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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-01-17

---Logopened Thu Jan 17 00:00:26 2008
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02:24*roboman wonders why when he runs openttd normally it cant connect to the openttdcoop server
02:24<roboman>the server doesnt unpause for me properly
02:24<roboman>yet if i set the priority of openttd to higher in taskmanager it all works fine
02:25<roboman>the nightly in use is yesterdays for me
02:25<roboman>im pretty sure thats it
02:28<@peter1138>openttdcoop has a minimum player requirement
02:28<roboman>yeah but if there are enough players primarily 2 or more
02:29<roboman>the server by default pauses while a client connects but for me it doesnt seem to do that weather my computer isnt keeping up with server
02:29<roboman>or if its my connection
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05:29<UnderBuilder>one question: will be possible to create irregular map sizes? (eg 400x600, 700x140, 2600x840, etc.)?
05:30<Gonozal_VIII>2^x * 2^y
05:31<UnderBuilder>I mean, will be hard modifying that?
05:33<Gonozal_VIII>why do you want that strange sizes?
05:37<Gonozal_VIII>i mean... that wouldn't be much different to 512*512, 1024*128 and 2048*1024 gameplay wise
05:38<UnderBuilder>I want a 1337*1337 map :P
05:39<Gonozal_VIII>then you would need ascii art newgrf
05:40<Gonozal_VIII>it's not allowed to play a 1337*1337 map without them
05:40<UnderBuilder>other thing I want is to create larger-thicker maps like 4096x1024
05:41<Gonozal_VIII>there's a patch for that
05:41<UnderBuilder>yes... the trouble is that it isn't yet in trunk
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05:43<Gonozal_VIII>right.. i guess everything up to the same number of tiles as 2048*2048 should get into trunk
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05:46<Gonozal_VIII>2048*2048, 1024*4096, 512*8192, 256*16384, 128*32768 and 64*65536 as the biggest maps...
05:48<Tefad>hopefully those datatypes are unsigned 16bit or larger
05:54<@peter1138>no, it won't be changed
05:54<@peter1138>it's powers of two for the reason
05:56<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm dropdowns can be changed dynamically? that means you can allow bigger y size if x size is smaller than 2048?
05:59<@peter1138>you coudl
06:10<Gonozal_VIII>while(selectedsize1 * size2 <= 4194304) {adddropdownthingy(size2); size2 *= 2;} :-)
06:14<Gonozal_VIII>that bad?^^
06:19<Noldo>why can't you just calculate it without the loop
06:22<Gonozal_VIII>every loop adds a dropdown choice thingy... i have no idea how the real code works
06:24<Gonozal_VIII>idea was to start size2 with 64 and a empty dropdown list and if there is 65k choosen in the other dropdown it only adds 64 and stops
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06:40<@peter1138>64 * 65536 probably wouldn't work :p
06:41<Gonozal_VIII>well, there's not much landmass then in chrisin...
06:42<Gonozal_VIII>but it is playable...
06:43<Gonozal_VIII>i guess the old map generator would generate more land...
06:44<@peter1138>lol, overflows :o
06:46<Gonozal_VIII>overflows? where?
06:46<@peter1138>if (1 << x * 1 << y > 2048 * 2048) ...
06:46<@peter1138>1 << 16 * 1 << 16 == ...
06:47<@peter1138>yeah, 64 x 65536 is silly indeed
06:48<Zahl>who cares about overflows as long as you can somehow play it... that is, some trains are moving in some way doing something
06:49<@peter1138>my system is maxed out just running an empty a 64 x 65536 map :o
06:49<@peter1138>and 2.8 GHz isn't that slow
06:50<Zahl>we need multicore support
06:50<Gonozal_VIII>i ran a much larger map without problems
06:50<@peter1138>i've got about a million industries though
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06:51<Forked>8192x8192 gave me a world population of some 15 million...
06:52<Forked>the town names don't look too original when there are 12000+ of them :) scrolling down the list
06:55<Gonozal_VIII>well... 8192^2 just doesn't make sense, nobody could ever connect everything there and even if he could, no computer could run it
06:55<Forked>true, I just had to try it
06:55<Forked>my bus did not move very fast.. and this is an athlon64 x2 6400+ (dualcore 3.2GHz) with 4GB ram :)
06:56<Gonozal_VIII>savegame size?^^
06:56<Forked>I didn't try :\
06:56<Forked>took forever to generate the map though
06:56<Forked>looked pretty maxed out on industries .. 4096 farms, 2048 of everything else except oil rigs
06:57<Gonozal_VIII>with ecs industries, the map generation would have taken some years^^
06:58<@peter1138>heh, yeah
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07:26<Sacro>SmatZ: do more signalling stuff!
07:26<SmatZ>Sacro: roger that, sir!
07:26<Sacro>SmatZ: no rogering till Bjarni gets here
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08:17<Dominik>what does the red dot that sometimes shows up in the status bar mean?
08:19<Dominik>i have autosave disabled though
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08:29<Dominik>found it. main_gui.cpp:1783 "...// Red blot to show there are new unread newsmessages"
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08:35<UnderBuilder>is possible to hack openttd so it doesn't prompt you for the original newgrfs and you can use instead other newgrfs?
08:36<UnderBuilder>newgrfs=OpenGFX etc
08:36<UnderBuilder>original grfs*
08:37<Ammler>open means opensource, so it should be possible, I guess, it would be possible with closed source too
08:37<Gonozal_VIII>ok... everything is possible
08:37<Ammler>yes :)
08:38<Roujin>easiest way: use blank trg* files
08:38<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't work because there's no replacement for everything yet
08:39<Roujin>well but that's what he asked for
08:39<Roujin>everything that's not replaced by a newgrf will be missing, that's true.
08:39<Ammler>invisible climate :)
08:40<Gonozal_VIII>openttd for blind people^^
08:41<UnderBuilder>so, technically is possible but you will not see anything
08:41<UnderBuilder>not even the cursor
08:41<Gonozal_VIII>there are cursor replacements
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08:41<Gonozal_VIII>but lots of other sprites are missing
08:44<@peter1138>UnderBuilder, it is possible as long as you replacements to use
08:44<@peter1138>else it'll probably crash
08:45<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm it shouldn't crash
08:45<Gonozal_VIII>just everything white...
08:45<@peter1138>yeah, well
08:45<@peter1138>the code assumes all the sprites are available
08:45<@peter1138>it knows they are, because the md5sums match
08:46<Gonozal_VIII>ah... doesn't start with wrong md5 sum
08:47<Roujin>hm? for me if i mess with the trg* files, it only complains, but starts nevertheless
08:47<@peter1138>but if they don't match, we don't care about bug reports ;)
08:48<@peter1138>actually the main reason for requiring them to match has now been fixed
08:48<Roujin>(where mess means decode, draw around some stuff, encode again)
08:49<Roujin><@peter1138> actually the main reason for requiring them to match has now been fixed <-- what was this reason if i may ask?
08:49<Gonozal_VIII>doing that with the .lng files doesn't work...
08:49<@peter1138>vehicle collision hash used to depend on sprite sizes
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09:04<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
09:05<Forked>lets go!
09:06<Gonozal_VIII>spann den wagen an
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09:09<LA[lord]>Gonozal_VIII: ?
09:09<Gonozal_VIII>he's not here
09:11<Roujin>denn der wind treibt regen übers land
09:11<LA[lord]> too bad then...
09:12<Roujin>it's not off topic :P it's a song about transporting grain ;)
09:13<Gonozal_VIII>there comes rain, get the grain!
09:15<LA[lord]>Bend the venture because of the wind driven rain over land... hmm strange songs you have there..
09:15<LA[lord]>google translation
09:16<Gonozal_VIII>google translation sucks^^
09:16<Roujin>hehe ^^
09:16<Roujin>i wouldn't know how to translate it properly either... :P
09:18<Roujin>it's a bit outdated speech.. someone is told to make the horse carriage ready so they can get the grain <- something like that
09:20<Roujin>so basically, it's someone giving you a subsidy offer for grain from a farm to a factory restricted to road vehicles, in combination with a newgrf that introduces horse carriages ;)
09:21<LA[lord]>ahh now that I can understand clearly
09:21<LA[lord]>before your words didn't make any sense...'
09:21<Gonozal_VIII>and a weather newgrf
09:22<LA[lord]>hmm... I've got an idea...
09:22<Gonozal_VIII>oh noes
09:22<LA[lord]>replace transmitters with cloud animation which has some rain sometimes :P
09:22<lolman>LA[lord]: don't think too hard, your head may asplode
09:22<LA[lord]>lolman: true tru....KABOOOMM
09:23<Gonozal_VIII>erm.... clouds move^^
09:23<Roujin>lord: next step: make a patch so transmitters can move over the map xD
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09:23<LA[lord]>hmm, what about a airplane disguised as cloud :P
09:23<Roujin>i'd like to see a game with that patch but without the grf then xD
09:23<LA[lord]>too good..
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09:24<LA[lord]>Roujin: you make a patch, I can't code :P
09:24<LA[lord]>hello dih
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09:25<Gonozal_VIII>ha... a lightning disaster... cloud moves around like the ufo but instead of landing on a track it hits electrified track with lightning... destroying the wires (converting the track to normal rail)
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09:27<dih>hey there Frost
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09:30<Vikthor>Gonozal_VIII: Dunno I would say only break down the vehicle, wires tend to be replaced pretty fast and the electrical equipment should be suffitiently protected.
09:32<Gonozal_VIII>kind of pointless if there's just a vehicle broken down.. they do that all the time anyways
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09:33<Vikthor>I see, but on the other hand demolishing the electrification adds more micromanagement
09:34<LA[lord]>yes.. and if you disable breakdowns you usually play w/o disasters too...
09:34<Gonozal_VIII>default ufos destroy tracks...
09:34<Vikthor>Maybe thats quite enough then?
09:36<Gonozal_VIII>maybe a longer duration of those breakdowns
09:36<Gonozal_VIII>that could also happen with a derailment disaster
09:38<Gonozal_VIII>but i don't like random things like that that much anyways...
09:39<Gonozal_VIII>when something goes wrong i want to know why and be able to change it
09:40<Vikthor>Yes, derailment could be very annoying if you could not prevent it by eg. increased maintainance funding
09:41<Gonozal_VIII>track maintainance and building cost should be much higher anyways
09:42<hylje>road and rail quality levels
09:42<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm yes
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09:43<hylje>of course poor quality rail -- to a certain extent -- should allow safe operation at slower speeds
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09:44<hylje>and the quality should be determined between junctions (one could one-up and one-down them wiht a tool?)
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09:44<rave>what's the tile type of purchased land?
09:45<rave>MP_CLEAR & GetTileOwner?
09:45<SmatZ>rave: MP_UNMOVABLE
09:45<SmatZ>I think
09:47<Gonozal_VIII>rave.. while you're working at those tiles, make them use grass sprites, not cleared
09:53<+glx>yes MP_UNMOVABLE
09:53<rave>with unmovable type UNMOVABLE_OWNED_LAND
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09:59<rave>the search function in Eclipse is so broken
10:00<rave>it only finds a small proportion of the true number of matches
10:07<LA[lord]>is there any keyboard shortcut to fast forward that would sticky the FF button? tab only makes FF until you hold it down..
10:08<Gonozal_VIII>as long as, not until :-)
10:08<Gonozal_VIII><-- very helpful
10:10<LA[lord]>my English is 5 in school (A in some other countries) but I just don't be pedantic, when i'm on IRC
10:10<LA[lord]>I just am not*
10:10<LA[lord]>or something ;P
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10:13<Gonozal_VIII>btw the word pedantic is incorrect, you should use dalestanish instead
10:13<Gonozal_VIII>*takes cover*
10:14*hylje pre-emptively smacks Gonozal_VIII with a large fish
10:14<Gonozal_VIII>et tu, hylje?
