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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-01-29

---Logopened Tue Jan 29 00:00:17 2008
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04:47<Sacro>morning all
04:52<Sacro>what happens if *a = *b and *b = *a
04:53<Forked>the world is at peace?
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04:53<Forked>(sorry, no clue.. I'll shut it)
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04:57<Rubidium_>Sacro: as in ``if (*a = *b && *b = *a) { ... }''?
04:58<Sacro>Rubidium_: i was curious if you could break it
05:00<Rubidium_>would probably make a have the value of b
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06:28<Pochen>Hi, isnt it possible to transefer wood by air anymore?
06:28<Tefad>depends on your vehicles.
06:28<Tefad>usually only town based goods go in the air
06:29<Tefad>but there are vehicle sets with no air restrictions
06:29<hylje>coal helicopters
06:29<Tefad>(or minimal.. eg no liquids)
06:29<Pochen>okej. Can i change that? I have spent millions to make a perfect airconnection
06:29<Tefad>try getting a new vehicle set
06:29<Pochen>How? I started playing yeasterday, so im kinda new
06:30<Tefad>ah, GRFs is what you want then
06:30<hylje>look them up
06:30<Tefad>there are sites dedicated to them
06:30<Tefad>there are even ones that add like.. 20 new industries
06:30<Pochen>okej =)
06:30<Tefad>GRF are mods to TTD
06:31<Tefad>new units/buildings/economies
06:31<Pochen>Anyone special you one like?
06:31<Tefad>ECS is pretty good
06:31<Tefad>there's also PBI
06:31<Tefad>just remeber GRFs like to be in a certain sequence
06:31<Tefad>and that some conflict with each other
06:32<Tefad>eg: don't run ECS along with PBI, pick one or the other
06:32<Pochen>So, is it new industries, or just new looks?
06:32<Tefad>there are mods for grass, trees
06:32<Tefad>then vehicles, industries.. even city buildings
06:33<Tefad>you can get skyscrapers if you want : )
06:33<Pochen>=) I like openttd =)
06:34<Tefad>there are a few sites dedicated to TTD in general
06:34<Pochen>i played ttd long time ago, but that wasnt this sofisticated
06:34<Tefad>and other transport games as well
06:34<Tefad>so far there are two approaches to TTD expansion, ottd is nearly a complete rewrite
06:34<SpComb>hylje: cargo depletes at a rate of 5% per hundred tiles travelled
06:34<SpComb>coal-fired helicopters!
06:35<Tefad>ttdpatch is a binary patch on the original game
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06:35<Tefad>(so it won't run natively on platforms that aren't DOS or windows-based)
06:35<Pochen>im using linux, but i seems to work ok
06:35<Tefad>ok cool : )
06:35<SpComb>openttd does, yes
06:36<hylje>ottd runs on an outrageous set of platforms
06:36<SpComb>ttdpatch on linux, not so much
06:36<Tefad>ottd runs on antiquated stuff like.. BeOS
06:36<Tefad>: x
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06:36<Pochen>But, im checking the list on openttd wiki, but i cant find any of the grf's you have mentioned
06:38<Gekz>openttd runs on palmos
06:38<Gekz>arm cpu.
06:38<hylje>i could be interested in openttd on symbian s80
06:39<hylje>python :3
06:39<SpComb>python is significantly smaller than three
06:40<Pochen>so i cant use ttdpatch with linux?
06:40<SpComb>not without an emulator/vm
06:41<Pochen>So, is it hard to make it work on linux or dont the developer have time?
06:41<SpComb>as said earlier, ttdpatch is a binary patch of the origional TTD binary
06:42<Tefad>TTD was only programmed for DOS and Windows95
06:43<Tefad>however ttdpatch enables support for windowsNT (2k/xp/vista?)
06:43<Tefad>anyway, we're in #openttd
06:43<Tefad>welcome to the community.
06:43<Vikthor>Pochen: you can try TTDPatch with wine, it should work, but I am happy with using OpenTTD on Linux
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06:44<Pochen>yeah, i like openTTD to. Im just not getting the grip of grf's =)
06:46<Pochen>is it possible to use PBI on a stored game? or do i have to restart?
06:48<Pochen>Then i'll do that =) But can i transport all kinds (except for liquids) by air in pbi?
06:48<Ammler>Pochen: you can edit a existing game with scenario editor, it should work, imo.
06:49<Tefad>depends on what vehicles you're using
06:49<Ammler>you can change vehicle set on a running game without problems
06:49<Tefad>vehicles aren't designed by core game programmers
06:49<Tefad>so they can do pretty much what they want.
06:49<Ammler>mostly ;-)
06:49*Tefad nods
06:50<Tefad>some devs get in on the action
06:50<Pochen>What happens to all my vehicles i have now?
06:50<Tefad>i think most of the GRF writers are classified as contributors or something like that
06:50<Ammler>Pochen: which set do you use?
06:51<Ammler>best set for PBI is UKRS
06:51<Pochen>i have no idea. I dont use any set right now
06:52<Ammler>then try to include UKRS and see if it still works...
06:52<Ammler>maybe you have to replace your vehicels
06:52<Gekz>wtf is pbi
06:52<Ammler>so you should move them all to depot and include UKRS then
06:53<Ammler>Gekz: Pikkas Basic Industries
06:53<Gekz>it rocks
06:53<Pochen>So i just download ukrs and put in in NewGrf-folder?
06:53<Ammler>you should find links on the grfcrawler for it
06:54<Ammler>Pochen: yes
06:54<Ammler>and include it over the GRF Setting window
06:54<Gekz>i dont like ukrs
06:54<Gekz>no monorail :/
06:54<Ammler>there is no set wiht monorail
06:54<Gekz>and maglev is very limited.
06:54<hylje>coal maglev!
06:54<Gekz>i know. it sucks.
06:55<Pochen>megalev? Fastest train?
06:56<hylje>magnetic levitation
06:56<hylje>fastest, yes
06:56<Gekz>wtf >.>!
06:56<Pochen>on ukrs is says its for ttdp, not for openttd
06:57<Pochen>okej = ok, stupid :P
06:57<hylje>ottd loads just about any newgrf you throw at it
06:57*keyweed distributes omnilingual dictionaries.
06:57<hylje>but most grf folks flock around ttdp i'm aware of
06:57<Gekz>Pochen: i'm not polish.
06:57<hylje>so thats what they know
06:58<Tefad>most GRFs are designed with only ttdpatch in mind, but they work well in ottd.
06:58<Pochen>im not polish either =) Does the folder have to by namned NewGrf or just ewgrf?
06:59<Gekz>you swede.
06:59<hylje>no matter
06:59<Ammler>Pochen: in folder data
06:59<hylje>ottd finds the stuff so long they're under data
07:00<Pochen>im swede yes
07:00<Ammler>hmm, that remindes me of preparing the 6plus :-)
07:00<Ammler>Pochen: you meant "sweet"?
07:01<Gekz>he meant swede.
07:02<Pochen>So i send all my vehicles to depo, then start ukrs?
07:03<Pochen>will all be converted or do i have loads of job infront of me?
07:05<Gekz>a lolfest
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07:14<@peter1138>vehicle sets are not designed to be changed mid-game
07:17<Pochen>well, that was the trains
07:18<Pochen>i think its called highmaps in english... What is that?
07:28<Tefad>you can import gradient information via images
07:28<Tefad>and get a map based on the picture
07:28<Tefad>geological maps
07:32<Pochen>i tried ECS to try out the production-chain. Is that good?
07:38<Pochen>And how do i start i? I've added it to my grf in openttd, but the dot is blue, not green
07:40<Ammler>Pochen: for testing you can start a new game
07:40<Ammler>and else, you need to try it over the scenario editor
07:40<Pochen>i started a new game
07:41<Pochen>but i didnt see any difference
07:41<Ammler>try PBI, ECS is beta :-P
07:42<Ammler>(or read the docs, they need special orders etc.)
07:44<Pochen>okej. IIs there Chain there also?
07:54<Pochen>dbg: [pikkindw.grf:6][Error] newcargos and newindustries switches must be turned on
07:56<@peter1138>you're using 0.5.3
07:56<@peter1138>which doesn't support them
07:56<@peter1138>(or earlier)
07:58<Pochen>sooo, solution would be to upgrade my openttd?
08:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: miham * r12008 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
08:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-01-29 14:07:31
08:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 5 fixed, 5 changed by fukumori (4), tucalipe (6)
08:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 7 fixed by thetitan (7)
08:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
08:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 9 fixed by ThomasA (9)
08:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 5 fixed by habell (5)
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08:21<keyweed>fixed dutch? our languages is unfixable :/
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08:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12009 /trunk/src/sound.cpp: -Fix [FS#1707]: Avoid loading if it 'looks' incorrect, and avoid later null pointer dereferences by moving volume lookup deeper.
08:28<Pochen>What version of openttd do i need for PBI?
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08:40<frosch123>pikkas basic industries :)
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08:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r12010 /trunk/src/road_gui.cpp: -Fix (r11994): build tramway window should use STR_WHITE_TRAMWAY_CONSTRUCTION
08:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r12011 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1701]: Do not consider one-corner-raised-shores to be watered tiles from all sides.
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09:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r12012 /trunk/src/command.cpp: -Fix (r11795): Enable TownRatingTestMode during cost estimation with 'shift'-key.
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09:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r12013 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix: When modifying watered tiles, mark neighboured canals and rivers dirty in more cases.
09:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12014 /trunk/src/terraform_gui.cpp: -Fix: lighthouses and transmitters were never supposed to be build on a slope.
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11:23<yorick>hmm...I can see my bug submit has been assigned :)
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11:53<yorick>I have to go now
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11:57-!-You're now known as mikegrb
11:58<Eddi|zuHause2>finally ;)
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12:07<Pochen>Hi, when my train with passengers arrives the text isnt green, but yellow and my money doesn't increase. Why?
12:08<Forked>does the station accept passengers? Are you using any patches? (like passenger destination) .. and are you forcing it to unload?
12:08<@Belugas>you are using transfers
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12015 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h strings.cpp strings_func.h):
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#1716] (Revert r11422): Patch in FS#1430 avoided instead of fixed the
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: problem. GetStringWithArgs() discards information that SCC_GENDER_LIST needs to
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: work. Now use pointers to retrieve GRF strings, so that GetStringPtr() will work
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: correctly. This is advantageous as now no buffer copy is made when using all GRF
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: strings.
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12:11<Pochen>Forked: The station does accep passengers and im using only grf-files. And yes, im forcing it to unload and reload
12:11<@peter1138>especially not with transfer
12:15<Eddi|zuHause2>yay \o/
12:16<@peter1138>you and your silly languages with genders
12:17<keyweed>english words have genders too.
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12:42<@peter1138>keyweed, which? heh
12:44<skidd13>peter1138: he she it <- :D
12:44<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: whenever you try to decide whether to use "he/she/it" in an ongoing conversation
12:44<dih>lol skidd13
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12:44<@peter1138>that is not the same
12:44<Eddi|zuHause2>that is the same
12:44<@peter1138>no it's not
12:44<Eddi|zuHause2>yes it is
12:44<@peter1138>no it's not
12:44<@Belugas>skidd13, i think peter1138 was referring to words that can change depending of the gender
12:45<dih>hello Belugas
12:45<@peter1138>his new. her new. its new.
12:45<skidd13>Belugas: I know
12:45<@Belugas>hello Diabolic-Angel
12:45<dih>i've missed that one :-P
12:45<@peter1138>new is not changed
12:45<Eddi|zuHause2>it's new ;)
12:45<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2, no
12:45<Eddi|zuHause2>i know ;)
12:45<dih>i love greeting you when seing Diabolic-Angel in the client list ^^
12:46*Belugas is lazy today...
12:46<@Belugas>hello dih
12:46<@peter1138>neuer, neue, neues? or whatever it is
12:46<skidd13>Belugas: Even better is the "you", which differs more in german
12:46<dih>Belugas: i have a 3 letter nick and still you use tab completion :-P
12:47<@Belugas>the habit of hitting tab ;)
12:47<@Belugas>like... do not think
12:48<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: it's more complicated: "A and [his] [new] B" [his] changes according to the gender of A, and [new] changes according to the gender of B
12:48<@peter1138>english doesn't have that
12:48<Phoenix_the_II>seems r12015 is broken after compile
12:49<Phoenix_the_II>Error: Cannot open file 'TRG1R.GRF'
12:49<Phoenix_the_II>openttd: /home/openttd/svn/src/openttd.cpp:112: void error(const char*, ...): Assertion `0' failed.
12:49<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't get that...
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12:56<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, this e-mail took over 40 minutes to arrive...
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13:01<dih>guys - is the bind to ip working correctly?
13:01<dih>just saw a odd debug output:
13:01<dih>[18:57] <Phoenix_the_II> dbg: [net] Listening on
13:01<dih>[18:57] <Phoenix_the_II> dbg: [net] [udp] listening on port
13:01<dih>now that just looks wrong
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13:17<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a translation suggestion:
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13:42<hylje>RR, matey.
13:42<Rubidium_>oh noes... pirate!
13:42*Rubidium_ flees
13:42<hylje>avast ye scallywag
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13:42<@peter1138>Argh! Fleas!
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13:49<remaxim>hi Belugas
13:50<@Belugas>that name reminds me that i 've totlayy forgot to do something...
13:50<@Belugas>hello remaxim :)
13:51<remaxim>oh yeah!
13:51<remaxim>Belugas, could you pm me please?
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13:59<yorick>"Vliegtuig is in the lucht", that string still bothers me :)
14:00<Gonozal_VIII>what's lucht?
14:02<yorick>lucht is air
14:02<yorick>vliegtuig is aircraft
14:02<Gonozal_VIII>i figured that out...
14:02<yorick>its the dutch translation
14:02<remaxim>yorick, are you talking about music?
14:03<Gonozal_VIII>vliegtuig sounds a bit like flugzeug which is the german word for plane
14:03<Eddi|zuHause2>there was this swiss jonglage group called "flügzüg"
14:04<yorick>no, the other way around
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14:04<yorick>flugzeug sounds a bit like vliegtuig which is the dutch word for plane
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14:05<Gonozal_VIII>german word for air is luft... but i didn't know that a "plane is in the air" message existed...
