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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-03-31

---Logopened Mon Mar 31 00:00:31 2008
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02:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12491 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (42 files):
02:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Documentation: made parts of the comments more uniform (@file header and class header)
02:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Documentation: fixed the order of functions: SetNN before GetNN, Build after Set/Get, Remove after Build. This makes reading the docs more easy
02:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Documentation: Removed unneeded comments which were direct copy/paste all over the place
02:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: missing $Id$ tags
02:33-!-Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
02:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12492 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_tile.hpp ai_vehiclelist.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: missing propset
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02:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12493 /branches/noai/ (9 files in 4 dirs): [NoAI] -Remove [API CHANGE]: AIPathFinder should never been part of this API (more like a contrib or extended something)
02:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12494 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r12493: update MSVC project files when removing files
02:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12495 /trunk/src/ (18 files): -Codechange: reduce the dependency on newgrf_station.h (especially because newgrf_station.h includes a lot of stuff).
02:45<Celestar>@openttd bugs
02:45<@DorpsGek>Celestar: Open Bugs: 30; Not assigned: 22; Closed this week: 7; Opened this week: 17
02:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12496 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (37 files):
02:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Documentation: give the .cpp files a nice uniform format too
02:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: fixed the last missing $Id$ and propset
02:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12497 /branches/noai/ (7 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: AIMap.DemolishTile -> AITile.DemolishTile (that makes much more sense, doesn't it? ;))
02:49<Celestar>why does a "sound cracking" bug have "high" severity?
02:50<Patrick`>because it actually affects something the end-user experiences?
02:51<@peter1138>because users think their bug is most important
02:51*Celestar is downgrading it
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02:58<@Rubidium>Celestar: new bugs, most the cause of the RC but none of them are actually interesting :(
03:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12498 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: bring a little 'order' to openttd.cpp's includes and do not 'define' VARDEF for files that do not have them anymore.
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03:04<@peter1138>Just remove all VARDEFs!
03:04<Eddi|zuHause2>what's a VARDEF anyway?
03:04<@peter1138>A lazy construct.
03:04<@Rubidium>that's the final plan, but this is just preventing people from adding VARDEFs to most of the code-base
03:05<Eddi|zuHause2>and what's bad about laziness ;)
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03:05<Celestar>VARDEFs suck
03:06<Celestar>variable definitions shouldn't be in headers.
03:06<Celestar>whatever ... /me goes to work
03:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12499 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: some coding style tweaks for network_internal.h.
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03:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12500 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (6 files): [NoAI] -Documentation: many comment changes, mostly Capitals and lines end with a dot. Makes doxygen look pretty :)
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03:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12501 /trunk/ (16 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: split signs.h.
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03:26<Celestar>wow Rubidium :)
03:27<Celestar>you're really pissed at the state of the header files aren't you?
03:27<@Rubidium>somewhat yeah
03:27<Celestar>not without reason ;)
03:27*peter1138 ponders testing the build time now
03:29*Celestar wonders whether Rubidium will help him with syncing NewGRF_ports now ;)
03:29<Celestar>peter1138: is it me or did the build time get out of hand?
03:29<@peter1138>it did, not helped by moving to c++ but it got worse after that
03:30*peter1138 times it
03:30<Celestar>peter1138: debug or no debug? ;)
03:30<ln>just buy 4-core machines, people
03:30<@Rubidium>some templates are pretty heavy
03:30<@peter1138>but i like my 8 year old machine, ln
03:31<caladan>hmm, use some distcc? :D
03:31<Celestar>man ... LHR's terminal 5 is really a disaster, right? ;)
03:31<Eddi|zuHause2>a what?
03:31<Celestar>forget it ? ;)
03:31<@Rubidium>I just thought they continued to improve their record
03:32<Celestar>Rubidium: yeah, apart from the fact that they ask people not to bring luggage because the luggage system doesn't work, everything else is ok.
03:32<Eddi|zuHause2>Celestar: well, i haven't been to that many airports
03:32<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: Heathrow sucks. Ass.
03:33<Celestar>it's _almost_ as bad as Charles-de-Gaulle
03:34<caladan>and not as bad as the one in Warsaw ;-)
03:34<Eddi|zuHause2>what are the criteria for judging the suckiness of an airport?
03:34<@Rubidium>number of lost pieces of luggage a minute and number of canceled flight per minute being more than resp. 50 and 1?
03:35<@peter1138>Monty Python already did a song about it...
03:35<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, and you already have a patch for it ;)
03:35<@peter1138># And I'm worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow
03:36<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: lost luggage, delays, cancellations, signage, roofs falling on passengers....
03:36<Celestar>:o 3:39 for building ottd
03:37<Celestar>caladan: _nothing_ sucks as much as does LHR or CDG. well ... JFK maybe
03:37<Eddi|zuHause2>i've been to munich airport some 10 years ago
03:37<@peter1138>real 4m48.500s
03:37<@peter1138>user 3m19.248s
03:37<@peter1138>sys 0m28.458s
03:38<caladan>Celestar: you see, the airport in warsaw is almost in the center of city. no way to get there in rush hours, and its overcrowded :]
03:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12502 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_engine.hpp ai_industry.hpp ai_map.hpp ai_marine.hpp): [NoAI] -Documentation: even more comment consistancy
03:38<Celestar>158.721u 16.273s 3:39.05 79.8% 0+0k 0+0io 14pf+0w
03:39<Eddi|zuHause2>i shoul have timed svn up first ;)
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03:39<Celestar>hey Eddi|zuHause2
03:40*Celestar wonders which part of the compilation is so slow :S
03:40<@peter1138>yapf ;)
03:40<Eddi|zuHause2>but yapf didn't really change
03:40<Celestar> find *.h | wc -l
03:41<Celestar>that's a crapload
03:41<Celestar>or a fuckton
03:41<ln>real 0m28.633s
03:41<ln>user 1m32.208s
03:43<@Rubidium>Celestar: yes, it's a lot but reducing the size (and thus dependency on other headers) of the headers helps quite a bit in compile time
03:44<Celestar>I quite agree
03:44<Celestar>I was just wondering ;)
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03:45<Eddi|zuHause2>real 4m39.522s
03:45<Eddi|zuHause2>user 3m36.342s
03:45<Eddi|zuHause2>sys 0m14.665s
03:45<@Rubidium>Celestar, about NewGRF_ports: I've quite given up on that one
03:46<Celestar>Rubidium: the syncing?
03:46<@Rubidium>it getting finished within reasonable time
03:46<Celestar>Rubidium: it basically is finished ;)
03:47<Celestar>we need one more newgrf features (station animation) and it's done.
03:47<Celestar>grep -c "^#include" * | awk -F: '{print $2 " " $1}' | sort -n | tail -3
03:47<Celestar>48 train_cmd.cpp
03:47<Celestar>50 main_gui.cpp
03:47<Celestar>70 openttd.cpp
03:47<@Rubidium>Celestar: no it is NOT
03:47<Celestar>70 includes? :o
03:47<Celestar>Rubidium: what's missing?
03:47<@Rubidium>Celestar: and they're all needed -> ergo openttd.cpp has become one big mess
03:47<@Rubidium>Celestar: it is one big copy-paste which is already unmaintainable
03:48<@Rubidium>furthermore there are todos and warnings all over the place
03:48<Celestar>Rubidium: I'll see through the newgrf_port code and see what can be done.
03:48<@Rubidium>coding style suck as much as T5
03:48<Celestar>that's bad.
03:48<Celestar>so you suggest starting over?
03:48<@Rubidium>and RichK couldn't be 'bothered' about coding style because he first wanted to get it working
03:49<@Rubidium>that reminds me of TGP which also took a few months of work after he said it was finished
03:49<Eddi|zuHause2>i have voiced my concern about "first get it working" before...
03:50<Eddi|zuHause2>only i have no voice
03:50<Eddi|zuHause2>so nobody listens ;)
03:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12503 /branches/noai/ (140 files in 7 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r12461:12501.
03:51<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: only RichK doesn't listen
03:51<Celestar>Rubidium: so .. start over and implement the features in an orderly style?
03:51<@Rubidium>Celestar: and RichK's last episode doesn't encourage me to continue with his work either.
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03:55<Celestar>what happened?
03:56<@Rubidium>he basically said that we didn't plan ahead because we didn't add much unused free bytes to the map in one go
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03:58<Celestar>what do we need that 1 bit for?
03:58<@Rubidium>for his 'all climate world map' idea
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03:59<@Rubidium>but that isn't the problem, it's just that he blames us for trying to keep the savegame file as small as possible with the current features
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04:00<Eddi|zuHause2>i think he missed the point that the extension of the map array was not meant to be static, but that it can easily be extended further if necessary
04:02<Eddi|zuHause2>and this was a suggestion independent from richk:
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04:08<Celestar>Rubidium: I'll try to re-implement, k?
04:08<@peter1138>most of it just station code anyway
04:09<Celestar>peter1138: will you help? ;)
04:09<@Rubidium>Celestar: better get station anims working first :)
04:10*peter1138 coughs at his patch
04:10<Celestar>good point. peter1138 has it working? ;)
04:11<@peter1138>as in, probably but not completely tested
04:11<@peter1138>and some triggers are not in place
04:13<@peter1138>gah, aero is shit
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04:23<amix>just want you to know that SDL is now ported to symbian mobiles
04:23<amix>openttd on Nokia E90 would be great!
04:25<Celestar>amix: what's the display size on that device?
04:25<Trond>is the big screenshot option broken, or is it just that my system cannot handle the huge png/bmp files?
04:25<@Rubidium>Trond: broken in what manner?
04:25<Phantasm>Celestar: 800x352
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04:25<Trond>broken in the manner that I get a file I cannot open...
04:25<@Rubidium>amix: AFAIK there's already a symbian port somewhere
04:26<Phantasm>How well does it run? As long as you don't play bigger maps than 64x64? ;P
04:26<@Rubidium>then you most liky do not have enough memory
04:26<Trond>2gb isnt enough for a 600mb file?
04:26<Phantasm>Might be so.
04:26<Trond>the files come out around 600mb :P
04:27<amix>Celestar: 800x352
04:27<@Rubidium>Trond: not when it's highly compressed and your view is lame enough to uncompress it in memory
04:27<Gekz>Phantasm: I ran OpenTTD on my Palm TX
04:27<Gekz>16MB of ram
04:27<Gekz>played 256x256 maps
04:27<Gekz>do not use the new ai >_>
04:27<Trond>my view? meaning the app I use?
04:27<amix>Rubidium: there is?
04:28<amix>psp have it
04:28<@Rubidium>well, it should work on E60
04:28<amix>openttd on e90 would be great
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04:28<Celestar>amix: that should be enough :)
04:28<Eddi|zuHause2>i have had problems with big png files independent from ottd
04:29<amix>E90 got 128mb internal mem
04:29<amix>got PowerVR 3D
04:29<Phantasm>Out of which about 80 MB is free after the OS and stuff.