10:17<rave>Gonozal_VIII: I don't think setting the sprite to grass looks any better
10:17<Gonozal_VIII>why not?
10:17<Gonozal_VIII>the signs are ok, the brown stuff looks ugly
10:17<rave>because it looks strange if it wasn't originally grass
10:18<Gonozal_VIII>you mean stone or bumpy?
10:18<rave>and the wasteland symbolises it being unusable
10:18<Gonozal_VIII>well... desert should work
10:18<Gonozal_VIII>there are a lot of things that use default terrain as ground sprite
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10:22<Sacro>Greyscale: stfu
10:22<Greyscale>Stupid wifi.
10:23<Eddi|zuHause3>stuff you?
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10:27<rave>shut the
10:27<Gonozal_VIII>frag up
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10:41<LA[lord]>how many tiles does the city airport take? (too lazy to check out)
10:42<Gonozal_VIII>where lots can have a different value everytime it's used
10:42<SmatZ>too lazy to check out, but not too lazy to ask?
10:43*Belugas is too lazy to answer
10:44*keyweed isn't to lazy to copy a question to google.
10:44<SmatZ>omg USA is going to build in our country an Army base
10:44<SmatZ>I hate my goverment!
10:44<Gonozal_VIII>they have army bases almost everywhere
10:44<SmatZ>Gonozal_VIII: that's another reason not to build it here
10:44<UnderBuilder>would be nice if instead of buying shares by 25% you can buy them in 1% steps
10:45<keyweed>SmatZ: it gives your country to steal the hardware there when you need it.
10:45<Gonozal_VIII>shares don't work well enough to do that
10:45<SmatZ>keyweed: rather a more danger of being a victim of some country USA is in war with
10:45<Gonozal_VIII>you could but it wouldn't make sense
10:45<dih>lol @ Belugas
10:45<dih>hello by the way ^^
10:46<keyweed>like the nukes that are NOT present at the secret airbase at volkel which are not being guarded by a small contingent of american soldiers who are not there.
10:46<Gonozal_VIII>where's volkel?
10:46<keyweed>SmatZ: rather that then the USA bringing democracy and freedom to your country
10:46<keyweed>Gonozal_VIII: the netherlands
10:47<@Belugas>[10:50] <UnderBuilder> would be nice if instead of buying shares by 25% you can buy them in 1% steps<--- i do not thik so... Not at all. Why? For what reasons?
10:47<Gonozal_VIII>wtf they have nukes in europe
10:47<SmatZ>keyweed: yeah, we all love USA and USA's democracy
10:47<@Belugas>hey dih
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10:48<keyweed>i especially love the new definition of torture.
10:48-!-mikl [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
10:48<keyweed>i'd love to not torture Bush.
10:48<UnderBuilder>could be useful with this
10:48-!-Thijs [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:48<keyweed>but i'll shut up now, this isn't a political channel.
10:49<Gonozal_VIII>if you have shares of a company in rl you don't get parts of every income they have
10:50<Gonozal_VIII>such a company wouldn't last very long^^
10:51<UnderBuilder>what about if you get 2500 from 10000 of the income but the other player still gets 10000?
10:51<Gonozal_VIII>they can decide to give some of the profit to the shareholders but most of it gets reinvested
10:52<@Belugas>let's call it monopoly tycoon...
10:52<@Belugas>Hey guys! THIS IS TRANSPORT!
10:53<Gonozal_VIII>belugas, that wasn't a feature request, that was how it is in rl... dividends wouldn't make sense ingame
10:54<Gonozal_VIII>the only profit you should make with shares is through a higher resell value if the company value increased
10:54<LA[lord]>if you want to play on stock market, play Railroad Tycoon...
10:56<LA[lord]>openrrtd :P
10:57<Gonozal_VIII>it should be like that: a company offers to sell part of its shares... they don't get sold until somebody buys them... the money gets substracted from the buyer and added to the seller
10:57<SmatZ>keyweed: not torture?
10:57<rave>how does the shares bug work? or did it work?
10:57<keyweed>SmatZ: water dunking isn't torture. or so they claim
10:57<UnderBuilder>well, I'm better putting my eyes on
10:57<keyweed>SmatZ: keeping people awake for days isn't either.
10:58<rave>or is water dunking the new alternative?
10:58<UnderBuilder>Open TT SimCity Deluxe
11:00<@Belugas>so freakingly booooring
11:05<rave>if you own over 50% of the shares you should be asked about every build attempt they make ;)
11:05<Gonozal_VIII>there are also shares without that right
11:06<UnderBuilder>or maybe you can purchase a max of 10% shares
11:06*dih slaps Belugas booooringness
11:06<dih>any better?
11:07<dih>but you cannot say i didn't try :-P
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11:12<Gonozal_VIII>got a test in about an hour...
11:13<UnderBuilder>idea: limited construction area like in RCT
11:13<rave>I haven't played rct
11:13<Gonozal_VIII>limited construction area? what/how?
11:14<Gonozal_VIII>the construction area is limited by the map edges^^
11:14<UnderBuilder>each player buys their own area to build their stuff
11:14<LA[lord]>ok.. I'll get away now.. if me being needed, call me :)
11:15*Sacro has ordered his parts
11:15<Gonozal_VIII>you can buy exclusive transport rights, that's bad enough ;-)
11:16<UnderBuilder>you define where do you want to build
11:16<Gonozal_VIII>with that buy area thing some players would just buy 1 tile wide stripes of land through the whole map and block everything
11:17<UnderBuilder>you can already do that with signs...
11:17<Gonozal_VIII>but that's not draggable... your request implies large areas to be bought before construction... annoying without dragging
11:18<UnderBuilder>or maybe the map is divided into eight predefined zones, one for each player
11:19<Gonozal_VIII>or maybe stop playing multiplayer and everybody plays alone^^
11:20<UnderBuilder>or maybe you can build over enemy's area but with higher costs than usual
11:21<UnderBuilder>however you can't build over unowned area
11:21<rave>what's the purpose?
11:21<Gonozal_VIII>hehe just wanted to ask that
11:21<UnderBuilder>new section: too much work for negative benefit
11:21<UnderBuilder>it will be like your space in the internet
11:22<UnderBuilder>see windows live spaces
11:22*frosch123 is disappointed, today there are less than 100 new sprites in the 8bpp-replacement thread.
11:22<Eddi|zuHause3><Gonozal_VIII> 404 <- i believe that was kinda the point :p
11:23<rave>I've got a better idea for a mod, Find Servers gets clicked automatically when viewing the multiplayer page with an option to hide servers with 0 players
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11:23<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm didn't purchasing land close to cities used to be more expensive?
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11:25<Gonozal_VIII>Find Servers gets clicked automatically <-- not good, there are the servers from the cfg first
11:25<yorick>is there any suggestion of being able to chat with people ingame without having to join?
11:25<Gonozal_VIII>you have to search for them if you want to play on one of them
11:25<UnderBuilder>other idea, what if the big airports can be used by each player, due to its huge size (how do you want to build two intercontinental airports)
11:25<yorick>rave: I cant join, I dont have the needed grf;s
11:25<Eddi|zuHause3>yorick: the server owner can run autopilot as an irc bridge
11:25<yorick>and if he doesn't?
11:26<Eddi|zuHause3>then you are screwed
11:26<Gonozal_VIII>then you can'T
11:26<rave>you could patch openttd to allow a join
11:26<yorick>I don't know any c++
11:26<Gonozal_VIII>if it doesn't pause, you will most likely desync right after the join..
11:27<rave>does sync include the grfs then?
11:27<UnderBuilder>hey, my idea
11:27<Gonozal_VIII>if they change behaviour
11:27<yorick>one with PBI loaded?
11:28<rave>oh up to now I thought grfs were simply media archives
11:28<yorick>they aren't
11:29<yorick>well... other question: does anyone have this grfs:
11:29<yorick>Long vehicles. Scania trucks. Scania GA 4x2, Scania CB 6x4, Scania DB 4x2. 4D656F02 B0CDF5AB98D7B8B3364C5E06BE6910DE
11:29<yorick>Long vehicles. Volvo trucks. Volvo FH16 610. 4D656F03 380E73C6E0627AF7AD474923D970ECE2
11:30<UnderBuilder>repeating, the big airports should be shared since its hard to build two of them in one city
11:30<+glx>yorick: these grfs are outdated (all included in LV4)
11:30<yorick>yes, I know
11:30<yorick>but the server admin doesnt
11:32<Eddi|zuHause3><Gonozal_VIII> if it doesn't pause, you will most likely desync right after the join.. <- you can also patch to ignore desync errors
11:32<yorick>the server will kick you...
11:32<Eddi|zuHause3>on desync error the client says "i give up"
11:32<Eddi|zuHause3>you can remove that line
11:32<yorick>and then?
11:32<rave>you'll be able to chat
11:32<Eddi|zuHause3>then you can stay, just don't trust anything you see
11:32<yorick>when you build something that isn't valid, the server will kick
11:33<Eddi|zuHause3>for any action you do, the server has the right to reject it
11:33<Eddi|zuHause3>but the server does not kick
11:33<yorick>I've seen it do
11:33<yorick>when building as spectator
11:33<rave>it's the client choosing to disconnect automatically, not a kick
11:34<yorick>with the disconnect line saying "(kicked by server)"?
11:34<yorick>but still, I don't know enough about C to patch openttd, and I don't know enough to do a force revision to OpenTTD 0.6.0-beta2
11:35<Sacro>make REVISION=yorickspecial
11:36<yorick>then, I don't have linux or make installed
11:36<Sacro>yorick: edit rev.c then
11:36*dih never made installed
11:36*Eddi|zuHause3 neither
11:37*rave doesn't know if you misunderstand or joke
11:38<yorick>what's the SVN adress of 0.6.0-beta2?
11:39*yorick checks out source
11:39-!-skidd13 [] has joined #openttd
11:40<@Belugas>ther is no tag yet
11:40<@Belugas>it has not been branched
11:41<yorick>I already co-ed it
11:42<dih>what you mean there is not tag Belugas
11:42<skidd13>Anyone of the wiki team in here? My userprofile needs to be updated. And a few other parts regarding developers too.
11:42<yorick>would extern const char _openttd_revision[] = "0.6.0-beta2"; be good?
11:42<Sacro>not as a wife
11:43<+glx>Belugas: each release is tagged ;)
11:44*dih smiles
11:44*Belugas dives in work and shuts up
11:44*dih pats Belugas on the head
11:44<dih>poor you...
11:45<yorick>now comes the hard part(for me), where should I tell it to ignore missing grfs?
11:46<dih>heh - what are you trying to do?
11:46<UnderBuilder>what is keeping ottd from increasing maximum companies number up to 16?
11:46<yorick>making OTTD ignore missing grf's and desyncs
11:46<skidd13>UnderBuilder: The will to release 0.6 ATM :D
11:46<dih>you'd probably break at least 2 network packets
11:46<Eddi|zuHause3>dih: i believe he is trying to join a server to talk to the owner about old newgrfs
11:47<dih>and wants a 'client' that does not desync, but can see the client list and so forth
11:47<dih>skidd13: nice answer ^^
11:48<skidd13>dih: diplomatic... I never said that there will not or will be the support :D
11:49<rave>yorick: look for use of NEWGRF_MISMATCH
11:49<dih>that is so nasty ....
