matter you want it or not;P
05:40<Gekkko>Chris82: you're German
05:40<Chris82>yes almost
05:40<eekee>I know a guy who quit his job because after acheiving impressive levels of efficiency with Linux, his boss suddenly forced Windows onto him
05:41<Caemyr>if not directly, then it`s included in the rig`s price
05:41<eekee>Caemyr: there's instructions for gettign the money back on your Windows licence, somewhere ont he web :)
05:41<Chris82>yeah a Dell with Windows the Win licence costs like 20 or 30 USD
05:41<Chris82>that's really not much
05:41<Caemyr>eekee: look at Vista
05:41<Sionide>Chris82, free software isn't just about the price
05:41<eekee>Caemyr: please don't make me ;.;
05:42<Caemyr>changing the component required you to purchase license again:P
05:42<Chris82>and as I said I also have nothing against open source in general
05:42<Gekkko>eekee: there is?!
05:42<Gekkko>I want a refund.
05:42<Chris82>little nifty tools, games like OpenTTD they are awesome
05:42<Caemyr>you have:)
05:42<Gekkko>and I'll still use a pirated product.
05:42<Caemyr>you state that opensource applications are easier to hack:)
05:42<Chris82>but an os, or an anti virus tool I want that closed source
05:42<eekee>Caemyr: I knooooow ;,,,,,; ;,,,,,,; I want to forget such evils exist in the world, pleeeeease!!!!!
05:42<Caemyr>which is 'complete bs'
05:42<Gekkko>Don't go there girlfriend
05:42<Sionide>Chris82, i'll say it again heh, your view is misguided
05:42<Caemyr>YOU MUST NOT
05:42[~]Gekkko clicks fingers 3 times.
05:42<Chris82>misguided by who?
05:43<eekee>Chris82: then you're either an idiot or you've never heard of a decompiler
05:43|-|Ammler [] has joined #openttd
05:43<Caemyr>i can see loads of pages
05:43<Sionide>Chris82, by your own assumptions and preconceptions
05:43<Caemyr>with WIN exploits
05:43<Chris82>I just speak from what I experienced with a Linux server for 7 years and then what I experienced with a Windows server for 6 years
05:43<Caemyr>why there arent such for linux?
05:43<Gekkko>gah gtkpod died.
05:43<Gekkko>f**k you gtkpod
05:43<Chris82>if there wouldn't be Linux exploits, there would be no hacked servers
05:43<Caemyr>you argue in cycles
05:43<Sionide>Chris82, you're not differentiating between "Linux" and "any other free software applications you might run"
05:44<Chris82>many are from PHP and such things, but still there are Linux stand alone servers hacked as well
05:44<Rubidium>Chris82: so, you got hacked twice with the Linux server? How were you hacked remains a valid question on whether the OS is to blame or the user or another application
05:44<Gekkko>if there wouldn't be Windows exploits, wouldn't get DoS'd so much
05:44<Sionide>Chris82, there are still windows stand alone server hacked as well...
05:44<Chris82>the root account was hacked because a logging process was faulty
05:44<Gekkko>Port sniffing doesnt discriminate OS
05:44<Chris82>I don't know the exact happenings
05:44<Caemyr>no matter if Linux or Windows
05:44<Chris82>if I would have known about the "hole" I would have closed it
05:44<Sionide>Chris82, so you didn't install security upgrades?
05:45<Caemyr>around 90% of hacking is successfull due to user being a noob
05:45<geoff_k>its not aways the OS's fault soemone hacks it, its offen down to poor admin skills by the user for which im no expert for sure
05:45<Chris82>I had an auto update function running
05:45<Chris82>I have no time remoting all day long just to see if there are any security updates
05:45<Caemyr>and leaving a gate wide open to their system
05:45<Chris82>yes I agree with that, most hacked servers are due to bad admin skills
05:45<Chris82>and not necessarily the OSes fault
05:45<Caemyr>like running Admin/root
05:45<Gekkko>whats a good way to use an ipod on linux?
05:45<Chris82>but in my opinion Windows is much easier to use than Linux
05:45<Rubidium>Chris82: what kind of logging process?
05:46<Chris82>and therefor less experienced users can achieve better results
05:46<Caemyr>Chris82: it is
05:46<Maedhros>Gekkko: gtkpod?
05:46<Chris82>if you're an expert Linux will work great for you
05:46<Gekkko>it keeps segfaulting
05:46<Caemyr>but it is not due to Windows being closed source
05:46<Sionide>Gekkko, gtkpod has worked for me in the past, other than that it just connects as an external usb disk..
05:46<eekee>I dunno about servers. I just seeeeriously expect my OS to come with some form of MINIMAL guards that make viruses VERY DIFFICULT to write come BUILT IN and NOT inconvenience me significantly. Linux inherited that from Un*x, who inherited that from other multi-user OSs, who had that kind fo protection IN THE 60s!!!!!
05:46<Chris82>but the vast majority of computer users are no experts
05:46<Caemyr>and Linux being opensource
05:46<Sionide>Chris82, have you tried ubuntu on a desktop machine?
05:46<Caemyr>Chris82: there will be an opensource Windows, do not fear
05:46<Sionide>Chris82, you don't need to be an expert to run ubuntu
05:46<Chris82>and my first days with Linux were awful.... please check this dependency there, this conflict there
05:47<Chris82>whenever I installed one single application I had to solve 10 conflicts and check 50 dependencies
05:47<Caemyr>yeah its hard
05:47<Chris82>I know that's not as bad anymore, but it just makes the system complicated and time consuming
05:47<Caemyr>but look at the average windows user
05:47<Sionide>Chris82, it takes me 2 or 3 clicks maximum to install an application -_-
05:47<Caemyr>looking for help
05:47<Gekkko>Chris82: FreeBSD?
05:47<Caemyr>"My system doesnt boot. What do i do?"
05:47<Chris82>I mean I don't care if my text writing app starts 0,1 sec slower on Windows when I save a few hours maintaining my system
05:47<Rubidium>Chris82: that's just a stupid application installer; a proper one would solve almost all of those issues for you
05:47<Gekkko>and open source windows is called ReactOS
05:47<geoff_k>there are many distros you can run without dependancy issues, i have had no dependancy problems for a long time
05:47<Chris82>FreeBSD? no I was using Red Hat
05:47<Gekkko>I was saying
05:48<Gekkko>it never required challenge
05:48<Gekkko>you said ports this
05:48<Chris82>and another problem I had in connection with the server I am running
05:48<eekee>Windows? Help? I think every Windows computer shop out there uses a different technical vocabulary, and little of it makes sense to someone who grew up knowing the its-and-bytes internals of computers
05:48<Gekkko>sounds like you live for proprietary applicaiton
05:48<Chris82>whenever I tried to upgrade PHP or something like this it caused massive headaches and I ended up with a broken system many times after such an upgrade
05:48<Gekkko>enjoy wasting your cpu cycles
05:48<Caemyr>WinNT has some good sides
05:48<Gekkko>this argument is redundant.
05:48<Rubidium>Chris82: under windows I would be needing a lot of time to check and update each and every application I've got installed. Under Debian you just do apt-get update && apt-get upgrade and it's done for you.
05:48<Chris82>when I want to upgrade PHP on my Windows Server I never had any problems
05:48<Gekkko>good night.
05:49<geoff_k>best way to avoid dependancy issues, is get a distro best fits your purpose i rely on 3 main distros to do things
05:49<Caemyr>best driver base ever existed
05:49<Gekkko>I'm not leavin
05:49<Biff>Chris82: apt-get dist-upgrade, and php is upgraded
05:49<eekee>oh lol
05:49<Chris82>yeah it works well in new Debian distros, I already said it's not as bad anymore
05:49<Chris82>that was a few years ago when I was using Red Hat and got crappy experiences with it
05:49<Rubidium>Chris82: define "new" please
05:50<Chris82>I just wanted to tell you where my "bad opinion" is coming from
05:50<eekee>fair enough
05:50<Gekkko>I love slapt-get
05:50<Sionide>Chris82, if you think it's that easy that hackers can look at the source code for my OS and hack into it, why hasn't somebody done it already? i've been running Ubuntu linux for 2 years ish, why hasn't somebody looked at the code and hacked into me yet?
05:50<Gekkko>it works with any OS
05:50<Chris82>new as in downloaded this year :D
05:50<Gekkko>i swear to go
05:50<geoff_k>i never upgrade either i rebuild services, but then my servers are on virtual machines
05:50<Gekkko>Sionide: because when someone abuses the source, someone patches it within minutes
05:50<Gekkko>thank God for Aspergers Syndrome
05:50<Chris82>Sionide, that's not an argument, I am running Windows for more than a decade and no one has hacked it as well
05:51<Chris82>normal desktop PCs are not hacked anyway unless a noob downloading dialers or stuff like that sits in front of it
05:51<Maedhros>err, no
05:51<Maedhros>my roommate once got a virus within 5 minutes of installing windows xp :p
05:51<Caemyr>but no windows
05:51<geoff_k>or installing a load of freeware from silly places
05:51<Rubidium>Chris82: I've been using Debian since 2000 and even in those days it worked like it works now
05:51<Maedhros>without doing anything himself
05:51<eekee>heh, you run anything like ssh, you can watch the attempts being made to crack your password in your logs
05:52<Chris82>Rubidium: Yeah Debian is much better than Red Hat anyway or Fedora as it is called now
05:52<Caemyr>eekee: better to watch it live
05:52<Gekkko>Chris82: you said you've been hacked twice
05:52<Caemyr>its quite funny actually
05:52<Chris82>on Linux yes
05:52<Chris82>not on Windows
05:52<Caemyr>i sometimes enable ftp server
05:52<Gekkko>high five for you
05:52<eekee>Caemyr: eh, no-one's got in in 2.5 years, or if they have they haven't found my system worth damaging
05:52<Gekkko>here's a clue: don't put ssh on port 22
05:52<geoff_k>eekee, you can use ssh keys to prevent logins without the key you can't then
05:52<Gekkko>don't put ftp on whatever it's port is
05:52<Caemyr>to see some jerks do dictionary attacks
05:53<Chris82>21 yeah
05:53<Rubidium>oh, and I've been running multiple servers for about the same time and I've never had any breakins
05:53<geoff_k>i dot use ftp its bad
05:53<eekee>geoff_k: interesting, ty
05:53<Caemyr>why not?
05:53<Gekkko>scp for the win
05:53<Sionide>my ssh runs one time passwords... pretty difficult to hack that, even though the source is as open as anything
05:53<Gekkko>and ftp is insecure
05:53<Gekkko>and takes 10 steps to transfer one file
05:53<Gekkko>its on some wiki
05:53<Gekkko>ill get the link
05:53<Caemyr>you generate 32 char password
05:53<Gekkko>passphrase is the best
05:53<Caemyr>and see them sweating over it
05:53<Chris82>well my passwords are definitely not the problem they look like #23sHH#323?sdHH
05:53<Gekkko>something like
05:53<Chris82>and change every 2 weeks
05:53<geoff_k>ftp transfers passwords unencrypted same goes for http always use https
05:53<eekee>I had pure-ftpd running for a long stretch & no trouble :D
05:53<Gekkko>It rains more on a Sunday than a Monday.
05:54<Chris82>I am running BulletProof FTP
05:54<Chris82>but I don't think that's open source
05:54<eekee>then again, it wsan't like, and advertised server, but I could watch access attempts in the logs ^^;;;
05:54<Caemyr>but i must say i`m quite pleased of my win2k3 standart
05:54<TheJosh>what are the paramters for the gui widget WWT_IMGBTN
05:54<Gekkko>Chris82: do you pay for your Windows
05:54<geoff_k>i use sftp and windows users can conect using winscp which is damn nice tool
05:54<Caemyr>it`s perfect as a desktop:P
05:54<Caemyr>faster than xp
05:55<Chris82>Gekkko: Sometimes. Depends on if I am using an MSDNAA version or something like Vista Ultimate.
05:55<Rubidium>FTP is broken by design when you need authentication (period).
05:55<Gekkko>By that I mean you don't pirate it.
05:55<Chris82>I don't mind paying for it, I get very good and virtually free telephone support for it.
05:55<Gekkko>Do you pirate software Chris82?
05:55<Chris82>Ack @Rubidium
05:55<Gekkko>Have you ever installed pirated software Chris82?
05:55<Chris82>Even my Photoshop is an original :p
05:55<Gekkko>lol idiot.
