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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-01-19

---Logopened Sat Jan 19 00:00:37 2008
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01:24<LittleMikey>hey hey hey guys
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01:42<LittleMikey>anyone awake?
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02:36<LittleMikey>I need to speak to a OTTD dev about my title page competition, anyone know who I should contact?
02:39<TinoDidriksen>Might want to wait till the afternoon. Not many people on at this godless hour.
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02:47<HMage>ello everyone! I'm back! :D
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02:49<HMage>yes murray I'm gonna terrorize you all again! :D
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02:59<LittleMikey>Lol, what godless hour is this TinoDidriksen? Its 6:30 pm for me ^_^;
03:00<TinoDidriksen>But it's 09 here.
03:00<TinoDidriksen>And for most developers.
03:00<LittleMikey>9 am?
03:00<LittleMikey>heh nice ^_^
03:00<TinoDidriksen>Yup, most are Europeans.
03:01<murray>same here
03:01<murray>i've been up all night sitting on my school working with an assignment
03:01<murray>and now i'm done! and going home! to SLEEP!
03:02<murray>(just had to tell someone)
03:02<murray>'night :>
03:03<HMage>11:03 here :)
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03:31<blathijs>murray: Don't you just love deadlines? :-)
03:31<blathijs>murray: But, your school is actually open during the night?
03:32<@peter1138>maybe he was locked in
03:34<TinoDidriksen>Could be a university. Open 24/7.
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04:18<Wolf01>isn't newwater 0.6 fully supported yet?
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04:29<dih>silence... in every channel i joined... :-(
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04:31<dih>hello peter
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05:31<Desolator>kinda...quiet in here
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05:34*dih slaps Desolator for breaking the silence :-P
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06:08<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11924 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Codechange: All dropdowns now use the dropdown widget, so compatibility code can be removed
06:11<madis[LA]>hmm.. I started a new OpenTTD Single Player game, but this is one, which I'll provide you screenshots.. The playing style is greatly influenced on #OpenTTDCoop :)
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06:19<Draakon>LA; good luck
06:20*Draakon plays SA now
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06:22<@peter1138>modern depots in 1945 :o
06:23<@peter1138>too many signals :o
06:25<dih>can tiles get hold of the state of one other diagonal tile?
06:25<dih>i.e. a tile touching one of the 4 corners?
06:26<dih>i am thinking of the shores in the newwater grf
06:26<dih>peter1138: you looked at the screenshots of LA
06:27<dih>any way some of those shores could be made neater?
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06:33<Wolf01>peter, can you do something for the plant trees tool? i assume that i shouldn't clear the land when i want to plant trees and i have the clear land tool active :|
06:40<madis[LA]>peter1138: these are Ameechers depots.. And they don't have timeline... Too many signals is because I always have signal every other tile. (another lesson from #coop :D ) And I'm too lazy to change that setting for MM
06:41<Draakon-AWAY>LA: post 3 screen shots in one post not one ss per post
06:41<@peter1138>Ah, but Ameecher specifically designed them for 1960's onwards...
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06:42<Draakon>peter: let the guy play them in 1920 or 1930 or whatever year
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06:52<madis[LA]>Draakon: Posts edited :); peter1138: I'm not aiming this game to be as realistic as possible
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07:16<Wolf01>nice, i got "unknown destination no longer accept food" after removing a station inside a town
07:16<Wolf01>maybe the message system was busy
07:17<Prof_Frink>I accept food.
07:18<Wolf01>i accepted food, now i don't need it
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07:21<Prof_Frink>SmatZ: Lies.
07:21<SmatZ>it is morning when I wake up :-p
07:22<Gekz>coincidence perhaps?
07:23*hylje wonders if he should run around aimlessly
07:24<SmatZ>run hylje, run!
07:24<Gekz>hylje: can i come?
07:25<hylje>if your language can imply that in one word
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07:27<hylje>i guess not :-)
07:27<Gekz>can yours?
07:27<hylje>stacked suffixes
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08:10<madis[LA]>hmm a crahs :( I submitted a bug report as the dialogue told me..
08:11<Rubidium>and I closed it because it's a duplicate of at least 3 other bugreports...
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08:20<dih>hello Rubidium :-)
08:21<@peter1138>Rubidium, except the other reports bothered to find out what caused it ;)
08:22<Rubidium>peter1138: two of the three others did
08:22<Rubidium>so it's 50-50 now
08:26<madis[LA]>peter1138: I tried.. but I didn't find..
08:27<madis[LA]>but maybe enlightnen me what ws the cause? or.. better which FlySpray tasks are the others?
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08:28<madis[LA]>ok.. found out :D
08:29<madis[LA]>and sorrt for duplicating :D
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08:37<Gekz>@lart hylje
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08:52<madis[LA]>hmm... I told you that Yorick is a bot... :P
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09:00<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r11925 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp town_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r122, r9867): loading old, pre savegame version 2, savegames.
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09:30<Sacro>how unprototypical
09:30<Gekz>Sacro: hugs?
09:31*Sacro hugs Gekz
09:32<Cosmo>peter1138, nice
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09:32<Cosmo>is there an easier way to build huge stations?
09:32<@peter1138>increase max station spread
09:33<Cosmo>where would i find that?
09:33<Cosmo>ah found it
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09:34<Cosmo>ooo thanks peter1138
09:34<Cosmo>oh and give my thanks to the person who ports them to OSX
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10:28<Desolator>hello folks
10:29<Desolator>do you know any cross-platform toolkit that can provide a layer abstract enough for an IDE? (which will deal mostly with XML & Lisp)
10:29<Desolator>I need Windows 2000 & up, GNU/Linux & Mac OS X support
10:29<Maedhros>layer of what?
10:29<Desolator>for the system APIs
10:29<Desolator>for GUI, to edit files, etc...
10:30<Desolator>I'm not sure if wxWidgets provides that
10:30<Desolator>And I don't know which to pick from Qt & GTKmm
10:30<Desolator>Qt is GPL 2 only, and I want to use GPL 3 :(
10:30<hylje>qt's becoming gpl3
10:30<Desolator>is ver 4?
10:31<Desolator>GTKmm, I'm not sure if it's installed by default in most Linux distros...and I want to keep everything nicely grouped, not like in C, all global (*points to GTK+*)
10:33<Prof_Frink>Desolator: Yes, Qt4 was released under GPL2/3/$VERSION_ALLOWED_BY_TROLLTECH yesterday
10:33<Desolator>haha "The latest beta is 0.6.0-beta3, released on January 16th 2007.", good typo :)
10:33<Desolator>(though it's fixed now)
10:34<Prof_Frink>That's not a typo, that's autopilot
10:41<@peter1138>So it's Brianetta's fault?
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10:57<Nickman>hi all
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11:02<Cosmo>hey again
11:03<Cosmo>thought you might be interested in this
11:03<Cosmo>look at the news paper
11:04<Gonozal_VIII>long industry name, long city name... problem
11:09<Cosmo>well I'll be off again
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11:58<madis[LA]>hmm.. any developer here? or anyone who knows? If I replace tunnels with a newgrf and make it so they would only appear in Toyland (action07)... They don't
11:58<madis[LA]>I have toyland infrastructure almost coded, but it won't react on tunnel sprites
11:59<madis[LA]>I think they have some other grfID, but does anyone know which?
12:00<madis[LA]>in trg1r they tunnels start from 2365 sprite
12:01<madis[LA]>it's 93D -> 93 0D
12:01<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11926 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Rivers. Graphics must be provided by NewGRF else rivers are drawn as canals. Rivers can currently only be placed with-in the scenario editor.
12:01<Gonozal_VIII>wow rivers
12:01<@peter1138> sort of thing
12:02<Gonozal_VIII>i've seen rivers on patch screenshots...
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12:02<@peter1138>yeah, same thing
12:02<madis[LA]>peter, you have any idea about my problem
12:03<@peter1138>toyland tunnels? absolutely no idea
12:03<madis[LA]>everything else works :(
12:04<hylje>peter1138: rivers don't flood at all?
12:04<Gonozal_VIII>can't find toyland tunnels in trg1r, they must be somewhere else
12:05<@peter1138>no, they're static, at least for the moment
12:05<@peter1138>pretty much eyecandy
12:05<@peter1138>but boats can go along them of course
12:05<hylje>they are great nevertheless
12:05<Gonozal_VIII>do they count as water for industry placement?
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12:06<madis[LA]>Gonozal_VIII: The sprites are in trgtr.grf
12:06<hylje>but what would be totally neat would be river depth and water throughput
12:06<madis[LA]>but id SHOULD be the same then in normal tunnels
12:06<Gonozal_VIII>same? no
12:07<madis[LA]>road sprites have same ID, rails have same ID
12:07<madis[LA]>terrain has same ID
12:07<madis[LA]>truck stops have same ID
12:07<Gonozal_VIII>decode the grf and look
12:07<madis[LA]>that is a grf not a newgrf...
12:08<madis[LA]>so it's just a bunch of realsprites
12:08<Gonozal_VIII>grfcodec -d
12:08<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't stop you from finding the id
12:08<madis[LA]>I have decoded it and it's opened right now :!
12:08<madis[LA]>ID is not written anywhere
12:08<@peter1138>hylje, go ahead and write that then. you can still use the same code for drawing it ;)
12:09<Gonozal_VIII>it is, in the pcx
12:09<madis[LA]>thats the sprite number
12:09<Gonozal_VIII>that's different? hmm...
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12:09<@peter1138>Gonozal_VIII, for industry placement, no idea...
12:09<hylje>while i'm at that
12:09<@peter1138>what industries go on water?
12:10<madis[LA]>fishing boat on ECS
12:10<madis[LA]>oil rig
12:10<hylje>could need to do more water stuff
12:10<Gonozal_VIII>some ecs stuff like breweries or food processing want to be close to water
12:10<madis[LA]>some tourist centresin ECS need to be near water
12:10<hylje>to not make it broken in multiplayer
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12:11<hylje>e.g. redirecting a river to flood other players' stuff
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12:11<madis[LA]>Gonozal_VIII: Only in trg1r the sprite number is grfID
12:12<madis[LA]>and if I don't add action07, then it changes things in all climates
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12:14<Gonozal_VIII>i never did any toyland grfing...
12:15<hylje>peter1138: i take it rivers are simply terrain objects
12:15<Gonozal_VIII>is tile type water?
12:16<Gonozal_VIII>that should be enough for industry placement rules
12:16<@peter1138>locks and ship depots are tile type water too...
12:17<madis[LA]>does anyone here have active TTDP install? ŚO he could test something for me.
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12:18<madis[LA]>ok.. I'll try to get one tester in #tycoon channel at quakenet :)
12:18<@peter1138>won't find many there
12:18<Gonozal_VIII>no need to go to quakenet madis
12:18<Gonozal_VIII>oftc #tycoon
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12:23<hylje>i think to prevent river (flooding) abuse
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12:24<hylje>ottd needs terrain hardness
12:24<hylje>(and by extension bedrock, too)
12:25<hylje>digging an alternative route for the river should be expensive and blocking the current should be hard
12:25<hylje>"raised" land is soft, and water can break it easily
12:26<UnderBuilder>one question... will be possible to code more inclinated slopes in openttd or that will be too hard?
12:27<hylje>it'd involve breaking most all GRF that deals with terrain
12:28<orudge>[17:27:06] <madis[LA]> my god, how difficult it is to get help in #tycoon channel... <-- I would say that was perhaps a bit uncalled for. Evidently, there was nobody at the time who could test your GRF or whatever, doesn't mean that's always the case
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12:28<orudge>remember also that #tycoon is a generally quieter channel than #openttd
12:28<Digitalfox>This river stuff maybe Lord and Zephris could support it in new terrain :\
12:28<madis[LA]>ok.. sorry..