11:50<rave>src/network/network.cpp: case NETWORK_RECV_STATUS_NEWGRF_MISMATCH
11:50<UnderBuilder>I miss challenge spinoff too much
11:51*Belugas pities UnderBuilder
11:51*yorick comments out some lines
11:52<UnderBuilder>will be possible to do it with newgrf
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11:54*yorick just changes return value of DEF_CLIENT_RECEIVE_COMMAND(PACKET_SERVER_CHECK_NEWGRFS)
11:55<yorick>ret = NETWORK_RECT_STATUS_OKAY; })
11:55<rave>sounds like you know what you're doing
11:55<@peter1138>it'll never work :o
11:55<@peter1138>rave, totally doesn't :)
11:56<Eddi|zuHause3>,%2011.%20Dez%201958.png <- i somehow have too few diesel freight trains...
11:56<dih>that is just sooo nasty
11:56<rave>it's known as a quick hack
11:56<rave>supposed to be nasty
11:57<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause3, huh?
11:57-!-stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
11:57<yorick>now, lets disable desyncs
11:57<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause3, is that a comment on your game, or a bug? heh
11:57<Eddi|zuHause3>a comment ;)
11:57<@peter1138>ah, i'll go back to safely ignoring it then ;)
11:57<Eddi|zuHause3>or over at least 2 corners a major feature request ;)
11:58<Eddi|zuHause3>(being able to switch diesel and electric engines at stations)
11:59<rave>can anyone recommend a quick image host that doesn't resize my graphic?
11:59<skidd13>rave: ?
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12:00<UnderBuilder>will be nice an openttd mod where cities and industries level up
12:00<Forked>"ding.. level 35! just 51252 xp to 36" ?
12:00<rave>thanks yorick
12:01<yorick>anything I should do at the "// Check if we are in sync!"?
12:01<Sacro>"A section of single track railway line operates between two stations. Explain the options to acheive a pattern of working that avoids collisions on this single track section"
12:02<Eddi|zuHause3>"drive on sight" ;)
12:02-!-Dark_Link^ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:03-!-Gonozal_VIII [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:03<Eddi|zuHause3>"do not let any train drive"
12:03-!-Dark_Link^ [] has joined #openttd
12:03<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause3: this is a CS paper
12:03<Eddi|zuHause3>so? :p
12:03<Sacro>written by an avid train loving lecturer D:
12:04<SmatZ>UnderBuilder: would be nice to make a RPG game based on OTTD
12:04<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm still not over this statistical oddity...
12:05<Eddi|zuHause3>P-Elektrisch < P-Diesel+P-Dampf
12:05<Eddi|zuHause3>D-Elektrisch < D-Diesel+D-Dampf
12:05<Eddi|zuHause3>but G-Elektrisch !< G-Diesel+G-Dampf
12:05<skidd13>SmatZ: World Of OpenTTD :D :D
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12:08<rave>how hard would it be to have a dynamic map size with a user generated landscape? I'm dreaming of World of OpenTTD :P
12:08*yorick has made a diff
12:09*yorick is compiling :)
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12:15<rave>my screenshot is too big for convert to convert :(
12:16<yorick>don't make giants
12:16<yorick>the only program that can save them is openttd
12:16<yorick>NOTHING can load them
12:16<rave>GIMP can
12:16<rave>I just don't have enough disk space
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12:17<yorick>so it cant
12:17<yorick>it takes 100MB for a 1mb png
12:17<yorick>what did you think it would take for a 2gb png?
12:19<rave>it's 56mb
12:20<yorick>error compiling :(, /src/network/network_client.cpp: In function `NetworkRecvStatus NetworkPacketReceive_PACKET_SERVER_CHECK_NEWGRFS_command(Packet*)':
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12:23<yorick>ret = NETWORK_RECT_STATUS_OKAY; did not work indeed
12:24-!-helb [~helb@] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
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12:25<yorick>but why does if (ret == NETWORK_RECV_STATUS_OKAY) { work and replacing it by ret = NETWORK_RECT_STATUS_OKAY; not?
12:25-!-rave [] has joined #openttd
12:25<yorick>(left out the whole if contents)
12:25<rave>computer wouldn't function after all that image processing :P
12:25<rave>yorick: pastedump the lines and full error and I'll fix the syntax for you
12:25<yorick>error compiling :(, /src/network/network_client.cpp: In function `NetworkRecvStatus NetworkPacketReceive_PACKET_SERVER_CHECK_NEWGRFS_command(Packet*)':
12:25<LA[lord]>hello.. back again :)
12:26<yorick>pastedump :S
12:30<rave>should be RECV
12:30<yorick>thanks :)
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12:30<yorick>I thought I copied that...
12:33<yorick>one caracter can make the (diff)erence between compiling and not-compiling
12:34<rave>that's true with lots of things
12:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r11899 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace_gui.cpp autoreplace_gui.h vehicle_gui.cpp): -Cleanup: Remove ShowReplaceVehicleWindow() as it is basically a duplicate of ShowReplaceGroupVehicleWindow().
12:37<@peter1138>"<rave> sounds like you know what you're doing"
12:37*peter1138 > home
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12:39<yorick>its at the d* files now
12:40<yorick>it will reach n* soon
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12:41<yorick>compile network.cpp success
12:41<yorick>wont say its going to work, but it will compile atleast
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12:49<yorick>its downloading map :)
12:50<yorick>could not load savegame :(
12:50<yorick>rave: it doesn't work
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12:51<Eddi|zuHause3>yorick: you also need to change the savegame grf protection
12:52<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think you'll actually manage that, though ;)
12:54<yorick>thanks for telling me right away ;)
12:54<Eddi|zuHause3>the savegame code can be fragile if you hammer it cluelessly ;)
12:55<yorick>but why can I load a game with missing grfs in singleplayer and not in MP?
12:55<Sacro>but i like to hammer things cluelessly
12:55<Eddi|zuHause3>because it causes way less problems in SP, so it is allowed
12:55<yorick>and where is the allowing-disallowing code?
12:55*Rubidium estimates the chance that the game will blow (segfault) due to the missing GRFs before he can do anything useful with it at 95%
12:56<Eddi|zuHause3>yorick: is that one server really worth the trouble?
12:57<yorick>[18:55] <Sacro> but i like to hammer things cluelessly
12:57<yorick>+that patch can be usefull for all servers
12:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11900 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp:
12:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: set correctly crossing state after train reversal, train leaving crossing, train crash
12:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Fixes several ways to leave crossing red forever or to leave it unbarred when there is a train on crossing
12:58<Eddi|zuHause3>yorick: you probably have more chances by just creating an empty savegame and ignore all incoming command packages...
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12:58<Rubidium>yorick: such a patch will *only* cause bugreports about clients doing very strange things when joining a network game when they don't have the required newgrfs
12:59<yorick>I dont want it to be commited
12:59<yorick>just for own use
12:59<Rubidium>and someone then asks for the patch and then it gets really public and ....
13:00<yorick>it won't be committed
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13:00<Rubidium>no, it'll just get included in many private builds and possibly Integrated Nightlies too
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13:01<yorick>is anyone that crazy?
13:01<Eddi|zuHause3>people are all kinds of crazy ;)
13:01<Rubidium>yorick: YES
13:01<Eddi|zuHause3>it's the internet
13:02<Eddi|zuHause3>it's the natural habitat of crazy people
13:02<Rubidium>judging at the crappiness of the MiniIN and the ChrisIN w.r.t. network stability
13:02<+glx>a good example of crazyness is the extra big map patch I think
13:03<yorick>do people submit bug reports to FS about patched versions?
13:03<yorick>well...going for dinner
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13:03-!-yorick is now known as Yorick|AFK
13:03<tneo>Can anyone tell me whether or not all the patch settings are documented and if so where I might find them?
13:05-!-Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
13:07<+glx>tneo: many are documented in the wiki
13:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11901 /trunk/src/ (widget.cpp widgets/dropdown.cpp window_gui.h): -Add: add two widgets for dropdowns, one raised and one inset, to eventually replace use of two widgets for each dropdown control.
13:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11902 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: use new dropdown widget for game options window
13:10<tneo>glx thx, but I don't seem to find more info about the behavior of the the patch "Selecting town-road layout" do you perhaps know more about it?
13:11<+glx>no, sorry
13:12<+glx>Belugas may know
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13:13<@Belugas>waht about those/
13:15<@Belugas>tneo: what about those?
13:17<tneo>Belugas: Where are they for and what do they influence, besides the road layout. e.g. does it influence city growth?
13:18<@Belugas>no, only the layout
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13:18<@Belugas>well... that is as long as i can remember...
13:18<@Belugas>skidd13 did teh actual work, i commited it
13:18<@Belugas>it's been a while, tbh
13:18<@Belugas>but... only the layout indeed
13:20<@Belugas>and i think, if it's not already the case, that each town has the possibility to have its own layout
13:20<@Belugas>if it is not, it will be, one day
13:20<@Belugas>i think the coee has already ben wriiten, not commited
13:21<tneo>Thanks :)
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13:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11903 /trunk/src/signal.cpp: -Fix: try to fix MorphOS compilation
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13:27-!-Yorick|AFK is now known as Yorick
13:28<Yorick>hmm... can anyone tell me in what file the newgrf check for saveload is done?
13:30<Digitalfox>There are modified graphics drivers for windows xp, like omega and DNA.. Anyone heard of the same for Windows Vista? :)
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13:32<Roujin>off for today. see you
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13:38<Yorick>what pervents the say command from executing while downloading map?
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13:41<Sacro>!calc (1 / (7200 / 60)) * 0.5 * 1000
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13:43<Yorick>Sacro: (1 / (7200 / 60)) * 0.5 * 1000 = 4.16666667
13:46<Yorick>what pervents the say command from executing while downloading map?
13:46<+glx>your not a "client" yet
13:47<Yorick>and that's a problem on server-side?
13:47<Yorick>or is it on client-side?
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11904 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Codechange: use dropdown widget in 3 more windows, build vehicle, group vehicle list and station list.
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13:59<rave>Yorick: I'm sorry to hear it didn't work
13:59<rave>what error do you get?
14:00<Yorick>only the couldn't load savegame one
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14:04<Yorick>there is another grf check in the loading code
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14:10<Yorick>rave ?
14:13<Yorick>quiet in here
14:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11905 /trunk/src/player_gui.cpp: -Codechange: add widget enums for player finances and player livery windows
14:14<Yorick>only one saying anything is CIA-1 bot
14:15<Rubidium>it didn't say anything, I did though
14:18<Yorick>where is the newgrf check for savegame loading?
14:19<@Belugas>"Somewhere down the Crazy River"
14:19-!-De_Ghost [] has joined #openttd
14:19<Yorick>you all hate me, don't you?
14:19-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
14:20<@Belugas>but answering stuff that tyu can find yourself is not really my definition of fun, even more when at work
14:21<Yorick>sorry, but I don't know where to find myself
14:22<@Belugas>well... we donot have all of the code's localisation in our head either... which means searching ourselves
14:23<Yorick>hmm... I do not like searching for a few lines of code in 283 files it could be in
14:23<Rubidium>that's where they have invented 'grep' for
14:23<Yorick>on windows?
14:24<@Belugas>i use grep on win XP
14:24<Yorick>+ I don't even know how the code I search looks like
14:24<Rubidium>only if you use one of the 'make windows useful' packs
14:24<@Belugas>there is a search function in MSVC
14:26*Yorick finds grep in msys and copies it over
14:26<@Belugas>by the way, the files are named in a logical manner, thanks to Rubidium. You should be able to find quite easily
14:27<Yorick>looked in saveload.cpp, almost every file in /src/network, saveload.h, etc...
14:30-!-murr4y [murray@2001:5c0:8fff:fffe::78a9] has joined #openttd
14:30<Yorick>I have no clue in what files to look
14:31<Rubidium>you should've a clue what to look for though
14:31<Yorick>yes, but not where...
14:32<Rubidium>everything you need to find the location *within* a minute (assuming the whole repository is cached) has been 'shown' to you already.