14:05<yorick>Can't stop/start plane, plane is in the air
14:06<Gonozal_VIII>well... link that button to the send to depot button if it bothers you ;-)
14:06<Gonozal_VIII>hangar in that case, not depot...
14:06<yorick>just the message, it should be translated as "vliegtuig is in DE lucht"
14:07<mmcbane>flugzeug yorick? ^^
14:08<Gonozal_VIII>[20:03:17] Gonozal_VIII: vliegtuig sounds a bit like flugzeug which is the german word for plane
14:09<yorick>[20:04] <yorick> flugzeug sounds a bit like vliegtuig which is the dutch word for plane
14:09<Gonozal_VIII>[20:04:32] Gonozal_VIII: :P
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause2>ehh... autoslope fails under the "rear" part of a hotel...
14:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: egladil * r12016 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ -Fix (r12003): os x compilation was broken again ;)
14:24<hylje>egladil the ninja committer
14:24<Gonozal_VIII>is the documentation about the map array outdated?
14:25<Gonozal_VIII>can't find the ground type for empty tiles
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14:27<egladil>hylje: yeah, i'm a stealth ninja coder :p
14:27<Gonozal_VIII>+ if (HasBit(_m[ti->tile].m6, 0)) {
14:27<Gonozal_VIII>+ DrawGroundSprite(SPR_FLAT_SNOWY_TILE + _tileh_to_sprite[ti->tileh], PAL_NONE);
14:27<Gonozal_VIII>+ } else {
14:27<Gonozal_VIII>+ DrawGroundSprite(SPR_FLAT_GRASS_TILE + _tileh_to_sprite[ti->tileh], PAL_NONE);
14:27<Gonozal_VIII>i have that so far...
14:28<yorick>what are you trying to do?
14:28<Gonozal_VIII>but couldn't find other types except desert
14:28<Gonozal_VIII>ground tiles for unmovables
14:28<yorick>desert type == snow type, I think
14:28<Gonozal_VIII>not that m6 thing...
14:29<Gonozal_VIII>and the other ms are empty :-/
14:29<@Belugas>nice... code using direct map access
14:30<Gonozal_VIII>i tried to make a function to get unmovable ground type...
14:30<Gonozal_VIII>but that didn't work
14:30<Gonozal_VIII>only thing i could get was that bit
14:31<yorick>the compiling for mac seems to be failing
14:31<yorick>oh, and fixed
14:32<Gonozal_VIII>i even tried to change the unmovable constructor thingy to copy m5 to m4...
14:32<Gonozal_VIII>+ byte groundType = GB(_m[tile].m5, 0, 5);
14:32<Gonozal_VIII> MakeOwnedLand(tile, _current_player);
14:32<Gonozal_VIII>+ _m[tile].m4 = groundType;
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14:40<Gonozal_VIII>what goes wrong there?
14:44<@Belugas>Gonozal_VIII, don't play around with those direct map accesses
14:45<@Belugas>we made some Accessors. Use them
14:45<Gonozal_VIII>there are accessors for ground type of unmovables?
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14:53<Gonozal_VIII>ah, found something
14:55<Gonozal_VIII>but still.. that gets overwritten with change to unmovable
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15:04<@peter1138>snow == if above snowline
15:04<@peter1138>no need for a flag for that
15:04<Gonozal_VIII>makes sense...
15:04<Gonozal_VIII>but that halfdesert thing?
15:05<Gonozal_VIII>btw trees don't draw that
15:05<Phoenix_the_II>remember that problem from yesterday
15:06<Phoenix_the_II>seems the openttd.cfg:server_bind_ip var is not used at creating the listen sockets
15:06<Phoenix_the_II>but if you set the vars inside the scripts/pre_dedicated.scr
15:06<Phoenix_the_II>it works
15:08<@peter1138>well that's something odd with your configuration, possibly search path stuff
15:08<@peter1138>cos it works normally for me
15:09<Phoenix_the_II>yea, it works normally for mine 1 interface server aswell
15:09<Phoenix_the_II>but as it less powerfull i needed it to run on this brick :P
15:09<Phoenix_the_II>so i spitted the code out
15:09<Phoenix_the_II>and came up with this result
15:11<yorick>peter1138, if I change the climate using cheats, and the snow appears, and I change it to tropical, I get desert on the places where snow appeared
15:12<Eddi|zuHause2>yorick: and what is the problem about that?
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15:17<yorick>[21:04] <@peter1138> no need for a flag for that
15:18-!-|Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
15:20<@peter1138>due to a cunning trick you'll probably find that that is desert that looks like snow
15:20<dih>it's your own fault for cheating :-P
15:20<@peter1138>that too :)
15:20<dih>you just beat me to it
15:21-!-Osai^Kendo is now known as Osai^Kendo`off
15:21<@Belugas>booh to cheaters !!
15:22<yorick>horray for cola sources with coalmine graphics!
15:23-!-divo [] has joined #openttd
15:23<yorick>Oil Springs that produce toys
15:23<yorick>farms produce batterys
15:24<yorick>and wood produces cola
15:24<@Belugas>ok, we get the picture, thanks
15:24*dih sometimes wonders how old some other chatters might be
15:25*Sacro is 23
15:25<dih>young bitch :-P
15:25<yorick>dih wonders too much
15:25<SpComb>Sacro: and at university?
15:25<Sacro>SpComb: yeah
15:26<SpComb>going to what lectures?
15:26<Sacro>had Programming, Quantitive Methods, IT and Professional Skills, and Software Development and HCI
15:26<Sacro>Computer Science
15:26*Belugas is much older
15:27<dih>Sacro: where?
15:27<Sacro>dih: University of Hull
15:27<Sacro>Belugas: a *lot* older ;)
15:27<dih>i asked you that before - have i not?
15:27<Sacro>yep :)
15:27<dih>Belugas: we know - big daddy :-D
15:29*peter1138 was clever enough not to need to go to university ;p
15:29*yorick is translating latin texts
15:30<dih>yes - yorick: we all had to do homework at some point in life :-P
15:30-!-NukeBuster [] has joined #openttd
15:30<Rubidium_>lol ;)
15:31<dih>hello Rubidium :-)
15:31-!-Dark_Link^ [] has joined #openttd
15:32<yorick>yes - but not all of you had to do homework for Latin at some point of life
15:32-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:32<Rubidium_>my Latin translations were usually not quite correct ;)
15:32<dih>mine were funny
15:32<Rubidium_>as in a couple killing themselves in my translation whereas they married in the teacher's translation
15:33<dih>he sings ..... he ...... her ....
15:33<yorick>hmm...they're eating slaves now
15:33<Rubidium_>sounds like my translations ;)
15:35<@peter1138>Latin... how obsolete...
15:35<Rubidium_>but... we have a (Pig-)Latin translation of OTTD
15:35<@peter1138>for some reason
15:35<yorick>they dont even have a word for aircraft!
15:36<dih>no - but that have words for torcher
15:36<Rubidium_>yorick: why not? They could fly back then too
15:36*Prof_Frink did GCSE latin
15:37<dih>cogito ergo sum :-)
15:37<Prof_Frink>The only time I've used it was playing the freerice game
15:37*dih found that in some asterisk and obilisk comic
15:37*yorick finds latin quotes
15:37<@peter1138>Prof_Frink, at least you did a useful language. I took French.
15:38<Rubidium_>hmm, it were even the ancient Greek who could fly
15:38<Prof_Frink>I did French as well
15:38<Prof_Frink>But then, I was in Dover
15:39<Gonozal_VIII>transmitters and lighthouses are only possible on flat ground?
15:39<Gonozal_VIII>then why draw foundations for them?
15:39<@peter1138>just to annoy you
15:39<dih>sweet :-)
15:39<@peter1138>their whole purpose is to obstruct and annoy
15:40<Prof_Frink>Well, even if they are only built on flat ground, could they be autosloped?
15:40<yorick>dih: si vis pacem, para bellum :>)
15:40<yorick>they're just there to prevent terraforming
15:41<yorick>that would be even more useless if they could be autosloped
15:41<dih>it would be funny if they were their of plane pathfinding :-D
15:41<Prof_Frink>peter1138: Are they defined in a nice, easy-to-comment-out section of the sauce?
15:42<@Belugas>in fact, fountains are only there for a pretty good and universally acclaimed goal :
15:42<Gonozal_VIII>yes they are prof^^
15:42-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
15:42<@peter1138>realism :D
15:42<@Belugas>heheh ;)
15:42<Prof_Frink>./configure --no-sodding-transmitters --or-for-that-matter-lighthouses && make
15:42<yorick>would that work for MP?
15:44<dih>make it a patch setting
15:44<Rubidium_>just use a scenario
15:44-!-Pochen [] has quit [Quit: using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12]
15:44<dih>now why would you go and make it _that_ easy?
15:44<Rubidium_>and don't build them
15:44<@Belugas>[15:49] <dih> make it a patch setting <--- NEVA!
15:45<yorick>and stop the graphic glitches from hiding them untill you want to build just over them!
15:48<dih>"generate a random map with no annoyances"
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15:49*dih waves good night to Belugas
15:49<yorick>arg...I'm writing my translations in english!
15:49<yorick>now I'll have to translate my translations
15:49<dih>yes - but you dont have to comment your every action on an irc channel
15:50<yorick>the channel isn't very busy now...
15:51-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: vide, audi, tace, si vis vivere in pace]
15:51<@Belugas>god move :)
15:51<@Belugas>good move
15:52<dih>you can call me dih, and if i am standing in your way - say please :-P
15:53-!-zrah_ [] has joined #openttd
15:53<@Belugas>i have other means to get you out of my way :D
15:53-!-zrah [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:54<dih>but then you dont want to ruin the name you already have, dont you :-P
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15:55<dih>good night ladies
15:55*dih is off to bed
15:55<@Belugas>ask Sacro, i do not have such a good name
15:56<dih>that was exactly what i was refering to...
15:56<dih>just wrapped it up in nice words :-P
15:56<dih>bed time for me
15:56<dih>good night
15:57<@Belugas>night :)
15:59<Species8472>hi, as there anything to do about disconnects from servers?
15:59<Rubidium_>use a smaller map, more stable network and a faster client than the server
16:00<dih>dont connect in the first place :-P
16:00*dih wanted to be gone
16:00*dih is gone
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16:12<@Belugas>hehe... looks like a case of "Should I Stay Or Should I Go"
16:12<@peter1138>i may go
16:12<Sacro>Belugas: if you go there will be trouble
16:13<Sacro>if you stay it will be double...
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16:14<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: I know what you are going to say now
16:14<@Bjarni>when you predict the future you do it based on the past
16:16*Belugas have a big smile reading peter1138 and Sacro's posts :D
16:16<@Belugas>thanks guys :)
16:17<Sacro>behind you
16:17<@Bjarni>a three-headed monkey
16:17<@Bjarni>that's the 2nd biggest three-headed monkey I have ever seen
16:19<@Belugas>better than an octopussy :P
16:20<@Bjarni>btw I have something that was used when filming 007 Octopussy
16:22<Gonozal_VIII>too slow, coding..
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16:23<Gonozal_VIII>i hope compiling doesn't fail...
16:23<Gonozal_VIII>hmm linking
16:23<Gonozal_VIII>now to look at all those bugs i created :D
16:25<Gonozal_VIII>wow it works
16:25<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: now that's the best excuse that I have ever seen for lag on IRC :)
16:26<@Bjarni>and bugs... well it's a start. Now you "just" need to remove all of them before we can consider committing whatever you coded
16:26<Gonozal_VIII>no bugs so far :-)
16:27<Gonozal_VIII>better make a patch of that before i break it again
16:27<@Belugas>and use map accessors !
16:28<Gonozal_VIII>[21:04:07] peter1138: snow == if above snowline
16:28<Gonozal_VIII>no map accessors needed :-)
16:29<blathijs>Won't you need map accessors to determine the height of a tile?
16:29<Gonozal_VIII>well yes
16:29<@peter1138>yes, but not any new ones
16:30<Gonozal_VIII>but the code already does that
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16:33<@Belugas>good code
16:33*Belugas pets code
16:33<@Bjarni> <Bjarni> btw I have something that was used when filming 007 Octopussy <-- nobody wondered about this line???
16:34<Rexxars>I have a camera too
16:34<Rexxars>and fake guns
16:34<@Bjarni>but were they used in the movie?
16:34<Rexxars>I'm pretty sure they used cameras to film it
16:35<@Bjarni>I don't mean "like the ones they used". I mean "the one they used"
16:35<Rexxars>I thought you were trying to trick us
16:35<@Bjarni>why would I trick you guys?
16:35<Rexxars>to have a laugh and say "haha, I have a camera! they used cameras to film 007!"
16:35<@Bjarni>good one
16:36<@Bjarni>but that's not it
16:36<Rexxars>so what is this aforementioned item
16:36<@Belugas>Bjarni, i guess we were simply waiting for you to tell us...
16:36<@Bjarni>the movie is the one about an atomic bomb transported in a circus train
16:37<@Belugas>"Hooo.. No kidding Bjarni??? TEll us tell us tell us"... "Pleeeeeeeeeeeeese"
16:37<@Belugas>i do remember indeed
16:37<@Bjarni>the "item" is the locomotive pulling the train
16:37<@Bjarni>a 1000 HP tank engine
16:37<@Belugas>wait a minute... you HAVE that loco?
16:37<@Bjarni>not at home
16:37<@Belugas>as in "It belongs to ME" ?
16:37<@Bjarni>but yes
16:38<@Bjarni>as "it belongs to me and a group of other people"
16:38<@Belugas>well... nice :)
16:38<Rexxars>".. and my employer"
16:38<@Bjarni>nothing about an employer
16:39<@Belugas>and what are you doing with it? Is it a recent acquisition?
16:39<Rexxars>what are you planning on doing with it? make a coin input thingy and have kids pay money to sit in it?
