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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-02-07

---Logopened Thu Feb 07 00:00:05 2008
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00:51<Gonozal_VIII>tomatos may be slow... but eventually they catch up
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01:37<De_ghosty>anyone have a hp laptop?
01:38<Forked>nx7010 .. it's a few years old now
01:38<Forked>meh, time to get ready for work
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01:59<Gekz>Translate my soul.
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01:59<Gekz>What language is my soul in?
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02:17<Gekz>peter1138: I demand the translation :D
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02:32<Forked>urgh, did I just break some licensing stuff by just putting win32 binary up without the source?
02:33<De_ghosty>no idea
02:33<Noldo>well not that much because the place where you can get the sources is quite obvious from the thread context
02:33<De_ghosty>but i can't get my laptop to boot from partition it came with
02:33<De_ghosty>so i'll jsut dl the damn vista cd..
02:34<De_ghosty>it's legal in canada :)
02:36<De_ghosty>i have enough ram for the whole os and whatever i am running
02:36<De_ghosty>how i kill the window page file?
02:36<Hendikins>I'd suggest not doing that.
02:36<Hendikins>Even if you've got 4 gig of RAM or something.
02:37<De_ghosty>can i minimize the page file until it's needed?
02:37<De_ghosty>swapping is slowwwwwwwwwwwww
02:38<Hendikins>Most apps allocate more RAM than they need, so swapping the excess allocated out to disk is actually a good thing.
02:38<De_ghosty>that's ok
02:38<De_ghosty>i have more
02:38<Hendikins>Want to improve the speed of swapping? Set a fixed size swap file.
02:38<Forked>mmm. coffee.
02:38<De_ghosty>yea it's at 200 now
02:38<Hendikins>De_ghosty: Yeah, but it is better to keep the allocated but unused RAM available instead of doing nothing.
02:39<De_ghosty>or is it?
02:40<Hendikins>Because it isn't swapping out actual data, and the physical RAM freed up can be used for things like disk caching.
02:41<Hendikins>The main performance killer with Windows swapping is the constant resizing of the swapfile. Hence my suggestion of setting it to a fixed size.
02:41<Hendikins>(Bonus: it won't get fragmented)
02:41<De_ghosty>what u set it to?
02:42<Hendikins>It would vary depending on amount of RAM.
02:42<De_ghosty>4 gb
02:42<Hendikins>You poor thing.
02:42<De_ghosty>i know
02:42<De_ghosty>but 2 gb sticks were too expensive
02:42<De_ghosty>and vista just sucks
02:43<Hendikins>I mean the XP part.
02:43<De_ghosty>yea i know
02:43<Hendikins>Well, Windows in general.
02:43<De_ghosty>it's still faster
02:43<De_ghosty>app are made for window
02:43<Hendikins>My next box is going to be have dual quad core processors, and a minimum of 8 gig RAM
02:43<De_ghosty>it'll be slower if i run nix under it
02:43<Hendikins>I'm just waiting for the B3 stepping Opterons
02:43<Hendikins>De_ghosty: My laptop is faster with Linux than Windows.
02:44<De_ghosty>but u don't play games on it
02:44<Hendikins>Pfft, games.
02:44<De_ghosty>ur in openttd
02:44<Hendikins>OpenTTD runs very nicely on Linux, I might add.
02:44<De_ghosty>ah well
02:44<De_ghosty>i need more
02:46<@peter1138>dual quad core :o
02:47<Hendikins>Yes. dual quad core.
02:47<Hendikins>And guess what, it won't be running Windows.
02:47<Hendikins>Xen again...
02:47<Hendikins>...I should probably be slapped for that pun.
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02:49<Gonozal_VIII>wtf dual quad core
02:49<Gonozal_VIII>isn't that octcore or something then?
02:50<Hendikins>No. It is dual CPUs, with 4 cores per CPU.
02:50<Hendikins>Just like my current pair of single core CPUs does not equal dual core.
02:50<Gonozal_VIII>anything that can actually use that then?
02:50<Hendikins>make -j :P
02:51<Gonozal_VIII>try with openttd :P
02:51<Hendikins>It will make an awesome build box.
02:51<Hendikins>Gonozal_VIII: I was primarily going to be doing it with Mozilla, to be honest.
02:52<Hendikins>Parallel Mozilla builds.
02:52<Gonozal_VIII>uh... why?
02:52<Hendikins>That, and I'm the x86_64 build contributor for SeaMonkey
02:53*Hendikins does a LOT of Mozilla building
02:53<Gonozal_VIII>those little shrimp thingies?
02:54<Gonozal_VIII>browser part like firefox?
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02:55<Gonozal_VIII>because i use firefox and firefox rox^^
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02:58<Gonozal_VIII>that looks like netscape...
02:59<Tefad>firefox pisses me off
02:59<Tefad>i'd rather be using webkit
02:59<Tefad>firefox 4.0 might actually be decent.
02:59<Gonozal_VIII>what's wrong with ff?
02:59<Tefad>firefox is full of crazy marshalling.
03:01<Tefad>roadmap says 3.0 is to have reduced marshalling, and i think 4.0 is to have it gone completely
03:01<Tefad>it makes the browser very inefficient
03:01<Gonozal_VIII>inefficient in what sense?
03:01<Tefad>for one
03:02<Tefad>i just want an alternative is all
03:02<Tefad>firefox eats up half my RAM and i have to restart it like i used to do windows 98.
03:03<Gonozal_VIII>didn't do that to me since update to 1.5 or something
03:03<Gonozal_VIII>oh, i did a bad
03:04<Gonozal_VIII>now it opens ~120 instances of that seamonkey thingy
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03:05<Hendikins>Tefad: Part of that is it automagically choosing a cache size.
03:06<Gonozal_VIII>read the logs, changed pagefile size from system managed to 2000 - 2000
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03:15<Hendikins>And for trivia value, I'm running my browser with an 8 meg memory cache and disabled disk cache.
03:16<Hendikins>I've got a squid proxy running on my network. A browser disk cache is somewhat redundant.
03:17<Gonozal_VIII>no idea what you're talking about but i'm sure it's lots of fun
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03:19<Tefad>i have squid proxy too
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04:06<Gonozal_VIII> <-- teh yays!
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04:12<Gonozal_VIII>oh, peter still up too
04:14<@peter1138>As it's 9:14am, I don't think 'still' applies...
04:15<Gonozal_VIII>10:15 am :-)
04:15<Noldo>11 !
04:16<Gonozal_VIII>11 zum ersten... zum zweiten.. und der zuschlag geht an noldo!
04:17<Gonozal_VIII>(that was german i guess)
04:18<Gonozal_VIII>somebody downloaded my new patch merge Gonozal_VIIIIN thingy :D
04:18<Gonozal_VIII>Downloaded 1 time <-- see?!
04:18<Gonozal_VIII>now i'm a star!
04:19<@peter1138>You'll curse the day you ever made a combined patch available...
04:20<Gonozal_VIII>i can always just start ignoring it and pretend it never happened^^
04:21<Noldo>you did iy yourself, don't try to fool us
04:22<Gonozal_VIII>why would i download a file, that i uploaded myself some minutes before?^^
04:22<Noldo>to bump the counter
04:23<Gonozal_VIII>wow, 3 downloads now
04:23<Gonozal_VIII>after 20 minutes :D
04:23*Forked compiles
04:23<Gonozal_VIII>that's 216 downloads per day^^
04:23<@peter1138>C:\Documents And Settings\Gonozal_VIII\Desktop\mybigpatch.patch
04:23<@peter1138>C:\Documents And Settings\Gonozal_VIII\Desktop\mybigpatch.patch(1)
04:23<@peter1138>C:\Documents And Settings\Gonozal_VIII\Desktop\mybigpatch.patch(2)
04:24<@peter1138>We know that's what you have
04:24<Gonozal_VIII>my username on the laptop is not gonozal_viii :P
04:25<Forked>try %userprofile%\Desktop\ next time :p it's bulletproof!
04:25<Forked>unless it's a foreign version of the os.. and it's windows
04:26<Gonozal_VIII>btw that's all just a shameless approach to get people to use my own patch for terrain sprites under unmovables^^
04:27<Gonozal_VIII>or something like that
04:27<Forked>was I not suppose to remove that before patching? :p
04:28<Gonozal_VIII>at least i didn't include my version that also draws shores for unmovables^^
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04:28<Gonozal_VIII>that one checks for all unmovables on certain slopes the neighbouring tiles for water^^
04:31<Gonozal_VIII>did it work?
04:32<Forked>it compiled, but I can't start it .. but thats because I'm at work :)
04:37<@peter1138>Lock the doors and turn the sound off
04:37<Forked>glass windows into my office :\
04:38<Gonozal_VIII>baaaad feng shui
04:38<Forked>also there is way too much to do here :p
04:38<Gonozal_VIII>i noticed that you're very busy :P
04:42<Gonozal_VIII>i changed the target of my openttd shortcut to "C:\OpenTTD\openttd.exe -d pbs=2" to see the reserved pbs paths.. but that opens not only the game window but also a console window...
04:44<Gekz>console windows rock
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04:46<@peter1138>Gonozal_VIII, put "debug_level pbs=2" in autoexec.scr?
04:46<@peter1138>(Just guessing)
04:46<Gonozal_VIII>why would i do that?
04:50<@peter1138>It would stop the console window appearing.
04:50<@peter1138>(If it worked... currently I can't get it to see autoexec.scr :o)
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04:50<Gonozal_VIII>i could change the size of the console window to very tiny^^
04:50<@peter1138>ah, it doesn't use search paths
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04:51<Forked>peter1138: the win32 build I put up of rev 12072 with yapp included.. should I also post source in the same directory on my webserver to not violate licensing stuff?
04:52<Forked><-no good with (reading) licensingstuff :p
04:53<Gonozal_VIII>you think michi would sue you?^^
04:57<@peter1138>technically you only need to provide the source when requested
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04:57<@peter1138>although presumably you need to specify a way of requesting the source
05:01<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12079 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Fix: Use search paths when opening console scripts.
05:01<@peter1138>There. Now you can use scripts/autoexec.scr properly...
05:02<Gonozal_VIII>but i still don't know what that is
05:02<@peter1138>It's a list of console commands to automatically execute on start up.
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05:02<Forked>"If you want the source code this is compiled from all you'll have to do is put your right hand on your left big toe, do the hokey pokey, punch a hole in the wall and then yell really loud at me in #openttd" ?
05:03<@peter1138>Forked, something like that...
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05:03<Forked>the hole needs to be documented :)
05:03<@peter1138>It's only really an issue when someone has their own patch and doesn't include the source patch.
05:04<Forked>ok, thanks
05:05<Forked>I just don't want to step on any toes :) .. or be more annoying than I already am :p
05:06<Gonozal_VIII>yay i found that file
05:07<Forked>Gonozal_VIII: should I make a win32 binary of your combination of patches as well?
05:08<Gonozal_VIII>if you have webspace free for that... would be nice
05:09<Forked>poor vista people
05:09<Gonozal_VIII>windows thinks .scr is a screensaver
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05:11<@peter1138>Never judge a file by its extension.