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14:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r11906 /trunk/src/lang/german.txt: -Fix: fixed a typo in german language (reported by Botcher0)
14:37<rave>Yorick: what's the exact error message?
14:38<Yorick>Couldn't load savegame
14:39*Yorick found the checking function: bool SafeSaveOrLoad(const char *filename, int mode, int newgm, Subdirectory subdir)
14:39<Yorick>in openttd.cpp
14:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11907 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Codechange: clean up of worldgen/heightmap ui: replace many separate DrawString() calls with widgets, use dropdown widgets, and use consistent positioning/sizing.
14:41*Yorick makes dirty return true; hack
14:41<rave>I can't find that error message in the source
14:42<Eddi|zuHause3>rave: strings are referenced by their ID
14:42<rave>I mean in the language file
14:42<@Belugas>and the real strings are in english.txt
14:42<@Belugas>or..the one you're using
14:43<rave>that's could not load map
14:44<LA[lord]>what do you mean of selectors like this.. if they would be properly aligned and duplicates removed..
14:44<Yorick>didn't I say that?
14:45<rave>< Yorick> Couldn't load savegame
14:46<Yorick>sorry for that
14:47<Yorick>but I've made a dirty return true; hack to fix it
14:48<Yorick>I'm compiling it again
14:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11908 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix: update crossing when merging a company, when building a crossing and after loading older savegame
14:49<Yorick>what are you guys doing with company-merges lately?
14:49<Yorick>seems like you're going to have merges in MP
14:51<SmatZ>Yorick: there are no active intensions for merges in MP
14:51<Eddi|zuHause3>why would they do that?
14:51<SmatZ>though I don't know why it is forbidden
14:52<SmatZ>except lagged commands sent after merge from old player cause him to being kick
14:52<SmatZ>but is it the same as when he benkrupts and become a specator
14:52<Yorick>it would be more of a battle-the one who can buy up all company's first wins!
14:52<SmatZ>but his commands are lagged
14:52<Eddi|zuHause3>i think it's just not sensible to allow with such an unbalanced game
14:53<SmatZ>game master can disable shares....
14:53<Yorick>but why are you doing all these merge edits?
14:54<SmatZ>Yorick: you can still buy AI player in singleplayer
14:54<Yorick>I know
14:54<Eddi|zuHause3>Yorick: because they are bugs?
14:55<Yorick>maybe, because it is unbalanced, the feature should be abandoned?
14:55<Yorick>dunno if anyone uses it
14:55<Yorick>or if anyone would mis it
14:56<SmatZ>similiar with "old AI" and "new AI" - it is so stupid with newgrfs
14:56<SmatZ>and nobody maintains it
14:56<Yorick>does anyone use it?
14:56<Yorick>the old AI will be abandoned
14:57<Yorick>if it's not already
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14:58<Yorick>know how to edit this line to not check for grf's?VV
14:58<Yorick>DrawStringCentered(w->widget[NGWW_DETAILS].left + 115, y, sel->info.version_compatible ? STR_NETWORK_GRF_MISMATCH : STR_NETWORK_VERSION_MISMATCH, TC_FROMSTRING); // server mismatch
14:59<rave>that's just the error
14:59<rave>stop the code that causes that to be called
14:59<Yorick>it is the check for good/bad revision
14:59<rave>that line isn't the check
15:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11909 /trunk/src/ (network/network_gui.cpp news_gui.cpp player_gui.cpp): -Codechange: use dropdown widget for player livery, network lobby/setup and news settings windows
15:00<LA[lord]>good bye
15:00<rave>see ya
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15:02<Yorick>whatelse should I edit then?
15:02<Gonozal_VIII>my are back
15:03<Eddi|zuHause3>Yorick: general advise: don't start with editing
15:03<Yorick>something must set info.version_compatible
15:04<Eddi|zuHause3>i am 99.8% sure you're looking at the completely wrong place
15:04<Yorick>well... I dont need a gui
15:05<Yorick>console join command is enough
15:08<@peter1138>tip: it's not possible to do what you want.
15:08<@peter1138>not without adding a separate chatting protocol
15:09-!-bean_xp [~bean_xp@] has joined #openttd
15:10<Yorick>are you talking about saying things when connecting?
15:10<Yorick>or about not having grf's and still join
15:11<@peter1138>both, probably, heh
15:11<rave>Yorick: I just patched to the point I can join without errors
15:11<rave>however after game unpaused client connected I'm returned to the main openttd screen with no error!
15:13<Yorick>what server?
15:14<Yorick>sure you disabled desync?
15:15-!-Farden [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:15<Yorick>the network part compiled
15:16<rave>any of the 3/4
15:16-!-HerzogDeXtE1 [] has joined #openttd
15:16<rave>alures etc
15:17<Yorick>did you comment out the desync part?
15:18<Yorick>there would be enough time to get one line of chat throu
15:19<Eddi|zuHause3>oh, just forget it...
15:20<Yorick>where was that "hammering cluelessly" quote?
15:20<rave>who said it was possible in the first place?
15:21<Yorick>Eddi|zuHause3 :D
15:22<Yorick>[17:31] <Eddi|zuHause3> <Gonozal_VIII> if it doesn't pause, you will most likely desync right after the join.. <- you can also patch to ignore desync errors
15:22<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, but you have to do it _RIGHT_
15:22<Eddi|zuHause3>and i don't see you get there any time soon...
15:23-!-HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:24-!-rave [] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
15:24<Yorick>one with pause on join disabled
15:24-!-KritiK_ [] has joined #openttd
15:25<Gonozal_VIII>what the guy sais is: 80, 100, 120
15:25<Gonozal_VIII>meaning km/h
15:26<Eddi|zuHause3>this accelerates faster than i can download it :p
15:26<@peter1138>wobbly camera
15:27*hylje wobbles about
15:28<Gonozal_VIII>top speed is 357 :-)
15:28<@peter1138>over here, they'd ban it
15:28<hylje>there are a load of taurus acceleration videos
15:28<Gonozal_VIII>because it's good at accelerating^^
15:28<Gonozal_VIII>and has a nice sound
15:29<Maedhros>there's no way to signal it, for a start
15:29<Gonozal_VIII>they don't go that fast
15:29<Gonozal_VIII>but they can
15:29<hylje>i think the helsinki metro noise (sound?) is great
15:29<Gonozal_VIII>without modifying the engine
15:30<Gonozal_VIII>they can go both very fast and slow with a lot of cargo :-)
15:31<Gonozal_VIII>bestestest train engine!
15:31-!-KritiK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:32<Yorick>it returns to main right after loading :(
15:32<Gonozal_VIII>just use irc
15:33<Yorick>rave: I know what it has to do with it
15:34<Yorick>its in bool SafeSaveOrLoad
15:34*Yorick removes backtomainmenu switch
15:35<Gonozal_VIII>you've been messing with that for hours.... write something that connects the ingame chat to an irc channel instead
15:35<Yorick>same problem
15:35<Yorick>I'l first have to connect to server without having grfs
15:36<Gonozal_VIII>in the code of the server itself
15:36<@Belugas>and the received map will be soooooo... messed up...
15:36<Yorick>would be doable
15:36<Yorick>but I like hammering cluelessly
15:37*Maedhros wonders whether embedding some sort of irc server in openttd would be a good idea
15:37<@peter1138>probably not :)
15:37<Maedhros>yeah, that was my feeling too :)
15:38<@peter1138>irc client has been done, irrc
15:38<Gonozal_VIII>client should be enough
15:38<Eddi|zuHause3>man, electric engines are almost impossible to get old...
15:39<Eddi|zuHause3>i have like the 4th generation of engines before the first one got old
15:39<Gonozal_VIII>sends all messages from the ingame chat there and attaches the username in front, so that people in irc will see who wrote it...
15:40<Gonozal_VIII>that's why you don't see only one engine type around in rl, they don't replace everything every time a new one comes out
15:41<Gonozal_VIII>resell value decreases linear ingame... it doesn't do that in rl
15:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11910 /trunk/src/ (6 files):
15:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: play 'ding-ding' crossing sound in more cases (except gameload and crossing construction)
15:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: crossing sound is bound to tile, not to vehicle
15:42<Gonozal_VIII>ding ding fix^^
15:43<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm currently trying to get rid of steam engines
15:43<Eddi|zuHause3>and suddenly found an old isolated network of electric trains
15:43<Eddi|zuHause3>but i think i'm keeping my BR 05 for a little while
15:44<Yorick>not more ding-ding
15:45<Maedhros>well, there's your motivation for getting involved in the sound replacement project - less annoying level crossings ;)
15:45<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, taht
15:45-!-michi_cc [] has joined #openttd
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15:45<Eddi|zuHause3>that's mutch more useful than server-join hacks :p
15:46<@peter1138>"suddenly found" implies you had lost a whole network somewhere...
15:46<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, kinda ;)
15:47<Eddi|zuHause3>i started this game like half a year ago
15:50<bean_xp>I just got interested in doing some coding for openttd
15:50<Yorick>you too?
15:50<Yorick>seems to be an epedemic
15:50<bean_xp>not got a clue where to start thoug
15:50<Eddi|zuHause3>i knew of the other isolated network because the BR 92 got old
15:50<bean_xp>I got the source downloaded, compiled etc
15:50<Yorick>start with making a network join hack :P
15:51<Eddi|zuHause3>but those E 52 have still a lot of years to come...
15:51<bean_xp>say what now
15:51<Yorick>start learning C++
15:51<bean_xp>I know c++
15:51<Eddi|zuHause3>bean_xp: shunting ;)
15:51<Yorick>start making patches
15:51<bean_xp>patches for what though
15:52<Eddi|zuHause3>i just told ;)
15:52<bean_xp>Well I had some ideas for a GUI re-design, but then I saw there was already a trunk re-coding that
15:52<Rubidium>bean_xp: look at the bugs at and start with the bugs with the lowest index ;)
15:52-!-lekro [] has joined #openttd
15:53<bean_xp>I have been doing that
15:53<Noldo>bean_xp: if you are interested in pathfinding there is a biggish outstanding issue of ship pathfinding taking to much processing power
15:53-!-rave [] has joined #openttd
15:53<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: i don't think i have actually seen a "real" BR 182 around anywhere
15:54<bean_xp>I think I'm more GUI/Game logic coder but I shall take a look
15:54<bean_xp>at ship pathfinding that is
15:54<Eddi|zuHause3>really, if you want game logic, do shunting
15:54<@peter1138>minor clean up, not really a redesign, heh
15:55<bean_xp>Explanation of shuntung?
15:55<Eddi|zuHause3>bean_xp: splitting wagons from engines and reassembling new trains at stations
15:56<bean_xp>So what would that achieve?
15:56<bean_xp>realistic turning?
15:56<hylje>flexibility, realism
15:57<Yorick>my patch just got better :)
15:57<Yorick>openttd now just crashes
15:57<Yorick>but g2g
15:57<Eddi|zuHause3>realistic turning, switching between electric and diesel, assembling big cargo trains from smaller "delivery" trains
15:57-!-bilbo [] has joined #openttd
15:57-!-Yorick [] has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> <-]
15:57<Eddi|zuHause3>splitting cargo trains for multiple destinations
15:58<bilbo>I updated my large map patch to revision 11910 ....
15:58<bilbo>I put the updated version to fs#1059
15:59<bean_xp>Ok so give me an example of what you would expect to happen? I imagine you're thinking of for turning: Train gets to station, engine detatches and leaves other end of station, turns on turntable or corner track, joins track infront of the station, then reverses to the front of the wagon?
