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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-02-19

---Logopened Tue Feb 19 00:00:11 2008
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02:29<debian__>I'm trying to install openttd on an windows compter, it tells me is missing or corrupted. Why?
02:29<debian__>Anyonr here?
02:29<ln->let me guess it's because your is missing or corrupted.
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02:30<ln->never ask if anyone is here, that's the most useless question possible.
02:30<debian__>ln-: It is an fresh install, how can it allready be missing or corupted?
02:31<debian__>ln-: The answer is usefull for me.
02:31<debian__>Do I need something before I download the game=
02:31<debian__>Installed on my computer?
02:32<ln->you need certain files from your Transport Tycoon Deluxe CD-ROM.
02:34<ln->i'm sure all this is documented somewhere.
02:34<debian__>ln-: I thought it was free open source...
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02:35<debian__>So I need to pay for an cd to get the game?
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02:36<ln->either pay for one, or steal one.
02:38<ln->i bought the CD through
02:38<debian__>How big is the files I need?
02:39<globester>couple mb
02:39<globester>the files are at orudge's site
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02:44<debian__>Is it also free open-source?
02:44<Fujitsu>The data files can not legally be used without purchasing TTD.
02:45<debian__>how can I help making the graphic files you need?
02:45<debian__>I dont see a warning on the site...
02:47<debian__>I want to make all the grapics for you, where to start?
02:48<Fujitsu>There are a couple of graphics replacement projects. The 8bpp OpenGFX, and that for the new 32bpp graphics subsystem.
02:52<debian__>How do I eat forest?
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04:08<blathijs>michi_cc: Thanks!
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04:16<@peter1138>So are we ready to make RC1 yet? ;)
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05:11<demaker>Hello all!
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05:36<Digitalfox>peter1138 how dare you say RC1 :0
05:39<@peter1138>Why? :p
05:40<debian__>How do I make money?
05:40<keyweed_>sell drugs.
05:40<Digitalfox>beta 4 just released yesterday, give it time to bug reports ;)
05:41<debian__>I'm using beta 4, I'm only loosing money...
05:42<Yexo>are you sure you aren't using transfer?
05:42*Digitalfox want's RC1 has soon has possible, i love that magic patch :0
05:42<debian__>Where should I transport stuff?
05:42<Yexo>transporting coal from a coal mine to a powerplant is a good start
05:42<debian__>Where is my powerplant?
05:43<Yexo>There are multiple on the map, use the minimap to find them
05:43<debian__>It is no road/railroad to it
05:43<Yexo>that's a powerplant
05:43<Yexo>And you have to build the rail yourself ;)
05:43<Yexo>that's kinda the purpose of the game
05:46<debian__>So I only build roads?
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05:47<Yexo>No, you can build rails too
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05:49<debian__>So Now I have money?
05:50<debian__>I'm still loosing a lot...
05:51<Yexo>Can you post a savegame somewhere so I can have a look?
05:51<debian__>Jay, I earned 1.986$
05:52<debian__>Railroads is magically apperaring, why?
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05:52<Yexo>Probably because you're playing with ai opponents which are building railroads
05:53<Yexo>You can disable them in the patch settings
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06:01<debian__>Yexo: He wont try to steal my railroad area then?
06:03<debian__>This game is only point is to build roads?
06:03<Yexo_>The ai can't use your railroads
06:03<Yexo_>What he can do however, is building in an area you planned to build
06:04<Yexo_>About the point of this game: you can play it any way you like.
06:04<Yexo_>Some people like to play with only road vehicles
06:04<Yexo_>other people like to build massive rail networks with hundreds of trains
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06:05<debian__>The stupid train wont load cargo
06:05<debian__>ït goes back and fort from oil and powerplant
06:06<Noldo>oil doesn't goto the power plant
06:06<debian__>Where does it go?
06:07<Yexo_>oil goes to a refinery
06:07<Yexo_>click on the industry to see which cargo's it accepts
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06:11<debian__>The trainstation can store stuff?
06:11<Yexo_>sort of
06:11<Yexo_>all cargo generated by industries is delivered to a nearby station
06:11<Yexo_>but some is lost if you don't transport it in time
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06:14<debian__>But my coal trains is refuses to move...
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06:16<debian__>They are stuck in the garage
06:18<ln->the depot, sir
06:18<Yexo_>Are your signals placed ok?
06:18<Gekz>is it an electric garage on a diesel track
06:18<Gekz>or vice versa
06:18<Yexo_>There can only be one train at the same time within one signal block
06:19<Yexo_>diesel depot with elektric rails isn't a problem :)
06:19<debian__>How can I fix the signal block thing?
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06:25<debian__>Can I have doubble rails too?
06:25<Yexo_>of course, just build two railroads next to eachother with oneway signals facing different directions
06:27<Tefad>LLRR RRLL heh.
06:27<Yexo_>that's not exactly simple to start with :)
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06:31<@peter1138>What do L and R mean?
06:31<Yexo_>the driving side
06:31<Yexo_>LR is normal two way track
06:31<debian__>Noo, I started new game, noww I've wasted all the money...
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06:32<Yexo_>LLRR is four tracks, two going one way and two going the other way
06:32<debian__>Ther I got meny
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06:32<debian__>How many wagons can An train have?
06:32<@peter1138>Is L and R some standard system? Because to mean it means nothing.
06:32<Yexo_>it's used in openttdcoop a lot
06:32<@peter1138>Yes, but I mean standard.
06:33<Yexo_>I have no idea :)
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06:37<@peter1138>So is LLRR RRLL: ↑↑↓↓ ↓↓↑↑ ?
06:38<@peter1138>So if you had a loop...
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06:38<@peter1138>It would end up as ↓↓↑↑ ↑↑↓↓ on the other side...?
06:38<Yexo_>that's also possible
06:38<Yexo_>L and R don't have any particluar direction
06:38<@peter1138>but that's not LLRR RRLL any more...
06:39<demaker>is it best to have different kind of transport or is it best to stick to airplanes etc?
06:39<Yexo_>it's only that every L-lane is going in the same direction, and opposite to any R-lane
06:39<Yexo_>demaker: whatever makes you have the most fun of your game :)
06:40<demaker>hehe okay.. i just love this game.. played it 10 years ago and startet yesterday hehe
06:40<fjb>demaker: And the patches you are using. Try to start an airplane only game with the passenger destinations patch. :-)
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06:42<debian__>Can an coal mine become empty?
06:42<debian__>How do I make an train turn in the railroad?
06:42<fjb>Yes it can.
06:43<Yexo_>but it normally won't if you provide good service
06:44<fjb>There is a button on the right side of the vehicle window that lets the train reverse.
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06:56<demaker>fjb, what do you mean?
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07:00<demaker>How do i upgrade busses etc?
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07:14<Vikthor>demaker: Just send it in depot sell the bus and buy new one
07:14<Vikthor>or use autoreplace
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07:31*Hendikins hrms, idly wonders how long it would take him to build openttd on his build farm
07:33<Hendikins>Need autofox to finish first.
07:33<Hendikins>I can build Firefox in 14 mins
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07:34<@peter1138>Takes my X2 5600+ 1 minute for a release build
07:34<@peter1138>30 seconds for debug
07:35<Yexo_>depends whether I compile on windows or linux :)
07:35<Yexo_>linux is under 1 minute
07:35<Yexo_>windows can take up to 5 minutes
07:36<Hendikins>peter1138: My build farm is an X2 4800+, Turion X2 1.9GHz, Sempron 3000+ and dual Athlon MP 2600+
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07:57<fjb>Is there an option to preven trains from reversing in front of signals?
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08:17<mcbane>hmm george barly haning around here aye?
08:18*fjb can't remember seeing him here.
08:18<Gonozal_VIII>me neither
08:19<Forked>meep meep
08:19<mcbane>cause its fuuny with his closing mechanism. most close as intended except oilwells forest sawmills and a few other industries.
08:22<fjb>Not all industries are in the same stage of development. Beta 4 is the most advanced.
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08:23<mcbane>i have no clue about the grf coding but it have to be defined for every single industry?