12:29<GoneWacko>[18:28:26] <orudge> remember also that #tycoon is a generally quieter channel than #openttd
12:29<GoneWacko>that's hardly true is it? D:
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12:29<madis[LA]>digitalFox, we think about it :)
12:29<@orudge>GoneWacko: well
12:29<@orudge>at least in number of lurkers
12:29<@orudge>and actual on-topic discussion
12:29<GoneWacko>pfft, on-topic discussion is over-rated :(
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12:33<Gonozal_VIII>for my taste those river graphics have too many stones at the slopes
12:33<Gonozal_VIII>ships could never use that
12:33<@peter1138>that's the point
12:33<Wolf01>ships can't use them anyway
12:33<@peter1138>they're not supposed to use them
12:33<Gonozal_VIII>then it's ok
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12:35<Gonozal_VIII>sorry for my stupid comments without testing first^^
12:35<Wolf01>i don't like so much the locks instead, the ships should wait in the middle of the lock instead of travel as many fast as posible through it
12:35<Gonozal_VIII>yes, locks would need some fixing
12:35<Wolf01>and one ship per time
12:36<Gonozal_VIII>ship goes in, gate closes, water rises, other gate opens, ship leaves :-)
12:37<hylje>ship routes, signals
12:37<hylje>go do that
12:38<Wolf01>read: "only one ship can travel in one tile per time"
12:38<Gonozal_VIII>yes... some collision detection like rvs
12:39<Wolf01>RV needs more collision detect too
12:39<Gonozal_VIII>see... some^^
12:40<Gonozal_VIII>train collision detection isn't perfect either
12:40<Gonozal_VIII>there should be a difference between slow and fast crash
12:41<Gonozal_VIII>and every train that kills a rv is completely unharmed? baad
12:41<hylje>hitpoints :-)
12:41<Gonozal_VIII>no... breakdowns... only partial destroyed.. like that
12:41<hylje>lethal and nonlethal hitpoints
12:42<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: And every rv that crashes into a stationary train at 2mph is destroyed
12:42<hylje>when lethal go to zero, destruction
12:42<hylje>when nonlethal goes to zero, breakdown
12:42<hylje>after breakdown is fixed, nonlethal goes back to half (depot service fills it full)
12:42<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't need hitpoints for that.. speed would be enough
12:43<Gonozal_VIII>could lower the reliability
12:43<Eddi|zuHause3>it'd suffice to reduce reliability
12:43<Eddi|zuHause3>that's some kind of "hitpoints" already
12:43<Gonozal_VIII>work with existing stuff instead of new hitpoints
12:44<hylje>fine, rename hitpoints to reliability :)
12:44<Prof_Frink>How about: every collision "ages" the train by (say) 5 years, so it needs replacing sooner
12:44<hylje>is anyone aware of somebody doing any design for a landscape / river feature
12:45<Eddi|zuHause3>boekabart was the last one to try rivers
12:45<hylje>i'd like to scrape the docs (if any) for insight
12:45<hylje>then the least i can do is to publish mine
12:45<Eddi|zuHause3>the concept looked quite impressive, with varying water levels and stuff
12:45<Gonozal_VIII>collision below speed x does nothing, below speed y it reduces reliability, above speed y some parts are destroyed
12:45<@peter1138>it is
12:46<@peter1138>but he abandoned it :(
12:47<Gonozal_VIII>if every train engine is destroyed, the remaining wagons are too... can't keep them without engine
12:47<hylje>shunting would fix that
12:48<Gonozal_VIII>yes, shunting would be nice
12:48<Eddi|zuHause3>and horrible things happen if you hit a full tanker truck
12:48<hylje>+1 for hitpoint-type reliability
12:48<Eddi|zuHause3>(that was the second worst train accident in germany)
12:48<Gonozal_VIII>every collision now looks like you hit a full tanker truck^^
12:49<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, but it has the effect as if you hit a fly with the windshield
12:49<Gonozal_VIII>yes... trains don't care about it at all
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12:51<Prof_Frink>A bit of fire never hurt anyone.
12:51-!-Zahl [] has quit [Quit: Windows shutdown) ((~_~]"]
12:52<Eddi|zuHause3>(PS: the worst train accident was the ICE derailing near Eschede)
12:52<Eddi|zuHause3>(not to confuse with Enschede, that was where the fireworks factory blew up)
12:54<Gonozal_VIII>not long ago i saw a n24 documentation about what happened with the ice in eschede
12:54<Gonozal_VIII>that was a lot of bad luck
12:54-!-dih [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:55<Eddi|zuHause3>it's always a lot of bad luck
12:55<Eddi|zuHause3>it's rarely that only one thing goes wrong
12:56<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause3: Well, either bad luck or idiots.
12:56<Gonozal_VIII>it happens a lot that only one thing goes wrong but they usually have safety measures for that
12:56<Eddi|zuHause3>I think idiots could also count as bad luck ;)
12:57<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: yeah, that's what i mean
12:57<Prof_Frink>No. Bad luck doesn't put you in the running for a Darwin
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13:03<Gonozal_VIII>what does ./configure do?
13:04<hylje>boek's deepwater 5 is the latest and greatest in sealevel?
13:04-!-Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
13:06<Gonozal_VIII>yay i've got rivers :D
13:06<madis[LA]>ok.. at last I got TTDP installed... to see what? to see that the grf has to be faulty :(
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13:09<yorick>what's the deepwater link
13:10<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: ./configure detects what kind of system you use, then it searches which libraries you have installed etc.
13:10<Gonozal_VIII>so i only need that once?
13:11<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: yeah, usually once is enough
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>i've made a file update.bat now, containing:
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>cd C:\OpenTTD\source
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>svn update
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\openttd.exe C:\OpenTTD\old\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\lang\english.lng C:\OpenTTD\old\lang\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\lang\german.lng C:\OpenTTD\old\lang\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\data\chars.grf C:\OpenTTD\old\data\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\data\openttdw.grf C:\OpenTTD\old\data\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\openttd.exe C:\OpenTTD\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\lang\english.lng C:\OpenTTD\lang\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\lang\german.lng C:\OpenTTD\lang\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\data\chars.grf C:\OpenTTD\data\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\data\openttdw.grf C:\OpenTTD\data\
13:11<Gonozal_VIII>wow that looks bigger here than in the file
13:12<Eddi|zuHause3>err... what is this "old" supposed to do?
13:12<yorick>sure its in \bin?
13:12-!-Guest3676 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:12<Eddi|zuHause3>AFTER you did make?
13:13-!-Osai [] has quit [Quit: Osai]
13:13<yorick>I thpught it would be going to \objs\release
13:13<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't matter if before or after?
13:13<yorick>I think it does
13:14<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm there are files in release too...
13:14<Eddi|zuHause3>it doesn't matter if you overwrite the old stuff and then backup the old stuff?
13:14<Gonozal_VIII>it overwrites that?
13:14<Gonozal_VIII>how does it know where to overwrite :S
13:14<Eddi|zuHause3>make overwrites the binary
13:14<madis[LA]>speaking of pastebin... Could anyone check why doesn't it load tunnels for Toyland
13:15<SpComb>copy C:\OpenTTD\source\bin\openttd.exe C:\OpenTTD\
13:15<Eddi|zuHause3>ah, you copy stuff out of the bin directory
13:15<Eddi|zuHause3>why would you do that?
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13:16<yorick>openttd.exe is not in \bin\
13:16<Gonozal_VIII>because bin is so crowded?
13:16<yorick>its in objs\release\
13:16<Eddi|zuHause3>ln -s openttd.exe source/bin/openttd.exe
13:16<Gonozal_VIII>it is in both
13:16<yorick>but the built one is in the release dir
13:16<Eddi|zuHause3>err, other way round
13:16<Eddi|zuHause3>ln -s source/bin/openttd.exe openttd.exe
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13:16<Gonozal_VIII>then what is the other one?
13:17<yorick>dunno that
13:17<Eddi|zuHause3>objs is a temporary dir
13:17<yorick>but its there before make...
13:17<Eddi|zuHause3>make copies the results from objs to bin
13:17<yorick>hmm... not here...
13:17<Eddi|zuHause3>it's the last step make does
13:17<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: problem with copying is that you miss updates to the data dir
13:18<Eddi|zuHause3>"ln -s source/bin/openttd.exe openttd.exe" creates a symbolic link instead
13:18<Gonozal_VIII>like the merge of all those grfs to openttd.grf? does that happen often?
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause3>how should i know what they think of next?
13:20<Gonozal_VIII>i don't want to play from the source dir..
13:21<yorick>what are you trying to do?
13:21<Gonozal_VIII>update my gamedir to new revision
13:21<Gonozal_VIII>seems to work
13:22<Eddi|zuHause3>like i said, make a link
13:22<Eddi|zuHause3>you don't have to update tha
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13:23<yorick>is it very hard to type "svn up" "configure" and "make"?
13:23<Gonozal_VIII>yes it is?
13:23<Gonozal_VIII>and configure sometimes asks strange things like endianness or os...
13:24<yorick>well... need some food
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13:24<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11927 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11926): unable to place canals in game
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13:25<Gonozal_VIII>hmm error
13:26<Gonozal_VIII>is there some random stuff in make?
13:26<Gonozal_VIII>sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't
13:27<Eddi|zuHause3>usually not...
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13:29<Gonozal_VIII>i ran my .bat... error
13:29<Gonozal_VIII>ran it again, now i have r11927 here and seems to work
13:29<madis[LA]>dalestan :) I have asked help here for a while, but now I see you're online so I ask from you :D
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13:30<madis[LA]>it shows everything right but tunnels...
13:31<Eddi|zuHause3>an auto-reconnect hardly qualifies as "online"
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13:32<madis[LA]>perhaps you are right...
13:33<Eddi|zuHause3>there might be too little contrast between the white and the green
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13:33<madis[LA]>I hoped so much :( :P but fortunatly someone has already downloaded the grf from the post and pcx.. So maybe someone has looked at the nfo already :)
13:34<madis[LA]>and maybe someone CAN help me..
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13:34<Gonozal_VIII>real snow is whiter... but brighter snow would hurt the eyes
13:34<Gonozal_VIII>so i think it's good
13:35<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not snow, it's toyland
13:36<Gonozal_VIII>oh... not the inlined image
13:36<madis[LA]>where did you get impression it's snow?
13:36<madis[LA]>what is snow?
13:36<Gonozal_VIII>you're really la? what's that madis?
13:37<madis[LA]>that's my name... Johannes Madis Aasmäe :P
13:38<Gonozal_VIII>i thought you were some other guy with la^^
13:38<madis[LA]>and with same name format? currentname[previousname] ? :D
13:39<madis[LA]>LA[lord] was because before it I was LordAzamath :P
13:39<Gonozal_VIII>didn't realise that^^
13:39<madis[LA]>but that's not important
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13:40<Eddi|zuHause3>i know people who change nicks like dresses
13:40<madis[LA]>madis[LA[LordAzamath]] ? .
13:41<Eddi|zuHause3>if they weren't authed and get +av, i'd never notice who they were ;)
13:41<hylje>this dress is getting rather frayed i think
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13:42<madis[LA]>Eddi|zuHause3: I have had very little different names... LA[something here] madis[LA] or LordAzamath and for wwottdgd I was LordAzamath[Baltica] because I was in Baltica company
13:43<Eddi|zuHause3>why would you do that? :p
13:43<Gonozal_VIII>i've hat a looot of different nicks^^
13:43<Gonozal_VIII>if you count the /nick somerandomkeys after i got disconnected and nickname already in use...
