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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-03-08

---Logopened Sat Mar 08 00:00:40 2008
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02:12<Eddi|zuHause3>why is it quiet in IRC at 5:45? hm... leave me a few minutes to think...
02:12<@peter1138>Well, that was a weird dream.
02:13<@peter1138>I dreamt I had branched 0.6 already.
02:13<@peter1138>Then I woke up, and I *had* branched 0.6.
02:13<@peter1138>Then I woke up for real...
02:21<Eddi|zuHause3>how do you know you are actually awake now?
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02:22*Gekz hears peter1138 yell out 'son of a bitch'
02:23<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i gtg
02:23<Gekz>you do that
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04:42<aleex>Gonozal_VIII, ;)
04:42<aleex>Gonozal_VIII, why not monitoring the price?
04:42<Gonozal_VIII>who where?
04:43<Gonozal_VIII>because you can't influence it anyways?
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05:30<Roujin>nice latency there...
05:31<Roujin>sorry. i was bored ><
05:33<Roujin>isn't "show supplied cargo" in your pack gono?
05:34<Gonozal_VIII>patchpack is in... why?
05:35<Roujin>i reckon quite a few people are playing with your pack, so why the heck has nobody ever complained that the supplied cargo line is waaaay off for the newgrf rail station build window? ><
05:35<Gonozal_VIII>don't ask me...
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05:35<Roujin>nobody playing with newstations nowadays, or everyone just too lazy to report a bug? :P
05:36<Wolf01>buon giorno!
05:36<Gonozal_VIII>i would vote for lazyness
05:36<Roujin>hello there wolf
05:36<Gonozal_VIII>john porno
05:37<Roujin>depressing to find a bug in your own code that you know about 251 people have probably spotted it before, but noone reported ><
05:38<@peter1138>When to software development.
05:39<Gonozal_VIII>when you fixed it, can you please tell me how then because i did a lot of changifications
05:39<@peter1138>It’s also fun when someone makes some remark that a bug is “widely known” but has never reported.
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05:40<Roujin>gono: sure, it's just one line that needs changing
05:40<@peter1138>Oh, coincidence :D
05:42<Roujin>theres an offset of 90 pixels if there are newgrf stations loaded (because of the selecting stuff), unfortunately I added the offset another time for the "Supplied Cargo: ..." line:P
05:42<Roujin>and seems I only tested without any newgrfs loaded back when I made it x_x
05:43<@peter1138>Pah, useless things anyway.
05:43<Roujin>what, offsets? newgrfs? stations?
05:49<Gonozal_VIII>everything spanish and french and italian and no english or at least german :-/
05:57<Roujin>gonozal: apart from that little fix, i'm doing some cleanup/remove unneeded stuff atm... if you want to update it, i reckon it's easier to throw out the old one and include the new one once i've posted it in the forum..
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05:58<Gonozal_VIII>cleanup and removing unneeded stuff are the changifications i did...
05:58<Gonozal_VIII>directly inside the patch file
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06:02<Roujin>well i now also removed the changes done to initial window size - they're actually not needed anymore because it's resized anyways to the exactly fitting size (since resizing was introduced in trunk)
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06:05<Roujin>just compiling now to see if it really works like it's supposed to...
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06:16*LordAzamath greets
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06:32<LordAzamath>how does one make an industry which behaves as a station with newgrfs.. Like the oil rig..
06:33<Roujin>maybe it's only possible for industries on water for now?
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06:34<LordAzamath>I was having a thought about underground stations...
06:34<Roujin>george should know something about that.. he's done fishing grounds in ecs...
06:34<Roujin>heh, underground stations
06:34<Roujin>funny guy you are :P
06:34<LordAzamath>I can do it just eyecandy with normal grfs too
06:35<LordAzamath>but then the houses on top of the stations won't produce anything
06:36<Roujin>I'd like to see a nice newgrf for that.. but not with normal houses but some sort of station bulding on top
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06:43<LordAzamath>closed top and some buildings on it
06:48<Roujin>yes, this with closed top and some sort of station building would be very nice
06:48<Roujin>is what you posted an existing newgrf or a mockup?
06:48<LordAzamath>canadian stations set
06:49<Gonozal_VIII>what would be the point of an underground station if it has a station building on top?
06:49<LordAzamath>but the idea of an industry came when I thought that the houses on it should generate pax too..
06:51<@peter1138>Feh, you just need *real* underground stuff :o
06:52<LordAzamath>peter1138, I didn't want to upset you devs again with the "An awesome new idea!!!!! Underground stations" thingie :P
06:53<LordAzamath>and then get pointed to numerous suggestion threads
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06:53<Gekz>peter1138: is creating an underground layer even possible?
06:53<Gonozal_VIII>why should it be impossible?
06:53<LordAzamath>well... you need another ui for that :P
06:54<Gonozal_VIII>transparency switch for the top layer :-)
06:54<LordAzamath>and what will it show on the bottom layer?
06:55<LordAzamath>needs sprites
06:55<LordAzamath>or void
06:55<Gonozal_VIII>bare land sprites
06:55<Gonozal_VIII>void is replaced with water for me^^
06:55<LordAzamath>how would you deal with slopes iunderground?
06:55<LordAzamath>Gonozal_VIII, me too :P
06:56<Gonozal_VIII>no slopes underground..
06:56<LordAzamath>but you have to have height differences nonetheless...
06:57<Gonozal_VIII>cut through the landscape layer by layer...
06:57<LordAzamath>now how many is the max height ?
06:58<Gonozal_VIII>you can choose which layer to view with ctrl - and ctrl + :-)
06:58<LordAzamath>make a patch
06:58<Gonozal_VIII>15 is max height
06:59<Roujin>current design of map array doesn't allow underground stuff
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07:00<LordAzamath>new map array :O !!
07:00<Gonozal_VIII>if you don't care about size, you could have 16 layers of the current array...
07:00<Roujin>forget thinking about the ui or cosmetical stuff as long as there's no way to store the necessary information somewhere ;)
07:00<Gonozal_VIII>hmmm i guess it could be compressed a lot if most of it is empty
07:00<@peter1138>And at 256x256, that's the same 'size' as a 1024x1024 map...
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07:03<LordAzamath>which leads to my current question about making your life easier and having a newgrf :P
07:12<LordAzamath>but I'll deal with it later
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07:15<yorick><yorick> dih: I've been tinking about the moving-clients patch, what about sending a command to the client first, and only change the value on the server if a confirmation is recieved? <-- why is that a bad idea?
07:17<yorick>"move client company" _> PACKET_SERVER_MOVE_REQ(company) _> PACKET_CLIENT_MOVE_CONF _> PACKET_SERVER_CLIENT_INFO to all clients (all packets have normal priority)
07:20<dih>and what if i patch my client to never send a confirm?
07:21<dih>important rule: dont trust clients :-)
07:21<yorick>I know
07:21<yorick>if move doesn't work, server admins can always kick people
07:21<dih>then a confirmation packet is the wrong approach
07:21<dih>the whole point of move is so that people dont _have_ to be kicked
07:21<yorick>if a client doesn't agree with a move the way it is now, it will kick it on the next docommand too
07:22<dih>clients cannot disagree
07:22<dih>they can only not support it
07:23<dih>which is not the same
07:23<yorick>if I patch my client to ignore the PACKET_SERVER_MOVE, wouldn't that do the same?
07:24<dih>you would send invalid data to the server
07:24<dih>and get kicked
07:24<dih>but not because you ignored the move
07:24<dih>only because you sent wrong details in your packets
07:24<yorick>ignoring the move is the first cause of kicking
07:25<dih>you can stay connected as long as you dont do anything
07:26*LordAzamath heads to ttdpatch wiki
07:26<yorick>I still think the correct way to do it is from the client, because clients send the commands, and the server only recieves them from the client. You could also temporarily accept both players to execute commands to, so you could detect when the client has executed the move.
07:27<yorick>Or you could make the confirmation time out, so the server would execute the move anyway after a number of seconds
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07:50<yorick>what happens if a client recieves a command it doesn't know
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07:55<Ammller>Heya, someone around who does translate openttd in his language?
07:55<yorick>try on openttd.wt2
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08:00<yorick>hmm...the join command format is pretty strange: ip#company:port
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08:02<Wolf01>indeed, it should be ip:port#address,telephone'company
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08:09<dih>did you try writing it any other way?
08:10<yorick>writing what?
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08:30<jez>Are there any plans to integrate the copy/paste track feature into the main OpenTTD?
08:30<jez>i'm finding myself wanting it a lot though :-)
08:30<jez>having to manually build cloverleafs is annoying
08:31<yorick>some see it as a cheat
08:31<yorick>cloverleafs are bad!
08:31<Gonozal_VIII>yep, very bad
08:32<jez>seem like a pretty efficient way of connecting my network together
08:32<yorick>they arent
08:32<yorick>they jam easily
08:33<jez>slight problem with that is it takes up a mile of space
08:33<jez>cloverleafs are nice and compact
08:33<Gonozal_VIII>and slow...
08:33<yorick>and unifficient
08:33<Ammller>Gonozal_VIII: you know the code well now. :-)
08:34<Gonozal_VIII>yes, uniffecoint
08:34<Ammller>how hard would it be to change gui so it would be possible to build rivers in playmode
08:34<Gonozal_VIII>inefficient ;-)
08:34<yorick>not very
08:34<Ammller>unit the framework is done?
08:34<yorick>removing check and adding button, I think
08:35<Ammller>rivers is quite useless for mp mode at the moment
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08:35<jez>it's silly to see copy/paste as a cheat. any competent AI is going to be able to construct these things very quickly
08:35<jez>humans should have the same ability
08:35<fjb>Ai is cheating.
08:35<yorick>AI's have delays too
08:35<Ammller>jez: who said, is cheating?
08:35<fjb>But ai is braindead.
08:35<jez>Ammller: some people, apparently
08:36*yorick raises hand
08:36<Gonozal_VIII>nah, copy paste is not cheating
08:36<yorick>fjb appears to be one of them
08:36<fjb>We should allow humans to cheat in the same way as the ai does if the human player proofs that he is as braindead as the ai is.
08:36<Ammller>Gonozal_VIII: yes, I mean that, but unit that will be done, we need something to have rivers
08:37<jez>fjb: i said a competent AI, something implemented into the noAI
08:37<yorick>fjb: AI's can terraform for free
08:37<fjb>yorick: Every player as braindead as the ai is should be allowed to terraform for free.
08:37<yorick>terraforming for free is a bad idea
08:38<yorick>in MP, especially
08:38*yorick imagines flooding for free
08:38<fjb>But that players would be too braindead to breath. So that case is hypothetical.
08:39<jez>if you could terraform for free i'd removal all land
08:40<fjb>Me imagines eight players each using mass copied stations all over the map. The one with the faster connection wins.
08:40<Gonozal_VIII>it doesn't work that way
08:40<yorick>shouldn't client_lang be updated with SERVER_PACKET_CLIENT_INFO?
08:40<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: How does it work?
08:41<Gonozal_VIII>paste speed is a server setting and the same for every client
08:41<yorick>client_lang is not sent to the clients right now, is it?
08:41<fjb>You can not limit paste speed without side effects on other players.
08:41<Gonozal_VIII>it's not instant pasting as in single player
08:41<Gonozal_VIII>you can
08:42<yorick>(lets see how flags would suit the client list :))
08:42<fjb>How? Imagine a bottleneck in the network that suddenly comes free. IP packets jam at the the bottleneck and then reach the server all at the same tuime.
08:43<Gonozal_VIII>just try it in a mp game
08:43<dih>there is a server side patch for copy&pate
08:43<yorick>but, wouldn't the patch value sent in the savegame get invalid chunk size on unpatched clients?