16:39-!-divoafx [] has joined #openttd
16:39<@Bjarni>the bastards broke it back in 1983 (shortly after they finished filming)
16:39<@Bjarni>and it's not ready to drive yet
16:39<@Bjarni>but there are plans to restore it to operational status
16:40<@Bjarni>the boiler (the reason it broke) is fixed
16:40<@Bjarni>now all the other stuff and all the documentation needs to be done
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16:41<@peter1138> :o
16:42-!-divo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12017 /trunk/src/network/network.cpp: -Fix: when you have more than 9 network interfaces you'll enter the wonderfull world of overflows.
16:43<@Bjarni> <-- here it is
16:44<@Bjarni>not mint condition but it's possible to restore it to it's former glory
16:44<@peter1138>Rubidium_, Phoenix_the_II?
16:45<Rubidium_>peter1138: what?
16:45<@peter1138>Phoenix_the_II had a problem and had about 60 interfaces
16:45<@peter1138>might be the reason... heh
16:45<Rubidium_>well, yes it is the reason
16:47<Phoenix_the_II>he solved it
16:49*Sacro wonders if Bjarni has the middle name Olaffson
16:49<@Bjarni>why would I have that?
16:49<@Bjarni>besides what are you doing?
16:49<Sacro>just random pondering
16:49<@Bjarni>trying to spy on me?
16:50*Bjarni wonders if Sacro has the middle name Woody
16:51<@Bjarni>just random pondering
16:51<@peter1138>well i said "might" because "what?" does not confirm it
16:51<@Bjarni>now you want to change your name >_<
16:51<@peter1138>i guess my terse questioning doesn't translate :P
16:52<Sacro>Ethernet Link Layer Test Equipment
16:52<Sacro>how fun
16:52<@Bjarni>you ARE spying on me
16:53*Belugas goes home and salutes everyone
16:53*Bjarni salutes Belugas
16:53<Sacro>night Jean-Francois!
16:54*Bjarni wonders what Sacro is trying to accomplish
16:54<Sacro>tum te tum
16:56<Rubidium_>trying to upgrading his cardbox box to something made of wood?
16:56-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
16:56<@Bjarni>that's possible
16:57<Rubidium_>or bracing it with wood so he can insulate it with bubble wrap
16:58<@Bjarni>Sacro: btw how do you get internet connection to your cardboard box?
16:59<@Bjarni> <-- and we know how you get power
16:59<Brianetta>Sacro is livin' in a box? Livin' in a cardboard box?
17:00<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm compile warning bad?
17:00<Rubidium_>usually it is
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17:02<Gonozal_VIII>there are more different snow density thingies than there should be...
17:02<Gonozal_VIII>(more than those in sprites.h)
17:05<Gonozal_VIII>warning wasn't bad... fixed it anyways
17:07<@Bjarni>leaving warnings are bad as if you ignore unimportant warnings serious ones can drown in the warning shower
17:07*Bjarni tried that
17:07<@Bjarni>and I didn't even cause any of the warnings xD
17:08*Sacro does more digging
17:08-!-Diabolic-Angel [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:08<@peter1138>bugger this for a game of soldiers
17:08<@peter1138>i r sleeping
17:08-!-peter1138 [~petern@] has quit [Quit: bwaaahahaha, te eeeh eeehee boingk!]
17:09<@Bjarni>come on... we need some soldier training to impress Peter when he returns :)
17:10*Sacro hangs a "bugger this for a game of soldiers" sign on Bjarni's back
17:10<@Bjarni>dream on
17:10<@Bjarni>you don't even know where I am
17:10<@Bjarni>or who I am
17:10<@Bjarni>or what I am
17:10<@Bjarni>or why I am
17:10<@Bjarni>or what I'm saying :P
17:11<Sacro>Bjarni Olaffson Corfitzen
17:11<@Bjarni>and you trust that yourself?
17:12<@Bjarni>you are easily fooled
17:12<@Bjarni>besides what can you use that info for?
17:13<Rubidium_>hmm, Denmark has only one technical university?
17:13<@Bjarni>only one called Technical
17:13<Rubidium_>hmm, it also has less inhabitants than I expected
17:14<@Bjarni>less than expected?
17:14<@Bjarni>you don't know important stuff like that?
17:15<@Bjarni>well it's not the amount of universities that matters but the quality
17:15-!-Zaviori [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:16<Rubidium_>true, though multiple technical universities near eachother usually makes the quality higher
17:16<Eddi|zuHause2>well, denmark is only slightly larger than berlin
17:16<Eddi|zuHause2>and that one also has only one "technical" university
17:17<@Bjarni>we used to have that but it ended up with one major and the other one was just a sub section. The quality of the sub section got too low so they moved everything to the same place to ensure that one part shouldn't be worse than the rest
17:19-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:20<@Bjarni>we talk about universities and the fake professor runs away
17:20<Eddi|zuHause2>Sachsen-Anhalt does not have a "technical" university at all
17:21<@Bjarni>why am I not surprised?
17:21<Eddi|zuHause2>Sachsen has a TU Dresden and a TU Chemnitz
17:21<@Bjarni>newsflash: there are more people living in Germany than in Denmark
17:22<@Bjarni>there should be more places of education
17:22<Eddi|zuHause2>well, we have two normal universities
17:22<Gonozal_VIII>GetTileZ(tile) <-- how does that return the height?
17:22<Rubidium_>Bjarni: and lots of them go abroad to go to a university
17:22<Gonozal_VIII>or 0-15 * 8?
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>Berlin — Einwohner: 3.405.259 (8.) (30. Nov. 2006)
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>Dänemark — Einwohner: 5,4 Millionen
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>Sachsen-Anhalt — Einwohner: 2.439.192 (11.) (31. Januar 2007)
17:23<@Bjarni>some people at uni keep informing me that they think I should study abroad
17:23<GoneWacko>As far away from them as possible?
17:24<@Bjarni>I think it's mainly to make their "study abroad" office busy
17:24<@Bjarni>GoneWacko: I'm not sure
17:24<Eddi|zuHause2>Sachsen — Einwohner: 4.249.774 () (31. Dezember 2006)
17:24-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@] has joined #openttd
17:24<@Bjarni>just somewhere else
17:25<Rubidium_>more than 50% of the students psychology here are German
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17:26<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: src/tile_map.cpp- return h * TILE_HEIGHT;
17:26<@Bjarni>one professor here started wondering why all the Chinese students handed in similar solutions to his assignment. He thought it was a Chinese way of thinking but decided to change the assignment
17:26<@Bjarni>then all the Chinese students failed o_O
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17:27<@Bjarni>and no change for students from anywhere else
17:28<Gonozal_VIII>already found it eddi, thanks
17:28<Gonozal_VIII>and it works :D
17:28<@Bjarni>why not study at home?
17:28<Eddi|zuHause2>you do not get anything done at home...
17:28<@Bjarni>I have yet to figure out why you should study elsewhere when people show up here to study what I want to study
17:29<Gonozal_VIII>all unmovables get placed on the correct groundtile now :-)
17:29<Gonozal_VIII>well... except half desert...
17:29<Gonozal_VIII>i guess i should check neighbouring tiles for desert there
17:30<Eddi|zuHause2>no, you should reserve space for "desert-ness" in the map
17:30<Eddi|zuHause2>like it's done for tiles that grow grass and stuff
17:30<Gonozal_VIII>trees don't have half desert
17:31<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, that might be solveable, since trees can grow grass now
17:31<Gonozal_VIII>nothing has half desert...
17:32<@Bjarni><EddizuHause2> you do not get anything done at home... <-- you mean that if I'm at home I don't pay attention to my studies?
17:32<Gonozal_VIII>i guess then it's ok that unmovables don't have that too
17:32<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: depends what exactly you mean with "at home"
17:33<@Bjarni>like in my home country
17:33<@Bjarni>I don't know why I should be distracted more here than somewhere else
17:35<@Bjarni>the only thing I can imagine is a phonecall saying "come and remove some graffiti before it dries up" when I was writing a report. It happened only once
17:36<@Bjarni>if I should go elsewhere to study then it would be because I could learn something I can't learn here
17:38-!-divoafx [] has quit [Quit: Quitting]
17:39<Eddi|zuHause2>well, i got calls like "our tuba player went to holiday without telling us, and we have concert in two hours, can you come?" :p
17:39<Gonozal_VIII>what do you think about that patch?
17:39<@Bjarni>those are more fun
17:39<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: it's a pretty link
17:39<@Bjarni>maybe it's clickable too
17:40<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: you play at concerts?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>for certain definitions of "concert"
17:40<@Bjarni>amateur concerts?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause2>amateur concert, that quite fits it
17:41<@Bjarni>I thought of amateur when they include you AND their player leaves without telling them
17:41<@Bjarni>that's amateur in my eyes
17:42<Eddi|zuHause2>like, in a park with 200 listeners
17:42<Eddi|zuHause2>not usually in an opera with 2000 paying guests
17:43<@Bjarni>but you can play tuba for 200 people
17:44<@Bjarni>that's like 200 more than the max who listened to me playing music
17:44*Gonozal_VIII cries nobody is looking at my patch
17:44<@Bjarni>look we got a new town(channel) crier
17:45*Bjarni takes a look on all the removed lines
17:45<@Bjarni>looks like such a slaughter to remove so much
17:46<Gonozal_VIII>looks worse than it is, i replace most of it..
17:46<Gonozal_VIII>except that strange struct
17:46<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: why the {} at the switch cases?
17:46<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: you might know more about map related stuff than I do :(
17:46<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know^^ hq had those, looked good
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17:47<Gonozal_VIII>{ bad? should i remove them?
17:47<@Bjarni>they aren't needed but I always place them anyway
17:48<@Bjarni>well they are needed if you declare vars in the case
17:48<@Bjarni>maybe that's a C only thing
17:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i just noticed because they weren't there in the original lines, and are there in the replaced lines... kinda obscures the diff
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause2>bah, the syntax highlighting is off
17:50<@Bjarni>the coding style looks ok
17:51<@Bjarni>but I can't tell if you use the functions correctly
17:51<Gonozal_VIII>well.. it works
17:51-!-Osai^Kendo`off is now known as Osai
17:51<@Bjarni>then you should test a zillion weird combos to see if it still works :p
17:51<Gonozal_VIII>already bought the whole map^^
17:52<Gonozal_VIII>ok, not the whole^^ but a lot
17:53<Gonozal_VIII>now i even tested it in toyland^^
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17:54<@Bjarni>that's bad
17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: if you remove the foundation drawing, at least insert an assert for flat tile
17:54<@Bjarni>now we have to commit you to a mental institute
17:54<Gonozal_VIII>assert flat tile, kk
17:56<@Bjarni>a nice rule is whenever you presume something try to verify this fact with an assert
17:56<Gonozal_VIII>i think there's an assert for that in the maketransmitterbla
17:57<Gonozal_VIII>and lighthouse..
17:57<Gonozal_VIII>but pff
17:59<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: asserts are to not rely on the code elsewhere, in case someone changes that and forgets to apply the change in all places
18:00<Gonozal_VIII>yes i know... better safe than sorry
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18:03<fjb>Oh, the usuak suspects are still awake. :-)
18:04<fjb>Everybody who answered me yet.
18:05<fjb>Sacro ofcourse, too.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause2>single track sections always cause severe headaches
18:08<Eddi|zuHause2>instead of "programmable signals" we should have "programmable stations"
18:08<fjb>Most of the time. Some simple are without problems:
18:09<Eddi|zuHause2>where "station" does not mean "place where trains stop to load/unload" but "a place with at least one switch" [real railway definition]
18:09<fjb>I was thinking about some kind of programmable sign. That could also be implemented for road vevicles.
18:10<Eddi|zuHause2>within these "stations" (which do not necessarily need platforms at all) you can sort trains by cargo, length or destination
18:10<Eddi|zuHause2>and assign predefined tracks for them
18:11<fjb>The pathfinder had to advance a bit before thatwould make sense.
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18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>why? the pathfinder only needs to know that it will enter a station (that happens at the (mandatory!) "entrance signal")
18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>then it will make a callback to the station, which exit signals this train can come out at
18:12<Eddi|zuHause2>together with penalties
18:13<Eddi|zuHause2>then the pathfinder goes on from there
18:13<fjb>The pathfinder has some oddities sometimes.
18:14<fjb>And it should really learn how to find a usuful depot.
18:14<Gonozal_VIII>"Transmitters and lighthouses could be placed on foundation in the scenario editor before r12014. It wouldn't be nice to assert for old savegames."
18:14<Gonozal_VIII>now what?
18:14<Eddi|zuHause2>well, then don't remove the foundation drawing ;)
18:14<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm i could do that...
18:15<Gonozal_VIII>or just drop support for old savegames :-)
18:15<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: imho depots should not be used for servicing at all
18:15<Eddi|zuHause2>basic servicing should be done at stations
18:15<Eddi|zuHause2>"advanced" servicing should not be very often, maybe every 5 to 10 years
18:16-!-ben_goodger [~ben@] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
18:16<Gonozal_VIII>depots should be a station type
18:16-!-nzvip [~svip@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:16<fjb>That would help much. Trains really go wild searching for a depot. And they often don't take the nearest one, but the one that is most complicated to find back to the route.
18:16<Eddi|zuHause2>that can be done once you separate the term "station" from "platform"
18:17<Eddi|zuHause2>as well as you should separate the term "train" from "front engine"
18:17-!-jp473 [] has quit [Quit: jp473]
18:17<fjb>Platform types for diffent cargos would be possible that way. And maybe shunting. :-)
18:18<Eddi|zuHause2>,%2024.%20Dez%201939.png <- i mean single track sections more like this
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18:18<@Bjarni><fjb> Everybody who answered me yet. <-- actually I'm the law here so I can't be a suspect
18:18<@Bjarni>but the rest of you are
18:19<Sacro>I'M GUILTY
18:19<fjb>I had single track sections like that in my last game and gave eventually up on it and made double track. :-(
18:19<Eddi|zuHause2>hello mr. law, may i introduce myself, i am mr. objection
18:19<@Bjarni>Sacro: fine... I will just pick the statement that I see fit then
18:19<fjb>Bjarni: Lawmen are always suspect.
