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#openttd IRC Logs for 2007-12-08

---Logopened Sat Dec 08 00:00:45 2007
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04:36<BiA|pavel-css>oh no, porno time outed :)
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04:40<Gonozal_VIII>I HAS A TREES
04:42<Wolf01>thank you for awaken me, but i'm not interested, they aren't lego :P
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04:49<BiA|pavel-css>Gonozal_VIII: i must see it in game, i dont know how they look :) even with sun shining to my eyes :)
04:49<Gonozal_VIII>not coded yet
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04:55<Gonozal_VIII>[10:42:04] Wolf01: thank you for awaken me, but i'm not interested, they aren't lego :P <-- sure about that?
04:57<Wolf01>they aren't conic or oval :P
04:57<Gonozal_VIII>loooook again :P
05:03<Gonozal_VIII>so? legoish enough?^^
05:05<Gonozal_VIII>making tiny pictures is so easy :-) take some random picture(s), scale them down to tiny, remove every pixel that looks bad, add some pixel that look good, change some pixel to look better... ready :D
05:08<Gonozal_VIII>ok... with normal trees i end up changing almost every single pixel in the image one by one which takes looong... but still easy
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06:10<BiA|pavel-css>anyone online? :)
06:12<BiA|pavel-css>i need help with setting up my SDT_CONDVAR as i dont understand variables which ar eshown
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07:25<Gonozal_VIII>"cannot read truecolour pcx files!"
07:25<Gonozal_VIII>so that seems to be the problem... how can i de-truecolorify it?
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07:45<Gonozal_VIII>ha, i found a way :D i'll encode the grf, load it ingame, take a screenshot, look for pink stuff in the screenshot, select the colors that should be the pink stuff in the pcx and replace them with working colours, encode the grf again, no pink stuff anymore... i hope^^
07:52<LeviathNL>can't you convert it to the ttd palette in gimp?
07:52<Rubidium>ofcourse one can do that
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07:53<Gonozal_VIII>erm.. how?
07:53<Rubidium>I've got no idea
07:53<cdyson37>hey chaps, love the beta but (for the first time ever) i have a crash to report...
07:53<Rubidium>but I know somebody who has a TTD palette for GIMP
07:54<LeviathNL>if you already have the palette Image > Mode > Indexed > select palette
07:55<Rubidium>cdyson37: what's up?
07:55<cdyson37>random crash... not sure what i was doing. building some track along coastal tiles / scrolling around. moderately built-up map
07:56<cdyson37>was worried might be a h/ware problem on my pc (i'm paranoid!) but doesn't seem to be
07:56<Rubidium>what OS?
07:56<Gonozal_VIII>i don't have a palette thing...
07:56<Rubidium>then make a bugreport and attach the crash.log and crash.dmp files
07:57<cdyson37>groovy. thanks.
07:57<Gonozal_VIII>and i don't know how to get gimp to use english
07:58<Rubidium>just delete the translations for the other languages ;)
07:59<cdyson37>from flyspray: "you may not attempt to log in". i'm not _that_ incompetent...
07:59<Gonozal_VIII>that worked rubidium, renamed de folder to de_ :-) thanks
07:59<Rubidium>cdyson37: enough people that are :(
08:00<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: hacky, but effective ;)
08:00<Rubidium>breaks on the next update though
08:00<cdyson37>meh. any idea what category i should put this under?
08:01<Rubidium>probably just backend/core
08:03<cdyson37>all done :)
08:04<Gonozal_VIII> <-- should i use that palette and remove the yellow and red lines? not much left then...
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08:09<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm gimp can't open its own palettes to edit... unknown file type
08:09<Rubidium>cdyson37: now wait for the person that can decipher those crash dumps ;)
08:10<cdyson37>i'm a very paranoid person. if somebody doesn't find a bug i'll be running memtest86 all night
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08:10<Rubidium>it isn't necessarily something memtest will show
08:11<cdyson37>true. my system's okay really, nvidia stress test is fine, video stress tests for valve games are fine. i just got a bit paranoid with a bout of pagefaults on bootup (it turns out turning off all non M$ services on boot fixes this)
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08:30<Rubidium>cdyson37: when did it approximately crash (game-date)
08:33<cdyson37>very very shortly after taking that save
08:33<cdyson37>i built a station and was just finishing up laying some track
08:34<cdyson37>so within a minute or two of the save
08:34<Rubidium>did you change anything about the tracks/trains in that time?
08:34<cdyson37>just building i think. *might* have created a new train, don't remember
08:35<Gonozal_VIII>double headed train? :-)
08:36<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: not the problem
08:36<Rubidium>because then he would have known he was chaning a train
08:36<Gonozal_VIII>hmm right..
08:36<Gonozal_VIII>for most people...
08:37<Gonozal_VIII>other people.. like me... forget all kinds of stuff fast
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08:38<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: scrolling through the game when it crashes vs crashes when changing train should be enough difference to notice when the game crashes
08:38<cdyson37>nah was a centennial i think
08:38<cdyson37>in retrospect i should have made an emergency save so i could show exactly what the setup was
08:39<Rubidium>anyhow, the crash is either some very unique situation in the pathfinder, but that should've caused it to 'crash' somewhere else as the assertions are enabled or it is something with the hardware.
08:39<Gonozal_VIII>it crashed but you could have made a save?
08:39<cdyson37>i was given an option to make an "emergency save"
08:40<cdyson37>hmm. windows was having a funny day. could be something with the os
08:40<Gonozal_VIII>nice... never noticed that because i never had a crash...
08:40<cdyson37>lucky you :-P
08:40<cdyson37>this is my first, not bad going
08:40<Gonozal_VIII>good quality game :-)
08:41<cdyson37>classic stuff
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08:42<cdyson37>not convinced it's the hardware unless it's a very recent problem. TF2 and bioshock and things run neatly and probably tax the hardware a little bit more than openttd :)
08:43<Rubidium>it's not about taxing the hardware
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08:43<cdyson37>well you know what i mean
08:43<cdyson37>one other thing: could it have been a failed malloc? was running boinc in the background and loads of other stuff and memory was very low
08:43<Rubidium>I'm fairly certain OpenTTD uses other parts of the CPU than TF2/bioshock do
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08:45<Rubidium>TF2/Bioshock probably drain your GPU and not as much of the CPU
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08:46<cdyson37>they certainly do drain the gpu. but the cpu won't exactly be idle (havoc physics etc) and they use loads of ram. so if there's a h/w problem they will often (not always) find it. my last pc had cooling issues that usually took a high end game to bring out
08:48<Rubidium>looks like the Windows binary had the assertions not enabled
08:48<Rubidium>so yes, it looks like it is a out-of-memory crash
08:48<cdyson37>yaay! an explanation!
08:48<cdyson37>i did get a "low virtual memory" warning soon after so it makes some sense
08:49<cdyson37>thanks very much for your time
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08:53<Gonozal_VIII>gimp just shocked me..
08:54<Rubidium>hmm, force feedback ;)
08:54<Gonozal_VIII>i made a palette, over 400 clicks to do so... saved it and closed gimp... opened the palettes folder, nothing there...
08:54<cdyson37>recent files?
08:55<cdyson37>(sorry disregard that comment i'm being an idiot)
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08:56<Gonozal_VIII>it put it into the documents and settings folder...
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09:00<cdyson37>i would like to thank all of you intensely cool people for your help. i'm off to lunch, toodle pip!
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09:02<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm i didn't help him... *passes thanks on to rubidium*
09:03<@Bjarni>you are welcome :)
09:04<@Bjarni>I say the reward is equal to my help
09:04<@Bjarni>I mean... I didn't get anything
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09:22<Gonozal_VIII>wow, i've got my own openttd palette now
09:23<Gonozal_VIII>i rock :D
09:27<@Bjarni>is it all pink?
09:27<@Bjarni>or rock coloured?
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09:29<BiA|pavel-css>the MS must be kidding me!
09:31<Gonozal_VIII>unrecognized palette, aborting....
09:31<BiA|pavel-css>if($IP == $MY_IP && $Day%2) { IDontSeeIt(); } else { ISeeIt(); }
09:32<+glx>BiA|pavel-css: better format and reinstalll ;)
09:32<BiA|pavel-css>Gonozal_VIII: can you please take a try to connect to my server ? :)
09:32<BiA|pavel-css>glx: i guess, you dont see my server :)
09:32<+glx>didn't try yet
09:33<+glx>offline as always ;)
09:33<BiA|pavel-css>i really wonder, how possibl, every second day MS see me ...
09:33<BiA|pavel-css>how is possible
09:34<Rubidium>and don't blame the MS as that has not been changed for 'decades'
09:34<Rubidium>and about 140 others get shown on the MS, so that isn't an issue either
09:34<Gonozal_VIII>server offline
09:34<BiA|pavel-css>now, only MS see me :)
09:34[~]BiA|pavel-css likes ms TODAY
09:37<Gonozal_VIII>AAAAH it's pink!!!
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09:40<Gonozal_VIII>it only uses the colors that are marked as normal in the windows palette, how can it be pink
09:41<BiA|pavel-css>dos colors? :P
09:41<BiA|pavel-css>at win
09:42<Gonozal_VIII>how can anybody make grfs if it's that complicated?
09:44<Rubidium>it is not complicated
09:44<Gonozal_VIII>so i'm just too stupid?
09:45<Rubidium>I didn't say that
09:45<Gonozal_VIII>but i did
09:45<Rubidium>but where did you get the colors from?
09:47<Gonozal_VIII>i selected al of the normal ones manually and added them to a new palette...
09:47<Gonozal_VIII>converted to that palette... pink
09:47<Rubidium>the palette needs to be in exactly the same order IIRC
09:48<Rubidium>but I'm not sure about that
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09:48<Gonozal_VIII>same order? :O
09:48<+glx>why not just "steal" the palette from ttd grfs?
09:48<Gonozal_VIII>that's possible?
09:49<+glx>decode grf, open pcx, save palette
09:49<Gonozal_VIII>1. done, 2. done, 3. ?
09:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11597 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 4 dirs): -Change: replace all remaining instances of (re|m|c)alloc with (Re|M|C)allocT and add a check for out-of-memory situations to the *allocT functions.
09:51<BiA|pavel-css>now whole my patch pack will be broken ... i know that :)
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09:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11598 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change [FS#1520]: some tooltips of the main toolbar did not 'enumerate' all options in a drop down menu.
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10:07<Gonozal_VIII>wow, now every single pixel is pink
10:08<Gonozal_VIII>ok, i give up
10:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r11599 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (
10:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: [OSX] 10.4 will now use quickdraw for window mode instead of quartz
10:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: The reason is that quickdraw is way faster (try fast forward)
10:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: 10.5 will still use quartz as it can't handle quickdraw.
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10:37<@Bjarni> <-- hehe... finally found a train using the 1337 mm gauge :D
10:38<LittleMikey>Well, I guess its not as bad as being rickrolled
10:39<@Bjarni>I didn't say that the animation is any good but I think my comment is ;)
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10:45<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: ooooooooold
10:45<@Bjarni>so what?
10:46<LittleMikey>Thats what they say about LOLcode ^_^
10:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11600 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: remove extra out-of-memory checks, since it's now done in *allocT functions.
10:54<LittleMikey>In the folders.
10:54<LittleMikey>*whoops wrong channel
10:54<@Bjarni>when you write something in a wrong channel, please make it something a bit more funny
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>like your password :p
10:55<LittleMikey>password O.o
10:55<LittleMikey>people have passwords these days?
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10:57<BiA|pavel-css>lol .)
10:58<LittleMikey>Well, earlier I was thinking of a cool new way to have a password. Instead of a text based password, it be a series of mouse movements. For example, drawing a certian shape on the screen. Would be much harder to crack IMO
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10:58<BiA|pavel-css>lol :D
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10:59<@Bjarni>it would give you a problem in precision
10:59<@Bjarni>either you have to make it correctly with minor margin for error or it will be easy to crack
11:00<@Bjarni>it's kind using your own voice in a mic. That way people can even hear your password and still not log in
11:00<@Bjarni>works until you get a sore throat
11:00<LittleMikey>Or puberty ^_^
11:01<@Bjarni>puberty happened ages ago
11:01<@Bjarni>I don't care
11:01<LittleMikey>I really want one of those fingerprint scanners on my laptop ^_^
11:01<LittleMikey>That is just awesome
11:01<@Bjarni>once our lecture was delayed
11:02<@Bjarni>the professor couldn't log on to his computer using his fingerprint :P
11:02<Smoovious>would also make it harder for drunk people to be online
11:02<@Bjarni>it would also mean that you would have to have clean hands
11:02<Smoovious>maybe he was an imposter
11:03<@Bjarni>I was about to say that it would prevent perverts from the internet but I guess they log on before getting messed up
11:03<+glx>grr can't remember how to switch terminal in screen
11:04<+glx>any screen user here?
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11:04<Eddi|zuHause><LittleMikey> Well, earlier I was thinking of a cool new way to have a password. Instead of a text based password, it be a series of mouse movements. For example, drawing a certian shape on the screen. Would be much harder to crack IMO <- "das ist das haus vom nikolaus"
11:05<@Bjarni>glx: I use a monitor :p
11:05<@Bjarni>though I usually call it the screen
11:07<LittleMikey>I have a laptop... not sure if you'd classify it as a "monitor" as such
11:07<LittleMikey>Eddi|zuHause: I cant speak enough German to understand that :(
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>it's a childen's game, goal is to draw the shape without drawing a line twice, and without releasing the pen
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11:09<Ruud>hi all
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's accompanied by the rhyme, which has exactly the same number of syllables as there are lines in the shape
11:10<@Bjarni>glx: where is your script... I need it right now
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11:10<LittleMikey>hmm I see
11:11<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: those drawings are great fun
11:11<+glx>strange the script is present
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>the point is, in germany it is so well known, that you can be certain that a significant amount of people will use it as "password"
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>glx: you don't have op?
11:11<+glx>I don't need it :)
11:12<LittleMikey>Oh I see :)
11:12<LittleMikey>Well, i'm going to bed, its too late ^_^ goodnight all.
11:13<LittleMikey>Also, anyone who does not know about my Title page competition please check it out, its here: (blatant advertising)
11:14<LittleMikey>bye :)
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11:15<@Bjarni>glx: your script triggers on too little now... yesterday it triggered on too much
11:15<@Bjarni>try to even it out XD
11:15<@Bjarni>! password
11:20<+glx>it is broken :/
11:20<+glx>fixed :)
11:20|-|BiA|pavel-css kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [wrong channel]
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11:20<hylje>lol wut
11:21<BiA|pavel-css>glx: is that really what it have to do?