08:23<debian__>But how can I make an lot of money?
08:24<fjb>Yes, for every single industry.
08:24<debian__>The stuff the oil raffinery makes, where should it go?
08:24<fjb>debian__: Use the cheat menu. :-)
08:25<fjb>debian__: Standard oil rafinery or an industry replacement grf?
08:25<Noldo>debian__: some cities accept goods
08:25<mcbane>debia_ if you use ECS potrol goes to gasstation and reafined stuff goes to chem industry
08:25<debian__>The thing that comes in beta4
08:25<Yexo>goods ahve to be transported to towns
08:25<Gonozal_VIII>you get money for selling tracks, sell them all and you have more money
08:26<Gonozal_VIII>(that's how politicians think)
08:26<mcbane>yes and its a lie.
08:26<fjb>Some houses of towns are accepting good. They have to be in the station cachement area. Then that station accept goods.
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08:29<debian__>How many wagons can an train have?
08:29<Sionide>but it gets slower the more they are
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08:30<Gonozal_VIII>not with additional engines too
08:30<debian__>Can I have two trains?
08:30<debian__>On one train?
08:31<Sionide>try it in the depot, build two then drag the second one to behind the first one
08:31<Sionide>and they couple up
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08:35<debian__>If I want an big network, like double lanes trains, how?
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08:37<debian__>Does the cityes want food?
08:38<Yexo>not when playing temperate
08:38<Yexo>just build your network piece by piece and extend it further
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08:46<debian__>Will the game go for ever?
08:46<debian__>It isnt done ever?
08:47<Yexo>although you get your score in 2051 you can still play on after that date
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09:10<debian__>Some of my trains refuses to turn
09:10<debian__>How to make double lanes, and can they change lanes?
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09:16<debian__>I want this to work
09:17<Noldo>with some clever signaling
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09:22<Gonozal_VIII>no, quak
09:22<frosch123>quak :)
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09:34<fjb>Quak frosch123
09:34<frosch123>moin fjb
09:34<fjb>frosch123: I missed you yesterday evening.
09:34*frosch123 was busy
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10:02<DJ-Nekkid>debian__: with SML ?
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10:07<DJ-Nekkid>shift/switch main line
10:09<@peter1138>Even 'shift/switch main line' means nothing to me, so I doubt it can mean anything to a newbie...
10:09<SmatZ>DJ-Nekkid: why is it a 2-way exit presignal?
10:10<@peter1138>SmatZ, because the openttdcoop people like to abuse signals for other purposes...
10:10<DJ-Nekkid>SmatZ: because it wont work without :)
10:10<SmatZ>when train reverses because it has to wait for a long time, it blocks the ML
10:11<SmatZ>peter1138: I have to say I like it ;-) but sometimes, I don't understand that overuse
10:11<DJ-Nekkid>the trains will only enter the 2nd ML if it's free, if it's a 1way it will go to the combo and stay until it's free...
10:12<DJ-Nekkid>and peter1138; i were makeing the screenshot when u asked :)
10:12<Yexo>DJ-Nekkid: are you sure you didn't make a few mistakes there?
10:12<DJ-Nekkid>Yexo: not 100%, but i made aprox 100 of thoose last coop-game, and they worked
10:13<SmatZ>well, I played that game for a while, and this was the place where it was blocked
10:13<DJ-Nekkid>well, it is build according to mark's example...
10:14<Yexo>that looks more like it
10:14<Yexo>the signal before exit 1way/combo 2way has to be a presignal
10:15<Gonozal_VIII>no need for a penalty, it's longer anyways
10:15<Gonozal_VIII>other version is better
10:16<DJ-Nekkid>Gonozal_VIII: mine?
10:16<@peter1138>It's so ugly :o
10:16<Gonozal_VIII>yep, ugly^^
10:16<Gonozal_VIII>but looks like it could work
10:16<DJ-Nekkid>Yexo: if the 2nd ml is not free, and the exit is not free (because the trains are closely packed) it's like haveing a 3 tile signalblock
10:17<Gonozal_VIII>longer signalblocks are very bad
10:17<Yexo>yes, but if there are both not free then it *is* desired behaviour to wait for the first one to become free, isn't it?
10:17<Gonozal_VIII>jams everything
10:18<Gonozal_VIII>trains should never stop
10:18<Gonozal_VIII>so presignal entry bad
10:18<DJ-Nekkid>Gonozal_VIII: i agree...
10:18<@peter1138>And this is why I don't play openttdcoop. It's so tedious.
10:18<DJ-Nekkid>peter1138: it's actually fun...
10:19<DJ-Nekkid>last game lasted more then 300 years
10:19<DJ-Nekkid>that's more then 70 hours
10:19<DJ-Nekkid>if it were not close to 400
10:19<fjb>But some people have more fun building pretty lines through beautiful landscapes.
10:20<SmatZ>yeah, without terraforming :)
10:20<Gonozal_VIII>i try to combine that :-) lines where trains never have to stop or slow down but that still look good
10:20*SmatZ likes no-terraforming maps with 1000+ trains ;)
10:20<SmatZ>and at least 1024x1024 map :-D
10:21<fjb>Without isn't always possible, but with as few terraforming as possible.
10:21<fjb>1024x1024 map is nice in multiplayer, but I feel lost on it in a single player game.
10:22<Yexo>I normally build them like this
10:22<SmatZ>for how long trains?
10:22<Yexo>not measured this time :)
10:22<Yexo>tl 3 indeed
10:23<fjb>SmatZ: I looked at the makefiles fpr OpenTTD, but I don't know enough about automake etc. to make new makefiles for OpenTTD to compile it all at once.
10:23<Yexo>just type ./configure
10:23<SmatZ>fjb: neither me :(
10:24<fjb>You need at least two options for gcc to make it work. And it may have sideeffects on varaible and function scope.
10:26<@peter1138>Why would you want to compile it all at once?
10:26<fjb>To get an far more optimized executable.
10:27<fjb>Optimisation is local to a single input file now. It would be global to the whole OpenTTD source then.
10:27<Yexo>you can try cat *.h *.cpp > gcc :)
10:28<Yexo>that should be | g++
10:28<SmatZ>you have to -I correct directories
10:29<fjb>Or use some smarter make replacement.
10:29<Eddi|zuHause2>| grep -v '#include "'
10:29<Noldo>fjb: what on earth are you talking about?
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10:29<Morloth>Hi everyone! :)_
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10:31<fjb>Noldo: the current source is compiled one source file at a time. Optimisation is local to that file. gcc has a global optimizer option where the optimisation is global to the whole code base. But it has to be called with all source files as arguments at once.
10:31<fjb>Hi Morloth
10:37<Morloth>Does someone have time to review & commit my patch for NoAI @, please?
10:37<+glx>Morloth: split it in many parts (it's way too big)
10:37<Morloth>I'd like to develop NoAI furder but I don't want to create patches which depend upon patches; Things get messy :)
10:38<+glx>and I don't like your change for GetCargoProduction and GetCargoAcceptance
10:38<+glx>better add functions to just tell if it accepts or produces
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10:39<+glx>and keep the GetCargo* as they are
10:39<Morloth>glx: But the old methods didn't gave any sensable information
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10:39<+glx>maybe for you, but some AI writer may want to know the exact amount
10:40<Morloth>glx: Hmmz... Perhaps you're right, but I don't see the sense in the numbers it returned
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10:40<+glx>it is the numbers you can see when you use the query tile tool
10:41<Morloth>But what does an acceptance of 24 mean as to an acceptance of 16 or 2?
10:42<Morloth>Thought it was kinda dodgy, those functions
10:42<Morloth>But I'll rewrite it one I get home tonight and create a new patch :)
10:43<Morloth>Would be good to see NoAI back on track again
10:45<+glx>higher acceptance means your station has less chance to stop accepting stuff when the town decides to replace/remove buildings
10:45<Morloth>But you'd recommend I create 2 separate patches? 1) Make methods static. 2) The added functions ?