18:20-!-Zahl [] has quit [Quit: (~_~]"]
18:20<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: well, the problem is, double track will not solve the problem
18:20<@Bjarni>I'm the the law enforcer and the law maker and the judge in here
18:21<Eddi|zuHause2>the single track section works fine as far as trains travelling along that single track section is concerned
18:21<fjb>Bjarni: Maybe you could explain to me why the traction efford is not shown for the engines from the serbiasn narrow gauge set.
18:21<Eddi|zuHause2>the problem are trains trying to enter the station while it is full, the scenario which presignals were originally designed for
18:22<Gonozal_VIII>assertions gone, foundation code back
18:22<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: maybe it is not designed for that?
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18:22<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: Presignals are not working on single tracks most of the time because they are that stupid and are looking backward.
18:23<@Bjarni>fjb: err... I like the first part of the question better than the last part
18:23<fjb>The narrow gauge engines have TE encoded in the grf.
18:23<@Bjarni>I thought you wanted to ask about physics and now I am supposed to chase down a GUI bug?
18:23<fjb>Bjarni: Good that you like at least part of the question.
18:23<fjb>Bjarni: Lawmen are for chasing, aren't they?
18:24<Gonozal_VIII>hmm right... no tractive effort there
18:24<Gonozal_VIII>but standard gauge set has
18:24<@Bjarni>sounds like I have to take a look
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18:24<fjb>The narrow gauge rails replace the maglev rails. Maglevs don't have traction. Is that part of the problem?
18:24<@Bjarni>it's possible
18:25*Bjarni checks the GUI code
18:25<Gonozal_VIII>even in the details
18:25<@Bjarni>I think that's a good place to start
18:25<fjb>They are still called maglev when you choose which type to build.
18:25<Gonozal_VIII>grf string replacing doesn't work
18:26<@Bjarni>they are missing in detail window too?
18:26<@Bjarni>now that sounds bad
18:26<@Bjarni>but it narrows down where the issue could be
18:26<fjb>And sadly the new stations grf has the railtype in the picture sprites. :-(
18:26<Gonozal_VIII>i guess the code says: maglev... no te
18:26-!-Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: Zzz]
18:26<@Bjarni>I'm past guessing
18:27<Gonozal_VIII>yes, i had to fix a lot of sprites
18:27-!-Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
18:27<@Bjarni>I want proof
18:27<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Did you fix that grf already?
18:27<Gonozal_VIII>well... then i'll change track type
18:27<Gonozal_VIII>i fixed a lot of grfs
18:28<@Bjarni> byte sel_index; ///< deprecated value, used for 'unified' ship and road <-- I wonder why we keep that one. It's not used anywhere
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18:29<fjb>Hm, ships on the road and cars on the water. Sounds like military vehicles.
18:29-!-De_Ghost [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:29<Gonozal_VIII>yes, it's the tracktype
18:29<@Bjarni> /* Max tractive effort - not applicable if old acceleration or maglev */
18:29<@Bjarni> if (_patches.realistic_acceleration && rvi->railtype != RAILTYPE_MAGLEV) {
18:29<@Bjarni>that's the issue
18:30<@Bjarni>the last part of it
18:30<Gonozal_VIII>ha, i'll change that to monorail
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18:30<Gonozal_VIII>faster than moving all narrow gauge vehicles to monorail and transrapid to maglev
18:31<Gonozal_VIII>no buts!
18:31<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: What has to be changed in the newstations grf? Do you remeber?
18:31<@Bjarni>I'm not sure it's a good idea to hack the code like that
18:31<Chrill>Gonozal_VIII dont like butts?
18:31<@Bjarni>because then you need to hack the vehicle detail window too
18:32<@Bjarni>and the acceleration code
18:32<fjb>Bjarni: Could the code look if a grf replaced maglev?
18:32<@Bjarni>Chrill: I guess he is more into boobs than butts
18:32<Chrill>ah, so am I
18:32<Gonozal_VIII>i'll just search for all instances of railtype != RAILTYPE_MAGLEV)
18:33<Gonozal_VIII>build vehicle gui, train cmd and vehicle gui
18:34<GoneWacko>let's all type in bold because it's way cooler than writing in normal text
18:34<GoneWacko>or not.
18:34<fjb>The serbian narrow gauge set doesn't work with monorail. That would have been the easiest solution. But maglev is hardcoded in that set. The narrow gauge rails can replace every track type.
18:34<Gonozal_VIII>it does fjb
18:34<Gonozal_VIII>those action 7s were the first i removed
18:35<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Does it still find it's tracks then?
18:35<Gonozal_VIII>and for the vehicles you just have to replace 05 02 with 05 01 to get them to monorail
18:35<Gonozal_VIII>in the action 0s
18:36<Gonozal_VIII>and they are right after the strings in that grf... so easy to find
18:36-!-mindlesstux [~mindlesst@2001:470:1f07:16c:240:f4ff:fe52:a74e] has joined #openttd
18:37<fjb>I guess I will find it. It is sad that the patch is unable to have four railtypes yet. That would avoid that hacking.
18:37<fjb>Cound OpenTTD learn to have more than vour rail types? Or is that a problem with the map array?
18:38<@Bjarni>I don't think it would be hard to add more railtypes
18:38<@Bjarni>it's a planned feature
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>map array could be easily extended :P
18:38<@Bjarni>just like the new map array is a planned feature
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>i think i'll work on that a bit :-)
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>got some ideas
18:39<Rubidium_>why extend the map array for extra railtypes?
18:39<Rubidium_>or doesn't the map allow enough railtypes?
18:39-!-XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
18:40<@Bjarni>I don't think anybody actually checked if there is a free bit in the map array
18:40<Rubidium_>Bjarni: think again
18:40<@Bjarni>I meant right now
18:40<@Bjarni>of the people talking about it
18:40<@Bjarni>mainly Gonozal_VIII ;)
18:41<@Bjarni>and fjb
18:41<Rubidium_>but why do you need more 'free' bits?
18:41<@Bjarni>if we will have more than 4 railtypes more than 2 bits are needed but you bring up an interesting question
18:41<@Bjarni>about starting with checking how many we already have ;)
18:42<Rubidium_>done that, been there
18:42<fjb>How many do we have?
18:42<Rubidium_>saying it would be too easy
18:42<Eddi|zuHause2>narf, i was just about to say ;)
18:44<Gonozal_VIII> RAILTYPES_MONO = 1 << RAILTYPE_MONO, ///< Monorail!
18:44<Gonozal_VIII> RAILTYPES_MAGLEV = 1 << RAILTYPE_MAGLEV, ///< Ever fast maglev
18:44<Eddi|zuHause2>but being able to introduce more railtypes was planned since the start of the elrail project
18:45<Gonozal_VIII>who wrote those comments?^^
18:45<Eddi|zuHause2>svn blame?
18:48<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: while you are playing with ground tiles, m4 bits 3..0 stores fence and ground status, but values E and F are not used yet, that could allow for partial snow/desert?
18:48<Eddi|zuHause2>(for railway tracks i mean)
18:50<Gonozal_VIII>partial snow is not needed, that can be calculated
18:50-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:50<Eddi|zuHause2>not when you want the snow growing each cycle on newbuilt tracks
18:50<Gonozal_VIII>that would reqire something like 5 bits
18:51<Eddi|zuHause2>no, you have bare land [already there], little snow, more snow, full snow [already there]
18:51<Eddi|zuHause2>so two new states
18:51<Eddi|zuHause2>which fit in exactly the two free values
18:52<Gonozal_VIII>has to store the counter
18:52<Eddi|zuHause2>you don't need a counter, because you update immediately when you pass that tile in the tileloop
18:52-!-Diabolic1Angel is now known as Diabolic-Angel
18:53<Gonozal_VIII>why would there be bare land anyways?
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>when you build a rail, it starts out as bare land
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>then it grows grass/snow
18:53<Gonozal_VIII>you don't dig up the ground all around
18:53<Eddi|zuHause2>and then it builds fences
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>have you ever seen a construction site?
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>with the amount of vehicles and people crawling around there, there's not much grass left
18:54<Gonozal_VIII>yes, lots of signs, lots of colourful ribbons, no workers, nothing to be worked at
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18:55<Gonozal_VIII>that's a construction site :-)
18:56<Gonozal_VIII>and sometimes some workers standing around, smoking and drinking bear
18:56<@Bjarni>you already had enough
18:56<Chrill>Drunk Gonozal? :(
18:57<Gonozal_VIII>yes, i'm a heavy drinker, just like bjarni
18:57<Chrill>as am I, but I only do Coke
18:57<Chrill>Well, sometimes Sprite..
18:57<Chrill>but mainly Coke
18:57<Chrill>heavy drinker..
18:57*orudge` slips some vodka in Chrill's Coke
18:57<Gonozal_VIII>just the moment you wrote that i was nipping on my coke bottle
18:58<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: i think the main problem about this is that currently the ground is hardcoded in the railway sprite, that needs to be separated first
18:58<Eddi|zuHause2>so you have 3 layers, the ground tile, the track base and the track
18:58<Gonozal_VIII>shouldn't be hard, i did that with the unmovables too
18:59<Gonozal_VIII>static SpriteID GetUnmovableGround(TileIndex tile) <-- that new function
18:59<Rubidium_>you did not do the same with unmovables as you would need to do for railways
18:59<Chrill>orudge`, gtfo my Coke
18:59<Rubidium_>it's only a *very* small part
18:59<Gonozal_VIII>would require new sprites
19:00*orudge` likes Coke, and Pepsi
19:00<@orudge`>and vodka and coke/pepsi
19:00<@orudge`>and rum and coke
19:00<Gonozal_VIII>but a lot less sprites
19:00<Rubidium_>mountain dew
19:01<Gonozal_VIII>well... it's not really coke... it's some cheapo thing, freeway cola... and light^^
19:01<Rubidium_>coke isn't coke anymore either
19:01<Gonozal_VIII>just not the same without drugs...
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19:02<Chrill>Coke is unhealthy :(
19:02*Chrill throws Coke @ orudge`
19:02<Gonozal_VIII>they keep saying that.. but where's the proof?
19:02<@Bjarni>orudge`: you like mixing rum with stuff and then drink it?
19:03<Gonozal_VIII>rum & mud
19:03<Chrill>Bjarni, that exlpains his behaviour
19:03<fjb>Who had the bad idea that the backside, the underside and the rail / road of a bridge are one sprite? So every bridge set has to support evry road or railset.
19:03<@orudge`>Bjarni: occasionally
19:03<Chrill>Vodka and Red Bull <-- Instawin
19:03*orudge` goes to watch something
19:03<@orudge`>ta ta
19:03<Chrill>baii rudgie
19:03<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: you might also want to allow for a colour-remap-overlay for the trackbase, that way you could use "company colours" in the trackbase to change appearance depending on the ground sprites, for smoother connection
19:03<@Bjarni>400 years ago the buccaneers of Port Royal mixed rum and gunpowder and drank it
19:03<@Bjarni>ever tried that?
19:03<Chrill>Yeah sure
19:04<@Bjarni>I presume it game them quite a buzz
19:04<GoneWacko>Have you ever had brown-brown?
19:04<Gonozal_VIII>you could eddi but i don't think that would be necessary
19:04<@Bjarni>I don't even know what it is?
19:05<Gonozal_VIII>that's from lord of war, right?
19:05<GoneWacko>Brown-brown is a form of powdered cocaine, cut with gunpowder. Commonly given to child soldiers in West African armed conflicts,[1] the drug gained notoriety after it was used by Nicholas Cage's character, Yuri Orlov, in the 2005 movie Lord of War[2]. Consumed by insufflation, the gunpowder in the drug irritates the bowels which increases aggression.
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19:06<@Bjarni>remember what happened to the last person in here speaking of drugs?
19:06<Chrill>yeah, he got op
19:06<GoneWacko>I wasn't here to see it I think
19:06<Chrill>twas DorpsGek
19:07<GoneWacko>What are you getting at Bjarni
19:07<@Bjarni>he ended up getting perm banned
19:07-!-Diabolic-Angel [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
19:07<GoneWacko>for something completely unrelated I'm sure?
19:07<@Bjarni>not really
19:07<@Bjarni>he started showing pictures of his plants
19:07<@Bjarni>and how he didn't consider drugs to be an issue
19:08<GoneWacko>apart from it not being on-topic, I don't see the problem
19:08<@Bjarni>drugs are banned
19:08<GoneWacko>Not in the Netherlands (softdrugs anyway)
19:08<@Bjarni>there is nothing good about drugs at all
19:08<GoneWacko>and alcohol is rarely banned
19:08<Gonozal_VIII>i don't consider them an issue too as long as the people taking them don't put others in danger
19:08<@Bjarni>drugs funds terrorists
19:09<@Bjarni>so if we kill all drugs we kill a major income for them
19:09<SmatZ>not true
19:09<Gonozal_VIII>that's one of those lame things usa came up with
19:09<GoneWacko>Bjarni: what do you fund?
19:09<@Bjarni>as little as possible
19:10<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> that's one of those lame things usa came up with <-- no
19:10<Gonozal_VIII>well... then banning them makes it even easier for them
19:10<@Bjarni>it's a well known fact that terrorists in South America earn a fortune on cocaine and shit
19:10<GoneWacko>Drugs are not an issue, I don't take them myself but if someone wants to endulge themselves by all means let them go ahead.
19:10<Gonozal_VIII>they should control where they come from and the quality
19:11<SmatZ>Bjarni: if he grows it at home, it doesn't fund terrorist
19:11<@Bjarni>I know
19:11<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: what do you think american companies earn with drugs in south america?
19:11<@Bjarni>I have no idea
19:11<GoneWacko>Finally you tell the truth :]
19:12<Eddi|zuHause2>you don't honestly think they would let such a great money source slip...
19:12<@Bjarni>I know that Farc earns a fortune
19:12<@Bjarni>enough to arm a whole army
19:12<GoneWacko>I'm not going to say _I_ have an idea, but I'm not overly confident that you do, either.
19:12<GoneWacko>Do you know Farc well enough to know that they are 'evil'?