08:43<fjb>That can not reliably work when packets are ariving out of order or in case of network jams.
08:44<yorick>TCP makes sure that packets will arrive in order
08:44<dih>packets dont arrive out of order
08:45<fjb>TCP caches packets until they are in order and then gives them to the upper layer all at once.
08:45<jez>copy/paste should involve functionality to tell the server to build all the pieces of the paste at once
08:45<jez>not in order
08:45<yorick>then you need a patched server
08:45<jez>well just a server running an appropriate version of openTTD (that has paste functionality)
08:45<dih>pasting is done tile by tile
08:45<jez>currently it is
08:45<jez>but it doesnt need to be
08:45<yorick>but that is not the way how copy&paste works (dih said that)
08:45<fjb>yorick: That is a feature of the network stack, not a feature of any user space program.
08:46<yorick>copy&paste works by doing DoCommandP's for each tile
08:46<dih>and the reason for the limit is to not block other players docommands
08:46<jez>i think we've had quite a long period of MP games with no copy/paste functionality and spaghetti networks everywhere. now it would be nice to have some MP games with well-constructed networks, and genuine competition between players, ie. who can build the most efficient network :-)
08:47<dih>pasting junctions is silly
08:47<jez>there could be a server switch to enable/disable copy paste anyway
08:47<dih>how often do you need the same junction?
08:47<jez>very regularly?
08:47<fjb>On flat land...
08:47<dih>then you dont build well :-D
08:47<yorick>nope, custom junctions everywhere!
08:48<Gonozal_VIII>[14:47:19] <jez> there could be a server switch to enable/disable copy paste anyway <-- there is
08:48<jez>copy/pasting ensures you dont screw up a signal or something :-)
08:48<jez>Gonozal_VIII: how can there be, copy/paste isnt build into the client
08:48<jez>unless you're talking about miniIN servers
08:48<dih>then you build even worse if you have the tendency to screw up
08:48<jez>dih: shrug, i get bored with building the same stuff
08:48<Gonozal_VIII>copy paste speed on the server set to 255 is off
08:48<fjb>The server side can not work without side effects on ordinary users, as I explained above.
08:48<jez>as the brain should :-)
08:49<jez>please explain how you can copy/paste when the client doesnt have it built in
08:49<Gonozal_VIII>it's composed of normal game actions
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08:50<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: When it is composed of normal game actions, how does a copy paste detection work?
08:50<dih>jez: if you always build the same stuff - how boring must it get?
08:50<jez>in terms of joining junctions, i build the same stuff
08:50<jez>in terms of the network, obviously not
08:51<jez>but yes after a while i guess TTD gets boring, but it is a long while :-)
08:51<jez>and you come back to it again and again, even if you are copy/pasting junctions
08:51<jez>it's a whole lot more boring rebuilding the same track
08:51<dih>how about never building a junction twice?
08:51<dih>using hilly landscapes
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08:51<jez>how about, there is 1 or 2 junction designs that are just better and you have to build them twice?
08:51<dih>and having a bit more of a challenge
08:51<jez>because i want an efficient network?
08:52<jez>and dont want to waste building time when i could be adding to the network
08:52<dih>check out openttdcoop's junctionary :-)
08:52<Gonozal_VIII>besides copy&paste is not only for building the same junctions over and over again
08:52<jez>my challenge is connecting the whole map up, not spaghetti tracks
08:52<dih>challenge is building that all, and not on flat terrains and not terraforming anything
08:52<Gonozal_VIII>you could for example copy and save the shape of the terrain and fix it if somebody (like the ai) messed it up
08:53<jez>not sure id bother with that :-)
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08:53<jez>however the other thing very useful to copy/paste would be stations
08:53<dih>you play with the ai? ^^
08:53<jez>i have great fun using it in the miniIN, i just wish it were in the main client
08:53<Gonozal_VIII>i tried a few times^^
08:54<jez>i'd like the noAI and copy/paste in the main client, then i'd pretty much want no other features
08:54<dih>how boring must that be
08:54<dih>all stations looking the same :-(
08:54<jez>if you dont want copy/paste, dont use it anyway. why do you have a problem with it
08:54<jez>people who want to use it can do
08:54<dih>jez: you have no creativity :-)
08:54<jez>yes i do, i've just been using it too much for years in openTTD :-)
08:54<dih>i know people who use it for things thatin 70% of the cases look the same
08:55<jez>tired of horrid looking networks, i want a game where i have one really well-designed network
08:55<Gonozal_VIII>you could also paste some basic track layout to get things running faster and then optimise that...
08:55<Ammller>jez, look at copy&paste thead, there are "main" clients compiled with c&p
08:55<dih>if you track layout is 64^2
08:55<jez>Ammller: not really, not downloadable on the openttd site
08:55<Ammller>but never join #openttdcoop with it
08:55<jez>it should be in the trunk imho :-)
08:56<jez>with a server switch to turn it off
08:56<Ammller>jetz, it has already
08:56<jez>then the server admin can decide on whether to allow c&p[
08:56<jez>no, it hasnt, it's not in the main openttd client
08:56<fjb>There is no possible server side switch which doesn't affect other players.
08:56<dih>the server admin can controll the speed of pasting
08:56<Ammller>you can adjust the speed for building with c&p
08:56<dih>fjb: there is
08:57<dih>funny thing is
08:57<fjb>How does that switch differntiate betwenn pasting and the actions of a usual player arriving at the server all at the same time?
08:57<dih>if i set the paste speed to 200
08:57<dih>then you paste one docommand every 200 ticks :-)
08:57<dih>and you cannot cancle the action :-P
08:57<dih>until you disconnect :-D
08:58<LordAzamath>that makes it quite slow, doesn't it?
08:58<dih>fjb: it does not work that way
08:58<jez>i dont understand, if there is a way to 'disable' copy/pasting on the server, what is the problem with having it in the main client?
08:58<fjb>dih: How is it working?
08:58<jez>those who want to use it can use it, it's an extra feature
08:58<dih>fjb: can you keep a secret?
08:58<fjb>dih: Yes. :-)
08:58<dih>so can i
08:59<LordAzamath>jez> that's why they are patches.. If you want to use them, compile them :)
08:59<dih>nice one LA
08:59<jez>LordAzamath: i mean why isnt it in the default set of patches?
08:59<dih>why does everybody what their fav patch in trunk?
09:00<jez>name another fav patch that is so unproblematic to implement
09:00<dih>move clients :-D
09:00*LordAzamath wants move clients into trunk....
09:00<dih>server talks mouve patch
09:00<dih>now that is a nice thing
09:00<dih>useful on openttdcoop
09:01<dih>then all chat from irc has a different color
09:01<dih>and you can distinguish between spec chat, irc chat and company chat
09:01<jez>does the latest miniIN have noAI?:
09:01<LordAzamath>miniIN is WAAY old
09:01<LordAzamath>and NoAI is only a framework
09:02<LordAzamath>latest miniIN came out about a year ago... I had not even joined then :P
09:02<dih>noai has noai
09:02<dih>nnothing else does
09:02<jez>i just think copy/paste is a major feature that makes a lot of sense, and is worthy of the trunk :-)
09:02<jez>as is noAI
09:02<LordAzamath>jez, good that you think so
09:02<jez>(once it has some sensible AIs made)
09:02<dih>jez: play chrisIN
09:03<LordAzamath>and noAI can only cope with road vehicles atm..
09:03<LordAzamath>server tlaks mauve??
09:03<LordAzamath>typos ftw
09:03<jez>lord: road, airplane, and boats actually
09:04<dih>and by the way
09:04<dih>the reload cfg patch was also an easy one
09:04<dih>but that is server only :-P
09:06<jez>why chrisIN
09:06<dih>yes - tb has been doing some work on noai
09:06<jez>it doesnt seem to have noAI or copy/paste
09:06<dih>chrisin has c&p
09:07<dih>at least i thought it did
09:07<jez>PDF doesnt say so
09:07<dih>and no - it will not have noai
09:07<dih>then it does not
09:07<dih>then ask for inclusion
09:07<jez>no actually it was added later
09:07<jez>why wont it have noAI?
09:07<LordAzamath>why should it have noAI?
09:08<dih>because noai aint ready
09:08<jez>maybe he should branch it
09:08<jez>have a noai build
09:08<jez>one day there will be good AIs :-)
09:08<jez>you can sit and watch them fight
09:09<LordAzamath>jez, maybe he should, but that's all him to decide.. They have real life too and sometimes not enough time to even update things (the patch collectors :P)
09:09<LordAzamath>btw and you can get noAI binaries
09:09<jez>does chrisAI have savegame compat with openttd 0.6.0-beta4?
09:09<jez>i've compiled noAI myself
09:10<jez>just be nice to have a ready-compiled one
09:10<LordAzamath>well.. there is one :P
09:10<LordAzamath>at the link I sent you
09:10<jez>but with c/p and stuff
09:10<LordAzamath>and who should compile and update it?
09:11<LordAzamath>you can apply multiple patches yourself too
09:11<dih>jeez... your a pain ^^
09:11*LordAzamath agrees with dih
09:12<dih>like a little kid wanting to be fed by mummy all the time
09:12<LordAzamath>Belugas, where was the hungry birds picture?
09:12<LordAzamath>Somewhere in your namespace in
09:13-!-Draakon [] has joined #openttd
09:15<dih>is that 3rd l a typo?
09:16<LordAzamath>dih: no
09:17*LordAzamath never typos
09:17<dih>i.e. hell lo
09:17<dih>lo as in (hel)lo
09:17<Draakon>i get it
09:17<LordAzamath>hell no
09:17<dih>why not hell!lo
09:17-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:17<Draakon>LordAzamath; you just had extra l in your hello, so a typo
09:18<LordAzamath>dih, it's just I like to write helllo :P
09:18<LordAzamath>aka hello
09:18-!-glx [] has joined #openttd
09:18-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
09:18<dih>i though you were refering to hell :-D
09:18-!-Ridayah [~ridayah@] has joined #openttd
09:18<LordAzamath>:O gl[tab] joined :O
09:18<Draakon>dih: why did you think that?
09:19<dih>because of the third l
09:19<jez>well, the trunk of openTTD is being updated regularly...
09:20<jez>how is it decided how it will be updated? if putting new patches in the trunk is not good, why does it get updated at all?
09:20<+glx>many of them :)
09:20<jez>ive not encountered any bugs for ages
09:20<LordAzamath>well that doesn't mean they don't exist
09:21<Draakon>jez: a similar question to you then: why do you go to school if the stuff you learn there is not good?
09:21<+glx>I can crash any beta3 and beta4 servers
09:21<jez>erm, that's a totally unsimilar question
09:21<jez>not even analogous
09:21<LordAzamath>glx, but beta5?
09:22<+glx>no killer bug for beta5 AFAIK
09:22<LordAzamath>probably with patched client, you can :P
09:22<LordAzamath>glx, where can I get todays changelog?
09:22<+glx>yes that should be possible, but beta3 and beta4 are with unpatched clients
09:23<+glx>on nightlies page
09:23<jez>i have another question; is there a patch that changes the rating of your services? i think that's kind of a bug in the main trunk. you can only only usually get your rating up to about 75%, no matter what
09:23<LordAzamath>ty draakon
09:23<jez>this doesnt allow you to complete properly with competitors, you should be able to get up to 100%
09:23<LordAzamath>jez, it's not a bug
09:23<Draakon>jez: its not a bug and no, there isnt
09:23<jez>not a bug?
09:24<LordAzamath>it means you are not servicing it well enough
09:24<+glx>with a statue you can get 100%
09:24<LordAzamath>w/o statue you cant
09:24<jez>lol a statue?
