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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-01-23

---Logopened Wed Jan 23 00:00:40 2008
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01:49<SquireJames>hello gentlemen
01:49<SquireJames>this is more of a OTTD subject, so, i'll post her here
01:49<SquireJames>i've done some NFO before but, typically, i've sort of forgotten how
01:50<SquireJames>essentially, I just want to tweak UKRS so that certain trains and the early carriages and waggons are purchasable in 1900
01:51<Gonozal_VIII>00 00 in the date available thing is 1920... earlier dates are in that long format date thingy (not that i am a pro with grfs or something^^)
01:51<SquireJames>which collumn is the date in?
01:52<Gonozal_VIII>action 2A
01:52<SquireJames>I did have an example NFO that showed each collumn with an arrow indicating what action was what
01:52<SquireJames>Do you have that handy?
01:53<Gonozal_VIII>grf2html is great for looking what does what in a grf
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01:54<SquireJames>well, okay, id rather learn it "native"
01:54<Gonozal_VIII>it is almost
01:55<SquireJames>basically, from what I understand notepad converts certain things into characters rather than native hex
01:55<Gonozal_VIII>with descriptions
01:55<SquireJames>and theres some setting or some program somewhere that opens it without this conversion
01:55<Gonozal_VIII>the hex in the grf are characters
01:55<Gonozal_VIII>normal 1-F
01:55<SquireJames>423 * 14 02 00 FA 81 0C 00 FF 01 "¡ÿ##ÿ" 00
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01:55<Gonozal_VIII>ah that
01:55<SquireJames>:) Yes, that
01:56<SquireJames>I have forgotten how to turn it off
01:56<SquireJames>the last time I did NFO was, oooh. 2003/04
01:56<Gonozal_VIII>you can write strings between " " and they get converted to hex by the grfcodec
01:56<Gonozal_VIII>author wrote it that way ;-)
01:56<SquireJames>made a Bulleid Leader Class, worked nicely but since then, eek
01:56<SquireJames>ah, yes, that, how do i do that exactly?
01:57<DaleStan><Gonozal_VIII> action 2A <-- action 2A is not defined.
01:57<SquireJames>you'll have to go more basic ith me i am afraid
01:57<SquireJames>i have made a batch to convert grfs for me
01:57<Gonozal_VIII>ok sorry
01:57<Gonozal_VIII>not action 2A
01:57<DaleStan>That would be a property, not an action. There's enough troubles when we do keep to the correct names.
01:58<Gonozal_VIII>action 00, property 2A
01:58<SquireJames>grfcodec -d pb_ukrs.grf
01:58<SquireJames>so where do I define the string to be converted to hex?
01:58<DaleStan>grfcodec -?
01:58<Gonozal_VIII>i have a .bat for that too :-)
01:58<Gonozal_VIII>same line
01:58<SquireJames>its a batch file that runs grfcodec, and decodes pb_ukrs.grf
01:58<Gonozal_VIII>you don't, it's automagically
01:59<SquireJames>:) then we are in the same wavelength
01:59<DaleStan>Or renum -? (and its readmes), if you want more control over what gets hexified and what gets stringified.
01:59<SquireJames>okees, so, how do I make it keep names (0-4-0T Saddle Tank for example) and convert those were y##y things to hex
02:00<DaleStan>grfcodec can't do that. NFORenum can, though.
02:00<SquireJames>sorry if i sound thick, I just forget things easily
02:00<SquireJames>im used to working with more advanced (i.e easier to work with) coding, like in ST Armada
02:00<Gonozal_VIII>hehe me too
02:00<SquireJames>once i have it thought, i'll write it down!
02:01<Gonozal_VIII>armada 2 :-)
02:01<SquireJames>(indeed i am in the final stages of releasing my A2 Total Conversion as we speak, but I digress)
02:01<Gonozal_VIII>hehe, did that too
02:01<SquireJames>So, to get Verrrrrrrrry basic, I have extracted the UKRS nfo
02:02<DaleStan>I seriously doubt that ST:A is more advanced that than NFO. The only thing NFO is missing for Turing completeness is infinite memory.
02:02<SquireJames>well, not advanced in that sense
02:02<SquireJames>whats the term, higher level
02:02<SquireJames>its a simpler language for us, more complex for the computer
02:03<SquireJames>NFO is lower level, closer to assembler, than the bastardised C++ that Armada uses
02:04<SquireJames>So, i've extracted the NFO, and i have found my first victim, the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank
02:04<SquireJames>the name is a little weird, its called "60-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" so, not sure where the 6 comes from as it doesn't show it but anyways
02:05<Gonozal_VIII>leave the 6 there when you rename it
02:05<SquireJames>Well, i'm not renaming her, and i discovered that when I edited the name of the 2-6-4T Tank
02:05<Gonozal_VIII>it depends to something else, shouldn't have been stringified... many strings have that for some reason
02:06<SquireJames>so, from that name there, which collumn and line refers to action 00 property 2A
02:06<SquireJames>(or whatever it is that does intro date)
02:06<Gonozal_VIII>obviously the action 00 :-)
02:06<Gonozal_VIII>that's usually a very long line
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02:06<SquireJames>Heres line 1, as it were
02:06<SquireJames> 426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 "60-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
02:07<Gonozal_VIII>04 is more like 04
02:08<Gonozal_VIII>426 * 31
02:08<Gonozal_VIII> 0 <-- line, length, action type
02:08<SquireJames>okay so thats Action 00 property 4?
02:09<Gonozal_VIII>action 4
02:09<SquireJames>i've read that page, but i can't make much sense of it
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02:09<SquireJames>I dont understand where the actions are in relation to actual code (where they begin and end in that line i posted)
02:10<DaleStan>The first byte is essentially always the action number.
02:10<Gonozal_VIII>something is weird with the formatting of the line you pasted, when i try to copy that it messes up
02:10<SquireJames>well, thts what i mean, I can't remember how to unfudge it
02:11<Gonozal_VIII>it begins with the action number and ends with newline...
02:11<DaleStan>Occasionally you'll run into something that looks like an action 0, but parses poorly and is 257 bytes long; those are not action 0s. Occasionally you'll run into things that look like actions FE and FF; those are not, strictly speaking, actions.
02:12<SquireJames>what do i need to alter my batch to say to extract it so it makes more sense
02:12<Gonozal_VIII>makes more sense?
02:12<SquireJames>well you said the line is screwy
02:13<SquireJames>and as we identified, it sometimes extracts things as y##y or other such gibberish
02:13<Gonozal_VIII>no, only the formatting somehow
02:13<DaleStan>It copies fine here; I'd guess the Gonozal_VIII's client doesn't like tabs.
02:13<Gonozal_VIII>aaah tabs
02:13<Gonozal_VIII><Sprite-number> * <Length> 04 <feature> <language-id> <num-ent> <offset> <text>
02:13<Gonozal_VIII>and that's how you read it
02:14<SquireJames>ah i see
02:14<DaleStan>SquireJames: You need to run NFORenum too. With the proper argument(s) to -b. The definition of "proper" depends on your personal preferences.
02:14<SquireJames>running NFORenum will make it easier to understand, as rookie?
02:14<LA[lord]>DaleStan: What does -b do?.. hmm.. I probably should go and check it out myself :P^^
02:15<Gonozal_VIII>all i did with renum so far is drag nfos onto it without any params^^
02:15<LA[lord]>me too
02:16<LA[lord]>I think I have missed some interesting features then..
02:16<SquireJames>So DaleStan, after i've run GRFCodec and decoded it (like I have now)
02:16<SquireJames>I run the nfo through NFORenum, with a batch also?
02:17<DaleStan>Or you could do it manually, but yes.
02:17<SquireJames>okay, (again sorry for seeming stupid) so, what ideally should the batch say/
02:18<DaleStan>renum -b <something> [-b <something else> [...]] grfnamewithoutextension
02:19<DaleStan><something> and <something else> are subject to personal preference.
02:19<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't get that^^
02:20<SquireJames>so for example
02:20<SquireJames>renum -b <rob1> [-b <rob2> [...]] pb_ukrs
02:21<LA[lord]>renum -b arandomfile.nfo somethingnew.nfo
02:21<SquireJames>ah i see
02:21<LA[lord]>and the end is somthig I don't use
02:21<SquireJames>where randomfile is my existing nfo
02:21<LA[lord]>and new file is the file it writes
02:22<DaleStan>And again no; -b requires a different sort of argument; square braces indicate something optional.
02:22<Gonozal_VIII>ah... i just let it overwrite :-)
02:22<LA[lord]>if you don't provide newfile, it'll overwrite the randomfile.nfo but creates randomfile.nfo.bak too
02:22<LA[lord]>ok @ DaleStan
02:22<DaleStan>For me, I'd probably use renum -b setcookie=686031254 PlaneSet
02:23<Gonozal_VIII>cookie in a grf?
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02:24<SquireJames>missing or invalid argument to beautify command?
02:25<DaleStan>Then you typed something wrong. Or you failed to read the documentation.
02:25*Gonozal_VIII hides
02:25<SquireJames>renum -b pb_ukrs pb_ukrsRob
02:26<SquireJames>even when i add .nfo to the ends, still says the same
02:26<DaleStan>I spent quite a bit of time documenting how @@BEAUTIFY works, and quite a bit more documenting the link between -b and @@BEAUTIFY.
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02:27<LA[lord]>so documentation is a good place to start ^^
02:27<SquireJames>okay, bugger the bats, I just dragged and dropped
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02:27<DaleStan>It's all there. Some is hiding in the doc folder, and other parts are hiding behind the magical -?
02:28<SquireJames>and, well, it created a new folder in my user directory called .renum
02:28<SquireJames>with a lot of pretty dats in it
02:28<LA[lord]>hmm.. DaleStan, I just compiled nforenum in linux and it works... Therefore I can now make grfs in linux too :)
02:29<DaleStan>The documentation does, I believe, cover the the .renum folder too.
02:29<SquireJames>however, i've just ran my comparision program on the pb_ukrs.nfo, and the bak it made
02:30<SquireJames>and apart from lines saying //!!Warning (170): Default result cannot be reached. its the same
02:30<DaleStan>That would be because you failed to engage the beautifier. How to do so is covered ... *gasp* in the documentation.
02:31<SquireJames>which is *gasp* where
02:31<DaleStan><DaleStan> Some is hiding in the doc folder, and other parts are hiding behind the magical -?
02:33<SquireJames>renum -b pb_ukrs.nfo ukrsRob.nfo
02:33<SquireJames>will that work
02:33<LA[lord]>-b need options too
02:33<LA[lord]>the ones DaleStan pointed out in []
02:34<SquireJames><DaleStan> For me, I'd probably use renum -b setcookie=686031254 PlaneSet
02:34<SquireJames>I just changed the name of his files from setcookie thingy to pb_ukrs and PlaneSet to ukrsRob
02:34<Gonozal_VIII>cookies taste good :-)
02:34<SquireJames>so, if thats what DaleStan uses, should work?
02:35<SquireJames>and yet, not, since it complains that the beautify command isn't working again
02:36<LA[lord]>SquireJames: I for one am not sure of this.. But to be sure, I would read /docs/COMMANDS.en.txt
02:36<Gonozal_VIII>i guess it's renum -b optional stuff ukrsRob
02:36<Gonozal_VIII>but i shouldn't guess
02:36<SquireJames>renum -b+ pb_ukrs.nfo ukrsRob.nfo
02:36<LA[lord]>why +?
02:36<DaleStan>But "setcookie thingy" isn't a file.
02:36<SquireJames>(hazarding a guess since the docs say that -b+ turns on the beautifier)
02:37<SquireJames>This allows, for example, -l- to turn the linter off,
02:37<SquireJames>or -b+ to turn the beautifier on.
02:37*LA[lord] hides
02:37<SquireJames>righty ho
02:37<SquireJames>that seems to have worked
02:37<DaleStan>+ is indeed one of the myrads of things acceptable as an argument to -b.
02:38<SquireJames>good, okay so the NFO has changed
02:38<SquireJames>it now reads as that first line (first line applicable to the Saddle Tank)
02:38<SquireJames> 426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 36 "0-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
02:39<SquireJames>the square thingy is a tab id wager
02:40<Gonozal_VIII>so the 6 is outside the "" now
02:40<SquireJames>sooo, now we have codey that makes sense
02:40<SquireJames>(and the y##y has become A1 FF 23 23 FF which is gorgeous, wonderful hex
02:41<SquireJames>so, which little chunk is the action that controls introduction date
02:41<SquireJames>i'd hazard a guess at 1F 01 36 but id probably be very wrong
02:41<Gonozal_VIII>nothing from there as that's an action 4
02:42<SquireJames>next line perhaps?
02:42<Rubidium>SquireJames: you're better off by starting to read the whole NewGRF spec to understand what the different actions do
02:42<Gonozal_VIII>could be anywhere in the file
02:42<SquireJames>i've tried Rubidium, i can't make sense of it
02:42<SquireJames>i did have a file that had commented headers telling me which was what
02:42<Gonozal_VIII>use grf2html, then you'll find the right line much easier
02:43<Rubidium>for example, action 4s can be defined almost anywhere in the file and do not need to be right in front (or behind) the code that handles the vehicle/industry/whatever related to the introduced string
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02:43<SquireJames>it says, and i quote in the wiki
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02:43<SquireJames>03 B vehicle life in years
02:43<SquireJames>so, where is 03 B?
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02:44<Gonozal_VIII>in the html you can search for something related to that engine... like the engineid or the hp or anything and you'll know which line it is
02:44<DaleStan>*facepalm* What is the header for the column with the "B"?
02:44<Gonozal_VIII>that's how long a vehicle lasts before it needs replacement
02:45<Rubidium>and what does the rest of the page tell you about the meaning of "vehicle life"?
02:45<LA[lord]>hmm.. IIRC he said about action04.. not action0
02:45<SquireJames>ah, indeed Gonozal indeed
02:45<SquireJames>okees, so, vehicle introduction
02:45<SquireJames>00 W date of introduction
02:45<SquireJames>hmm, where is that i wonder
02:46<DaleStan>Also in the action 0.
