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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-03-17

---Logopened Mon Mar 17 00:00:30 2008
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04:21<Poopsmith>evening Draakon
04:21<Pinchiukas>morning Draakon
04:22<Draakon>its morning here instead of evening
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04:22<ln>Draakon: so you only like realistic tv series?
04:23<Draakon>if you are talking about lost, then i have a problem with that only
04:24<ln>only lost should be realistic, others do not matter. ok.
04:24<Draakon>i dint say that
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04:31<Celestar>hey Maedhros
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04:36<Maedhros>hey Celestar
04:38<Celestar>how'S life?
04:39<Maedhros>it's all good - term's just finished, so i'm enjoying not doing any work for a little while :)
04:39<Maedhros>how about you?
04:41<Celestar>not bad
04:41<Celestar>returning to ottd (=
04:41<Maedhros>good good :-D
04:41<Celestar>trying to understand newgrf_ports :P
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04:50<peter1138>Brave man :)
04:51<Celestar>ok lets move one level lower: I'm trying to understand newgrf :P
04:51<peter1138>Oh, well, that's easy...
04:52<Celestar>where to start? ;)
04:52<Celestar>the specs?
04:55<ln>Celestar: hey, what do you think about the idea of international flights for OTTD now? a few years ago you said it's an "interesting idea".
04:56<Celestar>you mean flights to the destination outside of the map?
04:57<Celestar>.oO(omg, a $100 billion intenational space station and they need a crowbar because a bolt is stuck :S)
04:58<peter1138>Probably the Americans put an imperial bolt in...
04:58<peter1138>Hmm, 9MB/s for 5 hours...
04:58<Celestar>nah, device is apparently colder than expected ...
04:58<ln>Celestar: yeah.
04:58<Celestar>ln: let's finish newgrf_ports first, shall we? ;)
04:58<ln>fine. :)
04:58<peter1138>Oh, only 160GB...
04:58<peter1138>Is there a spec for newgrf_ports yet?
04:59<ln>Celestar: also I'd like to see different countries on the map, but that would probably be more complicated.
04:59<Celestar>peter1138: I've written RichK an e-mail regarding this question; as far as I know, it's been fairly complete.
05:00<peter1138>Mind you, it's in a branch, isn't it?
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05:04<peter1138>/* $Id: newgrf_fsmports.cpp 12351 2008-03-10 15:26:39Z richk $ */
05:05<peter1138>/** @file newgrf_station.cpp Functions for dealing with station classes and custom stations. */
05:05<peter1138>Inconsistent ;)
05:05<Celestar>inconsistent with what? :P
05:05<peter1138>He's copied stuff but not updated comments :)
05:06<peter1138>Hmm, not sure it needs a whole new station spec list :o
05:06<peter1138>(And resolver)
05:08<Celestar>dunno either.
05:08<Celestar>gotta read through all this
05:12<peter1138>Gah, fucking bosses...
05:12<peter1138>"Blah de blah was slow on Sunday, any idea why?"
05:13<peter1138>Well no... if you'd told me on Sunday I'd've been able to look...
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05:24<Maedhros>muhaha, my hotkeys patch works
05:24<Maedhros>it's still quite unfinished, though
05:24<Maedhros>what do you think?
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07:29<TheJosh>I have a dilema. There is no clear consesnous on how to display the % of shares owned by the company itslelf. A lot of people are saying to go with manager name, the original patch is company name, but there are other suggestions as well. any ideas?
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07:30<peter1138>Well you're the author, you get to decide ;)
07:30<josch>why can one build while the game is paused?
07:30<peter1138>Because the AI can't build while paused.
07:30<Noldo>it's a cheat
07:30<peter1138>But you can enable it in the cheat menu.
07:31<josch>okay the ai cannot build while paused but it is MUCH faster than I am
07:31<TheJosh>and MUCH crapper
07:31<SpComb>competing against the AI is like competing against ...
07:31<josch>so it's only fair for the human to be able to build while paused?
07:31<TheJosh>a small child
07:31<Noldo>SpComb: a goldfish?
07:31<TheJosh>a very small child. say 2 weeks
07:31<SpComb>the goldfish is a good choice
07:31<TheJosh>a baby goldfish
07:31<SpComb>in any case, it's not very much fun
07:32<TheJosh>a retarted baby goldfish
07:32<TheJosh>thus, multiplayer. or #openttdcoop
07:32<Sacro>zomg tis TheJosh
07:32<TheJosh>sounds like an alien race or somehting
07:33<josch>problem is, that the ai seems braindead and builds everywhere where it can build - I have no idea where it takes the money from
07:33<Noldo>TheJosh: is the "rest" of to company going to be own by the company itself or the manager in your shares model later?
07:33<Gonozal_VIII>oh noes, the zomg are invading earth!
07:34<Noldo>josch: it can terraform for free
07:34<TheJosh>Gonozal_VIII: HA HA HA
07:34<josch>lol terraform for free??? this explains EVERYTHING
07:35<Noldo>on a 64*64 map it looks like the ground is alive
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07:36<TheJosh>REAL WORLD: If you form a company, your the owner, yeah? then you can float shares to make capital to expand. Somewhere around then, you hire a manger. You may sell half of your company as shares to make several million dollars or whatever, but you still end up owning the 51% (typically) of the company. In the real world, the manager owns nothing
07:36<Gonozal_VIII>the evil underground zomg!
07:37<TheJosh>thus, the company owning itself made some kind of sence, but its probably clearer to say that the manager owns the remaing 50% because its simpler to understand, even if it is wrong
07:37<Gonozal_VIII>you're owner, not manager
07:37<peter1138>I think it's assumed that the manager is the owner.
07:37<TheJosh>well Ill make it the manager name then
07:38<peter1138>But it's confusing to have a list of companies and then a manager...
07:38<TheJosh>should it say "(manager)" after their name in the list of owners? or put it into another colour?
07:38<Noldo>There are so many real worlds
07:38<TheJosh>or "(founder)"
07:39<Gonozal_VIII>the world of the zomg!
07:39<TheJosh>argh! the zomg are coming!!!
07:39<Tefad>real world.. scale.. none of this applies to ttd.
07:39<TheJosh>Gonozal_VIII: do you mind if i use zomg as a character in a game I am making?
07:40<Gonozal_VIII>why would i mind? it was your idea
07:40<TheJosh>you wrote it first
07:40<Tefad>zomg is ancient
07:40<Tefad>like.. before internets
07:40<Noldo>public domain?
07:41<Gonozal_VIII>there is no befoe internets
07:41<Gonozal_VIII>that's all a myth, spread by the people in bielefeld
07:42<Gonozal_VIII>fyi ;-)
07:43<TheJosh>whats better to have after the manager name, '(manager)', or '(founder)'???
07:43<Tefad>i'd prefer doofus in charge.
07:43<TheJosh>you could make your own language for it, and make it that
07:43<Sacro>or PHB
07:44<TheJosh>oh the fun you could have with 'silly english'...
07:44<Tefad>founder sounds fine
07:44<Tefad>or primary/secondary
07:45<TheJosh>i like inaugrurator
07:45<Gonozal_VIII>silly english^tm
07:45<TheJosh>vote: inaugrurator, founder, manager
07:45<Sacro>el capitain
07:46<TheJosh>i give up
07:46<peter1138>TheJosh: (manager)
07:46<peter1138>Reason being you can 'change' the manager, and then they're not the founder...