09:24<LordAzamath>and your vehicles have to be new
09:24<jez>that... doesnt make sense
09:24<Draakon>it does
09:24<LordAzamath>yes it does
09:24<+glx>and always waiting
09:24<+glx>and fast
09:24<jez>so like bribing the local authority with a statue
09:24<jez>i thought the game was based on service quality
09:25<Draakon>it is
09:25<jez>a statue has nothing to do with that
09:25<Draakon>it does
09:25<LordAzamath>a statue raises your.. reputation
09:26<Draakon>statues can make a lot of things then just sitting in the empty cold street
09:26<LordAzamath>and you can also make advertizing campaigns..
09:26<Draakon>read this
09:26<Draakon>and you should get your answers
09:27<LordAzamath>nobody has said that getting ALL productios as a monopoly should be easy
09:28<Draakon>true even in the real life
09:28<jez>perhaps it should be possible, if you are supreme, to prevent the opposition getting anything. perhaps all the ratings combined should have to add up to 100% (ie. they represent the % of the goods you get), so it's possible to push the competitors into loss. at the moment, competitors can usually get some profit even with a measly 50% rating
09:28<jez>which they get even with occasional pickups
09:28<jez>if you have a train waiting permenantly, and work hard to give excellent service, they should get nothin
09:28<Draakon>this would be unrealistic
09:28<jez>or very little
09:29-!-Yorick|AFK is now known as Yorick
09:29*Yorick wonders how the client list would look with some nice and shiny flags in it
09:29<jez>not really; competition frequently puts competitors out of business. it sucks if you cant do that, that's the point of competition :-)
09:29<Draakon>jez: why dont you like the current raiting mecanism
09:29<jez>the mechanism is good
09:29<Draakon>so why do you complain?
09:29<jez>the problem is how that affects the amount of cargo you get
09:30<dih>jez is just of that complaining nature
09:30<jez>it should be possible i think to make a competitor that is performing OK take a loss
09:30*LordAzamath again agrees with dih
09:30<fjb>jez: You can already put oponents out of business with the current game.
09:31<jez>only if they're braindead ai opponents :-)
09:31<jez>if they're decent human opponents you pretty much cant
09:31<jez>they setup a station and do OK, they will not make a loss
09:31<jez>even if your service is perfect
09:31<fjb>jez: I did with human opponents.
09:31<LordAzamath>well.. if they are decent opponents, why should you want to not play with them?
09:31<jez>how? did you stop them getting ANY product?
09:32<LordAzamath>it is possible
09:32<fjb>When my service is perfect they get that little that they are making a huge loss.
09:32<jez>ultimately im thinking of having proper competition with a good computer opponent, hence noAI and the ability to prevent the competitor getting products
09:32<fjb>No, they still got some products, but not enough to get profit.
09:32<LordAzamath>and especially when you have two stations at one place of which ratings are both better than the other guys
09:32*dih ignore jez
09:32*jez is happy
09:32*dih enjoys the peace
09:33<jez>why are you in a chatroom if you want peace, idiot?
09:33<jez>go outside
09:33<dih>what a wonderful day this could be :-P
09:33<jez>i love people who come on IRC and say 'shut up, i want to idle in here'
09:33<LordAzamath>jez, why should you want a newAI when you only want to make them bankrupt...
09:33<Yorick>why are you in a chatroom if you want a discussion, idiot?
09:33<Yorick>go to forums
09:33<jez>LordAzamath: i want one i can compete with :-)
09:34*Yorick ignore jez
09:34<LordAzamath>then learn squirrel and write on
09:34<jez>Yorick: a chatroom is for discussion :-)
09:34*LordAzamath ignore jez
09:34*Yorick enjoys the peace
09:34*LordAzamath enjoys the peace
09:34<Draakon>ok what i have missed?
09:34<dih>the peace :-D
09:34<Yorick>you should ignore jez too
09:35<LordAzamath>hmm.. I didn't know that /me ignore jez really gets him ignored :P..
09:35<LordAzamath>or he just hasn't written
09:35<Draakon>jez: the problem is how that affects the amount of cargo you get<---- would you give some gold for transportation if there is no security on the train and it can break anytime?
09:36<jez>how what affects it?
09:36<Draakon>raitings dude, raitings!
09:36<dih>oh bother
09:36<Draakon>more raitings=more people trust you
09:36<jez>i dont understand your point about security on the train :-)
09:37<dih>[15:37] jez!noisier@* YES YES YES YES YES YES NO
09:37<Yorick>1) jez (jez!*@*) Network: All Networks Channels: "" Options: IGNORINGCHANNELLIST
09:37<Draakon>jez: you want your gold stolen on that train? ok i will steal it, and no-one can stop me
09:38<Yorick>Draakon: /ignore +jez please
09:38<LordAzamath>[16:38] Ignoring "jez"
09:38<Draakon>good idea, hes "noob" anyway
09:38<jez>Draakon: um, there isnt a mechanism for transporting your gold on the trains
09:38<jez>you just get it immediately
09:38<jez>oh you're talking about the arid climate gold mines?
09:38<LordAzamath>and if we really want to know what he said..
09:38<Yorick>finally, we could have a nice discussion :)
09:39<Ammller>well, if you don't like companies to build rivers, you shouldn't allow them to build trees, too.
09:39<dih>Yorick: flaming aint nice :-)
09:39<Draakon>ammller: they can do both
09:39<dih>draakon is old enough to know if he wants to igrnoe or not :P
09:39<LordAzamath>draakon is younger than me..
09:39<dih>yes :-P
09:39<Ammller>Draakon: how do you bild rivers as a company?
09:40<dih>LA - i could be your father
09:40<Draakon>i might be:
09:40<dih>Ammler could be mine
09:40<jez>maybe you could have a rating % and then, in brackets, a value showing what % of cargo your station gets?
09:40<dih>and Belugas could be Ammlers
09:40<LordAzamath>dih, and you are?
09:40<jez>it would be useful
09:40<Draakon>ammller: not in OpenTTD but in real life
09:40<dih>we were all premature :-D
09:40-!-helb [~helb@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:40<LordAzamath>10year old father :O
09:40-!-helb [~helb@] has joined #openttd
09:40<LordAzamath>you.. started early..
09:41<jez>and, you should be able to get your competitors' percentage down to zero if they don't provide an excellent service
09:41<jez>so they'd show something like coal 56% (0%)
09:42<Draakon>i think jez is talking to himself
09:42<dih>he talking?
09:42<jez>you 'think'?
09:42<LordAzamath>16:41:19 < Draakon> !logs
09:42<LordAzamath>16:41:46 < jez> and, you should be able to get your competitors' percentage down to zero if they don't provide an excellent service
09:42<LordAzamath>16:41:57 < Draakon> lol
09:42<LordAzamath>16:41:59 < jez> so they'd show something like coal 56% (0%)
09:42<LordAzamath>16:42:06 < Draakon> i think jez is talking to himself
09:42<LordAzamath>16:42:20 < dih> he talking?
09:42<LordAzamath>16:42:21 < jez> you 'think'?
09:42<LordAzamath>from logs
09:42<LordAzamath>[16:41] <Draakon> !logs
09:42<LordAzamath>[16:41] <SpComb> Logs:
09:42<LordAzamath>[16:41] <Draakon> lol
09:42<LordAzamath>[16:41] <Draakon> i think jez is talking to himself
09:42<LordAzamath>[16:42] <dih> he talking?
09:42<jez>looks like im talking to you through logs now!
09:42<LordAzamath>from IRC client :P
09:43<jez>thanks for the relay
09:43<Ammller>LordAzamath: use :P
09:43<jez>please keep relaying
09:43<LordAzamath>Ammller, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
09:43<Draakon>LordAzamath: that proves nothing
09:43-!-LordAzamath [~LAlord]] has left #openttd [aaaaaaaa]
09:43-!-Ammller [~Ammler@] has left #openttd [Konversation terminated!]
09:43<Yorick>pfff...he should always use paste, for code
09:44<Draakon>beware! spammer lurks there
09:44-!-LordAzamath [~LAlord]] has joined #openttd
09:44<Yorick>you should always use for code ;)
09:44-!-Diabolic-Angel [] has joined #openttd
09:44<LordAzamath>I saw it
09:44<LordAzamath>but it wasn't code
09:44<Draakon>spammers should burn in hell
09:44<Yorick>yes it was
09:45<LordAzamath>it's a quote
09:45<LordAzamath>even tt-forums have different templates for code and quotes
09:45<LordAzamath>(phpbb thing)
09:46<jez>yeah, but they talk about stuff on tt-forums
09:46<Yorick>yes, it was quoted code :)
09:46<jez>not like here, you just idle here
09:46<LordAzamath>me is no spammer :'(
09:46<LordAzamath>so you are coding intesivly now?
09:46*Yorick is
09:46<Draakon>no i dint talk you were a spammer
09:46<LordAzamath>at irc?
09:46<Yorick>I'm getting flags to the client list :)
09:47*dih ignores all but self :-P
09:47<Draakon>but the guy who posts stupid things on is
09:47<Yorick>spammerbot alert!
09:47<dih>or simply join #worldofdih
09:47*Yorick thinks dih will have fun times
09:47<LordAzamath> has been spammed for over a week now...
09:47<Yorick>TB wished the spammers good luck a week ago
09:47<Draakon>the guy is dead meat if we know who is :P
09:48<Yorick>nothing they're gonna do about it
09:48<LordAzamath>dih, what happened with #dihedrals.bitches ?
09:48<Draakon>who he is*
09:48<LordAzamath>Yorick, nothing can be done
09:48<dih>i still have the logs if that is what you mean
09:48<LordAzamath>I asked already
09:48<Draakon>that place is for hes bitches but worldofdih is hes world?
09:48<LordAzamath>isn't bitches all his world?
09:48<Yorick>we always have #? :0
09:48<Draakon>k brb
09:51<Yorick>const NetworkClientInfo *ci; (network_server.cpp:849) <-- why is it a const?
09:54<jez>i think LordAzamath is a spammer
09:55<Draakon>k im back
09:56<Draakon>LordAzamath: isn't bitches all his world?<---- whos world?
09:56<dih>does anybody here play CS:S?
09:56<jez>dih: fuck off, this isnt a CS channel
09:56<jez>we sit here and talk about NOTHING
09:56<Rubidium>Yorick: because nothing writes to that struct
09:56<Draakon>that sucks
09:57<Draakon>dih: i play something new instead
09:57<dih>that is a hide and seek mod
09:58<dih>one team is transformed into objects that are commonly found on the map
09:58<dih>then they hide
09:58<Draakon>no i dint mean the mod, i mean the general gaming
09:58<dih>ther others seek :-D
09:58<dih>css is nice
09:58<Draakon>SOF 2 is better
09:58<dih>i refuse to pay 50 euros for a game
09:58<dih>and i dont run to mummy so that she buys me a game either :-P
09:58<LordAzamath>dih.. CounterStrike:Source?
09:59<Draakon>dih: that game is cheap
09:59-!-Snurglewozzle [] has joined #openttd
10:00<Snurglewozzle>dih: fuck off, this isnt a CS channel
10:00<Snurglewozzle>ih: fuck off, this isnt a CS channel
10:00<Yorick>p->Send_uint8 (NETLANG_ANY); // Language <-- OMG
10:00<Snurglewozzle>we sit here and talk about NOTHING
10:00<dih>Snurglewoozle: you wanna run that by me again?
10:00<Yorick>now that is a dirty hack!
10:00<dih>though use a bit better langauge next time
10:00<Draakon>snurglewozzel: stfu and we talk about OpenTTS
10:00<Snurglewozzle>i'm tired of your whinging about stuff, you're getting in the way of my ability to watch this blank scren
10:00<Snurglewozzle>so shut up or i will ignore you
10:01*Yorick ignores Snurglewozzle
10:01<dih>and you think you harm any of us here?