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02:46<Gonozal_VIII>i told you, use grf2html and search for the right line there :P
02:46<SquireJames>and where is the action 0 in that line
02:46<DaleStan>In which line?
02:46<Gonozal_VIII>it's a different line anywhere in the grf
02:47<LA[lord]>SquireJames: Every action is different sprite
02:47<Gonozal_VIII>grf2html parses the action 0 to a table with data in it, much easier to find it that way
02:48<SquireJames>So, with that in mind, how do I, or infact how does the game know which action belongs to which vehicle if this curious Action 00 can be on any line anywhere else in the nfo?
02:48<SquireJames>there has to be some rhyme or reason to it
02:48<Gonozal_VIII>vehicle id
02:48<LA[lord]>look at action0 specs.. <Sprite-number> * <Length> 00 <Feature> <Num-props> <Num-info> <Id> (<Property <New-info>)...
02:49<LA[lord]>Sprite-numberAction 0 can appear anywhere in the GRF file, so set it to the sprite number you are currently at.
02:49<LA[lord]>I could copy-paste everything from there, but I guess it's easier if you looked up it yourself
02:49<SquireJames>so in the line 426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 36 "0-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
02:49<SquireJames>sprite number is 426?
02:49<Gonozal_VIII>that only defines the string
02:49<LA[lord]>426 is sprite number
02:49<SquireJames>length is 31, and so forth
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02:50<SquireJames>good, getting somewhere, okee
02:50<LA[lord]>lenght is how many bytes are after the lenght thing in that sprite
02:50<SquireJames>so, i need to find another line with 426 as the sprite number, to find the action 00?
02:50<LA[lord]>04 is action 4
02:50<SquireJames>since sprite number is how it references isnt it?
02:50<Gonozal_VIII>there's only one line with same sprite number
02:50<SquireJames>oh sorry vehicle id
02:51<SquireJames>right hmm
02:51<LA[lord]>you are looking at wrong action
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02:51<LA[lord]>action04 defines new names
02:51<Gonozal_VIII>there's no vehicle id in that line
02:51<LA[lord]>not properties
02:51<SquireJames>well i gathered that, but that was the only way to find where to start looking
02:51<Gonozal_VIII>that line doesn't help you in any way to find the right action 0
02:51<SquireJames>from that line down, it looks like this
02:51<SquireJames> 426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 36 "0-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
02:51<SquireJames> 427 * 22 00 00 08 01 36 12 FD 00 00 00 02 10 03 1C 04 28 05 00 06 03 1A 00
02:51<SquireJames> 428 * 22 00 00 07 01 36 08 00 0D 2F 0E 30 4C 00 00 17 07 19 00 14 00 21 03
02:51<SquireJames> 429 * 15 00 00 04 01 36 09 38 00 16 19 0B 5E 01 1F 53
02:51<SquireJames> 430 * 4 01 00 07 08
02:52<SquireJames>after that it just references the pcx so that must be the part that says what the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank looks like
02:52<LA[lord]>other are action 0s
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02:52<LA[lord]>3 ones
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02:52<LA[lord]>then comes action01
02:52<SquireJames>ah, indicated by the leading 00 right?
02:53<SquireJames>04 00 1f etc = action 04
02:53<DaleStan><DaleStan> The first byte is essentially always the action number.
02:53<SquireJames>00 00 08 is an action 00, and so forth
02:53<SquireJames>ah, okay, now im getting somewhere
02:53<SquireJames>so the first byte, as DaleStan says is the action number
02:53<Gonozal_VIII>and why exactly do you keep ignoring me telling you to use grf2html?
02:53<SquireJames>now, what is the second byte
02:54<Gonozal_VIII>depends on action
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02:54<SquireJames>(im not ignoring you, i am reading the documentation for it)
02:54<SquireJames>(having trouble getting her to work)
02:54<LA[lord]>ok.. I'm getting like DaleStan.. read specs
02:54<Gonozal_VIII>no need for documentation, drag the .grf onto it
02:54<DaleStan>Whatever the documentation for that action says it is.
02:54<SquireJames>o've tried tht Gonozal, it blinks up real quick then produces nothing
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02:55<Gonozal_VIII>no dir with html inside?
02:55<SquireJames>nope, i drag the pb_urks.nfo over the program, it blinks up a dos window, then does nothing
02:55<Gonozal_VIII>drag the .grf onto it <-- did i write .nfo?
02:56<SquireJames>anyways, so, action 00 word length is the year of introduction
02:56<DaleStan>property 00.
02:56<SquireJames>so , action 00 property 00 is year of introduction
02:56<SquireJames>right, so, the second byte is the property?
02:57<SquireJames>so, 00 00 is action00 property 00?
02:57<LA[lord]>says feature 00 not prop
02:58-!-dih|away is now known as dih
02:58<SquireJames>ah so
02:58<SquireJames>00 00 is action00 feature 00 (trains)
02:59<Gonozal_VIII>drag pb_urks.grf onto grf2html.exe and look at the result :P
02:59<SquireJames>i'll try that after Gonozal, im getting somehere now
02:59<SquireJames>soo, with that in mind
02:59<Gonozal_VIII>everything you ask is described there!
03:00<LA[lord]>Gonozal_VIII is right..
03:00<SquireJames>08 is properties to change
03:00<SquireJames>01 is vehicle ID
03:00<LA[lord]><Num-props> B How many properties you would like to change per vehicle or station
03:00<LA[lord]>so how many props, not the property
03:01<SquireJames>oh yes, sorry
03:01<SquireJames>prsumably thats 08 because we are changing long format date (word length)?
03:01<LA[lord]><Num-info> B How many vehicles/stations you would like to change
03:02<LA[lord]>so it should be 01 I guess..
03:03<SquireJames>well, as i've posted, the lines i have are
03:03<SquireJames>426 * 31 04 00 1F 01 36 "0-4-0 Saddle Tank (Steam)" 00
03:03<SquireJames> 427 * 22 00 00 08 01 36 12 FD 00 00 00 02 10 03 1C 04 28 05 00 06 03 1A 00
03:03<SquireJames> 428 * 22 00 00 07 01 36 08 00 0D 2F 0E 30 4C 00 00 17 07 19 00 14 00 21 03
03:03<SquireJames> 429 * 15 00 00 04 01 36 09 38 00 16 19 0B 5E 01 1F 53
03:03<SquireJames> 430 * 4 01 00 07 08
03:03<Gonozal_VIII>you have lots of more lines
03:04<SquireJames>so the first Action00 changes 08 properties
03:04<SquireJames>the second, 07 and the third 04?
03:04<Gonozal_VIII>those don't have to be the ones belonging to that action 4 string
03:05<SquireJames>right, so where do we find date (2A) in this mess
03:05<LA[lord]>Gonozal_VIII: I think he has ignored the action4 for now.. good :P
03:05<SquireJames>I simply use 04 to find the name of the loco so i knew where to start looking :P
03:05<Gonozal_VIII>but he wants to change the 0-4-0 saddle tank
03:05<SquireJames>I know that simply effected the name
03:05<SquireJames>I believe the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank has a current start date of 1903
03:06<Gonozal_VIII>that has some random in it
03:07<SquireJames>according to grf2xml
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03:08<SquireJames>line 427 is indeed the right line
03:08<SquireJames>and the date is set to 0x000 (0) but wouldnt that be 1920?
03:09<Gonozal_VIII>not sure about that 00 00, could be something like "whenever the game starts"
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03:09<Gonozal_VIII>or not
03:09<SquireJames>ah correction, my mistake
03:10<SquireJames>the 0-4-0 is set to appear in 1919
03:10<LA[lord]>arghh.. I can't find 2a there,..
03:10<SquireJames>so, that woould be close as damn it to 1920
03:10<shodan>hey, i've got a problem with the latest beta, when it starts up I'm giving a couple of conf warnings
03:10<Gonozal_VIII>00 00 is 1920, yes...
03:10<shodan>anyone know how to fix it? I couldn't see an answer on the wiki last night
03:10<LA[lord]>shodan: what warnings?
03:10<Gonozal_VIII>conf warnings?
03:11<LA[lord]>what was the one you updated from?
03:11<Gonozal_VIII>something like trailing characters?
03:11<shodan>ini: trailing characters at end of setting 'advanced_vehicle_list'
03:11<shodan>also 'loading_indicators'
03:11<LA[lord]>remove the offending line from cfg
03:11<Gonozal_VIII>changed from true/false to 0,1,2
03:11<shodan>0 false, 1 true, 2... ?
03:12<Gonozal_VIII>check the settings
03:12<SquireJames>hmm, I can't find the tram locomotive on there which is weird
03:12<Gonozal_VIII>something like none, only for player, for all
03:12<LA[lord]>I believe that's show cometitior's loading .. the 2
03:12<LA[lord]>SquireJames: Where?
03:12<shodan>ahh ta guys
03:12<SquireJames>In the converted html
03:13<SquireJames>although, i have found the 4-4-0 which starts in 1902
03:13<Gonozal_VIII>trams are road vehicles
03:13<SquireJames>Not this one
03:13<SquireJames>tis an 0-6-0 Steam Tram, its a rail locomotive
03:13<SquireJames>confusing i know
03:13<SquireJames>anyway, forget the tram, I can use the 4-4-0
03:13<LA[lord]>wait.. the grf name is..? I'll decode it to see whatäs going on :D
03:14<SquireJames>heres the confusing part, both the 4-4-0 Express Locomotive and the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank have the date set as 0x000 (0)
03:14<SquireJames>buuut, the 4-4-0 Express Locomotive appears in 1902, the Saddle Tank not till 1919
03:14<Gonozal_VIII>wow, i have vehicles available in the 1870s
03:15<Gonozal_VIII>check the long format date
03:15<SquireJames>okay, where in the html is that
03:16<Gonozal_VIII>if it's not in the same table, it's not defined there
03:16<Gonozal_VIII>then maybe you have the wrong lines :-)
03:17<Gonozal_VIII>check stuff like hp and max speed
03:17<Gonozal_VIII>and you can sort the vehicles ingame by id... that could help too
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03:18<SquireJames>right well everything else checks out, the weight, hp, tractive effort etc
03:18<SquireJames>all matches ingame (have it open and paused)
03:19<SquireJames>would Miscellaneous Flags be anything to do with long format date
03:20<DaleStan>Does the documentation for Miscellaneous Flags say anything about long format date?
03:22<SquireJames>no, but i was checking since it was the only thing not clearly defined
03:22<SquireJames>i.e the power box hmm, might just be dealing with power
03:22<SquireJames>miscellaneous flags could be defined as anything, hence i was wondering if pikka somehow used it for Long Format Date
03:23<@peter1138>long format date is defined by the long format date field
03:23<@peter1138>if grf2html doesn't show that then it's out dated
03:23<@peter1138>(and i've never heard of it)
03:23<SquireJames>clearly it must be
03:24<DaleStan>peter1138 needs to lurk the TTDPatch Graphics forum, then.
03:24<SquireJames>so, back to the old NFO
03:24<Gonozal_VIII>grf2html shows long date format, if it's not there, it's just not there
03:25<Gonozal_VIII>maybe the date gets changed somewhere else
03:25<SquireJames>I cant personally find anything on the TTDPatchWiki that deals with Long Format Date
03:26<DaleStan>And the long format introduction date is very definitely in grf2html's output.
03:26<SquireJames>ah okays, must have missed that on the search
03:27<Gonozal_VIII>no need to search... click on action 0, click on trains, there it is
03:27<Gonozal_VIII>search for different lines with the same vehicle id
03:28<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11955 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11926): Prevent bridge and tunnel ends being placed on rivers.
03:28<LA[lord]>SquireJames: I really really suggest you to start with the tutorial.. It explains some basic things too which you seem not to know.. Really.. And I'm not being mean or anything. It's just difficult to explain, if I don't know what things need to be explained.. :)
03:29<SquireJames>Where does Vehicle ID lurk in the html Gonozal
03:29<Gonozal_VIII>the head of the table
03:29<DaleStan>Somewhere near the letters "ID", usually.
03:30*dih greets DaleStan
03:31<SquireJames>ah got it
03:31<SquireJames>0x12 "Sprite ID" 0xFD (253
03:31<Gonozal_VIII>not that
03:31<SquireJames>so, i nee to find more lines with the 253 Sprite ID right?
03:31<Gonozal_VIII>somehow all of them have sprite id 253^^
03:31<Gonozal_VIII>ID 0x00 (0)
03:31<Gonozal_VIII>something like that
03:32<Gonozal_VIII>next to property
03:32<Gonozal_VIII>first line in the table
03:32<SquireJames>thats odd
03:32<Gonozal_VIII>is not
03:32<SquireJames>no i mean this
03:32<SquireJames>Text 0x01 "0-6-0 Pannier Tank (Steam)"
03:32<SquireJames>#631 Action0 - Define Properties
03:32<SquireJames>Feature 0x00 "trains" Property ID 0x01 (1)
03:32<SquireJames>0x12 "Sprite ID" 0xFD (253)
03:33<SquireJames>but, the 4-4-0, the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank, and infact, all of em, have the same Sprite ID
03:33<SquireJames>but that cant be right
03:33<Gonozal_VIII>[09:31:43] Gonozal_VIII: somehow all of them have sprite id 253^^
03:33<DaleStan>Yes, it can.
03:33<DaleStan>Try reading the fine documentation.
03:33<SquireJames>Okay, so if they all have the same sprite ID
03:34<Gonozal_VIII>i guess that means something like last defined sprite bla
03:34<Gonozal_VIII>ID 0x01 (1) <-- that
03:34<SquireJames>I'll have to try Vehicle ID or something
03:37<@peter1138>it's not a sprite id
03:37<Gonozal_VIII>that's id 1, so if it's a complete set, you have vehicles never expire on, some late year like 2100 and sort the list of available vehicles by id, it's the second
03:37<@peter1138>it's an index into a table of sprite ids, heh
03:37<@peter1138>well, offset into
03:37<SquireJames>so the 0-4-0 Saddle tank would be id 54/
03:37<SquireJames>Property ID 0x36 (54
03:38<SquireJames>no thats not right either
03:38<SquireJames>since as you say the 0-4-0 is the first train sorted by ID
03:38<SquireJames>so it has to be 1
03:38<Gonozal_VIII>first is 0
03:38<SquireJames>okay, 0
03:38<SquireJames>either way its not 54!