05:11<Gonozal_VIII>yay script thingy works
05:11<Gonozal_VIII>thanks :-)
05:12<Gonozal_VIII>dead end bouncing leads to dead trains
05:12<@peter1138>Known issue...
05:13<Gonozal_VIII>yapf issue...
05:13<@peter1138>I'm going to assume that that at least is not the "user's fault" for incorrect signalling.
05:13<@peter1138>PBS issue, not Yapf.
05:14<Gonozal_VIII>well as far as i understood pbs reserves the path it gets from yapf
05:14<Gonozal_VIII>and yapf doesn't look beyond the next order or looks for the way back at track ends
05:15<Forked>I sense the lack of will to do anything more work related before lunch .. I guess I'll work in the unused time before I head home :\
05:16<@peter1138>That gives me 7 hours...
05:16<Gonozal_VIII>hmm it reserves a path with a train on it
05:17<@peter1138>Disallowing that, and disallow crossing a reserved path, should remove all possibility of crashes.
05:17<Gonozal_VIII>and that path doesn't get deleted after the crash
05:18<@peter1138>For some reason, crashes with PBS seem to be desired by some people.
05:19<Forked>dumdidum.. not the fastest laptop to compile on
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05:19<Forked>there we go..
05:20<Gonozal_VIII>should remove all possibility of crashes <-- there are still the trains that drive around without path... lost, no orders, bounced off a track end...
05:21<Gonozal_VIII>even if other trains wait in front of a signal because they are in the way, the pathless will keep moving until they reach the front of a signal... or the front of a train
05:22<Gonozal_VIII>oh strange
05:22<Gonozal_VIII>trains with no orders reserve a path
05:22<Gonozal_VIII>even after bouncing
05:23<Gonozal_VIII>but they come to a complete stop at every signal
05:24<Gonozal_VIII>now i had two trains crashing that were both on reserved paths
05:25<Gonozal_VIII>they reserved the same signal tile
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05:26<Gonozal_VIII>well... lots of possibilities to let trains crash... but if you know how to use it correctly it improves the station and junction layout a lot
05:28<@peter1138>Yeah, no-deadlock through stations are a massive win.
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05:32<Gonozal_VIII>can't think of a good way to get rid of all crashes without trains that stop where they shouldnt (not in front of a signal)
05:36<Gonozal_VIII>for example that: depot, straight track out of the depot that ends in nowhere and 2 pbs signals on that track facing the depot... on the way back are only signal backsides so the trains can't stop anywhere but after the first train passed the second pbs signal, the second train gets a free path from the first to the second
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05:38<Gonozal_VIII>second train waits patiently in front of the second signal until the first train crashes into it..
05:42<Gonozal_VIII>only way to avoid that would be if the first train reserves the full path out of the depot and back without clearing it the first time
05:43<Gonozal_VIII>well... not only way
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05:47<Gonozal_VIII>could also be that way: train reaches end of track (not a station)... it's stuck until you reverse it manually
05:47<Gonozal_VIII>a don't reverse anywhere except in stations policy...
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05:52<Gonozal_VIII>and in depots obviously, can't leave a depot without reversing^^
05:53<Gonozal_VIII>but not in front of signals and not at the end of tracks.. should solve most (or even all) crashes
05:54<Gonozal_VIII>bah... tired... sleep.. good night
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06:33<pm|away>hi smatz
06:33-!-pm|away is now known as pm|workbreak
06:34<SmatZ>hello planetmaker
06:41<pm|workbreak>with a bit of tuning I really like the PBS patch :)
06:42<pm|workbreak>have you tried it ^^
06:42<pm|workbreak>^^ ?
06:43<SmatZ>I tried the first version, but it was not very stable - maybe it is better now :)
06:43<SmatZ>like train crashing...
06:50<pm|workbreak>it's still easy to find situations to crash trains.
06:50<pm|workbreak>you must not have trains which cannot find a direct path.
06:50<pm|workbreak>w/o any stations in between.
06:51<pm|workbreak>but station efficiency can be greatly improved :)
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08:38<Tim_>Hi guys!
08:40<Tim_>I have winxp and want to compile a binary conatining 2 different .patch files... I know how to compile ONE patch file with BuildOTTD, however, it seems not to be possible to compile 2 patches with it. Is that possible with this TortoiseSVN?
08:40<Forked>sure.. apply both patches to the source ..
08:40<Forked>then make one patch from that, using tortoisesvn
08:41<Tim_>okay... i'm not very skilled at this stuff... so step for step... I have my 2 patch files, what do i do first, use TortoiseSVN and apply both patches?
08:42<Rubidium>chances are though that a) applying the second patch fails horribly, b) the compilation fails horribly and c) the binary fails horribly (crashes and such)
08:42<Tim_>hehe i guess...
08:42<Tim_>But how to try it anyway?
08:42<Forked>see if both patches you want are already in this pack:
08:43<Tim_>unfortunately not...
08:43<Tim_>i want yapp and pax destinations
08:43<Forked>I see this in that thread: long_filename_with_passdest_r12075.patch [439.94 KB]
08:43<Tim_>ah wait...
08:45<Tim_>just seen that...
08:45<Tim_>but still, how does it work to combine patches?
08:45<Tim_>Is it just merging the 2 patches with tortoisesvn to one new one and then compile it with buildottd?
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08:47<Forked>you check out a rev of the source both patches should work with .. apply them to the trunk you just got.. create one patch from that and use that in buildottd.. then pray and hope it works
08:50<Tim_>Would be great if there was a site where all those things would be explained... But only thing i got is the Forum Thread, in which the explanation is rather crappy...
08:50<Forked>probably a reason buildottd only has support for one patch(file) :)
08:51<Forked>wiki has info on how to use visual studio c++ express I belive
08:51<Forked>alot of work though
08:51<Tim_>if i just make svn checkout it downloads all the files from the website... THAT is the source then?
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09:04<Forked>yes.. if I understood you correctly.. try the wiki .. it has alot of info about compiling :)
09:05<Tim_>Well, what i did now was using TortoiseSVN: "SVN Checkout" (downloads the source), add patch #1, add patch #2, rightklick "create patch" and compile this with buildottd
09:05<Sacro>Tim_: not from the website
09:05<Sacro>from the svn repo
09:06<Tim_>yeah but tortoisesvn does that automatically, doesn't it?
09:06<Tim_>with svn checkout...
09:06<Tim_>however, i compiled the patch in the forum... seems to work :)
09:06<@peter1138>not if you only check out trunk
09:07<@peter1138>checking out / is way too much, heh
09:07<Tim_>but it works that way?
09:07<Tim_>i don't know what you mean by "checking out trunk" ... ;-)
09:07<Tim_>ah yes
09:07<@peter1138>rather than svn://
09:07<Tim_>that's what i did...
09:08<Tim_>i did /trunk ;-)
09:08<@peter1138>Right, then you don't have the website ;)
09:08<Tim_>and is my described way the right one?
09:08<Tim_>TortoiseSVN: "SVN Checkout" (downloads the source), add patch #1, add patch #2, rightklick "create patch" and compile this with buildottd
09:09<@peter1138>or just compile what you checked out
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09:09<Tim_>how you mean?
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09:10<Tim_>argh, and a question btw... where are my settings beeing saved?
09:11<Tim_>like new grfs or patch settings
09:11<+glx>in openttd.cfg
09:12<Tim_>But if it is as easy as i described... Why is there no tutorial telling exactly that??
09:13<Noldo>how to build a piece of software?
09:13<+glx>the wiki contains a lot of info about the config file
09:13<Tim_>i mean it's not like i am a complete retard, still it took me days just to figure out how to make a working build out of a patch file
09:13<Tim_>Can i compile with TortoiseSVN btw?
09:13<+glx>it's not a compiler
09:14<Tim_>i was wondering because peter said: "[15:09] peter1138: or just compile what you checked out"
09:15<De_ghosty>that is right
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09:15<Noldo>you don't have to apply any patched to compile
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09:16<Tim_>yeah okay but then i would just get the latest nightly, wouldn't i?
09:16<@peter1138>checkout source. apply patches. compile.
09:17<Tim_>checkout source. apply patches. create patch. compile.
09:17<Noldo>why create?
09:17<@peter1138>see, that's an extra step
09:17<Tim_>yeah that's what i don't get, how to skip that
09:17<Noldo>why do you do it in the first place
09:18<Tim_>i mean i have that folder with the source + extra patches
09:18<Noldo>it's not like you are able to compile the patch anyway
09:18<Noldo>Tim_: patch files or applied patches?
09:18<Tim_>okay slow now^^
09:18<Tim_>what i do now!
09:18<Tim_>is apply the patches @ tortoisesvn
09:18<Tim_>then create a .patch file
09:18<Tim_>and compile that patch file with buildottd
09:19<Noldo>do that if it works for you
09:19<Tim_>What would be the other way? I apply patches with TortoiseSVN, then i have a source code with the additional patches in it...
09:19<Tim_>How do i compile that then?
09:20<Noldo>with a compiler, but it's not as straight forward as using BuildOTTD
09:20<@Belugas>the only valid other way would be to install a decent compiler
09:20<Tim_>Okay, then i guess i will stick to BuildOTTD
09:20<+glx>msvc express works (and is easy to install)
09:21<@Belugas>and personally, that is THE best way to go
09:21<+glx>builottd already installed mingw/msys
09:21<+glx>so you can use this compiler too without the buildottd frontend
09:21<De_ghosty>read the
09:21<De_ghosty>wiki manual on
09:21<De_ghosty>it's pretty decent
09:22<Tim_>should i maybe write a good tutorial for the development forum?^^
09:22<Noldo>well, everybody who has ever writen any programs knows it
09:23<Tim_>and what about the poor users who just want to play with pax destinations or so?
09:23<Tim_>like me? :D
09:23<Nicko[work]>hi all
09:24<Tim_>i mean, what would help already was just to write in that "How to apply a .patch/.diff file" that you can just download BuildOTTD and you're done in 10 seconds
09:24<Tim_>if not applying more than one .patch file
09:24<Nicko[work]>i've got a patch for russian town names. how about including it into the main tree?
09:25<+glx>make it a grf :)
09:25<+glx>we won't add town names patch as it is possible to do that with action F newgrfs
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09:27<+glx>Nicko[work]: I made two samples in (converted 2 ottd generators into action F)
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09:28<Nicko[work]>i see..
09:29<Nicko[work]>my list is real-city-names-array-based, like spanish or french
09:31<@Belugas>Nicko[work], what glx have shown you can do that too
09:31<@Belugas>no more no less
09:31<@Belugas>no less and way more
09:31<+glx>and a name list is even easier to code :)
09:33<Forked>funny how compiling stuff is alot harder in windows than linux :\
09:33<Tim_>Hey, here comes a question... I'm just reinstalling everything that got to do with TTD as i had different versions laying all around my harddisk.... Is there a way i can set up a similar save location for all my builds i'm using?