07:46<TheJosh>good point
07:46<TheJosh>and there called the manager everywhere else
07:47<peter1138>Also, my elbows hurt...
07:47<TheJosh>why is that? soo much silly-english?
07:47<peter1138>Probably due to leaning on the desk, heh...
07:47<Tefad>Gonozal_VIII: this reminds me of "prove that the moon exists" nonsense
07:48<keyweed_>i've actually been to bielefeld
07:48<Sacro>TheJosh: they'r
07:48<TheJosh>its so annoying that you have to recompile whenever you change your strings
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07:57<TheJosh>anyway im off to be now
07:57<TheJosh>nite to all
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08:06<Gonozal_VIII>hehe a mock of those mars pictures
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08:22<Celestar>Brianetta: :)
08:24<Gekz>np: Die toten Hosen - Hier kommt Alex
08:25<keyweed>ah. nice. since he's coming, he can finish writing this document for me
08:25<Gonozal_VIII>who's alex?
08:26<Gekz>you are dicks.
08:26<keyweed>i don't know, but he'd better start typing
08:26<Gekz>the end.
08:26<keyweed>and you're crazy!
08:26<keyweed>actually. multiple misspelled crazies!
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09:05<josch>something I never found out:
09:05<josch>how to get back to the main menu??
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09:05<Gonozal_VIII>abandon game
09:05<peter1138>You, er, end the game..
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09:06<josch>ah i just found it
09:06<josch>it's in the save menu
09:06<Celestar>it'S the "system" menu, not the "save" menu :P
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09:34<Sacro>argh a Celestar :o
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause2>in the wrong colour!
09:56<Eddi|zuHause2># Lass uns diskutieren, denn in unserem schönen Land
09:56<Eddi|zuHause2># Sind zumindest theoretisch alle furchtbar tolerant
09:56<Eddi|zuHause2># Worte wollen nichts bewegen, Worte tun niemandem weh
09:56<Eddi|zuHause2># Darum lass uns drüber reden, Diskussionen sind ok
09:57<Eddi|zuHause2># NEIN! - geh mal wieder auf die Straße, geh mal wieder demonstrieren
09:57<Eddi|zuHause2># Denn wer nicht mehr versucht zu kämpfen, kann nur verlieren!
09:57<Eddi|zuHause2># Die dich verarschen, die hast du selbst gewählt
09:57<Eddi|zuHause2># Darum lass sie deine Stimme hören, weil jede Stimme zählt
09:57<Rubidium>So desu ne.
10:01<keyweed>"the only way to win, is not to play at all"
10:01<peter1138>You've lost the game?
10:02<keyweed>no. i never loose, at anything.
10:02<Gonozal_VIII>did you look under your bed?
10:02<peter1138>You're tight then?
10:03<keyweed>lol. i'm very tight. but i doubt you mean what i understand
10:03*Rubidium ponders a Blendtec vs keyweed contest.
10:04<keyweed>i define 'winning' in this context as the ability to be blended.
10:05<Gonozal_VIII>doesn't that hurt?
10:06<keyweed>only for a short time
10:06<Rubidium>best go head first
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10:09<Gonozal_VIII>you never know until you try
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10:12*keyweed wanders off in search of a keyweed-sized-blender
10:13<Gonozal_VIII>or take a usual one and start with the parts that fit in
10:13<keyweed>that's cheating
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10:43<Digitalfox>Oh a RichK67, Hi..
10:43<Digitalfox>How's new ports going ? :)
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10:51<RichK67>ive synced newGRF_ports to a fairly recent level, and solved the bugs that got introduced
10:51<RichK67>actual progress on my todo list though is negligeable
10:52<Gonozal_VIII>finish it faster, then there is less to sync :P
10:53<RichK67>pretty much waiting for v0.6.0 - there are some new goodies coming immediately post 0.6.0, that i need to make use of, so its a bit on hold until then
11:05<frosch123>Is there a difference between 'void foo(const Object &bar)' and 'void foo(const Object bar)'?
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11:09<peter1138>Former passes a reference, latter passes a struct.
11:09<frosch123>Does it really create a new struct though it is 'const'
11:09<peter1138>It should do.
11:10<peter1138>Maybe it can be optimised not to, but I don't know.
11:11<Sacro>RichK67! :D
11:13<RichK67>hi Sacro
11:15<RichK67>just popping in for a quick look round - slow work day
11:17<Sacro>ahh tis nice to see you
11:17<Sacro>RichK67: get yourself onto peter's server, tis like the old days
11:17<Sacro>UKRS, PBS
11:17<Sacro>all good fun
11:20<larsemil>hey what is the best way to get a town to grow? now i build some bus stations and build roads for them and then i deliver goods
11:21<Eddi|zuHause2>cities grow faster than towns
11:21<RichK67>Sacro: new PBS i assume
11:21<larsemil>well i meant cities. thought it was the same
11:23<Sacro>RichK67: indeed it is
11:23<Eddi|zuHause2>new PBS are completely awesome
11:23<Eddi|zuHause2>larsemil: cities are bigger than towns
11:23<larsemil>so is there something else to do to get them to grow?
11:24<Eddi|zuHause2>just transport stuff
11:24<Eddi|zuHause2>the more stations, the better (up to 5)
11:24<Eddi|zuHause2>you can also fund office buildings
11:25<RichK67>Sacro: so is the build he uses downloadable somewhere?
11:25<Sacro>RichK67: errr... not sure
11:26<Eddi|zuHause2>which build does he use anyway?
11:26<RichK67>peter1138: you on your server
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11:27<peter1138>Oh, r12187 (iirc) plus just the patch.
11:27<RichK67>so connect name will be r12187M
11:27<peter1138>looking for a binary in the thread
11:29<peter1138>hmm don't see one
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11:57<Celestar>RichK67: ;)
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11:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12376 /branches/noai/ (4 files in 3 dirs):
11:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Remove: from this day on, C++ is removed as supported language to write your NoAI in. The only language to use is Squirrel.
11:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: This commit is as preparation of the complete removal of this support.
11:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: For reasons why, please check
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11:59<peter1138>Better AI :D
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12:04<Celestar>why do I have to tell our system administrator how to generate/use ssh keys ;(
12:06<Celestar>they have nfi :S
12:06<RichK67>hi cel
12:06<keyweed>lack of either proper education or documentation
12:07<RichK67>[tab] ... oops ... Celestar
12:09<Celestar>RichK67: how's life?
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12:11<RichK67>variable - generally been busy achieving little
12:11<Celestar>sounds very much like me
12:11<Celestar>did you get my mail?
12:11<RichK67>and i replied
12:12<RichK67>10:39am (GMT)
12:12<Celestar>nothing arrived (yet). where do you send it to?
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12:34<Celestar>peter1138: could we discuss the "action 0 stations" and "action 0 fsmstations" thingy tomorrow a bit?
12:34<peter1138>Er, okay?
12:34<Celestar>good :) because I gotta hit the road
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12:54<fjb>Moin frosch123
12:54<peter1138>Gah, cacti sucks for high density equipment.