05:55<Caemyr>sincere at least
05:55<Gekkko>Do you realise that they are crammed with keyloggers?
05:56<Gekkko>and trojans and rootkits?
05:56<Chris82>Why? The Adobe Suite only costs 300 bucks for students
05:56<Maedhros>"only" ?!
05:56<Chris82>and I can remove it from my taxes
05:56<Gekkko>I love the use of only.
05:56<Caemyr>Gekkko: do you use windows?
05:56<TheJosh>i want to disable a WWT_IMGBTN
05:56<TheJosh>a button on the transperency gui
05:56<Chris82>I know that's not the right word, but I don't know how it is called
05:56<Caemyr>at all?
05:56<Gekkko>Caemyr: only at school, and even the I use PuTTY
05:56<hylje>Gekkko: pirate software is generally virus free
05:56<Caemyr>this is when a good antivirus comes in handy
05:56<geoff_k>Gekkko, try winscp
05:56<Caemyr>like Nod32
05:56<Gekkko>hylje: the crack isnt
05:56<Rubidium>Gekkko: using putty to telnet ;)
05:57<Chris82>well tell me one Open Source software that is even closely as user friendly and good as Photoshop and Dreamweaver and Premiere :D
05:57<Chris82>then I might consider using this software
05:57<Gekkko>Chris82: XaraXL
05:57<Caemyr>also a good IDS
05:57<Caemyr>like Jetico
05:57<Chris82>does it work on Windows?
05:57<Gekkko>yes yes and yes
05:57<hylje>Gekkko: the crackers, scene groups usually, never plant malware on their products; cracks, keygens
05:57<Gekkko>hylje: that's what they want you to think
05:57<Chris82>good joke hylje
05:57<Gekkko>how do you think they crack the serials in the first place?
05:57<Gekkko>they stockpile them
05:58<Chris82>my dad is one of these computer noobs going to a crack site and having ten viruses per week :D
05:58<hylje>you can of course get your cracks from dodgy sites
05:58<Caemyr>Gekkko: this is true
05:58<Gekkko>love the use of dodgy site
05:58<Gekkko>what kind of crack site isnt dodgy
05:58<Chris82>All crack sites are dodgy if you ask me :p
05:58<Gekkko>Pure cracks, courtesy of
05:58<Gekkko>affiliate of
05:58<Caemyr>depends where do you get the pirated stuff from
05:59<hylje>due to what the cracker groups are, they do not have official sites per se
05:59<Caemyr>but this is not the good topic for discussion
05:59<Gekkko>why pirate when you can use Linux
05:59<Gekkko>my pc boots in 20 seconds flat.
05:59<Chris82>Well I don't like pirated software
05:59<Chris82>I either buy it or use free software
05:59<Gekkko>not Linux
05:59<Gekkko>screw the kernel
05:59<Gekkko>any kernel is good.
05:59<Caemyr>Gekkko: did you buy TTDLX?
05:59<Chris82>I tried to use Sun OS once it looked really nifty, but nothing runs on it :D
05:59<geoff_k>Gekkko, i agree i have no need for cracked stuff, linux does everything *i* need which is quite a lot
05:59<geoff_k>i can do far more on linux than any windows box will let me
05:59<eekee>I'm more presonally inclined to screw GNU than the kernel :D
05:59<Chris82>Caemyr: Don't say you have a pirated copy of TTDLX =O =O
06:00<Gekkko>Chris82: do you realise how ancient that is
06:00<Chris82>Shame on you ;)
06:00<Caemyr>i`m asking Gekkko:)
06:00<Gekkko>Caemyr: my TTDX is DOS version
06:00<Gekkko>I'm just that hardcore.
06:00<Chris82>yeah I have the dos version on diskettes :D haha
06:00<hylje>i wouldnt really put abandonware under piracy
06:00<Chris82>good old times
06:00<Caemyr>when did you buy it?:)
06:00[~]geoff_k wants to try gnu/hurd, im in progress of making space to get the iso's
06:00<Sionide>Gekkko, pfft i'm got TTDO on floppy disk at home
06:00<Gekkko>like 8 years ago in a $5 rack :)
06:00<peter1138>i'd put abandonware under 'imagination' and 'figment of'
06:00<Caemyr>you are a Linux user arent you?:)
06:01<eekee>Peter's technically right :/
06:01<Sionide>woah let's not get into this debate though..
06:01<Gekkko>Linux stasi #1 Thu Feb 1 23:05:39 PUP 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
06:01<Chris82>that's your username?
06:01<hylje>box name
06:01<Sionide>Gekkko, get a kernal upgrade :P
06:01<Sionide>Linux sphinx 2.6.20-16-generic #2 SMP Thu Jun 7 20:19:32 UTC 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
06:01<Chris82>good name for a non calling home box :D haha
06:01<Gekkko>Sionide: make me
06:01<Sionide>Gekkko, make install you?
06:01<Sionide>lol -_-
06:01<Gekkko>you wouldnt dare
06:01<hylje>make love --not war
06:01<Gekkko>I'll nmap you
06:02<Sionide>Gekkko, i'll... traceroute you! zomg i'm such a l33t hacker :D
06:02<Gekkko>Sionide: NOES
06:02<TrueBrain>I smell 2 bans coming up...
06:02[~]Sionide quietens down again
06:02<Chris82>anyway let's end this debate and say nothing is better or worse, Linux and Windows both have its advantages and disadvantages and tastes are different, so this would be a never ending story :D
06:02<Gekkko>You'll find my secret stash of furniture porn!
06:02<hylje>your secret is out
06:02<Gekkko>Chris82: you can't win
06:02<Gekkko>only opensource can
06:02<Chris82>I don't intend to win.
06:03<Chris82>I want peace ^:D lol
06:03<Gekkko>as open source has more pros than cons
06:03<hylje>so you win.. by losing?
06:03<Chris82>not for me
06:03<Gekkko>Chris82: go back to the 70's
06:03<Gekkko>make love not war.
06:03<Chris82>too complicated and time consuming, the software that I need is not available, games don't run well
06:03<Maedhros>Gekkko: drop it, please...
06:03<Chris82>anyway I said let's end it
06:03<Biff>WAR=0 make love
06:03<Gekkko>but but but but
06:03<Rubidium>I'll guess I must get Gekkko's IP address and do a `iptables -A INPUT -s <Gekko's IP> -j MIRROR`
06:03<Rubidium>then he may try to hack me
06:04<Gekkko>I'm a lazy sod.
06:04<Gekkko>and if you hack me and erase everything
06:04<Gekkko>I won't die.
06:04<Gekkko>I have backups
06:04<Gekkko>backing up a 100mb partition isnt hard
06:04<Gekkko>easily done daily.
06:04<Caemyr>dvd-rw is a wondrous device
06:04<hylje>100mb? what?
06:04<Gekkko>you wanna hear insanity?
06:04<Gekkko>I use my pc in root.
06:04<TheJosh>how could I disable a button based on a patch optoin?
06:04<hylje>you pervert
06:04<Gekkko>no user accounts whatsoever
06:04<Rubidium>Gekkko: question is how long you keep those backups
06:04<eekee>oh ah, that's bad! lol
06:04<Caemyr>Gekkko: its ok if you know what you do
06:04<Gekkko>Caemyr: I know what I do.
06:04<hylje>no it isnt
06:05<Caemyr>this is my point
06:05<TrueBrain>it is never okay
06:05<TrueBrain>software have bugs
06:05<Gekkko>noone gives me reason why running root is bad
06:05<hylje>humans are by definition stupid
06:05<Caemyr>Gekkko: i`m better
06:05<TrueBrain>software as root user with bugs means trouble
06:05<geoff_k>lvm snapshots are good for backing up volumes
06:05<eekee>what, and computers aren't? :D
06:05<Caemyr>i`m running admin account on my win2k3 desk right now
06:05<Gekkko>TrueBrain: backups = no trouble
06:05<hylje>thats because you can't run windows as user
06:05<Caemyr>you can
06:05<Chris82>Sure you can
06:05<TrueBrain>Gekkko: depends how long you keep backups
06:05<hylje>why dont you then
06:05<Gekkko>running Windows as user is like killing yourself with a spoon
06:06<Chris82>but then it's as complicated as Linux to work with it :D lol
06:06<Caemyr>why should i?
06:06<hylje>hence you can't
06:06<Caemyr>Gekkko: more like a chopstick
06:06<Gekkko>Chris82: Wine is perfect for playing games.
06:06<hylje>if its possible but not usable, it doesnt exist
06:06<Chris82>Is it better in the meantime?
06:06<Caemyr>Gekkko: lawl
06:06<Gekkko>I ran NWN on a Voodoo3 using Mesa
06:06<Chris82>I have used it a few years ago the last time
06:06<eekee>haha perfect
06:06<Gekkko>thats 8mb
06:06<geoff_k>my fav games are opensource linux/windows so im happy
06:06<Caemyr>try to play online server with Pb
06:06<Gekkko>the minimum is 32mb
06:06<Chris82>do games like Oblivion work with it?
06:06<TrueBrain>hylje: you are opssible, but not usable, so you don't exist... cool!
06:06<hylje>TrueBrain: oh yes
06:06<Gekkko>geoff_k: Alpha Centauri :D
06:07<TrueBrain>use Cedega
06:07<Chris82>or Supreme Commander?
06:07<geoff_k>i like freeciv
06:07<hylje>cedega sucks
06:07<eekee>I kinda miss Alpha Centaurii
06:07<Gekkko>geoff_k: I'm not fond of it
06:07<TrueBrain>cedega runs more games than wine
06:07<Gekkko>eekee: it has native Linux support
06:07<TrueBrain>at least it runs HL2 :)
06:07<Gekkko>I downloaded it recently
06:07<Gekkko>you can't buy it anywhere
06:07<hylje>wine gets better all the time, but it already runs all the games and little utilities i may need
06:07<Gekkko>I mean anywhere.
06:07<Chris82>didn't you have to pay for WINE anyway ?
06:07<hylje>so i dont really care
06:07<geoff_k>only this game and freeciv i ever play these days
06:07<eekee>Gekko: I know, looked for it on ebay once; nothing
06:07<hylje>Chris82: no
06:07<Gekkko>I <3 .torrents
06:07<Caemyr>hylje: but there are still plenty of games that they cant run
06:08<hylje>not that many really
06:08<Caemyr>also sometimes new revisions dont run games that earlier revisions could
06:08<eekee>I kinda prefer openttd to freeciv. I feel violent when I play most strategy games :D I'm kinda bipolar, I even find myself wantign to get too compettitive in OpenTTD
06:08<Chris82>Cedega: nVidia GeForce class video card (recommended) are they serious?
06:09<geoff_k>opensource roller coaster tycoon would be good, but its not got much potential for multiplayer
06:09<Chris82>=O What about ATI? lol
06:09<Gekkko>Chris82: ATi is easier to install, but has lesser features
06:09<hylje>ati works, but at the moment ati drivers suck
06:09<eekee>Chris82: Yeah, nVidia has better opengl support as far as I gather
06:09<Gekkko>I have both nvidia and ati
06:09<Chris82>ewwww OpenGL *g*
06:09<Caemyr>ati driver sucks?:)
06:09<Gekkko>my nvidia 64mb is better than my ati 128mb
06:09<Zr40>what's ewwww about OpenGL?
06:09<Caemyr>you should check it on windows
06:09<Gekkko>i get 16 fps on my ati
06:09<Chris82>that was a joke :p
06:09<Gekkko>50 on my nvidia
06:09<Gekkko>its flawed.
06:09<Caemyr>ATI is better in dx than ogl
06:09<hylje>Chris82: you are succumbed to MS FUD about ogl
06:10<Caemyr>still has issues with ogl
06:10<eekee>Chris82: lol, whot, you meen using Windows drivers that disable OpenGL acceleration or something? :D
06:10<Caemyr>but nvidia drivers hack kernel so much on NT
06:10<Chris82>well on Vista ATI performance is great for D3D games, OpenGL sucks of course
06:10<Caemyr>you can get BSODs regularly
06:10<Chris82>anyway, is there a compatibility list for Cedega somwhere?