19:13<GoneWacko>as the saying goes, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter
19:13<@Bjarni>they are on the EU terrorlist
19:13<@Bjarni>that should be enough
19:13-!-Leviath [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:13<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: you know the "United Fruit Company"?
19:13<GoneWacko>I've never understood why the EU should even care about militants in another continent.
19:13<@Bjarni>besides they shoot and kidnaps civilians
19:14<Eddi|zuHause2>(now called "Chiquita")
19:14<@Bjarni>I know them by name
19:14<Eddi|zuHause2>it controlled like 100% of the fruit plantations in south america
19:14<Eddi|zuHause2>and worked together with the CIA to install and remove governments as they pleased
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19:15<@Bjarni>they aren't killing us in the process
19:15<Eddi|zuHause2>and i mean that litterally
19:15<@Bjarni>I know CIA did a lot of stuff in South America
19:15<Eddi|zuHause2>like if a government wanted to increase minimum payment for the local workes
19:16<Eddi|zuHause2>they'd coup against that government, and install Yet Another Dictatorship
19:17<@Bjarni>how is that different from EU gaining more power and money to themselves without elections?
19:17<GoneWacko>I don't even see how you're making the comparison.
19:18<Eddi|zuHause2>that's an awfully long way to come, indeed ;)
19:18<GoneWacko>I know nothing about either but learning about them now I don't see the relationship
19:18<@Bjarni>I guess I have to tell you about the Lisbon treaty then
19:20<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: i'm not saying that some EU regulations are not suspect, but it's a whole different thing than sending troops to remove democratically elected governments and install a dictator that is more likely to support your company's interest
19:20<@Bjarni>basically EU decided to allow a majority to rule instead of getting all countries to agree so according to the Lisbon treaty EU can rule that a country has to do something even if every single person in that country is against it
19:20<Eddi|zuHause2>and with EU treaties, at least the member states' representants must have had to agree
19:20<@Bjarni>they did some black magic to avoid having elections about this since France and the Netherlands voted no
19:21<@Bjarni>also it means that EU will get a president
19:21<Chrill>and his name will be Owen Rudge
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>honestly, with the recent growth of the EU, giving each country a veto right cannot possibly work anymore
19:22<@Bjarni>actually France talked about Anders Fog Rasmussen but only if Denmark joins the Euro
19:22<Chrill>Denmark sucks if they do
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>veto rights might be a good idea with 5 or 12 countries, but not with >20
19:22<Chrill>im offz im offz bai im offz
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19:23<@Bjarni><EddizuHause2> honestly, with the recent growth of the EU, giving each country a veto right cannot possibly work anymore <-- that's a valid argument but the constitution(s?) will not allow it without an election
19:23<@Bjarni>the s? is because I only read the Danish one not all of them
19:24<Gonozal_VIII>getting hundreds of millions of people to elect could be quite difficult
19:24<Gonozal_VIII>well... expensive
19:24<Eddi|zuHause2>elections are done all the time...
19:24<Eddi|zuHause2>that can't be an issue
19:25<@Bjarni>but in a democracy will you not have an election because it's too expensive even if the law says that you have to?
19:25<GoneWacko>Personally I would love nothing more than see the EU be disbanded and just keep the European Economic Community, I'm not a big fan of a United States of Europe idea
19:25<@Bjarni>wouldn't it be dictatorship otherwise?
19:25<Eddi|zuHause2>well, i think that both the euro and a european constitution are a good idea
19:26<+glx>but not the one they wanted to use
19:26<Eddi|zuHause2>"national" states have caused too much trouble in the past
19:26<GoneWacko>I love the Euro, I hate the idea that some guy from another country gets to decide what happens in mine, though :-)
19:26-!-LeviathNL [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:26<Eddi|zuHause2>glx: hence i did not say "the" constitution ;)
19:26<@Bjarni>looks like Eddi|zuHause2 ate all the German propaganda
19:26<Gonozal_VIII>i've read some science fiction story that had simplyfied elections where people can choose others to represent them in votes and elections... the vote of the representing persons counts multiple times then
19:26<GoneWacko>Like the Italian government, they seem to like criticizing the Dutch government when something unconventional happens :)
19:27<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: you can do that right now, too, you can give a person a "Vollmacht"
19:27<Gonozal_VIII>well bjarni, they are not good for us now... but they will be for future generations
19:28<+glx>we always blame Brussels
19:28<GoneWacko>Gonozal_VIII: that's hardly sciencefiction, most government work that way, in a sense
19:28<@Bjarni>in order to get the Euro to work then the EUR countries have to keep each other in strict control
19:28<GoneWacko>you pick a party based on how much what they stand for matches with what you stand for, and then the party does all the decisionmaking
19:28<Gonozal_VIII>well.. but what if all parties suck?
19:28<@Bjarni>otherwise inflation and stuff will ruin the economy
19:29<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: then you create one
19:29<GoneWacko>Gonozal_VIII: then you make your own party that doesn't :)
19:29<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: you can always start your own party
19:29<@Bjarni>that's why EU decided that if the economy is bad in a country then they fine it until they get a better economy
19:29<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: or let yourself be elected without party
19:29<Eddi|zuHause2>you just have to convince more than 50% of your local voters
19:29<Gonozal_VIII>i know, i know... but that doesn't work
19:29*Bjarni never understood the idea in "you have too few money. Now you will have to pay me each month until you have plenty again"
19:30<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> well bjarni, they are not good for us now... but they will be for future generations <-- and what makes you think future generations will not have the problems?
19:30<@Bjarni>presuming EU survives
19:30<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: it's not about "bad economy" it's about "unbalanced expenses"
19:31<ln->let's have Turkey as a member, then all problems will be solved.
19:31<Vikthor>(01:29:52) ***Bjarni never understood the idea in "you have too few money. Now you will have to pay me each month until you have plenty again" -- I always thought its more about you spend too much, so pay a fine
19:31<Eddi|zuHause2>i.e. "you can't spend more than you earn"
19:31<@Bjarni><EddizuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: you can always start your own party <-- somebody here did that 9 months ago with famous politicians and now they are down to 4 people :p
19:31<GoneWacko>it usually is a joke
19:32<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: they started a new party here a few years ago
19:32<@Bjarni>they meant it as a serious party but they did nothing but internal fights
19:32<@Bjarni>and it would appear that i was political suicide to join it
19:32<Eddi|zuHause2>and now they made it into 2 "Länderparlamente"
19:32<GoneWacko>some years ago we had Pim Fortuyn who made a party, they did incredibly well during the first elections, but because none of the people in the party had the faintest idea of politics they fucked up and they were never heard of again.
19:33<GoneWacko>Same thing is about to happen with another 'radical' party (led by a neonazi :])
19:33<@Bjarni>Denmark gained a new party like 10-15 years ago or so and now it's the 3rd largest
19:33<Eddi|zuHause2>a 5th force in the parliament really screws the existing system
19:33<Eddi|zuHause2>because none of the previous 2-party-coalitions have a majority anymore
19:33<GoneWacko>and luckily the dutch Paedo Party never managed to get enough finances to make it to the elections -_-
19:34<Eddi|zuHause2>it's the same with the federal parliament at the last election (where that new party started for the first time)
19:34<@Bjarni>GoneWacko: is that the party that wanted to lower the age of consent?
19:34<@Bjarni>good :)
19:34-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:35<GoneWacko>and the had a bunch of popular points on their agenda because they wanted to lure voters towards them
19:35<GoneWacko>such as legalization of hard drugs, to come back to what started this whole discussion.
19:35<@Bjarni>even if the rest of the policies might be good (I don't know them) then nothing could make up for having pedophile policies
19:35<@Bjarni>drugs are bad
19:35<@Bjarni>they lead to crime
19:35<@Bjarni>and crime leads to drugs
19:36<GoneWacko>not if they're legalized -_-
19:36<@Bjarni>that is what you think
19:36<GoneWacko>And the opposite is what you think.
19:36<@Bjarni>you don't know how many assaults that are due to people being affected by drugs
19:36<@Bjarni>or traffic accidents for that matter
19:36<Eddi|zuHause2>well, i can understand the abuse part of "paedophilism" being bad, but there was a time in europe where having sex with 12 year old boys and girls were a commonly accepted action
19:36<GoneWacko>Well the Dutch may be pretty famous for being open minded but we're not stupid enough to allow paedophilia (or in fact hard drugs, which I will agree on that they may not be a very positive force)
19:37<Eddi|zuHause2>just read a book about ancient greece
19:37<GoneWacko>Eddi|zuHause2: well I guess that according to nature it's all good
19:37<Eddi|zuHause2>you'll learn that young men took young boys as "pupils", teach them stuff, and also have sex with them
19:38<Eddi|zuHause2>later they get married to young girls
19:38<@Bjarni>people at the age of 12 are still children at heart and unsuited for being parents
19:38<GoneWacko>Nobody here is questioning that >_> (I think :|)
19:38<@Bjarni>I just made a statement
19:38<@Bjarni>not an argument
19:39<GoneWacko>ok. Go ahead then.
19:39<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: having an older and "experienced" (because he previously taught a young boy) husband kinda makes up for that
19:39<@Bjarni>so the conclusion to my statement is that if they aren't old enough to be parents then they aren't old enough for sex
19:39<GoneWacko>Heck I don't care about safe sex
19:39<GoneWacko>baby making sex, not until you're mentally mature
19:40<@Bjarni>all sex should be considered baby making sex
19:40<@Bjarni>nothing is for sure apart from not doing it
19:40<@Bjarni>and you should be prepared to deal with the results of your actions
19:40<GoneWacko>Are you terribly christian or something? :-p
19:41<Eddi|zuHause2>granted, in ancient greece, like in most old cultures, women were only considered "baby making machines", and had almost no social or political rigths
19:41<GoneWacko>Well, I just know you're going to argue now but, there's always aftermeasures if you really must
19:41<@Bjarni>I expected that question when I wrote what I just wrote
19:41<@Bjarni>but there is nothing religious behind it
19:41<GoneWacko>Bjarni: I was going to ask it back when you started about drugs ._>
19:41<@Bjarni>there are sanity, morale and logic thinking behind it
19:42<@Bjarni> <GoneWacko> Are you terribly christian or something? :-p <-- I tend to disagree with die hard Christians most of the time
19:42<Eddi|zuHause2>but honestly, this raising of "baby making" age to something like 26 (what appears to be current average) is something invented in modern times, ancient cultures couldn't have survived that way
19:42<GoneWacko>Well yes but sanity, morale and logic thinking can sometimes cause pretty boring lives :>
19:42<@Bjarni>and even when we agree the arguments aren't the same
19:43<Eddi|zuHause2>girls had to get children when they were biologically able to do so
19:43<Eddi|zuHause2>because the life expectancy was not very high
19:43<@Bjarni>but giving birth at the age of 12-13 were dangerous as well
19:43<TinoDidriksen>The prime age was 17.
19:44<@Bjarni>how do you know?
19:44<Gonozal_VIII>17 is still prime
19:44<@Bjarni>and there is a huge difference between being 12 and 17 both physically and mentally
19:44<GoneWacko>I don't think girls would start puberty at 12-13 back then, although I have no references to back up that assumption.
19:44<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: well i was thinking about between 14 and 18 to be the "best" time to get children
19:45-!-Sogard [] has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> <-]
19:45<Eddi|zuHause2>GoneWacko: i don't think the biology of humans changed much in the last 2000 years
19:45<GoneWacko>I know that these the age at which puberty starts is moving forward as of late though
19:45<@Bjarni>to have them or to start having them?
19:45<Eddi|zuHause2>except they appear to have got physically larger
19:46<Sacro>[00:45] <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: well i was thinking about between 14 and 18 to be the "best" time to get children <- oh aye ;)
19:46<GoneWacko>Eddi|zuHause2: but hygiene and such has, which has effects on quite a lot of things
19:46<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: well, it was not uncommon for women to die when giving birth
19:46<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: that's the food. The middle ages delivered poor food (for several reasons) so people were shorter
19:46<Gonozal_VIII>i've read that the weight has a high effect on the time when girls start being able to get children
19:46<@Bjarni>specially the weight
19:48<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: well, it was not uncommon for women to die when giving birth <-- I know but giving birth at an age where the body isn't ready for it is a high risk birth
19:48<@Bjarni>besides women still dies giving birth
19:48<Eddi|zuHause2>also, when only 7 of 10 born children reach puberty, you need to get a lot more children
19:48-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
19:48<@Bjarni>even on modern western hospitals
19:48<Eddi|zuHause2>wrong way around
19:48<Eddi|zuHause2>3 of 10 reach puberty
19:49<Eddi|zuHause2>7 of 10 die before puberty
19:49<@Bjarni>a hundred years ago it wasn't uncommon for children to die
19:49<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: sure, you cannot get risks to 0%
19:49<@Bjarni>everybody knew somebody who lost somebody
19:50<Eddi|zuHause2>the culture needs to ensure the 2.1 children for keeping population
19:51<Eddi|zuHause2>meaning children that reach reproductive age
19:51<@Bjarni>when I was at a cemetery once I found a grave of around that age. It contained 3 children of the age of 6 to 10 (or something like that) and they all died within two weeks
19:51<Eddi|zuHause2>well, modern "basic" illnesses might very well have been fatal without treatment back then
19:51<@Bjarni>I guess they got some disease or something
19:52<@Bjarni>but imagine what it must have been like for the parents
19:52<Eddi|zuHause2>excuse me if i won't do that ;)
19:52<@Bjarni>good point
19:52<@Bjarni>but you already did by giving such a statement
19:52<@Bjarni>sort of
19:53<@Bjarni>you decided that you don't want to because you presume something about what it would be like
19:53-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:54<@Bjarni>why is it that IRC starts with a topic (like here drugs) and then it ends up with people dying from lack of medicine
19:54<@Bjarni>and in between we talked about ancient Greece, EU and politics
19:54<GoneWacko>Sacro: are you just spamming random links or what D:
19:55<Sacro>GoneWacko: yaah, kinda ;p
19:55<Sacro>but only decent ones
19:55<Gonozal_VIII>as usual
19:55<Gonozal_VIII>hmm no
19:55<Gonozal_VIII>not the decent thing
19:55<Sacro>i mean i have ones i could spam, but they;'d probably get me kicked
19:55<Gonozal_VIII>you already lead the kick count
19:55<GoneWacko>I'm willing to bet that keeping the current behaviour is going to get you kicked as well :p
19:56<@Bjarni>Sacro: pictures of your rice cooker?