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>in 10 out of 10 cases, people meant to go to #openttdcoop instead
11:22<+glx>I can modify the reason to state that too :)
11:23<Osai>may I try
11:23<Osai>thats funny :)
11:23|-|Osai kicked [#openttd] DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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11:24<Osai>I'll never do it again, but that's really funny... lol
11:24<+glx>of course it works only when I'm here
11:24<BiA|pavel-css>kick yourself then ;)
11:25<+glx>I'm sure DorpsGek could do it by itself but I don't know how, and it's not my bot
11:26<Osai>DorpsGek is the same bot as _42_ in our chan, maybe DorpsGek could could send a notice to the person and _42_ an invitation
11:26<Osai>that wouldn't be as rude as the current solution, but as you stated, its neither yours nor my bot
11:26<+glx>no there are not the same, DorpsGek is supybot based
11:27<Osai>but they are all TrueBrains
11:28<Osai>btw. we have some problems with new industries
11:28<@Bjarni>glx: you should auto ban people for 15 sec to take care of auto rejoin XD
11:29<Osai>Bjarni: i.e. colloquy for mac supports a 'wait x seconds until rejoin' function :P
11:29<Osai>I'll set it to 16 then ;)
11:29<@DorpsGek>I can talk :)
11:30<Osai>we too
11:30<@Bjarni>!openttd ports
11:30<@Bjarni>!openttd port
11:30<@Bjarni>@openttd port
11:30<@DorpsGek>Bjarni: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
11:30<@Bjarni>I knew you could
11:30<@DorpsGek>Bjarni: Error: That operation cannot be done in a channel.
11:31<BiA|pavel-css>O_o i should forward 3978 too right? :)
11:31<Osai>Bjarni: thx for r11599
11:31<+glx>BiA|pavel-css: no
11:31<Osai>before I was not able to play in window-mode anymore
11:32<@Bjarni>BiA|pavel-css: it's only if you completely block the port
11:32<@Bjarni>you only need it outgoing
11:32<@Bjarni>the master server will never call you
11:32<+glx>it does but on 3979
11:32<@Bjarni>Osai: I hope I did it right. Otherwise you will have to tell me
11:33<@Bjarni>Osai: be aware that 10.5 will use quartz and there is no way around that so upgrading might not be your best choice
11:33<Osai>I'll probably not
11:34<BiA|pavel-css>i am just tring to find ANY solution which cause my problem
11:34<Osai>I still have an old g5ppc
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11:37<kristyburg>hi all
11:37<@Bjarni>hi kristyburg
11:37|-|xerxes [] has joined #openttd
11:37<@Bjarni>I guess I speak for all of us :)
11:37<kristyburg>can i ask of something
11:37<@Bjarni>but you already did so...
11:37<+glx>don't ask to ask, just ask :)
11:38<kristyburg>i just wonder how i make a own server on openttd online?
11:38<@Bjarni>that's easy
11:38<kristyburg>must i register somewhere?
11:38<@Bjarni>the game will do that for you
11:38<@Bjarni>if you do as glx says
11:39<+glx>dedicated or normal?
11:39<kristyburg>normal i think
11:39<+glx>there's a dropdown in "start server" GUI
11:40<@Bjarni>that page is outdated
11:40<@Bjarni>advertise is not mentioned
11:40<kristyburg>i have made a server now but nobody is coming!:(
11:40<@Bjarni>are you firewalled?
11:40<@Bjarni>or behind a router?
11:40<@Bjarni>@openttd port
11:40<@DorpsGek>Bjarni: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
11:40<+glx> <-- better look here :)
11:40<BiA|pavel-css>i hope you have same problem as me :)
11:40[~]glx slaps BiA|pavel-css
11:41<BiA|pavel-css>maybye you will find solution for him and then i will know what to do :)
11:41<@Bjarni>BiA|pavel-css: if it makes you feel better then many people on the internet has issues
11:41<@Bjarni>but we still don't want to hear about them
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11:48<Osai>okay we, have some problems with PBI
11:52<BiA|pavel-css>might be possible that i have only one (tpc/udp) allowed and thats why MS see me, and second one is bloacked, and thats why others dont see em?
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11:57<BiA|pavel-css>glx: can you see now my server?
12:04<Gonozal_VIII>nothing there
12:05<SpComb> mm, is the issue that the server appears on the MS with a different port than it's confugred on?
12:06<SpComb>your NAT may mangle the source port on the packets that you send to the MS
12:07<BiA|pavel-css>oh i closed server :)
12:08<BiA|pavel-css>SpComb: how can i disallow that?
12:09<SpComb>BiA|pavel-css: is that the case, with the server showing up on the MS with a different port?
12:09<BiA|pavel-css>Server address:
12:09<BiA|pavel-css>no :(
12:10<BiA|pavel-css>but i appear on MS, thats all
12:10<Gonozal_VIII>i already have that in my list and it's offline
12:10<BiA|pavel-css>maybye i just setuped something somewhere wrong :/
12:11<SpComb>but it doesn't show up in the in-game server browser?
12:12<SpComb>not even as a "dead" server (i.e. it shows the IP address instead of the sever name)?
12:12<BiA|pavel-css>dont ask me i cant try it
12:13<Gonozal_VIII>hmm i added it manually before clicking find server, i don't know
12:13<BiA|pavel-css>O:-) can you try it please: _
12:13<BiA|pavel-css>*? :)
12:14<Gonozal_VIII>removed it from the cfg...
12:14<Gonozal_VIII>(i.e. it shows the IP address instead of the sever name)? <---
12:21<BiA|pavel-css>SpComb: so yes :) dead server :)
12:24<BiA|pavel-css>SpComb: why?
12:26<BiA|pavel-css>and its communicating with MS ... Start date != Current date
12:26<SpComb>then the clients can't send UDP packets to the port listed on the master server, or they can't get the replies from them
12:27<BiA|pavel-css>so UDP?
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>we tell you it's UDP for several days now...
12:28<BiA|pavel-css>i read it first tiem
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12:28<BiA|pavel-css>i know my english is bad .... :(
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12:54<BiA|pavel-css><- noob omg
12:56<BiA|pavel-css>at kerio a setuped ... "report packets coming to unopened ports" and?
12:57<BiA|pavel-css>i was just browsing setup:
12:57<+glx>you blocked all incomming?
12:58<BiA|pavel-css>thanks god SpComb and Eddi|zuHause told me that i block udp now
12:58<+glx>go in the second tab (sitova...)
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>i have said that at least five times...
12:59<+glx>then click on third button (the one before refresh)
13:00<BiA|pavel-css>Eddi|zuHause: sorry but this is really first time i read that
13:01<Gonozal_VIII> <-- on that page... DON'T click "dance"
13:01<+glx>BiA|pavel-css: are you following what I say?
13:01<BiA|pavel-css>glx: y
13:01<BiA|pavel-css>add now?
13:01<+glx>description: what you want
13:01<+glx>application: openttd.exe (so it works for any openttd)
13:02<+glx>allow both
13:02<+glx>I don't like this tab ;)
13:03<BiA|pavel-css>allow both you mean direction?
13:03<+glx>yes both directions, and allow in the other group
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13:04<BiA|pavel-css>nothink in protocol,local,"far" ??
13:04<+glx>start with a simple config :)
13:05<BiA|pavel-css>its still under .. report ...
13:06<BiA|pavel-css> ... udp .. denided
13:06<+glx>move it above the "block all" rule
13:06<BiA|pavel-css>no block all :)
13:06<BiA|pavel-css>only one rule now
13:08<+glx>check "secured zone"
13:11<BiA|pavel-css>whats should be in secudred zono, or where it is? :)
13:12<+glx>second button on left, 3rd tab
13:12<BiA|pavel-css>safeness of system?
13:14<BiA|pavel-css>none checked
13:14<+glx>your local network should be in secured
13:14<BiA|pavel-css>local network is off ... does router count as local?
13:14<+glx>local IP of router yes
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13:15<+glx>and router filters what enters in local network
13:15<BiA|pavel-css>still denided :X
13:18<+glx>close server and restart it
13:20<BiA|pavel-css>you were wrong
13:20<BiA|pavel-css>i must enter it for each openttd.exe
13:20|-|LeviathNL [] has joined #openttd
13:20<BiA|pavel-css>i entered there 0.5.3 ... now i for test entered beta1 and it work!
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13:21<BiA|pavel-css>or .. kerio say it work :)
13:21<BiA|pavel-css>glx: can you see my server?
13:22<+glx>still offline
13:23<BiA|pavel-css>gonna try restar server .. :/
13:24<BiA|pavel-css>lol ... :/
13:25<+glx> <-- you have an openttd rule in this window ?
13:26<+glx>allowed in and out?
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13:27<BiA|pavel-css>seems like kerio is lost ->
13:28<BiA|pavel-css>aplication n/a
13:28<+glx>you need only one rule for openttd
13:28<BiA|pavel-css>d:\ottd 0.5.3\openttd.exe
13:30<BiA|pavel-css>okay, rules okay, but this:
13:30<BiA|pavel-css>another rule for 3979 port?
13:30<+glx>that looks right
13:30<+glx>1 out to MS, then incomming is not blocked
13:31<BiA|pavel-css>MS saw me all time and comunicated .. :)
13:31<+glx>bny93-... is me
13:31<BiA|pavel-css>you see my server?
13:31<+glx>but stil offline :(
13:32<BiA|pavel-css>reboot? :P
13:32<+glx>not yet :)
13:33[~]glx starts a server so I can see what the window should say :)
13:33<BiA|pavel-css>Q: when i recieve a packet dont i have to send any? :P
13:34<BiA|pavel-css>i am sending only to MS
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13:36<+glx>you see it?
13:36|-|KritiK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:36<+glx> :)
13:36|-|KritiK_ changed nick to KritiK
13:36<+glx>easier ;)
13:37<+glx>else it's
13:37<BiA|pavel-css>i see
13:37<+glx>in logs I see the same as you
13:37<BiA|pavel-css>test MyNick
13:38<BiA|pavel-css>only recieving?
13:39<BiA|pavel-css>so kerio is okay .)
13:39<+glx>looks like it yes :)
13:39|-|Gonozal_VIII [] has joined #openttd
13:41<+glx>and forwarding is ok too, else kerio won't show anything
13:42<+glx>server closed
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13:48<Ruud>u here?
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13:50<SpComb>myottd broken?
13:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11601 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp station_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: more strict break conditions for _userstring, assert when it overflows anyway (eg. code change without proper check change)
13:51|-|glx changed nick to glx|away
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13:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bjarni * r11602 /trunk/config.lib:
13:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: [OSX] changed default PPC SDK to 10.4 (from 10.3) when building universal binaries
13:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: 10.5 support needs this and it will not break 10.3 support
13:55<BiA|pavel-css>hey SpComb: UDP allowed ... still bad :(
13:55<BiA|pavel-css>any idea?
13:56<SpComb>what do the logs show?
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13:58<SpComb>no outgoing responses?
13:58<BiA|pavel-css>no :(
13:59<BiA|pavel-css>but ... glx tested it on his own server and said, it show same as me
13:59<BiA|pavel-css>but i dont know
13:59<BiA|pavel-css>only incoming
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14:01<BiA|pavel-css>gonna try reboot
14:02<SpComb>it shows the outgoing packet to the master server, but it doesn't show the reply to the packet that the MS sends you, but it shows up in the list, so it must just codense repliues into the same line
14:03<BiA|pavel-css>no ... there is only one outgoing ... thats to MS
14:03<BiA|pavel-css>then, MS incoming ...
14:03<BiA|pavel-css>i closed server and ...
14:04<BiA|pavel-css>every incoming was denited .. but ...
14:05<BiA|pavel-css>thats glx|away :D
14:06<BiA|pavel-css>and when i close server ... one outgoing to MS
14:07<BiA|pavel-css>and maanyy denited to 3979 :/
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14:09<Gonozal_VIII>i'm sure that has nothing to do with me
14:13<BiA|pavel-css>reboot .)
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14:19<BiA|pavel-css>why that many ppl try to connect to my 3979port??
14:19<Gonozal_VIII>that was me hitting the refresh server button
14:19<Gonozal_VIII>a lot
14:20<BiA|pavel-css>del me :)
14:20<BiA|pavel-css>you ... haha
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14:24<BiA|pavel-css>reset of pc changd situation :)
14:24<BiA|pavel-css>ms cant see me :)
14:25<BiA|pavel-css>but i am accepting a lot incoming to 3979 udp :)
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14:26<BiA|pavel-css>i know :)
14:26|-|Ammller [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:26<BiA|pavel-css>w8, i will start him for your test :)
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14:26<BiA|pavel-css>server up
14:27<Gonozal_VIII>no :-)
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14:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11603 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix [FS#1481]: make price for railtype conversion more realistic
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15:10<Ruud>was AFK, no BOK
15:12<Ruud>i have a question about OTTD devving
15:12<Ruud>you seem to have achieved something i also need
15:12<Ruud>for ottdcoop
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15:21<Ruud>SpComb, u here?
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15:30<svip>How do I convert old signals to the newer ones?
15:31<Tefad>blow them up.
15:31<svip>Aw man.
15:31<svip>That is going to take forever.
15:31<svip>Can't be bothered then.
15:31<Tefad>or maybe there's some kind of goofy shift+ctrl thing
15:31<svip>That was sort of what I was pointing at.
15:31<Tefad>if you can't find it easily i doubt it exists
15:31<Tefad>however you can probably code a patch and submit it ; )
15:32<Ruud>anyone seen SpComb?
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15:58<oh>anyone know if qu@rks hangs out here ?
15:58<oh>he runs the non-dihedral fair play servers
16:00<Ruud>u seen SpComb?
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16:00<hylje>non-dihedral :-)
16:01<Ruud>what does non-dihedral means?
16:01<hylje>someone who is not dihedral
16:01<hylje>dihedral is a someone
16:02<Osai>hi guys
16:02<Osai>there is a bug
16:02<Osai>when prospecting a raw material industry (and PBI is loaded) all players de-sync in the multiplayer game only the prospecting player stays
16:03<hylje>the server doesn't die either
16:03<Osai>happens with r11601 at the current openttdcoop public server game
16:03<BiA|pavel-css>what pbi?
16:04<Osai>pikkabirds industries
16:04<Osai>a newgrf
16:06<Osai>hmm... who should I highlight :>
16:06<BiA|pavel-css>ops :)
16:06<BiA|pavel-css>but ... just wait
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16:07<BiA|pavel-css>DorpsGek :) he hate it :)
16:07<Osai>next nightly wont be released before tomorrow, there is a lot of time
16:07<BiA|pavel-css>Osai: really?
16:08<BiA|pavel-css>today first revision was
16:08<BiA|pavel-css>and now is? :)
16:08<BiA|pavel-css>11603 :)
16:08<Osai>yep, but latest nightly is 11601
16:08<BiA|pavel-css>11603 is latest
16:08<Osai>well, thats the trunk, not the nightly
16:09<BiA|pavel-css>check svn
16:09<Osai>!openttd commit
16:09<BiA|pavel-css>i am not sure bu ...
16:09<Osai>@openttd commit
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16:09<@DorpsGek>Osai: Commit by smatz :: r11603 /trunk/src (5 files) (2007-12-08 19:53:30 UTC)
16:09<@DorpsGek>Osai: -Fix [FS#1481]: make price for railtype conversion more realistic
16:09<Osai>@openttd compile
16:09<Rubidium>which is after 20:00 CET
16:10<Osai>nightly is just the version compiled a 20:00 CET imho
16:11<Osai>or revision
16:11<BiA|pavel-css>Rubidium: who is right? :)
16:11<Rubidium>echo Current nightly revision is: `curl -q`
16:11<BiA|pavel-css>linux user :/
16:11<Rubidium>uhm s/q/s/
16:12<Rubidium>why do I need to be a linux user for that?