04:29<amix>330MHz ARM
04:29<amix>Phantasm: no
04:29<Celestar>80 MB ..
04:29<Trond>ok eddi, I guess I'll try with a smaller map and see if that works... I tried open them with irfanview, paintshoppro, paint...
04:30<Phantasm>amix: 128 MB out of which the OS uses about 50 MB.
04:30<amix>Celestar: well.. lots of programs is installed on internal mem
04:30<@Rubidium>Trond: what size map did you screendump by the way?
04:30<amix>also some pics etc
04:30<amix>which takes space
04:31<Trond>I think its 1024x2048
04:31<amix>make use of the memcard would be nice
04:31<Phantasm>amix: Don't talk about memory when refering to storage space.
04:31<amix>Phantasm: hrhr
04:31<amix>i am an amigan
04:31<amix>we store stuff in ram disk
04:31<@Rubidium>@openttd calc 1024x32x2048x64/1024
04:31<@Rubidium>@calc 1024x32x2048x64/1024
04:31<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Error: invalid syntax (line 1)
04:31<@peter1138>* ;)
04:31<@Rubidium>@calc 1024*32*2048*64/1024
04:31<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 4194304
04:32<@Rubidium>so it'd just need 4 GB to uncompress the png
04:32<amix>quake 1
04:32<amix>and quake 3
04:32<amix>runs on e90 now
04:32<amix>runs nice even
04:32<Phantasm>E90 got 256 MB of NAND that allows a max of 128 MB user storage.. It has 128 MB of SDRAM memory of which about 80 MB is free after OS and such.. Upto 4 GB MicroSD card is officially supported.
04:32<@Rubidium>and that means that only 64 bits binaries can open the png 'the lame way'
04:32<Trond>that explains it I guess, thanks rubidium :)
04:33<Gekz>Rubidium: the lame way/
04:33<Trond>what programs does not open it the lame way then? :D
04:33<amix>Phantasm: then symbian supports virtualmem i guess
04:33<amix>since quake 2 requires a lot
04:34<mrfrenzy>ottd runs really nice on sony ericsson M600i, BUT, the small screen makes it impossible to play
04:34<amix>more than 64mb
04:34<Phantasm>I'm sure symbian port of Q2 won't require more than 80 MB.
04:34<Phantasm>Does the symbian port of Q2 run on say E70?
04:34<amix>openttd port would?
04:34<amix>Phantasm: try
04:35<amix>Phantasm: openttd could use of 3D to make openttd run faster also
04:35<@Rubidium>Trond: no idea, but maybe some of the command line conversion tools
04:35<@peter1138>use 3d? hah
04:35<@Rubidium>amix: please provide proof for that statement
04:35<Phantasm>25-30 MB of free RAM for symbian Q2.
04:36<amix>Rubidium: what statement?
04:36<Phantasm>Some more for hardware renderer.
04:36<@peter1138>10-20MB RAM is enough for openttd
04:36<@Rubidium>amix: that 3D make openttd run faster
04:36<amix>quake 2 uses gl on e90
04:36<amix>makes it runs faster
04:36<amix>same with amiga emulator
04:37<amix>with gl, it renders faster
04:37<Phantasm>Software rendering uses the CPU, while hardware rendering uses the GPU more or less.
04:37<Phantasm>So, using hardware rendering, more of the CPU should be free for other stuff.
04:38*Rubidium wonders whether gl can handle 10.000+ textures, especially on a symbian
04:39<amix>well, e90 got wlan, hsdpa support. playing openttd on it would be great. a neat feature for it would be keymapping offcourse. build with one key, move arround with others. in that way, a mobile version would be nice
04:39<@Rubidium>or even *many* more when you have many NewGRFs loaded
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04:41<amix>duke nukem 3d is now out also
04:42<amix>Phantasm: i am using morphos, macosx, symbian and windows
04:42<amix>i love morphos, idore macosx, use symbian, play in windows
04:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12504 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (9 files): [NoAI] -Documentation: the last few files which now are consistent in their comments (anyway, so I hope :))
04:43<Gekz>CIA-1: Baisez tu!
04:43<Phantasm>amix: Which windows?
04:44<amix>win2k, xp
04:44<amix>i dont like vista
04:44<Phantasm>You should use 2003 or 2008 server as workstation.
04:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12505 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (7 files): [NoAI] -Documentation: still forgot some files ;) (minor stuff, capitals mostly)
04:45<@Rubidium>hmm... 2008 server... oh, lets add a big fat 3D graphics card to the requirements of our server software
04:45<Celestar>you should use a proper OS as a workstation.
04:45<Eddi|zuHause2>Gekz: "-ez" and "tu" don't really match
04:45<amix>Phantasm: i use morphos 99% of the time
04:46<amix>rest is macosx
04:46<@Rubidium>because maybe you want to play CounterStrike on your server
04:46<Celestar>Rubidium: yeah. possibly Quad SLI so that the system becomes stable.
04:46<Phantasm>Rubidium: There is also server core for 2008 server that has no GUI.
04:46<Celestar>there are also OSes that actually WORK as a server.
04:46<Phantasm>Only command line interface.
04:46<Celestar>for example linux
04:46<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause2: I fail grammar in frenfh
04:46<Eddi|zuHause2>i concur ;)
04:46<Phantasm>Not that I would use windows * server as server.
04:47<@Rubidium>Phantasm: and you think that the gui-less server gets used? Really...?
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04:47<Gekz>I spelt french wrong
04:47*Gekz is on a rol
04:47*Gekz kills thyself
04:47<Phantasm>Rubidium: Prolly not.. But I don't think it needs much of a video card to work even with gui. All aero and such are disabled by default..
04:48<@Rubidium>oh... the boss doesn't pay my: how to use the keyboard bootcamp course of 14 days with Microsoft, well, then add the big fat 3D card to the server
04:48*Celestar is running SLES10 on all servers
04:48<Celestar>and non-Windows ans non-linux OSes on firewalls
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04:48<Phantasm>But for windows workstation, 2008 server is like vista without all the bloat and such (you can even have it without windows media player).. And 2003 server is like xp.
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04:50<Maedhros>Gekz: "thyself" refers to the person you're talking to :p
04:52<@Rubidium>hmm... wonders how much 'no-GUI' is when one is being able to play solitaire
04:53<Phantasm>Rubidium: I don't think one can play solitaire on server core install.
04:53<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm sure there are aalib based X servers ;)
04:53<@Rubidium>Phantasm: <- rethink your statement please
04:54<Phantasm>Light GUI then. ;P
04:54<Celestar>"(And that's including the 2 reboots, hardware detection, and everything!)"
04:55<Celestar>why the FUCK does an installation need 2 reboots?!
04:55<Celestar>ONE ok. but two?
04:55<Maedhros>"The thing is lean and mean, and can run very well in just half a gig of RAM"
04:55*Celestar wonders why they don't even pack a proper editor :S
04:55<Phantasm>Half a gig of ram and no swap and you can't start notepad on vista. ;P
04:55<Eddi|zuHause2>windows always needed two reboots
04:56<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: how many kernels does it have?!
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04:56<Eddi|zuHause2>one after it set up the installation system, and one after it configured the hardware
04:57*peter1138 ponders getting a Q6600 and clocking it at 3GHz
04:57<Phantasm>peter1138: Why only 3?
04:57<Phantasm>And if you want 60% the heat, get Q9450.
04:57<@peter1138>because that's the safest overclock, heh
04:57<Phantasm>Those are properly available now.
04:57<Phantasm>Safest... Any overclock is safe IF you test it is safe.. Nothing is safe before you test it.
04:57<Phantasm>Not even default clock.
04:58<Phantasm>Q9450 might not overclock that much though..
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05:02<@peter1138>Q9450 costs considerably more than the Q6600
05:03<@peter1138>and as you say, as it already has a 1333 FSB, it won't overclock so well
05:03<Celestar>I'd go Q9300
05:03<Phantasm>FSB won't matter if you get suitable motherboard.
05:04<@peter1138>might just stick with the E8400
05:04<Phantasm>Celestar: And half the L2?
05:04<@peter1138>One core is enough for ottd, so... ;)
05:04<Celestar>Phantasm: and?
05:04<Celestar>Phantasm: it's faster than the Q6600
05:05<@peter1138>Q6600 @ 3GHz is fast ;)
05:05<Phantasm>Celestar: I'm actually not sure about that.
05:05*Celestar doesn't like overclocking
05:05<Celestar>Phantasm: in every review it is
05:05<@peter1138>hence why i will probably stick to the E8400
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05:07<Phantasm>Does Q9300 OC well?
05:07<Phantasm>If not, then perhaps Q6600 is best cheap one for OC.. But otherwise Q9* are better quads as they only produce about 60% the heat.
05:08<Celestar>Phantasm: and are faster clock-for-clock. not much, but a little
05:08<Celestar>and the Q9300 seems to go 3.2-3.4 on air ...
05:08<Phantasm>Nothing special then.
05:09<Phantasm>About same for Q9450... Effectively not worth the effort.
05:09<@peter1138>2.5 -> 3.4 is quite a lot
05:10<amix>you know where the symbian build is?
05:10<amix>i would love to be a betatester
05:10<@peter1138>Hmm, E8400, £124.99, Q6600, £125
05:10<Phantasm>I won't bother trying to OC Q9450.. Even if it may go to 3-3.4 GHz, the OC is so small it is not worth the more expensive mobo etc and all the effort.
05:10<amix>ive been betatester for wirelessirc, delfmpeg etc
05:11<Phantasm>For OC to be worth trying, it would take about 30% guaranteed OC without voltage raise.
05:12<Phantasm>Some OC tests for Q9450 have used quite a lot of extra voltage to achieve the OC and as such it easily gets out of the quiet comp..
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05:13<Phantasm>PSU starts to make too much noise when the CPU eats too much power (along with 3D card and all the other stuff).
05:13<Celestar>Phantasm: page 4 and 5 are interesting as well (vs 6600 and vs 8500)
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05:15<@peter1138>Phantasm: that's the point, the Q6600 does not need a more expensive board to overclock, as even the cheap ones do an FSB faster than the CPU
05:16*peter1138 underclocks his Athlon XP 2000+ to 1250MHz atm
05:16<Phantasm>Yep, that is why I don't bother trying to OC Q9450.. And I ordered it because of the less heat than Q6600.
05:17*Celestar doesn't OC
05:17<Phantasm>My current one is 2.5 GHz opteron 165 (1.8 GHz normally).
05:19<Phantasm>Celestar: The OCs done there make the power consumption go havoc.
05:19<Eddi|zuHause2>who remembers the days when 25MHz was a high end PC, and they had "turbo" buttons to downclock them?
05:20<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: I remember my first C64 ....
05:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12506 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/Doxyfile:
05:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added Doxyfile in src/ai/api to generate the AIDocs (as on )
05:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: REQUIRES Doxygen >= 1.5.4, or documentation will be a mess
05:20<Celestar> <= this one
05:21<Eddi|zuHause2>the glorious days of DOSShell!