03:38<Gonozal_VIII>ID 0x00 (0)
03:38<SquireJames>0x1A "sort the purchase list" 0x00 (0)
03:38<Gonozal_VIII>search for that
03:39<DaleStan>Except that not all IDs are necessarily available at any one time, and that the by ID sort likely obeys prop 1A.
03:39<Gonozal_VIII>prop 1a... why is that useful?
03:40<Gonozal_VIII>couldn't they just use the ids in the order they want them to be?
03:40<DaleStan>Not without changing all the old IDs, and breaking compatibility.
03:40<Gonozal_VIII>but the set replaces all...
03:41<@peter1138>1A was a bitch for doing the engine pool :)
03:41<DaleStan>But the set wasn't necessarily developed all at once.
03:41<@peter1138>Gonozal_VIII, backward compatibility with itself
03:41<Gonozal_VIII>ah i see...
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03:42<SquireJames>So, do we have more of a chance of finding this Long Date Format in the NFO than we do in the HTML/
03:42<Gonozal_VIII>no, you can just search for the text in the html
03:43<SquireJames>Well, I find nothing to seperate the introduction dates of the 0-4-0 Saddle Tank and the 4-4-0 express
03:43<DaleStan>*I* have an equally good chance of finding it in either. *You*, on the other hand, seem incapable of searching for "long" in the HTML, so the chances of you finding anything useful in either are slim.
03:43<SquireJames>even though they are ingame 17 years apart
03:44<Gonozal_VIII>search for "Long format introduction date" in the html
03:44<SquireJames>DaleStan, if you wish to change from helping me to insulting me, find someone else
03:45<Gonozal_VIII>and search for lines containing 0x00 (0)
03:45<SquireJames>#3993 Action0 - Define Properties
03:45<SquireJames>Feature 0x00 "trains" Property ID 0x00 (0)
03:45<SquireJames>0x2A "Long format introduction date" 0x000AA9C7 (698823)
03:45<DaleStan>SquireJames: If you wish to get useful help, READ THE SPEC. If you don't understand something there, ask about THE SPEC.
03:45<Gonozal_VIII>see, there you have it
03:45<SquireJames>i'd rather talk to a person than a piece of paper. If i get stuck, people can understand and help
03:46<SquireJames>well, except for yourself it seems, then again whether your a person is debatable
03:46<dih>people that understand and can help write those
03:46<dih>to not have to be asked every 5 mins
03:46<SquireJames>anyways, yes, I seem to have found it, so presumably 69882 converts to 1919
03:47<SquireJames>well, 69882 converts to a hexidecimal number, which is interpretted as 1919
03:47<SquireJames>69882 is something to do with number of days or something I presume
03:47<Gonozal_VIII>the hex is also there
03:47<Gonozal_VIII>000AA9C7 <-- hex
03:48<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11956 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp water_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#1675]: Disallow building locks and docks on rapids.
03:48<SquireJames>thought so
03:48<SquireJames>so, if 000AA9C7 is 1919
03:48<Gonozal_VIII>the bytes are the other way around in the nfo... endianness thing...
03:48<@peter1138>8:48... ops
03:48<dih>go peter1138 go
03:48<SquireJames>ah so in the NFO
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03:48<SquireJames>000AA9C7 would be C7 A9 A0 OO ?
03:49<Tefad>four digits of hex cannot be larger than 65535
03:49<Gonozal_VIII>look at line 3993
03:49<Rubidium>SquireJames: better 'just' used \w<decimal number>
03:49<Rubidium>or there might even be a year-month-day thingy, but I don't know whether that outputs 'long dates'
03:49<Gonozal_VIII>tefad, it's 8 digits of hex
03:50<SquireJames> 3370 * 14 02 00 03 82 B4 00 FF 01 02 00 00 05 11 00
03:50<Tefad>hm i'm so confused
03:50<SquireJames>ah scratch that
03:50<Tefad>between character encoding, base conversions...
03:50<SquireJames>sorry wrong line, going by lines in the document
03:50<Gonozal_VIII>hint: it starts with 3993
03:50<SquireJames>3993 * 10 00 00 01 01 00 2A C7 A9 0A 00
03:51<SquireJames>well my program lists the line of the document (line 1 for example) first
03:51<SquireJames>hence I misread it
03:51<Gonozal_VIII>[09:48:50] SquireJames: 000AA9C7 would be C7 A9 A0 OO ? <-- see... it's right there
03:51<SquireJames>ah ha, I see it :)
03:52<SquireJames>so, changing that to another already defined number (i,e i want it to appear in 1902, same as the 4-4-0 is easy
03:52<Gonozal_VIII>but 00, not OO^^
03:52<SquireJames>(yes, sorry syntax mistake there)
03:52<SquireJames>how does one define, for example, 1885
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03:52<Gonozal_VIII>i guess just removing that line could do the trick
03:53<SquireJames>well according to the wiki
03:53<Gonozal_VIII>if you meant 1920, not 1902...
03:54<SquireJames>701265 is 1920, and we have discovered that 698823 is 1919
03:54<SquireJames>no, the 4-4-0 appears in 1902
03:54<SquireJames>so, i find the Long format date that references the 4-4-0
03:54<SquireJames>and copy the date over to the Saddle Tank
03:55<SquireJames>but, i don't want either of them to appear in 1902, to be precise i want the saddle tank to appear in 1903, when the first Hunslet 0-4-0 was made, and i want the 4-4-0 to date back prior to 1900
03:56<SquireJames>so, if 701265 is 1920, and 698823 is 1919
03:56<SquireJames>the difference between them is 2442
03:56<Gonozal_VIII>0x000A7051 (684113) that's 1873
03:56<SquireJames>question then, how does one know what number is what year
03:56<DaleStan>If I thought it would do any good, I'd point out that the spec contains interesting information about how to type dates and get them automatically converted into the correct numbers.
03:57<LA[lord]>694595 is about 1903
03:57<Gonozal_VIII>Set the vehicle introduction date, in days since the year 0
03:57<Gonozal_VIII>calculate :P
03:57<SquireJames>ah i see
03:57<SquireJames>I thought it might be something like that
03:57<LA[lord]>because there are 364 days in year.. it's somewhat inaccurae
03:57<SquireJames>so, long format date uses year 0 as a start point
03:57<SquireJames>whereas normal format uses 1920?
03:58<SquireJames>well, according to the wiki, its usually number of days since 1920
03:58<SquireJames>ah good, finally i grasp something
03:58<LA[lord]>and long format is number of days from 0 ?
03:58<LA[lord]>year 0*
03:59<LA[lord]>Long format introduction date (2A)Set the vehicle introduction date, in days since the year 0.
04:00<Gonozal_VIII>it's all documented in the link i posted earlier :P
04:00<SquireJames>so, technically, if you set the 0-4-0 to appear in 389090 it would appear intime for the Battle of Hastings :)
04:00<SquireJames>but one must convert 389090 to hex first
04:00<Gonozal_VIII>and turn it around
04:00<SquireJames>(and it assumes you can set the game that far back but i digress)
04:00<LA[lord]>btw 694595 is a9943 in hex -> 43 99 0a 00
04:00<SquireJames>ah yes, indeed
04:01<SquireJames>but hex conversion is relatively easy using the calculator right
04:01<SquireJames>just enter your number and then hit hex
04:01<Gonozal_VIII>you can start the game in year 0
04:01<LA[lord]>that's what I did :P
04:01<SquireJames>(if my lessons in hexidecimal serve me right)
04:01<SquireJames>hehe, interesting but youd need one hell of a vehicle set!
04:02<Gonozal_VIII>guys that carry stuff on their backs^^
04:02<SquireJames>Well, its been a pet project of mine to slide the game back to 1870 something
04:03<Gonozal_VIII>serbian rail set starts in 1873
04:03<SquireJames>with a number of trains, a horse drawn tram and omnibus, some clipper ships and early steamers
04:03<SquireJames>well, i would use that but im not Serbian ;)
04:03<Gonozal_VIII>ships are problematic without engine pool
04:03<Gonozal_VIII>only 11 of them...
04:03<SquireJames>i'd rather have me Stirling Singles :)
04:04<SquireJames>heres a more advanced, theoretical question
04:04<LA[lord]>"guys that carry stuff on their backs^^" >> slaves
04:04<LA[lord]>top speed 5 km/h
04:04<SquireJames>ive heard its possible to configure grfs so, for example, the same train built in 1945 would have different stats to the one identical built in 1925
04:04<SquireJames>using date based changes along the same lines as livery changes
04:04<Gonozal_VIII>first engine in the serbian set has top speed 16 km/h :-)
04:05<LA[lord]>SquireJames: It's controlled by action7/9
04:05<SquireJames>so, with this in mind
04:05<DaleStan>LA[lord]: No, it's not.
04:05<Gonozal_VIII>action 2 i think
04:06<SquireJames>would it not be possible to have a single sailing ship, and have it change at certain dates into one with new graphics (as per livery change) and new stats
04:06<SquireJames>getting around the 11 ship rule?
04:06<SquireJames>so, yes you couldn't build a Tea Clipper in 1930 because the Tea Clipper has changed into a Steam, Steel Hulled Cargo Freighter
04:06<LA[lord]>DaleStan: action7/9 to skip the sprites if certain year I meant..
04:07<LA[lord]>and have another set for differnet years
04:07<DaleStan>But that's not how trains with different stats in different build years are done.
04:07<SquireJames>through date and livery changes. Even if the name didn't change, you could atleast just call it "Cargo Ship"
04:07<SquireJames>I know that
04:07<SquireJames>I just heard talk of it
04:07<LA[lord]>but you can do it, can't you.. just have to reload grfs :P
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04:07<SquireJames>and wondered if it were possible to kind of, roll over unused sprite ids with this idea
04:08<SquireJames>so, say for example, by 1980 you don't let the player build 0-4-0 Hunslets any more
04:08<SquireJames>that id could be, using the grf date based changes, into a Diesel Shunter
04:08<@peter1138>sprite ids are not a problem
04:09<SquireJames>well, vehicle ids, sorry
04:09<Gonozal_VIII>the idea is not bad but that nice guy that just joined is working on something better^^
04:09<LA[lord]>better use peter1138's 'Engine pools' patch
04:09<DaleStan>LA[lord]: Not unless you want all vehicles to get the new stats in 1945.
04:09<SquireJames>(I get confused)
04:09<LA[lord]>DaleStan: Have I stated something opposite?
04:09<DaleStan>If you want just the vehicles that built after 1945 to get new stats, then you can't use 7/9.
04:09<LA[lord]>all trains get repaired
04:09<SquireJames>well, if theres something better being made then good :) It was just an idea that bounced around in my head since i heard it was possible
04:10<SquireJames>actually, 7/9 could be used to "refit" locos automatically
04:10<DaleStan>You use action 2, like Gonozal_VIII said.
04:10<SquireJames>for example, removing the streamlining from Merchant Navies
04:10<LA[lord]>DaleStan: Useless arguing ^^
04:10<SquireJames>or automatically changing A1 4-6-2s into A3 in 1945
04:11<@peter1138>action 7/9 cannot be used to change things dynamically
04:11<LA[lord]>have to reload grfs
04:11<SquireJames>Well, from what i have read, it applies to all vehicles of that type based on date
04:11<SquireJames>so, for example
04:11<LA[lord]>but that can be covered in readme ^^
04:11<SquireJames>if i made a hunslet change to a paxman in 1945
04:11<DaleStan>But there are ways that don't require reloading the grf. So why no use those ways instead?
04:11<SquireJames>then in 1945 all hunslets magically change to paxmans
04:11<SquireJames>not just those built after 1945
04:12<LA[lord]>because action2 chains are confuzing me?
04:12<SquireJames>Obviously not good
04:12<DaleStan>Ok, then: So why not learn those ways instead?
04:12<SquireJames>but, that same functionality would be very good for forced refits, like I said, simulating the conversion of A1s to A3s or perhaps uprating the engines on a Class 47
04:13<@peter1138>forced :o
04:13<LA[lord]>because I have no sprites to work on.. and I'm too lazy to draw some louzy sprites to learn complex action02 .. ^^
04:13<SquireJames>With UKRS I have to sell my Merchant Navies and buy a whole new one to remove the Streamlining in 1963
04:14<SquireJames>not very economical or realistic
04:14<SquireJames>well, then it gives me bsically a whole new engine
04:14<Gonozal_VIII>just use different colored rectangles and see if you can get it to build a slow blue rectangle in 1920 and a fast red rectangle in 1950 from the same id (or something like that)^^
04:14<SquireJames>i'd rather have the same locomotive (i.e it was built in 1943 and still says it was built in 1943 even after being rebuilt in 1953)
04:15<LA[lord]>I don't like ugly things Gonozal_VIII.. You can see that from my avatar @ tt-fporums ^^
04:15<SquireJames>just rebuilding the engine (as they did with the Merchant Navys) didn't really extend their lifespan
04:15<SquireJames>not like selling a new engine and buying a new one does
04:15<SquireJames>See what i'm getting at?
04:16<LA[lord]>and learning action2 would certainly need some help.. I don't like asking helpp very much either ^^
04:16<LA[lord]>SquireJames: Autoreplace.. Train goes to depot -> is "rebuilded" -> leaves depot
04:17<@peter1138>that's autorenew
04:17<LA[lord]>still the same
04:18<SquireJames>but would that reset the lifespan of the locomotive?
04:19<@peter1138>yeah, that's the point of autorenew, heh
04:19<Gonozal_VIII>of course it does, it's a completely new engine
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04:19<SquireJames>well thats not what im talking about
04:19<SquireJames>the Merchant Navys were "rebuilt" but all that entailed really was a change of the drive system and removing the cladding
04:19<LA[lord]>DaleStan: To finish off.. I need some very good reason to start learning Action02 and it's variational things.. Really. Atm I can handle everything I need with actionD, ActionA, Action8, Action7/9 and sometimes Action0's..