16:12<BiA|pavel-css>i can run taht via command line? :)
16:13<Rubidium>when you have installed the proper tool and are using the proper command line tool, you can in Windows
16:13<Osai>BiA|pavel-css: just click it and the browser will show you the result
16:13<BiA|pavel-css>yeah he will
16:13<BiA|pavel-css>Not Found
16:13<BiA|pavel-css>The requested URL /devs/rev` was not found o
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16:13<Osai>remove the `
16:14<BiA|pavel-css>whats 11602 and 11603 then?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>sure, if you have a sh compatible shell installed
16:14<Osai>just revision
16:14<Osai>Rubidium: is this problem known?
16:14<Osai>the one I posted above
16:14<BiA|pavel-css>it is "just" grf :P
16:15<Rubidium>the client prospecting and the server do not desync, the rest does?
16:15<BiA|pavel-css>This board is currently disabled. :(
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>BiA|pavel-css: the nightly is only compiled once a night
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16:15<BiA|pavel-css>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>02 and 03 will be included in the next nightly
16:15<Osai>Rubidium: yes
16:15<Rubidium>that sounds very odd to me
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16:16<Osai>it is :/
16:16<BiA|pavel-css>sounds almost like bug which was present month ago
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>i suspect a random call in the ~DC_EXEC part
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>both prospector and server execute that part
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>the other clients only execute the DC_EXEC part
16:17<Rubidium>the client 'issueing' does the ~DC_EXEC path twice, the rest all do it once
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>err... yes, but the prospector and the server do it the same number of times
16:19|-|oh [] has quit [Quit: oh]
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>while the other clients do it once less
16:19<Rubidium>that's the whole thing, the server does it also only once (AFAIK)
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16:21<Eddi|zuHause>well, i'm not really sure about this... but what other explanation would there be?
16:21<Rubidium>hmm, two forum upgrades in such a short time period... something must have gone wrong somewhere
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16:23<LordAzamath>the forums are being upgraded?
16:23<Rubidium>looks like it
16:23<@Bjarni>(in case you didn't notice)
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>why would weE?
16:24<ln->Episode VI: Return of the Bjarni
16:24<@Bjarni>it goes without saying that this channel isn't the same without me
16:25<LordAzamath>The Felloship of the Bjarni
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably true, but i think you are kind of overestimating the significance of it ;)
16:25<ln->yes, this channel is a 2-state FSM.
16:25<@Bjarni>I think this channel is a whole lot different when I'm here
16:26<@Bjarni>my experience of this channel certainly is
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>but you have no chance to prove this
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>if a tree falls, and nobody is there to listen... etc.
16:27<Gonozal_VIII>yes... when a tree falls, there are logs
16:27<LordAzamath> can you tell it's different, if you aren't even here?
16:27<@Bjarni>less completely random kicks
16:28|-|Gonozal_VIII kicked [#openttd] Bjarni [wrong channel]
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16:28<LordAzamath>random kick? nope
16:28<@Bjarni>ok.. it wasn't random
16:28<@Bjarni>but it was a kick
16:28<LordAzamath>just to prove us?
16:28<Osai>don't type evil ! password in this channel
16:29<Osai>because you have to type in another channel
16:29|-|Osai kicked [#openttd] Bjarni [!right channel]
16:29<@Bjarni>he said it
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16:29<hylje>that's unnecessarily arbitrary
16:29<LordAzamath>but he had spaces in between...
16:29<@Bjarni>it ignores spaces
16:29<@Bjarni>when it works that is
16:29<LordAzamath>! and the passwor* word
16:30<@Bjarni>!password = ! password
16:30<hylje>nice assignment
16:30<@Bjarni>wake up you damn script
16:30<Ruud>SpComb, back again?
16:30<LordAzamath>how come you didn't get kicked?
16:30<@Bjarni>the script is broken :(
16:30<LordAzamath>when you typed !passwor*
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>1. !password
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>2. ???
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>3. profit
16:31|-|Eddi|zuHause kicked [#openttd] Bjarni [left channel]
16:31|-|Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
16:31<LordAzamath>3. !playercount
16:31<@Bjarni>left = !right
16:31<Osai>he's just kicking :P
16:31<Vikthor>Bjarni: And what about center?
16:31<Osai>the kicking reasons always change
16:31<Osai>can't be a script :D
16:32[~]Bjarni pats DorpsGek
16:32<@Bjarni>WAKE UP!!!
16:32<Osai>@openttd time
16:32<LordAzamath>dropsGek sounds like corpse...I don't think he'll wake up
16:32<BiA|pavel-css>we all will get kicks whn he will awake :)
16:32<Osai>time to sleep :>
16:32<BiA|pavel-css>corpse :D
16:33<@Bjarni> <-- this is how the script worked yesterday
16:33<@Bjarni>@openttd port
16:33<@DorpsGek>Bjarni: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
16:34<@Bjarni>he listens to our commands
16:34<@Bjarni>but the script stopped working
16:34|-|fjb [] has joined #openttd
16:34<@Bjarni>I think the problem is that the script fails to activate the commands
16:34|-|Viktho1 [] has joined #openttd
16:34<@Bjarni>fjb: did you find the electrified lines in the Rockies?
16:34<BiA|pavel-css>who can repair it? :)
16:34<LordAzamath><+glx> can someone type !password? (I want to test a script)-!- Sacro [~Sacro@*.*.*.*] has joined #openttd<@Bjarni> Sacro: type !password-!- Bjarni was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [wrong channel]-!- Bjarni [~Bjarni@*.*.*.*] has joined #openttd......................but glx did say !passwor* himself too :S
16:35<fjb>Bjarni: They were there till 33 years ago. :-(
16:35<LordAzamath>but then..he added ? to end
16:35<@Bjarni>LordAzamath: he wrote the script... for all I know he blacklisted his own nick
16:36<Osai>doesn't it only work when glx is here?
16:36<@Bjarni>he is here
16:36<LordAzamath>let's try again
16:36<@Bjarni>he is just called glx|away
16:36[~]LordAzamath thinks of newGLX's
16:38<@Bjarni> <--- HAHAHA!!!
16:38<LordAzamath>hope I won't get a kick for this :)
16:38<@Bjarni>that is what it takes to get a kick here
16:38<@Bjarni>having the wrong nick
16:39|-|Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:39<LordAzamath>so you shouldn't mention Dexxtro?
16:39<LordAzamath>can't get that one...
16:40<Ruud>SpComb, back?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>that is unfortunate for you
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>it is really funny :p
16:40<LordAzamath>darkwater said something and Dextro got kicked.....hmm..Yeap. Funny :D
16:41<Osai>the rating is -5/15
16:41<Osai>can't be too funny ^^
16:41<@Bjarni>Darkvater claimed to always be right and then he claims to be Dextro
16:41<@Bjarni>the ratings can sometimes be random
16:41<@Bjarni>just like grades at school
16:41<LordAzamath>I just cast a vote :D
16:42|-|LordAzamath kicked [#openttd] Bjarni [Democracy doesn't work in here. Here I rule]
16:43|-|LordAzamath [] has joined #openttd
16:43<LordAzamath>no you don't
16:43<BiA|pavel-css>-6 :)
16:43<Rubidium>Osai: what version of PBI and what climate/industry do I need to be able to make it desync?
16:44<BiA|pavel-css>Rubidium: i can send you grf pack, you will find :)
16:44<Osai>PBI v1.2, ottd r11601, alpine climate
16:45<LordAzamath>The forum is currently being upgraded. This may take a few hours. Apologies for the inconvenience.............................darn
16:45<Osai>it happens with our current configuration, I could give you a savegame as well
16:47<@Bjarni> <-- hehe
16:47<@Bjarni>again using the wrong name can result in a kick
16:47|-|yorick [] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> <- Would you like to know more?]
16:47<LordAzamath>what about a guy named pwner :D
16:48<Osai>okay, that one was funny
16:48<Osai>I like that first reaction :D
16:48<Rubidium>Osai: what industry?
16:48<Osai>raw material
16:49<Osai>if you prospect a new industry
16:49<Rubidium>I did quite a few times and none of the clients desynced
16:49<BiA|pavel-css>thats because no democracy there, clients only listen :))
16:50<Wolf01>The forum is currently being upgraded. This may take a few hours. Apologies for the inconvenience. :|
16:50<@Bjarni> <-- I remember that one. We were supposed to test my end....
16:52<Rubidium>I've now wasted 100 million pounds on funding industries and still no desync...
16:52<LordAzamath> can be no democracy? its location isn't in Russia, is it?
16:52<Gonozal_VIII>in soviet russia, client hosts you!
16:52<@Bjarni>Democracy is an illusion
16:53<@Bjarni>countries ruled by politicians are an illusion
16:53<Rubidium>Osai: url for that savegame?
16:53<LordAzamath>Bjarni is an illusion
16:53<@Bjarni>in reality all countries are ruled by aliens
16:54<@Bjarni>and the aliens are under my command
16:54<LordAzamath>matrix is THE truth....thereisnospoonthereisnospoon
16:54<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause, I rechecked: only the issueing client does the ~DC_EXEC phase twice, the others (including the server) do it only once
16:54<Gonozal_VIII>no, we're all inside an ancester simulation of some advanced civilization
16:54<@Bjarni>BiA|pavel-css: we tried to do the same thing here... but one guy didn't care and spoiled it
16:54<Osai>Rubidium: I tested it locally too, I didn't desync either, but it happend in our current public server game
16:54|-|thgerg1 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:54<LordAzamath>when I wanted to come in? :D
16:55<@Bjarni>it was aimed at _luca_
16:55<@Bjarni>ages ago
16:55<Rubidium>Osai: slap XeryusTC2 or whoever did make the server with the wrong revision *again*
16:55<@Bjarni>he gained time because his wifi router kicked him while he was logging in
16:55<LordAzamath>because now you can just kick the unwelcome ones? :D :D
16:55<@Bjarni>I could do that back then
16:55<@Bjarni>he wasn't unwelcome
16:55<Osai>Rubidium: why, wrong revision?
16:55<Rubidium>Osai: or the binary clients
16:56<@Bjarni>we just wanted to see how he reacted
16:56<Rubidium>Osai: looks like a messup with the revision numbers to me
16:56[~]LordAzamath is afraid to connect the next time...Here can only be some illusions about democracy, government, freedom and Bjarni
16:57<Osai>Rubidium: I compiled with ./configure --revision=r11601
16:57<BiA|pavel-css>hey Bjarni, is LordAzamath real? or still illusion? :)
16:57<@Bjarni>he is real
16:57<LordAzamath>a ghost to be precise
16:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11604 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix: canal tiles were not marked dirty when surrounding tile got flooded, causing glitches
16:57<@Bjarni>but he isn't a real threat
16:58|-|SmatZ_ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:58<LordAzamath>I can't be a threat if even wind can blow me away indeed
16:58[~]Bjarni slaps BiA|pavel-css
16:58<@Bjarni>don't correct smilies
16:58<Wolf01>D: <- seem a space marine face
16:58<@Bjarni>and now I have to ensure that the first one was the correct one
16:59<Osai>Rubidium: this save faild some hours ago:
16:59<Ruud>anyone talked to SpComb lately?
16:59<@Bjarni>I talked to him this year
16:59<@Bjarni>so yes
16:59<Ruud>"lately" in my definition is like today? ;)
16:59<Osai>@seen SpComb
16:59<@DorpsGek>Osai: SpComb was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 57 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <SpComb> it shows the outgoing packet to the master server, but it doesn't show the reply to the packet that the MS sends you, but it shows up in the list, so it must just codense repliues into the same line
17:00<Osai>dont get nervous Ruud
17:00<Ruud>i am not
17:00|-|SmatZ [] has joined #openttd
17:00<Ruud>i am just a bit frustrated over the IRC use
17:00<BiA|pavel-css>why not correst smiles (:
17:00<Ruud>cuz i hate irc
17:00<Osai>IRC is just fine :)
17:00<@Bjarni>it's the people on it that's the problem
17:01<SmatZ>nice Bjarni
17:01<Ruud>u ppl seem to be great
17:01<LordAzamath>or some illusions that other seem to think as people
17:01<Ruud>its the software + protocoll + the decision to use it what sucks
17:01<Rubidium>what would be better than IRC?
17:02<Osai>icq... hahah
17:02<SmatZ>zomg msg
17:02<@Bjarni>Ruud: what would you use instead?
17:02<BiA|pavel-css>contact in real? :)
17:02<Ruud>not IRC
17:02<SmatZ>BiA|pavel-css: true :)
17:02<@Bjarni>how about... SMS?
17:02<Ruud>but teamspeak
17:02<Ruud>of in-game chat
17:02<@Bjarni>I'm sure the phone companies would love that
17:02<BiA|pavel-css>TS? are you kidding, i wont understand you there :)
17:02<Ruud>MSN (also sucks, but less then IRC imo)
17:02<SmatZ>Ruud: you may program an OTTD mod to allow direct IRC connection from game...
17:02<@Bjarni>what's wrong with IRC?
17:03<Osai>SmatZ: autopilot can do that already
17:03<Gonozal_VIII>teamspeak with 81 people in the channel? that's a lot of traffic...
17:03<hylje>reimplement autopilot
17:03<BiA|pavel-css>SMS? :D i am not rich to send ":D" to all users :D
17:03<SmatZ>IRC is great, simple, no bells and whistles, many different custom clients etc
17:03<SmatZ>Osai: true
17:03<Ruud>IRC is old, outdated, public, has tech shortcomings which i don't even want to START list, clients all suck
17:03<BiA|pavel-css>yeah and its confuzing .)
17:04<@Bjarni>BiA|pavel-css: then you have a problem because I charge more for this channel than the phone companies charge for SMSes
17:04<Eddi|zuHause><SmatZ> Ruud: you may program an OTTD mod to allow direct IRC connection from game... <- autopilot can do that
17:04<Ruud>you have to connect manually to a server
17:04<Gonozal_VIII>irc is great
17:04<Rubidium>so you want something that does not allow someone to look back/go away for a few seconds
17:04<SmatZ>yeah, just because it is old, it sucks
17:04<Ruud>no, but the tech is old and not updated, THAT sucks
17:04<BiA|pavel-css>Bjarni: i know :(
17:04<Osai>Rubidium: could it be the combination with another grf as well?
17:04<Ruud>all other IM protocolls are updated at least once a year
17:04<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: [23:03:10] <Osai> SmatZ: autopilot can do that already
17:04<SmatZ>thanks :-D
17:04<BiA|pavel-css>so you will move to SMSs? :D
17:04<Gonozal_VIII>so... let's forget about openttd because ttd is old and therefore sucks
17:05<Ruud>IRC is prob stiil the same RFC proto since designed
17:05<Prof_Frink>Ruud: And how often are other protocols updated?
17:05<Ruud>Hey, I never said that because something is OLD, it sucks
17:05<BiA|pavel-css>maybye it dont need nay update? :)
17:05<Rubidium>lol ;)
17:05<Prof_Frink>Like ftp, http and the like?
17:05<Osai>Ruud: never change a running system
17:05<Rubidium>Ruud: so you do not like HTTP, HTML, XML, SMTP (i.e. email) and such either?
17:06<Ruud>But the problem is that it might be running, the system is highly outdated, and really needs updates
17:06<BiA|pavel-css>i don't like smtp :)
17:06<Osai>BiA|pavel-css: imap user?