10:46<+glx>it's always better to do small patches
10:47<Morloth>I'll keep that in mind :)
10:47<+glx>or at least 1 patch for 1 change
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10:47<Gonozal_VIII>yes because devs are lazy people and don't want to read more than 10 lines at once
10:48<Morloth>glx: I kinda got over excited I guess and coded away at NoAI the last couple of days :)
10:48<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: not only, it's easier to understand 1 change than 10 when you read a diff
10:48<Gonozal_VIII>i know, i know ;-)
10:48<Gonozal_VIII>just kidding
10:48<Morloth>hehe :)
10:51<@peter1138>That's okay, you're on ignore now
10:52<NukeBuster>speaking of small patches..
10:53<yorick>ping *
10:53<NukeBuster>did anyone take a look at
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10:55*Maedhros has looked, yes
10:56*SmatZ too
10:56<NukeBuster>Do you have an opinion about it?
10:56<Gonozal_VIII>been looking
10:57<SmatZ>I think it can be useful
10:57*Belugas has seen it, but has no opinion, since not playing nor doing MP
10:58*Maedhros agrees with Belugas
10:58<Gonozal_VIII>opinions are for people that can't make their own reality
10:59<Maedhros>that makes no sense
10:59<Gonozal_VIII>sure does
10:59<Morloth>I'm signing off, cya guys tonight!
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10:59<Gonozal_VIII>everything is the truth then
11:01<Maedhros>and that makes you indifferent to everything? you don't like it, dislike it, anything?
11:04<Gonozal_VIII>why would you dislike something you made yourself?
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11:05<Gonozal_VIII>or like it... if you don't know different
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11:09<@peter1138>Isn't there already a password on join thing?
11:09<NukeBuster>not in trunk (as far as I know)
11:09<@peter1138>Ah, there's the default password thing
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11:11<NukeBuster>there was a discussion about that in the suggestions forum
11:12<NukeBuster>This got into trunk quite recently, though it have two disadvantages - in game you don't see whether there is some password or not (you have to look into the config file to check for that)
11:12<NukeBuster>Second, it is stored in plaintext in config file. If you do not realize that and send config file to someone (like with some bug report to the bugtracker) ... oops, your password just became public.
11:12<NukeBuster>(that was posted by Bilbo)
11:15<+glx>NukeBuster: usually the .cfg is not needed for bug reports (as all important settings are in the .sav)
11:16<+glx>but we may ask for it, or at least some specific settings
11:16<NukeBuster>is it possible to change the default password in game?
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11:30<@peter1138>Isn't that what the button does?
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11:40<Draakon>what's up?
11:41<Gonozal_VIII>the opposite of down
11:42<Gonozal_VIII>that's up
11:42<Gonozal_VIII>well, you asked :-)
11:44<NukeBuster>Peter1138, that's indeed what the button does.
11:45<NukeBuster>I just like the fact it would pop up if you don't have it set.
11:46<@peter1138>Well, add it then ;)
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11:47<NukeBuster>Well that's the patch :)
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11:48<NukeBuster>if you create a new company and no default password set then: ShowNetworkCompanyPasswordWindow();
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12:16<Sacro>Big 'O' notation! :D
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12:20<Eddi|zuHause2>O no... he figured us out...
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12:20<Eddi|zuHause2>they're called 'Landau Symbols' btw.
12:21*LordAzamath is going to say hello in a moment, be ready!
12:21<Eddi|zuHause2>you, sir, are massive failure in person ;)
12:22<LordAzamath>but atleast I've got beta-4 downloading atm..
12:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm stuck with 12066 for a while, because i can't be bothered with savegame compatibility
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12:23<LordAzamath>hello dih :)
12:24<Sacro>LordAzamath: you failed that quite amusingly
12:24<LordAzamath>yeah, I know ^^
12:25<LordAzamath>had to ask help because my keyboard.... well let's say I don't feel comfortable with it :P
12:25*LordAzamath is listening the Queen cassete "A kind of magic" ^^
12:26<Gonozal_VIII>yay queen
12:26<Eddi|zuHause2>michi_cc: have you considered a feature of 'real' PBS? in order to reserve a path, every switch leading to this path from 'outside' must be secured, otherwise no path can be locked (= speed limit 40km/h), this prevents crashing trains from the side ('Flankenfahrt')
12:27<Eddi|zuHause2>'secured' means either the next switch is in a position not leading to this path, or a derailment device is installed
12:28<Gonozal_VIII>the switches don't switch...
12:29<LordAzamath>pain is so close to pleasure.. But that's completely unrealted to current topic ^^
12:29<Sacro> <- hahhaha
12:29<Eddi|zuHause2>no, but a train without reserved path cannot take that switch even if it wants to
12:29<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: catch point?
12:30<@peter1138>'real' PBS? heh
12:30<Sacro>peter1138: yes
12:30<Sacro>though i want ABS :(
12:30<LordAzamath>tt-forums has another spammer..
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: you can e.g. safely force a train through a signal without path
12:30<Sacro>but i fear that'd be hard to implement
12:30<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: actually, IRL it is up to the signalman to make sure all points are locked
12:30<LordAzamath>I tried to report post, but it was already reported :D
12:31<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: german signal control stations have devices that ensure these lockings, otherwise the signal cannot be turned green
12:31<Eddi|zuHause2>signals have an 'override' for that, but it's not a green light, but a white light
12:31<@peter1138>How does this relate to PBS?
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12:33<Eddi|zuHause2>like i said, it provides more safety in case someone is messing around...
12:34<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: yes, but a signalman can give permission for a train to pass a red
12:34<Sacro>otherwise how would you get passed a TCF
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12:34<Sacro>track circuit failure
12:35<Sacro>short circuit between the lines, hopefully makes all signals show red
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12:36<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, that is like the 'ignore signal' switch in the game
12:36<@peter1138>You should manually ensure it's safe if you're going to fiddle with that...
12:37<Eddi|zuHause2>not 'so'... i was just throwing this into the discussion
12:37<Eddi|zuHause2>but it's going the wrong way ;)
12:38<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause2: yes, same concept
12:38<Sacro>you have to make sure the way is clear
12:38<Sacro>the ability to lock stes of points in a certain drection would be nice
12:38<Sacro>as would having choseable crossover/single slip/double slip
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12:39<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, in all these special cases which circumvent a locked path, speed limit is 40km/h
12:40<Eddi|zuHause2>and sometimes, they tell the train driver to "drive on sight" [e.g. he has to stop behind a train already waiting in the next block]
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12:41<@peter1138>Sacro needs his realistic track simulation :o
12:41<@peter1138>Didn't locomotion show switch states visually?
12:42<@peter1138>More pixels to show it in, of course.
12:42<Morloth>glx: Sorry to bother you again, but I'm still not sure how to submit a patch which changes almost all methods in NoAI static. Should I create a patch which applies to all files or do you want a different patch per file?
12:43<+glx>if you can do it in steps it's better
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12:44<Morloth>glx: ok :)
12:46<LordAzamath>how could I force compiling of specific revision?
12:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r12186 /trunk/src/sound.cpp: -Fix [FS#1784](r12169): assert when trying to play tile sound at NW border of map (placing buyos, leveling land)
12:46<Sacro>peter1138: yes, i do want it to be more real
12:46<Sacro>though i would prefer it if i could make sure a train cannot switch lines on a crossover
12:47<Sacro>until we get digonal bridges
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12:48<Eddi|zuHause2>LordAzamath: svn up -rXXXX
12:48<LordAzamath>agh.. what's revision for beta4 then?
12:48<LordAzamath>I downloaded source this time
12:48<Sacro>LordAzamath: /tags/0.6.0-beta4
12:49<LordAzamath>so svn co .../tags/0.6.0-beta4 ?
12:49<LordAzamath>or can I up it too?
12:49<Sacro>no ...
12:49<Sacro>yes, http://...
12:49<+glx>you can also export if you don't plan to modify it
12:49<LordAzamath>I would've thought it's svn...
12:50<LordAzamath>glx, I originally asked for that.. exporting in that case
12:50<LordAzamath>I didn't know how to call it :D
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>LordAzamath: if you have source without svn, there is a ./configure option for the revision string
12:50<LordAzamath>./configure and?