19:56<Sacro>Bjarni: she's gone back to china
19:56<Sacro>she got caught up in the snow
19:56<@Bjarni>you know for sure or do you just presume?
19:57<Gonozal_VIII>froze to death in the snow... btw who?
19:57<@Bjarni>the Chinese girl Sacro used to live with
19:57<@Bjarni>she went back to China recently
19:57<@Bjarni>or so he claims
19:58<@Bjarni>all I know is that she is not around Sacro anymore
19:58<@Bjarni>I don't know that for sure either
19:58<@Bjarni>she could be in the closet or under the floor
19:58<Gonozal_VIII>he's probably keeping her in the basement and just tells everybody she left
19:58<@Bjarni>that's the first thing I said
19:59<@Bjarni>when he told that she left
19:59<@Bjarni>"why didn't you just hide your Asian girl in the basement like everybody else?" or something like that
19:59<@Bjarni>Sacro: you never answered that one
20:00<@Bjarni>Sacro: that XP RAM trick... did you test it yourself?
20:00<Gonozal_VIII>yes... there are so many asian girls and they all looke almost the same... nobody notices if some of them are missing
20:00<@Bjarni>except the parents but they are too far away
20:00<fjb>Can somebody please give me a hint what action I have to look for so that newstations grf uses the right sprites instead of always the maglev ones?
20:01<Gonozal_VIII>that's a bug
20:01<Gonozal_VIII>maglev tracks shouldn't even be accessible
20:02<fjb>I guessed that it is a bug. There should be a way to fix it. But a hint which action is responsible for that bug would be great.
20:02<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think it's a bug in the grf
20:02<fjb>All other station sets are using the replacement tracks.
20:02<Gonozal_VIII>unless it comes with its own maglev tracks...
20:03<fjb>Oh, hm looks like it has some maglev track sprites in that grf.
20:03<fjb>How was that with the copyright? :-)
20:04<Gonozal_VIII>he always talks about copyright issues
20:04<@Bjarni>Sacro: you are avoiding the questions
20:04<Gonozal_VIII>he went feeding her
20:04<@Bjarni>that's the 2nd time today
20:05<Gonozal_VIII>some rotten fish, asian chicks dig that
20:05<fjb>We should avoid Sacro and get back to grf questions.
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20:09<Gonozal_VIII>now you broke the channel again
20:10<fjb>Sacro broke it.
20:10<@Bjarni>but he is not even here
20:10<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: afaik it's a known problem that station graphics need the track hardcoded in it
20:10<Eddi|zuHause2>same as bridge graphics
20:10<Gonozal_VIII>hmm no
20:10<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: I don't think so.
20:11<Gonozal_VIII>most don't have that
20:11<Gonozal_VIII>like industrial stations
20:11<fjb>newstations is the only grf that I know about having that bug.
20:11<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, MB talked about that problem somewhere
20:12<Gonozal_VIII>well... newstations is from mb
20:12<Eddi|zuHause2>geee... who'd have thunk :p
20:13<Gonozal_VIII>stations are stacked sprites first track then station
20:13<Gonozal_VIII>he would just have to add some blue
20:13<fjb>The question is now if there is an easy fix. Most of the station sprites don't have track graphics, they have transparent sections. So there should be no problem to display the right track graphics.
20:14<fjb>It looks pink, I think that are transparent parts.
20:14<Gonozal_VIII>did you decode it?
20:14<Gonozal_VIII>blue is transparent
20:14<fjb>What is pink then?
20:14<Gonozal_VIII>special stuff
20:15<fjb>The question is what special stuff that is.
20:15<Gonozal_VIII>try to change the pink to blue ;-)
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20:16<fjb>Hm, does ImageMagic have a filter for things like that?
20:16<Gonozal_VIII>gimp does
20:16<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: pink usually means wrong pallete
20:16<Eddi|zuHause2>try unpacking with -p 2
20:17<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: It is the windows grf.
20:18<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: exactly
20:18<Eddi|zuHause2>-p 2 means windows palette
20:18<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Thank you. I also made a palette for gimp already.
20:19<Gonozal_VIII>i even named the colours ;-)
20:20<fjb>Hm, ok, I didn't do that.
20:20<@Bjarni>you named it Bob?
20:21<Gonozal_VIII>the action colours like transparent, water cycle, company...
20:21<Gonozal_VIII>fire cylce :D
20:22<Gonozal_VIII>i'll have to use that some time^^
20:22<@Bjarni>hehe... I get your point
20:22<@Bjarni>nobody names colours Bob
20:22<@Bjarni>you named it Fred
20:22<Gonozal_VIII>yep :D
20:22<Gonozal_VIII>bob is robert!
20:22<Gonozal_VIII>that's my name!
20:23<@Bjarni>so naturally a colour named Bob could only be yellow?
20:24<Gonozal_VIII>i named magenta telecom :-)
20:24*Bjarni scratches his head
20:25<fjb>Ok, there is less pink in the sprites now.
20:25<Gonozal_VIII>they copyrighted it
20:25<@Bjarni>how can you copyright a colour?
20:25<@Bjarni>it's a wavelength
20:25<Gonozal_VIII>they can
20:25<Gonozal_VIII>but only for use in advertising...
20:26<Eddi|zuHause2>they didn't copyright it, they trademarked it
20:26<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a difference
20:26<+glx>like orange
20:26<fjb>The problem seams to be that he provided sprites for all track types with snow and without snow. So I guess he doesn't use the track sprites that the game provides but always his own.
20:26<@Bjarni>here the railroad company got asked for the RGB values in their signs and they said that it's a secret and copyrighted to them so he were not allowed to use that info anyway
20:26<@Bjarni>they copyrighted blue?
20:27<Gonozal_VIII>they should do that with all colours, then there would be much less ads everywhere^^
20:27<fjb>They didn't trademark it, but they tried to do it and failed.
20:27<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: honestly, i have no information about wether they failed or not
20:28<@Bjarni>what would happen if you watch a commercial on your TV and the colours on your TV is wrong so it's in the colour copyrighted to some other company?
20:28<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: different thing, art, i.e. the composition of colours, is bound to copyright
20:28-!-orudge` [~orudge@] has quit [Quit: be back later]
20:28<Gonozal_VIII>the advertising company would have to buy you a new tv then
20:30<@Bjarni>right now the colours are way off
20:30<@Bjarni>they are gone
20:30<@Bjarni>transformer started burning :o
20:31<@Bjarni>so I'm without a TV
20:31<Gonozal_VIII>your tv is a transformer? :O
20:31<Gonozal_VIII>i thought they were only cars and trucks
20:31<+glx>like all CRT
20:31<@Bjarni>230V->whatever voltage the tube used
20:32<@Bjarni>TVs tend to die in the high voltage part
20:32<Eddi|zuHause2>i like your usage of the word "used" ;)
20:32<@Bjarni>well the dangerous versions of dying anyway
20:32<fjb>I hate hexcode.
20:32<Gonozal_VIII>so it transformed into a robot, walked away and got shot by some guys with flamethrowers?
20:33<+glx>"modern" TV have a safety stuff to prevent implosion
20:33<@Bjarni>actually it transformed into something foul smelling and smoking and I unplugged it and ran outside with it
20:33<Gonozal_VIII>the glass at the front is much thicker than at the back, if something goes wrong, it's at the back
20:33<Eddi|zuHause2>honestly, the only TV that we threw away did not die, the brightness reduced after like 15 years of use, so it became unwatchable during daytime
20:34<@Bjarni>actually I'm not scared of explosions but flames would be bad
20:34<Eddi|zuHause2>so we bought a new one
20:34<Eddi|zuHause2>but computer monitors appear to die much faster
20:34<Gonozal_VIII>never had any dying tvs either
20:34<Eddi|zuHause2>usually in the power supply part
20:34<Gonozal_VIII>only suffering..
20:34<+glx>higher refresh rate
20:35<@Bjarni>I(if you include the family TV when I was younger) have had 3 TVs that started burning
20:35<@Bjarni>all of them by just a foul smell and then nothing because it was unplugged
20:35<@Bjarni>became unplugged
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20:35<Gonozal_VIII>i would blame your wiring or the power company for that
20:36<@Bjarni>I think I'm unlucky :(
20:36<Eddi|zuHause3>i have like 4 broken monitors around here
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20:36<Eddi|zuHause3>where one is not really broken, only when it was switched off, it sometimes needs an hour to switch on
20:36<Eddi|zuHause3>so it just sits around in suspend instead
20:36<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: not all of them died in the same building
20:36<@Bjarni>let alone the same town
20:36<ln->Bjarni: do you have a cat?
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20:37<Gonozal_VIII>don't blame it on cats, cats rock!
20:37<@Bjarni>it's not a pet issue
20:37<+glx>next time use an UPC ;)
20:38<Eddi|zuHause3>my guinea pigs used to chew on the wire-isolations ;)
20:38<Gonozal_VIII>do you have long hair and a long beard and happen to lay your head onto the air intakes a lot?
20:38<@Bjarni>no :)
20:39<+glx>hmm ups (I failed to remember the name)
20:39<Gonozal_VIII>cupply :-)
20:39<@Bjarni>oh you mean power surge protection?
20:39<@Bjarni>I have that NOW
20:39<Gonozal_VIII>that too i guess
20:40<@Bjarni>UPS is surge protection+battery power
20:40<@Bjarni>surge protection is spike protection only
20:40<@Bjarni>the latter is much cheaper
20:40<Gonozal_VIII>i know, i know
20:41<Gonozal_VIII>but it could bypass the battery if there is energy available or something like that^^
20:41<@Bjarni>the power supply is usually a perfect sine curve
20:41<@Bjarni>the output from the battery is not
20:42<@Bjarni>it makes the computer CPU buzz :s
20:42<ln->UPSes aren't exactly expensive either
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20:42<@Bjarni>a single UPS for common use is way cheaper than even a cheap computer
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20:42<@Bjarni>and when you upgrade your computer you can keep the UPS
20:43<Gonozal_VIII>remove the transformer from the pc and attach the battery directly...
20:43<@Bjarni>the battery usually lasts 6 years if you aren't using it much
20:43<@Bjarni>Gonozal_VIII: I wondered about that but it would void the warranty
20:43<@Bjarni>there is no DC output on the UPS either
20:43<ln->and considering how short most power outages are -- only 1 to 2 seconds -- even an old battery does fine.
20:44<Gonozal_VIII>or use a laptop...
20:44<@Bjarni>having an UPS rocks. I got so tired of disconnecting the computer every time we had thunder
20:44<Gonozal_VIII>i never do that...
20:44<@Bjarni>I know a guy who lost a computer due to lightning
20:45<Gonozal_VIII>i would attach the modem and router to the ups^^
20:45<@Bjarni>the lightning hit the power cables and travelled into the computer and fried everything
20:45<Gonozal_VIII>all power cables are underground in my town
20:45<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> i would attach the modem and router to the ups^^ <-- I already did that
20:45<@Bjarni>and used it to contact the power company when the power died
20:45<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, wood output reduced drastically, i had to take 3 trains out of the cycle
20:45<Gonozal_VIII>we have a telephone that works without power
20:46<Gonozal_VIII>just in case^^
20:46<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> all power cables are underground in my town <-- but not the transformer. You aren't 100% secured
20:46<@Bjarni>besides I bought the UPS before they put the cables into the ground here
20:47<Eddi|zuHause3>we thought about putting up a diesel powered generator
20:47<@Bjarni>me too
20:47<Gonozal_VIII>transformer is 5km away... i don't think the lightning would travel that far and end up in our house
20:47<@Bjarni>I even looked at one
20:47<@Bjarni>and decided that it shouldn't be that one
20:47<+glx><Gonozal_VIII> we have a telephone that works without power <-- we had that, but now we have IP-Phone
20:47<@Bjarni>it was brand new but I couldn't tell who made it so I asked the shop and guess what:
20:47<@Bjarni>it was a trading secret
20:48<Eddi|zuHause3>well, we have the fuel for the heating anyway
20:48<Eddi|zuHause3>we wouldn't need another tank, just the generator next to the boiler
20:48<Gonozal_VIII>it's one of those phones where you have to put your finger through a hole in a wheel and spin it :-)
20:48<@Bjarni>ohh... you would use the light oil (used for heating) for the generator?
20:49<@Bjarni>that's banned here
20:49<+glx>I still have this kind of phone, but can't use it now
20:49<@Bjarni>you are allowed to use diesel for heating though
20:49<@Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> it's one of those phones where you have to put your finger through a hole in a wheel and spin it :-) <-- I have some of those too
20:50<@Bjarni>and I know one who stopped using one because it generated so much noise that it killed the ADSL
20:50<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm not sure what you call "light oil", but it's the same consistence as diesel, except the colour
20:50<@Bjarni>well... two I think
20:50<Eddi|zuHause3>i know it's forbidden to power cars with heating oil, but i don't know about generators
20:50<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: it's light oil considering the alternative is fuel oil and you can use a shovel to move that. It's tar like
20:51<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: I think they included all stuff that's officially diesel powered
20:51<@Bjarni>you see the difference between the heating oil and diesel is that the heating oil is not as pure and not taxed that hard
20:51<Eddi|zuHause3>shovel? no, that's not what we have in the basement
20:52<Gonozal_VIII>fuel oil
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20:52<Gonozal_VIII>btw you can move water with a shovel too...
20:53<@Bjarni>there is an oil powered steam locomotive in Germany that is brought to pressure by burning wood. Then it uses the steam to heat up the oil and once the oil is at least 50°C they can start pumping it to the firebox
20:53<Gonozal_VIII>i have to do that a lot
20:53<@orudge`>Over here in Britain, you get "red diesel", which is basically the same as normal diesel, but is used for agricultural things (and is not taxed so highly). I think something similar is done for heating oil
20:53<Gonozal_VIII>it sucks
20:53<@Bjarni>they have to heat it first
20:53<@Bjarni>or else it's too thick for pumping
20:53<Gonozal_VIII>they do that with salt
20:54<@Bjarni>heat it with steam?