06:10<Gekkko>LOL BSOD
06:10<hylje>vista gfx driver architechture sucks
06:10<Chris82>BSOD? Never saw one on Vista, I already doubt they exist *g*
06:10<Caemyr>Chris82 start with opengl sucking on vista, big time
06:10<Gekkko>look at that
06:10<Chris82>Well, it makes things slower that's true
06:11<Gekkko>tis amusing
06:11<Chris82>but it also reduces crashes
06:11<Caemyr>Chris: nope
06:11<Chris82>for me it does
06:11<Caemyr>comparing to XP they moved whole Dx to usermode
06:11<Caemyr>from km
06:11<Gekkko> <-- BSOD lolol
06:11<Chris82>The Catalyst drivers and Logitech webcam drivers causes massive bluescreens on XP
06:11<Chris82>they don't do on Vista
06:11<Caemyr>Chris82: in your dream
06:11<Zr40>Chris82: then why am I not getting them?
06:11<Caemyr>Nvidia drivers=yes
06:11<Chris82>anyway, I am searching for a compatibility list for Cedega
06:12<Caemyr>not ati
06:12<Chris82>I wanted to check if my games run with it so I can test it
06:13<eekee>Chris82: check
06:13<geoff_k>another game i'd like is something like age of Empires II on linux, few patches to something like that i'd be addicted
06:13<Gekkko>Chris82: I do believe your XP was screwed over by the confederacy
06:13<Ailure>[13:09] <Gekkko> <-- BSOD lolol
06:13<eekee>(or .net <_< it's been a while)
06:13<Ailure>I assume that's some kind of screensaver?
06:13<Chris82> (12 months; 55 USD annually; one month free) =O
06:13<Gekkko>Ailure: no, just a superimposed error for an error
06:13<Chris82>do I read that wrongfully? or do I have to pay 55 USD a year to use it
06:13<Gekkko>but there is a bsod screensaver
06:13<Ailure>oh well
06:13<Gekkko>that's funny
06:13<hylje>you can pirate it just fine
06:13<Zr40>Chris82: no. You pay $55 for updates
06:13<Gekkko>looks like your pc rebooting over and over
06:14<Chris82>What is the price to initially buy it then?
06:14<eekee>yeah.. I... uh... foud wine + cracks to run several games that cedega wouldn't <_<;
06:14<hylje>wine is better than cedega
06:14<Zr40>Chris82: $15 (three months of updates)
06:15<hylje>all that's in for cedega is the proprietary copyprot support
06:15<Gekkko>here's something fun
06:15<Chris82>That's a bit expensive.
06:15<Gekkko>google crack.exe
06:15<Gekkko>download it
06:15<Gekkko>run it in wine
06:15<Gekkko>amusing results
06:15<Gekkko>seeing a trojan cave into itself
06:15<hylje>but wine is doing the lower-level approach, eventually supporting native copyprot
06:15<Chris82>Buying cedega doesn't really make sense imho, you can simply buy an OEM XP to play games as well :p lol
06:15<hylje>eject it
06:16<Chris82>iPod is Mac optimized didn't you know :p
06:16<Zr40>Gekkko: I assume you haven't rebooted yet
06:16<Gekkko>i did
06:16<Chris82>and it's still there?
06:16<eekee>Gekkko: Just reboot :/ umounting is one of Linuxes weakest points, IMHO
06:16<TheJosh>does gtkpod have a remove thingo?
06:16<hylje>Chris82: but that involves rebooting all the time
06:16<Gekkko>dont think so
06:16<Gekkko>eekee: i did reboot
06:16<Chris82>You mean XP involves rebooting?
06:16<Gekkko>lol #openttd is better than ##linux on freenode
06:16<Chris82>since when do I need to reboot for games
06:16<Gekkko>you dont get kicked for asking amusingly noobish questions
06:16<TheJosh>ipods have big cahces on them. if you transfer songs, it returns immedietly, but is still transferrign
06:17<eekee>Not necessarily. VMware or Qemu or soemthing like that may help, but drivers may be an issue
06:17<Caemyr>years ago maybe
06:17<TheJosh>Gekko: have you tried hacking?
06:17<Gekkko>TheJosh: the little spinny thing on it isnt doing the spinny thing
06:17<Gekkko>TheJosh: using mtab
06:17<TheJosh>poor spinny thing
06:17<TheJosh>i feel sorry for it
06:17<TheJosh>it cant spin
06:17<Gekkko>because it's an apple gif?
06:17<Gekkko>I've hacked ipods muchly.
06:17<eekee>Gekkko: do you have an automounter running?
06:18<Gekkko>eekee: nope
06:18<TheJosh>killall *
06:18<Gekkko>I'm too hardcore for udev
06:18<TheJosh>rm -rf /
06:18<TheJosh>init 6
06:18<Gekkko>killall -9 *
06:18<Gekkko>lol init 6
06:18<Gekkko>teh sex right there
06:18<Gekkko>teh sex.
06:18<Rubidium>kill -9 -1
06:18<Chris82>well SupCom has bugs with Cedega and Oblivion doesn't work at all, checking WINE :D
06:18<TheJosh>sudo rm -rf ./
06:18<Gekkko>OH FFS
06:18<Gekkko>I KNOW WHY
06:18<Gekkko>it's busybox mount
06:18<Gekkko>that makes me angered in so many ways
06:18<hylje>enjoy your uid=0
06:19<Gekkko>I'm gonna nuke it
06:19<Gekkko>i've got normal mount compiled
06:19<Gekkko>just gotta install it
06:19<TheJosh>NUKE IT
06:19<Gekkko>i lied,.
06:19<Gekkko>I don't have mount
06:19<Chris82>Oblivion doesn't work with WINE as well
06:19<TheJosh>d.*s boot and nuke
06:19<Chris82>pity :D
06:19<Gekkko>it's a crappy game.
06:20<Chris82>I like it
06:20<Gekkko>Real men don't play games.
06:20<eekee>real men are scary
06:20<Caemyr>dont play "crappy" games
06:20<Chris82>real men watch porn instead ?
06:20<Gekkko>thats why i used " "
06:20<hylje>oblivion barely worked on windows :\
06:20<Gekkko>real men watch porn while play OTTD while compiling
06:20<Chris82>well it works fine for me
06:20<Caemyr>define barely
06:20<eekee>lololol Gekkko
06:20<Gekkko>NWN2 at 17fps rocks my sox
06:20<hylje>memoryleaked like crazy
06:21<Caemyr>nwn sux
06:21<TrueBrain>UT2003 works with Wine, nuff for me :)
06:21<Chris82>well that has nothing to do with Windows
06:21<Chris82>that's a bug in the game
06:21<hylje>it still didnt quite work
06:21<Caemyr>poor programming
06:21<hylje>stop defending your poor platform
06:21<Chris82>yeah the first version was ugly, but the patches fixed it
06:21<eekee>SL memory leaks like steenk
06:21<Caemyr>who is poor here?
06:21<eekee>sorry <_<;
06:21[~]Chris82 gives money :D
06:21<Caemyr>begging for drivers
06:21<Gekkko>you better
06:21<eekee>Yay! <3 *hugs* XD
06:22<Chris82>I go play a real game now
06:22<Chris82>OTTD that is :D
06:22<Gekkko>Dual monitors
06:22<Gekkko>removes the need to "multitask"
06:22<Gekkko>also makes a nice playing field for OTTD
06:22<Caemyr>at least we can agree to one thing
06:22<Caemyr>OTTD rox
06:22<Gekkko>2048 x 768
06:23[~]eekee refrains from comments abotu Windows multitasking :D
06:23<Gekkko>can see an entire map
06:23<Chris82>OTTD is bringing the people together and works on every platform :D
06:23<Gekkko>eekee: I HATE IT
06:23<Caemyr>please refrain
06:23<Gekkko>SO VERY VERY MUCH
06:23<hylje>i use ottd on a 800x600 window
06:23<Gekkko>that's one reason I use Linux
06:23<hylje>out of a 1600x1200 desktop
06:23<Gekkko>it supports multiple monitors properly
06:23<Gekkko>Windows chokes at the concept
06:23<Gekkko>and shits up the walls
06:23<Gekkko>gets set loose in a padded cell
06:23<Gekkko>and still finds a way to kill itself
06:23<hylje>which is for the record larger than Gekkko's
06:23<eekee>hylje: I play in 800x600 & in 1680x1050, depending on whether I'm in bed or at the desktop lol
06:24<Chris82>try on windows
06:24<Chris82>that's a nifty tool
06:24<Gekkko>hylje: it's one monitor
06:24<Gekkko>and it isnt "bigger"
06:24<Gekkko>the resolution is higher
06:24<hylje>it is
06:24<Gekkko>therefore on a screen, it's smaller
06:24<hylje>resolution defines the viewing area
06:24<Caemyr>Gekkko: Linux feels Win just behind its back, this is why you penguinistas get so aggresive about it
06:24<Gekkko>but its not seen bigger
06:24<Gekkko>its showing more
06:25<Chris82>I agree with you about that Caemyr :)
06:25<Gekkko>Caemyr: Linux has nothing to do with my argument
06:25<Chris82>but Mac users are even worse
06:25<Gekkko>I don't give a flaming shit about the kernel, I <3 GNU
06:25<hylje>technically superior OS zealots are generally bitter
06:25<Chris82>It's really seldom that I hear Windows users bashing "others", I can't say that for many Maccies
06:25<Caemyr>Gekkko: XP had the similar ambience when it appeared
06:25<hylje>windows users are apathetic
06:26<Caemyr>hylje: linux users even more
06:26<Gekkko>hylje: not true >_>
06:26<Gekkko>they bash people
06:26<hylje>linux (and mac) people tend to be more aware of their stuff
06:26<Caemyr>not true
06:26<eekee>Yeah, the average Windows user may be pleasantly apathetic, btu there are enough... eh...
06:26<Caemyr>especially for Mac users
06:26<hylje>"omg, this sucks"
06:26<Chris82> they should go to RIAA and complain about DRM
06:27<Chris82>not to Microsoft
06:27<hylje>its not like they havent tried
06:27<hylje>riaa just wants their monies
06:27<hylje>not particularly happy customers
06:27<Caemyr>who doesnt
06:27<hylje>open source? :p
06:27<hylje>consulting business moreso than intellectual property
06:27<Zr40>"Even when you legally buy Vista, you don't own it." <-- that's the case for XP, 2000, 98, 95, 3.11, ...
06:27<Caemyr>like red hat?
06:27<Chris82>How does Open Source enable you to listen to music that is otherwise DRM protected?
06:27<Chris82>that's no solution :p
06:28<eekee>Caemyr: people who don't think that MORE MORE MORE MORE is the only way? In other words, sane people?
06:28<Chris82>unless you pidate the Music of course
06:28<hylje>you crack the DRM usually legall
06:28<Chris82>but I don't want to do that, I'd rather fight for fair prices
06:28<Caemyr>eekee: not
06:28<Chris82>I mean 1 USD for one track is insane
06:28<TheJosh>Gekkko: work it out?
06:28<Caemyr>but when i hear someone trying to convince me
06:28<TheJosh>me off
06:28|-|TheJosh [] has left #openttd []
06:28<Caemyr>that running closed source app is bad because it limits my freedom
06:29<Caemyr>i want to smack such person so hard he gets into orbit
06:29<geoff_k>before we know it linux could well be packed with drm
06:29<Gekkko>I hate how cd's dont automount
06:29<Gekkko>thats the only thing i hate
06:29<Gekkko>yes udev supports that
06:29<Gekkko>but i dont support udev
06:29<hylje>Gekkko: set up udev+hal
06:29<hylje>enjoy your technical inferiority, and dont whine about it
06:29<Gekkko>oh wait
06:29<hylje>you got your choice
06:29<Gekkko>it does automount
06:29<Gekkko>holy crap
06:29<eekee>i'm not quite that evangelical any more.
06:29<Gekkko>i dont even have udev
06:29<hylje>Caemyr: you get inherently more choices to yourself with open source
06:30<geoff_k>watch out for trusted computing when that tech finaly kicks in, sounds scarey
06:30<hylje>Caemyr: closed source is very much lock-in, and that's not always fun
06:30<Caemyr>closed-source is one of those choices
06:30<hylje>the fun thing about that is the lock in
06:30<Caemyr>and any attempt to limit it is limiting my freedom
06:30<hylje>you have much less choices then
06:31<Caemyr>i can run open source apps on windows as well
06:31<hylje>but closed source apps lock you to windows
06:31<Caemyr>no one locks me to windows
06:31<Caemyr>its my consent choice
06:32<hylje>well it *is* a choice to limit later choices..