12:50<+glx>not needed for releases
12:50<Eddi|zuHause2>./configure --help
12:51<Eddi|zuHause2>also, you can svn switch if you have a trunk checkout
12:52<LordAzamath>one question, why don't releases read the external location for data files? I now have to move manually all trg*r grfs.. :(
12:52<Sacro>./configure --prefix=?
12:52<Eddi|zuHause2>you can also configure the paths it searches in
12:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r12187 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Add: frosch as dev. Last, but not least
12:52<Sacro>cos i have /usr/share/openttd{,-svn}
12:53<LordAzamath>aghh nvm
12:53<+glx>and by default it tries install and home without specifying it in configure
12:53<LordAzamath>I'll stay at compiling nightlys :D, easier..
12:53<debian__>Can it jump from station to station?
12:54<Sacro>debian__: pardon?
12:55-!-dih_ [] has joined #openttd
12:55<Sacro>dih_: bounce bounce bounce
12:57<Sacro>Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation?
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12:58<dih_>Sacro: those are isp issues
12:59<Sacro>dih_: hehe, sucky isp
12:59*Sacro is on uni wifi
12:59<Sacro>but my bouncer seems stable enough
12:59<Sacro>ssh + screen + irssi ftw
13:00*UFO64 makes note to speak out words before he asks what they mean
13:00<Sacro>jfgi ;)
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13:06<Morloth>Does somebody know how I can apply a couple of patches at once? I want to try something like: 'patch -p0 < `cat patches/*`' << But this construction doesn't work...
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13:07<+glx>cat patches/* | patch -p0
13:07<@Belugas>hello mister conflict, though...
13:07<@Belugas>hello Wolf01 :)
13:09<Morloth>glx, thx :)
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13:13<debian__>What I meant was, can I move it from one track to another if tey are connected to the same station?
13:14<Yexo>debian__, what do you want to move?
13:16<Eddi|zuHause2>so much for IRC being a real time communication system ;)
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13:21<Morloth>glx: Is this better: ?
13:21<+glx>Morloth: why opening a new task?
13:21<Morloth>lol, that was fast :)
13:21<Morloth>glx: Well I figured the old one was kind of depricated ?
13:22<+glx>you can add comments and attach new files
13:22<+glx>and the purpose of the patch didn't change
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13:24<Morloth>glx: you're right, my bad
13:24<debian__>Can I get intrest for having money?
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13:25<Yexo>debian__, you don't get interest.
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13:26<Eddi|zuHause2>nobody gets interest from having money
13:26<Yexo>and you can't move (in the sense of teleport) trains within a station
13:26<Eddi|zuHause2>interest comes from investing money
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13:28<Eddi|zuHause2>i miss using Alt+←↓→↑ for moving the mouse :(
13:28<debian__>Eddi|zuHause2: I get instres in my bank
13:28<Eddi|zuHause2>debian__: yes, because you lend your money to the bank, not because you have the money
13:29<Eddi|zuHause2>that is the easiest form of investment
13:29<Eddi|zuHause2>also gives the least interest
13:29<debian__>How much money should I have in 1980?
13:29<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: But that involves two keys, whereas <wiggles mouse> means your fingers don't leave the home row
13:29<Eddi|zuHause2>i have DM
13:30<Eddi|zuHause2>Prof_Frink: occasionally, i get tired of holding the mouse
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13:30<Eddi|zuHause2>it's a little too small for my paws...
13:30<Prof_Frink>Well, I'd have to move my fingers from the home row to use the mouse
13:33<debian__>I have -60.000
13:33<Eddi|zuHause2>these two statements seem opposite to me... or i am missing your point...
13:33<Prof_Frink>I can haz ThinkPad
13:33<debian__>I', just curious
13:33<Eddi|zuHause2>oh that explains a bit ;)
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause2>i hate touchpads... they always go off without me wanting to...
13:33<Tefad>some laptops have a touchpad silence button
13:33<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: Again, ThinkPad.
13:33<debian__>My oil thing dissapeared... Why?
13:34<Gonozal_VIII>they do that
13:35<debian__>Now most of my inncome dissapeared
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13:35<Gonozal_VIII>you have to adapt
13:35<Eddi|zuHause2>around 1980, all oil wells close down, and instead oil platforms appear
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13:36<Tefad>unless you have no water large enough, eh?
13:36<debian__>But I donno how to build ships
13:37<Eddi|zuHause2>look at the top of your screen, you have icons for railway track, road, waterways and airports
13:37<Eddi|zuHause2>each stands for one transport type
13:37<Eddi|zuHause2>use waterways for building ships and canals
13:38<Eddi|zuHause2>you can hold the right mouse button, then it explains what this icon does
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13:39<debian__>But I donno how to build ships
13:39<debian__>Stupid putthy
13:39<Prof_Frink>debian__: Much like trains or RVs.
13:39<Gonozal_VIII>same way as other vehicles :P
13:39<Prof_Frink>Build a depot, then click on it.
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13:42<debian__>I have only built trains
13:42<Gonozal_VIII>see.. same
13:45<Prof_Frink>Well, not quite
13:45<Prof_Frink>You don't need to add wagons to ships
13:46<Tefad>no rails
13:46<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm there are ships that consist of linked parts in rl
13:46<Tefad>no train crashes
13:46<Tefad>but you do have buoys, like waypoints
13:48<fjb>Building stations with the new grfs is fun:
13:49<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: That would hardly work in TTD, ships have no size.
13:54<debian__>How can I make an railroad one wa`y?
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13:54<+glx>use signals
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13:55<SmatZ>everything has 'no size', only collision distances :)
13:55<fjb>Ships don't even have that. :-P
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13:58<debian__>I dont understand that...
13:59<fjb>Try it out. It is just a game.
13:59<debian__>What if I crash an train?
14:00<fjb>Then you have to buy a bew one.
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14:03-!-mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
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14:06<Eddi|zuHause2>or reload ;)
14:06-!-XeryusTC [] has joined #openttd
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14:08<debian__>How can I get billions without doing nothing?
14:08<Prof_Frink>By doing lots of things.
14:09-!-dih [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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14:10<@peter1138>By cheating :D
14:11<debian__>peter1138: Listening...
14:11-!-dih_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:11<@peter1138>Well that's all I was going to say...
14:12<Eddi|zuHause2>well, you'll have to find that button on your own i presume ;)
14:13<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i take suggestions for beautification of this station...,%202.%20Mai%201985.png
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14:15<@peter1138>What's that middle track doing there?
14:15<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, that's an old track for reversing trains
14:15<Eddi|zuHause2>commonly known as "Spitzkehre"
14:16<Eddi|zuHause2>it's not used anymore since the opening of the western goods tracks
14:16<Eddi|zuHause2>i leave it there for hysterical raisins
14:17<Eddi|zuHause2>trains would come from the northwest, turn around, and leave to the southwest
14:18<Eddi|zuHause2>and vice versa
14:19<Eddi|zuHause2>it reached the limits of capacity very quickly, though ;)
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14:28<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: which grf is that?
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14:29<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: and why are your buffers not electrified?
14:29<@Bjarni>life is a bitch
14:30<fjb>Don't know why they are not.
14:30<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: and how do you get a BR 75 to carry 500t coal?
14:30<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: flat land.
14:32<Eddi|zuHause2>"- PBS sensitive tiles: some tiles react when they detect a train entering the track. The "train shed" facility opens its doors, for example." <- does that work in OpenTTD?
14:32<@Bjarni>not that I know of
14:33<Eddi|zuHause2>i mean with the patch ;)
14:33<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: it does
14:33-!-dih [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:33<fjb>It does yapp 4.x
14:33<@Bjarni>btw we are really late regarding PBS
14:34<@Bjarni>I found an old plan this weekend and it claimed PBS to be finished sometime in May 2006
14:34<Eddi|zuHause2>well, we had PBS two years ago, but someone had to rip it out ;)
14:34<@Bjarni>so even if it's finished right away it's almost 2 years late :P
14:35<@Bjarni>according to the plan it's YAPF based PBS without the issues we had back then
14:35<Eddi|zuHause2>well, then blame KUDr ;)
14:37<@Bjarni>that's not what I meant
14:37<@Bjarni>the idea is good enough
14:37<fjb>Better late than never.