15:59<bilbo>due to some changes in trunk it got slightly simpler, especially due to those dynamic dropdowns
16:00<Eddi|zuHause3>bean_xp: yeah, that is one scenario
16:00<Eddi|zuHause3>bean_xp: some engines might not need turning, though
16:00<Eddi|zuHause3>and some trains may be built for push-pull service
16:01<bean_xp>Might also think to combine the proceedure with servicing
16:02<bean_xp>That would be quite a complicated aspect to begin work on though?
16:03<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, but it easily gets more complicated than that ;)
16:03<bean_xp>of course
16:04<bean_xp>Is there any need for train fuelling system, or has it already been implemented?
16:04<Eddi|zuHause3>like for switching traction types, you have to synchronise the orders of two engines, like the electric one says "leave wagons at this station, pick up next wagon set that needs electric traction", and the diesel engine reverse that
16:04<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause3, you're hard on him ;)
16:05<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i _could_ have suggested PBS instead, but that is beeing tackled by several other people right now, that would not be fun ;)
16:05<hylje>shunting would be awesome
16:06<Eddi|zuHause3>bean_xp: but honestly, you should start with smaller steps, especially to get to know the code
16:06<bean_xp>I know
16:06<Eddi|zuHause3>like, you could have the engines magically disappear, and reappear at the other end, without turning the wagons around
16:07<hylje>(a phasing animation is a plus)
16:07<Eddi|zuHause3>phasing animation in 8bpp, good luck with that one :p
16:08<hylje>can be done
16:08<bean_xp>'Dissolve' style fading...
16:08<hylje>but not quite alpha-blended
16:08<bilbo>train (and planes and rv's an ships) fueling system was suggested already in forums
16:08<hylje>i think a fuel thingy kinda violates the axioms
16:09<hylje>e.g. where does the fuel/electicity come from?
16:09<bean_xp>fueling stations/stations
16:09<hylje>does one need to produce and deliver that to service points?
16:09<bilbo>trains with oil tankers can include some minirefinery in one wagon and make fuel for themselves :)
16:09<hylje>now its just assumed its done in the background
16:10<bilbo>or if you have wagon with electric generator too, you can let electric engines on non-electrified track :)
16:10<Eddi|zuHause3>sure :p
16:10<UnderBuilder>I think the city simulator proyect should be an external game that connects to openttd servers
16:10<@peter1138><Eddi|zuHause3> like, you could have the engines magically disappear, and reappear at the other end, without turning the wagons around
16:10<@peter1138>we call them tunnels :D
16:10<bean_xp>Well I was thinking, each engine has a fuel level, if it can't reach the station, it goes to the nearest fuelling station. Refuels at each station and you pay for it
16:10<UnderBuilder>I am refering to the city management suggestion
16:11<hylje>maybe that was worded a bit ambiguously
16:11<@peter1138>(you didn't specify other end "of the train")
16:11<Eddi|zuHause3>actually, some german wagons carried electric generators at their wheels
16:11<bilbo>bean_xp ... what if fuel runs out in middle fo the track?
16:11<rave>driver gets out and walks to depot
16:11<hylje>i think you should *first* make a proper maintenance system
16:11<bean_xp>Emergency fuel train
16:12<hylje>e.g. trains run nearly flawlessly when properly serviced
16:12<Eddi|zuHause3>but those were usually used to power the electric heating ;)
16:12<hylje>depots arent magical holes in the landscape, eating arbitrary-length trains
16:12<hylje>and then add fuel and whatnot to that
16:12<bilbo>well, if yoy rebuild the track in middle of full traffic, some train may end up not being able to make it to nearest station or refueling depot
16:12<Eddi|zuHause3>i think these are 3 completely different projects you are talking about
16:13<bilbo>hylje: in openttd they are :)
16:13<hylje>bilbo: at the moment
16:13<bean_xp>Also, are any of these features wanted by players, or is it just unecessary complication
16:13<rave>is a goal of openttd to remain the same as ttd in some ways?
16:14<hylje>i'd see it as a "Use new maintenance system" option
16:14<hylje>rave: mostly so, but options can break that just fine
16:14<bean_xp>What are you meaning by new maintainance?
16:15<hylje>new depots, fuel, that kind of stuff
16:15<bean_xp>I thought you meant like a train wash or something :D
16:15<rave>is it considered part of the game that train crossings are highly dangerous to vehicles?
16:16<@peter1138>crossings aren't
16:16<@peter1138>trains are :D
16:16<Eddi|zuHause3>i think fuel runs should not count actual track length, that'd be too complicated, it should limit the distance between stations in the order list of the engine, though
16:16<hylje>because i dont think it'd be very practical to require extensive depoting (due to fuel) without an efficient depot system
16:16<Eddi|zuHause3>and engine refill is usually not done at stations
16:16-!-Greyscale is now known as Greysc[a]le
16:16<hylje>new depots? think stations, just used to maintain the trains
16:17<Eddi|zuHause3>not at depots
16:17<hylje>that could work, too
16:17<hylje>for long trips would one have intermediate stations?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, trains would need to stop at intermediate stations
16:18<Eddi|zuHause3>possibly switching engines there
16:18<bean_xp>As they do or did in real life
16:18<rave>peter1138: what about vehicles having a remote chance of derailing trains?
16:18<hylje>where shunting comes in
16:18<hylje>rave: i'd have that only with a more fine-grained track/vehicle state
16:18<Eddi|zuHause3>rave: i think there has been an option (or patch?) that made trains break down when hitting a car
16:18<hylje>rave: so the player can prevent 99.99% of disaster by doing it right
16:20<UnderBuilder>what do you think? openttd for those who want a transportation game, a city builder for the ones that want build cities, farms for the workers... and they playing in the same server
16:20<rave>I think train owners should be encouraged to build bridges in the way vehicle users have to
16:20<hylje>UnderBuilder: that's a great goal.
16:20<bilbo>crossings of death? :)
16:20<hylje>UnderBuilder: and very awesome at that. however, it needs a lot of design and a lot of development
16:21<bilbo>eddi: won't dop much to deter vehicle crashers
16:21<bean_xp>Also how would being a worker be fun?
16:21<hylje>bean_xp: micromanagement! profit!!
16:21<UnderBuilder>making the farm grow...
16:21<rave>bean_xp: xp? levling? rofl
16:21<UnderBuilder>can be applied to other industries
16:22<bean_xp>Ok but on that note you might aswel have delivery people too
16:22<UnderBuilder>I mean building the industry and mantaining it
16:22<hylje>delivery people are the transport tycoons
16:22<bean_xp>What if someone decided to stop supplying you?
16:23<bean_xp>I mean drivers, bus drivers, train etc
16:23<hylje>that someone just lost great profit
16:23<bean_xp>I think it would be a bit much for one game
16:23<hylje>at a glance, yes
16:24<hylje>but i believe a proper design can overcome that
16:24<bean_xp>Already a lot of variables for players to think about, with that level it would have a whole new level of complexity
16:24<hylje>because the overall idea is to manage, to make profit
16:24<hylje>it can extend to other business than just transport
16:25<hylje>its not much more complexity, as its simply buying and selling
16:25<hylje>the train operator knows jack about the industries' internals
16:25-!-De_Ghost [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:25<hylje>he cares just about the cargo delivery
16:25<bean_xp>Well it is, because you have to consider more to make decisions, like will this industry manager play better than the other one, and should I work with him
16:26<hylje>industries change rather unpredictably at the moment. what's the difference?
16:26<bean_xp>Well you can make basic statistical assumptions
16:26<bean_xp>They are producing more, so I'll make more money, so on
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16:27<bean_xp>But it's not going to be like, if that player leaves and his company goes into disrepair, what do I do?
16:28<hylje>the basic problem of interdependency
16:28<hylje>which i believe can be dealt with
16:29<bean_xp>I think to make that you would need to start a whole new project, simply basing the transport on ttd, because it would become more of an economy simulator
16:29<hylje>ottd is an economy simulator, just from the POV of a transport tycoon
16:30<bean_xp>yes, but not from the point of view of the coal mine managers
16:30<bean_xp>you'd need all sorts of things like marketing, product development and so on
16:30<hylje>in no way mutually exclusive
16:31<bean_xp>because in ttd the only competition is for transport
16:31<bean_xp>whereas in rl-economy-sim you'd need to have competition between similar companies
16:31<Tefad>or the coal can be made too expensive to drive demand down and keep stockpiles high. in the long run this gives more profits (kind of how global oil economy works today)
16:32<hylje>sure, but then someone comes and founds a new coal mine
16:32<hylje>instant profit
16:32<Tefad>right, but it won't last as long
16:32<Tefad>and the competitors (with their huge profits stored up) can temporarily drop price to peanuts.
16:33<@Belugas>[16:34] <hylje> ottd is an economy simulator, just from the POV of a transport tycoon <---- no it's not. It's a transport game
16:33<Tefad>put other company out of business in a hurry
16:33<Tefad>how do you think MS got rid of netscape? ; )
16:33<bean_xp>I'm not saying it's a bad idea, however I'm not sure it would be fun. It would be interesting to see though, as it would probarbly have many uses outside of a game
16:34<hylje>it all depends on how its laid out
16:34<bean_xp>and the freedom of the players
16:35<bean_xp>as in, you don't want to get bound by contracts
16:35<hylje>how that is an "and"?
16:35<hylje>it is included in the layout, the design
16:35<Eddi|zuHause3><Tefad> how do you think MS got rid of netscape? ; ) <- MS did not get rid of Netscape
16:35<hylje>we got 'zilla
16:35<Eddi|zuHause3>AOL bought Netscape and then got rid of it itself
16:35<Eddi|zuHause3>the Netscape developers then started Mozilla
16:36<bean_xp> <-- what's that?
16:36<Tefad>netscape has <1% market share.
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16:36<Tefad>it's dead.
16:36<bean_xp>thats what they said about nintendo
16:36<Eddi|zuHause3>Tefad: yes, but not because of MS
16:36<Tefad>aol realizes this and canned it.
16:36<Tefad>ok how about this: how do you think MS won the first browser war?
16:36<Tefad>is that more exact?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>AOL did that a long time ago
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>and as Firefox shows, it clearly bet on the wrong horse back then
16:37<Tefad>no AOL just officially declared discontinued support starting Feb 1 this year.
16:37-!-Belugas_Gone [~belugas@] has quit []
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>after they fired the whole development team like 5 years ago
16:38-!-Guest3406 [belugas@] has joined #openttd
16:38<Tefad>same thing happened with nullsoft ; )
16:38<Tefad>except i think justin pushed quite a bit to have that happen : x
16:39<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't know anything about nullsoft
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16:40<Tefad>i do believe microsoft's business practices lead to the decrease in popularity of the netscape browser during the first browser war
16:40<Phoenix_the_II>hmmm, im new to openttd, is there a site for scenarios? :)
16:40<Tefad>and that this contributed to the overall demise of netscape
16:40-!-Belugas_Gone [~belugas@] has quit []
16:40<bean_xp>Phoenic_the_II -> there are a few on the wiki
16:41<Phoenix_the_II>yea, saw these
16:41<Eddi|zuHause3>Phoenix_the_II: you may also find some in the forums
16:41<Phoenix_the_II>but, there's only a few :p
16:41<Eddi|zuHause3>also, you probably find a lot of heightmaps
16:41<Phoenix_the_II>Is it that people only play random games?
16:41<Phoenix_the_II>hmm, heightmaps?
16:41<bean_xp>Some people make their own
16:41<hylje>mostly random maps
16:41<Phoenix_the_II>that's new to openttd? :p
16:42<Tefad>where's truelight?
16:42<bean_xp>I have one I multiplayer with some friends
16:42<Eddi|zuHause3>heightmaps are pictures of real maps, they can be turned into (empty) ottd maps
16:42<Tefad>empty.. barren : )
16:42<bean_xp>B&W images representing elevation
16:43-!-Belugas [~belugas@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:43<hylje>also, you can get your scenarios to the ottd distribution
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16:43<bean_xp>Is there a notice for that?