09:33<Forked>I guess windows developers spend their time on OH SHINY STUFF IS COOL rather than make it usable for more stuff :)
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09:34<Noldo>Forked: compiling is just normal using in *nixes
09:34<Forked>Noldo: it should be in windows too :p
09:35<Noldo>it's not like people are compiling new versions of office or let alone the windows kernel all the time
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09:36<Forked>true, but open source is in use more and more :) (ye I don't really have any good points other than "it would be easier for me the few times I do compile stuff in that OS")
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09:40<@Belugas>Forked, it is not harder to compile on Windows than on *nix
09:40<@Belugas>it's just a matter of the right setup
09:40<Forked>Belugas: it was a bitch to install vc c++ 2003 express and get it working.. then suddenly it borked :)
09:40<saati>Belugas: but it is much harder to get the right setup
09:41<@Belugas>Windows customer base is not the same as *nix, therefor it is not built the same,nor the tools availabel are the same
09:41<@Belugas>*nix is done by and for computer savvy to a certain extend
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09:42<@Belugas>not the case in Windows
09:42<@Belugas>so, you might need a LITTLE knowledge in order to set it up
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09:42<@Belugas>Forked, if it borked, it's becasue you made it broke
09:43<@Belugas>saati, it all depends on what you want to do
09:43<@Belugas>and... everything is not always working out of the box in *nix either...
09:44<@Belugas>there are plus and minus in every system
09:44<@Belugas>that's all
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09:44<Forked>Belugas: no no, I think support for 2003 was removed because it failed for no properly logged reason when compiling
09:45<@Belugas>well... give us proper fix then
09:45<Forked>I'm not blaming you or any other openttd developer for it
09:45<Forked>and I'm not complaining about anything that has to do with openttd :p
09:46<+glx>it failed for internal compiler error
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09:47<+glx>and express 2005 and 2008 are free
09:47<+glx>and they work
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09:50<Forked>so does buildottd for most things :) I like it
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09:51<yorick>it seems that the reservation bit is set to false on all rail tiles when loading not-pbs savegame or creating one with michi_cc's patch?
09:53<yorick>assertions must always be passed true, right :O?
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09:56<yorick>isn't it better to just make it barred when it's not barred in road_cmd.cpp line 1382?
09:58*yorick just keeps asking questions until someone answers
09:58<@peter1138>[14:51] <yorick> it seems that the reservation bit is set to false on all rail tiles when loading not-pbs savegame or creating one with michi_cc's patch?
09:58<@peter1138>obviously, there was reservation bit before...
10:00<yorick>and the 3rd question?
10:01<@peter1138>well, presumably it was put in for a reason
10:01<@peter1138>it should already have been closed
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10:02<yorick>can't you replace the warning light with a automatic system to fix it?
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10:13<DJ-Nekkid>hi dudes...
10:14<DJ-Nekkid>i may have a bug in the yapp
10:14<DJ-Nekkid>got saves
10:14<DJ-Nekkid>rev 12062
10:14<DJ-Nekkid>atleast trains crashed :)
10:16<yorick>that is not very strange ;)
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10:17<yorick>modifiing while trains are running upon, lost train, reversing, waypoint?
10:17<DJ-Nekkid>it might be me tho...
10:17<DJ-Nekkid>well, not really
10:17<DJ-Nekkid>if i fast forward it happens again
10:17<yorick>what is the problem exactly?
10:18<Brianetta>DJ-Nekkid: Are you saying that trains are passing red signals?
10:18<DJ-Nekkid>got a 8 line station with 3 loops
10:18<DJ-Nekkid>either they pass a red, or the reserved paths arent reserved enough ...
10:18<Sacro>Brianetta: you should run a PBS server :P
10:18<Brianetta>Sacro: If the next stable has it, perhaps
10:19<DJ-Nekkid>shal i post them + a screenie in the yapp server ?
10:19*Sacro is now playing: Game & Watch [Game & Watch]
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10:22<yorick>DJ-Nekkid: I'm in the yapp server
10:22<yorick>show it there
10:22<Sacro>so, how to use the pbs
10:23<Sacro>yorick: zomg server?
10:23<@peter1138>how? place signals where trains should stop.
10:23<Sacro>D: password
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10:23<Sacro>peter1138: so prototypical?
10:23<@peter1138>a la
10:24<Sacro>it is almost prototypical already
10:24<@peter1138>default red!
10:25<Sacro>now i should start doing my UK Signals thread
10:25<Sacro>and implementing correct shunt signals :D
10:25<DJ-Nekkid>im kinda short on time atm, but it looks like when there are a x'ing path; with opposite diagonals it dont counts it as beeing reserved... but i'm back a bit later
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10:34<Sacro>so you only need station starters
10:38<Eddi|zuHause3><Tim_> Hey, here comes a question... I'm just reinstalling everything that got to do with TTD as i had different versions laying all around my harddisk.... Is there a way i can set up a similar save location for all my builds i'm using? <- since 0.6, all savegames get stored in "My Documents" (or something)
10:38<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, he's gone
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10:53<DJ-Nekkid>yorick: are you talking about the opencoop dev server?
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11:03<Sacro>!seen Tekky
11:07<Sacro>oh fuck that was a big crunch
11:09<Sacro>michi_cc: <- that doesn't work :(
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11:10<k3ks>just a short question, is there an effort in building electric railways instead of non electric?
11:11<yorick>if you have electric locs ;O
11:11<k3ks>k, so it's only about the locs
11:11<k3ks>i'll try this emediatly
11:15<Sacro>yes, it seems that lost trains don't check routing
11:15<Sacro>and also
11:15<@peter1138>Sacro, well, that's just lines... where are the signals?
11:15<Sacro>the rear engine is clearing blocks too soon
11:15<Sacro>peter1138: on that diagram?
11:16<Sacro>a pbs 1 way before 31
11:16<Sacro>normal after
11:16<Sacro>and then for Q
11:16<Sacro>pbs 1 way at left side, and a normal after 32
11:16<Sacro>normal after 33 to R
11:16<Sacro>and pbs 1 way before 33 from R
11:17<CIA-5>OpenTTD: glx * r12080 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix: update waypoint signs when changing language
11:20<@peter1138>Like but on the other side...
11:20<@peter1138>Seems to work for me...
11:20<Sacro>peter1138: exactly
11:20<Eddi|zuHause3>Sacro: place PBS at the entrance of junctions, place NO signals at the exit of junctions
11:21<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause3: no other signals at all?
11:21<@peter1138>like in my image
11:21<Eddi|zuHause3>Sacro: let 1 train length distance between the junction and the next signal
11:21<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause3: nice idea
11:21<Eddi|zuHause3>so a train waiting at the signal will not block the junction
11:22<Eddi|zuHause3>Sacro: it's not exactly my idea, the wiki explains signal placement in quite some detail
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11:34<@Belugas>"Digging In the Dirt, Find the places we've got hurt"
11:35<yorick>michi_cc: this makes crossing close when they get reserved with your patch:
11:35<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause3, i can't recreate your problem with signal tiles not being reserved :o
11:35<Eddi|zuHause3>peter1138: it might be a rarely occuring case, as the E 94 is not 2 full wagons long
11:35<Eddi|zuHause3>the distances between signals and the length of the train must match
11:38<Sacro>peter1138: how is the pbs patch looking in terms of trunkable?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause3>Sacro: still many train crashes
11:39<yorick>he asked peter1138
11:39<@peter1138>I delegated to Eddi|zuHause3
11:39<yorick>I think the next release will solve many problems
11:39<yorick>like lost trains crash, waypoint crash
11:39<@peter1138>like "Sacro> yes, it seems that lost trains don't check routing"
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11:39<yorick>reversion crash
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11:40<yorick>I think the rest has to do with faulty signals
11:40<Sacro>yes, i admit, it does take a bit of getting used to
11:40<yorick>it should check and warn you
11:41<yorick>or use fake trains to test the junction
11:42<yorick>inflatable trains!
11:42<Forked>hmm, when removing signals with drag (select signal and press "r") it only removes the one signal where I started, not the rest that should be marked for removal by it
11:43<Forked>hold ctrl down removes all in it's path though
11:43<yorick>talking about PBS or normal signals?
11:43<yorick>one-way or normal pbs?
11:44<yorick>because it just works for me ^^
11:45<Forked>normal rail (non-el) .. but it's gono's patchpack - so I'm not calling it a yappbug atm :)=
11:45<yorick>it isn't
11:45<yorick>it works for me
11:47<yorick>what's the function that checks if there's a vehicle on a given tile?
11:52<k3ks>may it be, that, if i build an airport between to city and both lay in the "einzugsgebiet" still only one is affectet?
11:52<Sacro>right, now we need yellow signals
11:53<k3ks>sry, don't know the english word
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause3>"catchment area"
11:53<Sacro>crunch :D
11:53<k3ks>thx *g*
11:58*Sacro has a passenger line
11:58<Sacro>5 stations
11:58<Sacro>DMUs running 1-3 and 3-5
11:58<Sacro>and a HST running 1,3,5
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12:00<Sacro>now we need passenger destinations
12:01<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r12081 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
12:01<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Rename table/roadveh.h to table/roadveh_movment.h
12:01<CIA-5>OpenTTD: It is more descriptive name and it will not upset the generate script anymore
12:02<Eddi|zuHause3>i have 225 stations
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12:05<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... i need a "don't pass here" signal that doesn't say "this is a safe waiting location" from the other side
12:07<Sacro>this pbs works really nicely
12:07<Sacro>i have all my stations as bidi
12:08<Eddi|zuHause3>well, allmost all my stations wer "bidi" before, i am trying to improve them one by one now ;)
12:09<Ash_>Can someone recommend me how to do this with pre-signals, or a better way? ->
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12:09<Sacro>presigs are so last week
12:10<Sacro>try the new PBS build
12:10<@peter1138>yeah, presignals can't fix that
12:11<Ash_>Ah, right. What's the PBS build, just out of interest?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause3>Figure 4.2 is exactly what you need
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12:16<Ash_>Ah, that's awesome.
12:17<Ash_>I can't wait.
12:17<Eddi|zuHause3>Ash_: btw. 90° turns are ugly, avoid them
12:17<yorick>what's the correct syntax for patch.exe included with mingw?
12:17<Eddi|zuHause3>yorick: for git diffs, "patch -p1 -i <patchfile>"
12:17<Eddi|zuHause3>for other diffs, "-p0"
12:17<Ash_>Eddi|zuHause3: Oh, I do. I didn't realise I had one in the example.
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12:20<Ash_>I'm getting a game crash connecting to a network server. What can I do to report it, aside saying "the game crashed"?
12:21<yorick>what happened?
12:21<yorick>did you want to connect using a patched version?
12:22<Eddi|zuHause3>the exact error message it delivered would be nice...
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12:23<Ash_>I'm using plain old 0.6.0-beta3. When the map downloaded, the game shut down and debug mode said:
12:24<Ash_>It's working now though. That's after 4 tries. :-/
12:24<yorick>seems to occur more
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12:24<yorick>happens when connecting takes too long/2 are connecting from the same IP to the same server
12:24<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r12082 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: MSVC projects do not care about the directory of the file while sorting. Only the "Absolute" name matters
12:26<yorick>the project folder doesn't matter for compiling under mingw, right?
12:26<Ash_>Fair enough. I am on a relatively slow line. So it's a known bug I guess. :-)
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12:36<yorick>what was that revision parameter for configure?
12:38<@Belugas>yorick, no, they only matter while using msvc
12:39<@peter1138>--revision, probably
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12:40<yorick>unknow option: revision
12:41<yorick>but it works when adding =, thanks!