17:06<LordAzamath>I like....because of GMail
17:06<Ruud>yes, HTTP, SMTP are surely outdated and need upgrades
17:06<BiA|pavel-css>what's imap? :D
17:06<Osai>dunno ^^
17:06<Ruud>XML HTML are fine though, but also get updates in the coming years
17:07<Osai>its just another protocol
17:07<hylje>internet message access protocol
17:07<Osai>for fetching emails
17:07<Rubidium>I really do not see what is going to change about XML
17:07<Osai>difference it stores the data on the server
17:07<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: you are right, IRC should get an update to disallow here peaple like you :o)
17:07<Ruud>no its just
17:07<LordAzamath>pavel, kicking can do the job
17:08<Ruud>because ppl are using it for years, decades, ppl d not see how it can be if its upgraded
17:08<Ruud>cuz they dont know what to expect
17:08<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: upgrade it via !password :)
17:08<Osai>what should change?
17:08<Gonozal_VIII>what would you change?
17:08<Osai>we chat and talk and have fun
17:08<Rubidium>hmm, and Ruud doesn't like OpenTTD either
17:08<Ruud>What would I change?
17:09<Ruud>I do like openttd, where do you get that wisdom from?
17:09<Rubidium>because it's network protocol has not changed over the last year
17:09<BiA|pavel-css>you said something like that :))
17:09<Rubidium>ergo... it is something you do not like
17:09<Ruud>I would review the protocoll for its purpose. Then I would look to existing tech and see what is usefull to put in
17:09<Wolf01> lolz
17:10<Rubidium>hmm, on the other hand... Ruud doesn't even like TCP/IP
17:10<BiA|pavel-css>wow, i think this is my first time i spelled something right to first tr y:)
17:10<Ruud>First, the clients are confusing. New users need a guide to start IRC-ing! Quite a difference compared to MSN, AOL etc
17:10<LordAzamath>The forum is currently being upgraded. This may take a few hours. Apologies for the long :(
17:10<Ruud>Rubidium: u don't get my point
17:10<BiA|pavel-css>LordAzamath: you will post it here every 10mins? :)
17:10<Rubidium>people also need a guide to shut down Windows
17:10<Ruud>Like for now. I want to contact SpComb
17:11<Rubidium>or even to turn on their computer
17:11<Rubidium>wait till he arrives
17:11<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: and on icq/msn???
17:11<Ruud>I cant send him a personal message
17:11<BiA|pavel-css>you must wait too
17:11<Gonozal_VIII>the clients are confusing? because there are too much of them or why?
17:11<Rubidium>Ruud: you can't
17:11<BiA|pavel-css>hows that? :o
17:11<Rubidium> /msg Ruud <your private message>
17:11<Ruud>I have to wait, be at the K and then hope he reacts
17:11|-|LordAzamath [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:11<Ruud>This is exactly what i mean
17:11<Rubidium>Ruud: and how different is that to MSN or teamspeak?
17:11<Ruud>Sure, there is even a cmd for
17:12|-|LordAzamath [] has joined #openttd
17:12<Ruud>MSN i just send a message
17:12<Ruud>and wait for reply
17:12<BiA|pavel-css>i can send PM via doubleclick :)
17:12<Ruud>I dont have to worry about my IRC client to shut down
17:12<Rubidium>on IRC you do too
17:12<Gonozal_VIII>msn doesn't have offline messages
17:12<LordAzamath> ........./msg Ruud <your private message> that's evil
17:12<Ruud>yes it does.
17:12<LordAzamath>kopete crashed after I tried to pm myself
17:12<Ruud>its not evil, i like cmdline commands
17:12<Gonozal_VIII>does not
17:12[~]BiA|pavel-css is gonna try it too
17:13<Ruud>the problem is just that *I have to know this command in order to execute it*
17:13<Ruud>Why not have a GUI for it? right click user, then "send message"?
17:13<BiA|pavel-css>"-> *BiA|pavel-css* lol" hehe
17:13<Rubidium>or you just install a tool that has a GUI for that
17:13<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: i have :o)
17:13<Ruud>then I hav to install a tool
17:13<Gonozal_VIII>i'm sure there are clients with guis for everything
17:13<LordAzamath>ruud....try hydrairc or chatzilla or kopete
17:13<LordAzamath>there you have nice gui
17:13<Rubidium>Ruud: for you already did
17:13<Ruud>I dont have to install a tool when sending a file to a skype user
17:13<BiA|pavel-css><- using mIRC
17:14<Rubidium>Ruud: you do need a 'tool'
17:14<Prof_Frink>Ruud: How about, I dunno, Skype?
17:14<Rubidium>the tool is the 'skype' application
17:14<Ruud>I just install Skype, it works, with all modern functionality
17:14<BiA|pavel-css>i just install mirc and it works
17:14<Rubidium>Ruud: and that is exactly the tool I am talking about
17:14<Ruud>The fact that *my IRC client* does not support a GUI to send a private message
17:14<LordAzamath>originally developed by estonians
17:14<Gonozal_VIII>so basically you are complaining about lack of monopoly of irc clients?
17:14<BiA|pavel-css>he doesnt know :)
17:14<Prof_Frink>Ruud: But to run Skype, I would need to install X and configure sound.
17:15<Ruud>Concludes me that the IRC protocoll has a shortcoming: a recommendation for GUI design
17:15<Osai>Ruud: I have a gui for that, I just double click a name in the list or in the chat window itself
17:15<Prof_Frink>Which would make the machine I am IRCing from cry.
17:15<Ruud>that is a linux problem. That's what you *want* since u chose linux
17:15<Gonozal_VIII>that's not a shortcoming, gui has nothing to do with the protocol, that's client stuff
17:15<Rubidium>hmm... so my IRC/MSN clients are bad because I can't double click on names to send a PM?
17:15<Ruud>I am not saying that IRC is flawed
17:15<Prof_Frink>Yes, you are.
17:16<BiA|pavel-css>actualy, you are
17:16<Ruud>My whole point is that I dont like it because there is no progress in it
17:16<Ruud>in developing it
17:16<BiA|pavel-css>there is no need to devepop it?
17:16<Prof_Frink>Ruud: What would you like to see in IRC?
17:16<Ruud>No new features added, etc
17:16<Ruud>Thats what i just said
17:16<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: what features are you missiong?
17:17<LordAzamath>simple and small...what would you expect
17:17<Ruud>send private messages, send files, see history, updated UI, etcetc
17:17<Rubidium>Ruud: all supported
17:17<Gonozal_VIII>the features are in the clients, if you want something that no client has, write your own
17:17<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: thats all about client
17:17<Ruud>Features u gonna say thats already in there
17:17<Rubidium>it's just YOUR client that does not support it
17:17<LordAzamath>if you want to video-talk, there are other programs
17:17<LordAzamath>all supported by kopete too
17:18<BiA|pavel-css>kopete? :)
17:18<Ruud>Implementation of these features can be way better, and i mean *WAY* better
17:18|-|SpComb [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:18<Osai>check this Ruud:
17:18<Rubidium>because IF I let you play with the MSN client I am using, you are going to say EXACTLY the same about MSN as you did about IRC.
17:18<Ruud>Take OpenTTD as an example
17:18<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: bitlbee?
17:18<Ruud>Started with TTDLX
17:18<Rubidium>Prof_Frink: yes
17:19<Ruud>then, after ttdpatch, the openttd project started
17:19<LordAzamath>osai what os are you on
17:19<Rubidium>openttd has nothing to do with TTDPatch
17:19<Ruud>A lot of things i was missing where added in the openttd dev
17:19<Osai>your name is underlined, like a hyperlink, because my mouse is over it, one click and we have a personal chat
17:20<Ruud>Yes it has, TTDPatch was not good enough to work further on, so openttd was started (if i am correct)
17:20<Osai>I have everything I need, even a Smart Chatlog which saves all the hyperlinks sent in a channel
17:20<Ruud>but goes outside the point
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>you're not corect
17:20<Osai>irc rocks :p
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>yes it does
17:20<LordAzamath>IRC rocks Osai's socks
17:20<BiA|pavel-css>but TTDPatch developer didnt make a single update for half-year true? :)
17:20<Ruud>Features I missed in TTD where included in ottd
17:21<Osai>Ruud: you should try its maybe more your flavour
17:21<Rubidium>oh, Ruud does your MSN client allow you to ignore messages from other people containing a certain word, or stop showing join/leave/status changes of a select group of people?
17:21<Gonozal_VIII>you keep mixing up irc and your irc client
17:21<Osai>LordAzamath: why are you asking about my os?
17:21<Ruud>There are a lot of features which are implemented, but I think in some years will be implemented differently
17:21<Prof_Frink>Ruud: Can you access MSN as a file system?
17:21<Rubidium>BiA|pavel-css: wrong
17:21<Ruud>Which makes my point: I don't like everything about ottd
17:22<LordAzamath>because you seem to have not win not linux...maybe Mac Os ?
17:22<Ruud>But the main reason i do not not play it, is because of the ongoing devving
17:22<Rubidium>BiA|pavel-css: last change to TTDP was not more than a day ago
17:22<Osai>LordAzamath: yep
17:22<Ruud>Mixing up IRC & IRC client seems to be logical for you, but not for me, the user
17:23<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: include me, the lame :) i understand it too
17:23<LordAzamath>But that's not the mistake of IRC
17:23<Ruud>A client using MSN does not need to know of the MSN protocoll either? I DO however need to know stuff about the IRC prot since i need a server to connect to
17:24<Ruud>Hence: IRC & IRC client are one and the same thing
17:24<LordAzamath>imagine if you wanted to draw something really cool in 3d and started in Paint. Then you say the drawing needs to be done better
17:24<Ruud>Maybe not technically, but from a user standpoint, it sure is!
17:24<LordAzamath>because yu didn't use Blender
17:24<Gonozal_VIII>you can go to and use irc there without installing or knowing anything (just an example)
17:24[~]Rubidium wonders how an OpenTTD channel would look like in MSN
17:24<BiA|pavel-css>omg no :)
17:24<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: Don't
17:24<Ruud>i know, i wrote a JS IRC client once
17:25<Ruud>Also a Java verison (applet)
17:25<BiA|pavel-css>Rubidium: or icq? :)
17:25<Ruud>but u guys see my point?
17:25<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: Flashing images in place of random letter combos
17:25<Ruud>I don't mind digging into IRC mans looking up obscure commands
17:25<Rubidium>reminds me... talking about code is useless in MSN
17:25<BiA|pavel-css>same here
17:25<LordAzamath>@Rubidium....omg wht msn talk her gong on :X :P :E
17:25<Gonozal_VIII>not really, no... even less now that i know that you can change it yourself if you don't like it
17:26<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: i am not using any code...
17:26<BiA|pavel-css>just typing
17:26<Rubidium>because half of the code is going to be crappy smileys
17:26<BiA|pavel-css>and trying to spell it right :)
17:26<Osai>Rubidium: any progress yet? I didn't understand what you meant with the revision
17:26<Ruud>I know, there are some fair IRC clients
17:26<Ruud>with nice functionality
17:26<Rubidium>I need some crappy landscapes GRFs and I haven't bothered starting my webbrowser yet
17:26<Ruud>But the design is in roughly every IRC client the same
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>MSN is for the people who were too stupid to get AOL?
17:27<LordAzamath>Ruud, there are some non-fair...others aru just fine
17:27<Osai>Rubidium: just download the package
17:27<Rubidium>Ruud: is the design in roughly every MSN client the same?
17:27<Ruud>MSN has a market penetration in the Netherlands of over 95%
17:27<LordAzamath>I have the same "design" for IRC as for msn
17:27<Gonozal_VIII>my irc client is the same that i use for msn and icq
17:27<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: well, now you are digging every single thing and trying to compare with irc? i think you will fail
17:28<LordAzamath>me too
17:28<Ruud>I am talking about usability design here, software which implements these rules in freeware/OSS land are countable on one hand
17:28<LordAzamath>you can't do this woth msn
17:28[~]LordAzamath slaps himself
17:28[~]BiA|pavel-css slaps LordAzamath too
17:28[~]LordAzamath gets hurt
17:29<LordAzamath>what have I ever done to you
17:29[~]Ruud is just a bit agitated when it comes to IRC since there is no improvement, and I see a lot of things which can be improved
17:29<Rubidium>Ruud: IMO Windows isn't useable either
17:29<Wezz6400>Ruud than create something better yourself
17:29<Ruud>I probably will
17:29[~]LordAzamath thinks that Ruud forgot to speak in third person
17:29<Gonozal_VIII>you can complain that you couldn't find a client that you like but what has that to do with irc in general?
17:30<Wezz6400>I for one like IRC a lot
17:30<Wezz6400>ease cli structure, I love it
17:30<BiA|pavel-css>i dont miss ANYTHING in irc ...
17:30<Ruud>See above in the discussion, that point i already made
17:30<LordAzamath>maybe..but I for one didn't get anypoint
17:30[~]Rubidium wonders when the MSN client becomes accessible for remote computers on slow internet lines
17:31<Wezz6400>well I think you exegurate (spell?) when you say most OSS software does not comply with usability design
17:31<Rubidium>but still, what makes EVERY MSN client better than ANY IRC client?
17:31[~]LordAzamath wonders are there even any computers left with dial-up
17:31<Ruud>okay, which app does ahve good usability design by you?
17:31<BiA|pavel-css>Rubidium: pop-ups i have it!
17:31<SmatZ>GPRS is slow, too...
17:32<BiA|pavel-css>simple, user-friendly
17:32|-|TinoM [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:32<Gonozal_VIII>notepad rules
17:32<Wezz6400>Ruud Open Office for one
17:32<Rubidium>notepad is totally unuseable for files without \r\n
17:32<Prof_Frink>You have to take your fingers *off the keyboard* to use any advanced features
17:33<LordAzamath>who here uses IExplore and Microsoft Office anyway?
17:33<Prof_Frink>How lame is that?
17:33<BiA|pavel-css>i have MS office :)
17:33|-|G [] has joined #openttd
17:33<LordAzamath>but do you use it
17:33<Ruud>Open office is one of the best examples of how commercial software does a *way* better job of having a better UI for the same functionality
17:33<Gonozal_VIII>only visio
17:33<Gonozal_VIII>for uni...
17:33<BiA|pavel-css>well ... i have it, thats enought :P
17:33[~]LordAzamath slaps Pavel's M$Office
17:33<Wezz6400>LordAzamath I do, cause if you want 100% compatibility with your class mates ms office is the only way to go
17:33<Prof_Frink>LordAzamath: "IExplore". This offends me.
17:33[~]Ruud loves Office 2k7!