06:32<Zr40>Caemyr: so you run your financial administration on Windows, your games on Windows, your whatever on Windows
06:32<eekee>your consent choice to use things that are only available for Windows? That's the lock-in ;)
06:32<Zr40>then you decide to use Linux
06:32<Zr40>or Mac OS
06:32<Zr40>or BSD
06:32<Caemyr>i could use linux
06:32<Caemyr>for everything i need my pc for
06:32<Zr40>you're still bound to Windows because of the financial administration software, the games and the whatever
06:32<Caemyr>i dont play newest games
06:33<Caemyr>what financial administration software?
06:33<Zr40><Zr40> Caemyr: so you run your financial administration on Windows, your games on Windows, your whatever on Windows
06:33<Zr40>that is an example.
06:33<Zr40>I don't know what you actually run
06:33<Caemyr>i can count my taxes on whatever os i choose
06:34<Caemyr>Zr40: this is why i support ReactOS
06:34[~]Chris82 repeats
06:34<Chris82>anyway let's end this debate and say nothing is better or worse, Linux and Windows both have its advantages and disadvantages and tastes are different, so this would be a never ending story :D
06:34<Caemyr>freedom is the possibility to run everything as YOU want
06:34<Caemyr>you want only opensource?
06:34<Caemyr>why not
06:35<Caemyr>you want other combination? please do
06:35<Zr40>Caemyr: the problem with closed source software is that if you want to change the OS you're using, you can't use the closed source software anymore
06:35<Caemyr>forcing someone to run only opensource is as bad, as forcing to run only closed source
06:35|-|SmatZ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:35<hylje>your logic has the flaw that closed source forces a certain combination, in most cases
06:35<Zr40>Caemyr: I'm not forcing anything, nor do I want to
06:35<geoff_k>im 100% linux user but i'd windows has far better friendly office tools, and works good i large scale office desktop environment
06:35<Caemyr>hylje: for now
06:35<Gekkko>I'm back
06:35<Caemyr>this is why WINE is being done
06:35<Gekkko>I <3 Abiword and Gnumeric
06:36<Caemyr>or dosbox
06:36<Caemyr>or ReactOS
06:36<Gekkko>don't need Microsoft Bloatware
06:36<Gekkko>nor Linux Bloatware
06:36<Chris82>argh I hate it when people release patches, and don't compile them to find a simple missing ; :D lol
06:36<Gekkko>just pure miniature open source word processor
06:36<Gekkko>please no Mr. Hacker
06:36<Gekkko>dont look at the source
06:36<Gekkko>OH NOES HE DID.
06:36<Gekkko>Mr Aspergers is here to save the day
06:36<Gekkko>for no apparent reason.
06:36<Caemyr>as i told before
06:37<Zr40>Gekkko: wtf?
06:37<Caemyr>i heard some open source fanboys bashing WINE and ROS
06:37<eekee>yeah some will
06:37<Caemyr>because they think those projects harm opensource
06:37<Zr40>Caemyr: their logic is flawed.
06:37<eekee>it's the Firefox fanbois that make me laught the most
06:37<Caemyr>becasue they make people perceive closed source apps as not that bad
06:37<Caemyr>yes it is
06:38<Gekkko>I love Opera though
06:38<Caemyr>Gekkko: i second to that
06:38<Gekkko>The only reason I believe it's not open source is because it's using QT commercial
06:38<Gekkko>as QT Open Source isnt the best thign I've seen
06:38<geoff_k>i like opera but its seems to have issues with flash on me so i don't use it
06:38<Gekkko>I hate dillo
06:38<Zr40>Gekkko: as it happens, the company I work for uses Qt
06:38<Gekkko>i'd rather use elinks
06:38<Gekkko>which i do use
06:38<Gekkko>rather often.
06:38<geoff_k>dillo is aweful
06:38<Caemyr>Opera <3
06:38<Gekkko>Zr40: I love how KDE looks
06:38<Gekkko>I love KDE apps
06:39<Gekkko>I hate KDE libs
06:39<eekee>I'm using Firefox simply as my current Brower of Least Annoyance, & it's a pain, mew
06:39<Caemyr>espeacially page content blocking
06:39<Gekkko>I hate KDE WM
06:39<Zr40>Gekkko: Qt Open Source isn't any different from the commercial version, it's just the difference of support
06:39<Caemyr>i have most of the flash ads blocked out
06:39<eekee>KDE WM you dont' have to use, but the libs I dunno
06:39<hylje>Zr40: and viral licence
06:39<Zr40>hylje: that too.
06:39<Gekkko>Zr40: well, I wouldnt know since I don't use commercial version
06:39<Gekkko>what's the viral licence
06:39<geoff_k>i use flash for my own chat clet on my own chat server otherwise i'd not be using it
06:39<hylje>you link against GPL, you better comply with it
06:40<hylje>hence if you link against GPL Qt, your app needs to be GPL too
06:40<Gekkko>LGPL is BSD-esque
06:40<Zr40>hylje: but only if you release the app
06:40<hylje>that was an example
06:40<hylje>but yes
06:40<hylje>compliance is needed tho
06:41<eekee>I like Torvald's policy for the kernel: GPL 2, & GPL 2 only, none of this letting Stallman dictate your future policy, for all he's done for OSS
06:41<eekee>lol, I like YouTube & other flash-based video sites, that's the only reason I have it
06:42<eekee>hylje: ah yeah, ty
06:42<Zr40>eekee: that's incorrect. Torvalds chose for GPL2-only because you can't be sure what's in GPL3. For it might allow, in theory, unfree things.
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06:42<Caemyr>we are still waiting for Sun
06:42<eekee>Zr40: He's sticking with GPL-2 in the face of the current GPL-3
06:42<Caemyr>if Sun goes gpl3...
06:42<Gekkko>Zr40: how many drafts have there been of gpl3
06:42<geoff_k>there is a lot of worry about GPLv3 and possibility of DRM
06:42<Zr40>eekee: because it's not been finalized yet.
06:42<Gekkko>how many appendings and edition
06:43<Zr40>Gekkko: I know. But when the kernel was released, there were no GPLv3 drafts yet
06:43<eekee>Zr40: no, he's written a couple of essays sayign that while he doesn't like DRM, he doesn't feel it's his right to limit end-users choice in the matter.
06:43<Zr40>eekee: did he write them before or after the first v3 draft?
06:44<Gekkko>maybe torvalds should make a GPL-compatible LPL
06:44<Gekkko>Linux - General Public Licence
06:44<Gekkko>even easier.
06:44<eekee>Zr40: ugh.. okay, I didn't check that properly, but I kinda assumed after. Was there anythign in the first draft that might have softenned it?
06:45<geoff_k>if linux give drm in furture i will start supporting gnu/hurd, im looking at starting anytime i want to be prepared
06:45<eekee>I think if your license is a public license there's no need to add the general tag
06:45<Gekkko>geoff_k: I plan to use Hurd as soon as it's stable
06:46<geoff_k>Gekkko, same here as much as possible
06:46<Zr40>eekee: v3 introduced limitations on DRM. v2 doesn't mention it, as that didn't exist back in 1991.
06:46<Gekkko>Zr40: so you mean you cant use GPL with DRM products?
06:46<Gekkko>I support that.
06:46<geoff_k>i haven't looked at it yet but i agree with its policy
06:46<Zr40>Gekkko: I didn't state that.
06:46<Gekkko>I'd support that*
06:46<eekee>geoff_k: DRM could technically cover companies in-house security systems for their in-house development, as I understand it. That's causing at least a little worry about the gpl3
06:46<hylje>Gekkko: more like DRM'd linux kernel
06:47<geoff_k>yeah eveil stuff
06:47<Gekkko>explain exactly.
06:47<Gekkko>it disallows DRM
06:47<Gekkko>or forces it
06:47<hylje>its open source, but you can't modify it
06:47<geoff_k>thisd says everything
06:47<Gekkko>geoff_k: one problem is GNU/Hurd is GNU's kernel
06:47<Zr40>hylje: that's nonsense. If it's open-source, you can just remove the DRM parts.
06:47<Gekkko>meaning it will be gpl3
06:47<Gekkko>so if it goes all eww on us...
06:47<Gekkko>we don't really have any place toog
06:47<Gekkko>to go*
06:47<geoff_k>yeah true
06:48<hylje>Zr40: if the drm parts are not in the kernel, but in the hardware, TCP / TiVo style..
06:48<Gekkko>but if the kernel you have works, why change
06:48<Zr40>hylje: don't buy it :)
06:48<hylje>for now
06:48<eekee>Zr40: I'm not seeing what difference the first draft has here... I got the impression Torvalds read a draft or more than one before writing, but I'm not certain. His statements were general, he doesn't like limiting users freedom, even their freedom to use DRM-capable apps if desired
06:49<Zr40>eekee: I was referring to the current kernel license, pointing out the reasons for being GPLv2 *only*
06:50<eekee>Zr40: yeah... I think we might have been talking slightly at cross-purposes, I'm sure it's not important
06:50<Gekkko>I like how GPLv2 will stay valid even if GPLv3 comes into force
06:50<eekee>well that's good
06:50<Gekkko>is there a preamble that says that GPLv3 doesnt automatically cover GPLv2?
06:50<Zr40>Gekkko: GPLv2 allows the choice of GPLv2 or any later version
06:50<Biff>Zr40: wrong
06:51<Gekkko>Isnt GPLv2 and v3 counted at seperate entities?
06:51<Gekkko>like BSD vs GPL
06:51<eekee>Oh, my... oh heck, not a worry as such, but a teeny bit of a concern, is that the core GNU tools will disalow GPL2 use
06:51<Zr40>Biff: explain?
06:51<Biff>but some software is licensed under "GPLv2 or later"
06:51<Biff>like some parts of the linux kernel
06:51<Biff>but not all of it
06:51<Gekkko>eekee: I love to abuse my licence rights
06:51<Gekkko>I plan to make GNU BSD
06:51<Biff>which is why it will be very hard to get the linux-kernel to GPLv3
06:52<Gekkko>the transition will take many years
06:52<Gekkko>an audit
06:52<eekee>Biff: the standard GPLv2 explicitly includes a clause that any software licensed under this may also be used under the terms of a later version. That's the part Torvalds didnt' like
06:52<Zr40>eekee: as Biff pointed out, that's not true
06:52<eekee>Gekkko: I do every time I use the nvidia driver, mew
06:52<Gekkko>eekee: I don't like that either
06:52<Gekkko>that's odd.
06:52<Zr40>eekee: the GPLv2 *suggests* the option, but you have to explitly state 'or any later version'
06:52<eekee>gods... *rereads the gplv2
06:52<Zr40>eekee: section 9
06:52<eekee>Oh! hum
06:53<Gekkko>why dont they just cut that option out
06:53<Biff>eekee: Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Program
06:53<Biff>specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any
06:53<Biff>later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions
06:53<Biff>either of that version or of any later version published by the Free
06:53<Gekkko>not GPL=>
06:53<Biff>Software Foundation.
06:53<Chris82>Peter1138 are you here?
06:54<Zr40>Biff: I think the culprit is 'How to Apply These Terms to Your New Programs'
06:54<Biff>i think about 40% of the linux kernel is licensed under GPLv2 or later
06:54<Zr40>Biff: take a look at the fixed-width text, third paragraph
06:54<eekee>Oh great! I'd been under the wrong impression for 10 years, hehe
06:54<Zr40>This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
06:54<Zr40>modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
06:54<Zr40>as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
06:54<Zr40>of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
06:55<Biff>the problem is that alot of people have contributed to the linux kernel, and everyone has to agree to change the license
06:55<Biff>Zr40: yup, thats a suggested text you use in your program
06:55<Biff>but alot of programs doesnt use that
06:55<Zr40>Biff: I guess most just copy/paste that
06:56<Biff>true, but as i said, alot of the kernel is explicit version 2
06:56<Biff>which is a problem
06:56<Zr40>Biff: actually, the whole kernel is v2-only
06:56<Zr40>the LICENSE file states so
06:56<Biff>not true
06:56<Biff>the kernel as a whole is GPLv2
06:56<Biff>but parts of the kernel is GPLv2 or later
06:57<Zr40>then the kernel is in conflict with itself
06:57<Biff>not at all
06:57<Zr40>licensing the whole as GPLv2-only removes the 'or later' option
06:57<Gekkko>they need a Group GPL
06:57<Biff>for instance if i submit a kernel patch and it gets accepted, it is my copyrighted work, which i license under for example GPLv2 or later
06:57<Gekkko>that if you contribute, the leader is in control of what you submit
06:57<Gekkko>control to an extent
06:57<Gekkko>not ownership rights
06:57<Biff>Zr40: you can still extract the parts of the kernel which is GPLv2 or later
06:57|-|Chris82 [] has quit []
06:57<Biff>the original writer still has copyright
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06:58<Gekkko>Intellectual property
06:58<Biff>and only he can accept a change in license
06:58<Biff>this is unlike GNU software, where you give ownership to GNU
06:58<Biff>so GNU software can change license whenever they want
06:58<Zr40>Biff: as I said, the kernel license conflicts with the GPLv2+ parts
06:59<Ailure>ok this amuses me somehow
06:59<Zr40>Ailure: I've had something similar.