12:55<frosch123>quak fjb
12:55<Gonozal_VIII>then try other plants
12:56<Gonozal_VIII>and quak indeed
12:56<fjb>Mein kleiner grüner Kaktus... :-)
12:56<Gonozal_VIII>steht draussen am balkon
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13:05<peter1138>500W NorthQ Pacific II Fanless PSU, ATX 2.2 +80efficiency
13:05<peter1138>Fanless: No
13:05<peter1138>A non-fanless fanless psu!
13:06<Gonozal_VIII>maybe it has a fan but it's only for decoration :-)
13:06<Gonozal_VIII>a nostalgic feature
13:07*fjb is not a fan of fanless PSUs.
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13:07<Gonozal_VIII>it wouldn't be fanless if it had fans
13:10-!-anhedral is now known as dih
13:10<peter1138>fjb, why?
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13:15<fjb>500W PSUs need some kind of airflow. If the PSU doesn't have a fan, you need to provide an alternate airflow anyway.
13:16<Gonozal_VIII>i guess with the right case, there could be enough thermic airflow
13:16<fjb>Thermic airflow is not enough.
13:17<Gonozal_VIII>if the case has large cooling ribs and heatpies and stuff..
13:18<fjb>The heatpipes have to reach inside the PSU then.
13:19<peter1138>Hmm, £20 550W PSU... maybe not...
13:19*fjb would not trust that kind of PSU.
13:20-!-dih is now known as anhedral
13:21<Ammler>holdri, holdri, holdrio
13:21<fjb>Why do you need 500W? And if you need them, how is your cooling concept of the other parts of the system?
13:21<fjb>Moin Ammler
13:22<Ammler>Hi fjb, do you have time to join us on the coop Memberzone Server, we have some issues with ECS and not sure, if they are because of bug or just wrong usage...
13:23<fjb>Ammler: I can have a look.
13:23<peter1138>fjb: i don't, it was just listed as 500W...
13:24<peter1138>er, was looking in the fanless section
13:24*peter1138 assumes 400W is good enough for a normal system...
13:24<peter1138>(is it?)
13:24<fjb>About 350W is still enough for most systems.
13:25<Gonozal_VIII>depends on what normal is in your opinion
13:25<peter1138>In that case technically I don't need to replace mine, but it is an old noisy one
13:25<peter1138>(no fan speed controller)
13:25<fjb>And if you really need more power you will need a lot of airflow in the system anyway.
13:25<peter1138>Gonozal_VIII: 1 psu, 1 hdd, 1 gfx card...
13:26<Gonozal_VIII>or just place everything inside an aquarium filled with oil :-)
13:26<fjb>peter1138: about 350W is enough for that setup.
13:26<fjb>Ammler: Which version of OpenTTD do I need?
13:27-!-Osai is now known as Osai^Kendo
13:28<peter1138>And presumably larger fan == quieter operation?
13:28<peter1138>or ...
13:28<peter1138>larger fan == larger fan...
13:29<fjb>Larger fan is quieter most of the time.
13:29<Ammler>fjb: r12350
13:29<fjb>It moves more air per time unit.
13:29-!-Zr40 [] has quit [Quit: Zr40]
13:29<Gonozal_VIII>less rpm is less noise
13:29<Ammler>and company pw is your nick :-)
13:30<Ammler>I guess, you have the grfs
13:30-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:30<Ammler>else you might need our pack
13:31<Ammler>the biggest problem we have that some cargo don't make profit like sand
13:31<fjb>I will see. I'm getting the source right now, then I need some minutes to compile it.
13:32<Ammler>well, just highlight if you are ready
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13:36<fjb>peter1138: I would buy an Enermax EPR385AWT.
13:37-!-skidd13 [] has left #openttd [Ping timeout: Hmm ping sucks :D]
13:38<peter1138>Damn, up to £330 for my upgrade then :(
13:38<fjb>What kind of PSU are you using now?
13:39<peter1138>And my cheap 7900GTO is no longer available.
13:39<peter1138>A noisy 300W one
13:39<Gonozal_VIII>you can dedustify it, then it's less noisy
13:39<peter1138>with 20pin ATX
13:39<fjb>Or buy a cheap one which is not that efficient and turn of the power a bit more often.
13:40<peter1138>I turn the power off when not in use, heh
13:40*peter1138 wonders if the ATI drivers for linux are any good yet, since the specs came out
13:41*fjb didn't try the ATI drivers yet.
13:41<fjb>The questions is how many hours a day you are using that PC.
13:41-!-stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
13:42<fjb>And look for a hardware powerswitch at the backside of the PSU.
13:42<peter1138>The EPR385AWT is fairly cheap anyway
13:42<peter1138>So I may just go with that.
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13:43*peter1138 supposes that 8 years is a fairly long time between upgrades.
13:44<fjb>It is a long time. But that is good, protecting the nature.
13:45<fjb>And there not many cheaper PSUs that I would use.
13:45<fjb>Ammler: I need you GRF pack.
13:46<fjb>Ammler: Thank you. I never find that link in the wiki. :-)
13:47<fjb>Gonozal_VIII: OK, you could use an external power switch instead.
13:47<Ammler>it would also work with NewGRF
13:47<peter1138>fjb: cheap vs expensive doesn't really mean much for quality
13:48<fjb>peter1138: You are usually right. But there is a minimum price for good things. Everythnig cheaper has to be kind of crap.
13:48<stillunknown>Too cheap is crap.
13:49<stillunknown>A OEM 350W psu for 30'ish euros is reasonable.
13:49<Gonozal_VIII>there's also expensive crap
13:50<peter1138>Damn, so my 10 energy saving lights for 10p was bad ;(
13:50<peter1138>Ok, however
13:50<peter1138>I'll also need a new graphics card, see.
13:50<mrfrenzy>most cheap energy saving lights really suck
13:50<peter1138>As modern stuff does not have AGP, and my old one is half-dying anyway.
13:51<fjb>AGP is dead...
13:51<mrfrenzy>either they have crappy light colour, make sound, take a long time to start, use too much energy, or burn out early
13:51<peter1138>mrfrenzy: but they were 1p each! ;)
13:51<peter1138>Hmm, 8600GT...
13:51<mrfrenzy>wtf, how is that possible? ;)
13:52<fjb>Ammler: I can join now.
13:52<peter1138>mrfrenzy: dunno, originally they were around £3, then they were 1p...
13:52<Ammler>well, I am waiting
13:52<peter1138>Damn IE7 just crashed :p
13:55<peter1138>Argh, so many different variants even on the same chipset :(
13:55<peter1138>650 vs 680 Mhz... nobody shuold have to care!
13:56<mrfrenzy>haha, I remember the times when every MHz counted
13:56<mrfrenzy>you compared different memory speeds and gpu speeds from different manufacturers of the same card
13:56<peter1138>This is from the same manufacturer...
13:57<mrfrenzy>and with that odd driver version you could get 2 fps extra!
13:57<peter1138>XFX 8600GT vs XFX 8600GT
13:57-!-nycerine [] has joined #openttd
13:57<peter1138>actually there's an XFX 8600GT that's 540 MHz too
13:57<peter1138>wtf is GT supposed to represent if there's a wide range of speeds?
13:57<peter1138>XFX 8600GT XXX is 620 MHz...
13:58<peter1138>XFX 8600GTS XXX is 730...
