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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-03-05

---Logopened Wed Mar 05 00:00:52 2008
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04:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12341 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r11224) [FS#1827]: GRM buffer for cargos was incorrect size.
04:40<@peter1138>@openttd bugs
04:40<@DorpsGek>peter1138: Open Bugs: 28; Not assigned: 22; Closed this week: 16; Opened this week: 15
04:40<SpComb>OpenTTD DRM!
04:40<@peter1138>DRM in open source? hehehe
04:58<SpComb>hmm, I was somehow under the vauge impression that PBS had gotten into trunk, but I appear to be delusional
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05:14<@peter1138>And also delusional that ‘gotten’ is a word in English...
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06:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belugas * r12342 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp:
06:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix(r12340): In order to avoid confusion, SIGN should be used for signs and SIGNAL for signals :)
06:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Always check your terms with your nearest british ;)
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07:55<fjb>Where did follow_track.cpp go? I don't find it in the comit messages.
07:55<SmatZ>it went away
07:55<SmatZ>it was unused
07:57<fjb>Ah, thank you.
07:57<fjb>Now I have to find out what the yapp patch does to that file.
08:02<@peter1138>I don't think YAPP used it.
08:03<@peter1138>It fixed it, but it wasn't needed anyway. Or something.
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08:10<fjb>Oh, ok. Then I will just skip that part of the patch.
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08:16<fjb>Is the vehicle pool patch that patch that was talked about to go into trunk after the feature freeze?
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08:28<fjb>Moin frosch123
08:28<frosch123>quak fjb
08:29<fjb>I won't kiss you. :-P
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08:34*Sacro kisses fjb
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08:38<yorick>lets see, what shall I patch into my custom beta5?
08:38<yorick>(with networking compat)
08:39<yorick>smallmap zoom
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08:42<fjb>I have often seen people desync after using copy-paste. And as far as I know that functionality is disabled in a network game now.
08:44<yorick>nope :)
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08:45<fjb>I would ban everybody who uses the copy-paste patch from my server.
08:45<yorick>you know
08:45<yorick>it can be disabled serverside ;)
08:46<yorick>if you ask frostregen, he can provide you the pastespeed patch
08:46<yorick>if the pastespeed patch value is set to 255, pasting is disabled
08:46<SmatZ>I wonder how the "pastespeed" patch works, maybe it just limits the frequency of accepted commands
08:46<yorick>it is a patch option
08:46<fjb>But how works it technically?
08:46<SmatZ>it has to be compatible with clean clients
08:47<yorick>it is
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08:47<SmatZ>and clients with c&p do not know the pastespeed setting of the server - or do they?
08:47<yorick>I'll check
08:48<@peter1138>Clients: 7 / 11 (7 / 6 companies; 1 / 11 spectators)
08:48<@peter1138>Hmm, 7 out of 6 companies? :o
08:48<SmatZ>why not :P
08:48<yorick>they could have been lowered
08:48<+glx>peter1138: 2 joins at the same time?
08:48<fjb>Limiting the frequency of accepted commands will be very bad in case of a network jam. You never know in which order or speed the ip packets reach their destination.
08:49<SmatZ>that's true
08:49<SmatZ>but how else could it work?
08:49<SmatZ>I don't know
08:50<fjb>There is no other way how it could work. The copy paste patch emulates a very fast clicking person.
08:50<fjb>So that is a very bad countermeasure against a cheat.
08:51<fjb>peter1138: One is a virtual company, located at the Bahamas.
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08:51<yorick>ask frostregen
08:53<fjb>Banning is still the prefered solution as you don't have to patch the server.
08:54<yorick>it should be allowed for me to do whatever I want on my client ^^
08:54<yorick>the server should decide if what I do is good or not
08:55<fjb>And it should be allowed for the admin to do what ever he things is needed protecting the game.
08:55<yorick>I won't play on your server anyway ^^
08:56<fjb>And I didn't see a game yet where the copy paste patch wasn't kind of abused.
08:58<@peter1138> < looks strange in the detail window :o
08:58<+glx>nothing we can do about it I think
08:59<fjb>A train going backward?
08:59<@peter1138>Not really, except maybe ignore the bit when showing stuff like that.
09:00<fjb>Isn't it possivble to show the details independent from the direction the train is traveling?
09:00<yorick> is indeed a MP patch setting
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09:07<+glx>peter1138: hmm doesn't happen for all combinations
09:08<@peter1138>Well it just shows whatever the GRF has told it to show.
09:08<fjb>Moin LordAzamath
09:08<+glx>sometimes only the engine "rotates"
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09:11<yorick>the better graphs patch hasn't been updated recently?
09:13<LordAzamath>!seen miham*
09:13<LordAzamath>@seen miham*
09:13<@DorpsGek>LordAzamath: miham* could be MiHaMeK (4 weeks, 6 days, 19 hours, 26 minutes, and 17 seconds ago) or MiHaMiX (7 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 51 minutes, and 48 seconds ago)
09:14<yorick>try on openttd.wt2
09:15<LordAzamath> :O
09:15<LordAzamath>yorick... well he is online there...
09:17<LordAzamath>was that a scream or laughing?
09:19*fjb knows why he doesn't use Microssoft Software it ever avoidable.
09:20*keyweed smiles.
09:25<fjb>Gonozal should update his patch pack. :-)
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09:42<yorick>does anyone have an updated version of the better graphs patch?
09:43<LordAzamath>peter1138, you here?
09:44<fjb>yorick: I fear you have to update that patch.
09:44<yorick>total nightmare
09:44*yorick tried
09:45<yorick>but it tries to remove things on line 500 of openttd.h
09:45<LordAzamath>I just tried that if I add that missing tag to the wagon articles ( picture: ), then it won't show it anywhere... SO I can define the tags before and then you change the template and everything is automatically correct..
09:46<LordAzamath>so I'll give the 27 articles those tags and you update template? good :)
09:53<fjb>yorick: Look what it tries to remove and remove that line by hand.
09:53<yorick>fjb: there is the problem, there is no line 512
09:53<yorick>it ends around 419
09:54<fjb>But the diff tells you the contend of that line. You have to find that content anywhere.
09:54<yorick>you seem to know, goodluck!
09:58<fjb>Maybe that line was relocated to another file.
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09:59<fjb>FollowTrack_t was completely removed?
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10:06<fjb>I think I have to reintroduce it to get the yapp patch working.
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10:13<fjb>I should set up my own repository.
10:15<hylje>or go decentralized all the way
10:16<LordAzamath>peter1138, you here:P?
10:17<LordAzamath>I've finished I hope..
10:17<LordAzamath>if any typos came in, we'll see it :P
10:18<fjb>hylje: No, that is not an option.
10:20<fjb>I don't see the advantage of decentralisation.
10:21<hylje>several repositories, which can share changesets trivially
10:24<fjb>And why should I have several repositories when I can have several branches in one repository?
10:24<Eddi|zuHause2>because you can't have branches in THE repository
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10:25<fjb>But I can have a replication of that repository and branch as will in my own replecated repository.
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10:27<+glx><fjb> I think I have to reintroduce it to get the yapp patch working. <-- why?
10:27<SmatZ>fjb: are you a new YAPP developer?
10:28<fjb>yapp uses FollowTrack_t
10:28<fjb>No, I'm just porting the patch to the actual source.
10:28<+glx>YAPP can use FollowTrack()
10:29<fjb>Ok, I will look at that
10:29<SmatZ>michi_cc isn't developing / updating YAPP anymore?
10:29<SmatZ>he said you to update it :)
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11:19<fjb>SmatZ: He is still developing it. But I want to patch the actual OpenTTD.
11:19<@peter1138>The *actual* OpenTTD?
11:20<@peter1138>Wasn't it already a patch of the, er, 'actual' OpenTTD?
11:20<fjb>Ok, I meant latest trunk.
11:20<fjb>My English is not perfect.
11:21<@peter1138>You want to update. Enjoy ;)
11:22<fjb>I'm enjoying it.
11:22<fjb>Only think that bogs me is FollowTrack_t.
11:27<LordAzamath>peter1138... do you ignore me? :P ^^
11:27<LordAzamath>yeah right.. :P
11:28<LordAzamath>you just don't have time?
11:28<@Belugas>time or... interest somewhere else ? ;)
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11:29<LordAzamath>heh.. I have irritated him for two days now..