10:01<Snurglewozzle>talk about openttd? haha, no you dont, you tell people who suggest stuff to shut up
10:01<dih>just get used to a more friendly language please
10:01<Snurglewozzle>fuck you
10:01<Draakon>you are the wierdy here
10:01<Draakon>so fuck off or i will fuck you off
10:01*Yorick enjoys peace
10:01<Snurglewozzle>like i did you your mom?
10:02-!-Snurglewozzle was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [TrueBrain]
10:02<Draakon>thank you
10:02<Yorick>TB is not even on this channel
10:03<Draakon>chanserver might have a custom name?
10:03<Yorick>any of the devs here?
10:03<Draakon>yorick:it was dorpsgek who did that
10:03<Yorick>dorpsgek is a bot
10:04<Draakon>yorick: i see 3 online currently
10:04<Yorick>the one who gave the command is in the message
10:04-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
10:04<dih>@help kick
10:04<@DorpsGek>dih: (kick [<channel>] <nick> [<reason>]) -- Kicks <nick> from <channel> for <reason>. If <reason> isn't given, uses the nick of the person making the command as the reason. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself.
10:04<dih>so if either specifies the reason TrueBrain :-)
10:05<Yorick>...if there is no reason given
10:05<Yorick>and who would specify the reason TrueBrain?
10:05<Yorick>[16:05] lol no such nick/channel
10:06-!-Yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [I would]
10:06-!-Yorick [] has joined #openttd
10:06<@peter1138>You guys need to get out more.
10:06<LordAzamath>I still can't get one thing..
10:06<Yorick>I thought only TrueBrain liked kicking me :)
10:06<jez>peter1138: that much is self-evident. anyone who sits here and tells people to shut up so they can have 'peace' is retarded.
10:07<LordAzamath>that snurglewozzle is somebody who was already here...
10:07-!-Yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Really?]
10:07<LordAzamath>and just joined with another nick
10:07-!-Yorick [] has joined #openttd
10:07<dih>this is sooo good
10:07<Yorick>I may think what I think, can't I?
10:08*Draakon thinks that dropsgek isnt a bot, hes a evil one instead!
10:08-!-Yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [You are an exception to the rule: you are not allowed to think; it is not good for peopls health]
10:08-!-Yorick [] has joined #openttd
10:08<Yorick>ah, I thought so
10:08<Draakon>poor yorick
10:08<@peter1138>Alas, poor yorick :o
10:08<LordAzamath> ... how on earth did he know that dih was talking about CS?
10:09<Yorick>if I think, I think too much, don't I?
10:09<LordAzamath>leave thinking to smarter ones and just obey, would you?
10:09<Yorick>[16:08] <@TrueBrain> poor poor Yorick :)
10:09<Yorick>[16:09] <Yorick> grr
10:09<Yorick>[16:09] * @TrueBrain hugs Yorick :)
10:09<Draakon>LordAzamath: thats a good question, dedective
10:10<Yorick>LordAzamath: I AM the smarter ones :>)
10:10<Draakon>yorick; you do want yourself get banned? :P
10:10<LordAzamath>?kick Yorick
10:12<Yorick>Draakon: I have no reason to believe they'll ban me
10:12<LordAzamath>Yorick, why not
10:12<LordAzamath>I got banned here once
10:12<Draakon>you have been booted 3 times in row
10:12<Yorick>yes, but TB likes doing that
10:12<dih>but that is just humor
10:12<dih>TB used to boot me a bunch also
10:13<Yorick>you don't get banned for thinking :P
10:13<Draakon>that will make some people kill him if they do that alot
10:13<LordAzamath>so good that I started to come IRCing when TB was less active...
10:13-!-Slowpoke [] has joined #openttd
10:13<Yorick>LA: he's not on this channel, but listening using DorpsGek, and banning when needed :_
10:14<Yorick>or when totaly not needed
10:14<dih>why would he listen throught the bot?
10:14<Yorick>well...he does
10:14<Yorick>*don't ask me*
10:15<LordAzamath>... yorick hasn't still seen that I left #?...
10:15<Yorick>I have
10:15<Yorick>I invited you a couple of times
10:15<Draakon>k back
10:15<LordAzamath>Yorick, oo
10:16<LordAzamath>I didn't see
10:16<Yorick>dev's: you _really_ need to send client lang
10:16<LordAzamath>or.. I got debug messages
10:16<+glx>Yorick: why?
10:16<@peter1138>dev's what?
10:16<Draakon>but it is possible to talk trough bot if it is not intergraded one with the network
10:17<dih>only join a server that has your local language setting or LANGAUGE_ANY
10:17<Yorick> made a client_lang, so please use it :)
10:17<dih>it's used in the udp packets :-)
10:18<LordAzamath>peter1138, dev has rights :P
10:18<dih>and correctly
10:18<Yorick>PACKET_CLIENT_JOIN contains it too
10:18<Yorick>I assumed it was used
10:19-!-yorickSatan [] has joined #openttd
10:19<yorickSatan>I am here to stop you getting PEACE, yorick. muhahahah! fuck you and your MOM!!!
10:19<Draakon>its the satan! run for you lives
10:19<Yorick>someone may now ban that crazy version of me
10:19<yorickSatan>you cant sit and watch the blank IRC window!
10:19<LordAzamath>[17:19] Yorick is Yorick
10:19-!-yorickSatan [] has quit []
10:19<Yorick>oh noes!
10:21<Yorick>I can safely ignore him :)
10:21<LordAzamath>Yorick, not when he joins with different nick
10:22<Yorick>hydrairc doesn't support hostmark ignoring :(
10:22<Yorick>I'm waiting for him to annoy me again :)
10:22<Draakon>i will kill him then :P
10:22<Yorick>I do not even believe in satanic things
10:22<Slowpoke>obiviously hydrairc sucks
10:22*Yorick is using HydraIRC v0.3.160 (4/May/2007) - Grab it from
10:22<Draakon>mirc is good
10:22<Yorick>no its not
10:23<Draakon>yes it is
10:23<dih>flame wars
10:23<Slowpoke>xchat is goodest!
10:23<Draakon>fully customizable
10:23<dih>xchat aqua here :-P
10:23<Draakon>Mac OS IRC client i mean,?
10:24<dih>os x
10:24<LordAzamath>Flammable war please now too...
10:24-!-jez [] has left #openttd []
10:24*Yorick unignores Jez
10:25<Draakon>LordAzamath> isn't bitches all his world?
10:25<Yorick><yorickSatan> you cant sit and watch the blank IRC window! <-- is that what he meant with stopping me from getting peace?
10:25<Draakon>wrong person
10:25<Draakon>16:42:55 < jez> looks like im talking to you through logs now!
10:25<@peter1138>Damn, I forgot how slow this PC is :(
10:25*Yorick thinks...thinks...can't have peace because of thinking too hard!
10:26<@peter1138>9 minutes to compile a debug build :o
10:26*LordAzamath (~LAlord] left (Ping timeout: 540s)
10:26<Draakon>16:56:33 < jez> dih: fuck off, this isnt a CS channel
10:26<Draakon>16:56:39 < jez> we sit here and talk about NOTHING
10:27<Draakon>i get it
10:27<Yorick>LordAzamath: I generally don't believe purple messages
10:27<Draakon>Snurglewozzle was jez
10:27<dih>well - just need to think he is like 12 or 13 - i treat him like a younger brother and all is fine
10:27<Draakon>only way he could know if dih talked about CS:S
10:27<Yorick>we have a coop usual suspect that is around 10
10:28<Yorick>try checking hostmask
10:28<LordAzamath>Yorick, I generally don't believi in Ping timeout 540 seconds :P
10:29<Draakon>yorick: no match :(
10:29<@peter1138>(Got a light?)
10:29<LordAzamath>dih, younger... I'm still 14 for a few days more... And he isn't like me :P
10:30<LordAzamath>peter1138 has a light
10:31<dih>Draakon: the logs :-)
10:31<Draakon>dih: what about them?
10:31<dih>[16:27] <Draakon> only way he could know if dih talked about CS:S
10:32<LordAzamath>why should one just aimlessly watch logs of #openttd?
10:32<Yorick>dih: what LA just said
10:32<Draakon>still how did Snurglewozzle knew you were talking about CS:S even when he wasn't here when you asked about it
10:32<Yorick>I've done that before
10:32<@peter1138>15:25 Draakon> Snurglewozzle was jez
10:32<Draakon>IP doesnt match
10:33<@peter1138>Neither did yorickSatan.
10:33<Draakon>Snurglewozzle couldn't be jez
10:33<LordAzamath>maybe connected to another wifi :P
10:33<Yorick>he didn't talk about CS, peter
10:33<LordAzamath>I have here several free wifi networks available
10:33<@peter1138>Sure was. Jez is known to be antisocial and probably has access to a few compromised machines...
10:34<Draakon>LordAzamath: wifi good only at bars and restaurants, not for gome
10:34<@peter1138>And damn it, it's still compiling :(
10:34<LordAzamath>LordAzamath, depends..
10:35-!-LordAzamath [~LAlord]] has left #openttd [aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa]
10:35<Draakon>why did you add your name in the beginning?
10:35-!-Draakon [] has left #openttd []
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10:35<dih>Draakon: ever heared of web clients?
10:35<dih>i.e. irc-cgi
10:35<@peter1138>I didn't think the slow 1.6GHz P4 laptop would be much faster than the 1.25GHz Athlon...
10:35<Draakon>i have, dih
10:35<dih>guess what ip they use
10:36-!-LordAzamath [~LAlord]] has joined #openttd
10:36<dih>i have a vpn server, if i connect to the vpn guess what my hostmask will be...
10:36<Draakon>a guy like jez couldn't think about that, could he? He even dint get the point of the game rating mechanism as it is same as in real life
10:37<Draakon>anyway, lets dump this, shall we? he just a guy from planet Mars
10:37<Draakon>and i for one, hate its citizens who come to Earth
10:38<LordAzamath>*cough* planet toyland because he doesn't know mars grf *cough*
10:38<Draakon>generally, jez is from another planet
10:39*LordAzamath awaits for two PMs in the forums
10:39<Draakon>what PMs?
10:39<dih>click on my signature
10:40<dih>better yet - register a domain there
10:40<Draakon>where is it?
10:41<LordAzamath>Gonozal_VIII, I forgot to say who am I waiting the PMs from
10:42<LordAzamath>one is pikkabird and other is dragonhorseboy
10:42<LordAzamath>oh.. And then of course sapphire united
10:43<Yorick>Sapphire united is evil
10:43<Draakon>Gonozal_VIII: Have you thinking about that adding some kind of patch that disables closure of industries and opening?
10:43<LordAzamath>he bumped like two old topics
10:43<Yorick>not only that
10:43<LordAzamath>and when I disagreed with that he sent me a flaming pm :P
10:43<Yorick>he is a known helper of Kirk Douglas for me :)
10:43<Gonozal_VIII>that's grf stuff draakon
10:44<Draakon>Gonozal_VIII: coding wise too
10:44<LordAzamath>which I sent him reply... He hasn't even read it..
10:44<LordAzamath>and of Kirk Douglas... Haven't had very much experience with him :P
10:44<Yorick>I have
10:45<Yorick>he revealed about his true intentions about the server he sometimes runs
10:45<LordAzamath>I have seen him posting..
10:45<Yorick>but, as he's banned on his favorite sabotaging spot...
10:45<LordAzamath>and sapphire ranted about him..