13:44<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... who wants to take bets if i come back after a reboot?
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13:44<Gonozal_VIII>hehe, what did you do?
13:45<Gonozal_VIII>windows (xp)?
13:45<Gonozal_VIII>then why reboot after update?
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13:46<Gonozal_VIII>i thought it could even do kernel updates without reboot
13:47<Gonozal_VIII>with magic
13:47<madis[LA]>hello glx
13:47<Eddi|zuHause3>magic, sure, but it's most likely a quasi-reboot
13:48<madis[LA]>ok.. brb
13:48<madis[LA]>[reboot to Mandriva]
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13:58<hylje>ive put some thought at rivers
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14:01<yorick>- Water has depth, and it can fill holes in the ground. <-- is in the deepwater patch
14:02-!-tneo [] has joined #openttd
14:02<hylje>the third note is of interest
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14:02<yorick>I read from top to bottom
14:02<yorick>not the other way around...
14:02<hylje>you might want to read the whole thing before complaining :)
14:03<yorick>it was something I had to complain about instantly
14:03<SpComb>a fluid physics engine!
14:04-!-raimar3 [] has joined #openttd
14:04<yorick>how much are the chances that is going to be included?
14:04<SpComb>you could start playing a variant of the FSG in OpenTTD
14:05<yorick>FSG = ...?
14:05<hylje>fluid physics, yes
14:05<hylje>how else is one going to have water
14:05<SpComb>yorick: falling sand game
14:06<yorick>- 3D landscape, with each cube knowing its type <-- the dev's said it's not going to be included
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>"Beim Laden von ist folgender Fehler aufgetreten:
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>Keine Verbindung zu Rechner"
14:07<yorick>now in english?
14:07<Gonozal_VIII>stacked tiles
14:07<tneo>No connection with ...
14:07<Eddi|zuHause3>"no connection to <server>"
14:08<SpComb>what's the GNAA got to do with akamai?
14:08<Eddi|zuHause3>official download link for the ati drivers
14:08<Eddi|zuHause3>and i can't seem to find any mirrors
14:08<tneo>Can someone explain the different options for town growth? What is the influence of the settings: "Twice as fast" and "Size multiplier"
14:09<yorick>is "Twice as fast" not clear enough?
14:09<Eddi|zuHause3>tneo: a small number of towns get classified as "cities", which start out with bigger size and grow faster
14:10<Eddi|zuHause3>these settings says how much faster and how much bigger
14:10<yorick>that's the amount of towns that will get cities patch settings
14:10<Maedhros>and size multiplier is how much bigger cities will be than normal towns at the start of the game
14:10<tneo>Eddi|ZuHause3: So those settings only influence towns/ cities that already start out with larger populations?
14:11<tneo>Thank you :)
14:11-!-raimar2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:19*Maedhros is attempting to upgrade from FreeBSD 6 to 7, and crossing all available fingers
14:19*yorick crosses fingers for you
14:19<Eddi|zuHause3>why would they offer such a file and not provide any mirrors? damn...
14:19*madis[LA] crosses yorick's fingers too
14:26<yorick>one of my fingers broke
14:26<yorick>madis crossed them too hard
14:27<yorick>where can I download the river grf?
14:29<yorick>are rivers placable during game?
14:30<yorick>hmm... that would allow flooding to easily, now I think of it
14:30<yorick>but there may be players that can patch openttd client so it can be flooded?
14:31<@peter1138>rivers currently don't
14:31<Gonozal_VIII>they behave like canals
14:31<yorick>but with heightdiffs
14:31<Gonozal_VIII>but yes... players can patch the client to flood... but server won't
14:32<yorick>will desync
14:33<Gonozal_VIII>or disable desync and play a completely different game than the server they are on^^
14:34<yorick>tried that yesterday^^
14:34<yorick>didn't work
14:34<yorick>in newgrf_engine
14:34<Gonozal_VIII>i know that you tried
14:34<Gonozal_VIII>you can disable assertions too
14:34<@peter1138>heh heh
14:34<yorick>when pressed ignore-crashed
14:35<@peter1138>that's like having a car with a warning light
14:35<Gonozal_VIII>ignor never workt with any assertions i encountered...
14:35<@peter1138>and trying to fix the problem by removing the bulb
14:35<Gonozal_VIII>disabling desync is the same.
14:36<yorick>hmm... I cant get the extra shores to work with newwater
14:37<Gonozal_VIII>me neither
14:37<yorick>belugas said he fixed the problem with it
14:37<Gonozal_VIII>that's why i use old shores with newwater
14:37<Eddi|zuHause3>HAH... it works...
14:37<Gonozal_VIII>your kernel thingy?
14:38<Eddi|zuHause3>no, the ati download
14:38<Eddi|zuHause3>i removed everything from above URL until ""
14:39<Gonozal_VIII>they should have a torrent for every download too...
14:39<@peter1138>hmm, i need a heightmap
14:39<@peter1138>cos original & tgp generated maps suck for river-type-structures
14:39<yorick>can ships get throu height differences @canals?
14:39<@peter1138>tgp's better but...
14:40<yorick>and I can't blow them up as a player of the scenario?
14:41<yorick>why don't they flood?
14:41*yorick asks question after question after question after question
14:41<hylje>flooding isn't trivial
14:41<Gonozal_VIII>what should they flood? everything on same level?
14:42<hylje>also, to repost,
14:43<yorick>as of the original patch
14:43<Eddi|zuHause3>afaik boekabart had each water tile have an amount of water stored, if it floods into one direction, it adds water to that other tile, and removes from the current tile
14:43<yorick>they flood everything on the same level and downwards
14:43<hylje>fluid physics :)
14:43<Eddi|zuHause3>springs generate a certain amount of water each tileloop
14:44<yorick>I like
14:44<Gonozal_VIII>[20:40:09] yorick: and I can't blow them up as a player of the scenario? <-- you can
14:44<Eddi|zuHause3>so rivers will reach a (dynamic) fixed point after some time
14:44<Eddi|zuHause3>flowing "downwards" into the sea
14:44<Gonozal_VIII>terraforming or dynamite removes them
14:45<@peter1138>all things that could be added
14:45<yorick>but you cant build them again
14:45<yorick>or they don't flood back
14:45*yorick dislikes
14:45<Eddi|zuHause3>if you "block" rivers, they should search a new path
14:46<hylje>i see you do totally ignore my attempt at some cohesion
14:46<yorick>like in the patch
14:47<Eddi|zuHause3>hylje: i have not completely understood what you were trying to say there
14:47<hylje>do you imply i should use Simple English?
14:47<Gonozal_VIII>kiss him
14:48<Eddi|zuHause3>you said something about you want to save how "solid" the underground is
14:49<Gonozal_VIII>kiss... keep it short and simple^^
14:49<Eddi|zuHause3>and change terraforming/tunneling costs based on that
14:49<yorick>oh, that
14:49*yorick finds tab somewhere in browser
14:50<Gonozal_VIII>sounds good but maybe a bit too much...
14:50<hylje>yes. i dont think natural-seeming rivers just need heterogenous land solid-ness
14:50<hylje>oh, that came out wrong
14:50<yorick>you know devs wont include 3d mode
14:50<Gonozal_VIII>flooding without new tile types should be enough for the moment
14:51<yorick>flooding downwards and on same level
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14:52<Gonozal_VIII>i think water tiles have some bits free... a system with water sources and a water counter like idde said could be nice
14:52<hylje>source isn't relevant
14:52<Gonozal_VIII>not relevant?
14:53<yorick>idde :D
14:53<hylje>just the amount of water, the direction of the flow (if any)
14:53<Gonozal_VIII>i don't mean storing the source everywhere, but some tiles that are sources
14:54<hylje>water sources are special tiles
14:54<Gonozal_VIII>yes, that's what i meant
14:55<yorick>call them "springs"
14:56<Gonozal_VIII>spawns x units of water per tick until it's full then it floods neighbouring tiles and the counters there start to increase
14:56<hylje>a tile is "dry" until it's full of water
14:56<yorick>no, a tile is "wet" unless its clean of water
14:57<Gonozal_VIII>yes, that's better i think
14:57<Gonozal_VIII>no bits free to store the wetness in the other tiles
14:57<hylje>better that way then
14:59<hylje>a wet tile knows its 1. water volume 2. flow direction 3. flow strength(?)
14:59<@peter1138>water 'units' prefer to transfer to other water tiles
14:59<@peter1138>so until a all tiles are 'full' it won't flood
14:59<yorick>but they can only transfer to tiles that are on the same level or beneath
14:59<@peter1138>hmm, now i have to define springs :o
15:00<yorick>like it?
15:00<hylje>i'd make a river not able to flood plains
15:00<Eddi|zuHause3>well _really_ big rivers might fill more than 1 height level, and then also spread to higher level neighbour tiles
15:00<yorick>they can in nature...
15:01<Gonozal_VIII>it will do that only if it has no way out
15:01<hylje>plain flooding destroys everything
15:01<hylje>which isn't very good
15:01<yorick>make it a disaster
15:01<hylje>players can initiate one by redirecting a river to a plain
15:01<Eddi|zuHause3>rivers occasionally relocate their route by themselves
15:01<Gonozal_VIII>players can mess up the game in many ways
15:01<Eddi|zuHause3>it shouldn't fill the complete plain
15:02<hylje>instead make a river, upon entering a plain, generate a fairly straight, slightly random route
15:02<hylje>which is one tile lower than the plain is
15:02<hylje>this preserves the plains
15:02<yorick>wait-they will be flooding as much as needed to reach water
15:03<yorick>would be a better way
15:03<Eddi|zuHause3>water should have a main float direction, and if that is blocked, or water level gets too high, it should flood to the other directions, too
15:03<Gonozal_VIII>they always flood one tile at a time, most likely in the direction they already have
15:03<yorick>my idea!
15:03<hylje>flow direction
15:03<Eddi|zuHause3>this would also make rivers wider at convergence points
15:04<hylje>don't go too far
15:04<yorick>rivers can flood at water as much as they want
15:04<hylje>we want to decide how plain flooding works
15:04<yorick>but if they don't flood at water, they will get higher
15:04<hylje>which is, i believe, very important here
15:04<hylje>when a river reaches sea
15:05<Eddi|zuHause3>that's what i mean, the river searches a route (main float direction), and when that route cannot take all the water, it searches more routes
15:05<hylje>the water is "swallowed" there
15:05<yorick>plain flooding-a river prefers to go into sea direction
15:05<Gonozal_VIII>when it reaches sea, it will stop growing
15:05<yorick>I was going to type that!
15:05<Eddi|zuHause3>a river doesn't know where sea is, until it reaches it
15:06<hylje>rivers should "dig" into the ground slowly
15:06<yorick>there is a newindustries feature about finding water...
15:06<Eddi|zuHause3>a river has one main direction... down
15:06<Eddi|zuHause3>that is the only thing that drives a river, gravity
15:07<Gonozal_VIII>that's difficult hylje... what if an older rivertile digs down and a newer doesn't... river floats upwards
15:07<Eddi|zuHause3>the main problem with the "trivial" approach is when the river reaches a blocked valley
15:07<hylje>the blocked valley fills up. tada, a lake.