11:30<LordAzamath>maybe me leaving him alone would be enough motivation to get interested :P
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11:39<LordAzamath>hello Gonozal_VIII
11:39<LordAzamath>yorick is offline so you won't be invited to #? :P
11:41<LordAzamath>by him :P
11:41<fjb>Hi Gonozal_VIII, you dindn't do your homework.
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11:50<fjb>Yes. Your patch pack doesn't apply to the latest trunk.
11:50<Gonozal_VIII>i never said that it does :P
11:50<dih>i need to test if pasting under os x works or not ^^
11:51<dih>you never said anything to pasting under os x
11:51<Gonozal_VIII>it applies to 12180
11:51<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: You adopted it, now you have to take care of it.
11:52<dih>_have to_ ?
11:52<Gonozal_VIII>i wanted to wait for a new yapp version to come out before i update again... because michi said it will be today (a week ago or something)
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11:53<LordAzamath>nice address...
11:54<LordAzamath>hello dihedral
11:55<Gonozal_VIII>i have most of the patches updated to 12263, some to 12332... but nothing merged yet
11:55<@peter1138>Update to current trunk :D
11:55<LordAzamath>gonozal updates and peter makes another commit....
11:55<Gonozal_VIII>release 0.6.0 :P
11:56<Ammler>Gonozal_VIII: yould you release a patchpack without pass dest
11:57<Gonozal_VIII>you can deactivate it
11:57<Ammler>hmm, yes :-)
11:57<Ammler>need to try that
11:58<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't include it at first because of the problems the patch causes but there was a high demand
11:58<fjb>Does it cause desyncs?
11:58<Eddi|zuHause2>most certainly
11:59<Gonozal_VIII>somebody wrote that... i don't know for sure
11:59<Gonozal_VIII>but my game crashed once with it
12:00<Gonozal_VIII>with some clicking around in the station window
12:00<Gonozal_VIII>but i couldn't reproduce it, so no idea...
12:01<Eddi|zuHause2>the only thing i noticed is having a station window open causes heavy load
12:02<Eddi|zuHause2>and the amount of passengers generated does not match my scale ;)
12:02<Gonozal_VIII>the patch is not really finished
12:02<Gonozal_VIII>well... passenger numbers can be adjusted
12:04<fjb>What is your scale? The thousands of passengers waiting at a bus stop are also a bit out of scale.
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12:05<Gonozal_VIII>i didn't play enough to be sure but in my testgames the number of passengers seemed to be just right
12:07<fjb>The only thing that doesn't work is to put just one station at the center of a town and then filling hundreds of trains that way.
12:09<fjb>But that is the style that many are playing.
12:09<Ammler>really? How ugly.
12:10<fjb>Really ugly. Look at most screen shots or look at multiuser games.
12:13<fjb>Look at the scrren shots that many people show at the diffenred TTD forums when they have questions or problems. I often see people using station walking or placing only one station per town alsways under the town name.
12:14<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't that cut the town growth if you build directly under the name?
12:14<fjb>Don't know, I never tried it.
12:14<Slowpoke>I don't think so
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12:17<Slowpoke>do I need an additional grf so that those zepelins or blimps or however they're called in englich work correctly? they just stop anywhere on my airports and dont move anymore
12:17<Gonozal_VIII>they use helipads
12:17<Ammler>Slowpoke: did you change the set on a running game?
12:18<Ammler>maybe you overwrote a plane from previous set
12:18<fjb>Zeppelins and blimps are very different. But that should not matter in your case. Which set are you using?
12:18<Slowpoke>hm I did, then deactivated again and activated it again not in a running game...
12:18<Slowpoke>still no difference
12:19<Gonozal_VIII>what type of airport?
12:19<Slowpoke>those lagre heliports and smal airports
12:19<fjb>They should work on any airport.
12:19<Gonozal_VIII>and does it have correct orders..
12:20<Gonozal_VIII>and where's the screenshot? :P
12:20<Slowpoke>yes it does... and even if I change them they don't move... not even into a hangar
12:21<Gonozal_VIII>hmmmm do you have a vehicle stopped halfway inside the hangar?
12:21<fjb>Is there a stopped vehicleon that airport?
12:24<Slowpoke>they just aren't moving, there is nothing in the way... I tested with only one at a similar heliport and it didn't work either...
12:24<Gonozal_VIII>that looks really strange^^
12:25<Gonozal_VIII>..and german... looks strange and german
12:25<Eddi|zuHause2>how would you know what german looks like :p
12:26<Gonozal_VIII>because it looks like austrian but more complicated :P
12:26<Eddi|zuHause2>Slowpoke: have you tried in a new game?
12:27<Slowpoke>yeah, ut only on a smal airport... Ill try again
12:27<Gonozal_VIII>and the vehicle window you have opened there is the wrong one, that one can
12:27<Gonozal_VIII>'t move anyways
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12:32<Slowpoke>howeveeer, I stared a new game and same thing, now on a intercontinental airport
12:35<fjb>What grfs do you have loaded in which sequence?
12:39<Slowpoke>newships, newstations, ttrsv3.02a, generic tramset and last the aviator-set
12:40<fjb>And which version of OpenTTD?
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12:43<@peter1138>Problem with plane speed patch, it seems.
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12:43<fjb>Oh the speeeds drops to 0?
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12:47<Slowpoke_>sorry, connection failed...
12:47<Slowpoke_>speed doesn't drop to 0
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12:51<Slowpoke_>I'll have to do something else now, I'll update openttd tomorrow and see what happens. thanks for your help anyway :)
12:51<@peter1138>Well it's not fixed yet, heh.
12:51<fjb>What do I have to do to add a file to the source? Just add it to source.list?
12:52<SmatZ>fjb: and run projects/generate
12:52<SmatZ>and svn add
12:52<SmatZ>and svn keywords...
12:52<SmatZ>hmm not needed
12:52<SmatZ>only svn add
12:52<@Belugas>and svn commit
12:52<fjb>I think I don't need to tell svn about it.
12:53<SmatZ>you do if you want to do svn diff
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12:54<fjb>I even didn't need projects/generate, I think.
12:54<@peter1138>That's only for MSVC.
12:55<fjb>I found that out after running the script. But it didn't harm anything.
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12:57<SmatZ>it helps MSVC users to later modify your patch
12:57-!-SmatZ [] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
12:58<fjb>The patch will stay at home. :-) It is just the yapp patch.
12:59-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has joined #openttd
13:00<fjb>Hello Wolf01
13:01-!-UnderBuilder [~chatzilla@] has joined #openttd
13:04-!-Ammler [] has joined #openttd
13:15<fjb>I'm one error further. :-)
13:18-!-Purno [] has joined #openttd
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13:24<fjb>I need a three way diff.
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13:27-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
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13:28<yorick>a patch that allows custom server actions from console isn't so hard :0
13:30-!-a1270 [] has joined #openttd
13:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12343 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r12293): Slow helicopters never got the 'chance' to finish the landing routine.
13:35-!-NukeBuster [] has left #openttd []
13:38<yorick>and having "say" during connecting could be possible too
13:39*yorick sees soo much
13:39-!-NukeBuster [] has joined #openttd
13:44-!-peter1138 [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
13:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r12344 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Codechange: Check uint64 bitsize on compiletime too.
13:52-!-lolman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:53-!-Gonozal_VIII [Gonozal_VI@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:53<yorick>how big would spamming risks be if I let unknown clients chat?
13:56-!-Ammler [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:59<yorick>ok, so it's not like *start* *enlargeyourpenisnow* *buyxtc* *donatemoneyforkittensinbottles* *spreadthismessage* *newcomputervirusdiscovered*?
14:00-!-Ammler [] has joined #openttd
14:00-!-peter1138 [~petern@] has joined #openttd
14:00-!-mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
14:00*yorick repeats it for missing users:
14:00<yorick>[19:53] <yorick> how big would spamming risks be if I let unknown clients chat?
14:00<yorick>[19:56] *** Ammler quit (Ping timeout: 480 seconds)
14:00<yorick>[19:59] <yorick> ok, so it's not like *start* *enlargeyourpenisnow* *buyxtc* *donatemoneyforkittensinbottles* *spreadthismessage* *newcomputervirusdiscovered*?