17:34[~]BiA|pavel-css slaps LordAzamath
17:34<Ruud>I benchmarked myself, to see if what MS claims about Ofice2k7 is true
17:34<LordAzamath>ruud...again wrong choice
17:34<LordAzamath>use OpenOffice
17:34<Ruud>So used OpenOffice for a wek, week after that just MS Office
17:34<Ruud>I am just *way* more productive using MS Office
17:35<Wezz6400>if you've been working with ms office for years that test is flawed
17:35<Rubidium>oh... now we're starting to talk about MS Office
17:35<BiA|pavel-css>i have IE too, because a lot of people too and i need that my web pages must look decent in IE
17:35<Wezz6400>as you clearly have way more experience with one product than the other
17:35<Ruud>I mean, if u compare OO.o to MSO 97, maybe they are even
17:35<Rubidium>imagine 25 people writing a document of 500 pages
17:35<Rubidium>and not each writing 20 consecutive pages, but interwoven and such
17:35<Ruud>I have been working with Office, StarOffice, WP 5.1, Word 6.0, etc etc
17:35<Rubidium>people editting/fixing spelling/grammar in other people's text
17:36<Ruud>works great in MS Office i can tell u
17:36<Rubidium>now... show me how to do that nicely without too much overhead in MS Word
17:36<Rubidium>with incompetent users that is
17:36<fjb>500 Pages? Use TeX. :-)
17:37|-|G_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:37<LordAzamath>use IRC and then copy-paste everthing :D
17:37<Ruud>I would recommend using MSO 2k7 for imcompetent users, since in MSO everything is easy to understand, functionality is visible
17:37<Gonozal_VIII>copy-paste to where?^^
17:37<BiA|pavel-css>Ruud: good joke
17:37<LordAzamath>openoffice writer
17:37<Rubidium>Ruud: but a 500 page document that needs to have the same style on all pages
17:37<Ruud>I even think one day ottd will have a derived office 2k7 style interface
17:37<Gonozal_VIII>[23:37:17] Ruud: I would recommend using MSO 2k7 for imcompetent users, since in MSO everything is easy to understand, functionality is visible <-- only if you worked with office before
17:37<BiA|pavel-css>i wanted something and it disappeared from office ... in 03 and xp it was
17:38<Ruud>No, even when not working with office before
17:38<Rubidium>yes... they killed clippy!
17:38<Gonozal_VIII>you bastards!
17:38<LordAzamath>my friend clippy :(
17:38<Ruud>I was on a family weekend lately, my dad created (second time O2k7 user)
17:38<BiA|pavel-css>whats clippy,
17:38<Ruud>a very nice complicated doc
17:38<BiA|pavel-css>ahhh .... helper :D
17:39<Ruud>Clippy was indeed one of the worst ideas ever
17:39<Wezz6400>the only reason I use office instead of wordpad is the automatic index generator and spell check
17:39<Ruud>MS even admitted that
17:39<Wezz6400>I don't use anything else
17:39<Ruud>When i write a blogpost
17:39<Ruud>I just click MSO2k7
17:39<Ruud>then write
17:39<Ruud>Then hit "publish" ét voila
17:40<BiA|pavel-css>why i hit and must wait a minute? :P
17:40<LordAzamath> generate a useless htmlxxxxx code?
17:40<Ruud>content is uploaded to blogserver using open standards
17:40<Ruud>works with almost all major blog sites
17:41<Ruud>images are handled perfectly
17:41<BiA|pavel-css>LordAzamath: if you want biggest page office is good choose :)
17:41<Rubidium>Ruud: but back to my question, how useable is Office in the situation of 25 people writing a 500 page document when they are fixing eachothers mistakes
17:41<Ruud>I do not know. I have played with three people a couple of times, which worked great
17:41<Ruud>Off course there are things which other software will do better
17:42<BiA|pavel-css>500? :X 5 is far enought :)
17:42<Ruud>But overall, i am convinced MSO2k7 saves me time
17:42<BiA|pavel-css>ahh :)
17:42<Ruud>Since a usability engineer team worked on it
17:43<BiA|pavel-css>tt-forums back
17:43<LordAzamath>now how many devs develop m$Office and how many OO?
17:43<Ruud>thats not the point
17:44<LordAzamath>you can compare any linux distro and M$ team too
17:44<Ruud>prpbably more on MSO
17:44<LordAzamath>because OO is open source
17:44<LordAzamath>so if you want you can make a bugfix or something very quickly yourself
17:45<LordAzamath>and there are LOTS of people who volunteer
17:45<Rubidium>Osai: still no desync
17:45<LordAzamath>just because they need
17:45<Osai>Rubidium: everybody left our server now
17:45<Osai>could we test it there?
17:45<Ruud>argh, bugfixing --> OSS vs commercial is a delicate topique
17:45<LordAzamath>imagine a serious bug in OO and msoffice
17:46<BiA|pavel-css>i would delete both :)
17:46<Ruud>I know that discussion
17:46<Rubidium>Ruud: exactly, because you do not have enough information
17:46<LordAzamath>what would you think which would get fixed faster
17:46<BiA|pavel-css>LordAzamath: notepad!
17:46<LordAzamath>yup ;D
17:46<BiA|pavel-css>haha, jackpot to me :)
17:46<Rubidium>but with MS you can be assured that it at least takes 3 weeks on average
17:46<BiA|pavel-css>3weeks? :D
17:46<Ruud>i know a very nice MS notepad trick
17:47<BiA|pavel-css>i dont know, but they are skipping bugs :)
17:47<Gonozal_VIII>notepad? naaah last notepad bugfix must be years ago!
17:47<LordAzamath>and with open source you can dload the patch on the same day
17:47<Rubidium>BiA|pavel-css: patch Tuesday, and they will not release a bugfix that is less than a week old
17:48<BiA|pavel-css>it reminds me SOE
17:48<BiA|pavel-css>Sony Online Entertaiment
17:48<Ruud>Ok, here goes the MS notepad trick
17:48<Ruud>create new document, then type "Bush hid the facts"
17:48<Ruud>save it
17:48<Ruud>reopen it
17:48<BiA|pavel-css>i played SWG (Star Wars Galaxies)
17:48<Ruud>now look whats in the document :)
17:48<LordAzamath>type in Linus Torvald's name and save..
17:48<Rubidium>Ruud: could you create a file named 'con' (without quotes) for me?
17:49<LordAzamath>you'll get M$ is better
17:49<Ruud>i COULD
17:49<Rubidium>then do so
17:49<BiA|pavel-css>????????? :D
17:49<Ruud>nah. Dont need a restart
17:49<LordAzamath>I gotta go to sleep now....It's 00:48 in morning
17:50<Ruud>álthough i think that trick only orks with 98/95/ME
17:50<hylje>why is everyone in the same timezone as me
17:50<hylje>ork ork ork
17:50<BiA|pavel-css><- XP :)
17:50<Rubidium>Ruud: what trick?
17:50<Ruud>the con filename
17:50<BiA|pavel-css><- 23:51 here
17:50<Rubidium>BiA|pavel-css: fix you clock
17:50<LordAzamath>pavel, then your clock is 5min wrong
17:50<Ruud>hey you ARE in a diff timezone :P
17:50<Gonozal_VIII>not 5 min
17:50<Rubidium>LordAzamath: your clock is wrong too
17:51<Gonozal_VIII>it is exactly 23:51:00
17:51|-|AntB [] has joined #openttd
17:51|-|Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:51<Rubidium>LordAzamath: so you clock is about 2 minutes off
17:51<LordAzamath>doesn't bither :D
17:52<BiA|pavel-css>con ... it want to replace something :)
17:52<LordAzamath>anyway..good sleep
17:52|-|LordAzamath [] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.5 :]
17:52<BiA|pavel-css>lol whatsup with con? :D
17:52<Gonozal_VIII>yay forum
17:52<SmatZ>BiA|pavel-css: 'con' is a special filename
17:53<SmatZ>I think it is similiar to /dev/tty
17:53<BiA|pavel-css><LordAzamath> type in Linus Torvald's name and save.. - this trick dont work
17:53<Ruud>just like com1
17:53<BiA|pavel-css>oh noes
17:53<BiA|pavel-css>com1 is worse
17:53<Ruud>it is an old DOS naming for devices
17:54<ln->1 episode of TNG still to be watched...
17:54[~]BiA|pavel-css slaps Ruud around a bit with a large trout
17:54<Ruud>which apperently isnt fixed in XP
17:54<Rubidium>reminds me of the reason why Windows uses different path separators that any other OS
17:54<BiA|pavel-css>you almost killed my system :)
17:54<BiA|pavel-css>it's fragile
17:55<Gonozal_VIII>hmm? com1 does the same as con here
17:55|-|ThePizzaKing [] has joined #openttd
17:55<BiA|pavel-css>Rubidium: why?
17:55<Ruud>try to type in con\con in start-> run
17:55<Ruud>in windows 95/98/ME machines
17:55<Ruud>very funny
17:55<BiA|pavel-css>what it do?
17:55<Ruud>instant restart
17:56<BiA|pavel-css>i am glad it doesnt work in xp :)
17:56<Rubidium>because somebody in DOS -every early-, when it did not support directories, thought it would be nice to use '/' for parameters
17:56<Ruud>c:\mkdir \\com6\c:\sk
17:56<Ruud>i dont know. XP is also flawed
17:56<Rubidium>then in the next version they added support for directories but the '/' was already taken so they used '/'
17:56<Rubidium>then in the next version they added support for directories but the '/' was already taken so they used '\'
17:57|-|TinoM [] has joined #openttd
17:57<BiA|pavel-css>Rubidium ? what :)
17:57<BiA|pavel-css>i got lost :)
17:57<@Bjarni>makes sense
17:57<Ruud>If apple hardware was not so expesive & not upgradable i would have a mac :)
17:57<Gonozal_VIII>you can read text in irc multiple times, you know?
17:57<@Bjarni>but now it really sucks with a decision that old
17:57[~]Ruud would install XP and Vista as first
17:57<ln->Ruud: it's not expensive.
17:58<Rubidium>hmm... pay 500 euros more for hardware or 500 euros more for the OS?
17:58<Gonozal_VIII>vista sucks btw
17:58<Ruud>depends on how you look at it
17:58<@Bjarni>but then again it sucks that some railroads are stuck at DC or 16 2/3 Hz and that's a decision from before the electric computer was invented
17:58<Ruud>I have all MS software for free
17:58<fjb>Vista is really expensive. :-(
17:58<BiA|pavel-css>vista sux at first ...
17:58<ln->... and ultimately
17:58<Ruud>so apple hardware is always more expensive, since i pay for the OS too
17:59<Ruud>and i cant put a sec HD in a mac, which sucks big time
17:59<ln->Ruud: you're wrong
17:59<Ruud>yes? enlighten me! :)
17:59<@Bjarni><Ruud> and i cant put a sec HD in a mac, which sucks big time <-- I had 2 HDs in my G4
17:59<@Bjarni>and room for another one
17:59<Ruud>i mean a mac laptop off course
17:59<Rubidium>a MAC has lots of useability features that a Windows PC does not have
18:00<SmatZ>[23:55:23] <Ruud> try to type in con\con in start-> run
18:00<Ruud>true, thats why i want a mAC :)
18:00<SmatZ>^^^ it doesn't restart on my ancient W98 machine
18:00<Gonozal_VIII>macs are for artists
18:00<Ruud>and c:\con\con?
18:00<SmatZ>"File con\con couldn't be found..."
18:00<ln->Ruud: i bet you cannot put a second HD in the majority of PC laptops either.
18:00<SmatZ>Ruud: the same
18:00<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> macs are for artists <-- great... I'm an artist
18:00|-|Digitalfox [] has joined #openttd
18:00<@Bjarni>anybody wants to buy a painting from me?
18:00<@Bjarni>I can make one if you like
18:01<SmatZ>Bjarni: do you have some samples?
18:01<Ruud>probably u installed the fix MS provided
18:01<@Bjarni>not yet
18:01<SmatZ>Ruud: likely...
18:01<@Bjarni>I just discovered that I'm an artist a minute ago
18:01<Osai>Rubidium: I tested the current game again
18:01<Ruud>ln: true. But I do have a choice, one which apple wont give me
18:02[~]fjb is an artist without a Mac. :-)
18:02<Gonozal_VIII>that's the target group imho...
18:02<Osai>it doesn't happen locally here either, even with some more clients, but I tried the server again and there it happens :/
18:02<Ruud>not anymore
18:02<Ruud>Before 10.2 maybe
18:02<BiA|pavel-css>*dont ban me*
18:02<BiA|pavel-css>apple is usefull
18:02<SmatZ>Ruud: this bug is nice to, for NT product line ...
18:02<Rubidium>Osai: that still makes me suspect messed up revisions
18:02<Gonozal_VIII>macs for artists, linux for programmers, windows for gamers and the rest
18:02<Ruud>but nowadays, MAC is for everyone, also look at the ads of apple: regulare guys
18:02<Rubidium>or rather again
18:02<SmatZ>typing "tab, backspace" several times into console causes reboot
18:02<ln->Ruud: who the hell wants two HDs in a laptop anyway? someone who is not going to use it as a laptop?
18:03<@Bjarni><ln-> Ruud: i bet you cannot put a second HD in the majority of PC laptops either. <-- you don't want to know the price for each GB in an extra HD in a notebook. You see adding one is not just adding an additional 2.5" IDE HD. You need to add more hardware than that and usually also remove the optic drive
18:03<Ruud>Since I am not a linux user, would that make me *NOT* a programmer?
18:03<@Bjarni>Ruud: I can recommend a firewire powered external HD. They are rather small and they can run on the battery in the iBook/MacBook
18:03<BiA|pavel-css>Gonozal_VIII: right
18:03<Ruud>Bjarni: I had a secondary HD installed for $70, 100GB, 7200rpm
18:03<@Bjarni>in which computer?
18:04<Ruud>incluing the bay it needs
18:04<Ruud>IBM t40p
18:04<Rubidium>Ruud: and what did you loose?
18:04<Ruud>my optical
18:04<Ruud>useless, since i dont use opticals anymore
18:04<Rubidium>I'd rather replace my optical for a battery than a HD
18:04<Ruud>only very scarce, last year i needed it about 5 times.
18:05<Rubidium>I never ever needed it for my current laptop
18:05<Ruud>I have 5.5 hours batt time
18:05<Rubidium>and that's already 2.5 years old
18:05<Ruud>I decided to put the program files dir on the sec HD
18:06<Ruud>Adobe Premiere, VS2008 ran like purrling little babies since the upgrade :)
18:06<@Bjarni>looks like a 2nd HD actually works in your case but usually they are more expensive than that and most notebooks doesn't even support it
18:06<Ruud>true that
18:06<Ruud>But I do use it, and i do use it very much
18:07<Ruud>next laptop isnt going to be one with less then 2 HDs :)
18:07<Osai>thats strange Rubidium
18:07<Rubidium>ofcourse, for Windows you need 13 GB of free HD space to install Vista SP1 ;)
18:07<Osai>I recompiled the server without --revision=r11601
18:07<Osai>now it doesn't fail anymore
18:07<@Bjarni>rumours has it that the next MacBook will have no HD, but a whole lot of flash instead
18:08<Ruud>yeah but then i want to of these in it :)
18:08<Gonozal_VIII>hmm flash is nice
18:08<@Bjarni>then again the rumours claimed that Apple would make a TV with OSX inside it... they didn't do it at the time the rumour claimed
18:08<Ruud>or a combo, 400GB HD & 32/64GB flash or something
18:09<Ruud>AppleTV is already here
18:09<ln->00:58 < Ruud> so apple hardware is always more expensive, since i pay for the OS too <--- this is yet to be proven
18:09<@Bjarni>Ruud: now what do you need... two drives or just a whole lot of capacity?
18:09<BiA|pavel-css>today is tomorow :) good night
18:09<Ruud>speed & capacity
18:09<Osai>btw. guys, this conversation leads into nothing oO
18:09<BiA|pavel-css>as usual :)
18:10<@Bjarni>Ruud: so if they add a huge flash disk, you can always just format it into two drives
18:10<Ruud>so ill probably go for a dual USB3 2,5" drive with ftwo flash drives
18:10<Osai>that's the worst case, no matter which client or protocol you use :((
18:10|-|BiA|pavel-css [] has quit []
18:10<Ruud>SpComb still didnt show up
18:11<svippy>Argh! It is horrible!