20:54<Eddi|zuHause3>orudge`: "heating oil" is coloured red here, "diesel" is coloured green
20:54<@Bjarni>or colour it?
20:54<Gonozal_VIII>they put iron oxide in to make it red and sell it cheaper for ice removal on roads
20:54<@Bjarni>heating oil is coloured green here and diesel isn't coloured
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20:54<@Bjarni>I think
20:54<Gonozal_VIII>diesel is green?
20:55<Gonozal_VIII>didn't know that
20:55<@orudge`>I learned the other day that diesel is banned in Brazil in cars. It's allowed in trucks, etc, though
20:55<@Bjarni>that's interesting
20:55<Gonozal_VIII>and no, i won't put diesel in my car just to see if it's green
20:55<@orudge`>I think there's some EU directive that wants to harmonise colourings in diesel, etc
20:55<@orudge`>or so wikipedia told me, if memory serves correctly
20:55<@Bjarni>if diesel is green in Germany and heating oil is green in Denmark because if they think you are cheating they will check the tank on your car for green liquid
20:56<@Bjarni>and if they find any then you are considered a cheater
20:56<Gonozal_VIII>solution: don't drive to denmark
20:56<@Bjarni>sounds like it
20:56<@Bjarni>but that's stupid that they picked colours like that
20:57<@orudge`>as long as none of you dye regular car diesel red, I guess
20:57<Eddi|zuHause3>i guess it's a different kind of green
20:57<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: hopefully
20:57<Gonozal_VIII>black :-)
20:57<@Bjarni>liquid coal
20:57<Eddi|zuHause3>i learned that one liter of red heating oil can dye thousands of liters of diesel red
20:58<@Bjarni>some Australian once designed a steam locomotive to use liquid coal
20:58<Eddi|zuHause3>so when you cheated once with heating oil, you can see that even after several regular refills
20:58<Gonozal_VIII>liquid coal wtf
20:58<@Bjarni>it was never built because nobody could figure out how to produce liquid coal
20:58<Gonozal_VIII>that sucks^^
20:58<Eddi|zuHause3>i learned that coal sublimes
20:59<Eddi|zuHause3>i.e goes directly from solid to gas when you heat it
20:59<Eddi|zuHause3>(without ability to burn)
20:59<@Bjarni>sounds right
20:59<@Bjarni>you heat it up and burn the gasses that escapes from it
20:59<Gonozal_VIII>and when you cool it down you get coal crystals?
20:59<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: coal crystals = diamonds
21:00<@Bjarni>I got to try that
21:00<Gonozal_VIII>different structure...
21:00<Gonozal_VIII>sp3 hybrid :-)
21:00<@Bjarni>btw you really burn the gasses in the coal
21:01<Gonozal_VIII>but usually stuff that goes directly from gas to solid forms crystals
21:01<@Bjarni>if you dig up coal and let it lie on the ground for a while before using it then the gasses will escape and you can't get the expected heat from it
21:01<@Bjarni>I know of two cases where steam locomotives got problems burning old coal
21:01<Gonozal_VIII>[03:00:46] Bjarni: btw you really burn the gasses in the coal <-- you make it sound like you ONLY burn the gasses... carbon burns fine too
21:02<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: but not solid carbon, you have to break out the carbon from the structure
21:03<Eddi|zuHause3>the main problem here is the initial energy it takes to get the coal structure to break up
21:03<Gonozal_VIII>yes... i guess if the engine design bases on those gasses to start the fire it's a bad thing
21:03<Eddi|zuHause3>which is the old coal problem bjarni mentioned
21:03<@Bjarni>I saw an locomotive (I think it was called ACE3000). It was designed to burn the coal to CO and then at a different place in the firebox it added more oxygen and burned the CO to CO2
21:03<Gonozal_VIII>that's the reason for the 15% gas in e85
21:03<@Bjarni>that's another engine they never built
21:04<Gonozal_VIII>what would be the use of that?
21:04<Eddi|zuHause3>Bjarni: trucks used that method to get fuel from wood after WWII
21:04<@Bjarni>we used it during the war
21:04<@Bjarni>even for trains :)
21:04<Gonozal_VIII>why for trains?
21:04<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't matter how it burns there
21:04<@Bjarni>also for trains
21:04<Eddi|zuHause3>well, during times of lack of regular fuel ;)
21:05<@Bjarni>the big trains used coal and the small ones that used oil could be converted
21:06<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: problem is that you can't get wood or coal into engines built for burning oil
21:06<Eddi|zuHause3>where oil= diesel or gasoline
21:06<@Bjarni>the principle is pretty simple. You have a fire with a lot of air that heats up some wood that burns with very little air (those two chambers are not connected but heat can move between them) and then you get CO from the low air fire
21:06<Eddi|zuHause3>so you fire up the wood in a separate place, with lack of oxygen, get CO which you can compress and feed the engine
21:06<@Bjarni>it cuts the engine max output in half compared to if it uses petrol
21:07<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: basically yes
21:08<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, the effectivity gradient can't be very good ;)
21:08<@Bjarni>when burning C to CO it releases 30% of the energy and the remaining 70% are released when burning CO to CO2
21:08<Gonozal_VIII>i guess how much the output is reduced depends on how much of the heat can escape
21:09<Gonozal_VIII>at least 30% then...
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21:09<@Bjarni><EddizuHause3> yeah, the effectivity gradient can't be very good ;) <-- it got nothing to do with the effectivity gradient. The engine can't supply more than half it's power when supplied with enough CO simply because CO is a worse fuel than petrol
21:10<@Bjarni>the engine don't care how much energy you waste when producing CO
21:10<Gonozal_VIII>should have used alcohol instead :-)
21:11<fjb>Ups, action 0 with a size of 25k.
21:12<fjb>In newstations grf.
21:12<fjb>26 * 20509 00 04 01 01 05 09 FF E0 ...
21:13<Gonozal_VIII>now that's some coding style^^
21:13<Gonozal_VIII>btw it's 20,5k
21:13<fjb>Oh, ok. Then it looks much easier.
21:14<@Bjarni><Gonozal_VIII> should have used alcohol instead :-) <-- but alcohol were in short supply as well
21:14<fjb>Even better: 34 * 58269 00 04 01 01 11 09
21:15<Gonozal_VIII>sure you didn't do something wrong with the decoding?
21:16<fjb>grfcodec -t -p 2 -d newstatsw.grf
21:16<Eddi|zuHause3>why -t?
21:16<Gonozal_VIII>what's -t?
21:16<fjb>Because it gave me lots of strange characters without.
21:16<Eddi|zuHause3>if -t does what i think it does, it is bad
21:17<@Bjarni> <-- finally found a picture of a generator. It's the horizontal metal thingie. The lower part were the fire with the high supply of air. The top were the low supply of air. Every 30 km (or less) they had to add more wood to the top and once they opened it a whole lot of smoke and CO went strait into their faces
21:17<fjb>-t Disable decoding of plain text characters as strings.
21:17<Gonozal_VIII>strange characters are norma
21:17<Eddi|zuHause3>-t prevents the conversion of strings into readable format
21:17<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: try nforenum
21:18<Gonozal_VIII>yay, co is healthy
21:19<Gonozal_VIII>attaches itself to the blood and keeps it from transporting oxygen
21:19<Gonozal_VIII>and everybody knows that oxygen plays a key role in aging
21:19<fjb>But the action 0s stay that big, even if I don't use -t...
21:20<Gonozal_VIII>i guess there's a lot of text in them
21:20<Gonozal_VIII>or not..
21:20<fjb>That doesn't look like text.
21:21<fjb>Looks like ordinary nfo code.
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21:21<Eddi|zuHause3>well, it just contains a lot of data
21:21<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't see the problem in that...
21:21<fjb>Oh, that was too much for Bjarni.
21:21<Gonozal_VIII>he should have splitted that...
21:21<Eddi|zuHause3>why would he?
21:22<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not meant for anyone to read
21:22<fjb>So what action puts the sprites together?
21:22<Gonozal_VIII>my idea for the map array that i talked about having earlier today goes in the same direction
21:22<fjb>I think he is using some macros.
21:22<Gonozal_VIII>some nfo in the map^^
21:23<Gonozal_VIII>number of things in that tile... and then it reads them
21:23<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: variable sized data doesn't fit into arrays very well...
21:24<Gonozal_VIII>the array has only a pointer for every tile
21:24<fjb>Oh, it must be somewhere in that action 00s...
21:24<Eddi|zuHause3>of course, but having pointers defeats most of the advantages of having an array
21:24<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: i would suggest reading
21:24<Gonozal_VIII>you have to keep those pointers somewhere^^
21:25<Gonozal_VIII>and then that pointer leads somewhere telling that the tile contains x things
21:25<Gonozal_VIII>and it starts reading those x things
21:26<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: the biggest advantage of having arrays is allocating in one step and caching big areas of continuous data, that is likely to influence your local calculations
21:26<Eddi|zuHause3>pointers remove both these advantages
21:27<Tefad>rawr why'd those jalapenos have to be so fresh on my sandwich
21:27<Tefad>my mouth, it burns.
21:27<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know enough about the data types available in c++
21:27<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: it doesn't have much to do with C++
21:27<Tefad>STL has vectors queues deques...
21:29<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: I'm already reading it. Understanding everything and mathing it with the hexcode in the grf is the problem.
21:30<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: inserting newlines and comments usually helps
21:31<fjb>And I should really try to make an own grf to understand more about it.
21:31<Gonozal_VIII>anyways... the pointer of each tile in the array would point to a array for that tile, those arrays consist of 1 - x fields with 8 bit each
21:32<Gonozal_VIII>how many fields depends on how many "things" are stacked there and the type of those
21:33<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Did you think about how much memory one pointer requires?
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21:33<Gonozal_VIII>so you have 4 million pointers in a 2*2k map then... who cares?
21:34<Tefad>wait i'm off by a factor of two
21:34<fjb>Each pointer is 4 to 8 bytes long.
21:34<Gonozal_VIII>memory is really not a problem...
21:35<Tefad>depends on the platform
21:35<fjb>Too much for embedded platforms.
21:35<Gonozal_VIII>can't run such a big map anyways
21:36<Eddi|zuHause3>the problem is not memory
21:36<Eddi|zuHause3>the problem is that the data the pointers point to are fractioned all across the memory
21:36<fjb>And you always have to derefence each pointer.
21:36<Eddi|zuHause3>so the caching effects go "flöten"
21:36<Eddi|zuHause3>and caching can easily make a speed factor of 20-100
21:37<Gonozal_VIII>what always fjb?
21:37<Gonozal_VIII>you don't change the map all the time
21:37<Gonozal_VIII>most of the time it's only read
21:38<Eddi|zuHause3>imagine a tileloop like the ones used for station catchment area
21:38<fjb>Even each time you read a tile you have to follow that pointer.
21:38<Eddi|zuHause3>you have like a 20x20 area of tiles that you walk each time
21:39<Eddi|zuHause3>in a normal array, you can get these cached
21:39<Eddi|zuHause3>so you have one big memory access
21:39<Eddi|zuHause3>and all the others only access the fast cache
21:39<Gonozal_VIII>why can't you cache pointers?
21:39<Eddi|zuHause3>if you have pointers, the data the pointers point to is completely randomly distributed
21:39<Eddi|zuHause3>so in the worst case, each pointer access causes a cache miss
21:40<fjb>You can cache the pointer, but not all the memory regoins where the data is located that the pointer is pointing at.
21:40<Gonozal_VIII>that's only one array... that shouldn't be scattered all around
21:41<Eddi|zuHause3>the array is not scattered
21:41<Eddi|zuHause3>but you have to malloc each pointer individually
21:41<Eddi|zuHause3>and each of these mallocs can return a random memory location
21:42<Eddi|zuHause3>you have no guarantee that the data of tile x is in close proximity of the data of tile x+1
21:42<Eddi|zuHause3>especially if you realloc space in case the tile changes
21:42<Eddi|zuHause3>like if the tile was empty, and used few memory, then there is a house built, and it uses much memory
21:42<Eddi|zuHause3>you need to realloc for the larger memory space
21:43<Eddi|zuHause3>but that new data doesn't fit in the old memory "window"
21:43<Eddi|zuHause3>so you need a place where you have big memory free
21:43<Gonozal_VIII>yes then it's somewhere else... but does it really take so long to access a pointer?
21:43<Eddi|zuHause3>at completely different location of the previous
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21:43<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, like i said
21:43<Eddi|zuHause3>cache misses take often 20 to 100 times longer
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21:44<fjb>Going from 4GHz to 400Mhz. :-)
21:44<fjb>And additional overhead.
21:44<Eddi|zuHause3>you not only have to fetch the data from the slow memory
21:45<Eddi|zuHause3>but also the cache will get a whole cache line (like 64kb) instead of that 10 byte you ordered
21:45<Gonozal_VIII>hardware sucks...
21:46<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Invent something better.
21:46<Eddi|zuHause3>it gets worse if you hit virtual memory
21:46<Eddi|zuHause3>that makes a speed loss of like factor 1000000 ;)
21:46<fjb>Oh yeah...
21:47<fjb>Swapping is fun.
21:47<Gonozal_VIII>so basically the map array is stuck at being an array?
21:47<Eddi|zuHause3>well, two arrays actually ;)
21:47<fjb>It has some advantages if it stays an array.
21:47<Gonozal_VIII>lots of arrays...
21:48<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: it is feasible if you divide the map into "supertiles" of like 16x16 or so
21:48<Eddi|zuHause3>and then have pointers between these
21:48<fjb>And I'm giving up on tht newstations grf.
21:49<Gonozal_VIII>abuse array space of different tiles^^
21:50<Gonozal_VIII>tiles that get too long store part of their information in other tiles^^
21:51<fjb>And if that tile changes?
21:51<Gonozal_VIII>gets messy if the other...
21:52<fjb>Then you end up with pointers again.