14:03<+glx>@kick yorick for spamming :)
14:03-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [for spamming :)]
14:03-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
14:03<yorick>I expected that for some reason
14:10-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
14:12<yorick>my mouse just got broken
14:13<yorick>working again :)
14:13*yorick spoke to it using a hamer
14:16<yorick>I assume some server admins might like the custom actions
14:16<yorick>maybe the coop guys
14:17-!-Draakon [] has joined #openttd
14:17<@Belugas>yorick, i strongly suggest you submit your patch on forums and just let us quietly sleep
14:17*Belugas hates meaningless monologues
14:17<yorick>you don't have to read :p
14:17*peter1138 would just suggest shutting up...
14:18<@peter1138>Or getting me a beer.
14:18<Draakon>so whats cooking here?
14:18*yorick gives peter1138 an imaginary beer
14:18*Belugas picks it up before it reaches peter's hand
14:19*Draakon snaps it from you
14:19<yorick>fighting for an imaginare beer eh?
14:20-!-peter1138 [~petern@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:20-!-Gonozal_VIII [Gonozal_VI@] has joined #openttd
14:23<Gonozal_VIII>i can't sleep right because i'm dreaming too much :-/
14:23<Draakon>I NEED MORE FEATURES! xD
14:23<yorick>I'm uploading a patch to flyspray
14:23<Gonozal_VIII>and i can't understand the dreams because they are in japanese without subtitles :-/
14:24<yorick>so calm down ;)
14:24<Draakon>lol gonozal
14:24<Draakon>yorick: what patch?
14:24<yorick>custom networking actions
14:24<Draakon>what it does?
14:24<yorick>*** Server is shutting down in this minute...
14:24<yorick>do "Server is shutting down in this minute..."
14:24<Draakon>that kind of text?
14:25<Draakon>useless for me
14:25-!-lolman [] has joined #openttd
14:25<Draakon>because i cant host :(
14:27<yorick>devs, you can sleep after you've read or included(or both) fs1829
14:27-!-yorick is now known as Yorick|AFK
14:32*Belugas does not feel the need to do so
14:32<Draakon>do what?
14:33-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
14:35-!-peter1138 [~petern@] has joined #openttd
14:35-!-mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
14:35-!-Draakon [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox]]
14:37*|Jeroen| doesn't feel like doing anything
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14:43-!-Yorick|AFK is now known as Yorick
14:46<fjb>src/rail_cmd.cpp:2171: error: invalid conversion from `int' to `TrackdirBits'
14:46<fjb>I must have done something wrong.
14:47<fjb>if ((b & 0x8) == 0) red_signals |= (TRACKDIR_BIT_LEFT_N | TRACKDIR_BIT_X_NE | TRACKDIR_BIT_Y_SE | TRACKDIR_BIT_UPPER_E) << 16;
14:48-!-Gonozal_VIII [Gonozal_VI@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:48<Yorick>probably <<16
14:48<Yorick>what should that stand for?
14:48<fjb>red_signals is of type TrackdirBits
14:49<fjb>It'a a left shift by 16 bits.
14:49-!-peter1138 [~petern@] has quit [Quit: bwaaahahaha, te eeeh eeehee boingk!]
14:50<fjb>But what size is TrackdirBits?
14:50-!-peter1138 [] has joined #openttd
14:50-!-mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
14:54<fjb>Looks like TrackdirBits is only 16 bit wide.
14:56<ln>what would you say if...
14:58-!-ln is now known as Bjarni
14:59<fjb>You are not Bjarni, I didn't see you kick people.
14:59*Bjarni kicks fjb []
14:59<fjb>You are not Bjarni
15:00<Bjarni>more Bjarni than Bjarni himself at the moment
15:01-!-MDGrein [] has quit []
15:02<Yorick>ln | nl?
15:02<ln->wtf are you talking about?
15:02-!-Ammler [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:02<Yorick>I want to know if it is mirrored
15:02<ln->of course not.
15:02-!-Ammler [] has joined #openttd
15:03<fjb>ln- is from Finland.
15:03<Bjarni>I want Sacro
15:03-!-Bjarni is now known as ln
15:03<ln->@seen Bjarni
15:03<@DorpsGek>ln-: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 8 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I want Sacro
15:03<ln->great success \o/
15:05<LordAzamath>or should I say.. Bjarni! ?
15:05<ln->Bjarni is not here!
15:05<LordAzamath>then who?
15:06*LordAzamath reads upper things..
15:06<LordAzamath>[21:58] *** ln changed nick to Bjarni
15:07-!-LordAzamath [~LAlord]] has quit [Quit: zzzzzz...]
15:07<@peter1138>I can't play without YAPP any more :(
15:08<fjb>You ahve to update the patch... :-)
15:08-!-Noldo [] has joined #openttd
15:09*fjb votes for yapp in the patch after feature freeze. Everything else would be unhealthy.
15:10<fjb>yapp in trunk
15:10*fjb is a bit confused after counting to many bits.
15:10*Belugas votes for a lot more stuff after freeze...
15:11*Yorick edited his openttd quit message
15:11<Yorick>***Yorick has left the game(bye!)
15:11*fjb is curious what Belugas has on his list.
15:13<@Belugas>WE have a lot on lists
15:13*fjb knows. peter1138 seams to have an almost ready patch for everything.
15:14<ln->* seems
15:14*fjb will leans proper English in this or his next life one day.
15:15*fjb can't type anymore.
15:15*fjb hates C even more.
15:15<Noldo>those bloody compilers are not reading your comments?
15:16<fjb>They are annoying me.
15:17<Noldo>I wonder what I had on my openttd ToTinkerWith list
15:18-!-UnderBuilder [~chatzilla@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:18<@peter1138>Hmm, I've got 800MB free... I had 2GB free the other day...
15:18<fjb>What did you do?
15:20<Yorick>its fun to see the #openttdcoop and #openttd conversation merged :)
15:20<Yorick>Hmm, I've got 800MB free... I had 2GB free the other day... <--> But the ML<>SL hookups are there
15:21<fjb>Yorick: Don't confuse their highly optimized conversations.
15:21<fjb>One more error resolved. Now for the next one.
15:22-!-Deathmaker [] has joined #openttd
15:22<@Belugas>how to set an ignore again?
15:22<@Belugas>ho... good... found it
15:22<Yorick>you like ignoring me?
15:26<fjb>How does ./objs/lang/table/strings.h get generated?
15:27<Wolf01>mmmh, 0.6might-be-last-rc, now everybody is waiting for the stable to come and the big river of features on the nightlies
15:27<@peter1138>fjb, strgen creates it.
15:28<Wolf01>I'm writing an how to in Italian in my forum, where can I link it?
15:29<fjb>Is a new entry in ./src/lang/english.txt enough to make it appear in ./objs/lang/table/strings.h?
15:29<Wolf01>*how to for TTD
15:29<@peter1138>fjb, yes.
15:30-!-ben_goodger_ [] has joined #openttd
15:30<fjb>Why didn't it appear in ./objs/lang/table/strings.h then? I have to investigate...
15:31-!-remaxim [~remaxim@] has joined #openttd
15:31<remaxim>ping belugas
15:32-!-Yorick [] has quit [Quit: pong Yorick]
15:34-!-ben_goodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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15:36<fjb>One whitespace was that problem.
15:39<@Belugas>pong remaxim
15:39-!-NukeBuster [] has joined #openttd
15:41<fjb>Now I'm having r12342 with YAPP, passenger destinations and engine pools.
15:43<fjb>Now for the update to r12344.
15:50-!-thgerg1 [] has joined #openttd
15:52-!-Gonozal_VIII [Gonozal_VI@] has joined #openttd
15:54<Gonozal_VIII>wow, 12344
15:55-!-thgergo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:55<fjb>ne is still missing. :-)
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16:00<Gonozal_VIII>what new good patches are there that i should include in my patchpack?
16:01-!-remaxim [~remaxim@] has left #openttd []
16:01<@peter1138>You stole my line.
16:01<fjb>Just keep the current up to date. That will keep you from getting bored.
16:02*Belugas is discovering with pleasure 30 Ghosts IV
16:02<@peter1138>Ah, you got it all now :D
16:03-!-skidd13 [] has joined #openttd
16:04<@Belugas>yup :D
16:04<@Belugas>and... hooooo.... and haaaaaaaa....
16:04<@Belugas>and merci ;)
16:06<Gonozal_VIII>what's that airdrag.diff thingy?
16:13<@Belugas>the effect of air's dragg on a vehicle, slowing it down, maybe?