10:45<Yorick>Maarten finally found out his IP's
10:45<LordAzamath>I know
10:45<Yorick>and had to ban some 84.000 germans with him
10:45<LordAzamath>he banned the whole range
10:46<Yorick>his true intentions about the server he sometimes runs is stealing passwordsm which isn't possible anymore since beta2
10:47<LordAzamath>he stole your PW?
10:47<Yorick>he accidentally mentioned about the fact when I spoke to him
10:48<Yorick>he tried to steal passwords from every user that joined his server
10:48<Yorick>but he couldn't
10:48<Yorick>he failed to patch a server
10:48<Draakon>ok, what are you guys talking about?
10:49<LordAzamath>Draakon, about one... guy
10:49<Yorick>Sapphire United and Kirk Douglas
10:49<LordAzamath>as long as I remember sapphire was a victim of him
10:49<Draakon>one of them had hes own server
10:50<Draakon>and they posted screenshots in the same thread
10:50<LordAzamath>but sapphire sabotages too.. other guys
10:50<Draakon>dih: why did you post that?
10:51<dih>that was the sig :-P
10:51<Draakon>too bad i can build in one style
10:53<Draakon>Gonozal_VIII i meaed this by coding wise:
10:54<Draakon>stupid spellchecker
10:59-!-raimar3 [] has joined #openttd
10:59<Draakon>i hunger for..........FOOD!
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11:31<LordAzamath>@base 10 16 1161
11:31<@DorpsGek>LordAzamath: 489
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11:47<Nazcafan>I am trying out the deb version of openttd (must be 5.3) but I noticed that fonts are not antialiased. From what I found, since a certain build, it is now possible to use antialiased fonts when activating the 32bpp glitter
11:48<blathijs>Nazcafan: I think that's not yet in 0.5.
11:49<Nazcafan>blathijs: I can download the latest 0.6 deb package, right ?
11:49<Nazcafan>blathijs: or should I compile the source code with particular options ?
11:49<blathijs>Yeah, you there is a package for the latest beta
11:49<blathijs>Nazcafan: Try the precompiled version first, AFAIK that should work
11:49<blathijs>if not, I should fix the package so that it works :-)
11:50<Nazcafan>blathijs: how do I activate the 32bpp blitter ?
11:50<LordAzamath>via cfg
11:50<LordAzamath>blitter = 32bpp-optimized under [misc] tab
11:50<LordAzamath>it currently should be 8bpp-optimized
11:51<Nazcafan>LordAzamath: oh, now there is an "optimized" version for 32bpp ?
11:56<Nazcafan>LordAzamath: installed 0.6 beta, launched openttd again and quit, but could not find any line on my cfg containing blitter ... in which section should I add it ?
11:57-!-Ammller [~Ammler@] has joined #openttd
11:58<Nazcafan>the position in the section does not matter, right ? (can I just add it at the end ?)
11:59<mrfrenzy>in the future, are there any plans to increase the size of the sprites? making it possible to zoom closer and make it look better on huge screens
12:00<Ammller>the planespeed has still no influence to the running costs and income?
12:00<Nazcafan>seems to work, at least I did not get any error when launching openttd
12:02<LordAzamath>mrfrenzy, try GeekToo's patch
12:03<mrfrenzy>aah nice ;)
12:04<Ammller>hmm, is it possible to lower the income over grf too?
12:04<Ammller>like rising the running costs
12:04<Yorick>base costs mode does that
12:04<Ammller>Yorick: well, I made that one :-)
12:04<LordAzamath>Ammller, you don't ask me don't you :o
12:05<Yorick>why do you ask?
12:05<Ammller>because that grf doesn't lower the income
12:05<Ammller>it just rised the running costs
12:05<Yorick><Ammller> like rising the running costs
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12:06<Ammller>LordAzamath: if you know it, please anser :)
12:06<LordAzamath>Ammller, doesn't say anything about incomes...
12:07<LordAzamath>and I doubt there is something else what can be done...
12:07<LordAzamath>so just rise the costs and make another currency perhaps
12:07<Ammller>LordAzamath: thats maybe the only page I know well at that page :-)
12:09<Nazcafan>ha ha ! it works !!
12:09<Nazcafan>Thanks everybody
12:10<Ammller>I let 2 planes fly for a year, that costs 8k and brings 300k with normal speed
12:11<LordAzamath>Ammller, rise the running costs and change currency :P
12:11<Ammller>if you let them run with 1/4 speed, it costs the same and brings 150k
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12:13<Ammller>I think rising the running costs isn't the soloution
12:14<Ammller>(you need a factor 32 or something like that)
12:14<mrfrenzy>yeah the planes are way too good compared to reality
12:15<Ammller>mrfrenzy: I don't compare to realiz
12:15<LordAzamath>Ammller, the profit will be less
12:15<Ammller>I compare to 1/4 speed
12:16<Ammller>I think, it would be easier for devs just to recuce the income the same way
12:16<LordAzamath>in the same way as ships have different rating system?
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12:22<SmatZ>Yorick: have you ever heard about a profiler? :-P
12:22<SmatZ>ok :)
12:24<SmatZ>Yorick: do you play with enabled animation?
12:24<SmatZ>turn it off
12:24<SmatZ>does it help?
12:24<+glx>using 8bpp blitter?
12:25<Yorick>no difference
12:25<Yorick>en 8bbp blitter on
12:26<+glx>oh, lot of new industries
12:26<SmatZ>most likely caused by slow TileLoop...
12:26<Yorick>how to fix?
12:27<Yorick>are you saying that newindustries are the problem?
12:27<Yorick>why wasn't it a problem in 0.6.0-beta3 then?
12:28<SmatZ>are you really sure it didn't happen in beta3?
12:28<SmatZ>can you provide a beta3 savegame?
12:28<Yorick>in beta4, it happened, but less
12:31<SmatZ>Yorick: your savegame doesn't cause any higher CPU usage than normal 2048x2048 game without any newgrfs for me
12:31<Yorick>without any newgrfs
12:31<Yorick>the save is using pbi
12:32<SmatZ>I say, the newgrfs used do nto have significant effect on the game speed for me
12:32<Yorick>in beta3, the cpu use is 6%, in 4, it is 20%, and in 5, it is 40%
12:32<Yorick>the same save
12:33<SmatZ>you didn't provide beta3 compatible savegame, so I can't reproduce it...
12:33<SmatZ>I got ~30%
12:33<Yorick>I'm doing
12:33<Yorick>isn't that too much
12:33<+glx>not for a big map
12:34<Yorick>but the same save uses 6% on beta3
12:34<SmatZ>you can have more powerfull CPU or a version compiled with better optimisation settings
12:34<Yorick>I compiled both with the same compiler
12:34<Yorick>the beta4 version is from
12:35<Ammller>betas from openttd might have debug mode enabled?
12:35<Yorick>trying in beta5 from, it is the same cpu use
12:35<+glx>only asserts
12:36<Yorick>still 40%
12:36<+glx>try the win9x version
12:36<+glx>asserts are disabled in it
12:37<Yorick>I'll try
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12:47<SmatZ>trunk: 23% beta5: 24% beta4: 24% beta3: 17%
12:47<SmatZ>with the same compiler settings
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12:48<Yorick>isn't that far too much?
12:56<Yorick>what is client_lang currently used for?
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13:26<SmatZ>Yorick|AFK: you bug will be fixed soon :)
13:27<dih>yorick is a bug?
13:27<Vikthor>Yorick|AFK is a bug?
13:32<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r12350 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1836](r11947): do not try ti flood water tile (performance increase)
13:33<SmatZ>not anymore :)
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13:39-!-Yorick|AFK is now known as Yorick
13:39<Yorick>thanks glx!
13:40<+glx>well SmatZ did the fix, I just searched the cause :)
13:41<Yorick>!openttd commit 11947
13:41<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Commit by frosch :: r11947 /trunk/src (6 files) (2008-01-22 17:48:08 UTC)
13:41<@DorpsGek>Yorick: -Feature: Make use of new sprites added by Action5 type 0D.
13:41<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Tiles which only consist of shore do not flood anymore, instead they get removed if they are no longer connected to flooding water.
13:41<Yorick>oh, that one
13:41<ln->countries yet?
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13:42<Yorick>it appears that the language isn't even sent to the server
13:43<Yorick>12350 doesn't affect any behavior, does it?
13:43<Yorick>except cpu use
13:44<SmatZ>it shouldn't affect anything :)
13:44<Yorick>so I can patch a server with it :)
13:45*Yorick does so and hopes that performance issue is fixed
13:45<SmatZ>if you get many desyncs, then there is something wrong with the patch :-P
13:49<Yorick>I found out that diagonal slopes try to get flooded aswell(the ones that are 1 tile above the half-water-tiles, 1 tile north to)(disabling height-limit)
13:50<SmatZ>can you give an example?
13:51<Yorick>would ascci art do?
13:52<SmatZ>who knows?
13:54<Yorick>t . t . t . t . t . t . t . t=tries to get flooded
13:54<Yorick>h f h f h f h f h f h f h f=full shore tile, h=half shore, half water
13:54<Yorick> w w w w w w w w=water
13:54<ln->doesn't sound like countries.
13:54<Yorick>how do you mean, kn?
13:55<SmatZ>Yorick: are you sure?
13:55-!-Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
13:55<Yorick>when disabling height flooding limits
13:55<SmatZ>why are you talking about "disabling height flooding limits"?
13:56<Yorick>because its mee
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13:57<Yorick>commenting out line 1041
13:57<SmatZ>well.. do not comment it out then
13:57<Yorick>that means it tries to flood it
13:58<+glx>I didn't touch this line
13:58<Yorick>it was there before
13:59<Yorick>but, if you try to do that, it shows pretty strange behavior that was introduced in r11947
13:59<SmatZ>Yorick: maybe that is the reason why that line is there :-P
13:59<Yorick>I don\ n
13:59<SmatZ>if you removed one line from any patch in OTTD
13:59<Yorick>I do not like that line
13:59<SmatZ>then it would behave really strange
14:00<SmatZ>after almost every patch
14:00<SmatZ>so I don't get your point :)
14:01<Yorick>that patch appears to have solved my problem
14:01<SmatZ>ah... but the r12350 patch solves it and doesn't introduce any new bugs :)
14:02<Yorick>it took the cpu use from 40% to 1%
14:06<Yorick>you should rerelease beta5 with this patch, because it doesn't involve any MP incompatibilities
14:06<Yorick>and gives dramatic cpu improvements
14:09<SmatZ>only on maps with a lot of water
14:10<@peter1138>1%? So better then before...
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14:12<Yorick>loads of betterness!
14:13<ln->how many Bjarnis are required to guarantee a 24/7 Bjarni service?
14:13<SmatZ>roughly 40
14:13<SmatZ>maybe even more
14:15-!-Draakon [] has joined #openttd
14:16<SmatZ>hello Draakon
14:16<ln->hello chatzilla
14:17-!-LordAzamath [~LAlord]] has left #openttd []
14:18<Draakon>hmm, feature freeze in trunk?
14:22-!-stillunk1own [] has joined #openttd
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14:23<ln->how about countries?
14:23<Yorick>WHAT COUNTRIES?
14:24<ln->Yorick: MY POINT EXACTLY.
14:24<Yorick>tell me what do you mean by "countries"?
14:25<ln->3. The territory or land of a nation; usually an independent state, or a region once independent and still distinct in race, language, institutions, or historical memories, as England, Scotland, and Ireland, in the United Kingdom, etc. [Oxford English Dictionary]
14:26<Draakon>we know what it is but what countries and where?
14:26<ln->in OpenTTD, of course. this is #openttd.
14:27<Yorick>Countries in openttd.
14:27<Draakon>not good idea
14:27<Yorick>How about being more descriptive?
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14:27<Draakon>the game is about transportation, not politics
14:28<ln->who said anything about politics.