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12:44<+glx>Ash_: it's already reported
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12:47<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... "too short platform penalty" must be increased
12:51<Zr40>any chance FS#104 gets committed?
12:52<Eddi|zuHause3>funny, that is like 2 years old ;)
12:53<yorick>make it a patch option:
12:53<yorick>"Use advanced finances window"
12:53<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, we desperately need more pathch options!! ... NOT!
12:54<Zr40>I don't see any benefit to making it a configurable option
12:54<yorick>I think we do :)
12:54<yorick>devs don't like changing something without making it an option for users to change back
12:56<Zr40>svn update -r revision-before-change
12:57<yorick>they have something like new-feature-which-players-want-without-needing-to-see-the-advanced-finances-window-every-year
12:58<Zr40>there's already an option to not show the finances window every year
12:58<yorick>there is?
12:58<@peter1138>crap, i fell off the road :o
12:59<Zr40>I hope there was grass, not rocks.
12:59<yorick>they have something like new-feature-which-players-want-without-needing-to-see-the-advanced-finances-window-when-they-click-on-the-money-to-see-how-much-money-there-is-wasted-this-year
12:59<Zr40>what's your point?
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13:02<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r12083 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: Adding some more files in MSVC projects
13:04<@Belugas>Zr40, what are those indexes for?
13:04<Zr40>they were already there in r1. I just documented them.
13:05<@Belugas>ok... yuo documented each index. but not the index system
13:05<@Belugas>that's waht i mean
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13:06<@Belugas>what are those indexes for?
13:06<Zr40>apparently, they're used to accumulate certain types of cost/profit
13:06<@Belugas>since they are there back from r1, pretty good chances the one who wrote these is not aruipnd anymore ;)
13:06<yorick>back and afk :)
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13:08<Zr40>I even believe they're identical to the original TTD
13:08<@Belugas>might very well be...
13:08<@Belugas>but.. i was thinking...
13:09<@Belugas>maybe it's time to have a more flexible system
13:09<@Belugas>tis is pretty much obscure
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13:12<@Belugas>or maybe not now ... maybe we should wait for post 0.6
13:14<@Belugas>heeek.... it is a pretty big window now :(
13:14<Zr40>yep, I made it larger for the totals to fit in
13:15<Zr40>as for horizontally, I found that the numbers would overlap in big games
13:16<Zr40>someone suggested a scroll bar a while ago
13:16<Zr40>would be useful if more than two years of history is saved
13:16<Zr40>but I won't go in and hack everything just to do that
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13:17<@Belugas>that is the problem with that window not being flexible enough
13:17<@Belugas>hello Wolf01
13:18<@Belugas>i think that somewhere, there might be a lot that can be done directly in the paint event, instead of been manually placed
13:18<Zr40>I agree.
13:19<@Belugas>plus, it shold be noted somewhere that these indexes are in fact indexes in the money data that comes from the player
13:19<@Belugas>that would at least make it more understandable
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13:19<@Belugas>plus, i would turn all those numbers into enum,
13:20<@Belugas>might even be usefull system wide
13:20<@Belugas>i'm pretty sure the plaeyr expenses are still, from here and there, accessed by magical numbers
13:22<@Belugas>mmn... nope
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13:23<Phantasm>Belugas: Any estimate on when will the too little industry spawning on big maps (or too many on small maps) be fixed?
13:24<@Belugas>nope. no estimate available
13:24<Phantasm>Will you do it or give it to whoever wants it?
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13:26<@Belugas>mayube i'll do it, but 1) have not yet took time to think of how to do it 2) have not yet found time to think if it should be done 3) have not yet decided if i would like it to be fixed
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13:27<@Belugas>if ever you have a sensible solution that do not involves calling random stuff here and there and that REALLY does addresses the issue in a really demonstrable way, do it
13:28<@Belugas>Zr40, look into economy_type.h:113 and see whaat i've fond out for you :)
13:28<@Belugas>with this, your patch will get a very higher readibility ;)
13:29<@Belugas>and it would not require the lengend in the function's block header anumore
13:30<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd like to think of big maps as everything-has-more-space instead of everything-appears-more-often
13:30<Yorick>I think I do have the (almost) ultimate ottd build here, with YAPP, Paxdest, and my own truckdriver-security patch :)
13:30<@Belugas>provide a patch, dear Eddi|zuHause3
13:31<Eddi|zuHause3>(that was mostly addressed by the "very few" industry/town setting)
13:31<@Belugas>well... that is a different matter, isn't it?
13:32<@Belugas>number of indu VS spatial dispersion, i mean
13:33*Belugas goes out for a while
13:33<Zr40>i686-apple-darwin9-g++-4.0.1: Support/OpenTTD": No such file or directory <-- what's that " doing there?
13:33<Eddi|zuHause3>i meant "fewer industries" == "more space between them"
13:34<Eddi|zuHause3>but there may well be more complicated attempts to that ;)
13:34<Phantasm>Belugas: If you just scale it 1:1 with map size, you get bigger maps to be identical to just multiple small maps places together. However, it might be wanted that bigger maps actually do have less industries and thus longer routes. I think a viable sollution that fits all would be to have a scale factor with options like 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32 and no scaling (1/64 is the case with biggest map on noscaling). That way the player could decide on what ...
13:34<Phantasm>... would be suitable. Default of 1/2 or 1/4 would probably be good.
13:34<Eddi|zuHause3>Zr40: part of the path name "Application Support"?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause3>i.e. misplaced/unescaped space?
13:35<+glx>use a recent trunk
13:35<Phantasm>Belugas: Other option is to have it to scale identically with map size, but another option to affect both starting industries and spawning of new ones. Scaling factor for that with same options. That way player can better affect the starting amount of industries which is currently directly scaled.
13:35<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: I thought as much. I don't know why that wasn't a problem yesterday.
13:36<Phantasm>Belugas: Both of those fixed should be very easily done and only touch very few places.
13:36<Zr40>glx: unless last minute isn't recent enough... :)
13:36<Phantasm>Belugas: I think the latter would be better.
13:36<Eddi|zuHause3>@seen michi_cc
13:36<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause3: michi_cc was last seen in #openttd 23 hours, 45 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <michi_cc> thanks, found
13:37<+glx>it was a problem some times ago, but it should have been fixed (else nightlies for osx would be unavailable)
13:39<Phantasm>Belugas: What do you think?
13:39<Zr40>glx: it worked yesterday. I don't see any changes since then that could affect this
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13:39<+glx>maybe reconfiguration failed
13:40<+glx>source.list changed many times today
13:40<Zr40>I assume those files aren't affected by make clean
13:40<+glx>try reconfiguring by hand
13:41<Zr40>shared data directory... /Library/Application\ Support/OpenTTD
13:41<+glx>when source.list is change, Makefile is recreated
13:41<Phantasm>Belugas: Erm, my logic failed.. 1/64 scaling factor wouldn't mean identical amount of industries in 64 times as big map, but twice the amount of industries.
13:41<+glx>maybe config.cache contains bad path
13:42<+glx>and then write a broken Makefile
13:43<Zr40>running ./configure worked
13:43<Zr40>I suppose that backslash is getting lost somewhere along the way
13:43<+glx>so it's a cache bug :)
13:43<+glx>let's slap Bjarni when it'll come back :)
13:51<Zr40>what determines the initial window size?
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13:52<+glx>the code
13:52<Gonozal_VIII>oh noes, it's the code!
13:52<Gonozal_VIII>morning peoples :-)
13:52<Zr40>I've got a window that thinks it's ~500 pixels high, but gets clipped at ~400
13:53<Yorick>repair the code!
13:53<Yorick>The Code has been broken!
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13:55<Zr40>I've changed the WindowDesc of the window in question to set the height to 527 pixels
13:55-!-Guest734 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:55<Zr40>the window correctly draws to that height
13:56<Gonozal_VIII>default height and/or minimum height?
13:56-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:56<+glx>and we want to have minimum size in 640*480 or less
13:56<Zr40>not the game window, but windows inside the game :)
13:57<+glx>ie it should be usable on small res devices
13:57<Zr40>err, that's width
13:57<Gonozal_VIII>i know, i changed the size of the purchase new vehicle window^^
13:57<Zr40>height is 276 pixels :D
13:58<Zr40>as I said, the window draws itself correctly
13:58<Gonozal_VIII>well... 527*276 is in 640*480
13:58<Zr40>but it's being clipped at 216 pixels
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13:58<Zr40>(the old height)
13:59<+glx>you must change widget size too
14:00<Gonozal_VIII> WDP_AUTO, WDP_AUTO, 254, 186, 386, 368,
14:00<Gonozal_VIII>i only changed that line and it works fine
14:01<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: depends on the window :)
14:01<+glx>some are not resizable, and you need to update all widgets when changing the size
14:02<Zr40>done that too.
14:02<Zr40>if I didn't, I would have the reverse problem :)
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14:04<Gonozal_VIII>search the file for the numbers you changed, if you find them somewhere else too, look if that has something to do with it
14:06<Gonozal_VIII>oh, 12081
14:06<Gonozal_VIII>wow 83
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14:10<@Belugas>Phantasm, as said before, i have to think about it. Let say that i'm a bit tired on other people's wish and for once, i'm working on something I told MYSELF it would be good. You see, newindustries took a whole year of my life. It's a bit time to get some fresh air for me
14:10<@Belugas>not saying i wold not do anything,
14:10<@Belugas>just that it is not a big emergency on my book...
14:11<Yorick>what are you responding to?
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14:11<Gonozal_VIII>working on stuff you like is always good belugas :-)
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14:11-!-mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
14:11<Yorick>a vision telling you to go programming openttd? :-P
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14:11<@Belugas>Yorick, did i mentionnoned your name? no? it does not concern you then. I mentionned "hantasm"
14:12<@Belugas>thanks Gonozal_VIII ;)
14:13<Yorick>"it does not concern you then.", "Let say that i'm a bit tired on other people's wish and for once"
14:13*Digitalfox gives big hug to Belugas..
14:13*Yorick does too
14:14<Digitalfox>Come one everybody let's give big hug's to Belugas so he feels his work is important
14:14<Sacro>hug's what?
14:15*Sacro hits Digitalfox with a sign saying "DO NOT ABUSE APOSTRAPHES"
14:15*Sacro hugs Belugas
14:15<Sacro>we should all send him gifts
14:15*Digitalfox put's Sacro on his shoot to kill list
14:16<@Belugas>prrrrrrrrr prrrrrrrrrrrr prrrrrrrrrrrrr
14:16*Yorick dusts off a kitchen towel and slaps it at Sacro
14:16<Zr40>Belugas: regarding readability, is it better to unroll loops and use those enums, or keep loops and magic numbers?
14:17<Sacro>Zr40: -funroll-loops!
14:17<Zr40>not that one :)
14:17<@Belugas>dunno Zr40. I just had a very limited time to look at it (patch + trunk)
14:18<@Belugas>maybe loops are usefull
14:18<@Belugas>maybe they shold be using a big array of features+strings... dunno
14:18<Zr40>maybe I'll do both
14:18<Zr40>I'll extract the loop into a function
14:18<Gonozal_VIII>put the enums you want into an array and use array access in the loop^^
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14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>ok... this bidirectional double track line is way too busy to get used bidirectional...