04:20<@peter1138>you want the merchant navy to automatically lose its streamlining
04:20<SquireJames>the boilers and so forth were the same
04:20<LA[lord]>and Action04
04:20<SquireJames>buuut, retain its lifespan
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04:20<SquireJames>so, even after the streamlining is removed in 1963, it still says the Locomotive was built in 1943
04:20<@peter1138>well, ask pikka to implement it. i don't see why though
04:21<Gonozal_VIII>that would suck big time, as the reliability would be around 0% and breakdowns all the time
04:21<SquireJames>it doesn't magically give me a brand new shiney Merchant Navy in 1963, it gives me a clapped out "Rebuilt" Merchant Navy with only a few years left on the clock, as per real life
04:21<SquireJames>hehe Gonozal, thats pretty much what happened to them
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04:22<SquireJames>although, perhaps with the rebuilt (unstreamlined) version, you could boost the reliability, to simulate the repair and change of the drive trains
04:22<Gonozal_VIII>and you pay full prize for autorenew, it's not like you get that for free
04:22<SquireJames>BR was cheap, and the Merchant Navys broke down alot, so they changed the drive change system, took off the troublesome cladding
04:23<SquireJames>and it helped to extend their lives a little
04:23-!-dih|away is now known as dih
04:23<SquireJames>not brand new engines, but helped to fix a few reliability issues
04:23<SquireJames>with a small reliability boost through the grf, along with an automatic change of sprite at the same time, that effect could be achieved
04:23<@peter1138>what was the point of this discussion again?
04:24<SquireJames>hehe, sorry, got side tracked
04:24<SquireJames>Just to check my hex, since its been two years since i dabbled in it
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04:24<SquireJames>1903*365 = 694595
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04:25<Gonozal_VIII>i guess you could change the sprites and the vehicle life....
04:25<SquireJames>which according to the calculator is A9943 in hex, and thats formated as A9 94 30 right
04:25<@peter1138>leap years & the like
04:25<yorick>peter1138: I think locks could be built on rapids
04:25<yorick>I think they should
04:25<@peter1138>30 94 A9 00
04:25<SquireJames>well, when its done backwards for NFO yes
04:26<@peter1138>well you always just remove the rapids first, heh
04:26<SquireJames>so, add trailing (or in this case leading) 0s
04:26<@peter1138>but locks are usually not built on top of rapids
04:26<SquireJames>So A9943 = A99430 = 00 A9 94 30 = 30 94 A9 00
04:27<@peter1138>where did the extra 0 come from
04:27<@peter1138>A9943 = 00 0A 99 43 == 43 99 0A 00
04:27<SquireJames>ah forgot, 0s go in front not behind
04:28<@peter1138>well yes
04:28<yorick>building a canal with a lock next to it looks soo strange
04:28<@peter1138>10 is not 100 is it...
04:28<SquireJames>so A9943 = 0A9943 = 00 0A 99 43
04:28*yorick gotta install something
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04:28<LA[lord]>== 43 99 aA 00
04:28<SquireJames>As I said, the last time I dabbled with hex was two years ago
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04:29<SquireJames>yes LA[lord] because of the sorting system
04:29<LA[lord]>I know it ^^
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04:30<SquireJames>:) its coming back, slowly
04:30<SquireJames>i must have gone soft modding Armada2
04:31<LA[lord]>hmm.. I gotta draw something now.. with paper and pencil :D
04:31<Gonozal_VIII>additional 0s in front and not at the back has nothing to do with hex, same in decimal and binary ;-)
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04:33<SquireJames>well indeed, i just forgot
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04:44<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11957 /trunk/src/ (rail.cpp road.cpp): -Codechange [FS#1678]: Minor simplification and optimisation when checking for available road/rail types (bilbo)
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05:22<Gussoh>if configure says "WARNING: no video driver found, building dedicated only". What should I install?
05:22<@peter1138>what OS?
05:22<Gussoh>great, thanks!
05:24<Gussoh>peter1138: it worked, thank you
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05:38<Gussoh>Is i normal to have red questionmarks instead of shorelines? =D
05:38<Gussoh>looks as if i am missing a texture.. :/
05:39<Gekz>yes it doess
05:39<Gussoh>ah "Your 'OPENTTDW.GRF' file is corrupted or missing! The file was part of"
05:39<Gussoh>good message :D
05:40<Gussoh>now it works :D
05:40<@peter1138>i'm not sure how people get that, as it comes with the source and binaries...
05:41<Gussoh>i had a zipfile of the datafiles from an old version of openttd.
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05:42<Gussoh>I think it would have been much better if the original files should be located in a separate folder
05:42<Gussoh>not mixed in with the new ones
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05:44<@peter1138>they are
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05:44<@peter1138>put the original data files in a global place
05:44<@peter1138>put your newgrfs in .openttd/data
05:44<@peter1138>and leave the game grfs in bin/data
05:44<Gussoh>okay. where is the "global place"?
05:45<@peter1138>dbg: [misc] /usr/local/share/games/openttd/ added as search path
05:45<@peter1138>for me
05:45<@peter1138>run openttd -d misc=4 and check the first few lines
05:45<@peter1138>unfortunately you get a ton of other spam too :(
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05:46<SquireJames>right, wows, I have just about got to grips with this
05:46<Gussoh>okay, that would work for me. but my friends run as user :/
05:47<SquireJames>so now, the 0-6-0 Tram, the 4-4-0 Express, and the 0-6-0 Freight along with all the early carriages/waggons appear in 1899
05:47<@peter1138>well if they're compiling it then it can be set via configure
05:47<SquireJames>and the 0-4-0 Saddle tank appears in 1903
05:47<Gussoh>peter1138: haha, just the compileing-part is way to difficult already :) but ofcourse. there are always solutions
05:47<@peter1138>but, run as user -- no access at all to the global path?
05:48<Gussoh>no, we use the computers as school
05:48<@peter1138>ah well
05:48<@peter1138>norty :)
05:48<@peter1138>in my day, anyway
05:49<@peter1138>in that case you can put the original data in ~/.openttd/data
05:49<Gussoh>Id really like it so search in data/original/ or something like that. that would be very easy for me _D:
05:50<Gussoh>strange keyboard, sorry
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05:50<@peter1138>all search paths are used, so they can be in any of them
05:51<Gussoh>but i doesn't search recursive, does it?
05:51<Gussoh>it even
05:53<@peter1138>newgrfs can be in subdirectories though
05:53<Gussoh>yeah, i have a subdir for them. that is very good
05:54<Gussoh>one thing i would like about newgrf is if there were any "compilations" of newgrfs that works with each other. like a list of newgrf that enables some new industries and new cargos and new vehicles.
05:55<yorick>PBI and UKRS?
05:55<Gussoh>it is very hard to put together a working set of newgrf. you have to know what each of them conatins and what depends onwhat
05:55<LA[lord]>most station sets work with eachother
05:56<Gussoh>but i always get problems with being unable to transport some cargos
05:56<LA[lord]>I think coop games have a long list of grfs which they use.. and whihc work with eachother
05:56<Gussoh>no, thats the problem
05:56<Gussoh>i copied their list
05:57<Gussoh>but they just have lists of ALL the grfs they use
05:57<Gussoh>so you are able to join a game
05:57<Gussoh>so the server decides which of them to use
05:57<LA[lord]>nope.. they have cfg file up somewhere too (wait a mom)
05:57<LA[lord]>of current game
05:57<Gussoh>that would be really greay
05:58<Gussoh>when we start games today we start with manually copying a list of grfs by searching for servers and listing the grfs used
06:00<Gussoh>another great feature would be if openttd downloaded the grf:s automatically also :) that would be very good
06:01<Gussoh>and it cant be too hard, can it? :D
06:03<LA[lord]>hmm.. can't find the cfg atm..
06:03<Gussoh>LA[lord]: ok, thank you anyway
06:10<yorick>Gussoh: some copyright issues
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06:54<SmatZ>uptime 1234:19 ... whoo, 1234:56 soon :)
06:56<blathijs>The other way around is cool too
06:57<blathijs>9 years, 87 days, 65 hours, 43 minutes, 21 seconds
06:57<blathijs>Though 65 hours might pose a problem :-)
06:58<SmatZ>:) 9 years would be a problem for me too :(
06:58<Gekz>i'll be dead in 9 years
06:59<Gekz>heath ledger commeration ceremony.
07:01<SmatZ>Gekz: you will die because of upcoming commeration ceremony?
07:01<Gekz>i am the ceremonyh
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07:35<SmatZ> and new :)
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07:47<@peter1138>that's only 20 days...
07:47<@peter1138> 12:47:52 up 1162 days, 16:12, 1 user, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.08
07:48<SmatZ>20 days is a lot for me :)
07:51<blathijs>peter1138: That's quite a lot... :-0
08:01<Digitalfox>1162 days o_O.... What OS do you have?
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08:04<Gekz>peter1138: you dont use xorg xD
08:05<Gekz>peter1138: print uname -a here
08:05<@peter1138>not on servers, no
08:05<@peter1138>not that xorg gives me problems
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08:06<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r11958 /trunk/src/ai/trolly/build.cpp: -Fix (r11204): NewAI couldn't build any road vehicles when there were any tram grfs loaded
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08:12<yorick>is there any progress on NoAI?
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08:13<yorick>truelight was the main developer on it
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08:15*yorick randomly points finger on dev list
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08:16<yorick>belugas: do you know who's working on the NoAI branch?
08:16<Digitalfox>yorick: I think no one.. But you could learn how it works and code some AI's :)
08:17<yorick>I'm already doing that
08:17<yorick>I think rubidium is doing the most for it now
08:18<yorick>last was 13 days ago
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08:19<Digitalfox>yorick: A user who done some NewAI's was Zuu
08:19<yorick>I have been learning squirrel the past few days
08:19<Digitalfox>But if you're looking for a DEV i supose Rubidium will be your best bet
08:21<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11959 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 3 dirs):
08:21<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Use macro to loop for specific engine types instead of using specific indexes each time.
08:21<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Minor scope changes in said loops.
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause3>wtf are "indexes"?
08:53<yorick>how do you mean?
08:53<Eddi|zuHause3>shouldn't those be "indices"?
08:53<ln->alternative spelling for "indices"
08:58<Gekz>indexes is wrong
09:01<Gekz>oh man.
09:01<Gekz>i'll desex you all.
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09:11<@peter1138>indexes is correct
09:12<Gekz>peter1138: uname -a :)
09:12<@peter1138>it's not interesting
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09:15<Eddi|zuHause3>err... frosch123? i did not understand your reply
09:16<frosch123>Load the attached grf after alpine, and it should work.
09:17<@peter1138>the perils of default-on new features...
09:17<@peter1138>or rather, always-on
09:18<Eddi|zuHause3>appears to work
09:20<Gekz>peter1138: it interests me, atleast /msg it please :)
09:21<@peter1138>it's just a debian box, they all look the same anyway
09:21<Gekz>what kernelp
09:22<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd say he wants to try some kernel specific vulnerabilties ;)
09:23<Gekz>... no
09:23<Gekz>i'm wondering what kernel hes using that made it so stable
09:23<Gekz>probably 2.4.x
09:23<@peter1138>it's a stock debian 2.6 kernel
09:24<Gekz>debian 4.0r2?
09:24<@peter1138>how could that have been up for over 1000 days?
09:24<Gekz>2.6.18-686-5? :p
09:24<Gekz>you haxed uptime
09:26<@peter1138>OS installed 2004-11-11 14:43 UTC
09:26<@peter1138>last rebooted 2004-11-16 21:30 UTC
09:26<@peter1138>(timestamps of /var/log/debian-installer and /var/log/dmesg)
09:27<Gekz>thats why i wanna see your uname -a xD
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09:27<Gekz>Linux bbqsrc 2.6.23-1-686 #1 SMP Fri Dec 21 13:57:07 UTC 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
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09:28<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... indeed... leo says "index - pl. indexes, indices --- der Index - Pl. die Indizes"
09:29<Eddi|zuHause3>so it's something where german is more strict than english
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09:34*SpComb is approaching 300 days uptime
09:34<SpComb>I don't want to say how many days left because if I do, it's sure to go down on the second-to-last day or something
09:34<Eddi|zuHause3>i just made a new installation this saturday
09:35<Forked>I stopped caring about uptime the day I had 364 days uptime.. and my dad drilled a hole through a wall hitting the power cable on the other side
09:35<@peter1138>now that's a nice way to go, he
09:35<Gekz>Forked: is he dead now?
09:35<Korenn>did you dad go down with your system? ;)
09:35<SpComb>I don't care about uptime on my desktop, but this is a server that's now been running untouched in a corner of a room for a while now, so it's nice to try and keep its uptime up
09:35<Forked>Gekz: no, I stopped caring about uptime :p
09:36<SpComb>some time four months ago the box itself was moved from the cellar to the other side of the building on the first floor... but it has an UPS, so there wasn't any need to shut it down :P
09:36<Korenn>kernel updates > uptime!
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09:36<Forked>more hard drives > uptime ..
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09:36<SpComb>said box is also debian stable
09:36<Korenn>saving power while you're on vacation > uptime :P
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09:37<SpComb>and it doesn't do anything except run screen, irssi, a bunch of ssh processes, and unfortunately enough, apache/php/mysql
09:37<SpComb>I should probably get rid of those
09:37<SpComb>and a DNS server, so I guess it's not really that unloaded after all, meh
09:38*SpComb wouldn't have minded a physical box dedicated only to his irssi process
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09:42<Draakon>:S when i try to patch player.h file, svn says that there is no url for player.h
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09:44<Eddi|zuHause3>there is no player.h
09:44<Eddi|zuHause3>it's been split into player_*.h
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09:44<Eddi|zuHause3>where * in {base, face, func, gui, type}
09:45<yorick>use grep to see in wich file the edits must come
09:45<hylje>grep grep grep
09:45<hylje>search tool
09:46<Draakon>ok, found out
09:47<SpComb>terom@qmsk:/bin$ grep grep grep
09:47<SpComb>Binary file grep matches
09:47<hylje>chmod uga-x chmod
09:48<Eddi|zuHause3>haha :p
09:48*SpComb hands hylje a LiveCD
09:48<Sacro>or chattr ?