06:59<Zr40>Ailure: do you happen to be using Mac OS X?
07:01<Ailure>what make you think I do?
07:01<Zr40>because it happened to me there :)
07:01<Ailure>the bug didn't happen to me
07:01<Zr40>anyway, something went wrong with the standard grfs
07:02<Ailure>I was just copying and pasting teh url from a thread
07:02<Ailure>where that did happen to someone
07:02<Ailure>american slopes :p
07:02<Zr40>deleting and replacing them solved it
07:02<Zr40>they're actually the language icons in the server browser
07:02<Gekkko>oh that looks so cool
07:03<Gekkko>wheres the lines to show the land plots
07:03<Ailure>but most of the time
07:03<Ailure>people just go with the international icon when they create a server
07:04<Ailure>Most of the time, people use the UK flag to signify English
07:04<Ailure>or UK/American flag
07:05<Gekkko>make an Australian flag
07:05<Gekkko>or ill slap you
07:06<Gekkko>try doing that in 12x24 pixels
07:06<Gekkko>it's actually possible :o
07:06<Gekkko>if i made it would it be implemented?
07:06<Gekkko>or would they say "You're a minority!! GO AWAY"
07:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truelight * r10235 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Fix: the 32bpp-anim blitter repainted pixel color 0, which is transparency and therefor should never be repainted (spotted by Rubidium)
07:10<eekee>Hey is there a small-screen branch of openttd? I seem to recall seeing a screenshot of it on a PDA
07:11<Caemyr>ottd on pda/mobile
07:12<Caemyr>this is dangerous
07:12<Rubidium>eekee: there isn't
07:12<eekee>ok fair enough
07:12<eekee>lawl Caemyr :)
07:12<SmatZ>eekee: I saw that at some website, not at official ottd pages
07:12<Caemyr>think about it
07:12<eekee>think? what is this word?
07:13<Gekkko>eekee: PalmTTD
07:13<Caemyr>this may turn into disease
07:13<Gekkko>I have it
07:13<Caemyr>to think
07:13<Gekkko>PPC and Palm
07:13<eekee>cool 'nuff
07:14<Gekkko>0.5.2 for PPC
07:14<Gekkko>0.4.8 for Palm still
07:14<eekee>How did I guess 0.4.8?
07:14<Gekkko>it's a nighly too
07:15<eekee>Anyhow, my Palm's an m515, last of the PalmOS4 ones & a 16MHz Dragon CPU
07:15<Gekkko>doubt it would run
07:16<Gekkko>requires 8mb of heap
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07:16<eekee>and.. my palm currently has 6.6MB of free space, hehe
07:17<eekee>I think my non-essential expenditure this year is going to go on another Z or an iPaq
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07:18<Eddi|zuHause2>omg... what a load of crap in this backlog...
07:18<eekee>yeah lol. sorry
07:19<Gekkko>eekee: Do not buy a PDA
07:19<Gekkko>google UMPC
07:19<Gekkko>and google Folio
07:19[~]eekee sighs, & does so
07:20[~]eekee facepalms "NEW NEW NEW!!!" "COME SEE, BUY NOW! YOU LIKE, VERY MUCH!"
07:21<hylje>umpc :\
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07:21<Gekkko>I have no opinion on UMPC
07:22<Gekkko>I prefer pico-itx
07:22<eekee>dude, I got my Z scratched & stuff, I paid US$150 for it iirc, and that was the going rate for one around it's condition! ;) I'm loon#king at the same price bracket again, or maybe a little higher, and I want something color that can run linux, so I'll be looking on ebay again
07:23<eekee>I mean... I would go for one of those if I had the money, it's fun to get New Stuff, but.... heh
07:24<Gekkko>eekee: I bought a Palm TX
07:24<Gekkko>AU$500 RRP
07:24<Gekkko>$280 from ebay
07:25<Gekkko>why? major indent in the screen.
07:25<Gekkko>not major
07:25<Gekkko>you cantt seei
07:25<Gekkko>but you can feel it
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07:26[~]eekee looks up clamshell Zs on ebay
07:28<eekee> *want* hehe
07:29<Gekkko>I want a laptop
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07:31<eekee>PDA's more my thing. keep it in pocket, not lug around in bag
07:33<eekee>... which is how I lost my last Z :D Keys did a nasty on the screen under slight pressure
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07:41<Gekkko>I hate that
07:41<Gekkko>my gameboy broke like that
07:41<Gekkko>nice black screen
07:41<Gekkko>my farts are lethal tonight
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07:43<Caemyr>code ottd!
07:43<SmatZ>Roger that!
07:43<Caemyr>release new features!
07:44<Caemyr>branch 0.6.0!
07:45<Gekkko>it's ready?
07:45<Caemyr>but almost done:)
07:48<Gekkko>lol yay
07:48<Rubidium>ooh, nice... Caemyr do you know when it's done?
07:48<Gekkko>I don't think I'll want 0.7 with OpenTTD's own gfx
07:48<Gekkko>I <3 TTDX
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07:48<Gekkko>make it an optional patch and I'm sold
07:48<Gekkko>I had an idea how traffic could be implemented
07:49<Rubidium>Gekkko: whole idea about own "gfx" is that OpenTTD come default working out-of-the-box, but that you can just use the old GRFs *if* you've got them
07:49<Gekkko>ah right
07:49<Gekkko>would that work multiplayer too?
07:49<Rubidium>as long as only the graphics change it would work perfectly in MP
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07:50<Gekkko>oh cool
07:50<Gekkko>would the gfx be cheap and nasty?
07:50<Maedhros>why would we want to distribute bad graphics?
07:51<Rubidium>and who ever said that 0.7 will have it's own gfx?
07:51<Caemyr>wiki doesnt lie
07:53<Rubidium>Caemyr: probably meant 0.7, anyway... the person who wrote that was just a random user who wanted that to be in 0.7
07:53<Rubidium>and basically nobody has cared since to "fix" the 0.7 roadmap
07:53<Caemyr>you just shattered all my hopes
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07:54<peter1138>pom te pom
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08:02[~]mikegrb adds control of real trains to the roadmap for 0.7
08:02<mikegrb>and not piddly model trains either
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08:12<Noldo>graphics are useless, let the users steal their own
08:13<Gekkko>go Noldo
08:13[~]Gekkko puts hand up for high fiveness
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08:16<root>i should change my client
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08:17<Eddi|zuHause2>do not chat as root...
08:17<Eddi|zuHause2>well, you do
08:17<SmatZ_>it was some default nickname
08:18|-|SmatZ [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
08:18<Zr40>nicknames default to the username
08:18<SmatZ_>yes :)
08:19<Eddi|zuHause2>as does the ident, which is still "root"
08:19<Gekkko>I'm logged in as root
08:19<SmatZ_>ok I am running at root account, you are right
08:20<Zr40>SmatZ_: please create a user for yourself and log in as that, not as root
08:20<Zr40>running KDE as root (or GNOME or anything) is dangerous
08:20<Eddi|zuHause2>now... where did i put my IRC exploit list
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08:21<Gekkko>Zr40: what bout IceWM
08:21<Zr40>Gekkko: 'or anything' :)
08:21<Gekkko>what about IceWM
08:22<Zr40>...that falls under 'anything'
08:23<Zr40>the only time you should be logged in as root is on the terminal, using su
08:23<Zr40>or even sudo
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08:26<Gekkko>must sleep
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08:32<UnderBuilder>jasper vs sergey... round 1... FIGHT
08:32<UnderBuilder>who wins?
08:33<Zr40>you're teasing about a feature, not graphics, right? :)
08:33<UnderBuilder>I feel like a jasper but addicted to newindustries :(
08:33<peter1138>UnderBuilder: where?
08:33<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... those buildings really do not fit into TTD...
08:34<UnderBuilder>or multiplayer in TTDP
08:34<@Belugas>feature in progress, yes :)
08:34<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2: i bet pikka's do :)
08:34<Zr40>UnderBuilder: bleh, TTDP
08:35<UnderBuilder>the jasper vs sergey fight is my idea :P
08:35<peter1138>hmm. why?
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08:36<UnderBuilder>crazy things of the life...
08:36<@Belugas>Pikka looks great indeed :
08:36<UnderBuilder>also I have a idea for a save game: jasper land
08:36<peter1138>who cares about jasper
08:37<Eddi|zuHause2>who the f... is jasper?
08:37<UnderBuilder>ALL the map filled with highways, traffic lights and vehicles lol
08:37<@Belugas>Pikka has THE style :D
08:37<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2: highway-troll
08:37<peter1138>Belugas: mostly because it's nicked from the original graphics ;)
08:37<@Belugas>yeah, pretty much :)
08:38<UnderBuilder>I love that 4x(2x2) forest
08:38<@Belugas>his quarry is really nice, though
08:39<@Belugas>definitively not the same style ;)
08:40<Eddi|zuHause2>such style-breaks can only be good if the complete graphics are replaced with that style
08:40<UnderBuilder>LOL @ quarry
08:40<peter1138>or just smart palette use?
08:41<UnderBuilder>also my pc has some troubles with sounds
08:41<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't believe that is done with 255 colours
08:41<UnderBuilder>it detects the input dispositive but not the output one
08:41<@Belugas>palette usage indeed
08:42<@Belugas>no 32bpp
08:42<@Belugas>that was the ESCBasic sand quarry
08:42<@Belugas>and that was a mistake :)
08:43<UnderBuilder>(sorry that is funny :P)
08:43|-|Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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08:44<@Belugas>it was intended to be funny, UnderBuilder :) Although it took me two evening to figure out the errors...
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08:46<@Belugas>just two? no...much more...
08:46<Eddi|zuHause2>that sounded awfully schitzophrenic :)
08:46<@Belugas>yeah, i'm a nut :D
08:46<Eddi|zuHause2>one? dozens!
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08:47<peter1138>one, two, many, lots
08:48<hylje>one two three four five lotz
08:48<hylje>orks count surprisingly well
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08:49<Eddi|zuHause2>1394 orcs!
08:50<hylje>oh noes
08:50<Eddi|zuHause2>actually it was 3872 orcs...
08:53<hylje>nuke them from orbit
08:54<eekee>But my pixie spaceship's all broken & stuff!
08:55<hylje>use yer dust
08:57<eekee>what? :D
08:57<Caemyr>the quarry looks great
08:57<eekee>o ^^
08:57<Caemyr>even if it`s not the right style
08:57[~]eekee flies around over the orcs scattering pixie dust
08:57<Caemyr>the photorealistic one
08:57<Caemyr>its so damned good
08:59<eekee>ah, what quarry?
08:59<hylje>the pixie dust quarry
08:59<eekee>*snicker* ^^;
09:00<hylje>heh with newind we could have fantasy ttd
09:00<eekee>yeah hehe
09:00<hylje>dwarven trains \o/
09:01<eekee>dwarven mines are obvious... oh hey, balrog disaster
09:01<hylje>then elves got elegant and fragile trains
09:01<hylje>which carry just pax and stuff
09:01<eekee>yeah ^^'
09:01<hylje>the little peoples make RVs
09:01<hylje>dragons are flyers
09:02<eekee>that's a point, are there any, like, serious disasters in TTD? The worst seem to be the ufos, & they're not much
09:03<hylje>ravaging demons appear rather fine
09:03<eekee>or rather, would they be worth coding
09:03<Eddi|zuHause2>btw: if someone did not get my reference:
09:04<eekee>Oh heh ^^
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09:07<eekee>+1 to run away...
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09:21<skidd13>In the wiki is something written about an opengl blitter... is it in trunk?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it's only in peter1138 secret write only patch repository
09:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm pretty sure peter1138s patches used to be available online
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09:31<Sug>I opened up a save in the scenario editor and whilst there i deleted a road crossing a rail, now the town owns the rail.