05:21<Phantasm>I remember my first Aquarius.
05:21<Eddi|zuHause2>which was just a lousy attempt to beat the dominant Norton Commander
05:22<Eddi|zuHause2>and nobody heard of "browser wars" yet
05:22<Phantasm>I had a game book for it.. The book had source codes of games I could type in the machine to play.. And then record them to audi o casettes.
05:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12507 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (Doxyfile ai_object.cpp ai_object.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: enable Doxyfile warning about missing params and fix 3 missing params in AIObject
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05:27<@peter1138>Phantasm: basic listings were common in those days...
05:27<Celestar>FFVII hangs in the final battle
05:28<Celestar>how .. :P
05:28<Gekz>the situation lets you be free
05:28<Gekz>you realise that the game owned you up until this point
05:28<Gekz>you may leave now
05:28<Celestar>I will
05:28*Celestar gets himself lunch
05:32<ln>Gekz: your lol quota for today has been exceeded.
05:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12508 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_engine.hpp ai_tile.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: @note that refer to @return should come after @return, not before @param
05:33<@peter1138>bloody noai spam ;p
05:34<Gekz>ln: lololooloololooloolol
05:34<Gekz>ça va?
05:34<ln>English only.
05:35<Celestar>The russians have built the first prototype of a mobile nuclear power plant
05:35<Eddi|zuHause2>does it fit in a pocket yet?
05:36<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: no, it's a naval vehicle.
05:36<Celestar>about the size of a large ferry
05:36<Celestar>enough to supply a town of 200.000 people
05:36<Eddi|zuHause2>great... as if illegal disposal of waste is not a big enough problem already
05:37*Celestar fails to see the connection
05:37<Gekz>russian + nuclear waste + waterways unguarded = glowing penis syndrome
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05:38<Gekz>"IT TINGLES MOMMY!" "Don't touch it."
05:38<edeca>Hrm, does the UK train renewal set not work with current openttd? It says that the climate bit is incorrect no matter what I set it to :(
05:38<Celestar>well, apparently the idea seems as China, Namibia and South Korea already showed interest in purchasing some.
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05:40<Celestar>the mobile NPP costs apparently only 300 million EUR
05:40<Phantasm>As if Russia wasn't bad enough.. Now they are giving it away to China etc...
05:41<Gekz>Lets give idiots da bomb so they may spam
05:42<Gekz>All your base are belong to us
05:42<Celestar>Phantasm: giving what away exactly?
05:42<Celestar>it's not that the Chinese dunno how to build a NPP
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05:45<Phantasm>Yea, but they haven't done it.
05:45<Gekz>the chinese are busy breeding like chinese people.
05:45<Gekz>and making smog clouds.
05:45<Phantasm>It is so much easier to dump radioactive stuff from mobile npp than from one on land.
05:45<Gekz>not really
05:45<Phantasm>A naval vessel + big enough npp -> they can effectively load any radioactive material there and just drop it all they care.
05:46<Gekz>"Alright kids, powers out until we empty this steam chubby!"
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05:46<Eddi|zuHause2>Phantasm: there are international institutions that watch very closely which bit of radioactive material goes where
05:46<Celestar>.oO(people have VERY weird ideas about nuclear power)
05:46<Gekz>too bad china says go away
05:46<Phantasm>Eddi|zuHause2: Yes, and how do they plan on doing that on every naval vessel carrying npp?
05:47<Celestar>Phantasm: do you know how many nuclear powered vessels we have today?
05:47<Phantasm>Celestar: As long as they are small enough there isn't much of a problem.
05:47<Celestar>Russia has a fleet of like 100 nuclear ice-breakers alone ...
05:47<Celestar>Phantasm: I don't see size being an issue
05:47<Phantasm>But capably of supplying a town of 200k people gives some size.
05:47<Phantasm>The bigger it is the easier it is to hide some extra stuff around.
05:48<edeca>Most people don't realise that half of the power plant at Chernobyl was active until way into the 1990s :)
05:48<Gekz>I dont like nuclear anything
05:48<Celestar>Phantasm: yes, that's 60MW. that's 1/4th of what the Nimitz-Class has.
05:48<edeca>Gekz: Hope you never get cancer then..
05:48<Gekz>edeca: so do I
05:48<edeca>Gekz: Heh, well it's all radiation :)
05:48<Celestar>cancer has been around since the beginning of life ... it's nothing to do with nuclear power plants.
05:48<Gekz>too bad its a concentrated dose of carbonfuck
05:49<edeca>Celestar: I wasn't suggesting that
05:49<Celestar>edeca: good ;)
05:49<edeca>Celestar: But modern treatments rely on blatting your cells with radiation :P
05:49<edeca>Celestar: As do some forms of scans where they inject you with radioactive materials :)
05:49<Celestar>edeca: there are even scans where they use antimatter
05:49<Celestar>called "PET"
05:50<Gekz>no they dont
05:50<Celestar>Gekz: YES they do
05:50<Gekz>NO THEY DO NOT
05:50*Celestar suggests that you have nfi
05:50*Gekz suggests you want to have nfi
05:50<Celestar>Gekz: <= for the beginners
05:51<Gekz>I'M SORRY, I'M NOT GAY
05:51<edeca>I still stand by my previous point. So many people say "radiation is bad, look at Chernobyl!" then argue like schoolgirls when you tell them it was generating power until 2000
05:51<Gekz>lol, caps.
05:51<edeca>s/radiation/nuklar powar/
05:51<Celestar>what does being gay having to do with anti-matter?
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05:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12509 /branches/noai/ (8 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: add some missing return/parameter documentation; probably not the last, but Doxygen couldn't find these.
05:52<edeca>Celestar: Ah, that's the form of scanning I was referring to
05:52<edeca>Celestar: Now I know the name, ta!
05:52<Eddi|zuHause2>in what kind of physics a positron is antimatter?
05:52<Celestar>edeca: in every
05:52<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: in the Standard Model?!
05:52<edeca>I imagined antimatter as some sort of science fiction stuff, but meh :)
05:53<Celestar>a Positron is an anti-electron.
05:53<edeca>I want to edit that picture so it says "COMPUTAR" below the terminal.. mwuhaha
05:53<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, probably i mixed up stuff
05:54<Celestar>same mass, same spin, same group, same generation, opposite charge => anti-particle
05:55*Celestar wonders why Gekz is so quiet all of a sudden :P
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05:55<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, it's the dangerous kind of half-knowledge about quantum mechanics ;)
05:56<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: lol yeah. the half that goes "boom" or the half that goes "bam!" ?
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06:00<edeca>Does anybody here know why the uk train renewal set doesn't work with my current openttd though (openttd + yapp from buildottd). I mean, that's got to be more important than anti-matter ;)
06:01<Celestar>edeca: does it work with vanilla openttd?
06:02<edeca>Good question, let's try
06:02<Maedhros>edeca: which climate are you trying to use ukrs in?
06:03<edeca>Sub tropical or temperate
06:03<edeca>In the newgrf window it says that the climate bit is wrong when set to 1 2 or 3
06:03<Celestar>set it to 0? ;)
06:04<@Rubidium>so you're in subtropical and it (UKRS) needs to have temperate
06:04<edeca>Heh, that's not an option either. Darn, it works in vanilla. Must be broken buildottd or yapp
06:04<edeca>Rubidium: Sorry, I meant arctic
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06:05<edeca>OK, it works now.. I must have been smoking something earlier :|
06:06<edeca>Shame that I'd just started breaking even in my old game without it.
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06:06<Phantasm>Aww, Q9450 has half the L1 cache per core than Opteron 165. :/
06:06<edeca>I might have to compile on Windows myself though, too many patches I miss :(
06:10<@peter1138>Phantasm: it has more cores then ;)
06:11<Eddi|zuHause2>so? you get 2% more cache misses then...
06:12<Phantasm>Opteron has 64+64 kB L1 data+inst. And Q9450 has 32+32 kB L1 data+inst.
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06:17<Gekz>and they both suck
06:17<Gekz>get over it
06:17<@peter1138>386 must win, as it has no cache misses...
06:19<Celestar>when was L1 cache first introduced?
06:28<@peter1138>For intel, it was the 486
06:29<edeca>1989 in the 486
06:29<edeca>And 1995 for L2 cache by the looks of it
06:29<Celestar>P-1 right?
06:29<@peter1138>hehe, 800 nm technology :D
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06:30<@peter1138>8KB of L1 cache.
06:31<Gekz>does anyone here speak french
06:31<Gekz>because I need help lol
06:31<Gekz>ln: shhh
06:31<Celestar>only if I'm forced to :P
06:31<Gekz>i just need to know if this is valid
06:31<Gekz>"Ma mere nom <name>."
06:34<Celestar>MA mere <name> I'd say
06:34<Celestar> <= lol :)
06:35<edeca>What's even more scary is that we'll be laughing at the consideration of a processor with only 4 cores and only 128K L1 cache in 20 years ;)
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06:38<Celestar> <= LOL
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06:38<Celestar>this is hilarious
06:39<edeca>Itawhat? :)
06:39<Celestar>well done Intel (=
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06:41<Gekz>lol fail
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06:48<Eddi|zuHause2>Celestar: does that picture imply that they released it 4 years too late?
06:48<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: appears so. Possibly ;)
06:49<Celestar>4 years late and a failure ... I think someone found himself a new job ....
06:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12510 /branches/noai/ (12 files in 5 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIError, which allows you to catch errors triggered by commands (Morloth)
06:57<edeca>4 years late and a failure, would make a perfect policitian
06:57<edeca>Even better if I could spell
06:58<Celestar>Rubidium: peter1138: so the recommended procedure for newgrf_ports is re-implementation, do I read correctly?
07:00<edeca>What is the chance of patches like yapp or the land cloning tool making it into trunk eventually? I'm sure it must get asked lots but they are the only two reasons I don't play trunk at the moment
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07:02<Eddi|zuHause2>yapp is very likely to get into trunk, if by "land cloning" you mean "copy paste", that is doubtful to be included
07:02<edeca>Cool, how come?
07:03<edeca>I'm glad about yapp, that's one of my biggest annoyances :)
07:03<edeca>copy paste because of multiplayer?
07:06<Eddi|zuHause2> <- this is a much more interesting pictures
07:08<@peter1138>stupid dates
07:08<Eddi|zuHause2>yes they are
07:09<@peter1138>Where's ARM on that?
07:09<@peter1138>or rather
07:09<@peter1138>what is the "top 500"?
07:10<Eddi|zuHause2>the top 500 supercomputers?
07:13<Phantasm>Copy/paste could be made such that for multiplayer, the host could enable/disable it..