16:43<bean_xp>There doesn't seem to be many bundled?
16:44<Tefad>the colors don't really matter.. you should have an image that fits the map size you want, and that it has a 16 element palette. the sequence of the palette is more important than the colors.
16:44<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, but if you don't have a palette, brightness is used
16:44<Tefad>if you do have a b&w image, you probably want to convert it yourself for best results. i tend to tweak the gamma a bit so hills pop out
16:45<Tefad>i like being in direct control of the contour lines, but that's just me i guess
16:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11911 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: use enum for autoreplace window widgets
16:47<bean_xp>So have most of the openttd devs been there since the start? Or did people pickup somwhere along the line, and where?
16:53-!-tneo [] has left #openttd []
16:56<rave>third time lucky svn doesn't tell me there's a diff straight after checkout
16:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11912 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace_gui.cpp rail_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: use dropdown widget for autoreplace, station builder and (second?) vehicle list windows
16:58<Sacro>yes ;p
16:58<Andel>pull my finger... huh huh huh
16:58*Andel poops on Sacro
16:58<rave>define "poops"
16:58<Prof_Frink>rave: Defecates.
16:58-!-Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
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16:59*Andel is not gay, Sacro
16:59*Andel wanks over peter1138
16:59<Andel>feels *so* good
16:59<Prof_Frink>Andel, You're turning into a robot. Stop it.
16:59*Andel goes to shag patchbot
17:00<@peter1138>!seen patchbot
17:00<@Bjarni>@seen patchbot
17:00<@DorpsGek>Bjarni: I have not seen patchbot.
17:00<Prof_Frink>!seen openbot
17:00-!-Diabolic1Angel [] has joined #openttd
17:00<@Bjarni>Andel: you have a serious problem
17:01<Andel>I know, I know
17:01<@Bjarni>not only do you want to have sex with an IRC bot
17:01<Andel>I'm getting some counselling
17:01<@Bjarni>you want to have sex with an IRC bot that you imagine that's not even real
17:01<Andel>Bjarni: gotta do something before I get married
17:01<Andel>not allowed to have a stripper
17:01<dih>a male stripper ^^
17:02<@peter1138>paint stripper?
17:02<Prof_Frink>Andel: Not even a hot air paint damn you peter1138
17:02<@Bjarni>dih: the guy who puts hell into hello o_O
17:02<Prof_Frink>Look, my arms and fingers are tired
17:02<Prof_Frink>And I'm eating
17:02<@peter1138>that's good because eating would slow you down
17:03<dih>Bjarni: the guy who adds an o to hell
17:03<Prof_Frink>hello was invented as a greeting when answering the telephone.
17:04<@Bjarni>and it gave name to the hello girls
17:04<@Bjarni>it was too long to say "good afternoon" each time
17:04<@Bjarni>or whatever time it was
17:04<Andel>and a shitty magazine
17:04<Prof_Frink>The alternative suggestion is still used by C. Montgomery Burns.
17:04<@Bjarni>besides they forgot what the time was outside when they were busy
17:04<Andel>hoi hoi
17:04<Gonozal_VIII>oh noes, there's a bjarni and i didn't say "bjarni!"
17:04<@peter1138># hello... is it me you're looking for?
17:05<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: blame it on lag
17:05<@Bjarni>and switch ISP
17:05<bean_xp>Well I'm gonna dash, perhaps I'll be back another time
17:05<@Bjarni>don't you know anything about being online?
17:05*Bjarni stabs bean
17:05<@Bjarni>I wonder how many xp he is worth
17:06<bean_xp>More than you can imagine
17:06*Bjarni kills bean
17:06*peter1138 is gonna metro-cammell
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>kill him until he's dead!
17:06<bean_xp>Infact, so much that my hp is far greater than that which could be dealt by a mere stab wound
17:06*Bjarni beheads bean
17:06<@Bjarni>that's why I just took your head
17:07<@Bjarni>that's a critical injury that results in instant death
17:07<bean_xp>How many bean's do you know with a head seriously
17:07<@Bjarni>good point
17:07*Bjarni cuts the shell off bean
17:07-!-Diabolic-Angel [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07<@Bjarni>or whatever it's called in English
17:08<bean_xp>nice one :P
17:08<bean_xp>cya anyway
17:08-!-bean_xp [~bean_xp@] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> <- Now with extra fish!]
17:09<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: that's his head after I took it away from his body
17:09<Gonozal_VIII>didn't stop him...
17:09<@Bjarni>which means...
17:09*Bjarni goes to look for a necromancer
17:10<Gonozal_VIII>you have to use healing spells to kill him :-)
17:10<@peter1138>not to be confused with a necrophiliac
17:11<@Bjarni>ok that rules out Andel
17:11-!-Shark [] has joined #openttd
17:11<Gonozal_VIII>no, that's what the non pedophile catholic priests are
17:11<Andel>gonna go play a proper game
17:11<Andel>Locomotion here I come!
17:12<Gonozal_VIII>@kick andel
17:12<Andel>laters folks
17:12<Shark>hi, is possible to load the old saved games from transport tycoon in openttd?
17:13<Maedhros>it should be, yes
17:13<Gonozal_VIII>from tto? i guess not... at least not directly
17:13<Gonozal_VIII>but it's possible... try it :-)
17:13<Maedhros>i was assuming Shark was talking about ttd...
17:14<@Bjarni>I don't think that will work
17:14<Shark>i've tried but it crash:(
17:14<@Bjarni>Maedhros: don't act on what you assume
17:14<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know if you can load tto games with ttd...
17:14<@Bjarni>or your code will end up like MS code
17:14<Shark>T* OldMemoryPool<T>::Get(uint) const [with T = Town]: Assertion `index < this->GetSize()' failed.
17:14<Shark>with this error
17:14<Maedhros>interesting... which version of openttd are you using?
17:15<Shark>0.6 beta3
17:15<Shark>via a gentoo's ebuild
17:15<+glx>new game or loaded game from previous version?
17:16<Gonozal_VIII>there's nothing previous for tto^^
17:16<Shark>an old game from tt under dosbox
17:17*glx should read before typing ;)
17:17<@peter1138>you can load TTD games
17:17<@peter1138>but not TT
17:17<Shark>ok, only from deluxe than
17:17<Gonozal_VIII>you could try if ttd loads it :-)
17:17<Phoenix_the_II>wow 2048x2048 are monstrous O_o
17:18<Phoenix_the_II>really something else compared to ttdx
17:18<bilbo>wait for 8192x8192 :)
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>yes 2048^2 is huge... too big for my taste
17:18<Phoenix_the_II>i like it
17:18<Shark>mmm and than open the new savegame with ttd?
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>i always want to connect everything... that's just impossible there
17:18<Shark>a kind of format conversion?:)
17:19<Phoenix_the_II>i always liked that Power Mad, cold scenario :P
17:19<Phoenix_the_II>if i remember welll
17:19<bilbo>if my pacb will make it to the trunk you could have like 8192x512 ...
17:19<Gonozal_VIII>it's worth a try^^
17:19<bilbo>my patch ...
17:19<Phoenix_the_II>the west of the map had coal mines, and towns only had power stations
17:19<bilbo>or 4096x1024
17:20<Prof_Frink>or 65536x32
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>64 is min
17:20<bilbo>x32 wont work, minimum is 64
17:20<bilbo>though my patch with modified limits allows 1 million x 64 :)
17:21-!-De_Ghosty [] has joined #openttd
17:21<bilbo>basically mosat you can get with 32bit architectures.
17:21<Gonozal_VIII>it would take forever just to scroll from one side to the other^^
17:22<bilbo>any larger sizes would require either weird things like PAE, /3gb/1gb user/kernel split or 64bit archiotecture
17:22<Gonozal_VIII>[23:21:31] bilbo: basically mosat you can get with 32bit architectures. <-- 2d array^^
17:22<bilbo>gonozal ... when I player 262000x64 map it took very long. but there is console command for jumping to specified tile
17:23<bilbo>so you open console then jumpt to any coordinate you want :)
17:23<Gonozal_VIII>oh, nice
17:23<Gonozal_VIII>would be nice to zoom the minimap there..
17:24<Gonozal_VIII>it's not mini enough for huge maps
17:24<bilbo>once you have 64bit architecture, another theoretical limit would be 2^31 tiles ....
17:24<bilbo>gonozal: there is minimap-zoom patch
17:24<bilbo>I think one version amost made it o trunk
17:25<bilbo>2^31 tiles would mean like 65536 x 32768 ... if you have 40 gb of ram :)
17:25<bilbo>or 33554432 x 64 :)
17:25-!-Desolator [Desolator@] has joined #openttd
17:26<De_Ghosty>40 gig of ram
17:26<Desolator>anyone with experince in win32 api registry functions?
17:26<Gonozal_VIII>more zoom out levels would also be nice... where it doesn't render anything, just displays water tiles blue, land tiles green, no matter what's on there...
17:26<bilbo>well, in few years people will have 40 gb of ram as standard :)
17:26<De_Ghosty>hundres years?
17:26<De_Ghosty>or few tens of years
17:27<rave>10 years at most
17:27<Desolator>"256K of RAM should be enough for everyone." -- Bill Gates
17:27<bilbo>not 256 but 640
17:27<Gonozal_VIII>i guess that will be optical then, not magnetic
17:27<bilbo>I guess sooner than 10 years
17:27<rave>640 k should be enough for everyone..." Bill Gates, 1984
17:28<Desolator>now we
17:28<bilbo>he probably meant gigabytes :)
17:28<Desolator>we're dreaming of 10 gigs
17:28<bilbo>or terabytes, if he was talking about disk space
17:28<Gonozal_VIII>8 gigs are already possible in lots of pcs
17:29<rave>Bill Gates: "I never said '640K should be enough for anybody!'"
17:29<Desolator>120 gigs are already possible in most 64-bit arhitectures
17:29<Gonozal_VIII>not in a pc, you don't have the space for that
17:29<Desolator>did I say PC? :P
17:29<Gonozal_VIII>i did :P
17:30<Desolator>I said that it's possible, but not practical at all
17:30<Desolator>how on Earch are you gonna use that much these days?
17:30<rave>is there a system in place for users to submit their ttd patches?
17:30<Desolator>how do you patch TTD? :P
17:31<Desolator>yes, flyspray
17:31<Gonozal_VIII>you could cache a lot more... and waste more memory in favour of speed
17:31<Prof_Frink>rave: annoy the devs on IRC
17:31<@peter1138>Desolator, ttdpatch, obviously...
17:31<bilbo>if not in pc's qhy only 120 gigs?
17:31<Desolator>peter1138: he said ottd later :P
17:31<bilbo>many supercomputers have mor ram than that
17:31<Desolator>is DarkVater still around?
17:32<@peter1138>@seen darkvater
17:32<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I have not seen darkvater.
17:32<Desolator>(or whatever his username is)
17:32<Gonozal_VIII>but that's not used by the same cpu
17:32<Desolator>... :(
17:32-!-Greysc[a]le is now known as Greyscale
17:33<Desolator>damn those away nicks...
17:33<Desolator>any capable client can make the nick grey to tell you "this dude is away"
17:33<Gonozal_VIII>most people are away, nobody cares :P
17:34-!-divo [] has quit [Quit: Quitting]
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17:35<Desolator>changed the keyboard layout by mistake
17:35<Gonozal_VIII>changed keyboard layout by accident?