18:11<@Bjarni><ln-> 00:58 < Ruud> so apple hardware is always more expensive, since i pay for the OS too <--- this is yet to be proven <-- actually I saw a test like a year or two ago. It showed that Apple hardware isn't more expensive than other hardware. The difference is that Apple do not make the really low end computers so the cheapest one is more expensive than the cheapest from other companies. If you compare hardware of similar speed th
18:11<@Bjarni>en Apple has some decent prices
18:12<svippy>Bjarni is right.
18:12<svippy>I could not agree with him and myself more.
18:12<Ruud>yes but i thought that in that test, the software was taken into account
18:12<svippy>That would be crazy!
18:12<Ruud>which makes it flawed for my point
18:12<@Bjarni>I don't think so
18:12<Gonozal_VIII>good for you that you agree with yourself
18:12<svippy>I know.
18:13<svippy>You're the greatest, Bender.
18:13<Ruud>i tend to agree with myself quite a lot
18:13<Ruud>anyway, to make this discussion worthy
18:13<Ruud>i have another idea
18:13<Ruud>for ottd
18:13<Rubidium>Ruud: exactly, because a default Windows PC does ship with only the OS and 300 '90-day' versions of all kinds of applications
18:13<@Bjarni>oh uh
18:13<Rubidium>and the OS then being Windows Home
18:13<Ruud>graphics are now prerendered
18:13<svippy>Is Ruud proposing that we start shipping laptops with openttd preinstalled?
18:13<Ruud>i am actually
18:14<Ruud>but Dell wouldnt cooperate
18:14<svippy>Windows Home, Rubidium? Never heard of that.
18:14<@Bjarni>what would that make our non-profit coding strategy?
18:14<Ruud>say you have a plane, you create it in some fancy 3D modelling software tool
18:14<Ruud>(the graphics)
18:14<svippy>We can use the profit for charity, Bjarni.
18:14<@Bjarni>svippy: Windows XP or vista, home edition
18:14<svippy>Give it to the poor.
18:14<Gonozal_VIII>openttd should be preinstalled everywhere no matter if it's a desktop or a laptop or which os it uses :-)
18:15<Ruud>then u probably render one image for each view corner
18:15<svippy>Supercomputers as well.
18:15<svippy>I would love to see "fast speed" on a supercomputer.
18:15<@Bjarni>it runs on the main server at uni
18:15<Ruud>instead, these images should be rendered by ottd
18:15<svippy>Or whatever you call that button that just makes it use all the CPU when you click it.
18:15<Rubidium>svippy: I think you'll be disappointed
18:15<Ruud>Like a semi-3D engine
18:15<svippy>There is a limit now?
18:15|-|SpComb [] has joined #openttd
18:15<@Bjarni>just crappy due to the fact that we only have remote access to it so screen update makes it unplayable
18:15<svippy>SpComb is here, Ruud.
18:15<Rubidium>svippy: yes, the fact that only one thread is used
18:15<@Bjarni>it's made for raw math, not gaming
18:16<svippy>Noooooooooo! Rubidium.
18:16<@Bjarni>but OTTD compiles and executes
18:16<Ruud>I am only talking about the graphics here
18:16<svippy>We know.
18:16<svippy>We are just talking nonsense, because we are bored.
18:16<Gonozal_VIII>supercomputers use lots of cores, openttd only runs on one :-)
18:16<@Bjarni> <svippy> Or whatever you call that button that just makes it use all the CPU when you click it. <-- fast forward?
18:17<svippy>Fast forward is too simple a term.
18:17<svippy>Yes, Gonozal_VIII, but then we shall make openttd-supercomputer-ibm-edition!
18:17<Ruud>the advantage would be that rendering a diferent view would be easy
18:17<Ruud>we should
18:17<svippy>Runs on 1024 cores at once.
18:17<Ruud>with extra usability souce
18:18<@Bjarni>I looked into adding threads to make use of more than one CPU. The result was that the game became more unstable, was 10% faster in ideal situations and 20% slower in worst case. Worst case would be if a game only had trains and road vehicles
18:18<Ruud>SpComb, can I ask you something?
18:18<@Bjarni>so it will not be finished... we are better off with only one CPU
18:18<Rubidium>Ruud: that is the stupidest question you can ever ask
18:18<svippy>Sure, Bjarni, or was that just bad threading?
18:19<svippy>Threading is not easy.
18:19<svippy>I am not saying that.
18:19<Ruud>I would like to see threading implemented in taking screenshots though
18:19<@Bjarni>svippy: no... it was mutex locking in graphical drawing that killed the benefit from doing stuff like vehicle movements in threads
18:19<Ruud>right now, try make a ss of whole map in a multiplayer game
18:19<Ruud>not gonna work
18:19<svippy>I see your point.
18:19|-|Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-39-241.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:20<ln->ladies and gentlemen: Sacro!
18:20<Rubidium>Ruud: problem is that it has to render the WHOLE world and it cannot do that in a separate thread
18:20<Rubidium>primarily because that will crash the drawing code
18:20<svippy>ln-, you need to give him titles.
18:20<Ruud>no but the network sync can be
18:20<svippy>Like "the one and only" or "Jesus thinks he's a jerk", etc.
18:20<Rubidium>you can't do the network syncs while drawing
18:20<Ruud>why not?
18:20<Rubidium>because that causes undrawable states
18:21<Ruud>isnt there some kind of queue which can be put on pause?
18:21<Rubidium>well, the queue is put on hold
18:21<Ruud>but its probably cuz making a ss of the whole map is more some kind of gimmick feature
18:21<Rubidium>it's the network queue
18:21<Rubidium>the one in the OS
18:21<Ruud>which I happend to use quite a lot :)
18:23<Rubidium>and even when you would be drawing the map threaded and did not get crashes in the drawing due to 'impossible' states, you will get an image where different areas are drawn at different times, i.e. the image will contain a lot of artefacts
18:23<Ruud>from a non-knowing developer viewpoint
18:23<@Bjarni>I have been wondering about making a thread to draw on the screen. One thread is the game that makes the thread and once it's done then another thread forwards that thread to the OS while the game thread moves on. The game thread will not start to make the next frame until the video driver thread is done
18:23<@Bjarni>I haven't checked the code yet though and I'm not sure that it will work
18:24<Ruud>i would say that the object that is containing the information is cloned, and then in a different thread serialzed
18:24<Osai>gn8 guys
18:24<Osai>Rubidium: It works now, but somehow its strange
18:24<Rubidium>Osai: it is not
18:24<Ruud>serialized to an image file
18:24<@Bjarni>it depends on how much the game thread can do before it starts to make the next frame
18:24<Ruud>object --> the class instance that holds the graphic information
18:24<Osai>why can't I use --revision=r11601 then?
18:24<Rubidium>Osai: it is just you OpenTTDCoop guys that messed up with the version number again
18:25<Rubidium>Ruud: class?
18:25<Rubidium>and the gathering the graphics information takes about half of the time needed for the drawing
18:26<@Bjarni>Ruud: OpenTTD was coded in C so the structure is without classes. We added C++ later but we didn't change the fundamental structure
18:27<Rubidium>so you need to clone the whole game state, so it's probably easier to make a savegame, launch that in a second OpenTTD and make the screenshot in there
18:27<Rubidium>much higher chance on actually working correctly
18:27<Ruud>havent wrote/looked to a single line of C code, but i know its not an OO language
18:27<Rubidium>while (1) {}
18:27<Ruud>I know its blazingly fast (if proper implemented) and a pain to write
18:28<Rubidium>Java can also be very fast
18:28<Ruud>thats probably the loop in where all the code runs :)
18:28<Ruud>but C is, and will be always faster then Java/C#/Javascript
18:28|-|Osai changed nick to Osai^zZz
18:28<Rubidium>that is where you are wrong
18:29<@Bjarni><Ruud> I know its blazingly fast (if proper implemented) and a pain to write <-- pain to write? At least it's better than Java
18:29<Ruud>the pain to write is a dev pref i guess then
18:29<@Bjarni>I can do stuff in C that I can't do in Java
18:29<Rubidium>Java has something called JIT compiler which can make heavy use of knowledge about the paths taken
18:29<Ruud>but fact is that a 3G language is *by definition* faster to use, but slower to exec
18:29<@Bjarni>or at least I don't know how to do in Java
18:30<Rubidium>so in some cases Java can be faster than plain C
18:30<Ruud>slower exec is inherent to the use of an interpreter, instead of compiling it to machine code
18:31<Rubidium>Ruud: Java's JIT makes machine code
18:31<Ruud>no it doesnt
18:31<@Bjarni>it has to
18:31<Gonozal_VIII>obviously since it has to run on the cpu
18:31<Ruud>JIT converts java to bytecode
18:31<Ruud>nothing more, nothing less
18:31<Ruud>the Java VM then interprets the bytecode
18:32<@Bjarni>you start by compiling to get the bytecode and JIT converts bytecode to machine code
18:32<Ruud>and executes the interpreted bytecode (which then becomes machinecode)
18:32<Ruud>ur right
18:32<Ruud>i messed up
18:33<Ruud>so, to conclude: Java is compiled to bytecode, then bytecode is interpreted by a VM which then executes the resulting machinecode
18:33<@Bjarni>it's faster to convert bytecode to machinecode than it is to compile directly from Java. Bytecode is somewhat like ASM so it's fairly fast to convert
18:34<@Bjarni>but fairly fast is still slower than reading the machine code directly
18:34<Rubidium>it says: The final phase does peephole optimization on the LIR and generates machine code from it
18:35<Rubidium>so the JIT compiler (or HotSpot compiler, whatever is in the name) compiles Java bytecode to machine code
18:35<Ruud>the thing you are aiming on, is pre-executing optimization, which indeed can result in faster code then written by humans in a 2G language
18:35<Rubidium>Ruud: no I am not
18:35<Rubidium>it is optimization that is done during execution
18:35<Ruud>But if the devver in , say, a C language also optimizes it, then it *never* can be faster
18:36<Gonozal_VIII>could you compile the class files to machinecode instead of using them in the virtual machine?
18:36<Rubidium>Ruud: because?
18:36<Ruud>the optimization is always done *before* exec, since otherwise it won't have any effect :)
18:36<@Bjarni>Ruud: a good example of C vs Java. The first midi player for OSX (in OpenTTD) was written as extmidi and it was in java. Then some other guy coded a midi player in C. The one in C is way faster and doesn't have breaks between each track
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18:36<Ruud>becuase of the bytecode which needs to be interpreted
18:36<Rubidium>Ruud: Java's machine code generation does not happen before the first execution
18:36<Ruud>say u have a function
18:37<Ruud>which some cool alg in it
18:37<Rubidium>it happens when it 'sees' that it is executed often, it regenerates it as machine code
18:37<Ruud>compile-> interpret bytecode -> optimize for exec -> exec
18:37<Ruud>C: compile -> machine code
18:37<@Bjarni>the java code just forwarded the midi file to a library while the C code converts the read file to another one in memory and forwards it to the quicktime framework. The C code is way more complex
18:38<Ruud>now say that function is optimized perfectly by the human devver and the JIT
18:38<Ruud>100% optimal
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18:38<Rubidium>Java with Hotspot compiler: compile -> interpret bytecode -> exec -> see it gets run awfully often -> generate optimized machine code -> move execution from byte code to machine code
18:38<Ruud>should result in the same ASM code/machine code
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18:38<@Bjarni>but then again it only depends on the quicktime framework and that's present in any OSX installation so the need for extra libs for this died
18:39<Ruud>which is always faster execed on the C variant, since no (first time) optimization/interpreation occurs
18:40<Ruud>Hotspot compiler is client side or devver side? dev uses it or client?
18:40<Rubidium>client side
18:40<@Bjarni>if you realise that a piece of code is run really often then it's good to look at it for optimisation. Sometimes optimisation can be something you don't normally think about.
18:40<Ruud>so in order to use it, i have to install it somehow in my VM?
18:40<Rubidium>Ruud: it's default
18:40<Ruud>v6 add? v5?
18:41<Rubidium>or maybe even earlier
18:41<Ruud>wonder why i don't know about it then
18:41<Ruud>anway, u agree on my point that C is inherently faster then any 3G language?
18:41<@Bjarni>PPC ASM has conditionally branch (like other ASM) but it has the addon that the guess for the pipeline can be either always true or false so if you know that a check will be wrong 1 out of a million then using the right ASM command will save you from wrong guesses in the pipeline
18:42<@Bjarni>I wish I had a keyword for doing that in C instead of using ASM to do that
18:42<Ruud>which has as effect
18:42<Rubidium>C is not per definition always faster than any 3G language
18:42<Ruud>but then i did not got your point why
18:43<Rubidium>because for example Java can do optimization in the byte code based on the usage, whereas C can't
18:43<@Bjarni>C can be really slow if the coder is stupid. C++ might help coders more if they don't care about speed
18:43<@Bjarni>or even Java
18:43<Ruud>true, but thats the coder
18:43<Gonozal_VIII>if you want it as fast as possible, you need to write machinecode directly :D
18:43<Rubidium>Ruud: really?
18:44<Ruud>yes but that also counts for C#/java
18:44<SmatZ>Rubidium: you can run profiling and then recompile using gathered statistics
18:44<Ruud>that is why i am saying: the same optimized function runs faster in C then any 3G lang
18:44<Rubidium>SmatZ: but that is not adaptive
18:45<Ruud>cuz the interpretation/optimization is not there at runtime
18:47<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> if you want it as fast as possible, you need to write machinecode directly :D <-- a friend of mine told me that their app (or firmware if you like) took 10 (or was it 20) sec to print a page (this was decades ago). The boss said that this was too slow. The code was written in Pascal and they already optimised it as much as they could so they discarded the whole print procedure and started over using as much ASM as pos
18:47<@Bjarni>sible. They ended up with a print that took 2 sec
18:48<@Bjarni>but it was a whole lot of hard work
18:48<@Bjarni>usually coding something in ASM isn't worth it today because the compilers can do a great job today
18:48<@Bjarni>something big, that is
18:49<Gonozal_VIII>we need intelligent compilers :-)
18:49<@Bjarni>don't look at me
18:49<@Bjarni>the one I wrote needed the last line to end with a .
18:50|-|Belugas_Gone [] has quit [Quit: How about sleeping? Yeaaa..]
18:50<@Bjarni>even if . wasn't part of the symtax
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18:50<@Bjarni>and it took a while to figure out why
18:50<@Bjarni>it was a real mystery until we finally figured out why it did that and then it was completely natural that it needed it
18:51<@Bjarni>I wouldn't recommend that compiler though
18:51<@Bjarni>GCC produces better code and it will do that faster
18:52<@Bjarni>also all it could do was function calls, simple math, if, loops and printf
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>could it have something to do that pascal needs a . at the end?