16:14<Gonozal_VIII>yes, i read the diff, seems to be so... but i thought asking here might cause an explanation by peter^^
16:19<@peter1138>the effect of air's dragg on a vehicle, slowing it down
16:20<Gonozal_VIII>seems to depend only on the engine topspeed
16:21<@Belugas>you're right... it should also be applied to the engine speed once stopped :D
16:21<Gonozal_VIII>the sides and roof of the train have airdrag too :-)
16:21-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:21<Gonozal_VIII>long train, more drag
16:21<@Belugas>somehow, i doubt it has much impact
16:21<Gonozal_VIII>but it has
16:21<@Belugas>iirc, the train makes some kind of a tunnel
16:22<@Belugas>and on the other hand...
16:22<@Belugas>it's a realistic stuff
16:22<@Belugas>not so realistic either :S
16:24<Eddi|zuHause2>air drag is really unimportant for speeds <100km/h
16:25<Eddi|zuHause2>which is why the streamlining of steam engines often got removed... the saving in fuel did not match up with the more difficult maintenance
16:26-!-NukeBuster [] has quit [Quit: using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12]
16:26<Vikthor>On the other hand it is essential for HST
16:27-!-NukeBuster [] has joined #openttd
16:27<Gonozal_VIII>like the vacuum maglev that melts away if the tube breaks :-)
16:28<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, air drag is cubic in terms of speed, so double speed means 8 times air drag
16:33<Gonozal_VIII>airdrag is already more than the rest at 100 km/h there
16:38<Eddi|zuHause2>there are many facts missing about that picture...
16:38<Eddi|zuHause2>but it does support my point, it is unimportant with speeds < 100km/h
16:38<Gonozal_VIII>i know that it is
16:38<Gonozal_VIII>but modern trains are faster than that
16:40<Gonozal_VIII>mass acceleration
16:40<valhalla1w>ah right
16:40<valhalla1w>strange graph then :D
16:40<Gonozal_VIII>with the right brakes, you should be able to get most of that back
16:40-!-Deathmaker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:40<valhalla1w>I mean, air resisitance is a force and the energy is dependent on the distance travelled
16:40<Eddi|zuHause2>i also don't know what that means...
16:40<valhalla1w>while mass accelleration isnt dependent on the distance
16:41-!-valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
16:41<valhallasw>but I guess this is averaged on a large number of rides?
16:41<Gonozal_VIII>i think that's statistical data for average use
16:43<Gonozal_VIII>i asked a friend of mine that studied physics about the airdrag and he gave me that link
16:44<Gonozal_VIII>according to him, airdrag over the lenght of the train is only bad if there's for example a container wagon after a flatbed...
16:45-!-Ammller [] has joined #openttd
16:45<Eddi|zuHause2>ever heard of the term "wind shadow"?
16:45<Eddi|zuHause2>it's why ducks always fly in a V formation
16:45<Gonozal_VIII>there are turbulences
16:46<Gonozal_VIII>he also wrote that small turbulences along the sides of the train are good because they prevent big ones
16:46<@peter1138>Our 'realistic' acceleration routine sucks.
16:46<Eddi|zuHause2>turbulences only have an effect if you try to stay in course
16:47<Eddi|zuHause2>which is only relevant for planes
16:47<Gonozal_VIII>they drag a lot of air along
16:47*Belugas prepares Zirkos real acceleration "fine tuning" for commit ;)
16:48<SpComb>hooking up all the coal mines on a 512x512 map to a given power station isn't that trivial
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>is that the one that removes max speed?
16:48<SpComb>takes a fair few hours
16:48<valhallasw>Gonozal_VIII: yes, that sounds reasonable.
16:48<valhallasw>trains are fairly wind-resistance-efficient anyway
16:48-!-Ammler [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:49<valhallasw>as they are long objects without too big parts inbetween (except when coupling a container car to a flatbed of course)
16:49<SpComb>although OpenTTD's lack of PBS really hurts
16:49<Gonozal_VIII>use yapp
16:50-!-Morloth [] has joined #openttd
16:51-!-skidd13 [] has left #openttd [Ping timeout: Hmm ping sucks :D]
16:52<@Belugas>and/or wait for it to eventually (and mostly surely) be in trunk
16:52<Gonozal_VIII>then hurry up with 0.6.0 release :P
16:52<SpComb>although I gather YAPP works quite differently from TTDPatch's PBS
16:52-!-Ammlller [] has joined #openttd
16:53<@Belugas>well... it is still a PBS
16:53<@Belugas>and it is my time to leave home
16:53<@Belugas>good night
16:53<Gonozal_VIII>yapp is actually very easy to understand... it's only difficult because you can't build signals like you're used to
16:53<Eddi|zuHause2>leave _to_ home?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>YAPP signals are much more natural
16:54-!-Ammller [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:54-!-Jezral is now known as TinoDidriksen
16:55<Gonozal_VIII>but if you place them like you used to place the normal signals, you get deadlocks everywhere
17:01<globester>yes i've noticed :(
17:01<globester>still trying to figure them out
17:02<Eddi|zuHause2>it's so easy...
17:02<Eddi|zuHause2>wherever you would normally put an exit signal, you place no signal at all
17:03<@peter1138>Cunninger than a cunning thing on national cunning day!
17:03<globester>so just one before the junction nothing behind?
17:04<@peter1138>ln-, useful crossing... :o
17:04<globester>what's that entry pbs signal for then?
17:04<@peter1138>It's not.
17:04<@peter1138>It's a one-way PBS signal.
17:04-!-SmatZ [] has joined #openttd
17:04<Gonozal_VIII>nice openttd screenshot ln
17:05<ln->peter1138: well it's for getting to the platform in the middle.
17:05<Eddi|zuHause2>globester: it forbids the train to go backwards through that signal (like normal one-way signals)
17:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12345 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1828](r12296): don't try to restore backupped timetable when timetabling is disabled
17:05<Gonozal_VIII>bars for people that want to reach a platform? never seen that in rl
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>yay 12345!!!!!
17:06<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd also mention that... it doesn't look realistic
17:06<SpComb>no, it's for the cars
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>cars :S
17:06<Gonozal_VIII>why would cars go there?
17:07<@peter1138>To cause train crashes.
17:08<Gonozal_VIII>a car wouldn't even fit between the rails and the crossing bar^^
17:09-!-TinoDidriksen [] has quit [Quit:]
17:13<Gonozal_VIII>everybody go watch dokuro-chan
17:14<Eddi|zuHause2>i just finished watching stargate
17:15<Gonozal_VIII>new episode sga :O
17:15<Gonozal_VIII>hmm no... friday
17:16*fjb finished r12344 with YAPP, passsenger destinations and vehicle pools. And it is working. At least at the first glance.
17:16<Gonozal_VIII>hmm yay?^^
17:17<SmatZ>fjb: go for 12345!
17:17<Gonozal_VIII>don't forget to change the savegame version to 91
17:18<fjb>No, not today. r12345 sounds cool, but is not that important to me.
17:19<+glx>fjb: just svn up, it won't conflict
17:19<fjb>glx: Ok, so I'm not finished yet.
17:20<Gonozal_VIII>because 12345 is just a fake revision that glx did because he wanted to have that number
17:20<+glx>12345 is just a 2 lines change in order_cmd
17:20<+glx>but it fixes a bug :)
17:21*SmatZ could commit 1 whitespace change
17:21-!-Morloth is now known as Morloth|Pack
17:21<ln->Morloth|Pack: wtf?
17:21<SmatZ>to be "the 12345 hero"
17:21<ln->gimme ops
17:21<Morloth|Pack>ln-: I'm packing :)
17:21<Gonozal_VIII>maybe you planned that in advance and planted that bug there :P
17:21<SmatZ>ln-: no way!
17:21<Morloth|Pack>ln-: I'm going to Dublin for a couple of days :)
17:21<ln->Morloth|Pack: i don't want to know. no one wants to know.
17:21<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: was not intended
17:21<ln->Morloth|Pack: away nicks are bad.
17:22<Morloth|Pack>ln-: you've got a disturbed mindset ;)
17:22<Gonozal_VIII>or you had the fix ready for weeks, just waiting for somebody to commit 12344^^
17:22<+glx>so no work on noai?
17:23<Gonozal_VIII>do thay have internet in that dublin place?