15:07<Gonozal_VIII>then it floods the whole valley
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15:07<yorick>"tada, a lake"
15:07<hylje>a river could, of course, try to find a route through the mountain
15:07<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, but a lake must still balance incoming and outgoing water
15:08<hylje>when water level is high enough
15:08<yorick>maybe springs could only be added in scenarios
15:08<yorick>not during normal game generation
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15:08<Gonozal_VIII>it should just stop flooding if it can't find any more floodable tiles
15:08<yorick>is that how a normal river works?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: that means you can simply stop a river by filling it into a tiny hole
15:08<Eddi|zuHause3>such a tiny hole should fill up, and flood forward
15:09<Eddi|zuHause3>a lake to really stop a river should have a certain size ("Verdunstungsfläche")
15:09<Gonozal_VIII>hmm but how? raise the land?
15:09<hylje>what exactly happens when there is a largish hole the river ends up in?
15:09<yorick>it stays there
15:09<yorick>forming a lake
15:10<Gonozal_VIII>it could raise the lowest points of the lake... sediments... until it is high enough to find floodable tiles again
15:10<yorick>nice idea
15:11<yorick>but wouldn't that make the game too dynamic?
15:11<Eddi|zuHause3>boekabart did it by having real water levels on a tile (in pixels), and if water height reaches 8, it can flood higher level tiles
15:11<hylje>yorick: it can be very slow
15:11<hylje>a very neat way to do that would to make a river slowly dig through the earth, that earth ending up in the next lake
15:12<Gonozal_VIII>multiple water levels would be nice... but that would require a lot of sprites
15:12<hylje>not really
15:12<hylje>how would a lake break out upon filling up?
15:12<Eddi|zuHause3>but i think primitive water height gives problems with plains, because it will always flood in all directions
15:12<Gonozal_VIII>the shores.. water could probably the same with different offset
15:13<Eddi|zuHause3>so water could start out at level -4
15:13<hylje>Eddi|zuHause3: this i wrote up:
15:13<hylje>Upon reaching a plain (a flat area), a river continues towards its flow direction creating a canyon one level lower than the plain.
15:13<yorick>good idea
15:13<Eddi|zuHause3>meaning it has 4 water levels until it starts to flood sidewards
15:13<yorick>but the river must become wider with the time
15:13<Eddi|zuHause3>canyon might not be the best idea, because that needs a width of 3...
15:14<hylje>the mechanics of wideness and such isn't too important now
15:14<Gonozal_VIII>it won't if its only water source is a spring
15:14<Eddi|zuHause3>and you have problems if the water flows at the edge of a mountain
15:14<hylje>Eddi|zuHause3: well is that not preferrable to flooding the whole plain?
15:14<Eddi|zuHause3>you have to lower half the mountain as well
15:14<Gonozal_VIII>it won't flood the whole plain if it has a way out
15:15<hylje>there isn't a way out when the water first arrives there
15:15<Eddi|zuHause3>like i said, have default water level of -4 (= half a tile lower), so you have a river bed of 1 tile width, without changing landscape
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15:15<hylje>the river terraforming logic would of course prefer longer routes to avoid "expensive" terraforming
15:15<hylje>because even water is lazy
15:16<hylje>Eddi|zuHause3: do elaborate
15:16<yorick>we need a seperate pathfinder for water
15:16<Eddi|zuHause3>the river bed is -4 pixels below the flat plain
15:16<hylje>on the same "level"?
15:16<Eddi|zuHause3>if more water flows in, it builds up until level 0
15:16<hylje>yes, i had that in mind but couldn't make words out of it
15:17<Eddi|zuHause3>if you reach level 0, you can flood tiles other than the flow direction
15:17<Eddi|zuHause3>if you reach level 4 (= valley is completely filled), you can flood an upwards slope, creating a new -4 riverbed
15:18<Gonozal_VIII>sounds good... but how would that look?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause3>big lakes might loose water levels by other means than floating, to have rivers end in lakes
15:18<yorick>make a patch
15:18<hylje>i think we can proceed to making a patch only when we know what exactly we want from it
15:19<yorick>any dev's to say what you think about it?
15:19<hylje>Upon ending up in a large hole in the landscape, the water floods the hole, forming a lake. Lakes that become large enough without a way out become "black holes" for water.
15:20<Eddi|zuHause3>like i said, really big lakes could end up as black holes, but small lakes shouldn't
15:20<Gonozal_VIII>large enough as in x tiles per connected spring?
15:21<Eddi|zuHause3>you could have a small random chance of decreasing a water level
15:21<hylje>x tiles per inbound flow units
15:21<Prof_Frink>hylje: When calculating flow, have each tile "lose" a percentage of the water that goes into it
15:21<yorick>water tiles can take an endless amount of water
15:21<Eddi|zuHause3>without adding that water level to the neighbour tile
15:21<hylje>Prof_Frink: i've been thinking of "flow units" without much concrete concept behind them, thanks
15:21<Gonozal_VIII>only level 0 water is endless
15:22<Jortuny>this is probably a stupid question, but is there anything special you need to do to get a ship to load oil at an oilfield? i have a ship, refit for oil, waiting at the oilfield, which produces quite a bit, but it never loads :(
15:22<Eddi|zuHause3>"flow" means "take x water levels from tile, and put x water levels on the next tile"
15:23<hylje>the next tile = the tile to the direction of the flow
15:23<Gonozal_VIII>with a small random
15:23<Gonozal_VIII>only straight would be boring
15:24<hylje>bendy rivers are eye-candy
15:24<hylje>and can be done later
15:24<Eddi|zuHause3>no, float direction is calculated randomly on the initial expansion
15:24<hylje>(river pathfinder!)
15:24<Eddi|zuHause3>then it will stay constant (mostly)
15:24<hylje>yes, non-flooding river tiles cannot randomly decide to flood
15:25<Eddi|zuHause3>if a river tile expands, the next river tile takes over the direction of the last expansion, with a smaller random chance to change direction
15:25<hylje>well put
15:26<Gonozal_VIII>[21:24:03] hylje: bendy rivers are eye-candy :P
15:26<Eddi|zuHause3>like 1/2 straight, 1/4 left, 1/4 right
15:26<Gonozal_VIII>i wrote the same :P
15:26<Eddi|zuHause3>(numbers to be tweaked)
15:26<Gonozal_VIII>but of course i agree
15:26<yorick>more like 3/4 straight 1/8 left 1/8 right
15:26<Prof_Frink>Canals should have incresed 'capacity' over rivers as they're dredged
15:27<Gonozal_VIII>canals don't flood
15:28<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm or do they...
15:28<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: Yeah, but you could replace a 2-square wide river with a 1-square canal
15:28<yorick>canals don't flood
15:28<Eddi|zuHause3>canals flood on the same conditions as upwatrds slopes
15:28<Gonozal_VIII>with level 4 yes
15:28<Eddi|zuHause3>so if the neighbour river reaches level +4
15:28<Jortuny>no one knows what I'm being stupid about regarding oil rigs? :/
15:28<Prof_Frink>Or increase drainage from a lake
15:28<yorick>canals have special borders
15:28<hylje>When a river tile expands to another tile, the claimed tile's flow direction can change from the original. Mostly though straight ahead (using the flow direction of the original): chances can be like 2/4 straight, 1/4 to left and right each.
15:28<yorick>"to stop flooding"
15:28<hylje>i'll save the new draft for some looks and corrections
15:29<Gonozal_VIII>sorry jortuny, it should work like you described it, so your problem wasn't obvois with your description
15:30<yorick>but if we have a 3-tile wide river, the front tiles have a chance to flood in al directions indepentedly
15:30<Jortuny>Gonozal_VIII: ok, thanks, I guess I'll just have to figure it out :)... I don't have to send a helicopter there first or anything to 'claim' the rig, do I?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm still not fond of the canyon idea
15:31<yorick>and we get rivers being split apart
15:31<Gonozal_VIII>nope, no heli, ship is enough
15:31<yorick>but set it to full load
15:31<yorick>to start with
15:31<Jortuny>Gonozal_VIII: should the rig turn my livery color? or does it stay grey?
15:31<hylje>yeah, that flatter way of doing it is probably better
15:31<yorick>it stays normal
15:31<hylje>but i don't know how to put it clearly
15:31<Jortuny>:( then I have no idea what's going on
15:32<yorick>submit a bug report?
15:32<Gonozal_VIII>sure that the tanker is refitted to oil?
15:32<Gonozal_VIII>not fuel oil or something?
15:32-!-nfc [] has quit [Server closed connection]
15:32<Jortuny>the 300k oil one
15:32<Jortuny>er, there's fuel oil?
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15:32<Gonozal_VIII>ecs vectors
15:32<Jortuny>oh, nope
15:32<yorick>Gonozal: you're bringing unwanted trouble
15:32-!-Aerandir [] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.36 - -]
15:33<yorick>when talking about fuel oil to a newcomer
15:33<Jortuny>hehe, no worries
15:33<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't break his tankers :P
15:33<Jortuny>I'm sure its something stupid I'm doing, but I can't figure it out :/
15:33<Jortuny>there aren't two stations at the rig, right? like a passenger and oil section?
15:33<Gonozal_VIII>paste a screenshot of the orders and the rig and tanker and everything
15:34<Jortuny>that's what I thought... ok, I'll take a screenshot
15:35<hylje>when a river has several front tiles
15:35<hylje>the first tile to expand spawns a new tile. because water bodies expand only when all tiles are full, the other front tiles cannot expand on their own
15:36<yorick>k, if you say it isn't possible...
15:36<yorick>but wouldn't the whole flow cycle take much CPU?
15:36<hylje>existing rivers need no caring, really
15:36<yorick>constantly having to edit the properties of a tile...
15:36<Gonozal_VIII>how hard is it to detect a connected area of same tiletype?
15:37<yorick>not very
15:37<yorick>it's used in many grf's
15:37<yorick>the current rivers
15:37<hylje>let me elaborate
15:37<Eddi|zuHause3>yorick: tile editing is done on tile loops all the time
15:37<Gonozal_VIII>then maybe store size of the area and total water outside the tiles?
15:37<Eddi|zuHause3>e.g. tree growing
15:37<Eddi|zuHause3>house construction
15:37<Jortuny>shot here: and (for orders + cargo info)
15:38<hylje>when a river tile is "full", it forms a part of the river. it has no logic of its own, it only knows its flow direction, its flow volume. its water level is constant.
15:38<hylje>only when the river is being created, or it is being messed with, logic kicks in
15:38<yorick>how long is the ship standing there?
15:38<Eddi|zuHause3>so... i'm now testing how much i screwed up my installation... someone pray for me...
15:39<Jortuny>oops, the order one didn't upload right.. but I have it at 'full load' there
15:39<yorick>and your ratings at the station?
15:39<yorick>how long is the ship standing there?
15:39<SpComb>so what happens if there's a ship in a lake and then the lake starts draining out via a newly created stream?
15:39<SpComb>does the ship get sucked along?
15:39<Gonozal_VIII>no rating
15:39<Jortuny>no rating, and its been there for 1.5 years
15:39<hylje>SpComb: i dont think ships care about flow
15:39<SpComb>of course they do!
15:40<Gonozal_VIII>does water level decrease?
15:40<yorick>SpComb: same as when you blow up water now?
15:40<Eddi|zuHause3>SpComb: if you terraform so that a lake drains out, you have bigger problems than ships
15:40<yorick>no youtube links allowed
15:40<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, ships should not be affected by flow, but if the water tile disappears, they should blow up
15:40<SpComb>it's relevant
15:41<yorick>that would be a disaster
15:41<yorick>a salt mine?