09:34<@Belugas>[10:20] <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it's only in peter1138 secret write only patch repository <-- Bermudas Triangle ! Everyting goes in, very few goes out ;)
09:36<Digitalfox>I actually readed Belugas Triangle lol
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09:38<Sug>hmm, and I cant remove it at all
09:38<+glx>scenario editor is not intended to edit savegames
09:38<Sug>well yea, but its possible
09:39<+glx>it 'removes' all player owned stuff
09:39<Sug>no it doesnt
09:39<@Belugas>Digitalfox, not a good example of well written stuff :)
09:40<Digitalfox>Belugas: :)
09:49<dihedral>Sug: magic buldozer :-)
09:49<Sug>doesnt work, like the canals thing
09:49<Sug>just gone back to an older save
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11:05<UnderBuilder>*bump* predict what revision will be implemented newindustries
11:06<UnderBuilder>for me it will be r12345 :D
11:06<Eddi|zuHause2>it gets backdated to r10000 ;p
11:07<UnderBuilder>r32767 will be highways XD
11:07<Eddi|zuHause2>is svn gonna crash afterwards? :p
11:07<skidd13>shht, dont talk about highways, ... jasper could hear it.
11:08<UnderBuilder>he can be one of ours!
11:08[~]UnderBuilder points at Belugas
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11:10<@Belugas>no predictions for newindustries. I can't even guess its completion myself :)
11:14<UnderBuilder>it's only a game, calm down :)
11:14<@Belugas>i'm not upset, believe me :)
11:14<@Belugas>i would like to give a good estimate, but i'm really clueless
11:15<UnderBuilder>I know that a prediction can be very very out of precision
11:15<@Belugas>"<I can't do any > predictions for newindustries."
11:15<@Belugas>there :)
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11:16<@Belugas>it is, UnderBuilder. And i really would not want to give false hope
11:16<@Belugas>gone :(
11:16<Caemyr>we can always bet on it:P
11:18<skidd13>like what is r10000 ;)
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11:31<Wolf01>now MB is spamming like jasperthecat
11:32[~]dihedral is wondering if TrueBrain is around at all
11:34<dihedral>does not look like it! :-(
11:37<peter1138>Wolf01: heh, the 'tunnels' look nice there
11:37<peter1138>the big round station build is way too large though
11:38<skidd13>Hope theres inoculation against jasper-ague. ;)
11:39<Wolf01>i thought about redesign some tunnels and stations for the tube project, to look like subterranean stations (to see under you must enable the transparency)
11:41<Wolf01>but i don't know if i can draw over adjacent tiles, i mean drawing in width, i know is possible in height because there are skyscrapers
11:42<Eddi|zuHause2>why would you need that?
11:43<Wolf01>to link the roof of the station with the roof of the tunnel, over the tile with signals, if there is only one tile
11:45<Wolf01>but i believe more in eyecandy objects and new map array, to be able to put trees along the railways and walls/roofs/fences
11:45<skidd13>Lepkka did something like this with the water.
11:46<Wolf01>yes i know
11:47<Wolf01>but i think my idea was older than it, i started to think about it when the tube project was started, but only now i started to draw something :P
11:47<Eddi|zuHause2>Wolf01: i'd rather approach it like a new "tube" railtype that has something drawn on top of it (similar to how catenary is drawn)
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12:06|-|mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
12:06<@Bjarni>!seen sacro
12:06<_42_>Bjarni, Sacro (Ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM) was last seen quitting #openttd 14 hours 38 minutes ago (20.06. 02:28) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 1 hour 57 minutes there.
12:12<Eddi|zuHause2>you're here for 10 seconds and already miss him :p
12:13<Eddi|zuHause2>(yes, i know you got a message that he searched for you)
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12:13<Eddi|zuHause2>now see what you did :p
12:14<Sacro|Laptop>me? i did nothing
12:14[~]Bjarni slaps Sacro|Laptop
12:14[~]Sacro|Laptop fines Bjarni £100
12:14<@Bjarni>you will do something
12:14<Eddi|zuHause2>no, i meant him, not you :p
12:14<@Bjarni>so I better harass you.... just in case
12:15[~]Bjarni spotted Halle on a map today
12:15<@Bjarni>I knew where it was, but I found an old map
12:15<@Bjarni>a road map that's like 30-40 years old
12:16<Eddi|zuHause2>i have maps of this area that are like 500 years old :)
12:17<@Bjarni>I know what the roadmaps of the Halle area from 5000 BC looks like :p
12:19<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah... like... empty :p
12:20<Smoovious>and no left-turn lanes or signals
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause2> <- this was found not very far away from here... it is supposed to be from around 2000 B.C.
12:22<XeryusTC>lol, the 3rd looks like a smiley :)
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12:32<colle>uhh, a police officer was just killed 400 m from my house :(
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12:33<oxygene_>where are you living, colle?
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12:33<oxygene_>i've expected new jersey or so
12:33<colle>something like that is not supposed to happen here
12:34<colle>one more is badly injured
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12:45<Sacro>svn log $_svntrunk --limit 1 | grep -m 1 -o "r.*" | cut -d \| -f 1 | sed s@r@@g
12:45<Sacro>is that the simpleist way of getting the revision number?
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12:46<Eddi|zuHause2>svn info?
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12:48<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: i dunno, i'm doing an openttd-svn PKGBUILD for ArchLinux
12:48<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: isn't there stuff to get the revision number in the makefile?
12:49<Eddi|zuHause2>why not reuse that?
12:49<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: i don't know
12:49<Sacro>hence why i am asking
12:49<Eddi|zuHause2>that was a rhethorical question :)
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>the makefile gets the revision number and branch name, and puts that into rev.c(pp)
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>i remember something about awk magic
12:51<Sacro>svnversion $(SRC_DIR) | sed -n 's/.*\(M\).*/\1/p'
12:51<Sacro>oh bloody hell
12:51<Eddi|zuHause2>that's the modified flag
12:51<Sacro>svn info $(SRC_DIR) | $(AWK) '/^URL:.*branches/ { split($$2, a, "/"); BRANCH="-"a[5] } /^Last Changed Rev:/ { REV="r"$$4"$(REV_MODIFIED)" } END { print REV BRANCH }'
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12:52<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, that bit looks good
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12:53<Sacro>hmm, that doesn't work
12:54<Sacro>i think i'll stick to the other one
12:57<Eddi|zuHause2>well, it probably requires LC_ALL=C and stuff...
12:58<TrueBrain>Yo Yo Yo!
12:59<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: yes...
12:59<Sacro>my LC_ALL isn't set
12:59<Sacro>now... is there a way to get the latest nightly revision, without downloading svn
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13:00<TrueBrain>what are the odds:
13:00|-|lolman [] has joined #openttd
13:00<TrueBrain>just pated it in an other channel :p
13:00<TrueBrain>(so: wget -q -O /dev/stdout | head -n 1
13:00<Sacro>TrueBrain: thats quite awesome
13:00<Sacro>though... hmmm
13:00<Sacro>i don't know if i can do that in the top of a PKGBUILD
13:00<Sacro>i could backtick it
13:01<TrueBrain>else: svn info svn://
13:01<TrueBrain>oh, without svn
13:01<TrueBrain>nah, forget it :)
13:02<Sacro>well until it hits the makedepends() bit, theres no guarantee that svn is available
13:03<TrueBrain>then this is your only way in I guess :)
13:03<Sacro>i have versionpkg
13:03<Eddi|zuHause2>is there a guarantee that wget is available?
13:03<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: its part of the default base install
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13:05<Sacro>hmm, i guess i can use versionpkg rather than makepkg
13:07<Sacro>i'm sure its svn://
13:08<Sacro>do i need ./
13:08<Sacro>i think not...
13:09<Maedhros>considering there isn't one, no :p
13:09<stillunknown>The "simple" task of splitting train controller into several smaller functions is not so simple ;-(
13:10<dihedral>hello TrueBrain
13:10<Sacro>how do i make it use /usr/share/openttd-svn/* ?
13:11<Maedhros>./configure --prefix-dir=/usr --data-dir=share/openttd-svn etc.
13:12<Sacro>is there a way to quickly rename the binary?
13:13|-|Alanin changed nick to alanin
13:15<Caemyr>click on in, two times
13:15<Caemyr>and type the new name:P
13:16<Maedhros>mv? i don't think you can do it with configure
13:18<stillunknown>Caemyr: You're making assumptions, which you shouldn't.
13:18<Caemyr>at least that`s quick:)
13:18<Caemyr>ok just joking
13:18|-|alanin changed nick to Alanin
13:19<Sacro>stillunknown: yes, gonna have to be mv
13:21<valhallasw>what is squirrel?
13:21<valhallasw>(the repos directory, of course)
13:21<@Belugas>a little mammal linving in the trees :)
13:22<@Belugas>it has to do with NoAI, a script language, IIRC
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13:23<hylje>omg, furries
13:24<Sacro>Unknown option --prefix=/usr
13:24<Sacro>what a silly configure script
13:24<Ailure>reminds me that I saw a discussion about openTTD in a random furry community I happened to stumble upon the other day
13:25<Ailure>made me wonder how popular openttd actually is
13:25<Sacro>so... who deals with the configure script?
13:25<hylje>among furries? nooooo
13:25<Sacro>thats no standard
13:25<Ailure>especially since it wasn't much other talk abotu games
13:26<Sacro>does make install work yet?
13:27<Ailure>Maybe I make some furry newGRF one of thoose days :V
13:27<hylje>oh god
13:28<peter1138>furries :(
13:29<Ailure>We're on the internet, get over it
13:29<hylje>and everyone hates you
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13:29<hylje>there was a graph
13:29<hylje>of internet subcultures' relations
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13:29<hylje>just about everyone thought they were better than furries
13:29<peter1138>because they are
13:29|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:30<hylje>quite probably indeed
13:30<@Belugas>"Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict" (Waters) – 4:59
13:30<Ailure>that graph kinda dind't work to me though
13:30|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
13:30<Ailure>becuse I felt more like a computer geek than a furry on it
13:30<hylje>heh progressive rock
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13:31<Sacro>so... how does the new makefile work?
13:33<Ailure>You put it into the microwave for eight minutes
13:33<hylje>yiff moar
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13:33<@Bjarni><Sacro> so... how does the new makefile work? <-- you get the new makefile and type make
13:33<Ailure>hush before I make yiff.grf
13:33<Sacro>Bjarni: yes, i've got it doing make now
13:33<@Bjarni>you get the makefile by running configure
13:33<Sacro>and it generates it from Makefile.ln
13:34<Sacro>possibly using m4
13:34<peter1138>'yiff' : furries pretending that promiscuous gay underage sex is fluffy love
13:34<Sacro>peter1138: you are most knowledgeable
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13:34<@Belugas>he made that up, i'm sure:D
13:35<Ailure>it was some fox greeting phrase at some MUCK
13:35<Ailure>that some guy made up
13:35<Ailure>then it transformed into the infamous internet phrase as we know today
13:35<peter1138>Sacro: of course, i learnt it all from you
13:35<Sacro>i told you nothing
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13:35<@Bjarni>if peter1138 learned all he knows from Sacro, then peter1138's knowledge is NULL
13:36<Sacro>openttd: /home/ben/Desktop/openttd-svn/src/trunk/src/openttd.cpp:107: void error(const char*, ...): Assertion `0' failed.
13:36<@Bjarni>somehow that's not right
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13:36<@Bjarni>Sacro: that is for assigning NULL to peter1138 :P
13:36<peter1138>Sacro: and the line *above* that?
13:36<Sacro>cannot open ""
13:37<Ailure>Better not ask peter abotu stuff then
13:37<Ailure>or we get ugly bugs
13:37<peter1138>right with -d misc=4
13:37<@Bjarni>you should know how to add
13:37<Sacro>is there a make install now?
13:37<stillunknown>Strange, debug level 3 should display symbols properly in gdb?
13:38<peter1138>stillunknown, yes
13:38<peter1138>TRY IT
13:39<Sacro>yes there is
13:39<stillunknown>peter1138: So a bunch of ???? indicates crashing in an external library?