17:23<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: I don't like fixing my bugs
17:23<fjb>Ok, compiling r12345. :-)
17:23<+glx>I try to add bug free code
17:24<Gonozal_VIII>there is no such thing as bug free code
17:24<+glx>it was not a fatal one, just annoying
17:24-!-a1270 [] has quit [Quit: The ending changes tone & is actually quite sad - but it involves a scene of necrophilia, so that's just another plus in my book.....]
17:24<Prof_Frink>Oh, adding bug free code is easy
17:24<Prof_Frink>Just make sure it starts with /* and ends with */
17:25<fjb>That will be a bug in Pascal.
17:25<+glx>#if 0 ... #endif is safer
17:25<SmatZ>you can make uncompilable code even when it starts with /* and ends with */
17:26-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:28<fjb> /* ... /* ... */ ... */ thinks like that can lead to errors.
17:28-!-divo [] has quit [Quit: Quitting]
17:29<SmatZ>:) though you will receive compiler warnings
17:30-!-Osai [] has joined #openttd
17:31<fjb>Depends on how advanced the compiler is. The VAX C compiler was very advanced.
17:33-!-a1270 [] has joined #openttd
17:35<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Where did you get the vehicle pool patch?
17:37-!-Chrill [] has joined #openttd
17:37<fjb>Oh. I think I found kind of a bug. A grf reising the base cost raises it for every grf, even if that is in its own pool.
17:38<+glx>fjb: happens without this patch too
17:38-!-planetmaker [~chatzilla@] has quit [Quit: bye!]
17:38<fjb>Yes, I know, but I thought the pools should decouple the grfs.
17:39<+glx>base cost is global
17:39<SmatZ>what GRF should it affect if not all?
17:39*SmatZ thinks it is correct behaviour
17:39*SmatZ shame...
17:40-!-Zothar [] has joined #openttd
17:40<fjb>But one GRF toying with the base cost can make the pools mostly useless.
17:41<Gonozal_VIII>then tell the grf authors not to toy with the base costs
17:41<fjb>Then they have trouble to make expensive vehicles. George hat that problem with LV4.
17:43<Eddi|zuHause2>then make the range bigger instead
17:43-!-jez [] has joined #openttd
17:43-!-jez is now known as jez9999
17:43<jez9999>I'm having trouble building OpenTTD NoAI
17:43<fjb>That would break the nfo specification.
17:43<+glx>jez9999: what kind of troubles?
17:43<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it would extend the NFO specification
17:43<Gonozal_VIII>change the nfo specification :-)
17:43<SmatZ>hello jez9999
17:44<SmatZ>jez9999: what revision is the first you have problems with?
17:44<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: I don't think that could be easily done in TTDP. But we should ask Dale Stan.
17:45<jez9999>hmm, first im gonna read
17:45<Chrill> - Comments?
17:45<jez9999>OK, i've read that
17:45<jez9999>i dont have any of those editions, i have VS8.0 :-)
17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: for example there is a standard introduction date, and then there is a long introduction date when the range got extended
17:45<+glx>if you can build openttd, you can build noai
17:46<SmatZ>Chrill: what king of comments would you like? Is it North America?
17:47<jez9999>doesnt openTTD use SDL?
17:47<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: But that would make TTDP and OpenTTD incompatible. And TTDP is the reference for GRFs.
17:47<+glx>not required for windows
17:47<Chrill>It's a random map. More like, suggestions for improvements, or if it's looking good so far, SmatZ
17:47<jez9999>isnt SDL much more lightweight than the whole directX sdk?
17:47<jez9999>i'd rather use it :-)
17:47<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: no, the grf spec is the reference for grfs
17:48<+glx>jez9999: sdl is just a wrapper over GDI or DX
17:48<fjb>Eddi|zuHause2: But TTDP is the reference implementation. At least nobody will use it if it doesn't work in TTDP.
17:49<Patrick`>TTDP is the reference but they keep changing the code to make it incompatible with us
17:49<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: but that is the problem of TTDP, not of the grf spec
17:49<+glx>Patrick`: that's wrong
17:49<fjb>I don't think you can decouple TTDP and the grf spec.
17:49<Patrick`>oh, TTDP stopped doing that?
17:50<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: nobody asked for that
17:50<+glx>the grf specs are quite stable
17:50<fjb>We can ask Dale Stan what he thinks about your idea if he comes online.
17:52-!-peter1138 [] has quit [Quit: sleep]
17:54<fjb>@seen dale
17:54<@DorpsGek>fjb: I have not seen dale.
17:54<fjb>@seen Dale_stan
17:54<@DorpsGek>fjb: I have not seen Dale_stan.
17:54<fjb>How is his nick?
17:55<+glx>but is on vacation
17:55<fjb>Then we have to wait till he comes back.
17:56<fjb>There is more than one GRF that has to chage the base cost or even uses base costs of other vehicle classes.
17:57<jez9999>is the plan eventually to merge openttd noAI into the main branch?
17:57<fjb>Would a bigger range for vehicle costs be hard to implement in OpenTTD?
17:58<+glx>jez9999: it's far from finished
17:58<jez9999>for me that would really complete openTTD
17:58<jez9999>having all the current patches and the customizable AI
17:58<jez9999>kinda makes the game as it ideally would have been in the first place :-) really fun to play
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>"all the patches" will hardly get in
17:59<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb: i guess it would be quite easy
17:59<jez9999>i meant the ones currently in the main branch
17:59<jez9999>just them and noAI
18:00<jez9999>(now it also has customizable faces :-D)
18:00<Eddi|zuHause2>the "main branch" does not have any patches
18:01<Eddi|zuHause2>the "main branch" is the main reference, like the name suggests... all "patches" have to be relative to that
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18:02<jez9999>it has a 'configure patches' area; that's what i mean
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2>that is a big misnomer ;)
18:02<jez9999>not really
18:02<jez9999>they are patches... on the original reverse-engineered ttd code
18:02<Gonozal_VIII>are you trying to make up for the lack of dalestan eddi?
18:03<Eddi|zuHause2>i have always said that...
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18:04<+glx>I called them "advanced configuration" in french
18:04<+glx>that's what it should be
18:04<Gonozal_VIII>advanced configuration isn't french :-)
18:05<jez9999>well anyway the current config options and noAI
18:05<jez9999>would make it pretty much perfect
18:05<jez9999>of course the track copy/paste stuff in the MiniIN is nice but it almost feels like cheating
18:05<jez9999>no work to create a cloverleaf :-)
18:05<Eddi|zuHause2>there is no such thing as "perfect"
18:05<Gonozal_VIII>why don't you just use the noai branch? it was synced with trunk not long ago
18:05<ln->couldn't someone just change the "configure patches" string to something more appropriate once and for all?
18:05<jez9999>im working to get my machine to be able to compile it now
18:05<jez9999>it's a bit involved...
18:06<Patrick`>or at least remove some patch options to a config file
18:06<jez9999>not sure whether this old directx7 SDK will be good enough to compile it
18:06<Patrick`>the list just keeps growing
18:06<jez9999>trouble is, the directx sdk available now is November, which the wiki page says is too late
18:06<jez9999>i need an earlier version
18:06<jez9999>but this version i have is ancient, like 1999
18:07<jez9999>i think
18:07<jez9999>"You should not use a version newer then August 2007 as DirectMusic is no longer support as of the November 2007 release."
18:08<jez9999>so, like, where do i get the Aug 2007 release
18:08<Patrick`>mmm, directmusic
18:08<+glx>it is available on msdn
18:09<+glx>not easy to find (as often there)
18:09<SmatZ>mmm donuts
18:09<fjb>UKRS or DBset is also changing the base cost. So you can not mix them. Same goes for LV4 and any other road vehicles set.
18:09<jez9999>Validation Required though
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18:09<jez9999>need a bullsh*t-free download
18:09<mrfrenzy>hmm, I just built 12328 with the copypaste patch using BuildOTTD, why does it get version r12328M?
18:10<fjb>M for modified.
18:11<Gonozal_VIII>ah, you mean because it should be able to work with unmodified 12328?
18:11<mrfrenzy>yes, I don't want to have to rebuilt my server
18:11<mrfrenzy>as the patch is completely client side
18:11<Gonozal_VIII>i guess you have to force the version there, but don't ask me, i never did that
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18:12<mrfrenzy>it also says on the patch thread it should work with unmodfied server
18:12<jez9999>think i found the August 2007 SDK :-)
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18:12<jez9999>as for the MS platform SDK; doesn't it come with CS 2003?
18:12<jez9999>VS 2003?