14:38<@Bjarni>the first implementation just told us how it could be done and the limitations it had so starting over with a new design to avoid those limitations is a good thing
14:39<@Bjarni>but it's always a help to know how NOT to do it ;)
14:39<@peter1138>And YAPP rocks...
14:39<fjb>Yeah, it does...
14:39<Eddi|zuHause2>limitation disturbs me very signal ;)
14:40<Gonozal_VIII>hehe who wrote that?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause2>i did.
14:40<Eddi|zuHause2>right there ↑
14:40<Gonozal_VIII>no i read that in the forum some time ago
14:41<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah. i know... but i forgot who it was
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14:57<DJ-Nekkid>im makeing a grf, and i want the elrails to be more/higher priced then non-electrified ones ... how? ;)
14:57<SpComb>tcp6 0 0 2002:5282:1012:123:3979 :::* LISTEN 18955/openttd
14:57<SpComb>tcp6 0 11 2002:5282:1012:123:3979 2002:5282:1012:12:45794 ESTABLISHED18955/openttd
14:57<SpComb>tcp6 11 0 2002:5282:1012:12:45794 2002:5282:1012:123:3979 ESTABLISHED19754/openttd
14:57<SpComb>I'm running an IPv6 openttd server on, feel free to join :)
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14:58<yorick>is that even possible?
14:58-!-Zaviori [] has quit []
14:58<Morloth>SpComb: Isn't that working because of a IP6 -> IP4 tunnel? :)
14:59<SpComb>no, I added in IPv6 support to the code
14:59<SpComb>still needs a bit of tweaking though, doesn't work via e.g. the ingame gui, but it does via -n
15:00<@peter1138>The server list protocol doesn't support that, of course...
15:00<SpComb>nope, needs a fair amount of work
15:01<SpComb>that's next, first I need to eat...
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15:05<SpComb>Client #2 name: 'Player' status: 'active' frame-lag: 1 company: 1 IP: 2002:5282:1012:1234:250:8dff:fed5:c0b9 unique-id: '28e6e7edefe5bd5fa1bb6a6c44bb4cc7'
15:06*SpComb wonders how many things that will break
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16:05<DJ-Nekkid>doesnt the prop 0E for trains action0 work as it (might) do in ttdp?
16:05<DJ-Nekkid>0D \b255 0E 9A 4B 00 00 <-- points at aircraft puch cost
16:07<DaleStan>It works as long as you specify one of the three documented pointers. Pick another value and all bets are off. Never mind that the documentation says you can point to other base costs too.
16:07<DJ-Nekkid>so only steam/diesel/electrics?
16:08<@peter1138>Yes, only those work in OpenTTD.
16:08<DJ-Nekkid>damn :) hehe
16:08<DJ-Nekkid>gotta figure out something else then...
16:09<DJ-Nekkid>there is something about the general action 0, prop 08 ...
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16:09<DJ-Nekkid>but thoose seem to effect all costs?
16:10<@peter1138>Yes, that's what base costs are.
16:10<DJ-Nekkid>but if i use that prop08 it will change all base costs?
16:12<DJ-Nekkid>-1 * 0 00 08 01 01 2A 08 <factor> should change the 2A (steam running cost) by some kind of factor?
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16:23<SpComb>yay, now I get to replace every call to inet_ntoa etc. with something proper
16:30<debian__>Can openttd utilize dual-core cpus?
16:30<Gonozal_VIII>no dual core, no gpu
16:33<debian__>No gpu?
16:34<debian__>So I can run it without 3d acceleration?
16:34<@peter1138>No 3D acceleration is involved...
16:34<Gonozal_VIII>does it look 3d?^^
16:34<debian__>Can I apt-get it?
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16:35<debian__>On debian?
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16:35<DJ-Nekkid>peter1138: im not sure if it's a bug ... or if it should be filed as one but: if i add running costs to a wagon via newgrf, it dont show up in the buy menu...
16:37<Gonozal_VIII>wagons have running cost?
16:37<DJ-Nekkid>not usually perhaps, but they should...
16:37<DJ-Nekkid>and it's possible to add it
16:37<DaleStan>debian__: Debian unstable, I believe you can.
16:38<debian__>DaleStan: I have super stable...
16:38<debian__>DaleStan: Can I still have it?
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause2>why would you do that?
16:39<DaleStan>debian__: Yes. "$ ./configure && make"
16:39<debian__>DaleStan: Compiling?
16:39<DaleStan>Or you can download the package.
16:39<@peter1138>DJ-Nekkid, OpenTTD does not support running costs for wagons.
16:40<DJ-Nekkid>peter1138: it support it, it just dont show in the menu
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16:40<DJ-Nekkid>or something
16:40<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, mountain routes would be so much easier if i had diagonal slopes, stations and tunnels/bridges
16:41<debian__>OpenTTD doesnt use 3d accelleration?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause2>nothing is 3D about openttd
16:41<Prof_Frink>no, openttd still does not use 3d acceleration
16:41<Gonozal_VIII>change the map to 6 sided tiles :-)
16:41<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2, lots is 3D...
16:41<debian__>Does it run on 600mhz duron?
16:41<Gonozal_VIII>it runs on cell phones
16:41<debian__>peter1138: Now I'm relly confused...
16:41<Eddi|zuHause2>TT original ran on 25MHz
16:42<debian__>Gonozal_VIII: Where to download?
16:42<@peter1138>Where to download what?
16:42<debian__>peter1138: openttd for my cellularphone!
16:43<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: the advanced daylength patch, does that reduce town growth?
16:44<Gonozal_VIII>should it?
16:44<Eddi|zuHause2>do you accept feature requests? :p
16:45<Gonozal_VIII>i accept features in patch form^^
16:45<debian__>But it needs symbian...
16:45<Eddi|zuHause2>that is easy ;)
16:46<debian__>Eddi|zuHause2: Can I install symbian on an java phone?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause2>debian__: i was not replying to you
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16:47<Gonozal_VIII>port it to java ;-)
16:47<debian__>Gonozal_VIII: Port openttd or symbian for java?
16:48<Gonozal_VIII>wouldn't make sense to run an os in java^^
16:48<debian__>Gonozal_VIII: Could be done
16:49<debian__>So then I have to learn java and c++. Is it difficult to open-source games?
16:50<Gonozal_VIII>java and c++ have a lot in common
16:50<Gonozal_VIII>but the data type stuff is completely different
16:50<debian__>But if I find an game, is it hard to opensource it?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't think that attempt will lead anywhere :p
16:51<DJ-Nekkid>debian__: reverse engeneering
16:51<debian__>DJ-Nekkid: How long?
16:52<ln->for you, approximately 75 years and 3 months.
16:53<debian__>But open tdd only took a few years?
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16:54<DJ-Nekkid>it started in 2001 or something i think
16:55<Gonozal_VIII>and it will be finished in the year 3001 or something^^
16:55<DJ-Nekkid>prolly :)
16:55<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: in town_cmd.cpp, there is a function "void OnTick_Town()", add there a line like "if (_tick_counter % _patches.daylength != 0) return;"
16:56<ln->has anyone tried compiling C code for the JVM?
16:56<ln->after appropriate conversion.
16:56<@Belugas>debian__, your question about the lenght of a conversion project is related to the size of the original binary
16:57<@Belugas>and of course, your skill levell
16:57<Gonozal_VIII>isn't there other stuff that happens based on ticks too?
16:57<Gonozal_VIII>in towns..
16:57<ln->Belugas: and if one has to ask, the skill level is zero.
16:57<@Belugas>not to me to judge ;)
16:58<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: i see only calls to GrowTown(.) and UpdateTownRadius(.)
16:58<debian__>But is every game beeing open-sourced?
16:58<ln->of course not.