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07:15<edeca>Yes, hence me wondering why it couldn't be in trunk
07:15<edeca>Unless it is simply too difficult to keep up to date with map changes
07:15<edeca>I haven't played in a while and there are lots of neat things in trunk now :)
07:15<edeca>Like the little percentage above a loading train
07:15<Eddi|zuHause2>there are also implementation details about it
07:16<Eddi|zuHause2>look for previous discussions on the matter
07:16<edeca>And grouping trains, mm. That's nice.
07:17<Celestar>I really should play it at some point :P
07:17<edeca>Hrm, how about % loading? That would be nice too, I miss that
07:17<edeca>The last time I played was when miniin was updated regularly, heh
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07:30<Celestar>what about FS#1888? Switching grfs during the game is not really recommended, is it?
07:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12511 /branches/noai/ (8 files in 5 dirs): [NoAI] -Add (WIP): AI Debug GUI. For now it is a stripped down copy of performance details. In future it will allow reloading of AI, changing settings, and reading the log of the AI
07:32*Celestar wonders whether we should disable loading grfs during a running game
07:34<Ammler>no :-( please not
07:34<Gekz>Celestar: DO IT
07:34<Gekz>Celestar: or at least, without them enabling a patch
07:34<Maedhros>some of them are harmless - adding station / house grfs shouldn't cause a problem
07:35<Maedhros>removing houses shouldn't be a problem either (i'm not sure about stations)
07:35<Celestar>Maedhros: true. but maybe we should "mark" the savegame so that we know right away.
07:35<Ammler>at least it should be possible to add industries
07:35<Maedhros>Celestar: that's a good idea, yes
07:36<Celestar>and then trash all bugs that have such savegames
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07:36<Gekz>just for giggles
07:36<Gekz>make it increment every time they change the grf
07:37<Gekz>so you can say LOL NOOB YOU CHANGED IT 13421e3 times
07:37<Ammler>Gekz: there is already a msg box...
07:37<Gekz>Ammler: idiots disregard them
07:37<Gekz>thats why windows is such a success
07:38<Gekz>"Press OK to proceed to destroy your system."
07:38<Ammler>maybe you could take the time for fixing that, instead of blocking user from doing it
07:38<Gekz>block thjem
07:39<Gekz>they need to be protected from themselves
07:39<Maedhros>there are some things that can't be fixed - articulated vehicles becoming non-articulated, vehicles running on the wrong track-type
07:39<Maedhros>trains finding themselves on parts of stations that they're not supposed to be able to use
07:39<Ammler>Maedhros: adding newindustries to a scenario should be possible
07:39<Ammler>(not changing)
07:40<Maedhros>mmm. i don't know much about how newindustries works in openttd, to be honest
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07:42<Ammler>the problem with it, some properities won't go to the save after generation the map and adding GRF after
07:42<Ammler>something with cargo types
07:42<Ammler>you don't get income for example sand, as coal works
07:43<Ammler>means, you need to know, BEFORE you creating a scenario, which cargo types you like to use
07:45<Ammler>and does also mean, you can't use existing GRFs
07:45<Ammler>(existing scenarios)
07:47<Mirrakor>wouldn't it be possible to allow "graphi change only" mode or something like this? Ignoring the other settings
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07:57<Ammler>[13:47] <Mirrakor> wouldn't it be possible to allow "graphi change only" mode or something like this? Ignoring the other settings <-- useless for newindustries, you need to alter save for cargo types
07:58<Mirrakor>for newindustries yes - but for other stuff?
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08:05<Eddi|zuHause2><Mirrakor> wouldn't it be possible to allow "graphi change only" mode or something like this? Ignoring the other settings <- some special grfs can be put under [newgrf-static], these are graphical only
08:06<Eddi|zuHause2>but the grfs have to be prepared for that, it won't work with most grfs
08:06<Eddi|zuHause2>examples for this are tree replacement, catenary graphics and some bridge replacements
08:07<Ammler>i.e. all OpenGFX grfs except landscape would work with static
08:07<Ammler>(landscape doesn't because of the rivers)
08:08<Eddi|zuHause2>it'd kinda make sense to split the rivers from the landscape, or not?
08:10<Mirrakor>if a train station accepts items - does it also mean it provides?
08:11<Mirrakor>do I only get them from industries?
08:12<Maedhros>no, houses can produce things as well
08:13<Ammler>you could use transfer
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08:14<Mirrakor>oh sorry - I guess I phrased my question wrong: when it says "station xyz, accepts: mails, items, passengers" - does that mean I can get items from this station and transfer it to another station(which also accepts items)
08:16<Maedhros>not unless you use transfers - otherwise the items will be delivered to the station and effectively disappear
08:17<Maedhros>if you use transfers you can make them accumulate at that station instead so they can then be picked up again and delivered to the other station
08:18<Mirrakor>so if build a transfer depot next to the train station the items can go on rthe rails?
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08:26<edeca>There's no such thing as a transfer depot..
08:26<edeca>You just include "transfer" in the orders
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08:27<Mirrakor>sorry, I meant a truck depot
08:28<edeca>Ah, yes, you can transfer between trucks/trains/planes
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08:28<edeca>That works really nicely in some cases
08:30<Mirrakor>edeca: now I've the following situation - I build two truck stations(which says "accepting: mail, items") - now I want to transfer those items.. but it doesn't seem to work - the truck keeps empty
08:31<edeca>Well if you're definitely using the right sorts of trucks and something is producing 'items', I'm unsure why
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08:31<Eddi|zuHause2>Mirrakor: accepting != producing
08:31<Eddi|zuHause2>goods are produced in a factory or a saw mill
08:31<Mirrakor>yeah - that's exactly the point/problem - what does really produce such stuff?
08:31<Eddi|zuHause2>or a refinery
08:32<Mirrakor>okay, they're usually out of town
08:32<Eddi|zuHause2>but only if you deliver raw materials
08:32<edeca>Ah, sorry! :)
08:32<edeca>I get it now
08:32<Eddi|zuHause2>like if you transport wood from a forest to a saw mill, the saw mill will turn this wood into goods
08:32<ln>given the number of recent Nazi-related movies, is there some company somewhere that is specialized in manufacturing uniforms for movie studios?
08:33<Mirrakor>ln: yesterday I thought the same - they certainly could share some stuff..
08:33<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: i have no idea
08:33<Mirrakor>Eddi|zuHause2: so is it actually resonable to invest in goods?
08:34<edeca>Mirrakor: Definitely!
08:34<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: usual problem is to justify that nazi-related stuff is not used for neonazi purposes
08:34<edeca>Mirrakor: If you own the end-to-end goods chain, you'll make lots of money
08:34<edeca>Mirrakor: Start by developing routes from the raw materials to the factory
08:34<edeca>Mirrakor: Build up a town so it accepts goods
08:34<ln>and question #2, does the copyright holder of the uniform design get royalties? (if it is a person, certainly he/she has not been dead for 70 years yet)
08:34<edeca>Mirrakor: Then transport the goods to the town
08:34<edeca>ln: Can you copyright a uniform?
08:35<ln>edeca: sure, why not?
08:35<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: german law states that official signs of state institutions have to be public domain
08:35<Mirrakor>ln: I don't think they get royalties, it's for a historic/documental reason
08:35<edeca>ln: I didn't know of a "why not" :)
08:36<ln>Eddi|zuHause2: m'kay
08:36<Eddi|zuHause2>i.e. nobody can collect royalties on flags and stuff
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08:36<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm not sure if that extends to uniforms
08:37<Eddi|zuHause2>but be aware that these "flags and stuff" are subject to other laws beyond copyright
08:37<Mirrakor>edeca: thanks for the info - is there any special kind of industrie you'd invest in?
08:38<edeca>Mirrakor: Meh I play with "allow multiple industries" enabled and look for an area with a number of decent producers
08:38<edeca>Mirrakor: Or pull up the "industry" list (little factory item on toolbar) and look for what is producing the most raw material
08:39<Mirrakor>allow multiple industries - is when you can have different industries in a city?
08:39<Eddi|zuHause2>no, more of the same
08:41<Mirrakor>hm.. it says here there's coal, animals and corn produced
08:41<Mirrakor>do they turn into goods somehow? (sorry for bothering you with endless questions - I didn't found a wiki entry on those specific theme)
08:42<edeca>Animals and corn turn into food
08:42<edeca>Coal doesn't turn into anything except power, but nothing happens with that
08:42<Mirrakor>but who accepts corn?
08:42<edeca>Food processing factory
08:43<edeca>And my brewery, mm, beer
08:43<Mirrakor>hm I don't see such a factory around anywere
08:43<Mirrakor>hm.. so I guess I should go with wood
08:44<Mirrakor>bring it to a saw mil and then directly in the city
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08:53<Osai>hi all
08:55<edeca>Hi Osai
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08:58<edeca>Can you compile trunk with vc2008 express edition?
08:58<edeca>Or am I going to have to pull out my gentoo laptop? :P
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09:07<Mirrakor>sorry *gg* but what was that "Food processing factory" I don't see any
09:07<Ammler>Mirrakor: use arctic clima
09:07<Ammler>or newindustry grf
09:08<Mirrakor>okay, so in a normal clima food isn't useable at all?
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09:14<Sacro>Mirrakor: yes it is
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09:26<Mirrakor>how can I get raw materials such as wood?
09:27<Mirrakor>I mean, there's a wood, but if I place a truck station next to the wood it doesn't accept wood
09:28<Ammler>wood will be accepted by Lumber Mill
09:29<Ammler>the station at Forest will load wood
09:29<Ammler>but first you need to have a truck/train there, which can carry wood
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09:45<Diadem>I just discovered that realistic acceleration removes deceleration by curves
09:45<Diadem>that's nice
09:47<hylje>by some curves
09:48<Diadem>I always thought it slowed down trains
09:48<Diadem>but it speeds them up :)
09:48<hylje>if you have long enough straigth track before and after the curve
09:48<hylje>that depends on train length
09:48<Ammler>Diadem: it makes trains growing not speed up
09:49<Ammler>but thats the perspecitve
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09:51<Diadem>Gonna have to do some testing with it I guess :)
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09:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12512 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r12511: it was pointed out to me to handle widgets with enums... I only wish there was a guideline for their names ;)
09:54<Diadem>So how exactly does it change things?
09:54<Diadem>Realistic acceleration goes uphill a lot faster. It takes corners without slowing at all
09:54<Diadem>What are the drawbacks?
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09:55<Gekz>HOW IRONIC
09:55<edeca>Anybody know if there is an easy way to grab all the dependencies (like png.h) to build openttd on windows?
09:55<edeca>Oh I wish my dekstop was gentoo :|
09:55<+glx>Diadem: with RA, going uphill slows the train down
09:56<keyweed>Diadem: i don't know all the details, but the mass of the train is taken into account on uphill stretches
09:56<+glx>so it's or slow in curves, or slow on slopes
09:56<Diadem>Actually going uphill slows the train down less, a lot less, with RA
09:57<Phantasm>It slows realistically.
09:57<+glx>depends on engin power
09:58<Diadem>I'm using engines with very little power here, steam
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09:58<Diadem>They seem to accelerate slightly slower on straight stretches
09:58<Phantasm>Both low power and low speed.