18:12<mrfrenzy>is this a "feature" of BuildOTTD?
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18:12<jez9999>VS2005 i mean?
18:13<Gonozal_VIII>i don't think that buildottd is able to do that
18:13<mrfrenzy>I mean is it buildottd that added the M automatically?
18:14<mrfrenzy>if I get the .exe from here it has no M
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18:21<jez9999>installing directX sdk
18:21<jez9999>this is one heck of a heavy load of stuff
18:24<fjb>You could use UNIX and a cross compiling kit.
18:25<+glx>you can also disable directmusic in project config
18:25<jez9999>why? that's the whole reason i downloaded this version of the sdk
18:26<jez9999>i like the music
18:26<+glx>you can have the music without direct music :)
18:26<jez9999>then why does the wiki say use the Aug version
18:26<fjb>UNIX, a modern, widely used operating system.
18:26<+glx>because MSVC builds can have directmusic
18:26<jez9999>UNIX is an old, rarely-used operating system
18:27<jez9999>actually it's a family of them
18:27<+glx>but mingw don't have it
18:27<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm follow_track.cpp is gone
18:28<fjb>UNIX including the BSD branch is widely used today, so are some clones like Linux and AIX.
18:28<+glx>(and OSX ;) )
18:28<jez9999>you said UNIX, not clones
18:29<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Yes, I had the same problem some hous ago.
18:29<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: You have to reintroduce it.
18:30-!-dih [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:30<fjb>glx: Ofcourse OSX, half of it is BSD, the other half is the Mach kernel and the graphical user interface.
18:30-!-SmatZ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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18:33<fjb>Solaris (UNIX Sytem V) is one of the most modern operating sytems.
18:35<Gonozal_VIII>what's that bitshift stuff in rail_cmd.cpp?
18:35-!-Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:36<jez9999>who uses Solaris?
18:36<SpComb>hmm, missing classes because of OpenTTD
18:37<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: cut the << 16 stuff.
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>but yapp introduces that...
18:38<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: Trust me
18:38<Gonozal_VIII>and trunk has different names for the trackdirs...
18:39-!-Nitehawk [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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18:39<fjb>jez9999: A lot of companies and even people on their PCs are using Solaris. And BSD is also widely used.
18:39<jez9999>depends how you define 'a lot', i guess
18:40<Gonozal_VIII>but doesn't matter... i wanted to wait for new yapp version anyways
18:40-!-Zahl [] has quit [Quit: (~_~]"]
18:40<fjb>jez9999: It is always used when you need releiable systems.
18:40<Gonozal_VIII>all the other patches are at 12345 now
18:40<jez9999>woot, MS platform sdk now installed too
18:40<jez9999>HUGE SDKs
18:40<jez9999>seriously massive
18:44<jez9999>ok building
18:44<jez9999>how long does this thing usually take to build from, scratch?
18:44<jez9999>from memory, it's a couple of minutes
18:44<Gonozal_VIII>5-10 minutes..
18:45<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: It is not that hard to get YAPP working with current trunk.
18:45<Gonozal_VIII>yes but i want new yapp^^
18:46<fjb>Current YAPP has only few bugs.
18:46<jez9999>what does YAPP stand for?
18:47<Gonozal_VIII>and i talked to vikthor, he will update his stuff today
18:47-!-thgerg1 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:48<fjb>Yet Another Pbs Patch
18:49-!-Morloth [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:49<fjb>I'm voting for separate base costs for every GRF in the pool.
18:50<jez9999>hmm, i've now successfully compiled NoAI
18:50<jez9999>now i need to figure out how to get a custom AI :-)
18:51<fjb>You have to write it.
18:51<jez9999>aren't there any kind of good AIs already written?
18:52<fjb>Don't think so. noAI didn't get released yet and is far from ready yet.
18:53<jez9999>could be fun writing one
18:53<jez9999>probably one of those things that sounds fun, but when you write it it gets boring
18:53<fjb>You can be the first one who writes a new ai.
18:54<jez9999>nah there are already 2 or 3
18:54<jez9999>wrightAI and overambitiousAI
18:54<Gonozal_VIII>try a train ai
18:54-!-Ammlller [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:54<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: he will need to write the API first ;)
18:55<Gonozal_VIII>nah, he will bug you to write it ;-)
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18:59<fjb>How many vehicles per class are possible with the pools?
19:05<jez9999>I understand why I'm getting some competitors named 'WrightAI'
19:06<jez9999>but why are some named 'NoAI'?
19:06<jez9999>the only AI engine in my ai dir is WrightAI
19:07<+glx>in your ai dir you should have WrightAI and regression (not directly usable)
19:07<+glx>and NoAI is a c++ AI included in openttd
19:08<jez9999>so i cant edit it
19:08<+glx>you can, but you need to recompile openttd after each change :)
19:08<jez9999>i want to suppress its output to the console
19:08<jez9999>it's very noisy
19:08<+glx>you can force openttd to use only 1 ai
19:09<+glx>start with -a WrightAI
19:12<jez9999>so what if you start a new game with one AI, then save and load it in another instane of noAI where you forced a different AI to run? :-)
19:12-!-Chrill [] has quit [Quit: Visit Thy Link]
19:12<+glx>problems will happen :)
19:13<+glx>ai are not saved yet
19:13<+glx>neither are their states
19:13<jez9999>rob best to compile this to release then, or genning a new map takes ages
19:14<jez9999>but then i dont get a console window...
19:14<+glx>start with -d
19:15<+glx>msvc debug builds are unplayable
19:15<jez9999>well i wouldnt say that
19:16<jez9999>i've played with them a few times
19:16<+glx>very slow
19:17-!-bumblebee [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:19<jez9999>it puts objects and binaries in objs/...
19:19<jez9999>and other data in bin/
19:19<jez9999>and both work together somehow
19:20<+glx>from ide yes
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19:20<+glx>if you want to start it outside VS, you need to copy the exe to bin
19:20<jez9999>because of Squirrel's dynamic nature, i can develop the AI without VS open
19:21<jez9999>im guessing it's some kind of hack allowing you to script C++, or something very close that compiles to C++
19:22<+glx>.nut files are compiled into bytecode and then ran in a virtual machine
19:22<fjb>Sqirrel is an interpreter for a language that looks like C++.
19:22<fjb>It works like embedded perl interpreters.
19:23-!-Zothar [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox]]
19:24<jez9999>so why didnt they just go with Perl or other better-known and more useful scripting langs?
19:24<jez9999>i'd find it a lot easier to script an AI in Perl i think
19:24<+glx>perl is hard to embed on windows
19:24<+glx>and it is very big
19:25<jez9999>big is beautiful
19:25<jez9999>or at least a c-sharpish lang
19:25<jez9999>C++ syntax grates me
19:26<+glx>well squirrel is more c# than c++ as you don't have pointers and -> stuff :)
19:26<+glx>and it is very easy to understand
19:28-!-bumblebee [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:28<fjb>And pointers in perl are really ugly.
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19:30<jez9999>the idea is to get away from pointers
19:30<jez9999>C# does it quite nicely
19:30<jez9999>or rather avoiding ugly syntax
19:31<+glx>no ugly syntax in squirrel
19:31<jez9999>iFJezAI <- FJezAI();
19:31<+glx>that's the only one
19:33<jez9999>hmm so what's that saying
19:33<jez9999>interface to a factory class for my AI
19:33<jez9999>create a static member of that type named iFJezAI ?
19:37-!-caladan [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
19:39<+glx>it adds the FJezAI AIFactory to the list of AIFactories usable by openttd
19:40<jez9999>but in c++ it is: static FMyNewAI iFMyNewAI;
19:41<jez9999>that's not adding anything, it's declaring a member
19:41<+glx><- is like new
19:42<+glx>the important thing is the creation of an AIFactory, as it will then auto register in openttd
19:43<+glx>we do the same for drivers and blitters in openttd
19:43<jez9999>so what's the default namespace in main.nut?
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19:50<jez9999>just interested as to what iFMyNewAI is
19:50<jez9999>not a member of the class
19:50<jez9999>a member of something else
19:50<+glx>it's just a static variable
19:50<Progman>an index of the global table
19:50<+glx>it's a "fire&forget" variable :)
19:50<jez9999>so the core goes through the table checking what classes extend AIfactory
19:51<+glx>hmm indeed the extending classes tell it to openttd on first instanciation
19:52<jez9999>iFJezAI <- FJezAI();
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19:52<jez9999>looks like it's creating a FJezAI class and then making it the only entry in a new table called iFJezAI
19:52<jez9999>which is a bit weird
19:52<jez9999>why not just have one table like "AIFactories"
19:52<dragonhorseboy>does the "allow building adjacent stations" refer to eg pink and yellow platforms being able to be next to each others..not having to stay one tile apart as before?