13:58<peter1138>WHY BOTHER
13:58<+glx>GTS != GT
13:58<peter1138>I know, it's 40 quid more
13:58<Prof_Frink>XFX 8600 GTi is 620MHz with a go-faster stripe.
13:59<hylje>red things go fasta
13:59<Prof_Frink>Not always true.
14:00<Prof_Frink>In Australia, for instance, silver things go faster than red things.
14:00<Prof_Frink>The the red things break.
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14:02<stillunknown>peter1138: Choose based on chipset, memory, speed, buswidth, not some marketing name.
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14:40<peter1138>stillunknown: there are so many numbers :(
14:40<peter1138>Does manufacturer mean much?
14:40<peter1138>It's all nVidia or ATI anyway...
14:40-!-TrueBrain [] has joined #openttd
14:40<stillunknown>I personally have bad experiences with msi.
14:41<TrueBrain>as yorick refuses to talk to me about a subject in a channel not related to general OpenTTD (as else he gets kicked by me :p), and tries to PM me... lets continue it here ;)
14:41<TrueBrain>[19:36] <yorick> why not make masterserver communication TCP?
14:41<TrueBrain>[19:39] <TrueBrain> anyway, masterserver: if it would be TCP, it would be down more often then up
14:41<yorick>oki :)
14:41<TrueBrain>[19:40] <yorick> and does that have a reason (channel is NoAI devel :p)
14:41<TrueBrain>TCP for masterservers == bad
14:41<TrueBrain>period :)
14:41<stillunknown>peter1138: there are some general guidelines.
14:42<peter1138>What about UDP for server list and TCP for server info?
14:42<peter1138>Hmm, they're all done at the same time aren't they...
14:42<TrueBrain>cool, let me kill all the servers out there :)
14:42<Digitalfox>Asus Graphics Card based on ATI no fucking way again in my entire life.. Bought a Asus Ati Radeon 9800XT in 2003 for 600$ and had to replaced it 3 times in 6 months..
14:42<peter1138>TrueBrain :D
14:42<TrueBrain>I just request the server info like 20 times
14:42<TrueBrain>and well...I repeat that over and over
14:42<TrueBrain>nicest DDoS ever :)
14:42<stillunknown>more Mhz is better, as long as they have the same memory bus and the same amount of shaders
14:42<peter1138>yorick has to make the UDP system multi-packet aware
14:42<TrueBrain>you have a VERY limited amount of available TCP sockets
14:43<TrueBrain>where there are almost unlimited amount of UDP sockets (in fact, send against sendto)
14:43<TrueBrain>that would mean recreating TCP
14:43<yorick>not entirely
14:43<peter1138>So you're saying we're stuck with < 1500 bytes of data maximum?
14:43<blathijs>stillunknown: What bad experiences? So far, I think MSI makes okay hardware, but they have an incompetent notebook support department
14:43<yorick>the current server list problem has to do with ^^
14:43<TrueBrain>you guys are over complicating things to the max :)
14:43<Sacro>TO THE MAX!
14:44<peter1138>Probably so, I don't know what yorick wants to achieve.
14:44<TrueBrain>@kick Sacro that was a long time ago
14:44-!-Sacro was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [that was a long time ago]
14:44<TrueBrain>what is it exactly what you want to do
14:44-!-Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
14:44<yorick>I'm wondering about how to secure the master server list when more servers come
14:44<yorick>selective listing?
14:44<TrueBrain>well, very simple: send out multiple packets
14:44<TrueBrain>without any testing if they ever arrived
14:45<TrueBrain>just send them
14:45<yorick>and if they haven't arrived?
14:45<TrueBrain>well, then they don't
14:45<peter1138>18:40 TrueBrain> that would mean recreating TCP
14:45<peter1138>18:40 TrueBrain> useless
14:45<yorick>TrueBrain> without any testing if they ever arrived
14:45<TrueBrain>if you want, make an auto-update that requests a new list every 5 minutes or so
14:45<peter1138>That's what you said when I suggested that?
14:45<blathijs>You could add some sequence numbering
14:45<TrueBrain>peter1138: I never suggested any retrying
14:45<blathijs>And let the client re-request the entire list if it misses any packet
14:45<stillunknown>blathijs: I had a really crap mainbord, and at the time i also found out that a few shops that used to carry msi, didn't do it anymore, precisely over my kind experience.
14:45<TrueBrain>blathijs: possible, a simple number... but I don't see any use of it
14:46<stillunknown>blathijs: It's personal, that i admit.
14:46<TrueBrain>peter1138: simple: if an UDP packet doesn't reach it destination.. well... bad luck
14:46<yorick>and then it misses servers
14:46<TrueBrain>blathijs: the chances of ever getting the full list of the list is big, is almost 0 :)
14:46-!-Gonozal_VIII [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:46<TrueBrain>yorick: so?
14:46<TrueBrain>would you miss them?
14:46<yorick>more "can't find server!" bug reports?
14:46<TrueBrain>see, if you want to look for a certain server, the chances are high you know where the server is
14:46<TrueBrain>take for example Half-Life
14:47<TrueBrain>hit the masterserver list
14:47<TrueBrain>chances are you get like 80% of the list (true, HL does have some clever sub-systems in place, but still, not all servers are retrieved)
14:47<yorick>http get has been suggested aswell
14:47<TrueBrain>do you ever miss them?
14:47<yorick>there are more clients there
14:47<TrueBrain>http == TCP == bad for masterserver
14:47<TrueBrain>run an UDP test
14:47<yorick>and not for webservers ....
14:47<TrueBrain>send out like 1000 UDP packets, 2 every second
14:47<TrueBrain>see how many are received
14:48<TrueBrain>I estimate it around 98%
14:48<yorick>I wonder if the whole masterserver thing is actually good
14:48<TrueBrain>in general, yes
14:49<yorick>everything dependent on one server, if it goes down...boom...forever...death!
14:49<blathijs>TrueBrain: Is TCP for a masterserver really that bad? There are HTTP servers that do millions of hits per day as well, right?
14:49<TrueBrain>for that we have DNS
14:49<peter1138>master server in dns!
14:49<TrueBrain>blathijs: well, yes, it is bad :) Give me any game that uses TCP as masterserver :)
14:49<peter1138>A record showing the IP, or AAAA
14:49<peter1138>TXT should version... and everything else ;)
14:50<TrueBrain>blathijs: HTTP servers are slow, in general; but as you want to make sure you get the page you want, you need TCP
14:50<peter1138>GRF IDs would fit into A records!
14:50<TrueBrain>for a masterserver it is different
14:50<peter1138> A ...
14:50<yorick>peer-to-peer server list networking...*crazy ideas here*
14:50<TrueBrain>the idea is that you don't always want everything, you just want to see servers
14:50<peter1138>GOD THAT IS SIC
14:50<TrueBrain>there is no need for 100% data transfer
14:50<TrueBrain>it can get lost
14:50<yorick>more "can't find server!" bug reports?
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14:51<blathijs>TrueBrain: Yeah, I know that UDP would be sufficient. Then again, it doesn't hurt to actually get the full list :-)
14:51<TrueBrain>blathijs: but there is no need :)
14:51<TrueBrain>and I am very sure that if the masterserver would be TCP, it would be more unreachable, than reachable
14:51<yorick>I'm not going to quote again
14:51*peter1138 wonders how much bandwidth the master server uses...