09:59<Phantasm>I think the physics are somewhat explained in the wiki.
09:59<Diadem>It has very little on it
10:01<Diadem>I was looking at hte page about realistic acceleration
10:03<Diadem>What is the default setting for "Weight multiplier for freight to simulate heavy trains"?
10:11<Phantasm>1 I think.
10:12<Trond>I agree :)
10:12<Diadem>what exactly does it do?
10:12<Trond>funny parking:
10:12<Diadem>it only affects cargo? So loaded trains?
10:13<Diadem>Say you put it on two, then 30 tonnes of coal would 'weigh' 60 tonnes?
10:13<edeca>Urgh, need directx sdk, urgh ;)
10:14<Trond>I have no idea Diadem... wiki says nothing about that option...
10:14<Diadem>Hence me asking here :)
10:14<Diadem>If we could figure it out we could even update the wiki :)
10:15<Trond>yeh, so I guess you try it and see what happens =)
10:15<Diadem>hard to test :)
10:16<Diadem>but let's try
10:16<Trond>I'll get a coffee while you're testing, hehe :P
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10:22<@Belugas>mmmm :D
10:24<Diadem>RA accelerates a lot faster at slower speeds
10:24<Diadem>but less fast near top speed
10:25<Celestar>Diadem: which is how it works IRL
10:26<Diadem>And the weight multiplier does nothing at all
10:28<Diadem>both with and without RA trains accelerate at exactly the same speed wether the weight multiplier is 1 or 10
10:29<Eddi|zuHause2>it only applies for _full_ trains, and not for passengers/mail
10:29<Diadem>I tried it with full trains
10:30<Diadem>To be exact I tried it with a SH'8P' with 9 fully loaded coal trucks behind it
10:30<Eddi|zuHause2>have you tried uphill?
10:30<Diadem>ah no
10:31<Eddi|zuHause2>preferably, going uphill from 0 speed
10:31<Trond>so the weight multipl. only works uphill?
10:33<Eddi|zuHause2>no, but the effects are most visible there
10:33<Gekz>Gute nacht
10:33<Diadem>Eddi|zuHause2: But it only works on full trains, right?
10:34<Eddi|zuHause2>Diadem: empty trains should have no significant weight anyway
10:34<Diadem>I know
10:34<Diadem>But that makes it harder to test, I can't build full trains in the depot )
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10:48<edeca>Anybody here compile on windows? I've got the directx sdk (400MB!) but it doesn't have some of the headers in, where should they come from?
10:48<Eddi|zuHause2>you need an older release
10:48<Forked>the wiki knows
10:48*edeca checks wiki
10:49<Forked>np :) I remember it was a pain
10:49*keyweed praises the wiki
10:51<Trond>BOTTD makes it really easy to compile on windows :)
10:51<Trond>nice pic. in!
10:51<edeca>Trond: Not if you want more than 1 patch :)
10:52<hylje>three Sr2 "marsu"s?!
10:52<Trond>well... tortoise+bottd makes it really easy to compile on windows then
10:52<edeca>Trond: I already have it checked out thanks to svn in cygwin.. can I just patch && compile with bottd?
10:52<Eddi|zuHause2>edeca: the limitation to 1 patch is on purpose
10:53<Trond>I apply several patches on tortoise, then make a patch from that, and use that in BOTTD
10:53<hylje>manual merging ain't very pretty
10:53<edeca>Eddi|zuHause2: It does make sense
10:53<Trond>I use six patches on my own builds with BOTTD that way
10:54<Mirrakor>where can I disable breakdowns? (is it in the Patch -> Vehicle tab?)
10:54<edeca>Trond: That's a good idea, I'll do it like that.
10:54<hylje>Mirrakor: i recall yes
10:54<hylje>Mirrakor: oh, wait, it's in difficulty
10:55<Eddi|zuHause2>Mirrakor: no, difficulty settings
10:56<Eddi|zuHause2>but in the patches there is "disable servicing if breakdowns are off"
10:56<Trond>good luck edeca :)
10:58<edeca>Trond: Meh, it wouldn't be an issue if I didn't have a windows desktop :)
10:58<edeca>Trond: svn + patch + gcc = win
10:59<Trond>windows is nice and easy for slackers :P
10:59<Trond>its just 'press play on tape' and repeat after crash
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11:08<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, it's much more difficult to type "make" and it just does it right
11:08<hylje>scary text
11:09<edeca>Eddi|zuHause2: Heh
11:10<Eddi|zuHause2>edeca: it's called 'irony'
11:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r12513 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_house.cpp town.h town_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: rename OriginalTileRandomiser something more descriptive
11:11<edeca>Eddi|zuHause2: Where do i type the codez 'make'? in the black box with the bash sign? (</sarcasm>)
11:12<ln>edeca: and where was the opening tag?
11:16<edeca>ln: I don't claim to be compliant ;)
11:18<hylje>ln: fuzzy logic
11:18<Mirrakor>I've got a question (yet again.. :D )
11:18<Mirrakor>I build a truck station near a oil plant - but my trucks can't pickup any oil...
11:19<edeca>Mirrakor: Do you mean an oil well?
11:19<mrfrenzy>is it a truck station and not a bus station
11:19<toet>buy oil trucks
11:19<Mirrakor>I've got oil trucks :D
11:19<edeca>Mirrakor: Oil refineries accept, they don't produce
11:19<edeca>Mirrakor: And is the depot near enough to the oil well
11:19<Mirrakor>the depot or the station?
11:20<Mirrakor>it's an oil field (or in fact it's a plasticwell)
11:21<hylje>toyland, you sick person
11:22<edeca>Why is that even still part of the game? :)
11:24<Trond>somone likes it?
11:24<Trond>the eleven year old here liked it...
11:25<edeca>It makes me ill just looking at it
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11:26<Trond>I started a game there once...
11:26<Trond>it didnt even last a week (gametime) =)
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11:28<@Belugas>is there anyone who is bored and who would like to help fixing a bug? Or at least provide data for fixing it?
11:28<@Belugas>the more data we will gather, the better it is.
11:28<@Belugas>it is an easy task, in fact
11:28<@Belugas>but a bit doring
11:29<@Belugas>all you have to do, is to run the game, for a 100 years,
11:29<yorick>what bug?
11:29<@Belugas>with NO interventions, NO AI, nothing
11:29<@Belugas>just let it go
11:29<yorick>100 game years?
11:29<yorick>or 100 real years?
11:29<@Belugas>and every 10 years, tell me the number of all industries
11:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12514 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_object.cpp ai_object.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: 'const <integral> Function()' make absolutely no sense.
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11:30<@Belugas>so, total number, plus number of individual industry type
11:30*Rubidium has a better idea
11:34<@Belugas>until Rubidium comes up with his idea, i forgot to specify it has to be done on 2048*2048 and 256*256
11:34<@Belugas>on temperate
11:34<@Belugas>no grfs
11:35<@Belugas>Very low amount of towns
11:35<@Belugas>very flat
11:35<@Belugas>allow multiple factories on same town.
11:35<@Belugas>close to each other is allowed.
11:35<@Belugas>smooth economy is on
11:35<@Rubidium>well, lets try that :)
11:35<Phantasm>And high starting industry count.
11:36<@Belugas>forgot that...
11:36<@Belugas>we would like to be able to verify the difference of the decrease of industries depending of the map sizes
11:37<@Belugas>the assumption is the the bigger the map, the fastest the number of indutries do decline
11:37<@Belugas>so, it can be viewed as a bug, or as an unbalancing. depends
11:37<@Belugas>but it may need to be fixed
11:38<@Belugas>problem, it requires a lot of data to be able to follow the decline
11:38<@Belugas>therefore, asking users
11:38<@Belugas>and don't be shy
11:38<@Rubidium>therefor making a patch that dumps that to the console
11:38<@Belugas>good idea :D
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11:39<@Rubidium>does print it yearly though
11:40<@Belugas>even better if it yearly
11:40<frosch123>Standard/smooth economy is also important, I guess
11:40<@Belugas>the 10 years idea was to have a general idea without bugging too much
11:40<@Belugas>i don't thuink standard/smooth is important
11:41<Phantasm>It might be, so better have it at same setting for everyone.
11:41<@Belugas>unless it makes an impact on the speed of death
11:41<@Belugas>or maybe have a few batches on smooth, and a few batches on standard?
11:41<@Belugas>but distinctively markes
11:41<frosch123>IIRC smooth economy calls production change for every industry every month (including the same chance for every industry to close). While non-smooth economy picks only one industry per month
11:42<@Belugas>both are called monthly
11:42<@Belugas>they just differ on their processes
11:42*Maedhros suggests a standard config file as well
11:42<Phantasm>Industry dies when the production goes too low, so it should matter. If not on average dying time, at least on variance.
11:42<@Belugas>good idea too, Maedhros
11:43<Ammler>with current trunk?
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11:43<@Belugas>mmh... i need a bench so i can lay my feet :(
11:43<@Belugas>comuter is too cubic :(
11:43<frosch123> <- "ChangeIndustryProduction(i, true);" is called for every industry, "ChangeIndustryProduction(i, false);" only for one
11:44<hylje>magic arguments
11:44<@Belugas>naaa... that is randomproductionchange VS monthly...
11:46<frosch123>well yes, smooth economy uses monthly, while standard uses randomchange
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11:50<nicfer>hmmm openttd is already a game about making cities grow
11:50<nicfer>maybe if temperate cities don't grow by theyselves it would be good
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12:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12515 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_threads.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: when an AI dies on its own, don't kill the AI-script, just mark it as dead and don't do anything until the company dies with it
12:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r12516 /trunk/src/core/ (random_func.cpp random_func.hpp): -Revert r2583: Removed mersenne PRNG cause it is not used and won't be used in the future
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12:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12517 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_error.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: type in @file of ai_error.cpp
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12:13<Mirrakor>edeca: it's not my fault - it's the only theme my gf is willing to play :D
12:13<edeca>Mirrakor: Buy her a laptop, that solved my problems
12:14<edeca>Or even better, buy yourself a decent laptop and let her use the old pc
12:14<Mirrakor>this is dark *gg* no seriously - I think the theme shouldn't actually matter?!
12:19<Mirrakor>Is it possible that another player already "reserved" it?
12:22<Digitalfox>I'm so fuc* .... I have 2 weeks to learn the basics of C and C++ for my admission exam to university.. :|
12:23<Digitalfox>Shit where should I start? Any book recomended or tutorial?
12:24<Mirrakor>there are many books around - the basics are fairly easy :)
12:24<Digitalfox>Mirrakor I really hope it is or i'm fuc*
12:24<Digitalfox>yorick will take a look, thanks
12:25<Mirrakor>Do you have to write real code or just structograms?
12:25<ln>learning C _and C++ in 2 weeks... that's well yeah.