16:59<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: you can also go one level higher in landscape.cpp, then you can also affect tree growth and stuff
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16:59<@Belugas>night, going home
17:00<Gonozal_VIII>ic ic... if (_patches.daylength_towngrowth && _tick_counter % _patches.daylength != 0) return;
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17:01<Gonozal_VIII>but i'm busy watching anime^^
17:01<Eddi|zuHause2>i've ran out of doctor who episodes...
17:01<Gonozal_VIII>me too
17:02<Gonozal_VIII>but i only watched the three new seasons
17:02<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm not through, the rest is just not finished
17:02<+glx><Gonozal_VIII> but i'm busy watching anime^^ <-- which one?
17:02<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm sarah connor thingy should be tere too
17:02<Eddi|zuHause2>it is...
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>it's in the queue right after skins ;)
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>but knight rider is not finished yet
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>it's taking forever
17:03<Gonozal_VIII>it's called ah (or oh) my goddess, a friend gave me a link to it earlier today
17:04<Eddi|zuHause2>1 Day 9:46
17:04<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: nice one
17:04<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't usually watch anime...
17:04<+glx>I saw both seasons and the 20th anniversary episodes
17:05<Gonozal_VIII>but watching japanese with english subs is suboptimal... can't watch and read well at the same time
17:06<+glx>I have it with french subtitles :)
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>yes, he gave me that link first^^
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>very useful^^
17:07<Gonozal_VIII>i found some episodes of the first season in german and/or english dub
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17:08<Gonozal_VIII>but that was on youtube... low quality and split up in 3-4 parts per episode
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>german dub of animes is often cut
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>because they are usually shown in daytime program
17:09<Gonozal_VIII>no blood or nakedness there anyways...
17:10<Eddi|zuHause2>also often, "strong language" is reduced in the dub
17:11<Eddi|zuHause2>i already fear what they are going to do to the poor dexter...
17:12<ln->i'm assuming you are not talking about Darkly Dreaming Dexter?
17:12<Eddi|zuHause2>sure i am
17:13<ln->the crime scene investigator?
17:13<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, that one
17:14<ln->a nice series.
17:14<Eddi|zuHause2>one of the greatest series of all times ;)
17:14<ln->but not much strong language, as far as i remember.
17:15<Eddi|zuHause2>ever listened to Deb talking?
17:15<Eddi|zuHause2>like every second word out of her mouth is "fuck"
17:15<ln->ah, yes, that's true.
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17:15<ln->maybe i just ignore most of what women say? :)
17:16<ln->the novel is a-ok too.
17:16<Eddi|zuHause2>like that one conversation she has: [witty comment from someone] "Fuck you!" [another witty comment] "Fuck you twice"
17:18-!-Yexo [] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg]
17:19<SpComb>hmm... does does OpenTTD's build system work? I'm getting linker errors because I'm trying to use two functions from network/network.cpp in network/network_udp.cpp
17:20<ln->the current build system is crap.
17:20<+glx>it's better than it used to be
17:20<ln->it used to be better.
17:21<SmatZ>ln-: come with something new and better, and it may be implemented
17:21<@peter1138>You're entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong...
17:22<SpComb>nevermind, some issues with argument const-ness
17:22<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: the author often uses three-D combinations such as "Darkly Dreaming Dexter", "Dearly Devoted Deborah", ... some work for german translators.
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>ln-: this kind of thought usually gets totally translated away...
17:23<Eddi|zuHause2>like when in Charmed, all episode titles are references to movies or common phrases... nothing left in the translation, except in some rare incidences...
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17:25<ln->the first ~110 pages of the novel are exactly as in the tv series, but then things start going different.
17:25<Eddi|zuHause2>you can't stick to the books forever...
17:27<ln->the Da Vinci Code movie was good at it.
17:27<ln->though the book was written like a movie script.
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause2>pretty much all movies that i know books for divert quite a bit
17:30<Eddi|zuHause2>but i read about as many books as i watch anime ;)
17:31<UnderBuilder>I don't understand why the dedicated server requires the TTD files
17:31<UnderBuilder>it doesn't use it
17:32<ln->it does
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>in the past, some game mechanics depended on sprite sizes and stuff
17:33<Eddi|zuHause2>what you can try is replace all sprites with empty ones
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause2>passenger wagons are too short :(
17:41<Gonozal_VIII>too short?
17:42<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, they'd look much better if they were 50% longer
17:43<Eddi|zuHause2>i have 10 tile cargo trains, but 10 tile passenger trains look ugly
17:43<Gonozal_VIII>longer wagons would look weird in curves
17:43<Eddi|zuHause2>with 50% longer wagons, 12 wagons would be 9 tiles, plus engine
17:44-!-divo [] has quit [Quit: Quitting]
17:44<Eddi|zuHause2>that is a different issue ;)
17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>but fact is, the passenger wagons are artificially shortened
17:47-!-fjb_ is now known as fjb
17:54<SpComb> <-- feedback?
17:54<SpComb>it's at the point that it "works" now
17:55<ln->IPv4 ought to be enough for anyone
17:55<ln->not really :)
17:56<+glx>like 640KB is enough :)
17:57<SpComb>no working broadcast either
17:57<Gonozal_VIII>memory and ips are not really the same
17:58<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2, ah... and I always remember the people waiting for 32bpp who thought that would solve every problem...
17:58<Gonozal_VIII>current ips could still be enough for lots of years if they were used differently
17:58<SpComb>but eventually, they will run out
17:58<SpComb>you might be able to delay it until, oh, 2020, but it's still going to happen
17:58<Prof_Frink>Eventually, the sun will run out of hydrogen
17:58<+glx>mainly because 1 country reserved more than 50%
17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>or the earth run out of oil...
17:58<Prof_Frink>SpComb: You only need to delay it until 2038
17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>err... wait...
17:59<Prof_Frink>The the unixverse ends.
17:59<Prof_Frink> ^n
17:59<Eddi|zuHause2>the real y2k ;(
18:00<Gonozal_VIII>what will they do then? extend to 64 bit?
18:00<@peter1138>Just change the epoch ;)
18:01<ln->there must be a lot of unused IPv4 addresses... i've been told that a lot of small companies in finland who need maybe ~8 static IPs have been given the whole 65k block of IPs.
18:01<SpComb>time_t is already 64 bits these days, isn't it?
18:01<ln->"a lot" = more than 1
18:01<ln->SpComb: on what platform?
18:01<Fujitsu>SpComb: No.
18:01<SpComb>64-bit linux?
18:01<Fujitsu>SpComb: There are issues with compatibility with file formats, so it's 32-bit.
18:02<SpComb>so time64_t or somesuch?
18:02<Fujitsu>If time_ts weren't in lots of file formats, it'd be easy to change.
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2>SpComb: actually, making it unsigned would give them another 70 years
18:02<Gonozal_VIII>it's signed? why that?
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2>because someone thought that was funny ;)
18:02<ln->Gonozal_VIII: the negative time for the past.
18:03<ln->time_t can express dates from ~1901 .. 2038
18:04<Gonozal_VIII>who needs that?
18:04<Prof_Frink>alan@frinkserv:~$ date --date="Jan 01 2039" --> date: invalid date `Jan 01 2039'
18:04<Prof_Frink>alan@frinkpad:~$ date --date="Jan 01 2039" --> Sat Jan 1 00:00:00 GMT 2039
18:05<ln->Gonozal_VIII: dunno, but it's for example a valid range for expressing anyone's birthday on this channel.
18:06<ln->it's also a valid range for expressing any employee's birthdate in any company.
18:09<ln->which was true even in 1970.
18:11<ln->remains to be seen if time_t is used in 2038 anymore.
18:13<Prof_Frink>Oh, bollocks.
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18:18<ln->sie wissen wir haben kein elefant.
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18:21<Gonozal_VIII>what a strange thing to say
18:21<Gonozal_VIII>incorrect too..
18:25<Eddi|zuHause2>wah, my E94 are getting old...
18:25<Eddi|zuHause2>how dare they
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause2>when's the next livery due? 1987?
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18:28<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: What color do they have?
18:28<Eddi|zuHause2>the E94? grey
18:28<Eddi|zuHause2>the green ones are younger
18:29<Eddi|zuHause2>the grey ones are mainly on the woods route, the green ones on the coal route
18:29<fjb>That is usual. Why do you think they are odd?