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14:52<TrueBrain>that I can estimate for you
14:52<TrueBrain>it is near to nothing
14:52<blathijs>yorick: I think that adding some sequence numbering to the packets, and re-requesting the list a few times if you miss packages, makes the average coverage (number of servers actually received) quite high
14:52<yorick>what if you retrieve the server list from one known server, and after you have the server list, store it
14:52<TrueBrain>1.3 kbit/sec on average :p
14:52<fjb>You only would have to rerequest the missing part of the list.
14:53<TrueBrain>fjb: not really possible
14:53<TrueBrain>blathijs: then you can also just use IP fragmentation
14:53<TrueBrain>allows you up to, what.. 17k?
14:53<TrueBrain>something like that
14:53<fjb>TrueBrain: Because the list may have changed?
14:53<TrueBrain>ah, 8k packet size with IP fragmentation
14:54<TrueBrain>fjb: no, it would mean more complexity on the masterserver, being able to understand such requests
14:54<TrueBrain>basicly then you are recreating socket-less TCP
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14:54<yorick>isn't that a good thing in this case?
14:54<TrueBrain>to summarize what I try to tell you guys: don't worry about the posibility of packet-loss
14:54<TrueBrain>if it ever happens, well.. people just hit refresh
14:55<TrueBrain>shit happens
14:55<TrueBrain>don't worry about it
14:55<fjb>Something like dns uses.
14:55<TrueBrain>yorick: the memory footprint increases, in the best optimized implementation of what ever TCP method you use
14:55<TrueBrain>which means I can bring down the masterserver with ease
14:55-!-mikl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:56<TrueBrain>now the system is simple: signal in, process, signal out, forget
14:56<yorick>like you can't do that now :)
14:56<yorick>and then especcially you
14:56<blathijs>TrueBrain: IP fragmentation will result in no list at all if anything is lost, so you'll have to retry until all packets get through once
14:56<fjb>Do UDP packets really get lost that much?
14:56<TrueBrain>then you get: signal in, process, signal out, remember, handle errors, remember, wait, wait more, handle errors, try to forget ;)
14:56<TrueBrain>blathijs: basicly the same, not? :)
14:56<TrueBrain>fjb: on normal networks, no
14:56<TrueBrain>fjb: on long distances + poor modems, might happen
14:56<peter1138>fjb: only for users with shitty adsl routers...
14:56<blathijs>TrueBrain: I was proposing merging all packets you receive
14:57<blathijs>TrueBrain: Ie, if you miss one packet, you'll have a nearly complete list
14:57<TrueBrain>blathijs: so again, TCP over UDP ;)
14:57<yorick>which might not be a good thing
14:57<fjb>So just stick with the list split into a number of UDP packets and let the users refresh if they are missing a server.
14:57<TrueBrain>okay, reality check: how much servers do you expect to be in OpenTTD in say, 2 years?
14:57-!-Frostregen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:57<peter1138>Don't forget IPv6 ;)
14:57<blathijs>Then, if you re-request the entire list, the chance is very small that you will again miss the same packets, so chances are big you get a (nearly) complete list after 2 or 3 tries
14:57<TrueBrain>@openttd servers
14:57<yorick>double of it as it is now
14:57<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Servers online: 141; Running version 0.5.3 (latest): 65; Clients online: 126
14:57-!-Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
14:58<blathijs>TrueBrain: So, it's not TCP, since there is no extra server overhead or state tracking
14:58<TrueBrain>blathijs: then a smarter way: refresh the list every 5 minutes
14:58<TrueBrain>and fill in any missing IPs
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14:58<TrueBrain>blathijs: you are correct
14:58<TrueBrain>okay, 300 servers in 2 years
14:58<TrueBrain>how much size would that consume?
14:58<blathijs>TrueBrain: It's simply introducing some redundancy in your connection, which doubles or triples the bandwith cost (which shouldn't be so bad)
14:58<TrueBrain>4500 bytes?
14:58<yorick>too much for current
14:58<TrueBrain>so, 3 UDP packets?
14:59<TrueBrain>really, don't worry about packet-loss there :p
14:59<peter1138>Hmm, how many bytes is each server?
14:59<TrueBrain>peter1138: IP + port
14:59<TrueBrain>so now like 4 + 1
14:59<TrueBrain>IPv6 like 16 + 1
14:59<yorick>no md5?
14:59<peter1138>port is 2 bytes
15:00<TrueBrain>that is server <-> client
15:00<TrueBrain>peter1138: you are right :)
15:00<peter1138>So 300 servers is 1800 bytes
15:00<TrueBrain>the masterlist only gives the client a big list of IPs and ports (last time I checked ;))
15:01<TrueBrain>but, I can't be 100% sure about that :p
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15:01<TrueBrain>peter1138: yeah, I don't think the masterserver <-> clients is overflowing currently
15:01<TrueBrain>I can check if you like...
15:01<yorick>@calc 141 * 5
15:01<peter1138>Not currently, no.
15:01<@DorpsGek>yorick: 705
15:01<yorick>its at half?
15:02<peter1138>@calc 141*6
15:02<@DorpsGek>peter1138: 846
15:02<TrueBrain>peter1138: will it ever? :)
15:02<peter1138>Probably not with IPv4.
15:02<peter1138>So, er, why does it need changing?
15:02<TrueBrain>I don't know
15:02<peter1138>OK :D
15:02<TrueBrain>yorick is asking around :)
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15:02<yorick>I managed to read that it ever will
15:03<TrueBrain> this->serverlist_packet->Send_uint32(servers[i].ip);
15:03<TrueBrain> this->serverlist_packet->Send_uint16(servers[i].port);
15:03<yorick>32 :o
15:03<TrueBrain>also, 1 byte for version indication
15:03<TrueBrain>and 2 bytes for server-list-count
15:03<TrueBrain>yorick: sure, it will, maybe, overflow some day
15:03<TrueBrain>lets hope it does!
15:04<TrueBrain>anyway, please put it in your ears for once and for all: MasterServer and GameQuery should be UDP, not TCP
15:04<yorick>@calc ((1500-3)-(141*6))/6
15:04<@DorpsGek>yorick: 108.5
15:04<TrueBrain>TCP consumes way too much resources
15:04<TrueBrain>what blathijs suggests is a good idea to implement
15:04<TrueBrain>but in my opinion far from needed
15:05<@Belugas>I drink to that!
15:05<@Belugas>coffee, of course...
15:05<TrueBrain>hi Belugas :)
15:05<@Belugas>Hello TrueBrain
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15:05-!-Zaviori [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:05<TrueBrain>blathijs: btw, bandwidth isn't an issue here :) Really none at all :p
15:05<@Belugas>glad to see you having a strong conversation in here :D
15:05-!-hylej [] has joined #openttd
15:05<TrueBrain>well, I got sick of the same question by different people over and over :p
15:05-!-Netsplit <-> quits: Greysc[a]le, ob0t, welterde, Phantasm, hylje
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15:06<yorick>With a two-byte size field, the theoretical maximum size is 65535 bytes. However, some implementations of UDP restrict the datagram to a smaller number -- sometimes as low as 8192 bytes.