12:25<Mirrakor>btw. isn't there a book series - "learning xyz in zwy days?"
12:26<Digitalfox>Mirrakor I'm only knowing what to study tomorrow when they publish the exam requirements
12:26<ln>Mirrakor: yes, but it's 21 days, and 21 > 14.
12:26<Digitalfox>ln fuc* it.. I'll study day and night, I have no other option :(
12:27<ln>besides, since we are on an English channel, let us not talk about "2 weeks" but instead "fortnight".
12:27<Digitalfox>I need also to study maths.. But that I'll have some classes with math's teachers who I know..
12:28<Mirrakor>ln: if he's nothing else to do.. *gg*
12:28<hylje>what about 336 hours
12:28<Digitalfox>But I'm pretty much screwed this 2 weeks...
12:29<Digitalfox>I did have work to do.. But this is my first priority :)
12:32<Mirrakor>hm.. I've 0.6.0-RC1 when I want to play multiplayer, does the other play have to has the same version?
12:33<Mirrakor>even the RC1 has to macht?
12:33<Digitalfox>Well I choose the road of work on my early life and have taken many certifications thinking university wouldn't be needed, but my country Portugal is in a bad situation and so university opens many new doors.. :)
12:34<Maedhros>Mirrakor: yes - the version must be exactly the same, unless you know exactly what you're doing
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12:47<dih>indian call centeres have a requirement for their futur staff
12:47<dih>they need to construct a sentance, including 3 certain words
12:47<dih>green, pink, and yellow
12:48<dih>"the phone goes green green, i pink it up and say: yellow?"
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12:59<Maedhros>well, that was horrific
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13:00<Diadem>Income: About 60 million
13:00<Mirrakor>hm.. what is more efficient: Same distance: Truck or Train
13:00<Diadem>Construction costs this year: 200 million
13:00<Diadem>whoops :)
13:03<Patrick`>Diadem: oopsie
13:03<Patrick`>Mirrakor: train by far
13:03<Patrick`>over long distances
13:03<Diadem>Well it was expected
13:03<Diadem>Building a 10-track steel line over the entire lenght of a 1024 map
13:04<Diadem>The problem however is that I'm out of money now and the track isn't quite finished yet :)
13:04<hylje>where do you need a 10-track line
13:04<Diadem>But I should make enough to finish the remainder while my trains are going
13:04<Diadem>I don't. But gotta think of the future :)
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13:06<Diadem>300 trains now, about 150 of those bringing iron ore to the same steel mill
13:06<Diadem>And 100 of those on the line I just build transporting steel :)
13:08<Mirrakor>How's that with Multiplayer and the patches...
13:09<Mirrakor>Can everyone set the settings(I'd doubt that), can the host set the settings(during game) or do they have to be set before the game starts
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13:13<Diadem>I wonder how much it'll pay
13:13<Diadem>probably not that much
13:13<Diadem>since I get a huge time penalty
13:17<Diadem>Not bad, 330K
13:18<Sacro> right, it is now o(N)
13:18<Sacro>though i have no idea how it works
13:19<Diadem>100 trains, each takes about 14 months for the entire trip, and they get 330K per trip. That's, hmm, about 30 million a year
13:19<Diadem>Not bad for a single line :)
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13:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12518 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: minor change of order avoids silly one-in-a-milion errors :)
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13:27<jez9999>looks like OOXML will pass as an ISO standard
13:27<jez9999>time for a new standards body methinks
13:28<Sacro>we need a standard standards board
13:28<jez9999>more stringent rules; if bribery is detected, all involved parties are permenantly banned from the organization
13:28<Mirrakor>Diadem: screen? :D
13:28<Mirrakor>jez9999: could it be more obvious?
13:29<Wolf01>Any way to clean a svn folder? My 2 OTTD checkouts take 350MB each one o_o'''
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13:30<Sacro>svn clean?
13:30<Prof_Frink>rm -rf?
13:30<Sacro>rm -rf /?
13:30<Prof_Frink>sudo rm -rf /?
13:30<Wolf01>*without recreating the checkout
13:30<Diadem>Mirrakor: One second, turns out 100 trains isn't enough, need 50 more :)
13:31<Wolf01>jez9999, I'll try to suggest a new standard, compatible with meter but also with beer, pizza and cheese
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13:32<Prof_Frink>Wolf01: gas, electric or water?
13:32<yo>everybody gratz with the 0.60 version
13:32<Wolf01>so I can recharge my plasmagun
13:33<jez9999>so i was shopping just now, and i was coming down on the escalator
13:33<jez9999>some hideous woman behind me was saying to her child, "you should've slapped his face off! i told you you should've slapped his face off!"
13:33<jez9999>shame these people breed
13:33<jez9999>everyone was looking at her though heh
13:34<Prof_Frink>jez9999: When I rule the world, they'll be rounded up and used as fuel.
13:34<Diadem>Mirrakor: Here you are:,%2023rd%20Aug%201961.png
13:36<Patrick`>Diadem: ooo
13:36<Phantasm>Diadem: Uhm.. A pair of tracks can transport about 20 000 cargo a month (with normal breakdowns).
13:36<Patrick`>don't belive in networks?
13:36<jez9999>Diadem: im guessing you dont like towns
13:36<Patrick`>Phantasm: and without networks?
13:36<jez9999>Diadem: plonninghall is destroyed
13:36<Phantasm>Patrick`: Networks?
13:36<Diadem>jez9999: Yeah took me ages, was over 1200 people :)
13:36<Diadem>jez9999: I often remove towns if they are in the way ;)
13:37<Diadem>Phantasm: With maglevs?
13:37<Diadem>Phantasm: Not with steam trains
13:37<Phantasm>12-16 station tracks with suitable depot system and a pair of tracks can do 20 000 cargo a month with maglevs yea.
13:37<Prof_Frink>You know the easy way to kill a town?
13:37<Diadem>Prof_Frink: trees
13:37<Phantasm>Diadem: Btw, at the era of steam trains, you won't have 20 000 cargo to transport.
13:38<jez9999>has anyone written any half-decent Squirrel AIs for NoAI yet?
13:38<jez9999>im sure there must be some around, cant find any
13:38<Diadem>Patrick`: What do you mean? I don't believe in networks?
13:38<Prof_Frink>Diadem: No, demolishing four buildings/road pieces and letting it decay
13:38<Patrick`>Diadem: on closer inspection, you have some
13:38-!-Osai is now known as Osai`off
13:38<jez9999>i want an AI that will give me a good challenge and try to bankrupt me by making my services unprofitable
13:39<Phantasm>The normal AI can't even make profit in hardest possible settings. ;P
13:39<yorick>jez9999: to #openttd.noai?
13:39<Diadem>Phantasm: My steel mill does about 5000 a month. Trust me, I need so many trains to transport that all to the other side
13:39<yorick>the WrightAI, that comes shipped with the noai branch, is a perfect competition
13:39<Diadem>I could do with less lines I guess. But not with one. Just check the train density. Would need at least 3. Might as well make it 5, nicer number :)
13:39<Phantasm>Diadem: 5k a month.. I'd say about 2 pair of tracks is enough.
13:39<Phantasm>Diadem: The key is to fully utilize the tracks.. It takes quite a strange and optimized station to do so.
13:39<Diadem>2 would be pushing it
13:40<Patrick`>I had an amusing idea once
13:40<Phantasm>Do you have the tracks fully utilized?
13:40<Diadem>Patrick`: I have a huge network towards my steel mill. Away from it, nope, no need, just one single long line
13:40<Patrick`>to disable collision detection and just use a single railway line to carry 500 trains
13:40<Phantasm>So that you have train after train with almost no space between going there?
13:40*dih pitties the fool
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13:41<Diadem>Phantasm: Nope. Still working on that. But for this steel line, it's really not needed. There's room enough, just a cost limitation
13:41<Diadem>And it was only 200 million to build this line
13:41<Diadem>Would have been maybe only 100 million with just 2 tracks
13:42<Phantasm>Diadem: Try playing with as hard settings as possible.
13:42<Phantasm>Nothing but water and mountains etc.
13:42<Phantasm>And subarctic map style preferably. :)
13:42<Diadem>I know this is an easy game for fun
13:42<Phantasm>That way you won't get hundreds of millions of money in dozen years.
13:42<Diadem>Played on mountains/seas often enough
13:42<Tefad>many monies.
13:42<Phantasm>For me, I lose interest when I have too much money to spend.
13:42<Patrick`>hard is hard, man!
13:43<Phantasm>Harder than hard!
13:43<Phantasm>Hard is too easy!
13:43<Patrick`> but even so after 5-10 years I have several million
13:43<Patrick`>and it starts to get silly
13:43<Wolf01>mmmh seem the only way is to blow up the checkouts and remake them... clearup freed only 4MB
13:43<Patrick`>I want, like, train morgages, and lines that take 20 years to break even
13:43<Diadem>Hehe, yep
13:44<jez9999>the proper way to prevent yourself from getting 100s of millions is to code an AI so good it competes with you
13:44<Patrick`>competition is annoying and frustrating
13:44<Phantasm>jez9999: Won't really help.
13:44<yorick>after which you know how to compete with it
13:44<Patrick`>I'd rather see some asymmetric coop games
13:44<jez9999>your routes arent very profitable because its rating is very high and you dont get much production. also the industries' productions shouldnt increase over time, they massively increase you you make stupid amount of money
13:44<Phantasm>There is enough space to go around.
13:45<Patrick`>where a "line master" builds track to industries
13:45<jez9999>Phantasm: depends on the mapsize
13:45<Patrick`>and then rents capacity to the train companies
13:45<Phantasm>jez9999: Standard map.
13:45<jez9999>on a 512^2, i'd say the CPU could give you a good run
13:45<jez9999>after 50 years it'll be competing well
13:45<jez9999>(if it's a very good ai)
13:45<Diadem>The main thing is that operating costs aren't high enough
13:45<Patrick`>I hate upgrading rail types so much that I start with monorail
13:45<Diadem>Construction costs, no matter map type, etc, just don't matter anymore after a while
13:45<Phantasm>jez9999: After 10 years you have enough money. Map insn't full yet.. You can go around well with ideal AI not making you bankrupt.
13:45<Patrick`>but now it costs > max loan to build a single monorail line
13:45<Diadem>The only way to avoid that is by making things much less profitable
13:46<jez9999>Phantasm: mmhmm, hard to think of a solution
13:46<jez9999>i guess there are several
13:47<jez9999>high operating costs... having to pay big shareholder dividends if you're rich might be good
13:47<jez9999>so you have to keep earning
13:47<jez9999>and of course a good AI to keep you having to create good services
13:47<Phantasm>jez9999: Have you played Railroad Tycoon 2?
13:47<jez9999>well maybe once
13:47<jez9999>isnt it an old dos game?
13:47<Phantasm>Something like that.
13:48<jez9999>but it looked horrible compared with TT :-)
13:48<jez9999>TT looks cute and fuzzy
13:48<Phantasm>Looked yes, and part of the gameplay is quite off.. But it has awesome stock system!