13:39<Sacro>but no INSTALL_PREFIX
13:39<Sacro>please can i request one
13:39<peter1138>stillunknown: might be something fun like everything overflowing
13:39<Sacro>otherwise i have to do it manually using install -m644
13:40<peter1138>./configure --help
13:40<peter1138> --prefix-dir=dir specifies the prefix for all installed
13:40<peter1138> files [/usr/local]
13:40<peter1138>ETC ETC
13:40<Sacro>prefix-dir doesn't do what i need
13:40<Sacro>hmmm, install-dir might
13:40<TrueBrain>oh joy, he finally found the --help...
13:41<peter1138>what did i have left to do for opengl?
13:41<TrueBrain>peter1138: I was hoping nothing... ;) Yeah, one function: SetPixelIfEmpty ;0
13:42<Sacro>make install actually works
13:43<TrueBrain>oh no, we did something write!
13:43<peter1138>oh yes
13:43<hylje>oh noes
13:44<Sacro>except its using /usr/game rather than /usr/bin
13:44<Sacro>how silly
13:44<TrueBrain>hmm.. write? I should get some sleep...
13:45<peter1138>ln-, mad
13:47<@Bjarni>ln-: wow... who made this?
13:47<Sacro>pretty soon, everyone with ArchLinux can play nightlies without needing to do much!
13:47<ln->Bjarni: no idea
13:48<@Bjarni>however I know some people, who would have done this if they had access to hardware like that
13:49<Sacro>wow, it plays mario
13:49<Sacro>i want one
13:50<Caemyr>ln-: nice:)
13:51<@Bjarni><Sacro> wow, it plays mario <-- also the tetris thingie
13:51<@Bjarni>it's in no way random what it plays
13:51<Sacro>Bjarni: indeed
13:52<Sacro>right... does my package install nciely
13:52<Sacro>yay, i created a working svn PKGBUILD
13:53<Sacro>i am so smart, i am so smart
13:53<Sacro>S M R T
13:53<Sacro>i mean S M A R T
13:54<Ailure>Self-Monitoring, Analysis, and Reporting Technology?
13:54<Ailure>Really fun when it's warns for immiedate HD crash
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13:58<Sacro>grrr :(
13:58<Ailure>ah yeah
13:58<Ailure>it was just compiled
13:58<Sacro>was it?
13:58<Ailure>20:00 every days
13:58<Sacro>is it 19:00 UTC?
13:58<Ailure>the compile farm starts spinning
13:58<Ailure>or 19:00 UTC yeah
13:59<Ailure>r10234 truelight 2007-06-20 12:30:25 +0200 (Wed, 20 Jun 2007) 2 lines
13:59<Ailure>-Fix r10233: make peter1138 happy
13:59<Ailure>This is getting creepy. peter1138 is actually some bot ran in openTTD?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause2>> make peter1138 happy
14:05<Eddi|zuHause2>make: *** [peter1138] Error 1
14:05<Eddi|zuHause2>does not work...
14:07<Sacro>Ailure: don't confuse me with fake commits
14:07<peter1138>@openttd commit 10234
14:07<@DorpsGek>peter1138: Commit by truelight :: r10234 trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp (2007-06-20 10:30:25 UTC)
14:07<@DorpsGek>peter1138: -Fix r10233: make peter1138 happy
14:08<dihedral>lets wais revisions shall we?
14:08<peter1138>antialiased lines don't work too well :-(
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14:12<@Belugas>kinda blurry, isn't it?
14:14<@Bjarni><Sacro> i am so smart, i am so smart <-- smart enough to realise that it should be uppercase I?
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14:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10236 /trunk/ (21 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Introduce a form of timetabling for vehicles.
14:18<hylje>clockwork ottd!
14:18<Maedhros>hmm, i'm going to have to write some documentation now, aren't i? ;)
14:19<Caemyr>please do:)
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14:20[~]Wolf01 download and compiles, now
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14:20<lolman>I was in the middle of compiling when that update went up...damnit >_<
14:21|-|Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
14:21<@Bjarni>I sent " " in PM to Sacro and then he timed out... I guess he didn't like it xD
14:22<Eddi|zuHause2>/home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:17:23: error: timetable.h: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
14:23<Sacro>Bjarni: it's a simpsons quote
14:23<Eddi|zuHause2>(saying "file not found")
14:23<@Bjarni>I have no satelite/cable channels aka I can't watch Simpsons
14:23<Sacro>i think someone broke trunk
14:23<@Bjarni>so I shouldn't be blamed for not knowing everything about Simpsons
14:23<Maedhros>ah, bugger it
14:23<Maedhros>i forgot to svn add them...
14:24<Sacro>Maedhros: i'm sat here debugging an autobuild script
14:24<Sacro>Maedhros: timetable.h :p
14:24<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: you do have internet, and you can buy DVDs :)
14:25<Sacro>HD-PORN :D
14:25<@Bjarni>why should I pay for it?
14:25<stillunknown>Would there be interest in the seperation of the TrainController function, into more manageable blocks?
14:25<dihedral>HD-PORN or Simpsons?
14:25<@Bjarni><Sacro> HD-PORN :D <-- so downloading the Simpsons acts like porn for you??? I don't want to examine your mind >_<
14:26<dihedral>nice one
14:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10237 /trunk/src/ (timetable.h timetable_cmd.cpp timetable_gui.cpp): -Fix (r10236): It helps if you use svn add with new files...
14:26<Eddi|zuHause2>stillunknown: make vehicles into classes and unify the movement
14:27<stillunknown>There has to be a beginning somewhere.
14:27<stillunknown>It's NOT possible to do it all at once.
14:27<stillunknown>Even splitting up the train controller was a non-trivial task.
14:27<Eddi|zuHause2>sure... rm -rf * and start from scratch :)
14:27<dihedral>just dont run that in /
14:28<@Bjarni>nobody claimed it to be trivial
14:28<Wolf01>eh thank you Maedhros :D
14:28<Eddi|zuHause2>compiling takes fooooreeeeeveeeeer...
14:29<Wolf01>i was looking for what i could have break this time :P
14:29<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: nobody told you to compile on a 25 MHz system :P
14:29<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... now i have a new feature that i want to try out, but no useful savegame to start with...
14:30<Wolf01>i have a savegame if you want, but it uses 16MB of grfs
14:32<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a really old savegame, i try to remember what i did back then...
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... resizing the window is totally buggy...
14:34<Maedhros>really? it worked fine a while ago...
14:35<Maedhros>hah, that's a bit special..
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14:36<Eddi|zuHause2>the sticky button stays in place, and it only displays one line after i resized
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14:36<Wolf01>the vehicle is 69 days late :O
14:37<Maedhros>yeah, you need to reset the late counter when the vehicle arrives at its first order
14:39<Wolf01>an automatic clock should be usefull to make an average of the trip time
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14:40<Wolf01>something like, you start it at the first order, when it loops through the schedule and reaches again the first order it stops, so you have an approx time of the trip
14:40<Wolf01>(from A to B, not A <-> B)
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14:41<Maedhros>can do. you can also set the timetable to 1 day, let the vehicle leave and then reset the late counter
14:41<Maedhros>so you can see how late it is (minus 1 day) and that's how long the trip took
14:41<Wolf01>ok, now it looks right: 189 days late
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14:43<Eddi|zuHause2>this *dingding* sound is driving me crazy...
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14:45<@Bjarni>and you are telling me this now because?
14:46<stillunknown>Forget it, i have developed a bad habit.
14:46<stillunknown>One were i assume i already talked to you about it ;-)
14:46<@Bjarni>you lack self confidence to figure out if you are on the right track or not?
14:48<stillunknown>I found in the past that trying to classify too much code, causes a mess, i am looking for opinions, but not necessarily from you.
14:49<stillunknown>I am wondering if this is considered an improvement, in terms of style.
14:50<boekabart>stillunknown: what does this patch do?
14:50<stillunknown>Functionally, nothing.
14:50|-|Sacro_ [~ben@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
14:50<boekabart>i find the wormhole intrigueing
14:50<stillunknown>It just a step in a (hopefully more sane) managing of vehicles.
14:51<stillunknown>That wormhole has always been there.
14:51<stillunknown>wormhole = bridge or tunnel
14:51<boekabart>stillunknown: i figured so much
14:51|-|Peakki [] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä]
14:51<boekabart>after reading better :)
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14:54<Maedhros>right, now to fix the resizing...
14:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10238 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Fix (r10236): Resizing the timetable window caused it to think it could only show one line at a time.
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14:58<Wolf01>Maedhros, the pin button is always in the same position when you resize
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14:59[~]peter1138 experiments with it
14:59<Eddi|zuHause2>i already reported that :)
15:00<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, the timetable window does not close together with the other windows (e.g. orders) when i close the train window
15:01<Eddi|zuHause2>and it might be helpful if the current order is also shown in the timetable
15:01<Maedhros>the timetable window not closing is deliberate
15:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: maedhros * r10239 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Fix (r10236): The pin button didn't move when resizing the timetable gui.
15:02<Eddi|zuHause2>but it's kinda inconsistent
15:04<Maedhros>svn commit stat whoring++
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause2>it might be better to change the behaviour of the old windows, though
15:04<Eddi|zuHause2>i never liked e.g. the orders window closing if i open the details window
15:05<Eddi|zuHause2>are vehicles gonna wait at stations/waypoints if they are early?
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15:06<Maedhros>stations yes, waypoints no
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15:12<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, so i need to set up waiting stations for freight trains, in order to let express trains overtake...
15:13<Maedhros>yes. waiting at waypoints would cause havoc, imho
15:13<Maedhros>and you can use the bare ground tiles from newstations anyway :)
15:13<peter1138>but: to stop it waiting at waypoints, you just don't specify a time, no?
15:13<Maedhros>hmm, true...
15:14<peter1138>i don't know how it interacts with the travel part
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15:19<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... this savegame runs too well without scheduling...
15:19<Eddi|zuHause2>i need to build a new network, probably...
15:19|-|guru3_ [] has joined #openttd
15:19<Eddi|zuHause2>and i'm always going to bitch about lack of PBS if i tried that...
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15:21<Eddi|zuHause2>what's funny is that this savegame actually was loaded with the proper newgrfs, although i thought it was really ancient (pre-newstations even)
15:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i believe i started it with the elrails branch
15:22<ln-_>do you think the vehicles are too unsafe?
15:22<ln-_>in this game?
15:22<ln-_>you = anyone
15:22|-|ln-_ changed nick to ln-
15:22<Eddi|zuHause2>what kind of unsafe?
15:26<ln->if there's a collision, it's a 100% chance you die.
15:26<ln->every time every single passenger + drivers of both vehicles die.
15:27<@Bjarni>sounds like US safety
15:27<@Bjarni>of the 19th century
15:35<Sacro>zomg timetables?
15:37<Phazorx>ln-: these who did not get killed by impact die from shame of being employed by your company
15:39<Sacro>Maedhros: i need some kind of system for telling roughly how long to get from one station to another
15:40<peter1138>i was wondering that too :o
15:40<peter1138>it's a bit... guess work, atm
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15:42<Maedhros>yeah. like i said, one way of doing it is to set the timetable to 1 day (or tick), then reset the late counter after the vehicle has left the station
15:42<Maedhros>how late it is will tell you how long it took to get there
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15:43<Sacro>Maedhros: but that takes a whole cycle of the route to do
15:44<Sacro>can it not calculate the manhatten distance
15:44<Sacro>and then use the speed
15:44<Sacro>to give you a rough estimate
15:44<Maedhros>if your railway is straight and flat, then maybe
15:44<Sacro>but state that
15:44<Sacro>its only an estimate based on a straight flat route
15:45<dihedral>good night ladies
15:45[~]dihedral yawns
15:45<Eddi|zuHause2>you could have the pathfinder return the length
15:46<dihedral>i need the pathfinder to get me to bed
15:46<@Belugas>nini dihedral
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15:49<Sacro>how do you stop it from deleting your grf list?
15:50<Sacro>i add them to ~/.openttd-svn/openttd,cfg
15:50<Sacro>run openttd-svn
15:50<Sacro>and it deletes them all
15:50<peter1138>a "waiting time" indicator would be nice
15:50<Sacro>along with the loading %age
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15:56<Sacro>ls -o standard/*.grf | awk '{print $7}'
15:56<colle>it seems to delete the grf-entries for the files it doesn't find
15:56<Sacro>i'm sure theres a more efficient way
15:57<Sacro>though i figured out awk!
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16:04<@Bjarni>how do I make an ssh connection and tell it to use my current x11 display as display?