19:52<jez9999>dragonhorseboy: i think it's about building your own stations next to each other
19:52<+glx>because squirrel can't access everything in openttd
19:53<Sacro>:utf8 on
19:53<+glx>and when you create an AIFactory instance, it is automatically added to AIFactory list of openttd
19:54<jez9999>so is this comment correct:
19:54<jez9999>Tell the core we are an AI by adding an instance of our AI's factory to the iFJezAI table, located in the global table.
19:54<dragonhorseboy>hrm - even with that patch option on when I try build next to someone's station it says "too close to another station"
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19:54<dragonhorseboy>what the hell is that patch option supposed to mean then
19:54<jez9999>dragonhorseboy: you can build your own stations next to your own stations :-)
19:55<Gonozal_VIII>without joining them
19:55<+glx>jez9999: it is in this table just to not be destroyed :)
19:55<jez9999>what does the 'i' at the beginning stand for?
19:55<jez9999>as an OOP programmer i think 'interface' but i guess it's something else
19:56<+glx>it's exactly the same as static iFJezAI FJezAI;
19:56<+glx>and the i means instance
19:56<dragonhorseboy>someone maybe tell the coder to rewrite it as "own stations"
19:56<dragonhorseboy>just a random thought
19:57<jez9999>'static iFJezAI FJezAI' creates a holder variable
19:57<jez9999>not an instance
19:57<dragonhorseboy>thanks anyhow
19:57<+glx>it creates an instance
19:57<jez9999>hmm maybe im thinking in C# not C++
19:57<Sacro>whoo c#
19:57<jez9999>god i always hated C++, creating new objects implicitly
19:58<jez9999>shouldnt it be static <type> <name>?
19:58<Gonozal_VIII>it should...
19:59<+glx>right, I mistyped
19:59<+glx>static FJezAI *iFJezAI; <-- this is a place holder for an FJezAI object :)
20:00<Gonozal_VIII>* stuff sucks :P
20:02<Gonozal_VIII>static FJezAI iFJezAI; <-- placeholder... static FJezAI iFJezAI = new FJezAI(); <-- instanced :P
20:02<jez9999>in C#, that's exactly what it is
20:02<+glx>Gonozal_VIII: wrong you need the *
20:02<jez9999>now i remember the C++ way
20:02<Gonozal_VIII>java too
20:02<jez9999>yeah, i hate C++
20:02<jez9999>in C it makes sense because you're dealing with simple datatypes, fair enough int* is a pointer and int is an actual int
20:02<jez9999>but to create an actual whole class because there is no * is retarded ;-)
20:03<jez9999>oh well
20:03<+glx>same as static int i;
20:03<jez9999>im gonna convert it to C# terminology
20:04<jez9999>static FJezAi iFJezAI = new FJezAi();
20:04<jez9999>makes much more sense
20:04<+glx>but fails in c++
20:04<jez9999>dont care, c++ sux. :-)
20:04<jez9999>my brain handles c# better
20:04<+glx>new is like malloc with more stuff
20:04<jez9999>im talking 'equivalents' here, so it doesnt matter, its just to help me understand in comments :-)
20:05<jez9999>even so, i dont quite see how
20:05<jez9999>iFJezAI <- FJezAI();
20:05<jez9999>is the equivalent of
20:05<jez9999>static FJezAi iFJezAI = new FJezAi();
20:05<jez9999>"Class instances are created by calling a class object."
20:05<jez9999>FJezAi() is 'calling a class object' i guess
20:06<+glx>FJezAI() creates an instance, and it is stored in iFJezAI
20:06<jez9999>iFJezAI in Squireel is a table, right?
20:06<+glx>dunno, and it doesn't matter for me :)
20:06<jez9999>but that table itself is in another table, the global table
20:06<jez9999>so it's an instance in a table in a table
20:07<+glx>no it's a table local to your ai
20:07-!-De_Ghost [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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20:10<jez9999>i'd think of stuff local to my AI as being inside my AI class
20:10<jez9999>this is outside my AI class yet still local to my AI, why bother with an AI class :-)
20:10<+glx>FJezAI register itself in openttd through it's constructor
20:11<+glx>or to be precise the AIFactory() constructor
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20:12<jez9999>it has no constructor
20:12<jez9999>ah right i see
20:13<+glx>it has in c++ :)
20:13<jez9999>in the class definition at the top, there is:
20:13<jez9999> function Start();
20:13<jez9999> function Stop();
20:13<jez9999>yet these functions are also defined further down
20:13<jez9999>why are they in there twice?
20:13<+glx>declaration and definition are separated
20:13<Progman>the first is the declaration
20:14<jez9999>you........ need to declare all functions first?
20:14<Progman>you can write it inside your class if you want
20:14<jez9999>my god this language is from the dark ages
20:15<jez9999>neither C# nor Perl requires or allows you to 'declare' a function
20:15<jez9999>there's a good reason for it, it's redundant and pointless
20:16<+glx>no it allows to split interface from implementation
20:17<Progman>you dont need it, if you dont want it just dont do it ;)
20:18<Progman>I use the direct way instead of separated declaration and definition
20:20<jez9999>obviously there's a reason they're there?
20:20<Progman>to split interface from implementation, repeating glx
20:20<jez9999>there are several ways to split interface from implementation
20:20<jez9999>one is to use comments to specify the interface at the top of the class
20:21<jez9999>another is to use an IDE that scans the implementation and products an interface list
20:21<jez9999>another is to use interface types and implement them
20:21<jez9999>but declarations are horrible, and totally redundant.
20:21<Progman>noone force you to write your ai this way
20:21<jez9999>you always have to change two things if you want to change the function sig
20:21<jez9999>just making the point :-)
20:21*a1270 will stick with fortran77
20:22<fjb>The 77 kind is far too modern.
20:23<fjb>The whole Fortran77 spcification fits on a sheet of A4 paper, including examples.
20:23<Sacro>what font?
20:24<fjb>Hand written.
20:24-!-murray [murray@2001:470:1f0a:1be::beef] has joined #openttd
20:26<jez9999>local inst = Foo();
20:26<jez9999>hmm, interesting way of doing things
20:26<jez9999>no need for a new operator, just treat the classname as a function
20:26*a1270 gets back to trying to learn C++
20:26<jez9999>i guess there's a reason C# etc dont do it that way
20:27<jez9999>probably because it would bugger up if you had a method Foo in the current class
20:28<jez9999>im off to bed, 1.30am
20:28-!-jez9999 [] has quit []
20:28<Sacro>i do C# this yar and c++ and prolog next year
20:28<+glx>jez is still the same :)
20:28<+glx>complain, complain, complain ...
20:33<fjb>Was he always that way?
20:33*fjb just found his VM/CMS manual.
20:34<+glx>usually it's why is the coding style that way :)
20:35<Sacro>fjb: port openttd to it
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20:36<fjb>He should stick to his beloved C# then and never try to work in a team.
20:36<fjb>Sacro: TTD on a text terminal is a bit ugly.
20:36<Sacro>fjb: true
20:36<Sacro>what's wrong with C#?
20:37<+glx>nothing, it's very nice to do .net stuff
20:38<fjb>It's syntax is a bit ugly. But the question is why he doesn't accept the fact that different languages are different.
20:38<Sacro>fjb: the syntax is similar to c and php
20:38<+glx>for me all languages are the same :)
20:38<fjb>The C syntax is also ugly.
20:39<fjb>glx: You are fluent in caml?
20:39<+glx>I learnt it at university
20:39<+glx>nice language
20:39<fjb>It looks nice, but I never really got used to it.
20:39<+glx>everything is a function
20:40<fjb>Yes, but I always get a knot in my brain when I try to write caml.
20:40<+glx>the hardest thing to follow is the half functions (or something like that)
20:41<fjb>Maybe I should do more things in caml.
20:42<+glx>like you when you have min(a, b) and you define min0(b) = min(0,b)
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20:42<+glx>can't remember the syntax precisely
20:42<fjb>Do you have to write the parentheses?