15:06-!-Netsplit over, joins: welterde
15:06<TrueBrain>yorick: UDP max size, including IP fragmentation, is 8k on all sane systems
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15:07<TrueBrain> <- this page explains most of it
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15:07<TrueBrain>yorick: but what is this obsession with making the world more complicated?
15:07<fjb>Ammler: Indiana started his server without road vehicle grf...
15:07<blathijs>TrueBrain: Yeah, that's why it isn't an issue that my approach triples bandwidth :-)
15:08<yorick>everything has to be that way ^^
15:08<TrueBrain>blathijs: indeed :) An other (common) approach is that the MS sends out the result 2 or 3 times, with a bit of delay
15:09<blathijs>TrueBrain: That's essentially the same thing I guess
15:09<yorick>(waarom makkelijk doen als het ook moeilijk kan :)) An other (common) approach is that the MS sends out the result 2 or 3 times, with a bit of delay <-- double the traffic, could fail aswell
15:09<blathijs>TrueBrain: Moves a bit of the complexity from the client to the server, but makes the entire thing less complex I thing
15:10<blathijs>yorick: I think that the possibility of failure really isn't a problem, as long is the chances are small
15:10<TrueBrain>yorick: it can always fail... I can send you 1000 UDP packets, and they can all get lost...
15:10<yorick>you must be lucky that way
15:10<TrueBrain>I call it a firewall
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15:11<TrueBrain>one thing btw about IPv6: a given prefix indicates that an IP is in fact IPv4.. so if you switch to IPv6, the MS only needs to send IPv6 for all IPs, and the client can understand when it is inf act a IPv4
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15:12<TrueBrain>(that prefix is pre-set by IPv6)
15:12<TrueBrain>@calc (1500-10)/18
15:12<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 82.7777777778
15:12<TrueBrain>so then only 82 servers can go in MS, so then there would be need for something blathijs suggests
15:12<yorick>who was that ipv6 patchdevel?
15:12<TrueBrain>a more simpler approach for OpenTTD would be:
15:12<TrueBrain>send 1 packet with IPv4 servers
15:12<TrueBrain>and 1 packet with IPv6 servers
15:13<TrueBrain>problem solved, complexity almost 0
15:13<TrueBrain>(by the time IPv6 has 82+ servers, the network protocol is (hopefully) rewritten anyway :p)
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15:13<TrueBrain>yorick: I guess SpComb
15:14<yorick>lets go making him aware ^^
15:15<yorick>hmm...where is that masterserver-updater
15:15<TrueBrain>in /something
15:15<TrueBrain>not trunk, branch or tags
15:15<yorick>I know that
15:16<TrueBrain>anyway, enough answers? :)
15:16<TrueBrain>k :) Then thank you blathijs for a good and solid solution, and good night to you all :)
15:16-!-TrueBrain [] has left #openttd [So long and tnx for all the fish]
15:18<blathijs>Hmm, that was quick :-)
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15:24<YOYO>im trying to get a openttd server up (again) now it says its broadcasting but it doenst show up in the list.... yes ports are forwarded. Also the advertisingthing in console seems to be stalling. can any one verify that the server is up or give support?
15:25<yorick>what IP?
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15:27<yorick>can't reach
15:27<jez9999>Rubidium around lately?
15:27<YOYO>cause by watching wire shark it seems its recieving its call from the master server
15:30<yorick>today is a very masterserver-y day
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15:30<YOYO2>crappy shit
15:30<YOYO2>anyways its annoying
15:30<yorick>you don't seem to have a steady internet connection...
15:31<YOYO2>ever since the first PC nwith Vista entered it became less stabel
15:31<YOYO2>for some reason my inet modem likes to reset its self eversince
15:33<yorick>servers like running on a steady internet connection
15:33<YOYO2>they dont care ;) but no one can connect to them if it fails
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15:40<YOYO>And the worst shit its getting more and more
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15:45<blathijs>YOYO: I've been having problems with an ADSL modem some time ago, turned out one of the PC's in the network was spyware infested (which attempted to open a couple thousand TCP connections, flooding the modem's NAT buffers...)
15:45<blathijs>YOYO: Perhaps you're having something similar?
15:45<blathijs>Though I required a manual modem reset to get any connection again
15:45<YOYO>blathijs hmmm yeah but how to find that bastard?
15:46<YOYO>asume that this one isnt the infested one as it runs linux full updated
15:46<YOYO>and my PC vista PC is the one who comes second of it
15:46<blathijs>YOYO: Powering every machine down? :-)
15:46<YOYO>couldnt it be my modem is gettin gto old
15:46<blathijs>And then booting them one at a time to see where the problem is
15:47<blathijs>YOYO: It could be simple hardware failure, I guess
15:47<YOYO>thats the problem it can be good for hours and then shutdown
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15:47<blathijs>YOYO: You should see if there is any pattern there (such as starting to fail when some computer is started, or some program perhaps)
15:48-!-YOYO [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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15:48<YOYO>but its annoying
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15:50<YOYO>well wireshark is telling much
15:50<YOYO>a lot of traffic
15:51<yorick>doesn't wireshark cause the failures?
15:51<blathijs>Dumping the traffic before it goes into your modem would be useful, but that requires some nifty hardware I guess
15:52<YOYO>no wireshark intercepts packages
15:52<blathijs>Only if they end up in your machine, so you're probably not getting all the packets
15:53<blathijs>Hmm, about that nifty hardware part -- A hub would probably do the trick just fine :-)
15:54<YOYO>wel placed an ols router as a hub btween PC and ROuter/modem but didnyt help
15:57<blathijs>If it's a somewhat standard ADSL modem, you might try borrowing one from your neighbours are something, to see if that solves the probem
15:58<YOYO>the bestway is to borrow a hub to see if its beter
15:58<YOYO>after that a othe rmodem
16:13<SpComb>reimplementin TCP on top of UDP is something that you want to avoid, but doing our own fragmentation+retry is pretty far from what TCP does
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16:13<SpComb>it would be pretty close to stateless on the server side
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16:21<peter1138>Except if the data changes between requests...
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16:23<blathijs>peter1138: That doesn't really matter, as long as you simply merge all the data you get
16:23<blathijs>peter1138: You might have a server in the list that is no longer valid, but it was valid a few ms ago, so that's not really a problem
16:24<peter1138>or you might miss some
16:24<peter1138>but then you can do that also
16:24<peter1138>er, anyway
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16:26<SpComb>peter1138: indeed, that's the issue I was wondering about
16:26<blathijs>missing some is not really a problem either
16:27<blathijs>As long as you will get most of the list most of the time :-)
16:27<SpComb>best effort, but no 110% garuntee
16:28<SpComb>and yes TCP isn't entirely impossible, and web servers are capable of handling large amounts of traffic
16:28<SpComb>but it would be preferrable to keep the OpenTTD MS on UDP
16:29<blathijs>yeah, stateless is a good idea I guess
16:30<SpComb>imo the client's ms query code could grow a bit thicker, but it would be good to keep the ms's code as thin as possible
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16:33<dragonhorseboy>anyone here from that 'czech game' server?
16:33<dragonhorseboy>(just a long shoot heh)
16:33<SpComb>and the IPv4-translated addresses are transparent to the client, it wouldn't need to handle them
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16:39<blathijs>SpComb: Unless the client's OS doesn't support IPv6
16:40<peter1138>like OS2 :D
16:40<peter1138>I imagine
16:40<peter1138>maybe it does...