14:24-!-Tekky [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:25<@peter1138>quad track!
14:26<Gonozal_VIII>or just put in some one way pbs signals...
14:28<@peter1138>that wouldn't help :p
14:29<Tekky2>bi-directional double track is not possible with the current PBS signals, as michi_cc's patch only supports strong and not "weak" reservations. Please see for information why "weak" reservations are necessary.
14:30-!-Tekky2 is now known as Tekky
14:31<Sacro>i wish people would stop using in front of
14:31<Sacro>when they mean in rear of
14:31<Sacro>i think
14:31<Sacro>or am i confused again
14:32<Gonozal_VIII>very likely
14:32<DJ-Nekk|d>are there any .nfo-codeing-channels? :)
14:32<Gonozal_VIII> <-- that doesn't work but with less signals it does
14:33<Tekky>that image refers to the old PBS system.
14:34<@Belugas>DJ-Nekk|d, strickly devoted to nfo, i doubt
14:34<Tekky>the PBS system in MiniIN
14:34<Tekky>brb, must reconnect.
14:34<@peter1138>Crappy PBS
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14:35<@Belugas>DJ-Nekk|d, there are a few good resources in here, anyway. Dalestan, although not always active, reads and can answers, as long as you have a good questin to ask.
14:35<@Belugas>ther are other grf writers too, not just him, in here :)
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14:37<DJ-Nekk|d>hehe, well, i know, but i dont always wanna other this channel with all my questions
14:37<Gonozal_VIII>< Tekky> that image refers to the old PBS system. <-- i know that but i'm talking about new pbs :P
14:37<@Belugas>"wanna other" ???
14:37<DJ-Nekk|d>wanna bother
14:37<@Belugas>no prob
14:37-!-k3ks [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
14:38<@Belugas>go ahead, i' sure KNOWLEDGE might not HURT a few people, anyway ;)
14:38<DJ-Nekk|d>well ... ive come a small way ... but now am i gonna try the callbacks ...
14:38<DJ-Nekk|d>and tbh, the wiki dont say too much
14:38<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm wiki says a lot
14:39<DJ-Nekk|d>it say a lot, but where to put it and stuff...
14:39<DJ-Nekk|d>mainly 3 things im gonna use tho, atleast for now
14:39<DJ-Nekk|d>wagon length and capacity, and therefor also the load ammount
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14:41<Gonozal_VIII>load ammount is specified by the grf
14:41<Gonozal_VIII>well.. everything is^^
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14:42<Gonozal_VIII>what do you want to do with that? programmable signals or something like that?
14:42<DJ-Nekk|d>lets say i make a train, and it is a typical commuter train. and therefore i want the attached wagons to have 100ppl capacity, and 34 ppl load ammount ...
14:43-!-Tlustoch [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:43<Forked>DJ-Nekk|d: are you happy with your isp?
14:44<DJ-Nekk|d>Forked: yes i am ... the best in our region, by far
14:44<DJ-Nekk|d>typicaly 50% faster and 30% cheaper then Telenor
14:44<Forked>anyway I think I derailed you, sorry
14:44<DJ-Nekk|d>hehe ... well, i work as a telecom technition, so yes and no...
14:45<Forked>hmm ok.. I work at our isp :p
14:45<Forked>ye, how do you think I got this host? :)
14:45-!-Maedhros [] has joined #openttd
14:45<DJ-Nekk|d>i didnt realize you had mimer :)
14:45<Forked>anyway, gf calls.. good night :)
14:45<DJ-Nekk|d>well, i kinda work for you then :)
14:45<saati>poisoned the root servers?
14:46<Forked>saati: sshh
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14:56<Eddi|zuHause3><Tekky2> bi-directional double track is not possible with the current PBS signals, as michi_cc's patch only supports strong and not "weak" reservations. Please see for information why "weak" reservations are necessary. <- indeed, it doesn't work the way it is described here
14:57<Eddi|zuHause3>but you can make it work (less efficiently) by not placing signals on the "wrong" side
14:57<Gonozal_VIII>i wrote that eddi :P
14:57<Gonozal_VIII>i even posted a screenshot of that here yesterday
14:57<Eddi|zuHause3>so trains that overtake on the left will have to reserve up to a signal on the "right" [both meanings] side
14:58<Gonozal_VIII>deadlocks.png.. but already deleted
14:58<Eddi|zuHause3>i have a screenshot, too
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14:58<Gonozal_VIII>mine is better!
14:59<Gonozal_VIII> <-- normal signals --> pbs, signals with red bar --> nothing
15:00<DJ-Nekk|d>ahh ... hmm ...
15:00<Tekky>thx, I will look at it.
15:00<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: 404
15:01<@Belugas>rarely have i seen a patch been so heavily tested and commented...
15:01<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: it seems to ignore everything from the comma
15:01<Eddi|zuHause3>Zr40: safari?
15:01<Gonozal_VIII>too many signals cause deadlocks, too few cause delays and possibly crashes, be careful^^
15:01<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: yep
15:01<Eddi|zuHause3>replace the comma
15:01<Eddi|zuHause3>known problem ;)
15:01*Belugas goes in coma
15:02<Zr40>Eddi|zuHause3: same if I replace it with %2C
15:02<Eddi|zuHause3>Belugas: we just have PBS patches too rarely ;)
15:02<@Belugas>i do totally agree , don't worry :D
15:03<Zr40>I still don't understand why the window is being clipped
15:03<Zr40>old height is 216, which doesn't occur anywhere relevant
15:04<Gonozal_VIII>full height incl everything?
15:04<Vikthor>Belugas: Hardly any other patch was so much sought-after :D
15:04<Gonozal_VIII>pbs IS cool
15:05<@peter1138>Belugas, hackykid's PBS patch was got me first interested in OTTD ;)
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15:06<Zr40>ah. sneaky WndProc
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15:07<@Belugas>i was very disappointed myself when it was removed. And i am aboslutely amazed to see all the brouhaha around this new one. It feels like trunk inclusion like shit in spring ;)
15:07<Zr40>it resizes itself to 204 + (0 or 12)
15:07<@peter1138>that was my fault ;o
15:09<Gonozal_VIII>add a big fat warning "trains may crash if not used properly" and trunkify^^
15:09<@peter1138>well the first incarnation had very hard to find crashing bugs, and deadlocks...
15:09<@peter1138>and i suspect if this gets to trunk it will be post 0.6
15:09<@peter1138>(so nobody will use 0.6 heh)
15:10<Gonozal_VIII>good way to get more people to use the nightlies ;-)
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15:11<@Belugas>i don't thuink i was a dev when it was removed. I was sad, but knew that is was for some good reasons, even if it was not obvious to me at that time.
15:11<@peter1138>lots of other things like yapf would've been seriously constrained
15:12<@peter1138>not that they were even a glimmer in a coder's eye at the time
15:12<Gonozal_VIII>it works with yapf now :-)
15:12<Tekky>hmmmm, the bi-directional double track is not very efficient if there are no signals on the opposite track side.... I think I will have to patch michi_cc's patch in order to allow for "weak" reservations :) However, I have not tested my design yet, so it could be that "weak" reservations don't help much :) The main problem with "weak" reservations is that
15:12<Tekky>it may require a train prioritizer system to work efficiently.
15:13<Zr40>Belugas: if you've got time, take a look at my new patch :)
15:13<Tekky>i.e. trains should be able to change their reserved paths if they interfere too much with other trains.
15:13<Gonozal_VIII>overtaking can't be efficient on busy lines
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15:15<Gonozal_VIII>maybe a 3 track system where the outer lines are oneway and the middle is shared for overtaking could be better
15:15<Tekky>the main problem with overtaking is that you must have a train prioritzer system in place, otherwise the slower train may decide to overtake the faster train in some situations :)
15:15<Gonozal_VIII>yes, priorities would be nice
15:16<@peter1138>stupid non-pbs signals...
15:16<@peter1138>deadlocked :(
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15:19<Eddi|zuHause3><peter1138> lots of other things like yapf would've been seriously constrained <- i remember KUDr showed up only because PBS was removed, so there would be no YAPF now at all ;)
15:20<Eddi|zuHause3>somebody needs to branch 0.6, so PBS can be trunkified ;)
15:20*Belugas enjoys Micke oldfield, Sentinel from Tubular bells 2
15:20<Eddi|zuHause3>what is holding back a release right now?
15:21<@Belugas>time, actually
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15:26<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause3, yeah, time. And I'm an idiot who gets carried away on big changes that can't go in for 0.6...
15:26<@peter1138>. o O ( engine pool )
15:26<Eddi|zuHause3>hihihi ;)
15:26<@Belugas>ny fault, actually...
15:26<@peter1138>. o O ( yet another routing restriction patch )
15:26<@peter1138>your fault?
15:27<@Belugas>i'm supposed to work on the release itself, got carried away in that bridge stuff...
15:27<@Belugas>i got the logs, but...working them up for release is such a boring job...
15:28<Gonozal_VIII>i personally don't care about releases, for me, 0.6.0 could come in 2010, as long as the trunk keeps getting better and better :-)
15:28<@Belugas>i have to push myself on it
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15:28<+michi_cc>Tekky: I thought about doing "weak" reservations as well, but a classical A*-star pathfinder can't really make use of them. It would need iterative interaction between trains to find the optimal solution (like, when to continue on the wrong side and when to switch back to the right side)
15:28<@Belugas>Gonozal_VIII, at a point, it should be a release
15:28<Vikthor>(21:12:42) Tekky: it may require a train prioritizer system to work efficiently. -- I wonder if signaling is not too much train-based, eg. train reserves path so it is best for it
15:29<Gonozal_VIII>what's causing so much work with a release?
15:30<Vikthor>It might be very intersting to somehow simulate a dispatcher(?), who would try to coordinate the trains for greater efficiency of whole network
15:30<Vikthor>Then again, it sounds pretty difficult on first sight.
15:30<Zr40>Belugas: heh. your patch more or less requires mine :)
15:32<@Belugas>Gonozal_VIII :
15:32<@Belugas>Zr40, the other way around... mine allows yours to be more readable ;)
15:32<Gonozal_VIII>backport all the fixes <-- no branch
15:33<@Belugas>"update the changelog": that's the bitch
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15:34<Zr40>Belugas: not really. All your patch does is shuffle the expenses and remove magic numbers
15:34<Zr40>which results in breakage in the finances windaw :)
15:34<Zr40>window, even
15:34<@Belugas>and in yours, thouse numbers can be change too
15:35<@Belugas>thus making it more readable
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15:35<Zr40>Belugas: yep. But that doesn't require your patch to work :)
15:35-!-raimar2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:36<Zr40>you did look at the new one, right? :)
15:36<@Belugas>we favor removal of magical numbers
15:36*hylje submits a patch which reinstates magical numbers all over the place
15:36-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
15:36<@Belugas>and enums do not have to specify each numbers incrementaly
15:36<@Belugas>so tmy patch is good for cleanup
15:36<@Belugas>plus, the size of the array is now defined
15:37<@Belugas>so... 3 bonuses for trunk
15:37<SpComb>#define MAGIC_SIX 6
15:37<@Belugas>note... it is not compiled...