15:41<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not a disaster, it can only be player initiated
15:41<Eddi|zuHause3>similar to forcing a train through a signal
15:41<Eddi|zuHause3>lakes don't dry up on their own
15:41<hylje>but another player can't force your trains through a signal
15:42<Eddi|zuHause3>that is a problem, yes ;)
15:42<Eddi|zuHause3>but i wouldn't think about that initially
15:42<hylje>i think lakes should attain sediments rather quickly until they are just 1-2 tiles in depth
15:42<Gonozal_VIII>1 tile only without deepwater
15:43<Jortuny>Gonozal_VIII: thanks for your help... I have no idea what changed, but after 2.5 years it suddenly started to load!
15:43<Eddi|zuHause3>if water level grows above 4, automatically raise the tile
15:43<Eddi|zuHause3>problem solved
15:43<Jortuny>(I didn't change anything :/)
15:43<yorick>edit draft
15:43<Gonozal_VIII>yes eddi
15:44<hylje>im editing it all the time
15:44<Eddi|zuHause3>but i was going to reboot...
15:44<hylje>so lakes can be at most one tile deep?
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15:45<yorick>if water_level>4 depth.increase()
15:45<Gonozal_VIII>level 4 is a halftile
15:45<Gonozal_VIII>or a whole tile...
15:46<hylje>so one terrain level deep at most
15:47<hylje>a river tile wants to contain at most X flow units of water. if the tile gets more than that, the river tries to expand in width (if it can)
15:47<yorick>[21:43] <Eddi|zuHause3> if water level grows above 4, automatically raise the tile
15:48<yorick>erm... now I get it
15:48<yorick>it gets one tile higher
15:48<yorick>the whole water
15:48<yorick>the floor, I mean
15:48<Gonozal_VIII>higher tile with water level -4 looks the same as lower tile with water level 8
15:48<yorick>am I right, Gonozal_VIII?
15:48<Gonozal_VIII>not 8
15:49<yorick>*** bot-autolearning asks for confirmation
15:49<Gonozal_VIII>yes, tile 1 higher
15:50<Gonozal_VIII>so there is no level 4...
15:50<Gonozal_VIII>levels start with -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, -4 of next height
15:51<hylje>River tiles want to contain at most X flow units. If it receives more than that, the river will try to expand in width, starting from the source. If something (e.g. a canyon, a building, rail..) blocks the expansion, the river tries to expand to the other side, if not that, it gives up: the tile has a strong current.
15:51<yorick>any value between possible?
15:51<hylje>this'd probably involve the river being a city-like entity
15:52<Gonozal_VIII>nothing between
15:52<hylje>integer values
15:52<Gonozal_VIII>there have to be sprites for every level..
15:52<Gonozal_VIII>to see it?^^
15:52<Gonozal_VIII>would be strange if it suddenly hops up one level
15:53<Gonozal_VIII>level is only a pixel so no problem
15:53<yorick>but it would be strange for a river to have individual tiles looking different
15:53<yorick>because of the flow
15:54<hylje>flowing tiles are all full
15:54<hylje>regardless of how much water flows through
15:55<Gonozal_VIII>they have level 0 until they are blocked?
15:56<yorick>I think
15:56<yorick>but how do they flood then?
15:57<hylje>only flooding tiles (and by extension, secluded lakes) have a level
15:57<Gonozal_VIII>yes but the flowing tiles look like level 0
15:58<Gonozal_VIII>blocked... level 1, 2, 3, raise tile --> level -4
15:59<Gonozal_VIII>1 pixel steps, shouldn't look too strange
16:01<yorick>but who's going to make graphics, code, etc?
16:01<hylje>that's for the future
16:01<hylje>this is design
16:03<Gonozal_VIII>would be nice to have some kind of model
16:04<Gonozal_VIII>i'll try with an excel table
16:04<yorick>", prof_frink"
16:04<yorick>what's that?
16:04<hylje>@seen Prof_Frink
16:04<@DorpsGek>hylje: Prof_Frink was last seen in #openttd 36 minutes and 8 seconds ago: <Prof_Frink> Or increase drainage from a lake
16:04<yorick>'s that all?
16:05<yorick>but ok
16:06<Prof_Frink>uh, what?
16:06<hylje>you've been credited!!
16:06<Prof_Frink>uh, whatwhy?
16:06<yorick>[22:04] <@DorpsGek> hylje: Prof_Frink was last seen in #openttd 36 minutes and 8 seconds ago: <Prof_Frink> Or increase drainage from a lake
16:06<hylje>also, more eyes, more complaints please
16:08<yorick>Belugas, orudge, glx, Ammler, anyone?
16:08*yorick pastes whole list
16:08-!-LA[lord] [~LAlord]] has joined #openttd
16:08<Gonozal_VIII>paste the userlist to highlight everybody^^
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16:09<Prof_Frink>hylje: Only that I'd call large lakes "sinks" rather than "black holes"
16:09<+glx><Gonozal_VIII> paste the userlist to highlight everybody^^ <-- and get a free ban :)
16:09<hylje>Prof_Frink: granted :)
16:09<yorick>totaly free?
16:09<hylje>i'm not too adept with geography and related words
16:09<Prof_Frink>Is that free as in beer or free as in speech?
16:09<yorick>well... I have to pay for it by pasting every name
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16:13<yorick>anyone wanting to say anything about
16:14<hylje>actually, this kind of river stuff doesn't even need sealevel
16:14<hylje>given we fill up lakes' bottoms as they fill
16:14<yorick>but sea is acting as a black hole
16:14<Prof_Frink>hylje: Implement the Rimfall!
16:14<hylje>Prof_Frink: do elaborate
16:14<hylje>yorick: sink
16:15<yorick>but if a lake is able to swallow enough water, that would be ok too
16:15<Prof_Frink>hylje: water cascading over the edge of the world
16:15<Prof_Frink>As seen on the Discworld
16:15<yorick>[22:14] <hylje> yorick: sink <-- [22:14] <hylje> do elaborate
16:15<hylje>that'd be great
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16:16<@Bjarni>I knew that would happen
16:16<@Bjarni>I CAN SEE THE FUTURE :D
16:16<@Bjarni>however I can't tell you about it as it's classified information
16:17<@Bjarni>we will talk about the past instead
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16:17<@Bjarni>did anything interesting happen in here today?
16:17<yorick>any thoughts about this?
16:17<Gonozal_VIII> - River terraforming is lazy. It avoids expensive terraforming, always going to the
16:17<Gonozal_VIII> cheapest direction. This is a pathfinder. <-- that's not really needed
16:18<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: You know the Time Agency was shut down, right?
16:18<Gonozal_VIII>rivers happened bjarni
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16:19<Prof_Frink>hylje: Oh yeah, there should be increased chance of sources on the edge of snowy areas
16:19<hylje>that comes later
16:20<yorick>we're not yet going to look at springs during map generation
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16:20<hylje>that can of course be noted
16:21<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> rivers happened bjarni <-- I knew that
16:21<Gonozal_VIII>yes, you know everything
16:21<Gonozal_VIII>but you asked
16:21<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> yes, you know everything <-- you are starting to learn about how the real world works
16:22<@Bjarni>guys... why are there no system to make rivers S shaped like they are in real life?
16:23<Gonozal_VIII>we're currently working on definitions for river generation :-)
16:23<Gonozal_VIII>as including me
16:23<yorick>1/8 chance that rivers will go sidewards
16:23<@Bjarni>how much did you pay to get included?
16:23<yorick>numbers can be changed
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16:24<yorick>its not gonozal_vii but Gonozal_VIII
16:24<yorick>different thing ^^
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16:24<Gonozal_VIII>capslock sucks^^
16:25<Gonozal_VIII>but capslock does too
16:25<Gonozal_VIII>even more
16:25<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> capslock sucks^^ <--
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16:27<@Bjarni>if anybody tries that here I will kick them
16:27<@Bjarni>except if they want to donate a million dollars or something
16:27<hylje>anything to be clarified, fixed?
16:27<Prof_Frink>hylje: Above a certain number of flow units the tiles should be considered impassable by the ship pathfinder
16:28<yorick>make it pastie
16:28<yorick>that's changeable
16:28<hylje>i like dpaste. its fast.
16:28<@Bjarni>why will you make lakes terraform?
16:28<Gonozal_VIII>flow could increase or decrease ship speed
16:28<hylje>to avoid sealevel
16:28<@Bjarni>if you drain a lake the remaining land afterwards shouldn't be raised
16:29<Gonozal_VIII>water is water is water
16:29<hylje>lake draining, more precisely how rivers start is what needs more thought
16:29<Gonozal_VIII>no draining^^
16:29<@Bjarni>why not?
16:30<@Bjarni>draining a lake and make all the water flow into a town instead sounds like fun :p
16:30<Prof_Frink>hylje: You'll be inundated (no pun intended) with suggestion once you've started implementing it.
16:30<hylje>Bjarni: not to mention competitors
16:31<Prof_Frink>hylje: flooded
16:31<Phoenix_the_II>there anywhere you can specify a scenario's start money?
16:31<hylje>that's a reason for drafting a rather through document of implementation
16:31<hylje>non-moving target
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16:32<yorick>the difficulty settings maybe
16:32<Gonozal_VIII>phoenix, you can start it, use the money cheat and waste money with blowing up water
16:32<hylje>Bjarni: but because how rivers work here, flooding existing property isn't too easy. the river should avoids destroying buildings and stuff as much as it can
16:33<Phoenix_the_II>Gonozal_VIII, without cheating obviously :p
16:33<hylje>of course, given its slumped, it will poke a hole through anything
16:33<Phoenix_the_II>just made myself a scenario
16:33<Phoenix_the_II>but 1million to lay track + a few trains = no go :p
16:33<Phoenix_the_II>for the first line
16:34<@Bjarni>then pick somewhere else for the first line
16:34<Gonozal_VIII>1 million what?
16:34<Gonozal_VIII>curency :P
16:34<@Bjarni>I thought you meant potatoes
16:34<Phoenix_the_II>i mean martian stones
16:35<hylje>a lake with a river bringing water in and a river bringing water out is trivial
16:35<@Bjarni>Martian stones are so expensive that you can buy the world if you want a million of those
16:35<Gonozal_VIII>max loan is more then enough to get started
16:35<@Bjarni>due to their magical power
16:35<@Bjarni>it can lure USA to do anything
16:35<@Bjarni>at any price
16:35<hylje>but how would a lake with a larger outbound river than the inbound river(s) decide how much water goes out?
16:36-!-pavel1269 [] has quit []
16:36<yorick>I gitta go :(
16:36<hylje>yorick: bai
16:36<@Bjarni>hylje: well... it depends on the rain pattern :P
16:36<hylje>no rain considered
16:36<hylje>try again
16:36-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: :(]
16:37<Gonozal_VIII>enough to keep the level at 0 ylje?
16:37<Gonozal_VIII>stupid keyboard
16:37*Bjarni blames Gonozal_VIII's stpuid keybaord for all typos in the wrold
16:37<hylje>if the river is terraformed larger than the inbound river(s), would the lake trickle just enough water to keep itself alive anyway
16:38<@Bjarni>what about rivers starting from a lake?
16:38<@Bjarni>will they drain the lake?
16:39<Gonozal_VIII>there should never be more flow out than in
16:39<hylje>if more comes out, the water level dwindles
16:39<hylje>until the output ceases or downsizes
16:40<Gonozal_VIII>if the water level goes down below -4... what happens to the terrain?
16:40<hylje>it dries up
16:41<@Bjarni>I just thought of system (which I think is likely overkill for this). How about each water tile adds a single point of water points to simulate rain and then a big lake can generate a decent output without any input
16:41<@Bjarni>but a small lake can't
16:41<hylje>that comes later
16:42<@Bjarni>I think this would demand too much CPU power compared to what we gain from it
16:42<hylje>i want to tackle a minimal set of features for this
16:42<hylje>there's water springs as the only source of water
16:42<Gonozal_VIII>ok, below -4 runs dry, should work
16:45<hylje>last revision for today
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16:48<Gonozal_VIII>sounds ok
16:49<Prof_Frink>hylje: Just one thing...