16:40<SpComb>oh great, so we need to write our own TCP/IP stack for OpenTTD?
16:41<peter1138>No, just some ifdefs...
16:41<dragonhorseboy>spcomb...yeah I would think so anyhow
16:41<dragonhorseboy>I know some browsers & online softwares that are good but barely just get enough patch fixes to keep up at times save less ipv6/etc
16:41<dragonhorseboy>to our own
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16:42<SpComb>but cross-platformitiy is something that my IPv6 code is midding
16:43<SpComb>the basic stuff works on win32, but even that needs cleanup, talk about the server code
16:44*blathijs has had some trouble with non-IPv6 platforms on an embedded platform
16:44<blathijs>uclibc can have ipv6 switched off, for example
16:44-!-antihcl [~antivert@] has joined #openttd
16:44<antihcl>openttd, woo!
16:45<antihcl>it's really gotten quite good.. TTD is one of my favorite games ever and openttd makes it painless and more fun :D
16:46<dragonhorseboy>antihcl...the only one reason I'm still bothering with openttd yet is due to lack of finding any vnc owners (although I might not even be able to run openttd anymore when summer comes around due to change of things/computers tho)
16:46<dragonhorseboy>so meh... ^-^
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16:51<dragonhorseboy>antichl one curious question tho - do you run with grfs? :p
16:53<YOYO2>wireshark tells me that it cant reach this adress associated to openttd: what is this adress?
16:53<+glx>master server
16:54<YOYO2>hmm that explains why the server doenst show up there
16:54<antihcl>dragonhorseboy: yeah, I use the UK renewal set
16:55<antihcl>dragonhorseboy: and.. vnc?
16:55<dragonhorseboy>antihcl heh ^-^
16:55<dragonhorseboy>vnc = ttdp-to-ttdp even if the real connection distance is more than 1km far away [well you get the idea heh]
16:56<dragonhorseboy>I've had this idea for some time and even tried it once myself here find anyone else -- not much luck yet :p
16:56-!-helb [~helb@] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
16:56<dragonhorseboy>either way re grfs..I have quite several that I like
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16:57<dragonhorseboy>dbsetxl (I of course am curious to a possible 0.9 set but then am just dangly fine with 0.82 either way) .. NARS (set to arctic-only) ... newships ... etc etc
16:57*dragonhorseboy hehs
17:00<dragonhorseboy>antihcl where you from? canada here
17:01<jez9999>Does Rubidium tend to talk in here?
17:02<+glx>when he's awake yes
17:02<YOYO2>why is the host not reachebel???
17:02<YOYO2>firewall,router settings?
17:02<YOYO2>cant be
17:03<jez9999>ok in that case... how do i get a list of available engines for a given track type?
17:03<blathijs>YOYO2: What does a simple ping from your machine do? Or a traceroute?
17:04<antihcl>dragonhorseboy: California, but I live in Dubai
17:05<YOYO2>blathijs its returning
17:05<YOYO2>on this linux machine and the vista machine both see him
17:05-!-dR3x4cK [] has quit [Quit: dR3x4cK]
17:06<+glx>jez9999: use FOR_ALL_ENGINES and test the track type
17:06<blathijs>but wireshark says it's unreachable? How does wireshark tell you that exactly?
17:06<blathijs>YOYO2: Do you see a host unreachable packet somewhere in the dump or something?
17:06<YOYO2>Destination unreachebel (Port unreachebel)
17:06<YOYO2>(bloody bad english btw :)
17:08<jez9999>glx: k
17:09<blathijs>YOYO2: That's a packet you receive from then?
17:09<blathijs>YOYO2: Does it say which port is unreachable? :-)
17:09<YOYO2>no from the intern to oudside
17:10<YOYO2>from 81.xx.xx.xx to inter its considering port 32772, 3979 from me to 81.Xx.XX.XX no port info known
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17:13<YOYO>first thing to do tomorrow mail the ISP with this annoying resetting
17:14<YOYO>stupid..... ahhh nvm :)
17:18<Sacro>hellooooooooooooo blathijs
17:18<blathijs>hey Sacro
17:19<Sacro>blathijs: PBS needs to go into trunk
17:21<Gonozal_VIII>yay pbs
17:25<peter1138>Yes, then we rip it out again ;D
17:25<Gonozal_VIII>bad peter!
17:26<peter1138>Like last time!
17:26*Gonozal_VIII slaps peter around a bit with a large pbs signal
17:26<peter1138>Although this time it works better, so...
17:27<Gonozal_VIII>as far as i know, pbs is the most wanted missing feature right now
17:28<Gonozal_VIII>well.. missing feature with existing patch
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17:28*YOYO thinks his old speedtouch 510 modem router is starting to give way
17:29<YOYO>smells like hot electronics cant be good :)
17:29<blathijs>Well, your internet is still working... :-)
17:29<YOYO>dont mention that part :P
17:32<YOYO>he is verry sensitive for the sentence im still working ;)
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17:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12377 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1854]: set cached value for vehicle property 25 before other cached values
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17:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12378 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: refresh vehicle details window when cached values are updated
17:56-!-Osai^Kendo is now known as Osai
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18:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12379 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: removed now redondant InvalidateWindow() calls
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18:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12380 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: update train acceleration and max speed after setting cached value to ensure the correct max speed is used with disabled real acceleration
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18:23<LIIT>evening all :-)
18:25<Eddi|zuHause2><Ammler> the biggest problem we have that some cargo don't make profit like sand <--- err, did you by any chance add industry/cargo grfs after the scenario was created?
18:32<jez9999>i'm not able to understand RailTypeByte
18:32<jez9999>how am i supposed to check what type of rail something is when im testing RailTypeByte?
18:33<jez9999>its type is some weird custom struct
18:33-!-Zavior [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:34<peter1138>if (foo == bar) usually...
18:35-!-mikl [] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by Peer Gynt]
18:35<+glx>RailTypeByte is just a wrapper aroud RailType
18:36<+glx>to force it's size
18:37-!-Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
18:37<ln>wtf was the context where the big brother competitor said what she said?
18:37-!-Maedhros [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:38<Eddi|zuHause2>why would anyone care?
18:40<ln>because it's on the tabloid news papers
18:40<ln>like all the pointless stuff.
18:43<Eddi|zuHause2>why would anyone care?
18:44<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: Because people are stupid.
18:44<ln>panem et circenses.
18:44<Gonozal_VIII>wtf big brother is still running
18:44-!-UserError [] has joined #openttd
18:44<Gonozal_VIII>didn't that crap end some years ago?
18:45<Eddi|zuHause2>they obviously didn't have worse crap to broadcast
18:46<Eddi|zuHause2>err:dsound:DSOUND_MixOne Fatal error. Under/Overflow? primary_done=64032, mixpos=18144/147456 (18144/147456), primary_mixpos=10784, writepos=12288, mixlen=12480 <<--- anyone think they might be slightly exaggerating?
18:48-!-UserErr0r [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:51<Eddi|zuHause2>well, if i have sound, and it is playing fine, the error can't be that "fatal"
18:52-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:54<Sacro>openttd should be doing GSOC :(
18:56-!-Ammller [] has joined #openttd
18:58<Ammller>Eddi|zuHause2: thanks for that hint
18:58<Ammller>I need to ask Osai...