18:52<@Bjarni>oh and it could handle int too
18:53<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: no. We tried to make a C like compiler :)
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>that was not my question ;)
18:53<@Bjarni>it could be
18:53<@Bjarni>it has to do with how the source file is read
18:54<Ruud>i wrote a compiler half year ago
18:55<@Bjarni>then it's newer than mine
18:55<Gonozal_VIII>must be much better then :D
18:55[~]Bjarni slaps Gonozal_VIII
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>i am studying compiler construction
18:55<Rubidium>been there, done that ;)
18:55<@Bjarni>I did that when I made the compiler
18:57<@Bjarni>I remember when I was finishing an assignment when I showed up here to ask a question about bison and said that I had to know before the deadline that was in 30 minutes or so. Then Darkvater kicked me with the reason "get back to work and finish your assignment instead of wasting time on IRC"
18:58<@Bjarni>now that didn't help me
18:58<SmatZ>I wrote a simple C compiler, too... not to be worse than you ;)
18:58<@Bjarni>then I tried the gpmi channel instead and got the answer in like 20 sec
18:58<Ruud>but my compiler lacked so many things i hardly would call it a compiler
18:58<SmatZ>so... who hasn't written a compiler? :-D
18:59[~]Gonozal_VIII hides
18:59<Ruud>lets make a new myspace TheOTTDersWhoAlsoWroteCompilers group.
18:59<Gonozal_VIII>but i will
18:59<SmatZ>Gonozal_VIII: you really should :)
18:59<@Bjarni><SmatZ> so... who hasn't written a compiler? :-D <-- I was about to say "my mom", but then... I better be sure about this so I will say "cousin's one year old son"
18:59<Gonozal_VIII>i'm only 3rd semester :P
19:00<SmatZ>Bjarni: he isn't here :)
19:00<Ruud>Now if SpComb is gonna wake up
19:00<@Bjarni>you didn't say that it should be somebody in here
19:00<Ruud>woudl be great
19:00<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> i'm only 3rd semester :P <-- youngster
19:00<Rubidium>SpComb is probably sleeping already
19:00<Ruud>but what about the idea of generating graphics in game?
19:01<Gonozal_VIII>even more cpu consuming?
19:01<@Bjarni>why would we want to use more CPU power?
19:01<Gonozal_VIII>and ram...
19:01<Ruud>since the images displayed are like 32x32 pixel images, rendering by the GPU wont take long
19:01<Ruud>more GPU power
19:01<@Bjarni>instead of prerendering stuff
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19:01<Ruud>any voodoo1+ graca would be able to render a simple industry
19:02<@Bjarni>Ruud: maybe we should start to use the GPU instead of making the CPU do all the work
19:02[~]Rubidium doesn't think MorphOS's GPUs are capable of that
19:02<@Bjarni>that too
19:02<Ruud>you can also cache the rendered stuf, since u need only one image
19:03<@Bjarni>why would you render stuff and then cache it instead of saving the cached stuff in a grf file and load that one?
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the sense of that...
19:03<Ruud>and if one changes the viewing angle, these images are rerendered once for that viewing angle
19:03<Rubidium>why render them in game when prerendering has exactly the same effect
19:03<Ruud>change colors, apply zooming
19:03<Ruud>apply different viewing angles
19:04<Ruud>apply better lighting
19:04<@Bjarni>you mean that we should cache a vehicle in all the used company colours instead of just once?
19:04<Rubidium>and how do you render animation sprites?
19:04<Rubidium>and how would you have better lighting with 8 bits paletted colours?
19:04<Ruud>dunno, these anim sprites are rendered by some tool? Then it can be done in-game also.
19:04<Gonozal_VIII>there are no different angles... and if there will be then most likely only one for every direction which can be done easily with normal sprites
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19:04<Ruud>since u can change the lighting on the rendering, it would be more dynamic
19:04<Rubidium>animation -> palette animation
19:04<@Bjarni>we shouldn't have different angles
19:05<@Bjarni>the current one works great
19:05<@Bjarni>it would be way too much work to add another one
19:05<Ruud>why not? it would be cool to change the map angly in predefined angles, like 45, 90, 180, 270 etc
19:05<@Bjarni>every single sprite would have to be redrawn
19:05<Ruud>yes, which will be easy since they are generated
19:05<Gonozal_VIII>that doesn't need 3d graphics, only 4 sprites
19:05<Rubidium>and that is a not-going-to-happen
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>unless you do it ;)
19:06<Rubidium>with the 'speed' at which the TTD sprites are 'replaced' by 32bpp sprites
19:06<Ruud>I am just having the idea here, i hope you guys can shoot it off or improve/refine the idea
19:06<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: I disagree with that statement. It's not enough to do it. It also have to be sane when it comes to resource usage
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19:06[~]Bjarni shoots Ruud's idea
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the sprite redrawing
19:07<Rubidium>I don't see the full set of sprites anytime in the century
19:07<Ruud>first: resources are not a point. GPU's we hhave nowadays can render these easily
19:07<@Bjarni>Ruud: we aren't using the GPUs at all
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19:07<@Bjarni>they speak GPU language the game does not
19:07<Ruud>second: it will be easier for graphics designers to add graphics (no precaching)
19:08<Ruud>then we start using them!
19:08<Ruud>again: it is just the idea. oimplementation is second
19:08<@Bjarni>they aren't compatible with our graphics system
19:08<Rubidium>Ruud: better start of a new game (from scratch) if you want to have 3d rendered graphics
19:08<Ruud>My idea is easy to implement
19:08<@Bjarni>then do it
19:08<Rubidium>as it won't be like TTD in a long shot
19:08<Ruud>since instead of getting the image from a file, the image is now gotten from an external libb which generates it
19:09<Rubidium>Ruud: easy account to how many hours?
19:09<Ruud>easy in the sense that it wont be hard to integrate in the current code
19:09<Ruud>i didnt mean easy in: simple and trivial to do
19:09<Rubidium>then you know more about it then I do
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>have you even had a look at the current code?
19:09<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no he has not
19:10<Rubidium>or rather, if he has, he has lied
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>Ruud: wrong answer
19:10<Ruud>corerect me if i am wrong
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>you are wrong
19:10<Ruud>my reasoning is as following:
19:10<@Bjarni>Ruud: the correct answer was "no"
19:10<@Bjarni>this will be good
19:10<Ruud>the game engine gets a GRF file, where a sprite is contained in
19:10<Ruud>same is for the animated stuff
19:11<Rubidium>palette animation!
19:11<Ruud>instead of loading it from a file, it then loads it up from a library
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>and this is supposed to improve what?
19:11<Rubidium>redrawing the whole screen vs. changing a few bits in the palette
19:12<Ruud>how do you mean?
19:12<Ruud>just to get the picture right
19:12<Rubidium>palette animation is easy and 'cheap'
19:12<@Bjarni><Ruud> just to get the picture right <-- no
19:12<Rubidium>when you use those rendered images, you have to redraw the WHOLE screen for every frame
19:12<Ruud>I just proposed a different way to acquire the graphics data, not a different way of showing it
19:12<Rubidium>so it is going to render images in the TTD palette
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>again, what is this supposed to improve?
19:13<Rubidium>I think that is going to cause some trouble with the 'rendering' of the lighting
19:13<Ruud>graphics engine wants to render a tree --> requests tree sprite from 3D lib ->> 3D lib renders it in GPU in-memory as a sprite --> sends back to graphics engine --> renders sprite the same way it did
19:13<Rubidium>Ruud: and now with palette animation
19:14<@Bjarni>GPUs prefer 32 bit graphics. We use 8 bit
19:14<Ruud>better lighting (different lighting positions), possibility to change viewing angle, smooth zooming
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>there is absolutely no sense in what you are suggesting
19:15<Ruud>then onvert the 32bit to 8
19:15<@Bjarni>for every sprite?
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>you still only have the same 8bit colours, there is not much you can do with "lighting"
19:15<Gonozal_VIII>convert hardware?
19:15<Rubidium>Ruud: and that then needs a human 'touch' to generate good looking graphics
19:15<Rubidium>ask Pikkabird about it
19:15<Ruud>sun is coming from N right now
19:16<Ruud>then you would be able to simply have it from south
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19:16<Ruud>lighting is applied right now in the game
19:16<@Bjarni>shadows are sprites
19:16<@Bjarni>not rendered at all
19:16<Ruud>yes it is
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>this is both stupid and not going to work...
19:17<Gonozal_VIII>the sun doesn't come from the south everywhere anyways
19:17<Ruud>cuz if i want to make a new grf for something, i have to incorporate the fact where the sun is coming from in my graphics app
19:17<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: lies!
19:17<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: actually we get it from the south
19:17<Gonozal_VIII>oh i forgot... the world is flat and the sun is static... sorry^^
19:18<@Bjarni>but that's not the issue here
19:18<Ruud>SE actually :)
19:18<Ruud>i looked wrong
19:18<@Bjarni>doesn't matter
19:18<@Bjarni>your idea will never work
19:18<@Bjarni>so stop talking about it
19:18<Ruud>i dont have a clue what pallette animation is
19:18<Gonozal_VIII>on the southern hemisphere, the sun is in the north at noon
19:18<Ruud>why woudlnt it work?
19:19<@Bjarni><Ruud> i dont have a clue what pallette animation is <-- we noticed
19:19<Rubidium>Gonozal_VIII: also wrong
19:19<@Bjarni>Rubidium: then you explain it
19:19<Gonozal_VIII>wrong what why how :S
19:20<@Bjarni>stand on the centre of the South Pole during the summer (local summer). The sun will be in the direction of the North Pole, hence in north
19:20<Rubidium>the sun 'moves' between approximately 23 degrees North and 23 degrees South
19:21<@Bjarni>Rubidium: we are north of that ;)
19:21<Gonozal_VIII>i was only approximating...
19:21<@Bjarni>and if you are outside that then it's always in either north or south
19:21<@Bjarni>depending on your location
19:21<Rubidium>so when the sun is at the 23 degrees South 'position', middle of summer on the southern hemisphere, everywhere north of that 23 degrees south will have the sun in the south
19:21<Rubidium>Bjarni: unless the sun is straight above of you
19:22<Ruud>i cant see how palette animation would be a problem for my idea (read articles about it)
19:22<Gonozal_VIII>impossible rubidium
19:22<SmatZ>Rubidium: you are even worse perfectionist than I am ... :-/
19:22<@Bjarni>if you are way north of 23° then the sun will never be in zenit
19:22<Gonozal_VIII>the sun can't be directly above you when you're above 23° north or south
19:22<Rubidium>how does the renderer know that piece of the model needs to be 'drawn' as palette animatable colour?
19:22<@Bjarni>perfectionism is great if used correctly
19:23<Rubidium>because in that case it must not do the lighting in some cases, but in other cases it should
19:24<Gonozal_VIII>light should just always come from the same direction no matter what angle, much easier
19:24<Ruud>that is for the designer to define. When designing an animation, that animation should be designed in 3D (f curz). Then you convert the 2D images to a 2D pallette animation
19:24<@Bjarni>(f curz)...
19:24<@Bjarni>scared of wearing our your keys?
19:25<Gonozal_VIII>that way you can also reuse sprites for different sides of the same building
19:25<@Bjarni>you must have a really crappy keyboard if that can be an issue
19:25<Gonozal_VIII>and you don't need to redraw every vehicle set...
19:25<Ruud>look, if i am wrong please correct me.
19:25[~]Bjarni corrects Ruud
19:26<Rubidium>Ruud: please explain what YOU think palette animation is
19:26<Ruud>yes. but since the graphics designers proably have already a 3D model, this wont be a big problem
19:26<Gonozal_VIII>not necessarily
19:26<Ruud>simply by changing the palette u animate a static image
19:26<Gonozal_VIII>you don't need 3d models to draw sprites
19:27<@Bjarni>all my attempts to draw sprites was in 2D
19:27<Gonozal_VIII>also different artists use different model formats
19:27<Ruud>i know
19:27<Rubidium>now HOW do you define whether a part of a model needs to use those animation colours?
19:28<Rubidium>and how do you prevent the GPU from applying the lighting stuff on those parts of the model, because if they get slightly changed due to for example a shadow, the color won't be matchable when converting to 8 bits colours
19:29<Ruud> now HOW do you define whether a part of a model needs to use those animation colours? --> i don't understand this, probably cuz of my limited palette anim knowledge
19:30<Rubidium>somehow the 'designer' needs to tell what part of the model needs to use the palette animation colours, i.e. the colours that are actually animated
19:30<Ruud>you dont want to prevent the gpu from doing that
19:30<Rubidium>but then the palette animation will not work anymore in *any* shadow situation
19:30<Ruud>and i dont know specifics about converting 32->8 bit
19:31<Rubidium>so you claim something is easy when you don't even know how something needs to be implemented
19:31<@Bjarni>32->8 is tricky as it converts RGB colours to palette. It's way easier (and faster) to convert 8 to 32 bit
19:31<Ruud>how would we solve these problems?
19:32<@Bjarni>we don't
19:32<Ruud>off course we do
19:32<Ruud>i dont know yet, but i do know there is a solution
19:32<Ruud>as there is always a solution for every tech problem
19:32<Ruud>in software de land
19:32<@Bjarni>but is it fast enough for real time?
19:32<Ruud>i think so
19:33<@Bjarni>I don't
19:33[~]Sacro sighs
19:33<Ruud>since these images only have to be rendered once
19:33<Sacro>and cached?~
19:33<Ruud>can be done even before game loads
19:33<Gonozal_VIII>so again... why realtime, if you only need one (or four) images?
19:33<Ruud>only things that affect the rendering need to be rerendered in-game
19:33<@Bjarni>but converting them from 32 bit to 8 bit is slower than the process you try to get rid of
19:33[~]Rubidium thinks aqua regia is the best solution for this problem
19:33<Belugas_Gone>with over 5000 sprites cached... brrrr...
19:34<Ruud>which process i am trying to get rid off?
19:34<Rubidium>Belugas_Gone: 5000? That way to low number
19:34<Ruud>I am just trying to ADD a process, along with the exisiting one
19:34<Ruud>never said it would replace it
19:34<@Bjarni>Ruud: loading grf sprites
19:34<Rubidium>all vehicles sprites count at least 16 times
19:34<Belugas_Gone>Rubidium : right... thus the over ;)
19:34<Rubidium>and then at least 3 zoom levels
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19:35<Ruud>i think there are not a lot of objects in the game
19:35<Ruud>some vehicles, some trees, some buildings
19:35<Rubidium>Ruud: keep thinking
19:35<Ruud>nothing compared to what a modern FPS of objects have
19:35<Ruud>which are rendered realtime
19:35<Ruud>at least 30 times a second
19:36<Ruud>with objects who are *way* more complex then, say an industrial station
19:36<Rubidium>but then, a modern FPS doesn't run under MorphOS
19:36<Ruud>MorphOS doesnt support OpenGL?
19:36<Rubidium>and a modern FPS would be totally unplayable on my laptop
19:37<ln->done watching TNG [x]
19:37<@Bjarni><Ruud> MorphOS doesnt support OpenGL? <-- not really
19:37<Ruud>MorhOS==some linux derivate>
19:37<Rubidium>an AmigaOS derivate
19:37<@Bjarni>also BeOS only supports software rendered OpenGL
19:37<@Bjarni>Ruud: you don't even know the platforms we support?
19:38<Ruud>no, i don't even know the platforms we support ;)
19:38<Rubidium>and OS2 doesn't support OpenGL either I think
19:38<Ruud>but it can be optional
19:38<@Bjarni>I worked on making the game work on MorphOS long before you even heard of our game
19:38<@Bjarni>possibly years before you heard about it
19:38<Ruud>I mean, it can just be a setting like right now
19:39<Ruud>if u dont have opengl, then good ol' prerendered sprites are used :)
19:39<@Bjarni>well.. mainly to kai worked on MorphOS, but we did talk a whole lot about it
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19:39<Ruud>if u do have opengl, then u have some extra graphics feats :)
19:40<ln->Rubidium: i think Warp 4 has support for OpenGL.