14:28<Draakon>you did
14:28<ln->no, it was you.
14:29<Draakon>if you add countries, you add politics too
14:29<ln->21:27 < Draakon> the game is about transportation, not politics
14:29<ln->not true
14:30<Draakon>this sentance looks like that you said it first
14:30<Yorick><ln-> how about countries?
14:30<Draakon>no politics means no countries
14:31<ln->i didn't say anything about politics, though. you made that up.
14:31<Draakon>you dont get it
14:31<Yorick>this is about openttd, not about countries
14:31<ln->no politics means no transportation, yet still we have a nice transportation game by chris sawyer.
14:31<ln->without politics.
14:32<Draakon>transportation doesn't need politics
14:32<ln->of course it does.
14:33<ln->it does not work very well in anarchy.
14:33<Draakon>ok, if we chop some wood down in forest, load it and then deliver it to our home, is that transportation?
14:34<ln->not very commercial transport.
14:36<Draakon>it can be and it can not be, but you don't need politics for that transportation which means you don't need politics for transportation
14:37<ln->not for countries either.
14:38<Draakon>you need because you need to vote for president, prime ministers and so on, and you need politics to make rules for voteing
14:39<ln->e.g. sweden and denmark don't have a president, yet still they are countries.
14:39<Draakon>who they have instead presidents?
14:40-!-Aerandir [] has joined #openttd
14:40<ln->you did?
14:40<Draakon>besides, in every country it has laws and rules which the citizens must follow, no-one can make them or edit them with out politics
14:41<ln->of course someone can, haven't you heard of dictators?
14:42<Draakon>In political geography and international politics, a country is a political division of a geographical entity, a sovereign territory, most commonly associated with the notions of state or nation and government.
14:42<Draakon>read it and you see that your wrong
14:43<ln->my wrong is what?
14:44<Draakon>that you dont need politics for countries
14:44<ln->btw, i was not suggesting declaring a new independent country in real life, but rather having countries in a computer game.
14:44<Draakon>not in OpenTTD
14:45<ln->yes in OpenTTD
14:45<Draakon>its about transportation
14:45<Draakon>not some fancy countries and economy bullshit
14:45<Draakon>so no countries in OpenTTD!
14:46<ln->although actually it is about ecomony, too.
14:46<ln->but there will be no additional economy bullshit.
14:46<Draakon>there will
14:46<ln->there will not
14:47-!-oh [] has joined #openttd
14:47<oh>long time no see ^^
14:47<Draakon>ok, the game might be have little economy needed(industry and city vise only) but countries will add more of it which make the game itself then bullshit
14:47<Yorick>long time no see oh_
14:48<oh>I'm contemplating firing up my own openttd server complete with a fascist admin regime
14:49<ln->Draakon: how do you know before trying?
14:49<Draakon>In-: you should also read this
14:49<oh>not a game without land-flatteners, company wreckers, blockers or just plain annoying people anymore :S
14:49<Draakon>In-: because im not stupit
14:49<ln->Draakon: who is In-?
14:51<ln->Draakon: you don't even know what kind of countries i'm proposing.
14:51<oh>what are you two talkinga bout?
14:51<Draakon>ln-: still whole wide no!
14:51<Yorick>ln- is talking about countries
14:51<oh>anyone happen to have a compiled nightly compatible with openttdcoop and leopard btw?
14:52<Draakon>leopard? whats that?
14:52<oh>os X
14:53<oh>something broke with nightlies and leopard, and I can't for the life of me get the bloody thing compiled and working :S
14:53<Draakon>download the libaries then
14:53<ln->Draakon: the idea of introducing countries to OpenTTD has been labeled as "interesting" by Celestar.
14:53<oh>it seems xorg is the main breaking point :S
14:53<Yorick>and Celestar is not here anymore
14:53<ln->(argumentum ad auctoritatem)
14:54<ln->Yorick: so?
14:54<Yorick>goodluck convincing other dev;s
14:54<Draakon>ln-: still its about transportation, not goverments, countries and this kind of shit
14:55<ln->Draakon: when did you become the one to decide about the OTTD development roadmap?
14:55<Draakon>i dont but what i am saying its not fitting the game
14:56<ln->it completely fits the game.
14:56<Yorick>ln-, go making a patch if you think so
14:56<oh>snap out of it you two :S
14:56<Yorick>yes you should
14:56<ln->oh: we're having a conversation.
14:57<oh>a productive one aswell I see
14:57<Yorick>no-yes-heh-no-yes-snap out of it you two!-no-yes-no-:p
14:58<Yorick>another bot!
14:59*Yorick waits for no
14:59<Draakon>why do you think im bot?
14:59<Yorick>because you say no after everything
14:59<ln->Draakon: use the apostrophe properly.
14:59<Draakon>yorick: so?
15:00<Draakon>your the bot instead
15:00<Draakon>ln-: grammacaster *sigh*
15:01<ln->using the apostrophe is more like on the level of orthography.
15:02<Draakon>this here is a irc chat, not book of science
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15:02<ln->Draakon: which doesn't mean people should not pay any attention to their text.
15:03<ln->Draakon: it's an insult towards the reader.
15:04<Draakon>ln-: for you yes, rest, not, but orthography doesnt need so much attention in irc channell
15:05*Draakon ignores ln- now
15:05<Yorick>he hasn't sayed anything
15:05<oh>it's bad practice to drop proper writing in any medium
15:05<ln->Draakon: it's impolite to write badly and assume the 200 readers spend time trying to figure out what you were saying.
15:06<ln->95 people read only the logs.
15:07<Draakon>ln-: In science book, you write the way that you need to write, in IRC, it doesnt matter so much, except l337 language
15:07<oh>now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to break my tv into half a million pieces
15:07<Draakon>oh: why?
15:07<oh>american idol on three channels.
15:07<oh>it needs to stop. now.
15:07<Draakon>ban it from your network
15:07<+glx>Yorick: since when to say is not irregular?
15:07<oh>breaking my tv is more satisfying
15:08<ln->Draakon: så den spelar ingen roll om man skriver t.ex på svenska?
15:08<Draakon>ln-; This is English channel
15:08-!-Zavior [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:08<Draakon>not any other
15:09<oh>and yet you propose english grammar be dropped because this is not a channel devoted to a scientific subject :P
15:09<ln->Draakon: in IRC, it [the language] doesn't matter so much, except l337 language.
15:10<ln->Draakon: and clearly that wasn't l337 language, was it?
15:10<ln->oh: exactly.
15:10<Draakon>you want to see what l337 aka Leet language is?
15:10<ln->definitely not.
15:10*Yorick ignores Draakon
15:11*Yorick enjoys peace
15:11<Draakon>oh: no i dint but people who use IRC channels understand everyway of speaking, except leet language
15:11<Yorick>they don't understand chinese
15:11<+glx>please use your browser bookmarks
15:12<oh>you can't expect random person X to understand a defunct version of a language
15:12<Draakon>because they are not chineese and this is english channel where it is forbidden anyway
15:12<ln->Draakon: yet you didn't understand the swedish everyway of speaking?
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15:13<ln->Draakon: and you think anything that is written in "english" (in someone's opinion of english) is understandable to everyone?
15:13<oh>there are thousands of examples of how subtle grammatical variations can vastly alter the message you put across
15:13<oh>which is why precision is vital to any form of written communication
15:13<oh>more so in a medium such as IRC than discussion among scholars, actually
15:14-!-Draakon [] has quit [Quit: it is useless to fight whit a idiot and run with a calf]
15:14<oh>interesting argumentation :S
15:15<Yorick>an idiot
15:16<oh>excuse me for not knowing how to add bold text ;>
15:16<Yorick>try ctrl-b to switch between normal and bold
15:17<oh>no luck
15:17<Yorick>you don't see it when typing
15:17<oh>my client isnt exactly the most advanced
15:18<oh>it does have a button for easy access to smilies though!
15:18<oh>not to mention encoding, since utf-8 is evil
15:18<ln->glx: perhaps !logs could be added to the list of DorpsGek's kick words?
15:19<oh>I think "oh" should be added aswell
15:19<oh>just to see how that'd affect yoricks daily irc life
15:20<+glx>ln-: well !logs is not really a problem, but once you used it, you should bookmark the url
15:21<ln->glx: yeah.. well, allowed once per year per nick? :)
15:22<Yorick>per tick?
15:22<Yorick>74 times a-day?
15:22<ln->i've heard of d-day, but not a-day.
15:22<+glx>and DorpsGek's kick words are in my client only
15:22<ln->never head of a'day either.
15:22<Yorick>thats why it doesn't work when glx is away
15:23<+glx>when I'm not online
15:24<Yorick>have to go now
15:24-!-Yorick [] has quit [Quit: Always remember you're unique. Your quit message doesn't undergo the same faith.]
15:27<ln->something odd happened today, i woke up at about 0750, an hour before my alarm clock.
15:27<ln->and now i feel like i could go sleep, which is also very odd at this time.
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15:37-!-oh [] has quit [Quit: oh]
15:45<Slowpoke>propably you are pregnant
16:00-!-Purno [] has quit [Quit: Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.]
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16:18<@peter1138>Hmm, so...
16:18<@peter1138>I wish my alarm clock was set to 08:50...
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16:29<Roujin>@seen ammler
16:29<@DorpsGek>Roujin: ammler was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 7 hours, 59 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <Ammler> but that would be amazing:
16:30<Roujin>one day ago? oO
16:30<Roujin>something is wrong here
16:30<Ammler>the bot is case sensitiv :-)
16:31<Roujin>@seen Ammler
16:31<@DorpsGek>Roujin: Ammler was last seen in #openttd 9 seconds ago: <Ammler> the bot is case sensitiv :-)
16:31<Roujin>oh, okay...
16:31<Roujin>well i made the patch
16:31<Roujin>without gui changes atm
16:32<Roujin>just holding ctrl while building canal
16:32<Ammler>well, that sounds ok, too
16:32<Ammler>do you know, which developer included the river patch?
16:32<Roujin>not tested in multiplayer yet.. but should work
16:33<Ammler>I guess, its a fine alternative until there is livery_river is impelmented
16:34<Ammler>peter1138: do you mind to include a nice addon to rivers?
16:34<Roujin>@commit 11926
16:34<@DorpsGek>Roujin: Commit by peter1138 :: r11926 /trunk/src (7 files in 2 dirs) (2008-01-19 17:00:54 UTC)
16:34<@DorpsGek>Roujin: -Feature: Rivers. Graphics must be provided by NewGRF else rivers are drawn as canals. Rivers can currently only be placed with-in the scenario editor.
16:34<Ammler>possibility to build rivers in playing mode
16:35<Roujin>i have to go afk for a bit.. will give the patch to you later ammler...
16:36<Ammler>well, I really would like it
16:36<Ammler>at least we need it at #openttdcoop memberzone
16:38<Ammler>thanks very much Roujin
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16:40<@peter1138>Not really.
16:40<@peter1138>Rivers deserve better than some company just placing them in-game.
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16:54<Ammler>peter1138: its the same with trees
16:55<Ammler>then you should also not allow to place trees
16:55<Ammler>rivers should not only be allowed, they should also rise the rating like trees
16:55<Ammler>at least its in our country
17:04<Ammler>peter1138: rivers is quite useless for MP mode as it is now
17:07<Ammler>[22:40] <peter1138> Rivers deserve better than some company just placing them in-game. <-- well, I know, you hate patch switches, so this is also no option :(
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17:12<Ammller>and our goverment would never allow a company do build canals, but something like rivers are welcome
17:12<XeryusTC>Ammller: a river is a natural thing that comes from melt/rain water
17:12<XeryusTC>trees can be planted by humans
17:12<XeryusTC>but rivers cannot
17:13<Ammller>well, 20 years ago, you are right
17:13<Ammller>but time has changed, now, be bulldoze canals and build rivers
17:14<XeryusTC>all man made water things are called canals
17:16<Ammller>well, not in my language/country
17:17<Ammller>if you can bulldoze a whole mountain
17:17<Ammller>why not allow to build a small nice river?