18:58-!-YOYO [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:59<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammller: the wwottdgd people did some hackery with replacing the cargo payment rates chunk in the (uncompressed) savegame
18:59<Ammller>yeah, that was Phazorx
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19:00<Ammller>sadly, he never documented that
19:00<Ammller>I asked him to do it, but :(
19:01<Ammller>a savegame viewer/editor would be a really nice tool :-)
19:01<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe it's time for a "resetcargos" command
19:05<Eddi|zuHause2># i can't get no sleep
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19:06<peter1138>Problem is inflation
19:06-!-anhedral is now known as dih
19:06<peter1138>I suppose it can work roughly at the start.
19:07<Eddi|zuHause2>i was under the impression that inflation is a factor that is multiplied on each payment, not something that changes the cargo rates
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19:12<phin>so how do i go about getting upgraded graphics on openttd?
19:12<phin>im sorta confused about the whole thing
19:13<Eddi|zuHause2>you go to and search for a .grf file that you find interesting, then put that into your data directory, then click the "NewGRFs" button on the main menu
19:14<Patrick`>it's a long and amusing process.
19:14<phin>ah ok
19:14<phin>i just wasnt sure
19:14<phin>now are there any packages that just update everything? or is it just some things?
19:15<Eddi|zuHause2>typically, each grf file changes one aspect of the game, i.e. one for bridges, one for trains, one (or more) for industries
19:15<phin>the vector sets are very nice looking
19:15<Eddi|zuHause2>and usually not just graphics, also behaviour
19:16<Eddi|zuHause2>if you need more than one of each type, you have to worry about compatibility
19:16<peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2: you have the wrong impression then.
19:16<Patrick`>probem is tht they're not just graphics updates.
19:16<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: happens ;)
19:17<phin>what about the ecs patches?
19:17<phin>are they pretty good? the screen shots ive seen are pretty amazing
19:17<Patrick`>there's no thing that just makes it free to redistribute if that's what you're getting at
19:17<Gonozal_VIII>there are no ecs patches
19:17<Eddi|zuHause2>phin: the ECS grf can be loaded together, just make sure you load them in the right order
19:17<phin>where do i find the order?
19:18<Eddi|zuHause2>phin: the last two numbers of the "GRF ID"
19:18<phin>ok thanks, im going to give this a quick try
19:18<phin>i just wasnt sure
19:18<phin>i couldnt find any information on any of the websites, so i figured i would venture into irc and check :)
19:19<Eddi|zuHause2>and you need a train set or a road vehicle set for the new cargo types
19:19<phin>can i just use what i find here?
19:21<fjb>phin: The beta 4 vectors are ok. You will get some trouble if you are using alpha vectors.
19:21<Eddi|zuHause2>although IMHO the "Long Vehicles" are out of scale
19:21<phin>ok thanks
19:21<phin>are there any suggested "packages" i could just grab, that has everything in one download?
19:21<Eddi|zuHause2>search for the openttdcoop grf pack
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>they have some of the most popular ones
19:22<Patrick`>grfs are an exercise in frustration, but you can't stop people from doing what they want to
19:22<Patrick`>it's like, great, we have 500 trains but the game's still not free to redistribute.
19:22<Patrick`>someone make some gorramn free sounds or something
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>don't listen to him ;)
19:23<Patrick`>I understand that freescenery is almost done
19:23<phin>so thats what i want?
19:23<Patrick`>this was something i've been whining about for ages - get it into a linux distro and you'll get so many more eyes :)
19:23<Ammller>phin: if you take coop pack, the GRFs are already sorted for working usage
19:23<phin>Ammller: excellant, thanks :)
19:23<Ammller>just use the filesystem
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19:24<phin>sounds good
19:24<phin>just put them in /usr/share/games/openttd/data and i should be set?
19:24<Ammller>the only thing you need to do self is reading the docs
19:24<phin>sounds good
19:24<Ammller>some grfs needs parameter
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19:25<Ammller>yeah, that sounds good for root
19:25<Eddi|zuHause2>phin: newer versions of openttd allow ~/.openttd/data
19:25<phin>im using the newest beta
19:25<Ammller>but user put them to ./.openttd/...
19:25<phin>i have a couple of users on this machine, so i generally just put them in root
19:26-!-dih is now known as anhedral
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19:26<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, if you want to share them, the games directory seems appropriate
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19:27<Ammller>oh, a msn user sends me spam
19:28*SpComb gets that every now and then
19:28<Ammller>is kicking the contact only solution?
19:29<SpComb>a site that says it'll show you what contacts have blocked you, and asks you for your handle/password
19:29<SpComb>...and then sells your address to spammers and spam itself to everyone on your contact list
19:29<Prof_Frink>Ammller: Do you mean blocking, or going round said contact's house and actually kicking them?
19:29<Gonozal_VIII>that link is spam btw
19:30<Prof_Frink>Because option b) is the far more effective. And satisfying.
19:30<Ammller>SpComb: is for multiplayer only
19:31<Ammller>that would make it somehow legal to use cooppack as a common source too :-)
19:31<phin>im not seeing any sort of order to load these in in the README or html page
19:32<Ammller>phin: they are already sorted saved
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19:32<Ammller>check ottdc_grfpack.cfg
19:32<phin>how do i get that to automaticly load?
19:33<Ammller>you can't use ALL grfs together
19:33<phin>oh, ok
19:33<Ammller>specially the vehicels and industries
19:34<Ammller>but the directory structure is also the right order
19:36<Ammller>and its taken from GRFCrawler, btw.
19:37<phin>are there any pre recommened sets to use together?
19:37<phin>or is it just sort of hit or miss?
19:40<SpComb>Ammller: what do you mean, legal?
19:41<Ammller>well, we are allowed to distribute the GRFs because we need exact the same GRFs for every player.
19:42<Ammller>and the pack shouldn't be just a download package
19:43-!-lolman is now known as Zebedee
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19:44-!-Zebedee is now known as Sacro
19:44<Ammller>and because is for the same thing, it would be helpful with grfs already there
19:50<SpComb>Ammller: somehow I feel like I missed some context somewhere, I don't really understand what you're talking about
19:51<Ammller>well, not really important
19:51<Ammller>just thought about that, as I tested your server again
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19:54<SpComb>I guess what you mean to say is that the cooppack should be installed on MyOTTD as common newgrfs?
19:55<Ammller>hmm, yeah, somehow :-)
19:58<jez9999>how can I get the group ID of the group that a given Vehicle is in?
19:59<SmatZ>v->group_id maybe?
20:00<jez9999>i thought that
20:00<jez9999>doesnt seem to be tho
20:01<SmatZ>I am sure it is
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20:22<antihcl>haha, this roundabout I'm making is horrible
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20:46<fjb>Ammller: Your company will be going bankrupt soon.
21:00<Sacro>OpenTTD avec PBS
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22:01<@Belugas>un jour, Sacro, un jour...
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23:04<antihcl>aaa train crash
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23:27<Rubidium>why do people who want to speak to me go offline 'just' before I'm back?
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23:51<De_Ghosty>they are the kgb
23:51<De_Ghosty>bend on driving u insane
---Logclosed Tue Mar 18 00:00:09 2008