18:29<Gonozal_VIII>old, not odd
18:29<fjb>Oh, sorry.
18:30<fjb>I think I need new glasses.
18:30<fjb>Next livery will be cream blue, mid 70s to late 80s.
18:31<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm already 1985
18:31<ln->Gonozal_VIII: you have an elephant?
18:31<fjb>Not all got repainted. E94 looked much better in green livery anyway.
18:33<Gonozal_VIII>you wrote "you/they know we have no elephant"
18:33<ln->yes, that's exactly what i wrote.
18:33<Gonozal_VIII>but it should be keinen not kein
18:33<Eddi|zuHause2>it's "keinen" though
18:34<ln->ah, i suspected that.
18:34<Gonozal_VIII>and it doesn't make any sense
18:34<Eddi|zuHause2>and "Elefanten"
18:34<ln->it's supposed to be singular.
18:34<Eddi|zuHause2>though most germans probably wouldn't recognise this error either
18:35<Gonozal_VIII>is that mandatory?
18:35<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, but it's Akkusativ ;)
18:36<Gonozal_VIII>that doesn't matter, it's plural
18:36<Gonozal_VIII>normal akkusativ singular would be elefant
18:36<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: Most germans won't recognise it? It sounds horribly wrong. But maybe you are right...
18:37<Gonozal_VIII>den elefant
18:37<Gonozal_VIII>that plural thing is some other rule
18:37<fjb>"keinen Elefanten" is singular. "keine Elefanten" is plural.
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>the word elefanten is plural of elefant
18:38<Eddi|zuHause2>you are generalising too much
18:38<Eddi|zuHause2>"mit dem Elefanten/ohne den Elefanten", both singular
18:39<Eddi|zuHause2>google is about 50/50 on that...
18:39<Gonozal_VIII>yes but why is it in plural form?
18:39<Eddi|zuHause2>it is not plural form
18:39<fjb>It is not pliural.
18:39<Gonozal_VIII>elefant is singular :P
18:40<SmatZ>do people in Austria so different than people in Germany?
18:40-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:40<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: You are Austrian, you don't understand that. That is german.
18:40<Eddi|zuHause2>SmatZ: the grammar shouldn't differ that much, but the pronounciation is evil ;)
18:40<fjb>SmatZ: That is because we didn't allow them to be germans.
18:41<Gonozal_VIII>host wos gegn mei aussproch? :O
18:41<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: pronunciation
18:41<Eddi|zuHause2>ln-: that looks horrible...
18:41<ln->Eddi|zuHause2: yeah, don't blame me for the spelling, but that's how it's spelled.
18:41<Eddi|zuHause2>Gonozal_VIII: nix effektives
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18:47<Eddi|zuHause2>it's bad that you cannot repaint engines
18:48<ln->the lines/minute has gone too low, attempting recover.
18:48<ln->dürer hat nie ein autovermietungsfirma.
18:48<Sacro>ich bin vergessen
18:49<Eddi|zuHause2>"nie" always with past or future, doesn't make sense with present
18:49<fjb>eine Autovermietungsfirma.
18:49<fjb>Firma is female.
18:49<Sacro>mein hatte es hatta drei corners...
18:50<Eddi|zuHause2>Sacro: almost ;)
18:50<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: What color do you want your trains?
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: nothing specific right now, but you can't repaint e.g. the grey engines green, or the green engines blue (in case you actually had an E18)
18:51<fjb>E18 would alsways be kind of blue, never green.
18:52<ln->has anyone else watched the Monty Python special that was made in german?
18:52<fjb>ln-: They don't show that in Germany, the Monty Python people don't allow that.
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, i actually don't know what colour the E18 originally had
18:54<fjb>One of the most colorful locomotives was the E41. Blue, green, cream blue, read, another kind of red.
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18:54<ln->fjb: i though it was made for the german audience.
18:54<Eddi|zuHause2>"Die Museumslok E 18 08 im grünen Lieferanstrich"
18:56<fjb>E18 was blue from the beginning because it's top speed was above 120km/h.
18:56<fjb>ln-: No, it was for english audience. The hat fun speaking a strange kind of german.
18:57<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: i thought that was the new livery scheme in the 1950's
18:58<Gonozal_VIII>there are some german words in the funniest joke ever
18:58<fjb>Hm, maybe, but I thought that scheme is older.
18:58<fjb>They also did a german version of the lumberjack song.
18:59<Eddi|zuHause2>"Über die Lieferfarbe der E 18 wurde schon öfters spekuliert. Der Regelanstrich zu dieser Zeit sah einen blaugrauen Lokkasten vor. Allerdings gibt es Hinweise, dass zumindest einige E 18er mit einem dunkel-grün-grauen Lokkasten (wie die E 18 08 heute) geliefert sein sollen."
18:59<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: that's the link ln- gave
18:59<fjb>Maybe it was invented at the same time as the blue color scheme for high speed engines.
19:00<Eddi|zuHause2>"blaugrau" != "blau"
19:01<fjb>blaugrau = stahlblau
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19:02<+michi_cc>for your further enjoyment:
19:03<+michi_cc>and I'm off to sleep
19:05<fjb>Hm, another kind of blue. Never knew that. And the green could be a special color scheme for taking pictures. Like the color scheme for steam engines.
19:05<Gonozal_VIII>oh nice
19:06<Gonozal_VIII>i guess i'll have to update my patchpack again too then
19:06<Gonozal_VIII>hmm not now.. tomorrow
19:07<fjb>Ah, miche fixed the self locking bug.
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19:08<fjb>I'm going to bake a new binary now. :-)
19:09<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: like i said, the blue was an invention of the 1950s
19:09<Eddi|zuHause2>at the same time as the introduction of the E10
19:09<fjb>The earlier blue looked almost the same.
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause2>i have a distinct lack of good diesel engines...
19:20<Eddi|zuHause2>the V160 is too weak for heavy passenger trains, and the BR 232 is too slow for express passenger trains
19:20<Eddi|zuHause2>so i don't have diesel engines for heavy express passenger trains
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm rotating my V200 right now
19:24<fjb>Why do you not electrify that line?
19:25<fjb>Or you could use 2 V160.
19:26<SpComb>hmm... broadcast is difficult
19:26<fjb>That did change a bit in v6.
19:28<SpComb>but I've managed to break IPv4 broadcast as well, even though linux's AF_INET6 sockets should be backwards-compatible with AF_INET
19:28<SpComb>a packet sent from an AF_INET6 socket to an IPv4 broadcast address doesn't seem to arrive at the destination socket, regardless of if that's AF_INET or AF_INET6
19:29<Eddi|zuHause2>2 V160? i have never seen such a train ;)
19:29<Eddi|zuHause2>and i don't like electrifying the whole network
19:30<fjb>Hm, maybe that is an oddity of the Linux networking stack. They had a strange v6 implementation at first. Maybe they didn't correct everything yet.
19:31<fjb>2 V160 were used sometimes.
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19:31<fjb>And a line with heavy express passenger trains is a main line.
19:32<Eddi|zuHause2>well, yes, but with very few towns, practically every line is a main line
19:33<Eddi|zuHause2>it wouldn't be such an issue, if i had engine switching...
19:33<Eddi|zuHause2>a V160 is fine in flat land, but on the hilly routes (that are already electrified) i'd rather use a BR 180 or something
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19:35<fjb>You could implement shunting.
19:35<fjb>You would definitly be my hero then.
19:35<Eddi|zuHause2>now that is a huge project ;)
19:36<fjb>Well worth a hero.
19:37<Eddi|zuHause2>but afaik, some of the ludmillas were built for 140km/h
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19:42<Morloth>nn :)
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19:47<SpComb>hmm... it seems that SO_BROADCAST doesn't get set on the server's UDP socket? How does it receive the LAN server-queries?
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19:56<SpComb>I mean, does the LAN-server-discovery thing work in the stable versions?
19:57*fjb doesn't know.
19:58<SpComb>hmm, it does, in 0.5.2
19:58<fjb>I like the bridges over many things feature:
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20:04<Gonozal_VIII>such a long distance without signals...