09:49<SpComb>or a short C tool that fixes chmod's chdmod
09:49<SpComb>gcc probably doesn't need chmod
09:49<Eddi|zuHause3>i have backups of my root partition, i probably wouldn't even need a live cd
09:49<SpComb>a LiveCD would be a far quicker fix to a broken chmod than doing a restore
09:49<Eddi|zuHause3>i mean not restore
09:50<SpComb>well, unless you can restore that one file quickly, and with the correct permissions
09:50<Eddi|zuHause3>but run the chmod in the backup ;)
09:50<SpComb>hmm, you could scp the chmod binary from another system over and then just run that
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09:52<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r11960 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: simplify some IsTunnel(Tile) / IsBridge(Tile) conditions
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09:56<Draakon>i like games more if they have their own game language not C++ :P
09:56<hylje>how does that relate to liking games
09:57<SpComb>their own game language?
09:57<Draakon>imo if a game has its own scripting languages its better to mod
09:57<hylje>scripting lang is another thing
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10:13<SpComb>Draakon: there's some kind of rule that custom scripting languages generally suck
10:14<SpComb>as opposed to embedding lua, python, etc
10:14<Draakon>what rule?
10:14<SpComb>a generalization
10:14<Dominik>AntB: thanks for the dstoolbar.grf! it's great for a start
10:14<dih>Draakon: get noai branch
10:15<SpComb>if a game has a custom scripting laugage that was written for that game, then that scripting language will, with high probablity, suck
10:15<dih>you can script your own ai's there :-)
10:15<yorick>I found out when learning squirrel for noai :P
10:15<yorick>squirrel generally sucks :)
10:15<AntB>nps dominik :D
10:15<Draakon>dih: i dont want to do that, just saying that scripting is better than C++
10:16<Draakon>SpComb: do you know Elders Scroll IV Oblivion?
10:17<Draakon>that game has a very good scripting support that it can run about 150(if it is that limit) so called, mission(feature) mods together with no conflicts at all
10:17<SpComb>and of course, the language that a game is implemented in is different from anything that it uses for scripting
10:17<SpComb>OpenTTD uses the console with .scr files or whatever they are for "scripting"
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10:18<dih>very very limited console / scripts
10:19<Draakon>SpComb: that games files can be modified anyway you want
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10:38<@DorpsGek>yorick: I have 5 registered users with 5 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.
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10:45<yorick>from stats page: Sacr0 wasn't very popular, getting kicked 73 times!
10:45<yorick>For example, like this:
10:45<yorick> *** SacrO was kicked by Bjarn1
10:45<yorick>Bjarn1 seemed to be hated too: 30 kicks were received.
10:45<yorick>(names distorted to avoid highlights)
10:45<+glx>known fact
10:46<ln->yorick: and to protect anonymity
10:46<yorick>14 glx "system.out.println("Bored :(");"
10:46<+glx>nice random quote
10:46<yorick>20 ln- "btw, does someone know where i could buy TTD?"
10:47-!-peter1138 [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
10:47<+glx>we were printing "Bored :(" in many languages
10:47<ln->i did eventually buy TTD, btw.
10:47<+glx>anyway my line doesn't compile
10:48<+glx>case is important in java
10:50<yorick>B3lugas was also very polite: 11 ops from him/her.
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10:50<yorick>Rub1d1um deoped 11 users.
10:51<+glx>lol usually they op/deop theirselves
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10:51<yorick>names distorted to protect anonimity
10:51<yorick>DorpsGek donated 33 ops in the channel...
10:51<yorick>DorpsGek is the channel sheriff with 22 deops.
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10:53<yorick>Bjarn1 is a very aggressive person. He/She attacked others 73 times.
10:53<yorick>For example, like this:
10:53<yorick> * Bjarn1 slaps hexeditor
10:53<yorick>d1h3dral can't control his/her aggressions, either. He picked on others 57 times.
10:53<hylje>yes yes
10:53<yorick>I'll stop flooding the channel with random facts now
10:54<yorick>talking about random things is DaleStan 's job
10:55<dih>yorick... dangerous lines you are spitting out :-P
10:55<DaleStan>You might attract undesirables.
10:57*peter1138 smirks at the "Electric trains' corner speeds again reduced in beta3" topic
10:57<yorick>he doesn't get its a bug that should be fixed long before
10:58<yorick>but because of some reason...wasn't
10:58<dih>there are people that dont get that it's not a bug because of newgrf indus closing down
10:58<dih>DaleStan could sing a song of that thread
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10:59<DaleStan>I wasn't aware that flamethrowers were usually very melodic.
11:02<dih>hello Belugas :-)
11:02<@Belugas>hello dih
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11:18<@Belugas>[11:03] <dih> there are people that dont get that it's not a bug because of newgrf indus closing down <-- yeah... and there are quite stuborn it. Wanting to have their views been the official one, without even considering what's happening nor why
11:18<@Belugas>and of course, not willing to work on proposed solutions :P
11:19<dih>dont you just need an @kick command for the channel 'earth' ?
11:20<@Belugas>mmhhh... nope
11:20<DaleStan>Ah. I thought that there was just something that made posts with NFO-related words/information fail to appear to the majority of the forum users.
11:20<@Belugas>i would be sanctionned for abusing it
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11:21<@Belugas>indeed DaleStan, indeed :)
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11:21<dih>hey Osai
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11:50<fjb>Why do not all foundations get replaced by a foundation replacement grf?
11:50<yorick>don't they?
11:50<hylje>foundation replacements might not have diagonal foundations
11:51<Eddi|zuHause3>what's an "afoon"?
11:51<fjb>Looks like nondiagonal foundations have that problem sometimes:
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11:52<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: I guess "good AFter nOON"
11:52<@Belugas>i'm guessing fjb says "morning" by shredding the word in smaller pieces. therefor, afternoon folowed the same pattern ;)
11:52<fjb>The tile with the houses in the upper middel of the picture.
11:53<fjb>Belugas: "Moin" is a nothern german greeting, used every time of a day.
11:53<frosch123>fjb: known bug
11:54<fjb>Belugas: But I think it is somehow related to the english word "morning".
11:54<yorick>"But the grf is not complete. The first 14 foundations are missing. They are not loaded by an Action5 but by an ActionA."
11:55<fjb>frosch123: Thank you. That explains it.
11:55<yorick>"Foundations with walls at both north edges must be replaced by an ActionA."
11:55<frosch123>no need to quote everything
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11:56<@Belugas>fjb, as i am not from nothern germany, i cannot guess
11:56<fjb>Belugas: I know you are not from germany, but I thought you were good at guessing. :-)
11:56<@Belugas>like i could say "Salut la gang" and pretty much nobody would understand...
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11:57<fjb>Belugas: I would understand it.
11:57-!-helb [~helb@] has joined #openttd
11:57<@Belugas>well.. i guessed, but not came up with the right meaning ;)
11:57<@Belugas>would or do?
11:57<fjb>Yes, I know enough french.
11:59<fjb>Are the missing foundation replacement sprites in the grf and only wrong coded or are the whole sprites missung?
11:59<+glx>Belugas: expression from your side only ;)
11:59<@Belugas>yup :)
12:01<frosch123>missing, but you can construct them from the other sprites, or use the ones of an old release, if you have some spare time :)
12:02<fjb>frosch123: Thank you. Sounds not hard to fix it.
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12:08<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r11961 /trunk/src/ (map.cpp map_func.h newgrf.cpp): -Feature[newGRF]: Add support for Action 0D, var 13: informations about current map size.
12:09<frosch123>Arghh! grf2html is outdated!
12:09<@Belugas>sorry :(
12:10<@Belugas>more to come >:)
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12:10<DaleStan>But it's not supported in TTDPatch ...
12:11<DaleStan>... yet.
12:11<SpComb>Logs: (old: )
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12:14<fjb>DaleStan: So OpenTTD at least invented one thing that MB didn't invent.
12:15<DaleStan>Well, MB doesn't do much that cares about the map size.
12:16<fjb>But he invented everything. At least he likes to tell that. :-)
12:17<@Belugas>doing the doc as we speak, DaleStan
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12:29<@Belugas>missing one thing
12:30*Belugas goes editing
12:30<Phoenix_the_II>ppl still play with ttdpatch?
12:30<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r11962 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: OPF is no longer used to update signals
12:30<DaleStan>Um... That was rhetorical, right?
12:31<yorick>yaay *O*
12:31<yorick>but SmatZ, what is used now?
12:31<Phoenix_the_II>DaleStan, half-half :p
12:31*AntB started playing patch about 2 weeks ago :P
12:31<SmatZ>yorick: there is signal.cpp since 11802
12:31<SmatZ>with faster and cleaner code...
12:32<SmatZ>no new functionality though
12:32<Phoenix_the_II>i mean, i don't know the difference anymore between openttd and ttdpatch
12:32<SmatZ>and more extensible :)
12:32<Phoenix_the_II>since im used to openttd now
12:33-!-yorick is now known as Yorick|AFK
12:33<@Belugas>Phoenix_the_II, that does not mean ttdp is dead. There are a lot of people who prefer ttdp over ottd
12:34-!-Diabolic-Angel [] has joined #openttd
12:34<Phoenix_the_II>but doesnt openttd have the advantages right now?
12:35-!-Diabolic-Angel [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:36<@Belugas>1) there is no competition
12:36<@Belugas>2) there are stuff that is better handled by ttdp
12:36<@Belugas>3) there are different features in both
12:36-!-Diabolic-Angel [] has joined #openttd
12:36<@Belugas>more, but it's enough for the point
12:37<Phoenix_the_II>ah :D
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12:37<DaleStan>PBS is a big sticking point for people considering the switch to Open.
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12:40<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r11963 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix(r11961): Forgot to specify the meaning of the magical 6 substraction
12:41*Belugas goes to dinner now
12:41<@Belugas>only 15 minutes left :(
12:41*Belugas cries
12:42<DaleStan>!? OHFSCK!! Missed that -6 in the patch, and therefore in Patch.
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12:43<@Belugas>i forgot to mention it in the doc, yes
12:43<@Belugas>it has been fixed now
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12:43<DaleStan>I looked at your patch, didn't see the -6, and coded Patch to report 01888810, not 01222204
12:44<@Belugas>when you asked me to confirm, i mentally calculated it without the -6, since i was (and still) am in a hurry
12:44<@Belugas>my fault
12:45<@Belugas>mention me if you wish in your commit log :(
12:45<@Belugas>that will eventually teach me
12:46<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r11964 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix [FS#1685]: Tropic zone data was returned incorrectly.
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12:46<@Belugas>bummer :(
12:46-!-peter1138 [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
12:50<SpComb>#define MAGICAL_SIX 6
12:53<@Belugas>DaleStan is too good, not a single mention of my fault, taking all the blame ;)
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13:10<fjb>Moin Wolf01
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13:24<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r11965 /trunk/src/pathfind.cpp: -Codechange: simplified tunnel/bridge code in TPFMode1
13:24<Gonozal_VIII>tpfmode1 :S
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13:28<Sacro>yorick: capitalising a nick doesn't stop it from highlighting
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13:49<dih>[19:35] -yorick- some kicked JJ, so the logs weren't updated for a while
13:49<dih>[19:36] -yorick- and one did that again
13:49<dih>[19:37] -yorick- stop making fun of me while I'm not there!
13:49<dih>i can do with my bot and in my channel as i wish
13:53-!-Camv [] has joined #openttd
13:54<Gonozal_VIII>that build and refit patch is great :D
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14:06<yorick>Sacro, yorick: capitalising a nick doesn't stop it from highlighting, how do you mean?
14:06<Sacro>yorick: hey
14:06<Sacro>yOrick: hey!
14:06<Sacro>[15:45] <yorick> *** SacrO was kicked by Bjarn1
14:06<yorick>I did y0rick
14:06<yorick>and Sacr0
14:07<yorick>at least I thought...
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14:31<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r11966 /trunk/src/pathfind.cpp:
14:31<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix: OPF was searching through depots and normal road stops
14:31<CIA-5>OpenTTD: In effect, it also fixes old AI bugs like FS#1403 and FS#1506
14:33<yorick>did they fix the search over other's tracks
14:34<SmatZ>rail doesn't search over others' track
14:35<SmatZ>for road it doesn't matter
14:35<SmatZ>or what do you mean?
14:38<yorick>dunno if it changed meanwhile, but some time ago, signals on others' tracks were handled as if they were on the owner of the connected track
14:39<@Belugas>you made a bug report? have you checked since?
14:39<yorick>I havent checked since
14:40<SmatZ>yorick: it was there a very very long time ago
14:41<yorick>it was in beta2
14:41<yorick>its fixed now
14:41-!-tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
14:42<SmatZ>when there is a crossing
14:42*yorick tried
14:42<SmatZ>OPF doesn't handle it well
14:42<SmatZ>is this the case?
14:43<yorick>it's not in beta3 anymore
14:43<yorick>when I reported it, it was "known"
14:43<yorick>and "fixing would require rewriting of OPF"
14:44<SmatZ>yeah, signals were propagated over crossing when the owner of tile next to crossing is different
14:44<SmatZ>yorick: is it at FS?
14:45<yorick>I reported it on irc
14:46<@Belugas>irc == bug oblivion zone
14:47<@Belugas>ARRRHHHGG... a BUG!!!! Close your eyes, run away!!!
14:47-!-AntB [] has quit [Quit: *poof!* I am gone -=- Using ChatZilla]
14:47<Forked>yeah thats a good combination :)
14:47-!-HUNRusty [] has joined #openttd
14:47<Forked>lets all close our eyes and run in random directions =p
14:47<SmatZ>hi HUNRusty
14:49*yorick looks at the world from underneath the stone he hid in when dih got mad at him
14:49<HUNRusty>has anyone some experience with suse 10.3 and scripts?