15:38<@Belugas>breakage? do i break it? i doubt
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15:38<@Belugas>+static void DrawPlayerEconomySingleStat(Money *sum, const Money (*tbl)[EXPENSES_END], int x, ExpensesType i, int y)
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15:39<Gonozal_VIII>bitmath_func and random_func are gone?
15:39<@Belugas>they are?
15:39<Zr40>Belugas: if you apply your patch without applying mine, the finances window displays vehicle purchase cost as construction cost
15:39<Zr40>in my opinion, that's breakage :)
15:40<Gonozal_VIII>well, 12083 removes them from the vcproj files
15:40<Zr40>and if they don't break, some code is still using magic numbers :)
15:40<@peter1138>Zr40, url to patch?
15:40<@Belugas>it does?
15:40<Gonozal_VIII>(update to)
15:40<@Belugas>for peter1138
15:41<@Belugas>Gonozal_VIII, read the commit :)
15:41<@Belugas>it is a sorting one
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15:42<@peter1138>const Money (*tbl)[13]
15:42<+glx><SpComb> #define MAGIC_SIX 6 <-- no #define SIX 1 + 5
15:42<@Belugas>and it was r12082, no 3
15:43<@peter1138>avoid lots of absolute gui positioning
15:43<Gonozal_VIII>yes, but update to 12083 does that^^
15:43<+glx>they are not removed, just moved
15:44<Zr40>peter1138: that's not possible if usage of defined strings/enums is desired
15:44<@peter1138>use a reference based on widget, and then something like y += 20, instead of 20, 40, 60 specifically
15:45-!-hn [~tttt@] has quit []
15:46*Zr40 notices an odd function signature
15:46<@peter1138>why not just pass tbl[EXPENSES_TRAIN_INC] instead of tbl and EXPENSES_TRAIN_INC ?
15:46<@peter1138>(and why "x, i, y" in that order? heh)
15:46<Zr40>that's what I meant :)
15:47<@peter1138>why is sum added to in a draw function?
15:47<@peter1138>it returns void
15:48<@peter1138>sum += DrawPlayerEconomySingleStat(Money cost, int x, int y)
15:48<@peter1138>same with the totals
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15:51<@peter1138>"WTF" ?
15:53-!-divo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:58*Hendikins yawns sleepily
15:59<Hendikins>Yay for overtime and getting paid far more than I spend :P
15:59<@peter1138>I wish
16:00<Zr40>peter1138: changes uploaded :)
16:01<@peter1138>"<Zr40> Belugas: not really. All your patch does is shuffle the expenses and remove magic numbers"
16:01<Hendikins>peter1138: I got paid for 100 hours last fortnight, most of it above my base rate. Cleared over $2150AUD :P
16:01<@peter1138>"<Zr40> which results in breakage in the finances windaw :)"
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16:01<@peter1138>explain? heh
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16:01<@peter1138>Hendikins, i thought you did 100 hours last night for a second...
16:01<Zr40>that patch changes the order of the ExpensesType enum
16:02<@peter1138>no it doens't
16:02<Zr40>I shouldn't try to read patches.
16:02<Hendikins>peter1138: I may be working my tail off, but I am yet to master the impossible
16:03<Zr40>I didn't see + EXPENSES_CONSTRUCTION, so I assumed the order was different
16:05<@peter1138>sum += DrawPlayerEconomySingleStat((*tbl)[EXPENSES_SHIP_RUN], x, 117);
16:05<@peter1138>would be a lot shorter
16:05-!-Tefad [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:05<@peter1138>(ignoring the comment about adding sum in a drawing function, heh
16:05<hylje>i was sitting in a croatian tram earlier today
16:06<@peter1138>scrotum tram?
16:06<Zr40>(that's the reason I did that in the first place ;))
16:06<hylje>no comment
16:08<@Belugas>all the "/* draw {income,expenses other}column names */" could be removed in favor of populating the widget array with captions, instead
16:08<@Belugas>i think
16:08<@Belugas>ho... no...
16:09<@Belugas>yes, afterall..
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16:09<@Belugas>would require a simple sethidden with the range of widgets for (mode & 1)
16:14<Zr40>...which isn't something I know about :)
16:14<@Belugas>haaa :) a challenge for you then ;)
16:15<@Belugas>look for WWT_CAPTION
16:15<SmatZ>is "una su amiga" correct in Spanish?
16:16<@Belugas>Zr40 : and look for "SetWidgetsHiddenState(bool hidden_stat, int widgets, ...);"
16:17<Zr40>captions are those right-click texts, right?
16:17<+glx>no that's tooltip
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16:19<Zr40>it's the title bar?
16:19<Zr40>I don't see what adding hidden extra captions would accomplish
16:20<@Belugas>mmmh maybe i was not clear enough
16:21<@Belugas>WWT_CAPTION is a simple text appearing on the window
16:21<@Belugas>it is placed inside the widget array
16:21<@Belugas>you do not need to NAMELY draw that string EVERYTIME, since it can be done by the window itself
16:22<Zr40>isn't that WWT_TEXT?
16:22<Zr40>grep WWT_CAPTION * only lists title bars
16:23<@Belugas>let me see
16:23<Zr40>openttd currently draws strings the same way
16:23<Zr40>at least in that window :)
16:23<@peter1138>see example in genworld_gui.cpp
16:23<@Belugas>yeah... WWT_TEXT
16:23<@Belugas>sorry for confusion
16:24<@peter1138>Belugas, and yes, I did try to use WWT_CAPTION the first time I made those changes ;)
16:24<@Belugas>if i'mnot mistaken, i'm the one who introduced WWT_TEXT
16:25<@Belugas>or did i introduced WWT_LABEL???
16:25<@Belugas>don't remember
16:26<Zr40>how would you set the text?
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16:27<nappe1>hello everyone
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16:27<@Belugas>Zr40 :
16:27<@Belugas>File news_gui.cpp:
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16:27<@Belugas>928 { WWT_TEXT, RESIZE_NONE, COLOUR_YELLOW, \
16:28<nappe1>Hi Gonozal_VIII... you wanted to have day lenght patch where incomes stay same even with longer days? :)
16:28<Gonozal_VIII>yes... and running costs stay the same too
16:28<Zr40>Belugas: I mean, how do you set the text of an existing control?
16:29<@peter1138>the text is static, isn't it?
16:29<Gonozal_VIII>main reason: running costs are higher than purchase costs, that's very strange
16:29<nappe1>Hey Belugas, was it you who I was in contact with few years ago? I had automatic server pause/run Delphi thingy in works...
16:30<Zr40>peter1138: the labels are, but the values aren't
16:30<@Belugas>you just add a new widget entry of type WWT_TEXT for each of those strings you want to add, as in the news_gui.cpp example
16:30<@peter1138>leave the values 'handdrawn' heh
16:30<@Belugas>nappe1, possible, i don't remember
16:30*peter1138 ponders: continue coding, or play with PBS
16:30<Gonozal_VIII>strange, revision number is 12081
16:31<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: basically I have done that now :) even transfer virtual incomes are right, but as this is my first patch (even if it is a patch for a patch ;) ) I want to make set up for it in the patch settings, so you have to wait a bit.
16:31<Gonozal_VIII>nice :-)
16:32<Gonozal_VIII>belugaaas, revision number of r12083 is r12081
16:32<nappe1>so, as for the highly respected OpenTTD developemtn team, I have some veryyy newbie questions about making new strings to patch setings... :)
16:32<@peter1138>Gonozal_VIII, happens when project files are changed
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16:33<+glx>of course source is still the same
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16:35<nappe1>Basically I did figure out that strings.h has the mapping from IDs to real strings, how should I add a new one? As my boolean button is changing Day length settings, I thought I should put it next to the previous one (the one which is for effecting running costs) but there isn't space between indexes, so shall I just it to end of the list with next free index?
16:36<+glx>never touch strings.h
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16:36<+glx>just add the string in english.txt
16:36<@Belugas>adding string in english.txt, recompile and you'll have your new id
16:36<nappe1>well, that did came across my mind. :D
16:36<nappe1>ah... thanks. :)
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16:44<nappe1>...aaand lots of errors...
16:44<nappe1>darn terminators...
16:45<nappe1>(well, that's what you get when you work with 6 different languages in same amount of projects during one day...)
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16:46*Belugas goes home
16:46<@Belugas>good night
16:46<@Belugas>see you tomorrow
16:46<murray>hugz & kissez
16:47<Sacro>if you change a PBS run station whilst its live
16:48<@peter1138>hmm, just had another case of a train reserving a path out of a station when it's just entering it
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16:48<@peter1138>think it happens when a train is stopping at a station which it is not scheduled to stop at
16:51<Sacro>i just had a 5 train crash :(
16:51<Sacro>i think when a train crashes, it unreserves its path
16:52<Gonozal_VIII>after it's removed
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16:55<@peter1138>it does
16:55<@peter1138>but it does it even if there's another part of the train on that reserved bit, i believe
16:57<nappe1>hmmh... it seems that I have problem building languages.
16:57<nappe1>is it so that if I make rebuild the whole sollution, the languages should be building at first?
16:58<nappe1>as it is not doing it now and then causing unknown symbol from the my new string entry at settings.cpp.
16:59<nappe1>I did try to build just langs but that stops in error "there's no delimiter(:) in line 1 at english.txt"
17:01<Maedhros>nappe1: which operating system are you using, and what does the string you added look like?
17:01<Gonozal_VIII>ah i had that too
17:01<Gonozal_VIII>i think it has something to do with the editor you save it in
17:02<Gonozal_VIII>and language textfile saved in notepad or wordpad fails for me, even if i didn't change anything
17:02<dih>@seen Bjarni
17:02<@DorpsGek>dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 1 hour, 30 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <Bjarni> <Belugas> tired of removing it <-- think about all the money you save on the gym
17:03<nappe1>Maedhros: WinXP SP2 and yes, I also think that the notepad screwed it up... (I know, should have editted in VS... :-/)
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17:04<nappe1>but then again, is the generator expecting UTF-8? I already tried to fix the situation saving it as UTF-8 format... (as ANSI did not work any better...)
17:04<nappe1>Line looks like this:
17:04<nappe1>STR_CONFIG_PATCHES_DAYLENGTH_CDIFACTOR :{LTBLUE}Daylength affects cargo delivery incomes
17:04<Maedhros>yes, the string should be in utf8
17:05<Maedhros>i wonder if notepad adds a BOM to the beginning of the file?
17:05<Maedhros>that would probably confuse strgen no end
17:05<nappe1>Maedhros: hmmh... maybe I should take my XVi32 and check what the file has eaten really... :)
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17:07<nappe1>Maedhros: you are right, there is 0xEF,0xBB,0xBF sequence at the beginning before real char data
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17:09<nappe1>okay, let's see now...
17:10<nappe1>and now it works.
17:10<Maedhros>good good :)
17:10<nappe1>so, if someone asks, Notepad screws the language files.
17:11<nappe1>MS is great abusing standards and totally screwing them, but writing a 3 byte header in txt file?? sheesh....