16:49<Prof_Frink>needs more cowbell.
16:50<Gonozal_VIII>sprites for testing can be just default river sprites with a number written on them
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17:25<UnderBuilder> lol
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17:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: bjarni * r11928 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp:
17:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix (r6393): [autoreplace] autoreplace could refit train engines to the wrong cargo type if the old engine had no cargo capacity and the new one had
17:47<CIA-5>OpenTTD: Now autoreplace will always look at the wagons to figure out what to replace to (as originally intended)
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18:10<Digitalfox>Hey guys, is there a place where i can download all windows vista 32bit updates offline, i mean save them in a folder?
18:11<Digitalfox>Well i want to integrate them in a Vista ISO, so i need them
18:11<ln->Is this a Windows Vista support channel?
18:11<Digitalfox>no, but maybe someone could help me :\
18:12<Gonozal_VIII>i guess you could fish them ont of the temporary dir...
18:12<ln->You've voluntarely bought Vista?
18:13<Digitalfox>No, microsoft ofered me a Ultimate licence
18:13<Gonozal_VIII>they have to spread their crap somehow^^
18:13<Digitalfox>Gonozal_VIII: No, i did beta testing in Windows vista Beta 1 and Beta 2
18:14<Digitalfox>And so me and another 12000 betatesters were offered a licence
18:14<Gonozal_VIII>imho vista hasn't even reached beta stage yet
18:15<+glx>Digitalfox: they are usually available on windows update (there should be a link to get the exe)
18:15<Digitalfox>Anyway, i'm using vlite, and want to integrate the updates before creating a Boot ISO, but it seems it's hard to find them all.. And now this is stupid microsoft shut down the option to slipstream SP1 in RTM o_O
18:17<Rubidium>ofcourse it's hard... you aren't allowed as non-legit user or user without internet to run a safe Windows or to circumvent the measures they have taken to make it so
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18:18<Digitalfox>Rubidium: True :(
18:19<Rubidium>what Microsoft basically does is making running a safe and stable OS something where you need a 2 week course for
18:19<Rubidium>and that course is yet another cash cow for them
18:19<Digitalfox>Again True
18:25<Prof_Frink>That is why you should give yourself to the penguin.
18:26<Digitalfox>What i don't understand is how corporate network administrators are going to do when they install vista and after that they have to install sp1 ( SP1 takes 1 hour to install even in Top hardware ), since there's no way of streaming by yourself a DVD, now imagine hundreds of computers.. What a nightmare..
18:27<Prof_Frink>Digitalfox: corporate network admins are going to do the obvious thing and install XP
18:28<LA[lord]>Good night!
18:28<Digitalfox>Prof_Frink: You may think vista isn't being adopted, but it is.. 100 Milion licences sold, that isn't just home users
18:28<Gonozal_VIII>they ship it with new pcs
18:28<Rubidium>Digitalfox: licenses sold != licenses used
18:28<Digitalfox>Rubidium: Solnd and used
18:28-!-LA[lord] [~LAlord]] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.5 :]
18:28<Digitalfox>*sold and used
18:28<Prof_Frink>For example, I have a Vista Business license
18:28<Rubidium>Digitalfox: how do you determine whether a license is used?
18:29<Digitalfox>Because of activations
18:29<Rubidium>Digitalfox: that's already done at the factory where they come from
18:29<Digitalfox>and HAL used in activation
18:29<Digitalfox>no it isnt Rubidium
18:29<Rubidium>it was for my laptop
18:30<Prof_Frink>I can't let you do that, Dave.
18:30<Gonozal_VIII>new pcs come activated
18:30<Digitalfox>My notebook didn't
18:30<Prof_Frink>My Thinkpad never booted Winders
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18:35<CIA-5>OpenTTD: bjarni * r11929 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp:
18:35<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix (r9981)[FS#1624]: [autoreplace] fixed a case where a single headed locomotive caused an assert when being replaced to a dualheaded one
18:35<CIA-5>OpenTTD: This triggered if the player had enough money to replace and refit one of them but not enough to refit the last one as well
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18:40<Johnmit>may have found a bug in beta3...
18:40<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: I had fun all evening debugging this one. It caused an assert somewhere else and the code where the assert triggered appeared to be bug free (it still does)
18:40<@Bjarni>Johnmit: explain
18:41<Johnmit>telling ottd to add aircraft with shared orders to an aircraft group causes the game to crash
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18:41<Johnmit>beta3, macosx, happens in newgame
18:42<Rubidium>IIRC it's already fixed
18:42<Johnmit>search didn't turn anything up...
18:42<Johnmit>(although it wasn't a very thorough one ;) )
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18:50<Johnmit>is that a please don't file a bug report?
18:50<@Bjarni>are you asking for our bug tracking system or ?
18:51<Rubidium>Johnmit: it's a, please check the nightly before thinking about reporting it at the bugtracker
18:51<Gonozal_VIII>well, if rubidium writes it's already fixed, it most likely is
18:51<Johnmit>on leopard, nightlies don't work...
18:52<Prof_Frink>Get a gibbon!
18:52<@Bjarni>that issue again :/
18:52<Johnmit>(or they didn't a few weeks ago)
18:53<Johnmit>in the middle of exams so not exactly up to date...
18:53<@Bjarni>I only learned about it this week
18:53<@Bjarni>because somebody else told me
18:53<@Bjarni>if you noticed it weeks ago then why didn't you report it?
18:53<Johnmit>nightlies not working on leopard?
18:54<ln->Johnmit: use the PPC version
18:54<@Bjarni>I have a hard time figuring out something like that on my own
18:54<Johnmit>because i found topics on tt-f describing the problem so thought it was well known...
18:54<@Bjarni>because I don't have Leopard
18:54<@Bjarni>and I tend to compile myself
18:55<@Bjarni>now it turns out that I missed this on the forum and nobody pointed me to it...
18:55<Prof_Frink>I knew it! Bjarni is a bot!
18:56<Johnmit>maybe 'a few weeks ago' is a little bit of an understatement Bjarni
18:56<Gonozal_VIII>the fact that he missed stuff is proof of his botificism?
18:57-!-SirkoZ [] has joined #openttd
18:58<@Bjarni>it would appear so
18:58<@Bjarni>according to Prof_Frink it's not allowed to live in real life and not read everything on the forum
18:58<SirkoZ>Hi! How could I increase the station length and train length the old AI uses? Is it ai_rail.h in /table
18:59<Gonozal_VIII>oh noes, ai
18:59<@Bjarni>if that is true then Prof_Frink wants to live in a virtual world and in this virtual world I'm the operator and he is not :p
18:59<Johnmit>my knowledge of nightlies is currently based on start of xmas holidays
18:59<Johnmit>haven't really kept uptodate - apologies if that caused any distress...
19:00<Gonozal_VIII>it did, now go sit in a corner and feel ashamed
19:00<@Bjarni>nightly builds are still broken on Leopard (intel only)
19:00<Johnmit>after wednesday i can do some proper testing
19:01<Johnmit>as that is when exams finish
19:01<Johnmit>anyway, im going to bed - good night all
19:02<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Nonono, it was referring to the fact that you "compile yourself"
19:02-!-SirkoZ [] has left #openttd []
19:03<Phoenix_the_II>is anyone willing to look at my savegame why my main line is so much stalling every train on it?
19:03-!-Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:04<@Bjarni>Prof_Frink: damn.... please keep it a secret
19:04-!-Johnmit [~John@] has quit [Quit: Going, Going...... Go]
19:04<@Bjarni>it's supposed to be top secret that I'm a coding bot that can even recode myself
19:05<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Yeah, last time I angered software it sent killer robots from the future to kill my mum
19:05-!-GT [] has joined #openttd
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19:05<@Bjarni>now that's just cruel
19:05<@Bjarni>how do you get food now?
19:05<Prof_Frink>It didn't succeed
19:06<Gonozal_VIII>that's their plan... starve him to death
19:06<@Bjarni>you have some crappy software
19:06<@Bjarni>I'm even more cruel than that
19:06<@Bjarni>I can make bad blocks on your HD
19:06*Prof_Frink keeps schtum.
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19:08<Gonozal_VIII>wtf is schtum
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19:16<dih>how are you?
19:19<Sogard>I can't believe after playing Open TTD for so long I never knew about the whole, Ctrl + Drag a signal to autosignal an entire line of track.
19:20<dih>i cannot beleive people play for so long and never read the wiki
19:21<Sogard>I've read it plenty, even about signals
19:21<Sogard>But I just never noticed that one I guess.
19:21<Sogard>The wiki taught me pre-signals
19:21<Sogard>and yay for those.
19:22-!-ben_goodger [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
19:23<Sogard>The Wiki says nothing about using the ctrl + drag
19:23<Sogard>under signals
19:25<Sogard>even under the tutorial section
19:27<Sogard>mabey i can finally contribute something ;v
19:30<dih>there is a page on 'hidden <something>'
19:30<dih>or at least along those lines
19:30<ln->Bjarni: hmm, how to listen to window resize events in Cocoa?
19:31<ln->and how to keep the size of a component inside the window equal to that of the window?
19:32<@Bjarni>those are good questions
19:32<@Bjarni>so good so I think can tell you
19:32<Gonozal_VIII>100% :-)
19:33<Gonozal_VIII>i know, it's not html... but did you try with %?^^
19:34<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: it's objective C
19:36-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:36<Sogard>ohh ok, yeah dih its on the hidden features page
19:36-!-GT [] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.5 :]
19:36<Sogard>but it seems its only 0.6 so far
19:36<Sogard>not in the latest stable
19:36<dih>yep - that sounds right
19:36<Gonozal_VIII>latest stable is like 1000 years old
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19:38<dih>you mean 'revs' :-P
19:39<Gonozal_VIII>feels like years :P
19:40<dih>are you trying to imply that the devs work too slow for your liking? :-P
19:41<Gonozal_VIII>more like the opposite, so much happened since the last stable that it's kind of stone age tech^^
19:41<ln->Bjarni: how do i get NSView's parent?
19:44<@Bjarni>I'm not a hardcore objC coder :(
19:44<dih>call the grandparents and ask for their kids
19:44<@Bjarni> <-- wtf
19:44<@Bjarni>patented the IDEA of replacing part of a video with a still image....
19:45<@Bjarni>sounds a bit like the patent on hyperlinks
19:46<ln->[self window] probably
19:46<dih>windows has a patent on ctrl+z = undo
19:46<dih>sorry - ms has the patent
19:47<dih>windows does not even have fresh air :-P
19:47<Gonozal_VIII>open windows provide fresh air!
19:48<UnderBuilder>I wanna see a city building game based on the [o]ttd interface
19:49<@Bjarni>I wanna see users who only states reasonable feature requests
19:49<Gonozal_VIII>didn't you already write that 23424523 times?
19:49<dih>lol Bjarni :-)
19:49<dih>i was waiting for something along those lines to pop up :-P
19:49<UnderBuilder>I wanna see less criticals in the world
19:49<dih>then you need to visit another channel
19:49<@Bjarni>critical what?
19:50<UnderBuilder>criticals = people that critize
19:50<@Bjarni>I ask for people to be realistic
19:50<@Bjarni>is that a bad thing?
19:51<Gonozal_VIII>yes, yes it is
19:51<dih>UnderBuilder: visit #UnderBuildersWorld
19:51-!-Gonozal_VIII was kicked from #openttd by Bjarni [wrong answer]
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19:51<@Bjarni>is it a bad thing?