14:49<yorick>I think I hid under it
14:49<HUNRusty>i cant make my scripts work
14:49*yorick closes eyes and accidentally slams head agains stone
14:50<fjb>HUNRusty: Which shell are you using?
14:50<yorick>I think the ##linux channel would suit better for that question
14:51<HUNRusty>i run dedicated server from konsole
14:51<fjb>HUNRusty: The thing that is supposed to execute that script.
14:51<yorick>what's your problem?
14:51<yorick>fjb: called konsole
14:52<HUNRusty>on_server_connect doesnt work, i tried every place for scripts dir
14:52<fjb>yorick: konsole can not execute scripts. It has to run a shell to do that.
14:52<yorick>where did you install your data files?
14:53<yorick>try /usr/share/openttd/scripts :)
14:53<HUNRusty>i tried :)
14:53<HUNRusty>i tried /usr/bin/scripts/
14:54-!-tokai|noir [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:54<HUNRusty>and takind into my home folder's openttd folder too
14:54<yorick>where's your opentd.cfg?
14:55<HUNRusty>"/home/rusty/.openttd/" but it doesnt work here
14:56<yorick>you should know that there is no on_server_connect
14:56<yorick>try on_client.scr
14:57<HUNRusty>i read about it at wiki.openttd
14:58*yorick is going to paste big piece of txt
14:58<yorick>OpenTTD supports scripts.
14:58<yorick>local scripts:
14:58<yorick> - 'autoexec.scr' is executed on gamestart [all - use this for custom aliases per ex.]
14:58<yorick>+network scripts:
14:58<yorick> should be used to set client optimization settings:
14:58<yorick> - 'on_client.scr' is executed when you join a server [all clients]
14:58<yorick> should be used to set the servers port/ip and/or server optimization settings/patches:
14:58<yorick> - 'pre_server.scr' is executed before the servers tcp stack is started [in-game only]
14:58<yorick> - 'pre_dedicated.scr' is executed before the servers tcp stack is started [dedicated only]
14:58<yorick> should be used to set the servers name, password and so on:
14:58<yorick> - 'on_server.scr' is executed after starting a server [dedicated and in-game]
14:58<yorick> - 'on_dedicated.scr' is additionally executed after starting a server [dedicated only]
14:58<yorick>For examples how a script can look, check the .example examples.
14:58<HUNRusty>on_server_connect.scr - This script will be executed by the server whenever a client connects (usefull for motd)
14:58<yorick>executed BY the server
14:58<yorick>not on the client
14:59<HUNRusty>yes, and im the server
14:59<yorick>it only scans on starting ottd
15:00<@peter1138>.openttd/scripts/on_server_connect.scr should work
15:00<HUNRusty>but it doesnt :(
15:01<yorick>sure you restarted ottd?
15:01<HUNRusty>yes, i did it many times
15:02<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r11967 /trunk/src/pathfind.cpp: -Fix (r1400): MP_ROAD can have railbits too - OPF searching over rail of diffent owner behind crossing
15:02<yorick>its dedicated only, isn't it?
15:02<yorick>thanks SmatZ
15:03<HUNRusty>yes its dedicated
15:03<SmatZ>yorick: I was going to fix that anyway :)
15:03<Eddi|zuHause3>who uses OPF anyway?
15:03<yorick>old AI
15:04<LA[lord]>ahh... I'm getting a bit wicked because of being on tt-forums... Before, when I saw DaleStan answering exactly the question, but not what the asker wanted, I have tried to interrupt.. but now I laugh when a somebody again fails to get the answer.. Although only if the answerer wasn't rude.
15:04<yorick>signals-untill short ago
15:04<Eddi|zuHause3>who uses AI anyway?
15:04<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause3: it was used to propagate signals until r11802, now it is used by old AI, ships, aircrafts... depends on patch settings
15:04<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause3: many people
15:04<SmatZ>yorick: maybe not :)
15:05<ln->SmatZ: the plural is...
15:05<yorick>I think NTP and NPF aren't used
15:05<SmatZ>ln-: I don't know?
15:05<ln->SmatZ: ... aircraft.
15:05<yorick>saves compiling time
15:06<SmatZ>yorick: NTP is used by trains instead of OPF (though it is buggy a lot :-x, NPF is used for example on DS port :)
15:06<SmatZ>ln-: really? wow
15:06<HUNRusty>thanks, bye
15:06<@peter1138>aircraft do not use pathfinding
15:06<@peter1138>it's a to b for them
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15:07<SpComb>they just fly around randomly until they happen to fly close enough to an airport
15:07<yorick>remove the "Enable YAPF for aircrast" patch setting then
15:07<SmatZ>well, aircraft do not use pathfinder :)
15:07<SpComb>"straight line" is still a pathfinder
15:07<SmatZ>yorick: there is not such an option
15:07<SmatZ>SpComb: you saved me :)
15:08*yorick checks
15:08<SpComb>actually, planes only fly in the same eight directions as trains go, so they don't even go in straight lines
15:08<yorick>SmatZ: you're right
15:08<yorick>but NTP could be removed
15:09<@peter1138>i love their 180° instant turns :o
15:09<yorick>YAPF could easily replace it
15:09<SmatZ>peter1138: wasn't that fixed?
15:09<yorick>I've seen them making a 240degree turn, to the wrong way
15:09<yorick>in beta3, yes
15:09<@peter1138>SmatZ, worked around, really
15:10<yorick>current way, you get users thinking NPF is better than YAPF
15:10<@peter1138>remove NPF
15:10<@peter1138>not NTP, heh
15:11<yorick>"because YAPF works only for regions"
15:11<yorick>NPF is used in the DS port
15:11<yorick>, smatz said
15:11-!-LA[lord] [~LAlord]] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.5 :]
15:12<Prof_Frink>peter1138! lessoldstuffthatsbeenreplacedbybetternewstuff!
15:13<Eddi|zuHause3>you violatedd the rule
15:13<yorick>no, it goes !peter1138 LessOldStuffThatsBeenReplacedByBetterNewStuff remove
15:13<Eddi|zuHause3>and you have no idea, yorick
15:13<yorick>you violateddi the rule?
15:13<yorick>that's right, I have no idea
15:13<yorick>tell me :P
15:15<yorick>!Eddi tell me
15:15<Prof_Frink>yorick: Not all of us are bots
15:15<DaleStan>I thought it was usually "new", not "less".
15:16<Prof_Frink>I believe it's only SpComb that responds to ! commands
15:16<yorick>Prof_Frink: I am
15:16<yorick>Gonozal_VIII believes so
15:17<Gonozal_VIII>i do?
15:17<Prof_Frink>DaleStan: So, "newgettingridofoldstuffthatsbeenreplacedbybetternewstuff"?
15:17<yorick>you say I'm a bot
15:17<Gonozal_VIII>been afk
15:17<DaleStan>That might do.
15:18<yorick>Gonozal_VIII: you're saying I am a bot, right?
15:19<Gonozal_VIII>of course you're a bot
15:19<yorick>try me :)
15:20*yorick is getting payed imaginary money by Prof_Frink
15:20-!-Diabolic-Angel [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:20<yorick>my coder isn't perfect
15:21<Prof_Frink>peter1138: No, the system service that does wages.
15:21<@peter1138>fail'd :(
15:22*yorick likes slapping people and randomly picks peter1138 to slap.
15:22*Prof_Frink thinks yorick is from Essex
15:22*yorick isn't
15:23*yorick wonders why Prof_Frink thinks so
15:23<Prof_Frink>You're a right slapper
15:24<Sacro>and are bleach blonde
15:24*yorick slaps Sacro upside da head with a hairy goldfish
15:24*dih slaps yorick
15:24<dih>stop hitting good people
15:24<Wolf01>noo, all the canals around the crop fields disappeared with the shores support :D
15:24<yorick>he's calling me bleach blonde!
15:25<yorick>and Sacro isn't good!
15:25<yorick>(no offence)
15:25*Sacro tilts his monitor
15:25<Sacro>D: tis all lopsided
15:26<yorick>atleast I have my nice hairy goldfish to slap people with
15:27<yorick>you don't have my nice hairy goldfish :P
15:28-!-Purno [] has joined #openttd
15:28<Prof_Frink>"Hairy goldfish". I think I've found a new euphemism.
15:28<yorick>well done!
15:29<yorick>hydrairc has some nice slapping quotes
15:29<yorick>all packet within the /slap <person> command
15:30-!-DJNekkid [] has joined #openttd
15:30<yorick>hello DJNekkid/7of9
15:31<DJNekkid>here as well
15:32<yorick>how many personalitys do you have?
15:33<DJNekkid>only one, at the time
15:33<yorick>answering twice?
15:33<DJNekkid>not usually
15:33<DJNekkid>some times
15:33<DJNekkid>w edo
15:33*yorick is feeling sad
15:33<DJNekkid>ehm, whatever
15:34<yorick>it seems that one part of you is not willing to accept you have a split personality
15:34<DJNekkid>guess not
15:34<DJNekkid>or shal i stop awsnering with 2 lines each time?
15:34<DJNekkid>like, now?
15:34<Sacro>maybe not
15:35-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:42<yorick>!SbComb say something
15:42<yorick>who's his owner?
15:42<yorick>he doesn't work...
15:43<yorick>!SpComb say something
15:43<yorick>it should be
15:43<dih>shush kidds
15:43<yorick>good :-)
15:44*yorick doesn't like silence
15:44*yorick doesn't like called paranoid or annoying either
15:45<hylje>bugger off :p
15:47*SpComb demands a cookie from yorick
15:48*yorick gives SpComb a cookie but demands him giving a paw first
15:51<yorick>then, it was silent
15:52*yorick is still sad
15:52<yorick>and its dih's fault! :-(
15:52<yorick>he feels attacked too soon
15:52<dih>hylje: i second that , yet without a smily
15:53<dih>find yourself a wall to talk to
15:53<yorick>*found one!
15:53<dih>just stop being annoying
15:53<dih>and you dont have to tell us everything you do
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15:54<dih>flippin heck
15:54<dih>you are worse than my 5 year old nephew
15:54<yorick>yes, thanks
15:54<yorick>I have periods
15:54<dih>hey - at least i say openly what i sometimes think :-)
15:55<dih>be happy at least someone tells you how you appear at times
15:55<SpComb>yorick: I'll give you a pretty fractal instead,
15:55<yorick>I don't mean to
15:56<@peter1138>make it colour
15:56<dih>nice one SpComb
15:57-!-Purno [] has quit [Quit: Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.]
15:57<SpComb>peter1138: there's the source code, submit a patch
15:57<SpComb>although I should probably take a look at julia sets
15:59-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: I am what I am, and I can't change to something that isn't me :(]
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16:00<SpComb>the best thing about fractals is how easy it is to distribute the rendering to a several processors
16:02<@Belugas>fractal map generation!
16:02-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
16:02<Eddi|zuHause3>the british coast line is fractal
16:03<hylje>brits are fractal
16:03<SpComb>I was pondering that yesterday, drawing a line around the edge of a fractal
16:03<SpComb>it would be a single contiguous line, but it would be infinitely long
16:05<SpComb> <-- hmm, interesting detail
16:05<SpComb>the "inside" parts are quite different from the stuff more on the outside
16:08<Gonozal_VIII>[22:02:37] Eddi|zuHause3: the british coast line is fractal <-- seen that video with the matches?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause3>what video?
16:09<Gonozal_VIII>where they put matches around the coastline on a map, and everytime they half the length, a lot more of them fits there
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16:12<Wolf01> any comment?
16:14<hylje>Wolf01: nicely elaborate rivers
16:14<hylje>slow host btw :(
16:14<SmatZ>17% ...
16:14<Wolf01>my dsl is 640/256 :P
16:16<SmatZ>10 people downloading your image... :)
16:16<Wolf01>and bittorrent :P
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16:25<Sareith>hi anyone there?
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16:25<Gonozal_VIII>!seen anyone
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16:25<Sareith>I have a problem I am playing ttd for years I bought a new comp
16:25<Sareith>and it is vista
16:25<Sareith>and I donno what to do
16:25<Gonozal_VIII>bad problem
16:25<Gonozal_VIII>format c
16:26<Gonozal_VIII>install xp
16:26<Gonozal_VIII>fixes that
16:26<Sareith>Do I have another choice
16:27<Sareith>I am ready to work on it for hours and try to fix it
16:27<Gonozal_VIII>didn't try on vista
16:27<Sareith>I saw that vista version is 4.99 pound
16:28<Sareith>If I cant do anything I will buy it
16:28<Gonozal_VIII>heavy for such a small disk
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16:29<Gonozal_VIII>and... vista version of what?
16:30<Sareith>Transport Tycoon Deluxe
16:30<Sareith>Now Playable On Windows XP & Vista Instant Download Only £4.99!
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16:30<Gonozal_VIII>who sells that?
16:31<Sareith>Maybe I can find someone who plays on vista
16:31<@Belugas>i don't
16:31<@Belugas>buyt i've heard it is faisable
16:31<Gonozal_VIII>why are they allowed to sell ttd :S
16:32<Sareith>It is writing on ttd forums
16:32<Eddi|zuHause3>i would not trust people that sell "for download"
16:32<@peter1138>don't buy that
16:32<@peter1138>it is not legitimate
16:33<Sareith>But I saw a topic the writer was writing about the chopping sound of ttd on vista :D
16:34<Gonozal_VIII>not openttd?
16:34<Sareith>openttd yes
16:34<Sareith>ye It shows there is version of it on vista
16:34<Eddi|zuHause3>you don't need to buy openttd
16:34<Sacro>Poster "Madurobob" said it was a statue "obviously built by an ancient civilisation that later departed Mars and settled Denmark".
16:35<@Belugas>it is free
16:35<Gonozal_VIII>yes, openttd is free, you only need some files from any ttd version
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16:36<Sareith>so can it work?
16:37<Sareith>My friend had arranged the folder in 2004 or 2005
16:37<Sareith>and I forgot everything what to do
16:38<Gonozal_VIII>i guess ttd won't work but openttd should
16:39<Sareith>what is different between openttd and ttd
16:40<Gonozal_VIII>more features, still in developement and it's free
16:41<Eddi|zuHause3>and it runs under modern windows ;)
16:42<Sareith>what is that?