13:48<Noldo>I agree
13:48<Phantasm>OTTD could use such stock system.
13:48<jez9999>how does it work?
13:49<Phantasm>It is quite hard to explain.. It is more or less realistic stock market made into there.
13:49<jez9999>so comp players could buy you out?
13:49<Phantasm>You start with personal money, you can make a company with your own money and get investor money to help with it.
13:49<jez9999>not sure that would be good for gameplay
13:49<Noldo>it can't be applied directly because the chairman/manager == company in openttd
13:49<Phantasm>Yes, comp could buy you out.
13:49<Phantasm>But in a realistic sense.
13:49<Phantasm>You can also prevent the comp from buying you out if you are good enough.
13:49<jez9999>i mean in the real world buyouts happen, but that doesnt mean the company bought out 'loses', they just become rich
13:50<jez9999>in openTTD a buyout would put you out of the game as if you had 'lost'
13:50<jez9999>not desirable
13:50<Phantasm>jez9999: You could start new company.
13:50<jez9999>but at a massive disadvantage
13:50<jez9999>you lose huge amount of infrastructure
13:50<Phantasm>You would get loads and loads of personal money if you got bought. And you could start fully self owned company that can't be bought unless you agree to.
13:50<jez9999>well you could do that at the start
13:50<Phantasm>But you get money worth the infrastructure (depending on how much of the company you own).
13:51<Phantasm>You don't have enough money at start to do so.
13:51<jez9999>if you cant be bought out why even offer the option
13:51<Phantasm>Anyway, if you had played RT2 you would know the system is good and buying someone else out isn't just like that. So it would work just fine.
13:52<Diadem>Well for a start they should fix company values then
13:52<Phantasm>There are various things that can be done with the stock market.
13:52<jez9999>im looking to get a system that keeps you playing, and keeps you working hard to create good services
13:52<jez9999>what are you looking for? :-)
13:52<Diadem>Mine is worth only slight more than my yearly income
13:52<Diadem>Should be 20x as much, at least
13:52<Phantasm>Diadem: The company value in OTTD is a joke.
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13:52<Noldo>it's only the book value
13:53<Phantasm>RT2 had a real life company value simulation.. The company value depends on the economy.. If economy is booming the value is more and if there is depression the value goes less etc.
13:53<Phantasm>And lots of factors matter on it.
13:53<Diadem>gotta love this
13:53<jez9999>i think that's more than is needed (initially) to have a more competitive game though
13:53<Diadem>Last year I made 43 million *net* profit
13:53<Diadem>My company value: 44 million
13:53<Diadem>wow :)
13:53<Phantasm>Diadem: Old trains don't have much value, so yea, OTTD company value is a joke.
13:54<jez9999>you must be spending a lot of money :-)
13:54<Diadem>Yeah see the screenie :)
13:54<Diadem>I spent about 200 million this year. So atm I have only 5 million cash
13:54<jez9999>i think my problem with OpenTTD main branch is i have different priotiries to the main devs
13:55<jez9999>the main devs seem to want to make the game good for the #openttdcoop people
13:55<jez9999>tons of trains, graphics, and stuff
13:55<jez9999>good train networks, signals etc
13:55<jez9999>all good but if you want a fun 1 player game that isnt enough, you need to concentrate on competition and AI
13:55<Diadem>I don't understand the focus on graphics... Noone plays a 10 year old game for the pretty graphics
13:55<jez9999>main devs dont give a damn about that :-(
13:55<jez9999>we could do with a few major branches
13:55*Belugas slaps
13:55<jez9999>what, do you dispute that statement?
13:55*Belugas slapas jez9999
13:56<@Belugas>ho shoooo...
13:56<@Belugas>you do not know waht you are talking about
13:56<jez9999>there is still a crappy AI and it's far too easy to make money :-)
13:56<@Belugas>all i had to say
13:56<blathijs>jez9999: It's more of an issue of what people are able to do, or like to do
13:56<@Rubidium>jez9999: there are already too many branches to manage
13:56<jez9999>Rubidium: what, 2?
13:56<Diadem>Well jez9999 resources are limited
13:57<blathijs>jez9999: Writing a good AI is hard, and there aren't too many devs that actually like working on that part
13:57<jez9999>maybe NoAI could be the branch focussed on competition etc
13:57<Diadem>I mean you can say the development is focussed on that... But realistically. We still don't have PBS in the main branch. Or a good autoreplace/upgrade functions
13:57<@Rubidium>jez9999: actually 7
13:57<Diadem>That's two things that are really needed imho
13:57<jez9999>Diadem: autoreplace is ok?
13:57<blathijs>jez9999: Same goes for making the game more competitive, that's a very nontrivial job...
13:57<jez9999>blathijs: sure, but if accomplished it would be very cool :-)
13:57<jez9999>so worth trying
13:58<Diadem>It's just a lot of work making a game
13:58<Diadem>And noone gets payed for it
13:58<jez9999>i dont dispute that, i just think there's a limit to how fun it can get building big complex networks
13:58<jez9999>at some point i want a challenge from another company
13:59<@Rubidium>play in MP
13:59<jez9999>still you wont go bankrupt
13:59<@Rubidium>or write an AI
13:59<jez9999>ive dablled with the AI :-)
13:59<Diadem>Well...Start with a simply patch I guess: Operating costs *= 50
13:59<jez9999>but i also think the business rules need changing
13:59<@Rubidium>in MP you can go bankrupt
13:59<Diadem>That should make the game a bit more challeging
14:00<@Rubidium>Diadem: for that there's a newgrf
14:00<jez9999>as we were talking about earlier, Rubidium, operating costs need to be higher, rich companies have to pay dividents, etc
14:00<@Rubidium>that changes the base costs of almost everythinh
14:00<jez9999>otherwise if you get a good start going bankrupt takes about 100 years
14:00<jez9999>we need a way to have to constantly make money or be in trouble
14:00<Diadem>It's not construction costs, it's the running costs taht should go up
14:00<jez9999>a good AI is part of that but not the whole solution
14:00<@Rubidium>Diadem: also influencable by a newgrf
14:01<Diadem>Basicly once you have a line it effectively amkes 100% profit. That's just insane
14:01<blathijs>19:57:57 < jez9999> blathijs: sure, but if accomplished it would be very cool :-) <-- That's something entirely different then yelling stuff like "main devs dont give a damn about that :-("
14:01<@Rubidium>Diadem: happens in the real world too
14:01<jez9999>another thing i'd change is setting the default subsidy multiplier to about 10, anything less is rarely worth doing
14:02<Phantasm>jez9999: Hell no.
14:02<Patrick`>it should not be profitable to lay a long line to a 50ton/month primary industry and have one train wait 6 months for a load.
14:02<Phantasm>Subsidy multiplier at 10 would break the hell lose.
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14:02<jez9999>blathijs: well im afraid ive suggested quite a few things that would make things more competitive, main devs havent exactly worked with me on them :-)
14:02<jez9999>so i do come to that conclusion
14:02<@Rubidium>Diadem: in the real world most companies are forced to run less profitable lines
14:02<Diadem>tbh I wouldn't even use it at 20 multiplier... those lines are simply to short to bother with
14:02<Patrick`>we're reluctant to modify the gameplay
14:02<Patrick`>even if bigmaps did that
14:03<jez9999>Phantasm: really? subsidies only last for a year
14:03<jez9999>10x seems reasonable
14:03<jez9999>you have to rush-build a track
14:03<Phantasm>Diadem: Select as hard as possible settings and you'll know why.
14:03<blathijs>jez9999: I'd invite you to write down a proposal with changes, find a programmer to implement them, and then we can see if things improve
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14:03<Diadem>Phantasm: I've played on hard often enough
14:03<jez9999>blathijs: i write patches.
14:03<jez9999>i am a programmer.
14:03<Phantasm>Diadem: Hard is NOT really hard.
14:03<jez9999>i also propose stuff on the forum
14:03<blathijs>jez9999: The problem with these kinds of changes is that they're probably only useful when applied at the same time
14:03<Phantasm>Diadem: I mean the hardest possible custom settings you can pick from everywhere.
14:03<Diadem>bah I played the OLD TTD on hard often enough... OTTD is much easier than TTD
14:03<blathijs>jez9999: That makes part 2 of my suggestion an easy job (finding a programmer ;-p)
14:04<Phantasm>Diadem: Such settings that AIs at highest intelligency etc won't ever make profit.
14:04<jez9999>blathijs: it's less motivating when you know it wont get into the main trunk though. nobody else will work with me on it
14:04<Diadem>Phantasm: I never play with AIs anyway
14:04<jez9999>much more difficult that way
14:04<Phantasm>Diadem: Neither do I really.. Anyway, if you try the hardest possible settings, you'll see what the subsidies do.
14:04<jez9999>isnt the default 1.5x on hardest? :-)
14:04<jez9999>it's pointless
14:05<blathijs>jez9999: I can't deny that it's not so trivial to find a motivated dev willing to help you out improving and applying patches, unfortunately...
14:05<Diadem>Phantasm: On hard it's 1.5 which is pointless for only 1 year and a very short route
14:05<Phantasm>Diadem: Actually even 1.5 matters.
14:05<jez9999>blathijs: i would be such a dev but will they give me SVN commit access? :-)
14:06<Diadem>Phantasm: Or are you talking about not just difficulty settings but also changing patches to make it harder?
14:06<jez9999>it's all very well me posting a patch for some better business rules on the forum but if it doesnt get into any main codebase, it's depressing
14:06<jez9999>and very few people get to experience it
14:07<@Rubidium>that's because very few people write good patches
14:07<Phantasm>Diadem: Difficulity, map settings and reasonable patch settings.
14:07<@Belugas>those programmers who made good enough a job at writing patches are usually devs right now
14:07<@Rubidium>and *if* a patch is so worse that I'd spend more time on it to get it to trunk than to write the feature myself, I'm not even considering it
14:07<jez9999>Rubidium: i wrote a good patch
14:07<@Belugas>and jez9999, the least that can be said about your patches is that they do not reach the required level
14:07<jez9999>you said "no" and gave me no justification.
14:07<Diadem>Phantasm: One thing about OTTD is that patches make it easier compared to TTD. Like, for example, being able to build an entire stretch of diagonal railroad at once
14:07<jez9999>thanks a lot.
14:08<Diadem>Phantasm: And autoreplace. And longer trains, better pathfinding, presignals, etc, etc.
14:08<jez9999>im talking about my map colours patch, it's as simple as it gets and only improves the game
14:08<Diadem>All good changes, but they do make the game eve neasier
14:08<@Rubidium>jez9999: no, you asked for my personal opinion
14:08<jez9999>Belugas: i dont deny that my other one is not good enough yet
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14:08<Prof_Frink>Diadem: OTOH, newgrfs like DBSet, USSet and UKRS have rebalanced costs to make it harder
14:08<Phantasm>Diadem: Autoreplace, presignals, better pathfinding etc don't matter at start.