17:12<@peter1138>It's called a BOM
17:13<Tefad_>BOMs are kind of standard
17:13<@peter1138>It is fairly pointless as UTF-8 is not affected by endianness.
17:13<Tefad_>there are ways of not having it write BOMs
17:13<@peter1138>But it does allow auto-detection.
17:13<Prof_Frink>1) Use a Real Editor.
17:13<nappe1>mmmkay, what that stands for? (sorry to be stupid, since I made coding profession, I think less I have had time to dedicate for educating myself... :D )
17:14<Prof_Frink>no, it's BOM, as in "Somebody set up us the".
17:14<@peter1138>Byte Order Mark
17:15*Maedhros wonders if there's any point in modifying strgen to ignore a BOM if present
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17:16<nappe1>so, it's telling little / big endian stuff for application? (nearest thing I lately came across was BAM... which is totally different thing in totally obsolete system. Commodore Disk system had that as Block Allocation Table. :) )
17:17*Prof_Frink has to do BOMs at work
17:18<nappe1>Maedhros: hard to say really... it ain't that big deal. and it does not cause trouble that often if I was the first one...
17:18<@peter1138>michi_cc, have you caught that station reserving bug yet?
17:18<Prof_Frink>Plans, plots and BOMs. Echelon must have a field day on our phone lines.
17:18<@peter1138>BOM is usually Bill of Materials...
17:19<Gonozal_VIII>indeededly is the correct spelling
17:19<Prof_Frink>Not if you're saying "Indeedy.".
17:21<nappe1>hmmh... now it compiles and runs but there's no that new option. :) Something is changed still in settings, as the savegames aren't compatible anymore. :D
17:21<nappe1>hmmh... what I am missing... let me see...
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17:30<nappe1>static const char *_patches_economy[] needed updating at least... let see if I would be more successful this time...
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17:37<nappe1>and now it works. :)
17:39<nappe1>a bit more testing and then I need to just get another set of source code (this time without adding dozen of other patches) merge the latest Day Length patch and then make these same modifications on that and make my own day length patch version with this new feature. :) Easy, eh??
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18:23<Gonozal_VIII>the sun will rise next week!
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18:26<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: umm... how north you are living? :) somewhere near Hammerfest (Norway) longitude? :)
18:27<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: Well yes, Susan saved the Hogfather.
18:27<Gonozal_VIII>in a steep valley..
18:27<Gonozal_VIII>no son from october to february
18:27<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: well, that explains a bit... :)
18:34<Gonozal_VIII>lots of vampires spend the winter months here
18:35<Sacro>people are saying "in front of" when they mean "in rear of"
18:35<Sacro>'so official UK practice is to use the terms in rear of and in advance of. When a train is waiting at a signal it is "in rear of" that signal and the danger being protected by the signal is "in advance of" the train and signal.'
18:37<Gonozal_VIII>that definition sucks
18:38<Sacro>-> Train -> Signal ->
18:38<Sacro>train is in rear of signal
18:38<Sacro>-> signal -> train ->
18:38<Sacro>train is in advance of signal
18:38<Prof_Frink>s/in advance of/at/
18:38<Sacro>"in front of" signal is ambiguous
18:39<Prof_Frink>Far easier
18:39<Prof_Frink>or "has (not) passed"
18:39<Gonozal_VIII>first train, then signal... train is in rear of signal... makes so much sense :P
18:40<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: Well, the signal is to the rear of the train
18:40<Prof_Frink>I can see where the crazy fools are coming from
18:40<Gonozal_VIII>it is
18:40<Sacro>the signal is not to the rear of the train
18:40<Sacro>the train is to the rear of the signal
18:41<Sacro>from the point of view of the signalbox in the middle
18:41<Gonozal_VIII>wtf point of view of signalbox?
18:42*Sacro sighs
18:42*Prof_Frink sends Sacro back to hull for being silly
18:42<Gonozal_VIII>[train moving right][engine]_____[signal facing train]
18:43<Gonozal_VIII>that train is in front of the signal :P
18:43<Prof_Frink>The train has not passed the signal.
18:43<Sacro>its in rear of the signal
18:43<Gonozal_VIII>and how does that make sense sacro?
18:43<Sacro>your point of view is on the right
18:43<Sacro>you are looking at a signal
18:43<Sacro>with a train behind it
18:44<Gonozal_VIII>why would i look at the signal from the back?
18:44<Sacro>because thats the established way
18:44<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: It's a standard. It's not supposed to be sensible.
18:44<Sacro>A term used regularly is to talk of in advance of and in rear of. These always apply to the driver's viewpoint from his footplate. The next signal he reaches is in advance of him. The last signal box he passed is in rear of him.
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18:45<Gonozal_VIII>ah... so that's why you cars all drive on the wrong side, you look at them from the wrong side
18:45<Sacro>but from a signals point of view
18:45<Sacro>the last train that passed is in advance
18:45<Sacro>the next train to pass is in rear
18:45<Gonozal_VIII>even from signal view the train is in front
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18:46<Prof_Frink>It would be so much simpler if up/down wasn't taken
18:46<Gonozal_VIII>only from signal assview it's otherwise
18:46<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: Actually it's consistent
18:47<Gonozal_VIII>actually it sucks
18:47<Sacro>Gonozal_VIII: how do you define "in front of"
18:47<Prof_Frink>the front is always in the direction of traven
18:47<Sacro>surely that all depends which side you are sat at
18:47<Sacro>Prof_Frink: not on bidi
18:47<Gonozal_VIII>the side where the lights point is the front of the signal
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18:48<Prof_Frink>Sacro: OK then, "rear" in this case is always against the direction of travel
18:48<Sacro>Gonozal_VIII: which is the opposite direction to the front of the train
18:48<Sacro>which is stupid and confusing
18:48<Prof_Frink>So a train that has not passed a signal is to the rear of the signal
18:48<Gonozal_VIII>both front
18:48<Sacro>the front of a signal is the bit *without* lights
18:48<Gonozal_VIII>signal is in front of train, train is in front of signal
18:49<Sacro>but that could mean anything
18:49<Gonozal_VIII>[00:48:51] Sacro: the front of a signal is the bit *without* lights <-- see... that's the part that sucks
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18:51<Gonozal_VIII>that's like: the front of a horse is the part where the horseapples come out
18:51<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: the signal faces the block it's protecting
18:51<Sacro>Prof_Frink: yes!
18:51<Sacro>it does not face the train
18:51<Gonozal_VIII>then the train is in front of the signal block^^
18:52<Sacro>its behind the signal block
18:52<Sacro>if it was in front of it then it would have passed it
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18:54<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't make any sense and sucks
18:55<Sacro>it makes perfect sense
18:55<Sacro>just ignore the whole in front/ behind idea
18:55<Gonozal_VIII>has probably been invented by the same guy that decided to drive on the wrong side and use imperial units
18:55<Sacro>driving on the left makes perfect sense
18:56<Prof_Frink>more likely invented by the same guy that decided "up" was towards London
18:56<Sacro>and it was the bloody europeans who invented metric in the first place
18:56<Gonozal_VIII>you're brainwashed :P
18:56<Sacro>we've been using imperial since few thousand BC
18:56<Sacro>Prof_Frink: that is confusing at times
18:56*Sacro notes that KX is on the right on simsig
18:56<Sacro>so up ->
18:56<Sacro>and down <-
18:56<Gonozal_VIII>up is towards london? wtf london is in the south of your island thingy
18:56<Sacro>but on peterborough
18:57<Sacro>up -> and down <-
18:57<Prof_Frink>Sacro: But if that wasn't the case, we could use up/downstream for defining relative positions on track
18:57<Sacro>Prof_Frink: quite possibly
18:58<Gonozal_VIII>what stream?
18:58<Sacro>but advance/rear is from ABS
18:58<Sacro>which is ftw
18:58<Prof_Frink>"train is upstream of signal" == "train is in rear of signal" == "train has not passed signal"
18:59<Gonozal_VIII>== train is in front of signal
19:00<Prof_Frink>Yes, it's the term "advance" that's annoying
19:00<Gonozal_VIII>you could say train is advancing signal :D
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19:02<Gonozal_VIII>that can't be misunderstood, right?
19:02<Gonozal_VIII>is advancing and has passed
19:02<Prof_Frink>I think it's because "in advance" is normally referring to time rather than distance
19:03-!-Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:04<Gonozal_VIII>my last name is peer :-)
19:05<Gonozal_VIII>i reset people's connections all the time
19:09<Audigex>thats nothing
19:10<Audigex>Ping Timeout, pleased to meet you
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19:10*nappe1 needs a faster processor... making builds while debuging is boring....
19:11-!-Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
19:11<Prof_Frink><insert xkcd "my code's compiling" reference>
19:11<Prof_Frink>Sacro: j00 been peer'd
19:11<Gonozal_VIII>but he's not at work
19:12<Gonozal_VIII>or is he?
19:12<Sacro>Prof_Frink: i accidently yoinked my servers power cable out
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19:12<nappe1>to me everyone else is "Pong" (I go and and introduce myself "?PING" I always get an reply "!PONG" or then Mr. Peer here comes around and makes me die.. :~( )
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19:16<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: it seems that this patch is working, eventhough the effect isn't that big. :D
19:16-!-Greysc[a]le is now known as Greyscale
19:16<Gonozal_VIII>no big effect?
19:16<Gonozal_VIII>how's that?
19:18<nappe1>well, I am debuging right now... as in first tests I got that income was cutted half when I multiplied days in transit with day length multiplier
19:19<nappe1>but now I am unable to get more than 10% difference...
19:19<nappe1>oh wait I just got an idea...
19:19<Gonozal_VIII>divide by daylength?
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19:23<nappe1>no, I multiply the transit time (which is counted in days). :) with doing that I don't need worry modifying cargo payment rates, for financial side the game is running on same speed as original. (when days get twice longer, transit days halves, so multiplying it should do the trick)
19:24<Gonozal_VIII>max is 255
19:25<nappe1>the cargo payment system is really weird... propably still same as it used to be in TTD... there's in fact three different ways to pay cargo deliveries depending how long they have taken to deliver (if I understood right.)
19:25<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: yep, I do the multiplication only if the result si smaller than 255 (0xFF) if the result would be bigger, I just set the transit time to 0xFF
19:26<Gonozal_VIII>well... that's not enough then
19:26<Gonozal_VIII>maybe you could change the max age of cargo packets to 16 bit or something?
19:27<nappe1>well, yes. but the problems should arise when delivery time surrpasses 127 game days. the problems I am dealing with are visible much much shorter distances. :D
19:28<nappe1>maybe yes. I don't think that being too hard, except it's going to take double amount of memory
19:28<Gonozal_VIII>payment decay is not linear
19:29<Gonozal_VIII>change the age to ticks instead of days :-)
19:29<Gonozal_VIII>ticks are always the same
19:29<nappe1>that (at least) sounds a much bigger change... :D
19:31<Gonozal_VIII>16 bit instead of 8 and ticks instead of days...
19:33<Eddi|zuHause3><Prof_Frink> Gonozal_VIII: Well yes, Susan saved the Hogfather. <- funny, i thought the exact same thing ;)
19:33<Gonozal_VIII>no idea what that means
19:34<Prof_Frink>Gonozal_VIII: Read more Pratchett
19:35<Gonozal_VIII>who's pratchett?