19:40<@Bjarni>we aren't going to have two graphic rendering systems
19:40<Ruud>why did u do it?
19:40<@Bjarni>because I could :)
19:40<Ruud>it is not a different graphic rendering systenm
19:40<@Bjarni>and I had just finished the OSX port
19:40<Ruud>it is a different way to acquire the graphic data
19:40<Gonozal_VIII>your idea would require all grf developers to use the same 3d graphics program
19:40<Ruud>graphics are rendered in the same way, using efficient, fast C code :)
19:41<@Bjarni>Ruud: if the displayed graphics are the same then there is no need to do so. If they aren't then you are rendering something else, right?
19:41<Ruud>the 3D lib can be programmed to accept different types of 3D models?
19:41<Ruud>the displayed graphics, at first, are the same
19:41<Ruud>later you might add features which can be added cuz of the 3D rendering
19:41<Gonozal_VIII>lots of work to get it to support all and keep it up to date
19:42<Ruud>i know
19:42<Rubidium>well... first make sure that there is a decent set of models (i.e. one that includes all graphics) before we even start to consider it
19:42<Ruud>isnt one there?
19:42<Rubidium>well... NO
19:42<Ruud>what do yo mean exaclty with that>
19:42<Ruud>"decent set of models"
19:42<Rubidium>one that includes all graphics
19:43<Ruud>ah off course
19:43<Rubidium>and not only a few
19:43<Ruud>thats why an ottd install still needs the ttdlx install dir :)
19:43<Gonozal_VIII>usually the sprites aren't drawn in 3d, except the 32bpp
19:43<Rubidium>yes, because it used TTD's graphics
19:44<Rubidium>and for 32bpp there are only a few sprites that are done
19:44<Ruud>so 32bpp sprites ARE possible?
19:44<Rubidium>not even 5%
19:44<Gonozal_VIII>are possible and exist
19:44<Ruud>then i do not understand the problem with the 8 bit thingie?
19:44<Rubidium>but at quite a performance disadvantage
19:45<Ruud>ah, so rendering a whole 2Kx2K map is quite harsh?
19:45<Rubidium>Ruud: you still needs stuff for palette animation
19:45<Ruud>you are alive!
19:45<Rubidium>no, it's his both saying hmm every now and then
19:45<Ruud>I have a question
19:45<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
19:45<Rubidium>see, it's a bot!
19:46<SpComb>pong indeed
19:46<SpComb>I was offline
19:46<SpComb>ask away
19:46<Ruud>u created some neat webcam thingie
19:47<Ruud>i created a google-maps style webcomponent to view savegames in a browser
19:47<Gonozal_VIII>rat watch thing or what do you mean?
19:47<Gonozal_VIII>ah that
19:47<Gonozal_VIII>not webcam^^
19:47<SpComb>savegames? It works already?
19:47<Ruud>yes, have a screencast demo
19:47<SpComb>url to it?
19:48<Ruud>written in JS+HTTML+CSS
19:48<Ruud>somewhere on RS, hold on
19:48<Ruud>50meg file
19:48<SpComb>it's not online anywhere?
19:48<Ruud>u using windows?
19:49<Ruud>my question is
19:49<@Bjarni>windows is for people who don't know what a real computer OS is
19:49<Ruud>(need to explain problem first)
19:49<SpComb>a Shockwave flash that renders an OpenTTD savegame?
19:49<Ruud>javascript code that displays images google-maps style
19:50<Ruud>with some CSS+HTML for eyecandy
19:50<SpComb>you're confusing me slightly
19:50[~]Rubidium doesn't like the google-maps style
19:50<Gonozal_VIII>swf is flash
19:50<SpComb>what's the sc.swf that you linked to?
19:50<Ruud>it is a screencast
19:50<SpComb>oh right, it's a video of it?
19:50<Ruud>cuz my router died, my server isnt connected to the web
19:51<Ruud>for some reason my webserver on my client wont server to the outside world
19:51<Ruud>the way it works right now
19:51<SpComb>it's downloading. What was the question that you wanted to ask, then?
19:51<Rubidium>ofcourse not, it's not on your local network... so nobody can access it; default MS policy
19:51<Ruud>is a savegame is screenshotted, creating a huge (hundreds of megapixel) image
19:52<Ruud>it should, but its a story ill explain later
19:52<Ruud>the huge image then is sliced up in 256x256 btmaps
19:52<Ruud>which are served using javascript to the browser
19:52<Ruud>now it would be neat
19:52<Rubidium>and randomly an image is shown of the wrong zoom level
19:53<Ruud>to have a library/openttd forkish software to generate the image from he savegame in realtime
19:53<Ruud>cuz now i have to make a screenshot, shrink it x times (where x= number of zoom levels) then slice all images into smaller squares
19:54<Ruud>which is not only CPU consuming, but also space consuming
19:54<Rubidium>Ruud: you can do everything except the zooming already using pipes
19:54<Ruud>what/how do you mean? "do everything"?
19:55<SpComb>you can script my current code to have OpenTTD load the savegame, and then just use my webcam thing as-is
19:55<SpComb>Sacro: that's what I'm writing, kind of. A binary API inside OpenTTD
19:55<Ruud>thats what im looking for :)
19:55<SpComb>you've seen ?
19:55<Rubidium>would a binary API be needed?
19:55<Ruud>the ideal situation would be to have a function like
19:55<Sacro>SpComb: indeed
19:55<Rubidium>just use the screenshot and savegame load commands from the dedicated server
19:56<SpComb>Rubidium: wouldn't work for my webcam thing
19:56<Rubidium>hmm, but Ruud doesn't like that because would be a 25+ year old design that hasn't changed a bit
19:56<Ruud>GetSquareFromSavegame(string filename, int x1, int y1, int x2, int y2, ImageType type)
19:56<Rubidium>SpComb: why not?
19:56<Ruud>Rubidium, that is not fair
19:57<Ruud>the dev.myottd link is dead
19:57<SpComb>Ruud: I just started it up
19:58<SpComb>my current issue is that I have some bug with my code and the OpenTTD viewport/screenshot code, it crashes if you try and make a screenshot with half a sign
19:58<SpComb>Ruud: do you want the savegame to be paused, or running in real-time?
19:58<Ruud>that code i looked into in the svn tree
19:59<Ruud>but doesnt matter much
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19:59<Ruud>I think I will also implement timeshifting
19:59<Ruud>a slider where the user can change the time of the savegame
20:00<Ruud>(in that case u would need multiple savegames off course)
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20:00<SpComb>paused makes a huge difference, you can cache it
20:00<SpComb>one of my biggest issues is that you can't cache anything - lots of load on the server
20:01<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm command log :-)
20:01<Ruud>in other words: u cant make a copy of the game graphics, fire a new thread, and then genreate the image?
20:01<SpComb>not sure what you mean with that, what do you need a thread for?
20:01<Ruud>nvm, i messed up with a prev discussion
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20:02<Ruud>anyway, looking to that code it seems not to be very hard to create some kind of lib to generate images from savegames?
20:02<SpComb>you need to add an API function to load a savegame, pause it, and then start grabbing screenshots from it
20:03<Ruud>never fought with c++
20:03|-|a1270 [] has joined #openttd
20:03<Ruud>will try though, i know c# quite well
20:03<SpComb>the HTTP server is written in Python:
20:04<SpComb>and then the JS code:
20:04<Gonozal_VIII>generate a savegame every month and log commands between them, then the important things like rail layout changes can be watched while stuff like tree growth doesn't need to be stored :-)
20:04<SpComb>and then the python code to interact with OpenTTD:
20:05<Ruud>thats just loading an external dll and fire some functions in it
20:05<Ruud>sounds pretty straightforward
20:05<SpComb>the stuff is under active development, so I'm interested in working together with anyone else on it
20:06<Ruud>are u interested in creating/helping create such a tool?
20:06<SpComb>spec it out a little bit more specifically. Would the user upload a .sav, and then be able to look at it? Some kind of directory of them?
20:07<SpComb>my main goal is MyOTTD - the webcam thing is kind of me getting sidetracked a bit to create something cool :)
20:07<Ruud>very simplistic
20:07<Ruud>an openttd server just uploads savegames to a webdir
20:07<Rubidium>Brianetta's webcam worked without and fancy changes to OpenTTD itself
20:08<Ruud>on the website, a new item in the list of savegames appears
20:08<SpComb>Rubidium: you can't compare it with the one (although it's slightly questionable what purpose it serves)
20:08<Ruud>user clicks on savegame, wants to see it in the browser
20:08<Ruud>then browser reqs some images
20:08<SpComb>Rubidium: modifying the code in OpenTTD opens up a whole new world of possibilities. I was aware that people would complain, but I don't agree
20:09<SpComb>right, I recall you saying that this was for openttdcoop?
20:09<Ruud>webserver opens ottd dll, reqs the image from the savegame
20:09<Ruud>sends to user
20:09<Rubidium>SpComb: I have no problem with people modifying the code
20:09<Ruud>now when the image is requested, a function on the dll is called like mentioned before
20:10<Rubidium>the 'only' problem with it is that most people want 'support' from the OpenTTD developers
20:10<SpComb>Ruud: the way that would work for me is that it creates a new OpenTTD process, loads the savegame into it, pauses it, and then starts serving up screenshot tiles from it
20:10<Ruud>the script on the website handles the "which savegame to get" logic
20:10<Rubidium>and especially OpenTTDCoop's so-called desyncs start to get annoying
20:10<Ruud>right, exactly the way I thought it probably should work
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20:11<Ruud>the function also needs a parameter zoomlevel
20:11<SpComb>I'd be interested in writing the OpenTTD-side code, and the Python code for it as well
20:11<Ruud>very cool!
20:11<SpComb>my webcam handles zoom levels
20:12<Ruud>All I need is a function in an external DLL with a signature of:
20:12<Ruud>GetSquareFromSavegame(string filename, int x1, int y1, int x2, int y2, int zoomlevel)
20:12<SpComb>define: DLL. What software environment would it run under?
20:13<Ruud>i use VS2005/.NET
20:13<SpComb>I only do linux C and Python
20:13<Ruud>but i guess a custom written webserver shich just serves the images would be sufficient too
20:14<Ruud>cuz oin the end, the image loaded is just a url
20:14<Ruud>which then can be something like etc following the signature
20:15<Ruud>or some other implemetation
20:15<Ruud>and all the functionality is just javscript code, so that will work with any AJAX environment
20:16<Ruud>Cuz it also needs other information, i plan to add a window holding savegame info
20:16<Ruud>company info etc
20:16<Ruud>but that is only later
20:16<Ruud>first thing to have finished is the zooming, viewing & panning of the component
20:16<SpComb>the webcam has a list of vehicles, but it's normally not very noticeable because there's no vehicles in the game
20:17<Ruud>once that works reliably, fast & cross browser then i will add things
20:18<SpComb>I already have working zoom/scrolling, it's pretty cross-browser, realiable, although the way I implemented focus-zoom has caused some performance hits, but those are easily fixed, not fundamental problems
20:18<SpComb>have you tried using ?
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20:20<Ruud>works quite well
20:20<Ruud>nice work!
20:20<Ruud>though wouldnt work on IE & opera
20:21<Ruud>well, it seems my work was redundant :)
20:22<SpComb>most of the code uses PrototypeJS, there's just some induvidual Mozillaizms
20:22<SpComb>I haven't really tested it in non-mozilla browsers, although a couple friends of mine that use Konqueror haven't complained too much
20:23<Ruud>i was planning on using moo.fx
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20:24<Ruud>great. This will be a very nice addition to websites like or
20:25<SpComb>I haven't really thought the actual use-cases through that much, just concentrated on getting it to work, since it's cool and fun to write :)
20:25<Ruud>it stutters when i zoom out though
20:25<Ruud> i would imagine that when there is a link on those websites, there can salso be a link "preview sceanrio/savegame"
20:26<SpComb>currently it always has all four zoom layers visible, z-indexed on top of eachother, it makes firefox have to resample the images a lot, which is slow
20:26<SpComb>but that can be fixed by only showing two layers at a time, and only showing one after zoom is done
20:26<Ruud>simply setting the visible property false on the other layers would help?
20:28<SpComb>yeah, hiding the other layers gets rid of the latency
20:28<SpComb>I only need to figure out how to tell when all the images have loaded and the zoom is complete, then I can hide the other layers again
20:28<Ruud>some kind of DOM event, i think
20:28<SpComb>currently if you scroll around, it will show you blown up previous zoom levels before the current zoom level loads - google maps doesn't work like that
20:28<Ruud>how can we join forces efficiently?
20:29<Ruud>googlemaps *used* to work like that, i am sure.
20:29<Ruud>i was thinking on adding preloading logic
20:30<Ruud>so the surrounding area is already loaded when the user pans to it
20:30<Ruud>so delays are less
20:30<Ruud>when panning
20:31<SpComb>entirely possible, but there's a couple bigger issues to fix first
20:31|-|Eddi|zuHause2 [] has joined #openttd
20:31<SpComb>I've registered #myottd - perhaps we shouldn't flood this channel too badly
20:31<Ruud>--> swith
20:34<shodan>strange question, but can anyone read music here? and if so...
20:34<shodan>what classic video game is this music from?
20:35<shodan>wow, myottd looks good
20:36<SpComb> or Former's slightly stale, latter is something interesting
20:36<shodan>dev :)
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20:38<SpComb>then I agree :)
20:45<Sacro>shodan: go on
20:46[~]Sacro is lacking a keyboard
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21:58<Smoovious>shodan... well, I can read the music, but it doesn't ring a bell, sorry
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22:20<TheJosh>hey all
22:20<MDGrein>anyone awake?
22:20<TheJosh>hey i had a few ideas for patches. can u give me thoughts so I can deside if I should code em or not?
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22:23<TheJosh>one patch would be an improved way to upgrade tracks, where you specify the old track -> new track, and the old trains -> new trains. Then you send all to depo, you click the button, it upgrades all the lines and changes the trains
22:23<TheJosh>fairly complex patch though; tricky
22:24<TheJosh>another idea was a simple programming interface available to scenario editors, a system of triggers. each trigger would have one or more conditions, which would all have to match, and if they did then one or more specified actions would be executed
22:24<MDGrein>like the starcraft/warcraft 3 triggers
22:24<TheJosh>simple scripting system, allowing end conditions in scenarios, as well as other clever stuff
22:25<TheJosh>my ideas are based on the starcraft triggers because they are much simpler
22:25<MDGrein>prefer them aswell
22:25<TheJosh>the full on scripting in war3 is cool, lots of power but too confusing
22:26<TheJosh>whats your thoughts?
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22:26<MDGrein>would be a nice contrubution
22:26<MDGrein>would make the scenarios more "alive"
22:27<TheJosh>if done well
22:29<TheJosh>i was going to have the conditions be things like money, points. with greater than, less than, etc.
22:29<TheJosh>number trains/road/aircraft/ships/total
22:30<TheJosh>and then have the actions as all the the DoCommand2 actions
22:33<TheJosh>thanks for your input
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 09 00:00:21 2007