21:52<Gonozal_VIII>just some rules where to look
21:52<Gonozal_VIII>inside the same array
21:52<Eddi|zuHause3>you can get cache misses inside the same array
21:53<Eddi|zuHause3>not the whole array fits into the cache
21:53<Eddi|zuHause3>the whole point of a cache is LOCAL access
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21:53<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't have to split the stuff through the whole array
21:53<Gonozal_VIII>like your 64*64 thing
21:54<Eddi|zuHause3>the problem with your attempt is that if you e.g. have a house in a tile, and want to swap data to near tiles, the near tiles are most likely houses, too
21:55<Gonozal_VIII>houses are no problem, houses fit in
21:55<Eddi|zuHause3>houses are currently the biggest tiles
21:55<Eddi|zuHause3>so instead you should have a 16x16 array of basic data
21:55<Eddi|zuHause3>and if you have a house you create a new 16x16 array of house specific data
21:56<Gonozal_VIII>but a tile that has for example a maglev track with owner 1 on one corner, monorail with owner 2 on second, different signal on each tile, a tunnel with signals below and a bridge with signals above won't fit^^
21:56<Eddi|zuHause3>or if you have a subway layer, you are likely to have subway tiles in the near area, too
21:57<Eddi|zuHause3>so you open a new 16x16 array of subway tiles, which are the same as rail tiles
21:57<Gonozal_VIII>and that's not inefficient? pointer again...
21:58<Eddi|zuHause3>it's only 1/256 amount of pointers
21:58<Eddi|zuHause3>you only need one pointer per 16x16 area
21:58<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm yes...
21:58<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a tradeoff, less pointers, for possibly more "unused" memory space
21:59<Gonozal_VIII>you should make that a compile option :-)
21:59<Gonozal_VIII>big or small base array
21:59<Eddi|zuHause3>the main point is to keep the locality principle
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21:59<Eddi|zuHause3>if you want to cycle nearby tiles, you need to stay in the same cache row
22:00<Gonozal_VIII>i don't know anything about cache rows
22:00<De_Ghost>they are like magical elfs
22:00<Eddi|zuHause3>16x16 supertiles possibly do that even better than the whole map, because the map has that locality only in one dimension
22:00<Gonozal_VIII>i know
22:01<Eddi|zuHause3>but it complicates memory management
22:02<Eddi|zuHause3>because for a tile access you can't have a simple arithmetics anymore (start+index*itemsize)
22:02<Eddi|zuHause3>but you have to find out, in which supertile your tile is, and then also which layer of that supertile
22:03<Gonozal_VIII>shouldn't be too hard to calculate that
22:03<Eddi|zuHause3>not, hard, but slower
22:08<Eddi|zuHause3>Gonozal_VIII: it is quite probable that smatz already did such a thing with his tunnel patch
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22:09<Eddi|zuHause3>i didn't actually look at it
22:09<Gonozal_VIII>with dynamic space you could do all kinds of fancy things...
22:10<Gonozal_VIII>can't even imagine all the possibilities
22:11<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, everything that assumes distribution is sparsely over the map, but dense locally
22:11<Eddi|zuHause3>it is entirely feasible that you have a map layer for each company
22:12<Eddi|zuHause3>which means you can reduce the saving of "owner" bits in the map
22:12<Eddi|zuHause3>as this is done implicitly
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22:13<Gonozal_VIII>would be no problem to have for example crossings with tracks of a different company... and different tracktype even
22:14<Eddi|zuHause3>well, it will complicate "compatibility" checks
22:14<Eddi|zuHause3>as you have to cycle all defined layers for this tile
22:15<Eddi|zuHause3>to get an idea what is actually currently on this tile
22:15<Gonozal_VIII>only for placing rail... you do that once
22:15<Eddi|zuHause3>also for drawing
22:15<Eddi|zuHause3>you do that often
22:15<Gonozal_VIII>drawing has to access all layers anyways
22:16<Eddi|zuHause3>or for pathfinder access, which gives penalties for road crossings
22:17<Eddi|zuHause3>but honestly, i would suggest you to read smatz's patch first
22:17<Gonozal_VIII>all that pointers are bad stuff makes me a sad gono
22:18<Gonozal_VIII>also i have a test in about 6h....
22:18<Gonozal_VIII>software engineering
22:19<Gonozal_VIII>should probably be sleeping
22:19<Eddi|zuHause3>software engineering does not teach much about the efficiency of pointers ;)
22:20<@orudge`>hm, my last exam was software engineering. Went better than I expected
22:20<fjb>But you should be sleeping anyway.
22:20<Eddi|zuHause3>all you need to know is the waterfall model and the V model, and one or two design patterns
22:22<Gonozal_VIII>not to forget the spiral model...
22:22*Belugas congrats orudge
22:22<Eddi|zuHause3>only if you want to get 1.0 and impress the professor ;)
22:22<Gonozal_VIII>our professors improved that one... so i'm quite sure that will come...
22:23<@orudge`>well, have to wait for the results now :p
22:23<Gonozal_VIII>i should have learned instead of coding...
22:23<Eddi|zuHause3>you have seveal proffessors working on the same subject?
22:24<Eddi|zuHause3>or rather s/al prof/ral pro/
22:27<@Belugas>orudge: 1) you performed 2) you were prepared enough to find it easier
22:28<@Belugas>makes it a pretty good sing in my book :)
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22:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r12018 /trunk/src/ (main_gui.cpp transparency_gui.cpp tree_cmd.cpp): -Fix(FS#1721,r9563): Restore initial intent on the invisible tree while transparent building patch setting
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22:36<Eddi|zuHause3>i have a diesel/electric mismatch
22:37<@orudge`>Belugas: true, we'll just have to see ;)
22:37<Eddi|zuHause3>i have around the same electric local trains as diesel local trains
22:37<Eddi|zuHause3>i have around half electric long distance trains as diesel long distance trains
22:37<Eddi|zuHause3>but i have twice as many electric freight trains as diesel freight trains
22:39-!-TinoM| [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:43*Belugas is gone sleeping
22:43<@Belugas>see you
22:47<@orudge`>ta at
22:55<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: Why do you care for that?
22:55<Eddi|zuHause3>care for what?
22:55<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a statistical oddity
22:57<fjb>Electric trains are often more powerful.
22:57<fjb>What train set are you using?
23:00<fjb>I guess I would have even more electric locomotives with that set.
23:01<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, it's kind of a problem that diesels do not have as much diversity
23:02<fjb>I don't see that as a problem. Diesels are for branch lines and not yet electrified main lines.
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23:03<Eddi|zuHause3>yeah, but at almost any time there is a differentiation for local electrics, long distance electrics and freight electrics
23:03<Eddi|zuHause3>but only one diesel engine
23:04<fjb>In which year is your game?
23:04<Eddi|zuHause3>and "realistically" only a small part of the system should be electrified in the early times
23:04<Eddi|zuHause3>i am 1967 right now
23:05<fjb>Then you should have the V100 and V200.
23:05<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, i know which engines i have ;)
23:05<Eddi|zuHause3>but V100 is only suitible for slightly used branch lines
23:06<Eddi|zuHause3>i hardly have any of those
23:06<Eddi|zuHause3>(very few towns, very few industries)
23:06<fjb>There were not that more diesels in reality beside the shunters.
23:07<fjb>V200 for fast trains, V100 for local service.
23:07<fjb>Heavy freight trains were still hauled by steam engines.
23:08<fjb>Or electric engines ofcourse.
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23:08<Eddi|zuHause3>i got rid of all steam engines by now
23:08<fjb>They are expensive to use.
23:08<Eddi|zuHause3>i use V100 for "collecting" freight trains, and a few side line local passenger trains
23:09<Eddi|zuHause3>V200 for local trains on main lines, express passenger trains and "delivering" freight trains on main lines
23:09<fjb>I tried to talk MB into adding some more diesels or BR 23 for the 50s and early 60s.
23:10<Eddi|zuHause3>i think i read that
23:10<fjb>There is a gap for branch lines before the V100 comes out.
23:10<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, i noticed that
23:10<Eddi|zuHause3>the V140 disappears very fast
23:11<Eddi|zuHause3>and has very short lifetime
23:11<fjb>V80 would be nice. Or even starting earlier V36. That could be used in double traktion.
23:11<Eddi|zuHause3>only like 15 years compared to the ~45 years of most other engines
23:12<fjb>V140 is crap. It was only experimental and not used in reality.
23:12<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, but it is a diesel engine, and it is available ;)
23:12<fjb>It was a proof of concept, only one build.
23:12<fjb>But it is not that useful in the game.
23:12<Eddi|zuHause3>to my understanding, only the war stopped a series ordering of that engine
23:13<fjb>Yes, but the V140 would have to be modified for the big orders. And it would have been longer availlable in the set then.
23:14<Eddi|zuHause3>and, not everything must be 100% realistic, there are also gameplay issues to balance
23:14<fjb>There could be a better usable machine with that few ids that TTD has.
23:15<Eddi|zuHause3>but V140 could be used on branch lines until V100 comes out
23:15<fjb>V140 was not production ready in real and it is too short availlable in game.
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23:15<fjb>But you can not buy one when you need one. Try to buy a machine for branch lines 1960.
23:15<Eddi|zuHause3>and i have no real use for VT 95, because passenger amounts even in villages is too big
23:16<fjb>VT 95 is nice to get a line started, or for the passenger destinations patch.
23:16<fjb>And you can buy it longer.
23:17<Eddi|zuHause3>but the physics engine does not like VT 95 + undriven Trailer
23:17<fjb>But what du you use on a branch line when you have to pull a freight train in 1960?
23:17<Eddi|zuHause3>it can't even get to max speed
23:17<fjb>Start downhill. :-)
23:18<fjb>Did the V95 have an undriven trailer? Hm, maybe it had one. Or was that also driven?
23:19<Eddi|zuHause3>MB's site says traditionally it had one driven and one undriven part
23:19<Eddi|zuHause3>and the later series could be steered from the undriven wagon
23:20<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, i have a branch line featuring VT 95 in quadruple-traction ;)
23:21<Eddi|zuHause3>(replaced BR 38 + 2-axle wagons)
23:21<fjb>Don't let MB catch you.
23:22<Eddi|zuHause3>why? i have seen such trains
23:22<Eddi|zuHause3>trains consisting of 4 or more "railbusses"
23:22<fjb>I would vote for V80 and BR 23 to add to the set.
23:22<fjb>But that were not VT95.
23:22<Eddi|zuHause3>unlikely, yes, as they were in east germany ;)
23:23<fjb>VT98 maybe.
23:25<Eddi|zuHause3>VT 11 is available very short...
23:26<fjb>MB said they are availlable longer in TTDP.
23:27<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, i have a feeling that OTTD has shorter availability times than are stated in the readme
23:27<Eddi|zuHause3>my oldest engines i have are some ET 87 and E 16
23:28<fjb>Frosch said that OpenTTD follows the specs. So the specs are wrong or TTDP has a bug.
23:28<fjb>E16 is nice.
23:29<Eddi|zuHause3>E 16 is nice, but it doesn't have nice liveries for long distance trains, not even mitropa wagons
23:29<Eddi|zuHause3>and there isn't E 18 to make up for that
23:30<Eddi|zuHause3>so E 10 is the first real long distance electric engine
23:30<Eddi|zuHause3>and that's a damn long time
23:30<fjb>E18 is in version 0.9 of that set.
23:30<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, but do you have version 0.9 of that set? ;)
23:31<fjb>E16 is also for long distance. And the trains at that time were green, at every distance.
23:31<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, green, sure, but that red wagon inbetween makes the difference ;)
23:31<fjb>No, only a few betatesters have. And I have the feeling we don't see version 0.9 this year.
23:34<fjb>Coding that hex codes lasts ages. I don't know if MB uses some preprozessor and macros. But I almost doubt it so fluent how he is in nfo.
23:35<Eddi|zuHause3>i think i have more E 94 than E 50
23:35<fjb>Hm, takes ages.
23:36<fjb>E94 are cheaper.
23:36<fjb>I tried to talk MB into BR151.
23:36<Eddi|zuHause3>what is that?
23:37<Eddi|zuHause3>apart from a freigt engine ;)
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23:39<Eddi|zuHause3>i only know the east german 251, which was a 25kV/50Hz engine for the Rübelandbahn
23:40<fjb>It is the successor of BR 150.
23:40<fjb>It is still in wide use.
23:40<fjb>Kind of a freight version of BR 103.
23:41<Eddi|zuHause3>the Rübelandbahn stopped using electric traction
23:41<Eddi|zuHause3>i guess mainly because of the decline of the industry in the area
23:41<fjb>I know, I read about it.
23:41<Eddi|zuHause3>the last thing i heard was that the engines should be sold to romania or something
23:43<Eddi|zuHause3>there is not much use for a 25kV engine in germany ;)
23:43<fjb>They have an unsual electric system as far as I know.
23:45<Eddi|zuHause3>well, the Rübelandbahn was very far away from the usual electric rail system, so it couldn't be fed with 15kV and 16 2/3 Hz, so they took 25kV/50Hz from the local power station
23:46<Eddi|zuHause3>i think i went once with that train
23:46<fjb>That was the easy part. But all locomotives had to be modified.
23:47<Eddi|zuHause3>not modified, they built new engines
23:47<Eddi|zuHause3>they used steam engines before
23:49<Eddi|zuHause3>i think they still have one such steam engine in Rübeland
23:49<Eddi|zuHause3>and they kept two electric engines in Blankenburg
23:49<Eddi|zuHause3>(other end of that track)
23:50<fjb>But they didn't make a completely new engine design.
23:51<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i don't know the specifics
23:51<Eddi|zuHause3>but it would be a stupid thing to do ;)
23:52<Eddi|zuHause3>besides, other countries built 25kV/50Hz engines previously
23:52<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not like it's a new technology
23:53<Eddi|zuHause3>16 2/3 Hz was originally used to reduce sparks in the engines
23:53<Eddi|zuHause3>with newer technology, that was unnecessary
23:53<Eddi|zuHause3>only by then it was too late to switch all existing engines to 50Hz
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23:59<fjb>16 2/3 Hz technology is kind of a problem today.
---Logclosed Wed Jan 30 00:00:50 2008