19:51<Gonozal_VIII>no, no it isn't
19:51<UnderBuilder>too many people post realistic suggestion
19:51<UnderBuilder>I don't understand what do you mean with realistic
19:52<@Bjarni>UnderBuilder: as you can see I have the support of this channel in questioning your urge to request odd stuff
19:52<dih>Bjarni: what do you think of people with power abusing the power they have to make others say what they want to hear?
19:52<@Bjarni>they can't make me change my opinion
19:53<Gonozal_VIII>people shouldn't abuse power to make other people say what they want
19:53-!-dih was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [I think it's bad to abuse my power :)]
19:53-!-dih [] has joined #openttd
19:53<Gonozal_VIII>hehe i thought i would get kicked again now^^
19:53<dih>using a poor bot to do the dirty work is nasty ^^
19:54<@Bjarni>ohh well
19:54<@Bjarni>couldn't help it
19:54<+glx>well I could have use @op
19:54<dih>yes - i can understand
19:54<+glx>but it's easier for me to type !kick and let my script talk to the bot
19:55<dih>i can understand that something in live can make a person feel low enough - which in turn could make them beleive appearing powerful could possibly solve the issue :-D
19:55<@Bjarni>dih: now two people claims to have kicked you.... then who should you trust :P
19:55<UnderBuilder>I said that in support of the players playing as cities suggestion
19:55<dih>UnderBuilder - you are offtopic :-P
19:55-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:56<dih>Bjarni: i'll just look it up in the logs ^^
19:56<@Bjarni>[01:53:24] <-- DorpsGek has kicked dih from #openttd (I think it's bad to abuse my power :)) <-- this is what the log says
19:57<UnderBuilder>instead of having a city simulation proyect inside of ottd, make it a separate game where you play as one of the cities in a ottd's server
19:57<@Bjarni>UnderBuilder: join #someonewhocares
19:57<@Bjarni>and talk about it
19:57<murray>or tell it to my carebot:
19:58<ln->UnderBuilder: the cities are too small to be interesting to play.
19:58<dih>i thought someone would have at least had the decensy to say @kick publicly
19:58<Gonozal_VIII>wow, i'm op there^^
19:58<dih>kick yourself ^^
19:59<Gonozal_VIII>[01:58:51] *** Auto-rejoining #someonewhocares due to kick...
19:59<@Bjarni> --- yourself :No such nick/channel
19:59<Gonozal_VIII>that bugger rejoins!
19:59<Gonozal_VIII>have to ban him
19:59<@Bjarni>reminds me of MeusH
19:59<@Bjarni>while maintaining the wiki he gave himself a 5 minute ban to test it
19:59<@Bjarni>it worked
19:59<@Bjarni>for 5 minutes
19:59<Gonozal_VIII>hehe, now i banned myself^^
19:59<@Bjarni>then it failed to disable
20:00<@Bjarni>then he waited to see if it disabled after 5 hours
20:00<@Bjarni>it didn't
20:00<@Bjarni>then he was screwed
20:00<@Bjarni>@seen MeusH
20:00<@DorpsGek>Bjarni: MeusH was last seen in #openttd 22 weeks, 4 days, 15 hours, 54 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <MeusH> hey Wolf01 :)
20:01<dih>i shall head to bed
20:01<@Bjarni>looks like he decreased his activity a bit
20:01<@Bjarni>dih: yeah you should
20:01<dih>i want to be able to do some more work tomorrow :-P
20:01<@Bjarni>but to be honest you will stay here
20:02<dih>why would i do that?
20:02<dih>well - you can tell me tomorrow ^^
20:04<@Bjarni>it's you
20:04<@Bjarni>and I'm here
20:04<@Bjarni>and it's IRC
20:04-!-fjb [] has joined #openttd
20:05<@Bjarni>and because of that too
20:05<dih>there - now you have fjb to comfort you :-)
20:05<@Bjarni>morning already?
20:05<@Bjarni>dih: you did it
20:05<fjb>Me? Comforting Bjarni? Never! :-)
20:05-!-dih [] has quit [Quit: (knock knock - gone to bed ^^ Bjarni loses)]
20:06<UnderBuilder> /mode kick-on-join dih Wow! You lose!
20:06*fjb wouldn't mind that mode.
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20:08<Phoenix_the_II>is there any site that explains a few heavy main lines construction examples?
20:09<Tefad>try openttdcoop's page
20:09<fjb>Depends what you are meaning with "heavy main lines" but it sounds like the openttdcoop people could help:
20:10*fjb prefers beautiful main lines.
20:12<Tefad>bbml? (opposed to bbw)
20:13<fjb>bb wgat?
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20:15<NukeBuster>Anyone interested in password at join?
20:15<fjb>Ah, the lazy people reminder. :-)
20:17<fjb>Setting a password is always the the first thing I do after joining a network game.
20:18<NukeBuster>I forgot once or twice, now i do not say I do not like to play together. But sometimes people just start deleting all trains... Thats a bit annoying
20:20<NukeBuster>Read this suggestion for the password prompt on the suggestions thread, thought it wouldn't be a very big change :)
20:20<fjb>Yes. People can ask you for the password and you can decide who is allowed to join you.
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20:22<fjb>I just had to buy the next nonprofid bus.
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>alright, that did not run like i wanted it to...
20:23<fjb>I need a better rating at a town. And there is no room for more wood.
20:24<NukeBuster>Busses are fun, but it takes a long time to get some nice profit...
20:24<+glx>fjb: remove trees and replant them
20:24<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: What didn't run?
20:24<fjb>glx: Removing trees makes my rating even bader, doesn't it?
20:25<Gonozal_VIII>there's a minimum
20:25<fjb>NukeBuster: I'm using the passenger destinations patch. No passneger transport makes profit without a big network.
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: reboot ;)
20:25<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Better reboot then.
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>more specifically, reboot after update
20:25<NukeBuster>The patch from prissi?
20:26<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: I wasn't at the minimum rating yet.
20:26<Gonozal_VIII>blow up every tree near the town
20:26<NukeBuster>I really like that in simutrans :) Have played it a short while in open, but support stopped for the patch
20:26<fjb>The patch from:
20:27<fjb>A bus usually keeps my rating high.
20:28<fjb>People in that town think they don't need a bus. :-(
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably a design flaw, local passengers should be much more common than long distance passengers
20:30<fjb>They are much more common.
20:31<fjb>The towns are just not big enough yet.
20:32<fjb>611 people is still kind of a village.
20:33-!-divo [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>right, but you might as well start out in a ~2k town ;)
20:35<Phoenix_the_II>Gah, now I got 4 lines in both directios
20:35<Phoenix_the_II>the trains still prefer to take only 1 line
20:35<fjb>But I need to build a line with a station at that town. :-)
20:36<Phoenix_the_II>and then they get to the station
20:36<Phoenix_the_II>and stack up
20:36<Phoenix_the_II>filling that 1 line
20:36<Phoenix_the_II>while the other lines are completely empty
20:36<fjb>Hm, make fewer but longer trains.
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20:37<Phoenix_the_II>they are already 20 to 40 in length :P
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>Phoenix_the_II: your setup is probably wrong...
20:37<Gonozal_VIII>most likely
20:37<Phoenix_the_II>but im wondering what ._.
20:38<Phoenix_the_II>anyone wanna have a quick look? :o
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>no, we should use our psychic powers to guess your layout
20:38<Phoenix_the_II>go guess :D
20:38<Phoenix_the_II>while i save
20:38<fjb>Physic power?
20:39<Phoenix_the_II>hit me
20:39<Gonozal_VIII>fjb, did your english somehow get "bader"?^^
20:40<Phoenix_the_II>look at the power plant in that save
20:40<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: My English never was really good.
20:40<Phoenix_the_II>and follow the line closest to the opposite direction lines
20:40<Phoenix_the_II>it's filled with trains, while the other lines are empty
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>can't run the game right now...
20:43<Gonozal_VIII>veeeery strange
20:43<Phoenix_the_II>did i properly setup the lines?
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20:44<Gonozal_VIII>you don't need a gazillion lines there
20:45<Phoenix_the_II>well, i cant even do a stable % at the coal mines :P
20:45<Phoenix_the_II>i want to put more trains on the track to handle the coal better
20:45<Phoenix_the_II>but the traffic just takes 1 line
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20:49<Phoenix_the_II>so no suggestions?
20:50<Phoenix_the_II>Gonozal_VIII? :o
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20:51<Phoenix_the_II>oh, your fixing something for me? :)
20:51*Phoenix_the_II bows
20:52<Gonozal_VIII>some trains are too long
20:52<Phoenix_the_II>these 40 cars ones?
20:53<Phoenix_the_II>only got 20 and 40's :P
20:53<Gonozal_VIII>platforms too short
20:53<Phoenix_the_II>my stations are 21 cell's long
20:53<Phoenix_the_II>40 car trains only take 20 cell's
20:58<fjb>And you are serializing the trains at the station exit, so you don't win much with the parallel tracks.
20:59<Phoenix_the_II>I'm used to building like this in TTDX :p
20:59<Phoenix_the_II>which was like 6 years ago for me
20:59<fjb>The same happens at the station entries. No two trains can leave or enter a station at the same time.
20:59<Phoenix_the_II>yea, probably presignalling error
21:00<fjb>No, all parallel tracks share one signal block at each end. And there can be only one train in any given signal block.
21:01<Phoenix_the_II>I meant, probably i made an error setting the signal up
21:02<fjb>And I'm counting more than 40 wagon on some trains. They cause truble.
21:03<fjb>The problem are the switches which are connecting the parallel tracks.
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21:04<Phoenix_the_II>before the bridges eh
21:04<Phoenix_the_II>yea, that one single block aswell
21:05<fjb>Yes, that serializes your trains because they have to pass that signal block one after the other.
21:05<fjb>And look at train 33. That one is longer than your stations.
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21:06<Phoenix_the_II>doesnt look on here
21:07<Phoenix_the_II>im counting 40 cars on that
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21:07<Phoenix_the_II>on a 21 cell station
21:07-!-Aerandir [] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.36 - -]
21:07<Phoenix_the_II>maybe we could start up a internet game...
21:08<Phoenix_the_II>and you show me a layout which doesnt serialize the trains? :)
21:08<fjb>I'm counting 47 wagons and 4 locomotions.
21:09<fjb>opennttdcoop has examples for station entry / exit like you need it.
21:09<fjb>I find just one big line a bit boring.
21:10<Phoenix_the_II>the plan was to extend to coal mines from the east aswell
21:10<Phoenix_the_II>+ using the farms at one point
21:10<Phoenix_the_II>to create a darn big station :P
21:11<fjb>But the world still looks a bit boring. Not my kind of game.
21:11<Phoenix_the_II>it's my first game since, 6 years
21:11<Phoenix_the_II>i made a quickie on my own
21:11<fjb>Maybe you should start not that big? Some more smaller lines would cause you less trouble.
21:11<Gonozal_VIII>i guess all those missing grfs don't do the game much good
21:12<Phoenix_the_II>i use openttdcoop's grf pack
21:12<Gonozal_VIII>the trains slow down to 14km/h as soon as they reach the slope
21:12<fjb>Maybe, but the world would stay that fllat even with the grfs.
21:13<Phoenix_the_II>I made that map in 30 minutes :/
21:13<Gonozal_VIII>ah, realistic acceleration is off
21:13<Phoenix_the_II>just figuring out how to make a big line work...
21:13<Phoenix_the_II>realistic accel = better? :o
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21:21<Phoenix_the_II>to be efficient i should just split the lines?