20:05<fjb>Why should there be any signals?
20:05<Gonozal_VIII>for lots and lots and lots of trains
20:06<fjb>I'm just making the trains longer.
20:06<Gonozal_VIII>not helping
20:06<fjb>Then your trains are still too short.
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20:07<fjb>One signal every twenty tiles is enough.
20:08<Gonozal_VIII>that means twenty tiles distance between the trains
20:08<Gonozal_VIII>way too much
20:08<Eddi|zuHause2>i have signal distance around the train length
20:09<Eddi|zuHause2>i.e. 7 tiles
20:11<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: How many thousand tonnes do your industries generate?
20:11<Gonozal_VIII>lots of industries use the same line
20:13<fjb>The industries are randomly scattered around the whole map in my games. Using the same line for many industries is prefered, but often not possible.
20:14<Gonozal_VIII>sometimes i have a feeder system with small lines dropping stuff at a hub
20:15<fjb>That is ok when everything has the same destination.
20:16<Gonozal_VIII>even with different destinations
20:16<Gonozal_VIII>just let some more small vehicles pick it up from a second hub
20:16<fjb>That can be really inefficient.
20:17<Gonozal_VIII>maximum profit is with direct point to point connections... but that's boring
20:17<fjb>But I'm also using feeder systems sometimes:
20:18<fjb>Yes, that is boring. But the feeder system have to be in balance. Putting everything on the same line isn't the best idea.
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20:20<Gonozal_VIII>if you have for example 3 power plants that want coal (station A, B and C) and the dropoff hub D, you can use vehicle orders like that: D, A, D, B, D, C
20:21<fjb>Hm, that looks a bit different now. And I need more trucks...
20:21<Gonozal_VIII>balances just fine then
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20:22<fjb>Yes, but that is only useful if the power plants are located in the same area of the map.
20:25<SpComb>right, seems I had some other irrelevant bug that I somehow managed to fix, it works now
20:25<fjb>Self fixing bugs are the best.
20:27<Gonozal_VIII>of course same area of the map, the hub is only for that area :-)
20:28<fjb>Then it is useful.
20:28<fjb>But I usually find the power plants at very different parts of the map. I'm usually playing randomly generated maps.
20:29<Gonozal_VIII>me too
20:29<Gonozal_VIII>but there are a lot of industries, even with very low
20:31<fjb>Yes, but at least the ECS industries tend to die very quick.
20:32<Gonozal_VIII>would be better to start with less and have more appearing instead
20:32<fjb>So there are very fast very few industies.
20:32<fjb>That would be better.
20:33<fjb>Maybe we could implement a setting that influences the random generation of new industries.
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20:34<Gonozal_VIII>would be nice... and also better settings for the number of industries at the beginning
20:36<fjb>Yes. The next Gonozal patch project. :-)
20:37<Eddi|zuHause3><fjb> Yes, but that is only useful if the power plants are located in the same area of the map. <- power plants should be one per city, and required for growth beyond a certain size, similar to water towers in desert
20:37<fjb>Great idea.
20:37<Gonozal_VIII>there's the whole city growth ruleset thingy somewhere
20:38<fjb>But I fear it gets voted against for being to realistic and making the game to hard to play for most people.
20:38<fjb>to = too
20:39<Eddi|zuHause3>why hard? you can play perfectly fine with towns < 2000 people
20:40<fjb>I can. But look into the different forums where people are complaining that TTD is hard to play.
20:40<Eddi|zuHause3>town growth should depend on power and goods supply
20:40<Fujitsu>TTD is hard?
20:40<Fujitsu>I'd welcome changes to make it less trivial.
20:40<fjb>Fujitsu: Don't ask...
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20:41<fjb>I have seen people run out of money in a flat tropic world.
20:42<Eddi|zuHause3>like without food up to 2000, without goods and power up to 5000 or something
20:42<Eddi|zuHause3>and then more or less linearly with amount of power generated
20:42<fjb>With breakdowns disabled ofcourse, else it would have been unplayable for them.
20:43<Gonozal_VIII>advanced tab for the difficulty settings :-)
20:43<fjb>How is the town growth working right now? I have to look at the source.
20:43<Eddi|zuHause3>basically based on the amount of stations serviced
20:44*Fujitsu hasn't poked around that part of the source.
20:44<Eddi|zuHause3>which is stupid, because one big station is counted less than 5 bus stops
20:44<fjb>5 bus stops is a sure way to grow a town out of bounds right now.
20:45<fjb>But what does a town do when it decides to grow?
20:45<Eddi|zuHause3>it walks from the center tile along the roads until it hits a free spot, then tries to build a house or a road there
20:45<fjb>Could a town grf implement the requirement for goods?
20:46<Eddi|zuHause3>i have no idea
20:46<fjb>But it sometimes trashes houses to build bigger ones.
20:47<fjb>What happens if the grf denies every possible building?
20:47<Eddi|zuHause3>i have a station that was once inmidst of houses at the rim of the city, now most houses around that station are gone
20:48<fjb>What kind of station is that? :-)
20:48<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think it has anything to do with the station ;)
20:49<fjb>Does delivery of goods trigger any event? A callback in the town grf?
20:54<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm afraid you'll have to look that up on your own
20:56<fjb>Is DaleStan still awake?
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21:08<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd take that as a no ;)
21:08<Gonozal_VIII>i'd take that as a yes, but won't answer n00b questions right now
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21:16<fjb>I should be sleeping anyway.
21:20<fjb>Good night.
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22:02<UFO64>Anyone know of some good diagrams for some station load balancing?
22:02<Gonozal_VIII>pathfinder does that on its own
22:04<UFO64>Yeah, but my current set up keeps ending up with a secondary bottleneck, and trying to eliminate that seems to end up in jams. I get the feeling I can single this way better, but my atemps seem to be getting worse rather then better
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22:06<Gonozal_VIII>there's also a difference if it's a loading or unloading station, unloading stations work best without any presignals
22:06<UFO64>fair enough
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22:14<UFO64>Here ->
22:15<Gonozal_VIII>bah, jpg, awful quality
22:15<Gonozal_VIII>what kind of signals are that?
22:15<UFO64>Well, picasa felt like being agry with png, and i didn't feel like registering to a more usefull service, so it worked
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22:16<Gonozal_VIII>should work fine with pbs
22:16<UFO64>PBS, I have heard about it, but not read a lot into it
22:16<UFO64>Path Based Signals, right?
22:16<Gonozal_VIII>don't let all lines cross
22:16<Gonozal_VIII>they are all blocked if a train is on one of them
22:17<UFO64>Aye, thus my problem
22:18<UFO64>Isn't the point of load balancing the extrence to a station to spread the trains across the entrences?
22:18<Gonozal_VIII>but not without signals between the lines
22:19<Gonozal_VIII>three lines connected that way have the same capacity as one single line
22:19<UFO64>Aye, I noticed
22:20<UFO64>The only way my current set up has any advantage is if the 5 stations are full and trains are waiting at the presignals to enter
22:20<UFO64>Then they can Que up in those bays, but beyond that, your corrent. Its almost like there is just one
22:21<Gonozal_VIII>you can leave more space between the lines and place signals on the connections
22:29<Tefad> transport tycoon music is up next.
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22:29<Tefad>i rq'd it : D
22:31<Tefad>playing now
22:32<Tefad>needs a bit of practice, but he's a cool guy : D
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22:41<Eddi|zuHause3>UFO64:,%204.%20Jun%201965.png <- an old station of mine with separated entrances
22:42<Gonozal_VIII>one of your escher stations again^^
22:43<Eddi|zuHause3>man, 3 tile stations look much tinier than 10 years ago...
22:45<Eddi|zuHause3>that was the first situation when i said "i could reall use flexible brige ramps here"
22:45<Eddi|zuHause3>i think that was my first openttd game
22:46<Eddi|zuHause3>that was long before i ever came here
22:46<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't remember which version it was, though
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22:48<Eddi|zuHause3>i wouldn't ever build like that anymore
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 20 00:00:49 2008