16:04<e1ko>ssh -X
16:04<Hendikins>ssh -X to enable X11 forwarding, and it should be smart enough to do the rest.
16:04<@Bjarni>I keep getting "unble to open display", which is kind of uncool
16:05<skidd13>Is the x over ssh serversided enabled?
16:06<colle>check what the $DISPLAY variable is set to
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16:08<@Bjarni>now it works :D
16:08<@Bjarni>but it's kind of slow :s
16:09<@Bjarni>I guess opening an ssh connection though an ssh connection would be kind of slow, but I can't access the server directly (firewall setup)
16:10<@Bjarni>people are so paranoid
16:12<@Bjarni>this isn't usable
16:12<@Bjarni>now I have spent 4 minutes opening a text file and it's still not ready
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16:16<@Bjarni>weird. Now it's much faster
16:16<@Bjarni>even usable
16:16<@Bjarni>it feels almost like working locally
16:17<@Bjarni>ahh the nice randomness of internet lag :p
16:18[~]peter1138 > sleep
16:19<stillunknown>Does anyone know why some changes (when doing svn up) are ignored and simply treated as inverse local copy changes?
16:20<stillunknown>It usually happens in modified files, but does not generate conflicts.
16:21<@Bjarni>control+c isn't undo :p
16:21<Maedhros>good night
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16:22<@Bjarni>stillunknown: when updating, if you have local modifications, it will keep those. If they are like the update, they aren't local modifications anymore (naturally)... id that what you meant or something else?
16:23<stillunknown>If a trunk revision adds: int foo = 1;
16:24<stillunknown>Sometimes it doesn't add that and svn diff shows -int foo = 1;
16:24<@Bjarni>it shouldn't do that
16:24[~]Bjarni think he just found a bug (but not in OTTD)
16:25<@Bjarni>when copy pasting in nedit, it reads it as control+c and it closes the app
16:25<@Bjarni>really annoying
16:28<skidd13>started from an xterm?
16:28<@Bjarni>any known workarounds for this issue?
16:29<skidd13>ctrl+c is AFAIK the term signal for the current running process.
16:29<eekee>funny, nedit should be able to override ctrl-c iirc. I /theenk/ vi does.
16:29<@Bjarni>but it's also copy in nedit >_<
16:30<eekee>yeah that's a bug in nedit, it shuld be blocking it.
16:32<@Bjarni>it doesn't appear to have easy access to hotkey setup
16:34<NukeBuster>try ctrl-insert
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16:35<@Bjarni>didn't work either
16:36<@Bjarni>control-v kills it as well
16:37<skidd13>man xterm -> modifyFunctionKeys
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16:41<@Bjarni>I got voice :D
16:41<@Bjarni>I have no idea what I should do with it though :p
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16:47<stillunknown>Now i know what caused my problem, i probably forgot to reload a file and saved the old one.
16:49<skidd13>you can modify the ressources of the xterm in ~/.Xdefaults eg XTerm*modifyFunctionKeys: -1 and all ctrl, etc signal catching from xterm is gone. As far as I understand then manual right.
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17:02<@Bjarni><stillunknown> Now i know what caused my problem, i probably forgot to reload a file and saved the old one. <-- use a client that can figure out that the file is changed ;)
17:02<@Bjarni>fuck, now I have another problem
17:02<@Bjarni>my | hotkeys are mapped to something else in nedit
17:02<@Bjarni>and since I still can't copy paste....
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17:04<@Bjarni>how to reload .Xdefaults without logging out and in again?
17:05<skidd13>tried to start a new xterm?
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17:06<@Bjarni>looks like it didn't like my modification
17:06<@Bjarni>ohh, it just lagged big time
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17:13<@Bjarni>bahh, I can't get copy pasting to work
17:13<@Bjarni>however I can open pico to add the two || I need... talk about lame workaround
17:13<@Bjarni>on the other hand, pico lacks symtax highlighting and line numbers
17:16[~]Sacro writes a securom patch for openttd
17:20<@Bjarni>YOU will write a patch?
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17:21<skidd13>What about a keyboard GUI for PDA's or NintendoDS?
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17:28<@Bjarni>skidd13: the PSP porter took some PSP thingie to add keys. Basically it's a 3x3 fields where you select one. Each of them then contains 4 (or was it 8) letters. This allows writing with only direction keys if needed
17:29<@Bjarni>naturally we should not make OpenTTD depend on 3rd party PSP libs for all ports, but the idea appeared sane
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17:31<skidd13>Damn it's late here. night
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17:31<Eddi|zuHause2>it's only 0:30... the night barely began
17:31<@Bjarni>I plan on having some more working code when I show up tomorrow
17:32<@Bjarni>and the other guys will gaze at the svn log xD
17:32<@Bjarni>the time stamps and the added functions
17:32<@Bjarni>last time that happened was the 6:15 commit Sunday morning
17:32<Eddi|zuHause2>lmao :p
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>that can't happen today :p
17:33[~]Bjarni wonders if he will be asked "don't you ever sleep" tomorrow
17:33<MarkMc>It's 12:33AM here to :)
17:34<@Bjarni>btw I already coded one functionality we had declared "we can't make it in time" and in time would be before Friday, so I feel pretty good about this
17:35<Smoovious>what' the functionality??
17:35<@Bjarni>that's a long story
17:36<Eddi|zuHause2>but you have to think about the functionality you skipped in the mean time
17:36<@Bjarni>it's some robot driving based on sensor input
17:39<Smoovious>oh, real-world stuff?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>not real world... he was talking about robots and sensors... :p
17:40<Smoovious>the kind of stuff they had those full-scale cross-country autonomous races for?
17:40<@Bjarni>but it's real world stuff to make it avoid driving into walls xD
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17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>Smoovious: this is not america, we have smaller scale presentations here in europe :p
17:41<Smoovious>um... the competitors weren't all americans... .. .
17:41<@Bjarni><Smoovious> the kind of stuff they had those full-scale cross-country autonomous races for? <-- basically yes. We use the same gates and stuff as the annual competition at uni
17:42<Smoovious>that's quite cool, Bjarni...
17:42<@Bjarni>a competition that sometimes include teams from other countries
17:43<Smoovious>watching the extended coverage of the races was one of the most interesting things I've had a chance to check out in the past few years... only wish I was able to be part of one of the teams. :)
17:43<@Bjarni><Smoovious> that's quite cool, Bjarni... <-- I know... and the cool part is that my code (mainly my code) can actually reach finish by now (deadline is Friday). Now I just have to make it not take the easy shortcuts so I can get more points, but it can reach the goal, which is a victory in itself :D
17:44<Eddi|zuHause2>that's probably easy... just study some fancy branch of robotics :p
17:44<Smoovious>easy... right.
17:44<Smoovious>dealing with obstacles efficiently is one of the hardest things...
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17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>"easy" is always from my point of view :)
17:45<@Bjarni>well, actually it didn't actually enter the goal... it reached it and the battery died like 10 cm from it because he had made test runs all day... then it had to recharge all night :(
17:45<Smoovious>uh huh
17:45<@Bjarni>now that looked silly... o_O
17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>pwned! :p
17:45<@Bjarni>it really died... I mean it started rebooting when I plugged in the external power
17:45<Smoovious>what's the vehicle/team's name?
17:46<@Bjarni>should we have a name?
17:46<@Bjarni>it's not some official competition, just some internal stuff
17:46<Smoovious>why not... it is much better than talking about "those guys"
17:46|-|XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish.]
17:46<@Bjarni>we are group no. 3
17:47<@Bjarni>located between group no. 2 and group no. 4
17:47<Smoovious>hmm... a little dry... needs something... .. .
17:47<@Bjarni>it fits the numbers on the tables
17:47<@Bjarni>I like how the tables are numbered with 0 indexes :D
17:47<@Bjarni>usually real life numbering starts with 1, but in this case, it starts with 0
17:48<@Bjarni>there is also a robot numbered 0
17:48<@Bjarni>and stuff
17:48<Smoovious>used to watch those battlebot shows... got dissapointed quick cuz they were basically just doing remote-control... not real 'bots... but kept watching cuz of the carnage... now if they really were 'bots... that would have been excellent
17:48<Eddi|zuHause2>q.e.d. it is not real life
17:49<Smoovious>RC vehicles on steroids
17:50<@Bjarni>I once saw one of those battles... it was funny, but in an unintentional way. Some robot had a circular saw as the only weapon. It was too light to push the other robot, so it really only had the saw. When it hit the other robot, the force of the saw as so little that it just stopped instead of damaging the other one. Then it tried to make a run for it and attack with great speed because that increased saw speed.... then it fell off
17:50<@Bjarni> :D
17:51<@Bjarni>sounds like poor testing to me
17:52<Smoovious>hahaha... I think I know which one you mean
17:52<@Bjarni>however I don't like the whole idea of damaging other robots
17:52<Smoovious>the silliest one I think was this guy that basically made a facetted snake...
17:52<@Bjarni>they spent ages building them
17:55<@Bjarni>I was told about a competition where two robots had to pick up balls (or something), so they were two on the field at once. They headed for each other, so they tried to stop, but one of them got so close to the other one that the distance sensors entered their blind distance, so the other robot was gone in the input, so it speeded up again and they crashed.... one came out of it (the blinded one) and it learned where it was after th
17:55<@Bjarni>e accident so it did ok afterwards... the other one didn't realised that it had a push, so it was turned and acted like it was still heading in the same direction so it didn't do anything sane after that
17:55<@Bjarni>but it really was an accident
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17:56<Smoovious>yeah, I see some of those too...
17:57<@Bjarni>robots are cool
17:57<@Bjarni>but they can be damn tricky to deal with
17:57<Smoovious>actually had a team from my old high school in one... was cool... never had anything like that going on when I was still a student
17:58<@Bjarni>you had a robot in high school???
17:58<@Bjarni>did it do your homework?
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17:59<Smoovious>no, I didn't... tech wasn't where it is now... but I was digging into computers a lot then... ~1980... I would have had a lot to offer to a robotics team... :)
18:00<@Bjarni>I like how the inside of our robot works... it's a micro ATX motherboard with a flash for HD and stuff running linux and the sensors, engine controllers and stuff are connected to the com ports
18:00<@Bjarni>which means that it can do what you expect of linux to do
18:01<Smoovious>back before computers were cool, much less mainstream... as far as I knew, I was the only one in the school who had a modem, much less an internet email
18:01<@Bjarni>reminds me of the C64 days.... I had a computer... they didn't
18:01<Smoovious>have you tried using any basic stamps to control some things and just report states to the motherboard?
18:02<Smoovious>yeah... first one I owned was a CoCo-ii... took it apart, tweaked the circuitry... upgrading the ram needed a soldering iron...
18:02<Smoovious>before then, I was using a dumbterm/teletype with a few timeshare accounts
18:04<Smoovious> <--- basic stamps
18:04<@Bjarni>hehe.. I remember when at school we had to see something really special... it was a computer, that was able to talk to computers in other towns using the phone lines, so we had a bus trip to another town to enter a really special room. It had like 8 computers or so and then we could pass into the nearby room with the really special computer where you put the normal phone on top of some device and then it could transmit text :o
18:05<@Bjarni>just text
18:05<Smoovious>I used a handful of them to automate the layout of a model railroad club I used to be in
18:05<Smoovious>an AsciiScope?
18:06<@Bjarni>so basically the class spent a whole day travelling to another town, seeing a computer with a modem, watching a specially trained person sending an email and then go home again
18:06<Smoovious>acoustic modem? (I started on one of those... only 75bps)
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18:06<@Bjarni>yeah, something like that
18:07<Smoovious>I mostly used a DecWriter-ii... trying to download a program formatted to 132cols when you only have 80col paper sucks. :D
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18:22<Sacro>!seen Bjarni
18:22<_42_>Sacro, Bjarni ( was last seen quitting #openttd.wt2 3 minutes ago (20.06. 23:19) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 6 hours 12 minutes there.
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19:55<Smoovious>on one-way roads... what's the point of being able to set the red dot in between 2 yellow arrows?
20:11<+glx>to totally disallow vehicules to go through this road
20:12<Smoovious>can see that being used in a hostile manner...
20:13<+glx>like simple one way :)
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20:56<Sacro>sorting of industries is broken in the nightlies
20:56<Sacro>well, sorting by production is anyway
21:21<@Belugas>in what way?
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---Logclosed Thu Jun 21 00:00:21 2007