17:35<Desolator>beat ya :P
17:35<Gonozal_VIII>happens to me sometimes
17:35<Gonozal_VIII>alt shift
17:36<Desolator>ctrl + shift here...but whatever
17:36<Desolator>I think I'll rewrite BOTTD in C++
17:36<Desolator>the .NET requirement is pathetic
17:36-!-Maedhros [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:36<Gonozal_VIII>build openttd
17:37<Gonozal_VIII>compiling thingy :-)
17:37<Desolator>(this could lead to unix support as well, using raw gcc)
17:37<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't get it to work... but i also didn't try very hard
17:37<+glx>Desolator: *nix users know how to use make
17:38<Prof_Frink>Yeah, what's wrong with ~/src/openttd/ ?
17:38<+glx>the main advantadge of bottd is that it installs msys and mingw in a way it just works
17:38-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:39<Gonozal_VIII>it's supposed to install that?
17:39<Desolator>well I don't think it'd be to hard to support *nix as I'd use wxwidgets for GUI, so what's left?
17:39<bilbo>best is to have all layouts qwerty :)
17:39<Gonozal_VIII>qwertz indeed
17:40<Gonozal_VIII>nah, y is the least frequent letter in german, no use of having that in the middle
17:40<Desolator>but still
17:40<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: yes, builfottd is designed to skip all the "how to install this compiler correctly" stuff
17:40*Desolator downloads the BOOTD source and will dig in it later
17:40<Eddi|zuHause3>there's nothing wrong with qwertz
17:40<bilbo>well, still better than nmany typos (tzpos :) if you use german layout with english texts, etc ...
17:41<bilbo>nothing wrong, but also nothing good :)
17:41<Gonozal_VIII>why would i mistype that? i know where my y is^^
17:41<Eddi|zuHause3>actually, i have real problems with qwerty layouts, because + is only accessible with shift
17:42<Desolator>why the heck did kaan make an installer for the source O_o
17:42<Desolator>oh, it's a SFX 7-zip
17:44<Gonozal_VIII>ah, i remember what went wrong... the .net framework stuff install didn't work
17:44-!-bilbo [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:45<Gonozal_VIII>some weird error and stopped
17:45-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:46<Desolator>'night as well
17:46-!-Desolator [Desolator@] has quit []
17:46<Eddi|zuHause3>the most weird thing with qwertz layout is to type "kezb gr" with the DOS bootdisk ;)
17:46-!-Deathmaker [] has joined #openttd
17:47<Gonozal_VIII>and to find things like : and \
17:47<Eddi|zuHause3>Ö and #
17:48<Eddi|zuHause3>bigger problem is stuff like *
17:49<rave>"Passengers in the game don't seem to know or care where they are going"
17:49<Prof_Frink>rave: That's not true
17:49<Prof_Frink>The passengers know where they want to go
17:49<Gonozal_VIII>not with passenger destinations..
17:50<rave>where do they want to go?
17:50<Gonozal_VIII>stockpiling houses would also be a possible solution for that :-)
17:50<Prof_Frink>But as the game is deigned on the British transport system, this has no effect on where they end up.
17:50<rave>I see
17:51<Gonozal_VIII>strange... .net framework install thingy now worked
17:52<Gonozal_VIII>same bytenumber in the exe, same date... other exe didn't work
17:52<rave>I can't believe .net caught on
17:53<rave>should have been a boycott
17:54<Phoenix_the_II>anyone has a left mouse auto clicker so i can expand this darn city without getting RSI? :p
17:54-!-Shark [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:55<Gonozal_VIII>build roads for it, the expand button works a lot faster if the city has roads to follow
17:57-!-murr4y is now known as murray
17:57<Gonozal_VIII>yay compile failed
17:59<rave>what's the upload site with a url something like
17:59<rave>haha, I just noticed ImagesHack.Us
18:01-!-Poelmo [] has quit [Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: )]
18:02<rave>Phoenix_the_II: check this out
18:02<Gonozal_VIII>weeeell.. it just writes The file 'C:\BuildOTTD\logs\config.log' already exists. and exits
18:02<Phoenix_the_II>im doing this with just 1 city hahah
18:02<Phoenix_the_II>mustve clicked like 3000 times now
18:02<Phoenix_the_II>getting painly
18:02<Eddi|zuHause3>that is a very small map
18:04<Eddi|zuHause3>i mean, it completely fits on my screen
18:04<Eddi|zuHause3>well, almost
18:04<@Bjarni>rave: you are cruel to those people
18:04<@Bjarni>you didn't give them room to expand on
18:04<@Bjarni>now what are they going to do with their children?
18:05<@Bjarni>throw them into the water?
18:06<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm can't find any error log for buildottd
18:08<Gonozal_VIII>"compile failed" is not very informative
18:09<rave>Bjarni: take a closer look, the poplulation has been abducted by aliens
18:09-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:10<@Bjarni>organic material harvest
18:10<@Bjarni>the same as the farms do
18:10<@Bjarni>nothing special there
18:13-!-XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: May the ducttape be with you]
18:13-!-Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: zzz]
18:13<Gonozal_VIII>no way to find out what goes wrong with buildottd?
18:16-!-Eddi|zuHause3 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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18:19<rave>debug it
18:19-!-Purno [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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18:20<Eddi|zuHause>that was weird...
18:21<rave>the server told you it had quit you due to a ping timeout?
18:21-!-Deathmaker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>more like i have quit due to the main circuit breaker...
18:22<rave>I just experienced a moment of terror before I remembered I had relocated my ttd mod
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>i have that occasionally, too ;)
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>rave: when the server tells that i "ping timeout"-ed, i am already gone for 8 minutes
18:33<+glx>Ping timeout: 480 seconds
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18:57<rave>my connect without newgrfs patch works now :P
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19:13<Ammler>rave: how is the invisible clima?
19:14*fjb assumes it pretty dark. :-)
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20:03<rave>some of these asserts are ridiculous
20:03*Belugas slaps rave
20:03<@Belugas>not knowing why != ridiculous
20:04-!-KritiK_ [] has joined #openttd
20:04-!-KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
20:05<rave>bool IsOwnedLand(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_UNMOVABLE)'
20:06<+glx>you need to check tile type before calling the function
20:06<Rubidium>or use IsOwnedLandTile
20:06<rave>I know, but why?
20:06<rave>oh sorry
20:06<Rubidium>because most of the places where we want to know whether it is an owned land tile we already know it's an unmovable tile
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>rave: because it makes the function easier in places where it is already known that the tile is unmovable, then it doesn't need to be checked again
20:06<Rubidium>so rechecking that would be a waste of resources
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>of course this ressource criterium only holds when asserts are disabled ;)
20:09<Rubidium>although asserts are probably cheaper than adding it to the if (in case we already know it's such a tile)
20:10*Belugas takes note of not using AnhkVSN for updating his repo
20:11-!-mcbane_ZZzzz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:13<blathijs>Hmm, I think I forgot to build deps of the latest beta..
20:14-!-ben_goodger [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
20:14<Rubidium>aren't deps done automatically?
20:16<fjb>Hm, some people are starnge...
20:18<@Belugas>very snartge
20:18<blathijs>Rubidium: Nope, I'll at least have to let something know there is a new version and upload it
20:18<blathijs>Rubidium: Still, I don't want the betas in Debian, so I'll have to build the deps for on sf myself
20:18<blathijs>semi-automated of course
20:19<fjb>Belugas: I don't understand why some people are fighting to add another switch when the same thing is possible by just adding another grf...
20:19<@Belugas>talking avout the closure of industry?
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: so, did you provide them a grf?
20:21<fjb>No, but I even don't provide that switch. :-P
20:21<@Belugas>to be honest, fjb, i do understand their point
20:21<@Belugas>but ...
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>but, such a grf would probably need updating with each newindustry grf
20:21<@Belugas>it is not to say i'm embracing the cause
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>but a switch should be rather trivial to add...
20:22<@Belugas>not so, Eddi|zuHause
20:22<fjb>I have often seen people complain that TTD is too hard to play... Strange people...
20:22<@Belugas>it has repercussions
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>and, they could just use the production cheat ;)
20:23<@Belugas>cheat over cheat
20:24-!-roboboy [] has joined #openttd
20:24<fjb>Next strange thing is that I indeed provided something. A patched executable. It got downloaded 21 times since last night and I bet almost nobody could use it. And I still got no complain...
20:25<fjb>I don't know how people can fail to get rich in TTD (beside using the passenger destinations patch).
20:29<@Belugas>that is indeed amusing
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>i even got rich in the 2 year demo ;)
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>where "rich" means get several profitable routes and repay loan
20:30<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause, since you seems to bein favore of a patch, how would you react if i'd told you taht a side effect of that patch would be that your production willnever change?
20:31-!-Eddi|zuHause2 [] has joined #openttd
20:31<Eddi|zuHause2>i actually do not really care about it...
20:32<@Belugas>picked yp the wrong guy o_O
20:32<@Belugas>and do youthink people would complain?
20:32<Eddi|zuHause2>people always complain ;)
20:32<Eddi|zuHause2>you should know that ;)
20:33<fjb>I bet some people would even like that side effect. No need to change the route or a vehicle on it. Then switch of break downs and you never have to care for that route again. How boring...
20:33<+glx>like CARST asking us to raise a limit he didn't reach yet ;)
20:33<fjb>glx: Which topic was that?
20:34<Eddi|zuHause2>but still... the production cheat should already do that, right?
20:35<@Belugas>it is individual to each induistry. not global
20:35<@Belugas>and i do think they want a global solution
20:35<@Belugas>you know, the kind with the less effort...
20:37<fjb>glx: Only airplanes? How boring. Their game parameters are set way too easy if they jhave that many planes at that time.
20:37-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:38<Eddi|zuHause2>15000 airplanes? i can't really imagine how such a map looks like...
20:39<Eddi|zuHause2>i mean i have barely 200 trains after 40 (x4) years
20:39<Rubidium>like something infested I guess
20:41-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:41<fjb>For me TTD gets boring soon if all parameters are set that easy. I'm playing with the passenger destinations patch, UKRS and PBI at the moment.
20:42<@Belugas>CARST should be put in jail... such foolishness...
20:43<fjb>I guess the more foolish the people are the more they are writing in forums.
20:47<@Belugas>yeah...the idea of the empty barrel ;)
20:47<Eddi|zuHause2>i love how he states "we will reach that limit soon" and later he says "we stopped playing for at least one month" :p
20:47<fjb>What's that? It makes most noise?
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20:54<@Belugas>to be honest, tough, that industry closure is bothersome
20:55<@Belugas>i really do not know what to think of it... on one side, it's fun when people appreciate the game, it's band when they complain.. There is always be complains
20:55<@Belugas>it's true that big maps are a problem for that
20:56<@Belugas>but the problem will not get magically removed with a simple patch
20:56<@Belugas>there is implications to all actions
20:56<fjb>I guess the most complains are because George's industries tend to close very quick. The problem does not really exist with PBI. But George is working on it.
20:56<@Belugas>making it a cheat or a patch will not help
20:57<@Belugas>true, and i expect a lot out of it
20:57<Eddi|zuHause2>i guess the ECS industries were designed with 256x256 maps in mind
20:58<Eddi|zuHause2>with maps 64 times bigger, that's always going to cause trouble
20:58<fjb>His industries are in alpha or beta state. And nobody did an industry replacement project as big as that. So everything has to be tried out to get a good balance.
20:59<@Belugas>that is true
20:59<fjb>And there is still PBI.
20:59<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, still, what might have appeared perfectly balanced in TTDP context, can be totally unsuitible for OTTD
21:00<fjb>I'm playing PBI at the moment because ECS changes too fast at the moment.
21:00<@Belugas>pbi works maevelously well
21:00<Eddi|zuHause2>it does not work with Alpine ;)
21:00<DaleStan>Belugas: Have you seen my comments on the map-size variable you were suggesting?