16:42<Gonozal_VIII>lots and lots of trains
16:42<Sareith>The latest stable version is 0.5.3, released on September 15th 2007.
16:42<Sareith>If I just download this one
16:42<Sareith>do I need a base download or something like that
16:42<Gonozal_VIII>i would suggest 0.6 beta 3 or the nightlies
16:42<Sareith>I ask if this just an expansion is or not
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16:43<Eddi|zuHause3>no, it's a full version, except you need the tr*.grf files from your original TTD cd
16:43<Gonozal_VIII>read the readme :-)
16:43<Eddi|zuHause3>and the
16:44<Ammler>you will find links to those files on the tt-forums...
16:44<Gonozal_VIII>well.. if he's been playing ttd all the time, he should already have them
16:45<Sareith>nope I dont
16:45<Sareith>As I said
16:45<Sareith>My friend opened some internet sites
16:46<Sareith>He downloaded 3 4 things
16:46<Ammler>so you haven't the files self?
16:47<Ammler>there you find a thread with links to downloadable original files
16:47<Gonozal_VIII>that's the cheapo version of a rail service vehicle?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause3>Sareith: the real question is "how can the train [that this picture was taken from] be in the same signal block as the 'train' waiting in front of the signal?"
16:48<Gonozal_VIII>or somebody clicked ignore signal and it'll crash any moment
16:48<Eddi|zuHause3>damn you guys for having so similar nicks!
16:48<Ammler>maybe, the installer should link to this thread if it doesn't found installed TT:
16:49<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause3: the "train" in front has rubber tyres, and would probably not trip the track circuit
16:50<Ammler>or this link would be the nicest one: :-)
16:50<Eddi|zuHause3>Ammler: i really don't think that would convince the lawyers :p
16:50<fjb>Yapf is too stupid to handle single track lines. :-(
16:50<+glx>Sareith: if you want to play the original, try with dosbox
16:50<Gonozal_VIII>not really fjb... if you build it right, it works
16:51<Gonozal_VIII>just don't place too many signals
16:51<Ammler>fjb: never build signals on single tracks
16:51<Ammler>then it works
16:52<Eddi|zuHause3>YAPF is alright with single track, only the signalling is not properly capable of handling it
16:52<Eddi|zuHause3>we need a train ordering patch
16:52<Gonozal_VIII>would be much better, if you could build presignals that only count reachable extis, not those with 135° corners...
16:53<Eddi|zuHause3>"wait at this waypoint until train X passed that waypoint"
16:54<Eddi|zuHause3>or decently synchronised timetables
16:55<Sareith>aha I found
16:55<Eddi|zuHause3>no comment...
16:56<Gonozal_VIII>with presignals that ignore 135° corner exits, you could place combo signals at the double track parts of the single track
16:56<Ammler>Sareith: did you try my links?
16:57<Gonozal_VIII>then it won't lock
17:03<fjb>Yapf has a problem on single tracks that are more than a simple point to point connection. You need signals if the connection is betwenn more than two points.
17:04<fjb>Ignored 135° turns would get all the priority optimizers mad...
17:04<Gonozal_VIII>they can still use 90°
17:05<fjb>That would get the optimizing 90° turn lovers mad...
17:05<Gonozal_VIII>the what?
17:06<fjb>The poeple who like to build 90° turns and try to make priority lines. :-)
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>you think there are people that do that?
17:06<fjb>Yes, read the forums.
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>trains slow down to a crawl on 90° corners, why would a priority make sense there?
17:07<fjb>Don't know. Maybe not the same line, but at least in the same game.
17:07<Gonozal_VIII>then it doesn't matter
17:08<Gonozal_VIII>pathfinder should take care of things, that trains don't drive along the priority lines
17:08<fjb>How? Will you make that an option for each signal? I thought about a game wide option, or really fix that singnal bug and break all the priority lines. :-)
17:09<fjb>Maybe the new PBS will fix most of that problems.
17:09<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm or not...
17:09<Gonozal_VIII>priority with pbs is difficult
17:10<fjb>Priority with PBS is automatic in some way.
17:10<hylje>Gonozal_VIII: priority is done through inaccessible presignal blocks
17:10<Gonozal_VIII>random priority...
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17:10<fjb>hylje: That will not work with the new PBS.
17:11<Gonozal_VIII>i know that hylje
17:11<Gonozal_VIII>we were talking about people who want 90° corners and priority lines, if 135° corners would be ignored by presignals
17:12<fjb>The bad thing about yapf not handling single track lines is that the trains get lost that way. And yapf is unable to get a lost train back on the route.
17:12<Gonozal_VIII>lost? hmm strange
17:12<Gonozal_VIII>red two way signal... drive anywhere
17:12<Sareith>I did it thanks everyone
17:13<Sareith>o yea
17:13<fjb>Yes, when it can not enter the desired track (because of a red signal) it simply doesn't wait, it takes the next switch. And then that train is lost.
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17:14<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Yes. Drive anywhere.
17:14<Gonozal_VIII>try using one way tracks at the crossings
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17:14<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: That is the workaround, but not always easy.
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17:14<hylje>fjb: i believe yapf has an option for that
17:14<Sareith>ammler thanks alot
17:15<Gonozal_VIII>i personally like that, it lets you direct trains into waiting depots or loops
17:15<fjb>And a lost train even doesn't find a free platform at a station, it just drives to the next platform, if free or not.
17:15<Ammler>don't tell anyone, you the it from me :-P
17:15<fjb>hylje: I didn't find that option. I thought I did, but it didn't help.
17:15<Gonozal_VIII>fjb, don't let lost trains drive through stations, provide ways back
17:16<fjb>Ammler: Don't tell anybody not to tell.
17:16<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: I can not build 180° turn in front of any possible station. And even if I would, the lost train wouldn't take it.
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17:17<Ammler>I am wondering, why those guys can publish those files, but ottd can't include it....
17:17<Gonozal_VIII>it wouldn't get lost at all because the path through that loop is detected
17:18<Gonozal_VIII>they can't, it's illegal
17:18<Ammler>hmm... ok
17:18<fjb>Ammler: That guys do something illegal. But that is their problem. That doesn't mean that OpenTTD can di something illegal too.
17:19<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: As soon as a train is lost it doesn't route anymore. It randomly tries switches always prefering to go straight ahead.
17:19<Gonozal_VIII>but it won't get lost to begin with
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17:20<fjb>When I have the room to build 180° turns I can also bould full grown double track lines.
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>you could also add depots to your crossings and make it that way, that trains with red exits enter the depot instead of going to the wrong exit
17:20<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Sadly depots don't help. I already tried that.
17:21<Ammler>fjb: can you show me a screnn or even a save with "your problem"?
17:21<Gonozal_VIII>2 depots :-)
17:21<Gonozal_VIII>if it comes out of the first one and exit is still red, it enters the 2nd
17:22<fjb>Ammler: I have a savegame. Where can I put it?
17:23<Ammler>or you could start a server with it :)
17:25<fjb>Here it is
17:26<fjb>That versoin already has some fixes to the single track lines.
17:26<fjb>Add a few more trains and the problems get worse.
17:27<Ammler>hmm, need to update trunk first :)
17:30<fjb>Oh, I made it with r11937.
17:34<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r11968 /trunk/ (19 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: remove redundant FindLengthOfTunnel(), use GetTunnelBridgeLength() and/or GetOtherTunnelEnd() instead
17:34<Gonozal_VIII>single track lines don't get enough attention.. track is so cheap that most people just start with double track even for only one or two trains
17:35<fjb>Track isn't cheap when you start to play with the passenger destinations patch and a train set with high running costs.
17:36<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm passenger destinations... isn't that still quite buggy?
17:36<fjb>And it looks silly to flatten a mountain for two small trains.
17:36<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Yes, it is really buggy. But that didn't stop me from playing with it. It is just a game, isn't it? :-)
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17:38<fjb>And I wanted to build branch lines that look like branch lines. One track, a few stations and a few trains. And then some small lines between close industries early in the game when there are no capable trucks yet.
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17:43<Gonozal_VIII>i'm currently experimenting with game start in 1875 :-) serbian railset has its first trains in 1873...
17:43<Gonozal_VIII>i guess i'll change some ships to be available from then on...
17:44<Gonozal_VIII>and maybe the av8 zeppelin
17:44<Gonozal_VIII>from 1900 or something
17:46<fjb>Oh, nice. But I guess it is a bit difficult to start that early.
17:46<Gonozal_VIII>the first engine has a top speed of 16 km/h :-)
17:46<fjb>Zeppeling before 1918 were not really usefull for transporting passengers or freight.
17:47<Gonozal_VIII>The "Golden Age of Airships" began in July 1900 with the launch of the Luftschiff Zeppelin LZ1. :-)
17:47<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Build double tracks for that engine. .-)
17:48<fjb>But LZ1 was only a demostration of the technology.
17:48<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't really matter, i just want to spread the vehicles a bit better
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17:50<fjb>Why don't you stay with the railway that early? That were the golden times of railway, not airway. They are now.
17:52<Gonozal_VIII>it's 25 years after gamestart... with daylength 30 ;-)
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17:53<fjb>Much time to play with that cute little locomotive. You have much time to enjoy it's way to the next station.
17:53<fjb>No stress.
17:53<Gonozal_VIII>ford t is 12 years too late
17:53<Gonozal_VIII>1920 instead of 1908
17:55<fjb>Yes, some people involved with TTDP are thinking that a gamestart befpre 1920 is not usefull so most sets are designed to start 1920.
17:56<Prof_Frink>fjb: Trouble is, in TTD/Patch, dates before 1920 don't exist
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17:56<Gonozal_VIII>i'll change the first ships to 1873, like the first engine, the ford t to 1908 and the airship to 1906 :-)
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17:57<fjb>Prof_Frink: That was a design decision. The grf interface allows earlier dates.
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18:01<fjb>MB stated that he was dicussing the date when a gamestart would be usufull with the guy who did the patch (I don't remember his name at the moment) and MB was strongly against an earlier gamestart.
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18:01<Gonozal_VIII>mb is strongly against a lot of things
18:02<fjb>Lokks like he is strongly against everything that he doesn't need or wouldn't use in the game.
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18:04<Gonozal_VIII>everybody has a different playing style
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18:05<@peter1138>MB did try the earlier dates
18:06<fjb>Yes. One reason for that few late engines in the DBset XL is that MB thinks games after 2010 are not usefull because the whole map is connected then anyway.
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18:06<fjb>Oh, did he? Mabe he was too impatient with the slow locomotives.
18:07<@peter1138>well, not, there was just the problem that it doesn't work with ttdpatch
18:07<Gonozal_VIII>impossible to connect everything on a large map, even until 2100...
18:07<ln->good morning
18:07<Prof_Frink>ln-: Not quite
18:09<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: MB only plays TTDP. He will change his mind when TTDP gets bigger maps.
18:09<fjb>Moin ln-
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18:09<Prof_Frink>But mb is not the only grffer
18:10<Gonozal_VIII>grf artist ;-)
18:11<@peter1138>frankly, frank, i am not too keen on this projection of personal opinion on others, and i for one would appreciate less of it
18:11<fjb>But he made the only middle european passenger stations set so far. And he made the only german railway set so far...
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18:16<Gonozal_VIII>i've seen some other german stations on the forum, from somebody with * or star in the nick?... i forget names all the time^^
18:18<Gonozal_VIII>* or star <-- both :D
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18:22<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r11969 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Codechange: documentation update, there are no 'track bits under bridge' anymore
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19:00<Eddi|zuHause3><fjb> Yes, when it can not enter the desired track (because of a red signal) it simply doesn't wait, it takes the next switch. And then that train is lost. <- why does nobody ever listen to me?
19:00<Gonozal_VIII>more fun without listening?
19:01<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: I listened to you. But you settings didn't seam to help. Maybe I set the wrong value.
19:02<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: changes made to the config will not affect savegames
19:02<Eddi|zuHause3>to affect a savegame, load it, change the setting from the console, and save it
19:02<fjb>So what do I have to set before starting the next game?
19:03<Eddi|zuHause3>you can change it in the game, you only have to do it from the game console (^ key)
19:03<Sacro>` key?
19:03<Eddi|zuHause3>Sacro: not on german keyboards ;)
19:04<Eddi|zuHause3>in the general case: whichever key is above [tab]
19:04<Eddi|zuHause3>(and below [Esc])
19:04<Gonozal_VIII>and right of nothing
19:04<Eddi|zuHause3>and left of 1
19:05<fjb>Ok what command do I have to give the console?
19:06<Eddi|zuHause3>use Shift+PgUp to scroll, there should be an entry like "yapf.rail_first_twoway_eol"
19:06<Eddi|zuHause3>then type "patch whatever_that_setting_is_really_called off"
19:09<fjb>Does that enable the penalties in the next two lines?
19:10<Eddi|zuHause3>that does not do anything with penalties
19:10<Eddi|zuHause3>it allows trains to wait in front of red two way signals
19:10<Eddi|zuHause3>instead of discarding that route alltogether
19:11<Eddi|zuHause3>and that setting should really be off by default, but i couldn't quite convince KUDr of that
19:11<fjb>Why is it on by default?
19:11<Gonozal_VIII>naaah, i like it how it is
19:12<Gonozal_VIII>waiting depots don't work with that off
19:12<Gonozal_VIII>or on
19:12<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: something about TTDP handling of red signals, i believe
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19:13<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: that kind of advanced abuse of features is suitible to have the people fiddle with the config, default values should be for the uninformed newbies
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19:14<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: It is working much better now.
19:14<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm ok, that's a point i guess
19:15<fjb>And the waiting depots didn't work for me. I tried that.
19:15<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: besides, you can still change the penalties so that the path through the depot is preferred
19:15<Gonozal_VIII>they do work, depots have a presignal entry built in
19:15<Gonozal_VIII>so train enters and doesn't leave until exit is free
19:16<Gonozal_VIII>while it's waiting, other trains can enter, no jams
19:18<fjb>The train lenters the depot and leaves it in the oposit direction.