21:22<Phoenix_the_II>meaning only 1 line per 4 station slots?
21:23<fjb>That may help.
21:23<Phoenix_the_II>but from what i thought of pre signalling trains could run fine with huge stations/multiple lines
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21:26<Gonozal_VIII>that's pbs not presignals
21:27<Gonozal_VIII>i've split everything now
21:27<Phoenix_the_II>so i should use the path based signled?
21:27<Gonozal_VIII>still slow because loading and unloading takes ages with the too long trains
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>PBS are not implemented
21:29<Phoenix_the_II>oh :o
21:30<Gonozal_VIII>i also removed those bridges
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21:31-!-Netsplit <-> quits: Jortuny, Frostregen, DaleStan
21:31<Gonozal_VIII>well... i stopped now, boring game
21:32<Gonozal_VIII>no fun, nono
21:32-!-Netsplit over, joins: Jortuny, DaleStan, Frostregen
21:33<Phoenix_the_II>it was just doing a basic, without terraforming too much, big station with multiple lines
21:33<Gonozal_VIII>withoug terraforming too much?^^
21:33<Gonozal_VIII>did you see that map?^^
21:33-!-Jortuny [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:34<Phoenix_the_II>It just has a high hill
21:34<Phoenix_the_II>bit o water
21:34<Phoenix_the_II>and a big city
21:34<Phoenix_the_II>planted a few random towns/mines
21:35<Phoenix_the_II>and randomized the trees
21:35<Phoenix_the_II>and fired up this thing
21:39<fjb>It was terra formed in the scenery editor. :-)
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21:46<fjb>Hm, expanding a cheap single track line to a cheap double track line is difficult...
21:47<Gonozal_VIII>not really
21:48<fjb>The line is in use now and should be usable after the conversion.
21:49<Gonozal_VIII>single track meaning two way?
21:50<fjb>Yes, ofcourse.
21:50<Gonozal_VIII>then it's easy
21:50<Gekz>single track rail lines are Inuit for failfest.
21:50<Gonozal_VIII>build the other line... once it's ready change the signals, yay
21:50<fjb>I'm running the whole game with single rack lines so far. :-)
21:51<fjb>But there are crossings with other lines.
21:51<Gonozal_VIII>crossings are baaaaad
21:52<fjb>But they are needed.
21:52<fjb>A cheap line has to be used by many trains, else it becomes an expensive line.
21:52<Gonozal_VIII>junction for a lot of trains
21:53<fjb>No room for that junction.
21:53<fjb>I have to invent another solution.
21:53<fjb>Nice, but still no room for that.
21:54<Gonozal_VIII>that doesn't take much room...
21:54-!-Zahl [] has quit [Quit: Windows shutdown) ((~_~]"]
21:54<fjb>I should split it into junctions.
21:54<Gonozal_VIII>very flexible
21:55<fjb>I belive it is.
21:55<fjb>But I need something really small, easy and cheap.
21:55<Gonozal_VIII>trains can even turn around on it :-)
21:56<Gonozal_VIII> <-- easy and cheap, but only 3 sides
21:57<fjb>I that last one, I have already build it in some other games.
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22:11<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r11930 /trunk/src/intro_gui.cpp: -Codechange: a bit of code style application
22:25<Phoenix_the_II>i should've build it like this?
22:26<Gonozal_VIII>i don't like that style... but it works
22:26<Phoenix_the_II>it's ugly yes
22:26<Phoenix_the_II>looks like a bit of cheat style though
22:27<Phoenix_the_II>Gonozal_VIII, maybe make a internet game, show me a large tracks station?
22:28<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think i have the same version
22:28<Phoenix_the_II>i can make the same version
22:28<Phoenix_the_II>which you have?
22:28<Gonozal_VIII>i have 11929
22:29<Phoenix_the_II>gimme a min
22:29<Gonozal_VIII>11930 now
22:29<Phoenix_the_II>running *nix?
22:30<Phoenix_the_II>gotta setup the building tools then
22:30<Gonozal_VIII>managed to get that compile stuff working^^
22:30<Phoenix_the_II>2 secs
22:30<Phoenix_the_II>lemme build it on nix
22:30<Gonozal_VIII>i think i have beta 2 and 5.3 somewhere
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22:30<fjb>We tought Gonozal_VIII how to compile OpenTTD under Windows yesterday. Now he compiles after every commit.
22:31<Phoenix_the_II>neh don't waste your breath :D
22:31<Gonozal_VIII>not really^^
22:31<Phoenix_the_II>im used to compiling myself
22:31<Phoenix_the_II>on linux
22:32<Phoenix_the_II>checking out :)
22:33<Phoenix_the_II>cant build on nix for xp
22:34<Phoenix_the_II>configure: error: invalid option --os=WIN32
22:35<Phoenix_the_II>no big deal
22:35<Phoenix_the_II>i'll install the crap on windows
22:36<Gonozal_VIII>you don't have 0.5.3 or 0.6 beta 2?
22:36<Phoenix_the_II>beta 3
22:37<Gekz>BDL Limit: 0 B/s
22:37<Gonozal_VIII>got beta 3 now
22:37<Gekz>why did I paste that.
22:37<Phoenix_the_II>but i want nightly tooo :D
22:37<Gekz>better question is, how the hell did I do it
22:37<+glx>Phoenix_the_II: it is MINGW
22:37<Gonozal_VIII>strg v
22:38<ln->may i propose again an old patch?
22:39<+glx>do what you want ln-, I'm going to sleep anyway :)
22:39-!-glx [] has quit [Quit: bye]
22:39<Phoenix_the_II>gotta reboot for this SVN client
22:39<Phoenix_the_II>beta 03 it be
22:39<Phoenix_the_II>ok? :P
22:39<Gonozal_VIII>host :P
22:39<Phoenix_the_II>whatever you want :)
22:40<Gonozal_VIII>no grfsies
22:40<Phoenix_the_II>2 secs
22:42<Phoenix_the_II>#openttd phoenix
22:43<Gonozal_VIII>not there
22:43<Phoenix_the_II>errr the game name is that
22:43<Phoenix_the_II>? :O
22:44<Gonozal_VIII>the game name is "that" ?
22:44<Phoenix_the_II>"#openttd phoenix"
22:45<Phoenix_the_II>it aint on the list
22:45<Phoenix_the_II>add this IP
22:53<ln->i have a question about physiology. who wants to answer?
22:54<fjb>It is done, my not so cheap cheap duoble track line:
22:54<fjb>Nobody wants to answer, but feel free to ask anyway.
22:56<ln->ok. so.. as we know, people can easily eat hot food that burns hands. right?
22:56<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r11931 /trunk/src/intro_gui.cpp: -Codechange: enumify the widgets numbers. Give breathing room on the case switches too...
22:57<fjb>You burn your mouth it it is that hot...
22:57<ln->fjb: huh?
22:57<fjb>What happened to Belugas?
22:58<fjb>Oh, ok.
22:58<Belugas_Gone>good night
22:58<fjb>Good night.
22:58<ln->05:57 < fjb> You burn your mouth it it is that hot... <-- that is definitely not true.
22:59<fjb>ln-: I don't think you can really eat things the are over 50°C hot.
23:00<ln->i won't say anything about absolute temperatures, but certainly the mouth can tolerate a lot hotter temperatures than e.g. the hand.
23:00<fjb>Maybe 60°C. That depends, but somewhere around there it get too hot.
23:01<fjb>I don't think that is really true.
23:01<Gonozal_VIII>water has a high thermal capacity, there's lots of water in your mouth
23:01<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r11932 /trunk/src/intro_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Forgot two occurences of widget enumification
23:01<ln->try to eat or drink something that his hot, but doesn't burn your mouth. then try to dip your finger to the same substance for 10 seconds.
23:01<fjb>Your spit cools the food down a bit.
23:02-!-Greyscale is now known as Greysc[a]le
23:02<fjb>ln-: Measure the real temperature of yout test substance.
23:03<ln->what does the real temperature matter?
23:03<fjb>It is all that matters.
23:04<ln->ok, it's N celsius.
23:04<fjb>Your skin signals "too hot" somewhere not much abouve 50°C.
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23:05<Gonozal_VIII>everything above 40° can kill cells
23:05<ln->fjb: ok, i believe that. then?
23:05<fjb>Some parts of your skin are more protected than other parts, fingerns and soles of your feet have a bit thicker skin, and the skin of your mouth is a bit more protected by your spit.
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23:07<fjb>Your fingers are goot to measure the temperature of parts of your computer. If touching the parts hurts that parts get too hot. :-)
23:07<ln->the 0.5 mm layer of spit is negligible.
23:07<Gonozal_VIII>it's not
23:07<fjb>It really isn't negligible. Have you ever seen a snail go over a razor blade?
23:08<Gonozal_VIII>that's completely unrelated^^
23:08<fjb>Not really, it's skin is also protected by very few fluid.
23:09<fjb>ln-: Dry your mouth and then try to eat something hot. Have fun...
23:10<ln->fjb: i think you are building a strawman with your argumentation.
23:10<fjb>And don't cheat be moving your test food around in your mouth, keep it in kontact with the same part of the skin of your mouth.
23:11<fjb>ln-: Just try it out. And measure the real temperature of your test food.
23:12<ln->the real temperature does not matter at all here.
23:12<fjb>What temperature does matter? The temperature that you think that something might have?
23:13<ln->my claim was -- and is -- that people can easily eat hot food that would burn their hands. the details of whether that is the result of spit is irrelevant. the numerical value of the temperature is irrelevant.
23:14<fjb>You have never burnt your mouth?
23:14<ln->sure i have. and?
23:15<fjb>Make your fingers hot and touch the hot food only for a very short moment. You can really easily do that. You can even touch thinks that way that would definitely burn your mouth.
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23:17<ln->maybe. does that contradict with my claim?
23:17<fjb>Yes, it does. It shows that you can easily touch things that would burn your mouth.
23:19<ln->so is my claim "people can easily eat hot food that would burn their hands" true or not in your opinion?
23:19<fjb>It is not true.
23:20<ln->so you are saying that people cannot easily eat hot food if it is burning their hands?
23:21<ln->that's simply not true. try it some time.
23:21<fjb>You can easily eat foot that you can easily hold in your fingers.
23:22<ln->of course.
23:22<fjb>YOu can eat food with difficulty that you can hold in your fingers with difficulty.
23:23<fjb>Your opinion wins over proven science?
23:24<ln->you are proving this by stating some absolute temperatures?
23:24<fjb>Yes. The temperature that destroys the cells of you skin.
23:25<fjb>About 50°C is the limit.
23:25<fjb>But only for a short time.
23:25<ln->think about the hot meatball on your dish that you took out from the microwave oven. it will burn your fingers if you touch it, but use the fork and it'll only feel appropriately warm in your mouth.
23:26<fjb>Maybe if you are smoking regularly...
23:27<Diabolic-Angel>I'm just drinking a tee. I can easily drink it, but if I stick my finger into it, it hurts
23:27<ln->well i've smoked twice, about 5 years ago, and not a full cigarette either time.
23:27<ln->Diabolic-Angel: my point exactly.
23:29<fjb>That only works if the tea is in your mouth only for a very short time.
23:29<Diabolic-Angel>thought so too, but just tested it
23:30<Diabolic-Angel>Different parts of the skin have a different accuracy when it is to feeling temperature. They are different in feeling at all. Just think about how painfull it were if your ass is as sensible as your fingertips
23:36<ln->there is of course a temperature above which the food/drink will burn the mouth, too, but that's noticeably higher than the finger-burning temperature.
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 20 00:00:14 2008