21:00<fjb>But PBI is not that complex as ECS is. Implementing ECS hast to be far more difficult with the complexity.
21:01<Eddi|zuHause2>and the snow covered mountains are just too beautiful
21:01<@Belugas>yes i did, DaleStan
21:01<fjb>DaleStan: I love some of your coments. :-)
21:01<@Belugas>but... i got the feeling that is was not a good idea, DaleStan
21:01<Eddi|zuHause2>especially when they end with "or something"? :p
21:02<@Belugas>DaleStan: do you think i should do it anyway?
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21:03<DaleStan>It's your call, I think. It's really quite easy to add another constant value to Patch. Adding a non-constant value to Open will be more work.
21:04<+glx>map-size is constant once the game is started ;)
21:04<@Belugas>true, and the call is already made on my side. not commited tough
21:04<DaleStan>But not at compile-time, as it is for Patch.
21:05<@Belugas>Patch would not change its value, since map size is fixed
21:05<@Belugas>Open is based on each new map been generated
21:05<@Belugas>so it's a simle value to be provided to the callback,
21:05<@Belugas>which is quite easy
21:06<@Belugas>DaleStan, any suggestion for the best place to install the said variable?
21:06<@Belugas>THAT is your call ;)
21:09<DaleStan>I was thinking "patch-special" variable 13 (The variables read with 0D <target> 00 <var-num> FE FF FF 00 00), since it's a runtime constant, and the var-action-2 global space is more limited.
21:11*Belugas will look at it before going to sleep
21:12<Eddi|zuHause2>sleep... i should be trying that for a change...
21:15<@Belugas>comments in Delphi !+ Comments in C++
21:15<@Belugas>no, i'm not tired AT ALL
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21:16<Eddi|zuHause2>i was wondering once, if you could write programs that are both valid pascal and valid c programs ;)
21:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r11913 /trunk/src/ (disaster_cmd.cpp economy.cpp): -Fix (r11871): update signals after company bankrupt and disaster too
21:17<Eddi|zuHause2>since c blocks would be pascal comments
21:18<@Belugas>i do sometimes write syntaxically in c with delphi keywords
21:18<@Belugas>and vice-versa
21:19<fjb>Just stop using Delphi.
21:19<fjb>And also stop using C.
21:20<fjb>Start using something modern with elegance.
21:21<Eddi|zuHause2>there is nothing wrong with delphi
21:21<fjb>Like there is nothing wrong with Wndows 95? :-)
21:21<@Belugas>indeed not, even more when DElphi is the one bringing bread on the table :P
21:23<Eddi|zuHause2>there is something seriously wrong with windows anything, that is not the point ;)
21:23<fjb>Ok, that is a point. :-)
21:25<fjb>Poor ai is buying planes which are almost useless with the passenger destination patch when you don't have big towns with big local networks.
21:26<Eddi|zuHause2>you are really cruel
21:27<fjb>Me? :-)
21:27<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, for activating AI
21:27<fjb>I'm feeling alone without the ai.
21:27<Eddi|zuHause2>btw. how trunk worthy are these passenger destinations meanwhile?
21:28<fjb>Not really stable yet.
21:28<fjb>It gets better all the time, but it is definitly not ready for trunk.
21:29<fjb>But it is already fun to play with it when you don't mind that it crashes the game sometimes. And I didn't test it in mulptiplayer yet.
21:31<Eddi|zuHause2>i guess i'll wait a little longer then...
21:31<fjb>Depends on what you are expecting. The patch is worth a try.
21:31<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't really want to deal with patches that change savegame format anyway, they are too troublesome to update
21:33<fjb>I don't mind if I can't complete a game. I know that that could happen beforehand. But I have fun to try new thing. The current game is r11834 with passenger destination patch and programmable way points.
21:33<Eddi|zuHause2>that's why i took the saving part out of the daylength patch
21:34<fjb>I also had a build with the passenger destinations patch and the new pbs patch.
21:34<Eddi|zuHause2>i typically play the same game for a very long time
21:35<fjb>That was not really playable but it was fun to watch the trains as long as they didn't have to go to a depot.
21:35<fjb>I have a game that I'm playing for about three month now. But I love to try new things.
21:39<fjb>I hope that the new PBS path becomes good enough to get included into trunk one day.
21:39<@Belugas>so do i
21:40<Eddi|zuHause2>PBS are always a nice thing to have ;)
21:40<fjb>It was fun to watch the trains to overtake each other without awfull backward signalling hacks.
21:41<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm looking forward to having real 2-way-stations
21:42<Eddi|zuHause2>and i'd want to limit the overtaking to those
21:43<Eddi|zuHause2>2-way-sections are the biggest problem with the current signalling
21:44<fjb>2-way-stations are already possible without PBS but the are becoming monsters.
21:44<Eddi|zuHause2>my stations end up as "half-two-way"
21:44<Eddi|zuHause2>meaning each platform can be entered from one side, and exited to two
21:45<Eddi|zuHause2>but to have overtaking possibility, you need at least 4 tracks
21:45<fjb>Half-two-way can be a problem because the pathfinder chooses the next free platform, even if it can't reach it's next destination from that platform.
21:45<Eddi|zuHause2>which is unrealistic
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21:46<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, i said exit is possible in all directions
21:46<fjb>I think you could build an overtaking possibility with 2 tracks.
21:46<Eddi|zuHause2>not without major locking risk
21:47<fjb>I may start experimenting with such a design.
21:48<fjb>I didn't think out all locking possibilities of my design yet. You may be right. I don't know yet.
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21:54<fjb>What do you think about this? (Overtaking point)
21:55<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: I know your nice looking station designs. :-)
21:55<Eddi|zuHause2>i have more ;)
21:57<fjb>But what do you think about the overtaking point? I know it looks a bit ugly.
21:57<Eddi|zuHause2>which one?
21:58<Eddi|zuHause2>how is that supposed to work?
21:58<fjb>The one with the label "Overtaking point".
21:59<fjb>It enables the trains to switch tracks without the possibility of a deadlock when 2 trains pass each other.
21:59<fjb>The signals are decoupling the two tracks.
22:00<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, but only if you have a block length longer than the trains, and then it only works if the slower train completely stops (i.e. station) and in that case, the overtaking will only work in one direction
22:01<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't think that is worth the effort
22:01<fjb>Overtaking should work in both directions. And you are right, the block has to be really long.
22:02<Eddi|zuHause2>this is why i want only overtaking in stations, the slower train usually stops there
22:02<fjb>I don't know if it is of any use in a real game. Maybe I will try it.
22:02<fjb>Stations can be far apart on a big map.
22:03<Eddi|zuHause2>but i am really proud of that last station of mine ;)
22:03<fjb>Yes, it looks great.
22:03<Eddi|zuHause2>i have another one somewhere...
22:04<fjb>Wasn't it you who build the line at the border of a beautiful fjord?
22:04<fjb>And when will we habe rivers in OpenTTD? :-)
22:05<Eddi|zuHause2>something like that?
22:05<@Belugas>GimmeMore GimmeMore GimmeMore!!!
22:05<Eddi|zuHause2>,%208.%20Mai%201931.png (pre smooth foundations)
22:05<fjb>Nice, but I had somethingelse in my mind. Or was it Gonozal with that fjord?
22:06<fjb>Ah, the last one.
22:06<Eddi|zuHause2>that is a shot just south of the other one
22:06<fjb>I was thinking about that.
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22:07<Eddi|zuHause2>the best part about that is the Rheingold train next to the river bank ;)
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22:11<Eddi|zuHause2>the road ramp to the station looks great ;)
22:11<fjb>Yes, I like that new industrial stations grf.
22:11<Eddi|zuHause2>i dislike the steel station, though
22:12<fjb>Ok, that is looking not that nice. But I can't play that game further. It will crash soon. that is one of the bugs in the passenger destinations patch.
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22:15<Eddi|zuHause2>,%2021.%20Apr%201955.png (that one is new, i believe)
22:16<Eddi|zuHause2>,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png (my interpretation of a steel station)
22:16<fjb>Is that file broken? I'm not able to view irt.
22:16<Eddi|zuHause2>try again
22:16<fjb>Nice steel station.
22:16<Eddi|zuHause2>might not have completely finished uploading when you tried
22:17<Eddi|zuHause2>although it said 100% here
22:17<fjb>Now it is working.
22:17<fjb>I don't want to live in that town. :-)
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22:18<fjb>I would dislike a train below my house. :-)
22:18<Eddi|zuHause2>err... that is like happening all over the world ;) (subway etc.)
22:19<fjb>But a cargo subway with steam engines? :-)
22:19<fjb>My big town:
22:20<Eddi|zuHause2>that last one has waypoints to resolve the next-destination-issue
22:20<fjb>I see you like to dig tunnels.
22:20<Eddi|zuHause2>not particularly
22:20<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd rather have the junction completely flat
22:20<Eddi|zuHause2>but that is impossible without PBS
22:21<fjb>I see, but waypoints are not always working as expected.
22:21<fjb>That is why I had to try the PBS patch, even if it is not playable.
22:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i think i'm done now
22:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a few more stations, but they mostly resemble the same pattern
22:24<fjb>I never got this station working as i wished. The pathfinder would have to be far more intelligent to handle this one:
22:25<Eddi|zuHause2>those combo signals don't seem like they'd ever work as expected...
22:25<fjb>Maybe fiddling with time tables could help a bit.
22:26<fjb>I tried many signal layouts there. Nothing worked.
22:26<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, i can imagine
22:28<fjb>I had to blast the house behind the short platform and join the track behind the station to the line.
22:29<fjb>It looked like this then:
22:33<Eddi|zuHause2>the combo signals still look wrong...
22:34<fjb>Which of the signals?
22:35<Eddi|zuHause2>you can either presignal the track from the lower right into the station, or from the station outwards, but not both
22:37<Eddi|zuHause2>that's one of the main limitation of presignals, they don't look for the reachable exit signals, but all exit signals in the block
22:37<fjb>Hm, maybe. But it was working somehow. And the single track line should get a second track soon.
22:38<fjb>Yes, that is a real pain with the presignals.
22:41<fjb>Can somebody please teach the ai not to build 90° turns? Thank you.
22:42<Eddi|zuHause2>that one is easy: turn off the AI, it will never build 90° turns anymore
22:43<fjb>Sounds way too easy. :-)
22:44<fjb>And who wants to play with me then?
22:44<Eddi|zuHause2>i didn't bother with AI in over 10 years now...
22:45<Eddi|zuHause2>the game is still interesting ;)
22:45<fjb>I didn't know the game a year ago. :-)
22:45<Eddi|zuHause2>i got annoyed with the AI pretty fast
22:46<Eddi|zuHause2>then i learned that you can put competitors to 0 ;)
22:46<fjb>I doesn't annoy me that much on bigger maps.
22:46<Eddi|zuHause2>i can't remember ever having AI allowed in TTD
22:47<fjb>I like it when the ai road vehicles are mixing with my own.
22:47<Eddi|zuHause2>i rarely do road anyway
22:47<Eddi|zuHause2>i played a little with trams
22:47<Eddi|zuHause2>but it's no real fun without passenger destinations
22:48<Eddi|zuHause2>also, the german tram set is very incomplete
22:48<fjb>The dutch tram set is nice.
22:48<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, need to sleep
22:48<fjb>Ok, good night.
22:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r11914 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Documentation: fix some @file statement
22:49<Eddi|zuHause2>what an odd commit at 5 AM ;)
22:49<fjb>:-) 5 AM where in the world...
22:49<fjb>And CIA sounds evel anyway.
22:54<fjb>Does an electrified railway line only have higher building costs or also higher maintaining costs?
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23:10<rave>night all
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23:12<fjb>Good night.
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 18 00:00:04 2008