19:19<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: you have to make the signal an exit signal
19:19<Eddi|zuHause3>and you can't have two exit signals
19:19<Eddi|zuHause3>and it's probably not a solution of your probllem
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19:21<fjb>Exit signals and pre signals are a bit problematic at single track lines.
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19:23<Eddi|zuHause3>i know, which is why it's not a solution to your problem
19:23<fjb>And yapf still should try to get a lost train back on the route.
19:24<Gonozal_VIII>you shouldn't let them get lost in the first place
19:24<Eddi|zuHause3>it does, but if the train is lost, there is no route anymore
19:25<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: As I told you that is unavoidable with yapf and single track layouts.
19:25<Gonozal_VIII>what happens, if you skip orders?
19:25<Gonozal_VIII>it's not, they will wait now with that switch
19:26<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i occasionally found that the waiting time should be increased as well
19:26<Gonozal_VIII>if they still somehow get lost, your layout is bad
19:26<fjb>There could be a lock with two trains facing each other now. One will get a timeout and turn around. That train is now lost.
19:26<Gonozal_VIII>there are also waiting time settings...
19:27<fjb>A bad layout is no excuse for al router malfunction.
19:27<Eddi|zuHause3>when two trains directly face each other at a signal, one of them immediately turns around
19:27<fjb>One of the trains has to time out in that situation.
19:27<Gonozal_VIII>but trains facing each other could be avoided with presignals that ignore 135° corners
19:27<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Right, but presignals are not implemented that way.
19:29<fjb>And a lost train causes much trouble because it can not choose a free track or platform. It takes the first and happily sits in front of a red signal while the track next to it has a green signal.
19:29<Gonozal_VIII>i know, they behave like trains without orders
19:29<fjb>Yes. And that is bad.
19:30<Gonozal_VIII>maybe let any train prefer green signals, no matter if it has orders or a path?
19:30<fjb>Even a train without orders should not act that stupid. red is red and green is green, if it has orders or not.
19:30<fjb>Yes, that would be a good starting point to make it better.
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19:34<Sacro>In short, 100 means nothing on the Fahrenheit scale, 96 used to mean something but doesn't anymore, and 0 is colder than it ever gets in Denmark.
19:35<fjb>Kelvin is all that matters.
19:35<Gonozal_VIII>kelvin is compatible with celsius
19:36<fjb>Kelvin is celsius with the offset corrected.
19:36<Gonozal_VIII>without offset
19:36<fjb>Fahrenheit is strange at best.
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19:37<Eddi|zuHause3>Sacro: not denmark, east danzig
19:37<Gonozal_VIII>problem with kelvin is, that normal temperatures are high numbers, not like 1-2 digits like they are with celsius or even fahrenheit
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19:39<Gonozal_VIII>maybe a temperatur scale that has 0 at 250K would be a good compromise
19:39<fjb>7 segments leds are cheap today.
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19:42-!-Osai|away is now known as Osai
19:43<Sacro>"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
19:43-!-Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
19:44-!-Osai^zZz is now known as Osai^zZz`off
19:46<fjb>How does it get calculated which train wins when more then one train is waiting for a signal block get become free?
19:46<Gonozal_VIII>i would guess if they are looped through each tick, the one with the lower id wins
19:46<Eddi|zuHause3>whoever is first in the list
19:51<Gonozal_VIII>[01:50:53] Bartleby: man sollt jeden einzelnen ami mit nem pool versorgen
19:51<Gonozal_VIII>[01:51:03] Robert: hä
19:51<Gonozal_VIII>[01:51:06] Bartleby: und ihm sagen hat 100°, kann rein hüpfen
19:51<Gonozal_VIII>bad bartleby^^
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20:05<+glx><Eddi|zuHause3> whoever is first in the list <-- the faster to start indeed
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20:08<fjb>glx: Thank you.
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20:16<Gonozal_VIII>yay, ships in 1875
20:18<Sacro> <- NSFDe
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20:32<Gonozal_VIII>yay, ford t in 1908
20:34<fjb>George started work on LV5. Maybe you should put that on the wishlist for LV5.
20:34<Gonozal_VIII>would that work with patch?
20:35<Gonozal_VIII>what happens to the long format date in patch?
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20:36<Sacro>can anyone explain quicksort to me D:
20:36<ln->read the book
20:37<fjb>Hm, don't know. Ask George, he will tell you if it is possible.
20:37<Gonozal_VIII>isn't that the one that always compares two entries and switches them if they are in the wrong order?
20:38<Sacro>Gonozal_VIII: yes, quite possibly
20:38<fjb>Oh, wrong
20:38<Sacro>but ... it confuddles me
20:38<fjb>That is Bubble sort
20:38<Gonozal_VIII>lots of sort mechanisms, i mix them up all the time
20:38<Gonozal_VIII>then it's the recursive thing?
20:39<Sacro>qsort uses pivots and hi/lo things
20:39<fjb>That maybe.
20:39<Sacro>yes, recursive
20:39<fjb>Begin in the middle, then go to the middle of the upper half and then the lower half and so on.
20:39<ln->but quicksort is notorious for being explained wrong even in textbooks.
20:40<Gonozal_VIII>you split in in half until you reach single entry level, then you sort them all the way back through the recursion
20:41<Gonozal_VIII>i guess it's not easy to explain that...
20:41<GoneWacko>ooh I implemented quicksort (read: copy pasted some code and added some bits) for an assignment not too long ago
20:41<Sacro>ln-: our lecturer kept doing loads of diagrams and never really explained it
20:41<Sacro>GoneWacko: what language?
20:41*Sacro does C#
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20:42<GoneWacko>So port it :p
20:42<Gonozal_VIII>shouldn't be much difference to c#
20:42<GoneWacko>We had to make a distributed sorter that would split a list in X parts and sort them all on a bunch of threads which may or may not have been on remote servers.
20:43<ln->is some sorting algorithm particularly good to run in parallel? (or does that matter anyway)
20:43<Gonozal_VIII>what would you want to sort that requires multiple servers to do so :S
20:43<GoneWacko>well QuickSort uses partitioning so I suppose that might be good for distribution.
20:43<Sacro>qsort sucks ass
20:43<Gonozal_VIII>recursive stuff should be easy to do parallel
20:44<GoneWacko>But in my case we'd just split it up into parts and use a random sorter (I did QuickSort and BubbleSort because one sucks and one is good -_-)
20:44<Sacro>holy crap
20:44<Sacro>qsort in sed ><
20:44<Korenn>qsort can be written to work very well on parallel execution
20:45<Sacro>Korenn: yes, probabbly
20:45<Sacro>i mean, your first split is 2 way
20:45<Sacro>could shove one on each core
20:45<Korenn>it doesn't require multiple servers
20:45<GoneWacko>And in my case you can shove the next split onto four cores[/showoff]
20:46<Korenn>when I did parallel programming at uni, we wrote programs for cell systems, with lots of processors in a gridlike setup
20:46<GoneWacko>Korenn: well I did a 6 month semester called Develop a Distributed Object Oriented Application so the focus was on the distribution part, not the sorting algoritms :p
20:46<Korenn>qsort becomes amazingly efficient in such a setup
20:47<Korenn>I did that as well, but it was a different course :)
20:47<GoneWacko>Quick dabbles in RMI and EJB3 and I've never really used it afterwards :p
20:47<Korenn>Did that too
20:47<Korenn>and advanced courses into webservices etc
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20:48<Korenn>I specialized in stuff like that, but will probably never use it :P
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20:49<GoneWacko>Well first there was 3 months of courses on the subject and now I finished a 3 month (or 9 weeks + christmas holidays) project for a third party in which I've used exactly NO distributed technologies at all :p
20:50<GoneWacko>Ended up creating a JSP-based information system (although we did make a nice little OO design and such)
20:50<Gonozal_VIII>and airship available in 1906 :-)
20:50<Korenn>JSP is a distributed technology, or at least part of the middleware for it
20:51<GoneWacko>Well this Friday I have to do my assessment where I prove that I'm competent on the subject, so that's what I'll say :p
20:51<Korenn>haha :)
20:52<Korenn>show them a standard 3 tiered distribution diagram of browser - jsp server - backend, that always convinces people you've been doing distributes stuff :P
20:52<GoneWacko>I think I will, haha.
20:53<GoneWacko>But as far as I know none of the project groups did much in the way of distributed systems so it shouldn't be an issue anyway.
20:54<Korenn>3 months isn't really enough to build a complex distributed system from the ground up anyway, at least not if you need to learn how to use the software while building it
20:54<Korenn>took me a year to work on my thesis on distributed rule engines :)
20:55<GoneWacko>Well it was pretty hard to make an information system in 9 weeks :P In hindsight I could've worked harder.
20:55<Korenn>uhhuh, sounds familiar
20:56<GoneWacko>But really we had to do research into a lot of new middleware (not really, mostly Hibernate :p)
20:56<Eddi|zuHause2>i think insertion sort might be suitible for distributed compution, if bandwidth is the limiting factor
20:56<Korenn>I did a course where the teacher broke up the work by having all groups work on separate parts of the whole, and add all the results together at the end. Naturally, none of it worked :P
20:56<Eddi|zuHause2>like you do in card games
20:56<Eddi|zuHause2>the "dealer" gives out chunks of data
20:56<Eddi|zuHause2>and the other ones start sorting them as they come in
20:57<Eddi|zuHause2>then you can merge the sorted lists when they come back
20:57<GoneWacko>Actually yesterday I went to the company that we did the project for and it took a total of 3 minutes to get the project to work on the man's laptop :p
20:57<GoneWacko>we were both amazed (him being a professional Java developer)
20:57<Korenn>Eddi|zuHause2: but worst case that's a lot of extra computation to merge all the fractional lists together
20:58<Eddi|zuHause2>merging lits is not much computation
20:58<Eddi|zuHause2>it just needs twice as much memory
20:58<Eddi|zuHause2>because you have to create a new array, and fill it
20:59<Korenn>well, given two lists with length n and m, it's at least a cost of n+m to merge them in worst case
20:59<Gonozal_VIII>you could do some hashing there to send bigger things to one server and smaller to the other, that way there won't be much trouble while merging
20:59<Korenn>and that's excluding the sort
21:00<Eddi|zuHause2>that's not "worst case", you have to copy the entire list anyway
21:00<Gonozal_VIII>but the load could be badly balanced
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21:00<GoneWacko>in the case of my simple (and probably inefficient) course assigment we'd, for example, split a list of numbers between 1 and 100 into lists of 1-25, 26-50, 51-75, 76-100. And then each sorter would sort the fragment. This meant that sometimes some threads would have nothing to do while some threads virtually had to do all the work.
21:00<Korenn>why do you need to copy the whole list?
21:01<Eddi|zuHause2>but as i said, the precondition is bandwidth is expensive, calculation is cheap
21:01<Korenn>yeah sounds about right
21:01<Eddi|zuHause2>so inbetween packages, you have lots of time to calculate
21:02<Korenn>I remember there being a problem with insertion sorting in parallel execution. but it's too long ago and I never used the information :P
21:02<Eddi|zuHause2>parallel computing is a science of its own ;)
21:03<Gonozal_VIII>there would only be problems if they try to insert into the same array
21:03<+glx>yeah and many people think it's easy to use multi-threading
21:03<Eddi|zuHause2>threading is only half of the problem ;)
21:03<GoneWacko>I wonder if I should go to university after I finish my current study (Computer Science @ Hogeschool van Arnhem en Nijmegen), I'm not much for all the scientific stuff but on the otherhand it does seem interesting :P
21:03<Eddi|zuHause2>the other half is distributing the data over the clients
21:04<+glx>and a third half for the synchronisation ;)
21:04<Korenn>GoneWacko: nooooooo, go to a technical university then.
21:04*Korenn advises University of Twente :)
21:05<Gonozal_VIII>half man, half bear, half pig! 3 halfes? it's huge!
21:05<Eddi|zuHause2>my current project involves model checking of parallel algorithms
21:05<GoneWacko>Korenn: that's on my list of places I might want to go
21:05<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: stop watching south park ;)
21:05<GoneWacko>if only because of SNT :P
21:05<Korenn>GoneWacko: you're currently doing HBO?
21:05<Korenn>hehe :)
21:05<GoneWacko>There are actually ways to get a master's degree through this HBO :|
21:06<Korenn>then you should really do a technical course, the master is way more interesting than those of Drs. courses
21:07<Korenn>and there are several openttd and ttdpatch development people who came through the UT :)
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21:07<Korenn>blathijs for one
21:07<GoneWacko>Well yes I suppose that was really what I was suggesting in the first place :p
21:07<Gonozal_VIII>dr med... take all organs out, give each dr some of them, let them fix everything and then put the organs back in^^
21:07<+glx>Korenn: Rubidium too
21:08<Korenn>ah yes, I knew that
21:09*Sacro wants to follow in the footsteps of the greats
21:10<GoneWacko>I know a bunch of tt-forumers (be it TTDPatch or OpenTTD) come from UT, I'm just not sure if I'd want to learn more or just be happy with my already insane salary when I finish HBO :p
21:10<Korenn>that's true, you already have your bit of paper by then
21:11<GoneWacko>but I'll see, first I'm going on a 6 month work placement in Finland in 3 weeks, then I'm doing a minor of another 6 months and then I'm doing another work placement to graduate :p
21:11<Korenn>personally, I'd do it because it allows you to specialize in an area that interests you, far more than the HBO will allow you to
21:12<Korenn>ugh... 3 am already... off to bed :)
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21:13<Korenn>gl in finland gonewacko, I hope you'll be going in the summer, horribly cold in the winter :P
21:13<GoneWacko>well luckily it'll be Salo, which is at the south coast. But according to the Windows Vista sidebar it's currently -4°C there, it was -7°C a few hours ago :p
21:14<GoneWacko>I'll be there in spring/summer luckily :o
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21:40<Eddi|zuHause2>hey, i have trees growing through a bridge :p
21:41<Gonozal_VIII>now that's realism!
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22:04<murray>in the same way flowers can grow through asphalt you know
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