19:35<Prof_Frink>Terry Pratchett
19:36<Gonozal_VIII>ah that guy...
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19:37<Gonozal_VIII>too modern to be found in our library
19:38<Gonozal_VIII>the only new books they buy are romance and crime stuff
19:38<Gonozal_VIII>the rest is pre ww2...
19:40<Eddi|zuHause3>they made a film out of that...
19:40<Gonozal_VIII>they did?
19:41<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, they showed it christmas 2006 in britain and christmas 2007 in germany
19:41*Prof_Frink rewatched it last christmas :)
19:42<Prof_Frink>Yay for bittorrent-by-proxy
19:42<Gonozal_VIII>what's the german title?
19:42<Gonozal_VIII>never heard of that
19:42<Eddi|zuHause3>how should i know
19:42<Eddi|zuHause3>german translations always suck
19:43<Eddi|zuHause3>so i don't really pay attention, when i already know the original
19:43<Gonozal_VIII>Schweinsgalopp <-- ^^
19:43<Gonozal_VIII>i wouldn't watch a film with that title...
19:43<Eddi|zuHause3>well, that does kind of relate to the content ;)
19:44<Eddi|zuHause3>but really, watch in english
19:44<Prof_Frink>The same people are making a film of TCOM/TLF
19:45*Prof_Frink sleep
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19:49<nappe1>I should be too, but I am addicted to patch making. :-P
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20:01<Gonozal_VIII>compiling takes too long
20:02<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: that is really true...
20:02<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: guess what? I found the problem. :)
20:03<nappe1>CargoPackets have their own day counters. :) and that's why the Cargo payment stays all the time same.
20:03<Gonozal_VIII>told you :P
20:04<Gonozal_VIII>i told you to change the counter in the cargo packets ;-)
20:04<nappe1>yeah, I was stupid enough not to understand. :D
20:05<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: using make or buildottd?
20:05<+glx>what's your cpu?
20:05<Gonozal_VIII>mobile sempron 3400+
20:06<+glx>try make -j2
20:06<Gonozal_VIII>what's that?
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20:06<+glx>start more process
20:06<Gonozal_VIII>and that speeds it up? why?
20:07<+glx>it does more thing at the same time
20:08<Gonozal_VIII>on a single core cpu :S
20:08<+glx>not a problem
20:08<+glx>-j2 is very soft :)
20:08<+glx>I use -j4 on my X2 3800+
20:08<Gonozal_VIII>but cpu usage is 100% how could that go faster with that?
20:09<Gonozal_VIII>well.. you know better than me, i'll try
20:09<+glx>try and see
20:09<nappe1>Cargo is aged on every 185th cargo tick. so, what's the relation between main engine ticks and cargo ticks...
20:10<Gonozal_VIII>a day is 72 ticks afaik
20:10<Gonozal_VIII>and a year is 364 days in some functions, 365 or 366 in others
20:12<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: 74 ticks as default yes, but It is a bit of mystery how the game keeps syncronized Cargo age and rest of the game..
20:12<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't have to?
20:12<Gonozal_VIII>usually game speed doesn't change
20:12<nappe1>that's true...
20:13<nappe1>oookay, so there's need to write something correct Cargo Age ticks with the time multiplier...
20:14<Eddi|zuHause3>oook... i'm getting really weird graphics glitches here...
20:14<Eddi|zuHause3>one of the office buildings appears to have a totally wrong offset
20:14<Gonozal_VIII>my advice would be to write a seperate patch that changes the cargo packets without daylength first
20:14<Eddi|zuHause3>it's like it's sunk into the ground several stories
20:15<Gonozal_VIII>or 8 pixel
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20:18<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: pretty good suggestion, but as I am working with source having whole bunch of patches, I think I don't have much to lose here... :)
20:19<Gonozal_VIII>i did that too... but it's better to have a clean source
20:19<Gonozal_VIII>if something goes wrong you know what caused it
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20:28<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: yeah...
20:28<nappe1>so far I am pretty much on track what I have changed... planning to make this all over again with clean source when starting to build release version. :D
20:29<nappe1>so, CargoTick went to uint16... :D
20:29<Gonozal_VIII>why? you could just create a .patch file and apply that
20:30<Gonozal_VIII>don't have to start from the beginning ;-)
20:30<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: because I don't want get your muoltipatch release included in that patch. ;)
20:30<nappe1>most likely I'll make few diffs from files like economy.cpp which I have changed most...
20:32<Gonozal_VIII>i have bad memory..
20:32<Gonozal_VIII>i apply a patch, compile takes a long time...
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20:32<Gonozal_VIII>it finishes compiling and i forgot what patch it was
20:33<Eddi|zuHause3>press "up" twice, it will show the command line before "make" ;)
20:34<Gonozal_VIII>lots of output in between, console only keeps 300 lines
20:35<Gonozal_VIII>and that wouldn't tell me which patch it was
20:35<Gonozal_VIII>i apply them with tortoise, no console stuff
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20:36<Eddi|zuHause2>that's sad for you ;)
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20:38<Gonozal_VIII>are you proud that your patch is included in the famous Gonozal_VIIIIN?^^
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20:40<Gonozal_VIII>millions of people are using your patch now!
20:40<Gonozal_VIII>thanks to me :-)
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20:42<Eddi|zuHause2>oh right, there's something that might cause a little trouble there
20:42<Gonozal_VIII>trouble is bad... what?
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20:42<Eddi|zuHause2>when a train stops in the middle of the station, the platform ahead of it is still reserved for PBS
20:42<Eddi|zuHause2>so when it starts up, it cannot reserve a path to the next signal, because some tiles are reserved
20:42<Gonozal_VIII>so if it turns around instead of passing through bad thing?
20:43<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it should be fine for turning around
20:43<Eddi|zuHause2>when turning around, it should delete the previous reservation, and attempt a completely new one
20:43<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: I think I accidentally also found _why_ it is so easy to make money in OpenTTD compared to original...
20:43<Gonozal_VIII>it doesn't try to reserve a path without a signal...
20:44<nappe1>Gonozal_VIII: CargoDays goes on half speed compared to real days on status bar.
20:44<nappe1>17 CargoDays is 34 Real Days.
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20:45<Eddi|zuHause2>that should not be a problem per se...
20:45<Eddi|zuHause2>road vehicles were going at different speeds internally than trains for a long time
20:45<Gonozal_VIII>they don't do that now
20:46<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, but that does not mean their visible speed was different
20:46<Gonozal_VIII>all same speed, nice little vehicles
20:46<nappe1>Eddi|zuHause2: oh that's right... I didn't recalled that...
20:46<Gonozal_VIII>it was
20:46<Eddi|zuHause2>it was just different scale
20:46<nappe1>has that been changed already?
20:46<Gonozal_VIII>ah you mean visible speed in terms of the displayed km/h
20:47<Gonozal_VIII>yes, that was correct only their movement on the map was strange
20:47<Eddi|zuHause2>i mean visible speed as in when you run two vehicles in parallel, that display the same speed
20:47<Eddi|zuHause2>you can't compare the speeding up part
20:47<Gonozal_VIII>train with 200 had same speed as a plane with 800
20:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i said road vehicles
20:48<Eddi|zuHause2>not planes
20:48*Eddi|zuHause2 gives big slaps for Gonozal_VIII
20:48<Eddi|zuHause2>the sun doesn't become you :p
20:48<Gonozal_VIII>next week, not now :P
20:49<Eddi|zuHause2>oohhh... i thought, like, right now...
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20:49<Gonozal_VIII>why not? there are places on earth that have sun now...
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20:50<nappe1>well, I give a shot changing CargoPackets ticks upperlimit as DAY_TICKS :) let's see what that does for incomes...
20:51<Gonozal_VIII>only counts one day long?
20:51<Eddi|zuHause2>daylength has two balance issues there
20:52<Eddi|zuHause2>1st: cargo traveling time must be adjusted
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20:52<Gonozal_VIII>imho the easiest way would be to divide all incomes by daylength
20:52<Eddi|zuHause2>2nd: vehicle income must be adjusted, because they arrive twice as often
20:52<Eddi|zuHause2>s/twice/daylength factor/
20:53<Gonozal_VIII>running and purchase costs stay the same..
20:54<Eddi|zuHause2>the whole gameplay needs serious rebalancing, tweaking some factors won't help
20:55<Gonozal_VIII>name something that doesn't get balanced out by dividing vehicle incomes by daylength
20:55<Eddi|zuHause2>so you'll need 5 years instead of 2 to get more money than you can ever spend...
20:55<Gonozal_VIII>well... that has nothing to do with the daylength
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20:55<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: the intrinsic unbalance that is inside the TTD economy
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20:58<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, i preached that apparently not often enough... you need to walk the entire source, keep track of all timing events, and decide for every event wether it should be time based (daily, monthly, yearly) or tick based
20:58<Eddi|zuHause2>possibly each one individually
20:59<Eddi|zuHause2>because some users will want it this way, and some the other way
20:59<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway... bed...
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21:33<Gonozal_VIII>what is all that stackdump stuff with sh.exe?
21:34<+glx>sh crashed
21:34<+glx>nothing important
21:34<Gonozal_VIII>why does it do that every time?
21:37<Gonozal_VIII>so far configure never worked at first try
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21:42<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm strange
21:43<Gonozal_VIII>when buildin some pbs signals very fast, it builds normal signals instead
21:44<Gonozal_VIII>how can the timespan between clicks influence what gets built?
21:45<ln->get a mac
21:46<Gonozal_VIII>why would that have anything to do with my os?
21:46<Gonozal_VIII>and/or pc
21:46<ln->its sh doesn't crash on configuring.
21:46<Gonozal_VIII>ah that^^
21:46<Gonozal_VIII>well, my sh does that a lot
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23:29<Gonozal_VIII>you can use an integer that can have other values than 0 or 1 as a boolean value O_o
23:30<ln->why not?
23:30<Gonozal_VIII>everything that's not 0 is true?
23:30<ln->that's true.
23:30<GoneWacko>0 or null as far as I've always learned/assumed
23:31<Gonozal_VIII>i'm asking because i found that: if (_opt.autosave) {
23:31<ln->let's not confuse null with anything here.
23:32<Gekz_>15:30 < Gonozal_VIII> everything that's not 0 is true?
23:32<Gekz_>15:30 < ln-> that's true.
23:32<Gekz_> :P
23:32<Gonozal_VIII>very funny :P
23:32<GoneWacko>that's going to get negative scores in no time :(
23:32<ln->it's not funny enough for
23:32<GoneWacko>also whos confused? :p
23:32<Gonozal_VIII>i'm trying to implement autosave every day/week :-)
23:32<GoneWacko>also, I'm off to bed
23:33<ln->although that wouldn't prevent bjarni from pasting it.
23:33<Gonozal_VIII>night Gonozal_VIII
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23:35<Gonozal_VIII>with daylength patch set to maximum, autosave every month is almost useless
23:39<Gonozal_VIII>stupid slow compiling
23:40<Gonozal_VIII>wow, it seems to work
23:42<Gonozal_VIII>yay both day and week settings work :D
23:44<Gonozal_VIII>old settings are still working too
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 08 00:00:40 2008