17:18<mrfrenzy>I agree, you can't build a river
17:18<XeryusTC>because it is a canal if it is made by man
17:18<mrfrenzy>rivers are made by water eroding the land
17:19<XeryusTC>A river is a natural waterway that transports water through a landscape from higher to lower elevations. A river is a component of the water cycle. The water within a river is generally collected from precipitation through surface runoff, groundwater recharge (as seen at baseflow conditions / during periods of lack of precipitation) and release of stored water in natural reservoirs, such as a glacier.
17:19<XeryusTC>from wikipedia
17:19<XeryusTC>note the first sentence
17:20<mrfrenzy>thing is, since there is no rain in openttd, there can never be rivers ;)
17:20<XeryusTC>rivers can also come from meltwater from mountains
17:20<XeryusTC>although the snow/ice has to be supplied too somehow
17:21<Ammller>well, fact is that we don't have maps with rivers
17:21<Ammller>so it should be able to build them self
17:21<mrfrenzy>no, but there are maps with canals
17:21<mrfrenzy>you can't build a river in openttd, not even in the scenario editor
17:21<mrfrenzy>since it won't let there be water on high ground
17:21<XeryusTC>you can in the nightlies
17:22<mrfrenzy>there is only the sea which seeps through some places
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17:22<mrfrenzy>o rly?
17:22<XeryusTC>@commit 11926
17:22<@DorpsGek>XeryusTC: Commit by peter1138 :: r11926 /trunk/src (7 files in 2 dirs) (2008-01-19 17:00:54 UTC)
17:22<@DorpsGek>XeryusTC: -Feature: Rivers. Graphics must be provided by NewGRF else rivers are drawn as canals. Rivers can currently only be placed with-in the scenario editor.
17:22<XeryusTC>they're somewhat the same as canals, but you cannot place them yourself
17:22<XeryusTC>have different graphics
17:22<XeryusTC>but there are barely scenarios with rivers :(
17:23<Ammller>you need to switch from scenario to play mode all the time
17:23<Ammller>thats possible in SP but really hard in MP
17:23<XeryusTC>RichK had an idea about making rivers feel "alive"
17:23<mrfrenzy>where in the scenario editor do you find that?
17:23<mrfrenzy>I can only make canals, and only on flat ground
17:23<XeryusTC>where rivers take account of flow
17:23<Ammller>mrfrenzy: have you nightly instaled?
17:23<XeryusTC>so they actually change course when you terraform in their area
17:24<Ammller>check in scenario mode
17:24<mrfrenzy>yes I'm there
17:24<Ammller>its just right of canals
17:24<mrfrenzy>there is rocks
17:24<mrfrenzy>aah you mean that
17:24<mrfrenzy>"place rivers"
17:24<Ammller>well, I don't know betas
17:25<mrfrenzy>I probably found a bug
17:25<mrfrenzy>until I drew a canal anywhere on the map, the river tool only worked on flat ground
17:25<Ammller>[23:23] <XeryusTC> so they actually change course when you terraform in their area <-- we need something to bridge the time to that
17:26<XeryusTC>Ammller: flow per day :P
17:26<mrfrenzy>well now sleep ;)
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17:42<Ammller>well we will see, if the patch is out, if I am really the onlyone looking for such a feature
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18:34<jez>Don't suppose there are any C++ gurus in here? :-)
18:34<jez>I'm having trouble compiling the copy/paste patch
18:35<fjb>:-) :-) :-P
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19:51*peter1138 mumbles as Exchange grinds to a half.
19:51<@peter1138>Er, a halt.
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20:09<Ammller>hmm, client desyncs if I try to build rivers on a server which is not patched :(
20:10<SmatZ>OTTD is protected against hacked clients
20:10<Ammller>if (p2 != 0 && _game_mode != GM_EDITOR) return CMD_ERROR; <-- I feat, that line is quilty
20:11<Ammller>SmatZ: well, devs, said, they don't include things, because it uses more cpu usage
20:13<SmatZ>Ammller: like building of rivers is disabled in an active game because it would use more CPU?
20:13<Ammller>yeah, that must be the reason, isn't?
20:13<SmatZ>I think it is a bit unrealistic to "build" river (I would even disable bulldozing it)
20:14<SmatZ>one can use canals / locks instead
20:14<Ammller>well, that depense only of people
20:14<Ammller>of goverment
20:15<Ammller>in our country is almost impossible to build canals, today
20:15<Ammller>its other way you bulldoze canals and build rivers, but I know, you see it other way
20:15<+glx>but you can build rivers?
20:16<Ammller>maybe you can just set a mulitplicator for rivers of 10 or so?
20:17<Ammller>could you at least remove that "hacker" prevention?
20:18<Ammller>well, maybe after release of 0.6.0 :-)
20:19<SmatZ>I think there can be changes regarding lakes/rivers/canals after 0.6.0, yes :)
20:19<SmatZ>but sure not now
20:19<Ammller>oh, of course, I see companies planting trees all the time here...
20:20<SmatZ>planting a tree is something different that routing a water source to your place
20:20<Ammller>we call it "Renaturalisieren"
20:20<Ammller>don't know a english word for that
20:21<SmatZ>there has to be water source somewhere...
20:21<SmatZ>it is in the hands of "god", the creator of scenario
20:22<Ammller>well, what happen with snow?
20:22<SmatZ>but during the game, it would be strange if players could start a river anywhere in the map
20:22-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:22<SmatZ>snow sublimates :-P
20:22<Ammller>well, think about MP mode
20:22-!-Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
20:23<Ammller>in sp mode you can quickly switch to scenario editor and play god
20:23<Ammller>but its even harder to do that in MP mode
20:23<dih>what nees restricting?
20:23<Ammller>dih: I alredy changed
20:23<dih>ah - ok
20:24<Ammller>well, is it possible to restrict anonymous access to revsions less then rX?
20:24<dih>revisions - no
20:24<dih>paths - yes
20:24<dih>perhaps with svn 1.5
20:24<Ammller>I changed anonymous access to tags only
20:25<dih>why is that?
20:25<Ammller>because you shouldn't checkout a old grf
20:25<dih>why not?
20:26<Ammller>thats why GRFs authors don't like if you host their GRFs
20:26<dih>if i have access to tags i have access to older revisions
20:26<Ammller>they like to have only newest releases around...
20:26<Ammller>well, we have to discuss it further
20:26-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:26<Ammller>It might need to restrict it for old tags too later
20:27<dih>well - in worse case tags will not be ok then either
20:27<dih>in all honesty
20:27<Ammller>of course, the newest one
20:27<dih>i am not entierly sure they can restrict usage of their grf's like that
20:28<Ammller>well, its not question if the can do it, they like to do it
20:28<Ammller>thats enough, we have to respect that
20:28<dih>but then they like to see their grfs spread also
20:28<SmatZ>can GRF author forbid using his GRF in openttdcoop GRF pack? if so, then it is better not to make him upset :)
20:28<dih>you could see it both ways
20:29<SmatZ>dih: true
20:29<dih>i.e. openttdcoop on the more desperate side
20:29<dih>in need of grfs
20:29<dih>or the auther in need of having people using his/her/its grfs
20:29<dih>and thus in need of openttdcoop's grfpack
20:29<SmatZ>it is about "supply and demand" of grfs :)
20:30<dih>as a source of making his/her/its work more popular
20:30<dih>it would have to be a really really good one
20:30<Ammller>well, its not that we deleted old grfs
20:30<dih>to make me desperate ^^
20:30<dih>it's in svn
20:30<dih>we cannot delete
20:30<Ammller>well, you can...
20:30<dih>you cannot
20:31<dih>you can break the database
20:31<dih>but you cannot decently remove a file from svn
20:31<Ammller>hmm, there is something like a clean repo
20:31<Ammller>which you can let them remove deleted files older then something, not?
20:32<Ammller>I thought, I did read that somewhere
20:32<Fujitsu>dih: You can dump it, manually remove any trace of the file, then reimport it, which is properly removing it, albeit an unnoticeable hack.
20:32-!-Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has quit [Quit: Zr40]
20:33<Ammller>Fujitsu: I guess, there is a "simple" svn command for doing that
20:33<Fujitsu>I don't know of one.
20:33<Fujitsu>I doubt they'd want to make it easy, as it is very evil.
20:34<+glx>the goal of a version control system is to keep trace of all changes
20:34-!-dih [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:35<Fujitsu>If you don't want to keep track of changes to the GRFs, what were they doing in a VCS in the first place?
20:35<Ammller>who said that?
20:36<Fujitsu>You're wanting to remove access to old versions, aren't you?
20:36<Ammller>access for anonymous
20:36-!-Zr40 [~zr40@2001:960:786:0:21b:63ff:fe9e:ab24] has joined #openttd
20:36<Ammller>I still need old revisions for making update packs
20:36<Fujitsu>Whatever happened to being open?
20:36-!-Gonozal_VIII [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:38<Ammller>Fujitsu: some GRF Authors don't like it, if you use old grfs with bugs or glitches or whatever
20:38<Fujitsu>I'd say that's their problem...
20:39-!-dih [] has joined #openttd
20:39<Ammller>no, I don't like to annoy them
20:39<dih>TrueBrain and i just setup a CS:S server and had some very funny games
20:39<Fujitsu>So we need non-free GRFs to play the most open multiplayer game of an open source game?
20:40<dih>most open?
20:40<dih>and we do not net non-free grfs atm?
20:40<Ammller>well, the most GRFs arei indeed not GPL'd
20:40<dih>what are they?
20:40<Fujitsu>I'd say the no old versions restriction is a nasty restriction on distribution.
20:41<Ammller>they are just hmm, they are just
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20:41<Ammller>yes, they are
20:41<Ammller>even not
20:41<dih>'eben nicht'
20:41<Ammller>I know the usset and jpset, which are
20:41<dih>does not really translate that way ^^
20:42<dih>that is quite imporant
20:42<Ammller>you can see it in GRF_Table at our page, which are
20:43<Ammller>most GRFs are more closed then the original grfs :P
20:43<Ammller>(no, it isn't that bad)
20:44<dih>why do we support that?
20:44<Fujitsu>I am wondering the same.
20:45<dih>for another thing: are there no loopholes?
20:45<Ammller>well, you won't use dbsetxl?
20:45<dih>worst case scenario
20:45<dih>but we can make pressure
20:45<Ammller>well, try it
20:46<dih>i.e. either grfpack, or restricted license
20:46<dih>authors choice
20:46<Ammller>force all to make their GRFs opensource
20:46<dih>force all to not restrict in a way that limits our distribution
20:46<Ammller>nobody does that...
20:47<dih>then whats wrong with old versions?
20:47<Ammller>I know only one GRF, which I we not allowed to distribute
20:47<dih>which one?
20:47<Ammller>Oskars Bridge
20:47-!-Dominik [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:47<Ammller>well, he might have more grfs...
20:47<Diabolic-Angel>Thats quite a sad tendency..
20:48<dih>so all other grf's have no issues with us having old versions?
20:48<dih>gtf athors rather
20:48<Ammller>of couse, I guess, everyone would
20:49<dih>then we dont need to fobit anon access to trunk/ of the grfpack
20:49<Ammller>all have no problems with distributing as long as we only distribute the current one, which would also be downloadalbe from their pages
20:49<dih>that is what i just asked about
20:50<dih>that is what limits the distribution
20:50<Ammller>but why should you need the possibitly to download a old version of a grf?