20:42<+glx>no IIRC
20:43<fjb>How about replacing squirrel by ocaml? :-)
20:43<+glx>should be something like min a b = if a < b then a else b
20:44<+glx>and min0 = min a
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20:44<+glx>hmm min0 = min 0
20:45<+glx>or something like that
20:45<+glx>was a long time ago
20:47<fjb>I just looked at the manual, but I never learned that languages. I tried it, but then lost interest.
20:49<fjb>At least I learned some things about OpenTTD yesterday.
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21:01<fjb>The new slowing down of the airplanes on the runway looks great.
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21:09<+glx>real caml code :
21:09<+glx>let add a b = a + b;;
21:09<+glx>let f = add 2;;
21:11<fjb>Yes, that looks better.
21:12<+glx>the nasty ;; ;)
21:13<fjb>Would jez like that better than Squirrel?
21:13<+glx>let rec fact x = if x = 1 then 1 else x * fact (x - 1);;
21:14<+glx>I like this one :)
21:14<fjb>That is really nice.
21:18<fjb># let rec fact x = if x = 1 then 1 else x * fact (x - 1);;
21:18<fjb>val fact : int -> int = <fun>
21:18<fjb># fact 3;;
21:18<fjb>- : int = 6
21:18<+glx>and it works ;)
21:20<fjb>And that one is really easy to understand.
21:20<+glx>val add : int -> int -> int
21:21<fjb>Tho intergers input, one integer output.
21:21<+glx>fal f : int -> int = <fun>
21:21<Eddi|zuHause3>my kwin crashed, so i went to the console and started a new kwin... but it started kwin from kde4...
21:22*fjb is waiting for 4.1 before installing it.
21:22<Eddi|zuHause3>it has totally different style set up...
21:23<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i tried it out... and i found there were too many... inconveniencies... so i switched back
21:23<Eddi|zuHause3>but it is still installed
21:23<+glx>we did a samegame in caml at university, working on arrays and list is very nice in this language
21:24<Eddi|zuHause3>what is a "same" game? i read this before...
21:25<+glx>the goal is to remove all the balls
21:25<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: You should know it. it is part of kde3.
21:25<Eddi|zuHause3>i did not install all games...
21:25<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, i know the game, i just couldn't connect it to the name
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21:31*fjb tried list processing in C++. It was really ugly.
21:32<Eddi|zuHause3>do list processing in python unless you want to go insane...
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21:33<+glx>fjb tried list processing in C++. It was really ugly. <-- using iterators?
21:35<fjb>That was the second try after STL got published. It wasn't that much better.
21:35<+glx>we have some fun with iterators in noai :)
21:36<fjb>I guess. :-)
21:37<fjb>I had some fun with endless loops.
21:37<+glx>we have more problems with invalidated iterators :)
21:38<fjb>And always the question "why did linking fail this time?"
21:39<Eddi|zuHause3>fjb: you only have endless loops if you do it wrong
21:39<+glx>linking works, the question was why does it segfault :)
21:39<fjb>And then trying to match the C binding errors to C++ classes.
21:39<+glx>the usual missing extern "C" { } ;)
21:40<fjb>It also happened inside C++ classes. And with overloading it isn't always obvious what went wrong.
21:42<fjb>It was a night mare.
21:43<fjb>Does C++ have a generic object copy funktion now?
21:43<Eddi|zuHause3>Error: abundant space
21:44<+glx>you need to define the copy constructor
21:44<+glx>MyObject(MyObject &object)
21:44<fjb>So I still have to implement cloning for each object?
21:45<+glx>how can it know what to do?
21:46-!-Wolfensteijn [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:46<fjb>Basic cloning is easy and sufficient for most objects. Ofcourse you have to implement cloning for special objects.
21:47<+glx>hmm I think the basic cloning always work, but it won't copy all extra data (as they aren't in Object)
21:48<+glx>that's why you need to define the copy constructor
21:48<fjb>I can not know about that extra data. But the the basic cloning was not part of early C++.
21:49<+glx>btw it's easy to try :)
21:49<fjb>Yes, but it is easier to ask somebody fluent in C++.
21:50<+glx>I'm not fluent :)
21:50<fjb>It could even provide a deep cloning, but I doubt that it has that functinality.
21:51<+glx>you maybe need to define operator=(MyObject &object)
21:52<fjb>Does that clone the object or just give you a new handle to the same object?
21:53<+glx>probably depends on the code in it, but I'm not sure
21:54<fjb>I'm probably to lazy for C++. I always thought why can it not do this things for me?
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22:08<fjb>The ai is stupid. It build a street that crosses my straight railway line three times.
22:12<Eddi|zuHause3>"The AI is stupid." - You should have stopped right there
22:13<fjb>YAPP makes it only half the fun.
22:13<Eddi|zuHause3>ah... closing on reservation...
22:14<Eddi|zuHause3>i think that can be abused pretty badly...
22:14<fjb>But on the other hand it is a very long single track line...
22:15<fjb>The crossings will be closed almost half of the travel time of that single train there.
22:16<Eddi|zuHause3>exactly... you can block an innocent competitor's road line for ages...
22:16<+glx>next time he will use a bridge or a tunnel ;)
22:17<fjb>But the ai is too stupid for that.
22:17<Eddi|zuHause3>not if the road was there first...
22:18<fjb>Another ai made two lines connicting the same two industries with trucks. It build two roads which are crossing each other several times.
22:19<+glx>even a single road can cross itself multiple times
22:19<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... i remember the TTO AI reusing roads occasionally
22:19<Phantasm>What do you expect? IT is the AI. ;P
22:20<+glx>I remember seeing an AI building track in one direction and a bridge over the track in the other direction
22:21<fjb>I have seen it building a raod bridge over a road where it should have to connect to to reach the destination.
22:22<+glx>the better thing was the road connected to a tunnel ending from above
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22:25<fjb>We will miss that fun with the new ai.
22:28<Eddi|zuHause3>what i found the worst with road building is that it wouldn't remove them like rails
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22:29<fjb>Yes. It would have to pay for removing them.
22:29<+glx>it pays for rails too (but it also get money)
22:29<Eddi|zuHause3>so if you like had a diagonal rail line which it couldn't cross, you'd end up with your rail line enclosed between road loops
22:30<fjb>Now it build only airplanes. usually not a bad idea, but with the passenger destinations patzch it is a sure way to get bankrupt in no time.
22:30<Eddi|zuHause3>and you have no way of removing the road
22:30<+glx>the main problem with road removing is you can break others' routes
22:30<UnderBuilder>would be good if the openttd musictracks are made with the new sound effects
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22:30<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, it wouldn't be a problem if the road route was properly planned in advance
22:31<Eddi|zuHause3>"the new soundeffects"?!?
22:31<fjb>noAI supports palning in advance.
22:31<UnderBuilder>a orchest of train horns, sawmills and cows
22:31<UnderBuilder>I mean the sound replacement proyect
22:31<Eddi|zuHause3>you are a sick person...
22:32<Eddi|zuHause3>and you can do all that already, just replace the sound samples in your midi player
22:33<UnderBuilder>well, I'm a bit crazy (drunken without alcohol) but for example in mario paint composer the musical notes are super mario soundeffects
22:34<Eddi|zuHause3>and i just told you... the music is just midi notes, the player takes the real sounds from a database in your system, just replace the instruments in the database
22:34<Eddi|zuHause3>they are not part of (open)TTD
22:35<fjb>Who teaches the ai about trams? :-)
22:35<+glx>night all
22:36<fjb>night glx
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22:37<fjb>Imagine tram tracks everywhere. :-)
22:38<Eddi|zuHause3>trams are much more difficult than busses
22:38<Eddi|zuHause3>you have to take into account turning loops
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22:41<fjb>The ai would have to learn about drive through bus stops first.
22:42<Eddi|zuHause3>yes. but it can probably build those already, and it can still do normal bus terminals at the end of the lines to make sure the busses can turn around
22:43<fjb>As long as the busses are not articulated.
22:45<Eddi|zuHause3>it is about time we get those newgrf stations...
22:45*Sacro has norwegian wood
22:46<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't think we want to know...
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22:46<Sacro>!seen Bjarni
22:47<Gonozal_VIII>[23:53:53] <@Bjarni> goodnight
22:49<fjb>Yes, that stations would be great. nd animated stations.
22:53<fjb>Good night.
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 06 00:00:37 2008