20:50<dih>save games?
20:50<Ammller>what does that help us?
20:50<Ammller>no the grfs are backwards compatible, mostly
20:50<Fujitsu>Ammller: Why should you need to modify OpenTTD?
20:50<dih>our old published save games
20:50<Fujitsu>Should modification be banned?
20:51<Ammller>go to the devs and complain about a bug in openttd 0.4.8
20:51<Fujitsu>Ammller: YOu suggest that because you shouldn't need to download old versions of a GRF, you shouldn't be able to.
20:52*SmatZ thinks about "no copy&paste in openttdcoop games" restriction... everyone has restrictions...
20:52<Ammller>SmatZ: we have much more
20:52<dih>that is clearly against the usage of pasting junktions
20:52<Ammller>every 2. tile a signal
20:52<dih>those are building guide lines
20:53<dih>dont mix the style of building with the distribution of software
20:53<dih>2 diff things
20:54<Ammller>dih: try to download suse 5.0
20:54<dih>i have it at home
20:54<Ammller>or go to a shop to buy windows 3.1
20:55<Ammller>or soon windows xp
20:55<Gonozal_VIII>xp is better than vista
20:55<Fujitsu>And *nobody* *anywhere* has complained that Windows XP is vanishing. Of course not.
20:55<SmatZ>well... you can buy "used" windows
20:55<dih>buying software from a reseller aint = buying software
20:56<Ammller>there are many reasons not to distribute old versions
20:56<Ammller>most important is to reduce support because of using it
20:56<dih>being available in svn does not mean supported
20:57<Ammller>well, as I said, I didn't delete it
20:58<dih>well - you cannot ^^
20:58<Fujitsu>You just effectively tried to delete it.
20:59<Ammller>SmatZ: do you know, how openttd does store the svn repo?
20:59<Ammller>in fs or db?
20:59<dih>Ammller: i would advise not mucking around in either of svn repository types
21:00<SmatZ>Ammller: I have no clue
21:00<Ammller>I was just wondering
21:01<Ammller>I don't have that much faith in dbs... :-)
21:01<SmatZ>neither do I :)
21:02<dih>well - berkely - no
21:02<SmatZ>I would guess db would be slower
21:02<dih>fsfs is pretty good
21:02<SmatZ>but... who knows (I don't)
21:02<dih>there is a comparison on the svn book
21:02<Ammller>but we use berkley, don't we?
21:04<dih>default setting
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21:06<Ammller>I guess, I had that in mind, as I thought about "cleaning": Purging unused Berkeley DB logfiles
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21:08<Fujitsu>The logs are DB binary logs. They very probably don't store the Subversion history.
21:08<dih>if it were that simple
21:09<dih>deleting revisions files and whatnot
21:09<dih>from a svn repository
21:09<dih>theey probably would have implemented it
21:09<dih>dont you think?
21:09<Fujitsu>Why would they implement it?
21:09<Fujitsu>It defies the point of any VCS.
21:09<Ammller>for saving space?
21:10<Fujitsu>You want to cull history just to save space? That's a very restricted use case.
21:10<Ammller>after 10000 revision, you don't need every single revsion below 1000 anymore
21:10<Fujitsu>Why not?
21:11<dih>read their docs
21:11<Fujitsu>I saw a fix for r3xxx a few days ago.
21:11<dih>you will be given at least one scenario where it is of use
21:11<SmatZ>sure you need with OTTD
21:12<SmatZ>@commit 12166
21:12<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by smatz :: r12166 /trunk/src (4 files) (2008-02-17 12:21:05 UTC)
21:12<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: -Fix [FS#337]: when drag&drop mode was cancelled by keyboard input, depot/group window wasn't updated (original patch by GrimRC)
21:12-!-fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:13<Ammller>same as with backups, after sometime you keep only monthly or yearly backups
21:14<SmatZ>@commit 12097
21:14<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by glx :: r12097 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2008-02-10 05:21:08 UTC)
21:14<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: -Fix (r654, r1525): loading old, pre savegame version 2, savegames.
21:14<SmatZ>fixing two bugs in revisions older than 10000 :)
21:14<Ammller>@commit 654
21:14<@DorpsGek>Ammller: Commit by tron :: r654 /trunk (13 files) (2004-11-17 08:52:47 UTC)
21:14<@DorpsGek>Ammller: Hopefully complete support for randomized variational spritegroups (i.e. the cars transporter in DBSetXL gets different cars each time) (pasky)
21:15<Gonozal_VIII>action 2 for action a?
21:15<Ammller>and why was it helpful to keep that revision?
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21:15<SmatZ>to see what else was changed in that revision
21:15<Fujitsu>Ammller: The same reason you have it for any other revision.
21:15<Ammller>Fujitsu: which is?
21:16<SmatZ>@commit 11982
21:16<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by frosch :: r11982 trunk/src/oldloader.cpp (2008-01-25 13:54:27 UTC)
21:16<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: -Revert (r8738): Now we have shores in corners. No need to remove them from TTDP games.
21:16<dih>if you could just dump old data like that to save space, suggest to the devs to make a new svn repo starting at r10000 :-D
21:16<SmatZ>reverting 3000 old revision
21:16<Ammller>SmatZ: how did you revert
21:16<Fujitsu>Ammller: So I can see why some change was introduced. So I can see who introduced it. So I can see what it was changed from.
21:17<Fujitsu>So I can revert to the revision before and see that it was, in fact, that revision that blew up the world.
21:17<Ammller>well, its another thing when you work with code
21:17<SmatZ>Ammller: I don't know, maybe taking the diff and applying it with -N or so...
21:17<+glx>svn merge -c -rev
21:17<Ammller>not merge?
21:18<Ammller>merge doesn't work with files
21:18*SmatZ has no skills whatsoever
21:18<+glx>Ammller: how do you think we sync branches?
21:19<SmatZ>people driving on the left road side, scary :-/
21:19<Fujitsu>SmatZ: Most sane countries do that, I'm afraid.
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21:19<Ammller>well, I don't think its taht easy :)
21:19<dih>read the svn book ^^
21:20-!-Netsplit <-> quits: +michi_cc
21:20<+glx>svn merge svn:// -r rev:HEAD
21:20<+glx>very easy
21:20<Sacro>SmatZ: we do drive on the left here
21:21<+glx>the right side is the right side :)
21:21<Ammller>new files will be added, old one deleted and modified modified?
21:21<+glx>you can even get conflicts to resolve
21:21<Ammller>hmm, I will try it again, but it didn't work
21:22<Ammller>and I am sure, I tried it that way
21:22<Ammller>because you told me
21:23<Ammller>I had files lilke merge.before and .after or soemthing like that
21:23<+glx>looks like a conflict
21:24<Ammller>I made a export then
21:26<dih>yes - that is a conflict
21:26<dih>Ammller: if in doubt, read the svn book
21:26<dih>like everybody else does ;D
21:26<Ammller>that will happen with binaries everytime?
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21:28<dih>conflicts mainly occure when e.g. you have rev 1 - modify file, Osai co's rev 1 modifies same file - ci to rev 2 and you then try to ci :-)
21:28<dih>i.e. svn does not know what to (correctly) do
21:29<Ammller>well I reverted a version 10 revsions back
21:29<dih>and only conflicts if lines changed touch the lines you have changed
21:29<dih>bed time
21:30<Ammller>as far as I know, its not possible with svn
21:30<Ammller>you would need git then or something like that
21:32<Ammller>glx, do you also not change tags?
21:32<Ammller>just use it as "links" to special revisions?
21:32<dih>Ammller: seriously - read the svn book
21:33<dih>because you are asking questions that are mentioned in that book
21:33<+glx>tags are made with svn cp
21:33<Ammller>and never changed after?
21:33<+glx>and they are meant to be unmodified
21:33<dih>if changed, it defeats the purpose of a tag
21:34<Sacro>isn't graphviz cool
21:34<dih>anyhow - bed is calling
21:34<dih>good night
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21:35<Ammller>I ask that, because as I told rubidum, that I just svn up to the same revision as the tag is, he said, Its not good
21:36<+glx>tags are tags
21:36<Ammller>then I thought, its possible that you make (minor) changes to tags
21:36<+glx>we apply some changes when taging
21:37<Ammller>to trunk
21:37<+glx>when commiting the tag
21:37<+glx>like fixing revision string
21:37<Ammller>but they are in trunk too?
21:38<Ammller>yeah, so you make changes
21:38<+glx>when doing the tag yes, but once it's tagged, it never change
21:38<Ammller>I would like to do that too, but dih sais only read the book :)
21:40<Ammller>those points needs manual work?
21:40<+glx>but only if you need to change things before taging
21:40<+glx>else you can just do svn cp source dest
21:42<Ammller>well, but you wouldn't add files to tag on tagging?
21:42<Ammller>like readme or remove something, like todo
21:43<+glx>readme is in trunk :)
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21:49<Ammller>releases are done by hand, not by compilefarm?
21:49<Ammller>why is that?
21:50<+glx>because MSVC is way better for releases
21:50<+glx>and we make installers too
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22:01<Ammller>glx: did gonozal ask if it is possible to use your compilefarm for his patchpack?
22:02<+glx>he should ask TB
22:02<Ammller>well, I spoke about that with TB
22:02<+glx>I know nothing about the compile farm
22:02<Ammller>he told he can do such things, but he won't until we ask the "official" devs
22:03<Ammller>the compilefarm can automatically checkout a revision and fetch the patch from a given url, patch it and compile...
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22:05<@Belugas>i do not like the idea
22:06<@Belugas>unless if it is for one shot only, like the WWOTTDG or whatever compilation
22:06<Ammller>because every self patcher will use that then?
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22:09<Ammller>its just you have sometimes guys in the forums speak about pbs or something like that and want also use it
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22:09<Ammller>but they use OSX and noone has a bin for him.
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22:10<+glx>any osx user can compile, it's way easier than on windows
22:10<+glx>I think
22:11<Ammller>well, windows can use BOTTD
22:11<+glx>not for vista
22:12<@Belugas>Ammller, not at all. It's because of the confusion that will come out of it. As an example, when miniIN was been produced by compile farm, there were a lot of users who tough that we are launching an experimental branch
22:12<@Belugas>which was not the case
22:12<@Belugas>And i do fear the same will happen
22:12<Ammller>yeah, I read that many times in forums
22:13<+glx>and we did many miniin sync ourselves because richk didn't understand the changes
22:13<+glx>and syncing miniin was a hell
22:14<Ammller>well, that would be needed here
22:14<Ammller>not a branch, just a url to the patch
22:14<+glx>(mainly because subsidiaries ;) )
22:14<@Belugas>it's nothing against Gonozal_VIII's work. it is admirable and recommandable.
22:14<Gonozal_VIII>huh, highlight
22:16<+glx>oh and compile farm is known to make not runnable osx 10.5 intel binaries
22:18<Gonozal_VIII>most people that don't know how to compile are using win32 and forked is hosting binaries for that...
22:18<Gonozal_VIII>so i guess it's ok
22:19<Ammller>or OSX
22:19<Ammller>I even can't use the linux bins
22:20<Ammller>on client and on server, both has a missing lib
22:21<Ammller>not urs
22:21<+glx>is it not a wrong version?
22:21<Ammller>glx: yeah
22:21<+glx>the best way on linux is to compile yourself :)
22:22<Ammller>well, long time ago, I tried it last time, was while svn was down
22:22<Ammller>and Truelight in vacation
22:23<Ammller>how big would a static linux bin be?
22:24<Ammller>(or how is it called?)
22:24<Ammller>a independent bin
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22:54<@Belugas>night gyus, need to rest
22:57<Poopsmith>night Belugas
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 09 00:00:29 2008