14:08<@Belugas>other "ones" you mean...
14:09<@Belugas>jez9999, i saw the map color one. I did not liked it. I prefer the way the colors are right now
14:09<jez9999>i dont get that :-) they're not good right now.
14:09<jez9999>how can you like blue player being the same as water??
14:09<@Belugas>YOU think they are not good
14:09<jez9999>yeah i do :-)
14:09<@Belugas>YOU changed them to YOUR liking
14:10<@Belugas>that's ok
14:10<jez9999>YOU think they are, i wonder how many people do
14:10<@Belugas>but there is no reason why it should go in trnk
14:10<jez9999>maybe some vote process
14:10<Prof_Frink>I agree with jez9999. The current way is bad.
14:10<@Rubidium>jez9999: so when I like OpenTTD to be all purple, I should just commit it?
14:10<Phantasm>Very low towns, industries, min loan, max interest, high running costs, normal breakdownds, 1.5 subsidy, high cost of construction, fluctuating economy, hostile city council's attitude. Sub-arctic, mountainous terrain, high sea level, very rough smoothness, snow line heigth 2.
14:10<Phantasm>Something like that.
14:11<jez9999>Rubidium: i dunno how it works, it seems to be a bit random. bjarni tends to 'just commit' his stuff as do other devs
14:11<dih>hello Belugas
14:11<jez9999>you tell me
14:11<@Belugas>jez9999: how old is ottd? And just NOW, it's unbearable? come on...
14:11<@Belugas>hello Dih
14:11<jez9999>i didnt say unbearable
14:11<yorick>hello Dih
14:11<jez9999>im saying this makes it better
14:11<@Rubidium>jez9999: might look like that, but that isn't the case
14:11<dih>everybody sais that about their patches
14:11<@Belugas>i say it does not
14:11<jez9999>i think most people would prefer the new colours
14:11<jez9999>thats what im saying
14:12<dih>every body sais that about their stuff too
14:12<dih>emphasis on _that_
14:12<yorick>I would like new colors, but not in that way, it makes the whole map darker
14:12<jez9999>dih: and some people get 'their stuff' in trunk.
14:12<@Belugas>ok, little secret about users: they will ALWAYS applaude new stuff, no matter waht it is
14:12<yorick>while I only want a changed blue color
14:12<jez9999>you didnt say "YAPF is good for you, but why should it go in trunk?"
14:12<jez9999>why not?
14:12<dih>jez9999: no - _they_ dont get their stuff into trunk
14:12<Diadem>Phantasm: very few towns actually makes the game easier
14:12<yorick>**attention: Belugas reveald his secret about being a dev!***
14:13<dih>_the devs_ accept _their_ patch and put it into trunk :-P
14:13<Phantasm>Diadem: In what way?
14:13<yorick>no towns in the way
14:13<Diadem>Less towns to demolish :)
14:13*Belugas remembers seen devs patches been rejected a lot before going in....
14:13<Diadem>I really need only one town on my map, preferably in a corner
14:13<@Belugas>don't thuink it is an easy process either
14:13<Phantasm>I'm talking about starting up with those settings.. Not the case 10-15 years later.
14:13<Diadem>to carry goods too
14:13<dih>Diadem: then make that map
14:13<dih>there is a map editor
14:13<jez9999>can you give me a 'more competitive' branch on the OpenTTD SVN server then?
14:14<jez9999>it doesnt have to be the main trunk :-)
14:14<Phantasm>I can agree that once you get started, no matter the settings, you can't go back down.
14:14<@Rubidium>dih: there are quite some dev's patches that have been rejected
14:14<dih>jez9999: make a IN thread in the forums
14:14<dih>Rubidium: i know :-)
14:14<Noldo>jez9999: you can make a branch on your own svn server if you feel like it
14:14<Diadem>Phantasm: Ah. Well then we are agreed aren't we :)
14:14<dih>Rubidum: i am actually supporting 'the dev's here - at least i am trying to
14:14<jez9999>yeah but who decides about the main server
14:14<Diadem>Phantasm: I agree that starting up is quite challenging under those settings. But once you're going it reduces to easy mode really
14:15<yorick>jez9999, devs do
14:15<Diadem>(And btw, I have started under such settings, succesfully)
14:15<jez9999>so, im asking the devs to consider it :-)
14:15<dih>they already said no afaik
14:15<Phantasm>Diadem: Easy yes, but with those settings it is still quite a much slower even after the start.
14:15<yorick>the how manyth time, it is/
14:15<@Belugas>and they will say it again
14:16<Diadem>Phantasm: true
14:16<yorick>we've got 2 converstations going besides eachother ^^
14:16<Phantasm>Keeps the game interesting as you don't have too much money so fast.
14:16<dih>jez9999: in all honesty
14:16<Phantasm>Also that gives a point of not doing excessive amount of tracks. If you have say 500 long route on those settings, it'll cost a forture.. Adding few more tracks costs another fortune.
14:16<dih>whatever you start today will not live any longer than any other IN
14:17<Diadem>Phantasm: Anyway my current goal is to see how far I can take a network. My ultimate goal is to transport every industry on a 1024*1024 map to the same place
14:17<jez9999>the MiniIN branch still technically exists :-)
14:17<Phantasm>Diadem: Rofl.
14:17<jez9999>so it probably would
14:17<yorick>argh * ignores ph and dia*
14:18<jez9999>there was talk of a 'community' IN
14:18<jez9999>i kind of like the idea
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14:18<jez9999>basically an IN with patches that are democratically decided on
14:18<yorick>and it already exists, and is called "trunk"
14:18<jez9999>nonsense, there is zero democracy there :-)
14:19<yorick>who updates it?
14:19<yorick>who manages it?
14:19<jez9999>a few people, like me
14:19<Diadem>Phantasm: This is the plan I'm working towards :P
14:19<yorick>who fixes bugs coused by patches that are "democratically decided"
14:19<jez9999>yorick: the few people, like me
14:19<yorick>what if you don
14:20<yorick>another IN died
14:20<Diadem>yorick: gotta love IRC 'eh? Always fun 3 different conversations in one channel :)
14:20<@Rubidium>problem with INs is that they die and usually pretty quickly
14:20<jez9999>ah but we could have a committee
14:20<jez9999>and if people drop off then others are appointed
14:20<jez9999>with SVN access
14:20<yorick>and who exactly would that be?
14:20<jez9999>then it wouldnt die so easily
14:20<yorick>the dev's?
14:20<jez9999>hell no
14:20<@Rubidium>furthermore the quality of those INs is usually very bad
14:20<yorick>you're basically recreating trunk this way
14:20<jez9999>there's a major difference
14:20<Phantasm>Diadem: 3 isn't much.
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14:21<yorick>patches made by the public, a few reviewers...
14:21<jez9999>actually two
14:21<Phantasm>Diadem: 20 at a time on same chan is good.
14:21<jez9999>1) trunk doesnt have patches that arent 100% stable and tested
14:21<@Rubidium>jez9999: yes, that trunk is stable, and that your IN is not
14:21<jez9999>2) trunk doesnt have patches the devs dont personally like
14:21<jez9999>they're the two things i'd like to change
14:21<jez9999>yeah, sure, but that's ok
14:21<@Rubidium>and the IN will most likely not load savegames made in previous versions
14:21<jez9999>they have 2 different functions
14:21<jez9999>but for example my map colour change is 100% stable
14:21<yorick>that IN would also not include patches the committee basically doesn't like
14:22<jez9999>if the majority of users wanted that in it could get in
14:22<yorick>people always say that about their patches
14:22<jez9999>say what?
14:22<Diadem>Dude.... the main trunk will always contain those changes the devvers like. That's the nature of devs.. That they make the game
14:22<jez9999>yorick: the whole idea is that there would be a rule that the committee didnt decide
14:22<Diadem>kind of comes with the job
14:22<jez9999>they basically took a list of patche submissions and took votes
14:22<Diadem>If you dislike it become a dev yourself
14:22<yorick>they would be committing patches agains their will
14:22-!-dfox [] has joined #openttd
14:22<yorick>and quit being committee
14:22<Diadem>now I gtg
14:22<Diadem>cya g uys
14:23<yorick>and *poof* no committee anymore
14:23<@Rubidium>jez9999: in what way is a committee different than the current 'committee of devs'?
14:23-!-Diadem is now known as Di|gone
14:23-!-NukeBuster [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:23<jez9999>Rubidium: they have a set of rules that includes 'your personal opinion doesnt matter when it comes to deciding on which patches get in'.
14:24<@Rubidium>oh, so when my patch follows some guidelines it goes in without asking?
14:24<jez9999>no, it goes to a vote
14:24<@Rubidium>so personal opinion matters
14:24<jez9999>public opinion matters
14:24<jez9999>i like that idea
14:24<@Rubidium>voting == personal opinion
14:24<yorick>jez9999, you're one of 2
14:24<jez9999>yeah, personal opinion _of many people_
14:24<@Rubidium>what's many?
14:24<jez9999>ie. the whole userbase
14:25<yorick>the creator of the idea also liked it
14:25<jez9999>anyone who wants to vote
14:25<@Rubidium>jez9999: 99.9% doesn't bother voting
14:25<jez9999>so be it
14:25<@Rubidium>and then, what qualifies as a user?
14:25<jez9999>have a registration system
14:25<Dominik>for any project (and also games) someone has to decide what will be done and what won't. someone has to shape that project based on their experience and personal opinion. not everyone will like it but but too many cooks spoil the broth. unlike with closed source projects you could always start your own project based on OpenTTD.
14:25<jez9999>there already is one; tt-forums
14:26<jez9999>Dominik: yes, but that person may be using one of several systems to determine what goes in
14:26<jez9999>im proposing a different system
14:26<Dominik>start your own game project then
14:27<jez9999>does Owen Rudge ever talk anymore?
14:27<jez9999>anyone know how i could contact him
14:27<Prof_Frink>jez9999: Yes.
14:27<blathijs>orudge: jez9999 wants to talk to you
14:27<Prof_Frink>I heard him last night
14:27<Sacro>Prof_Frink: orly ;)
14:27<@orudge>I do talk
14:28<Sacro>orudge: and you never shut up
14:28<blathijs>jez9999: Your ideas are actually pretty ok, in theory. In practice, things just won't work like that, unfortunately...
14:28<Dominik>this is not a commercial project and your not putting any money into it. if you don't like how it is, do it differently yourself. but you can't force anyone (the OpenTTD devs) to work on any patches that they don't like
14:28<jez9999>orudge: i'd quite like to start a community IN version of openTTD, and it would help a lot if it had a section on the tt-forums board
14:28<@orudge>do you really need an entire forum for such a thing? would a topic or two not suffice, for now at least?
14:28<yorick>jez9999, if the public doesn't like democracy, it's basically useless
14:28<jez9999>orudge: the idea would be that mature patches would be proposed for it and voted upon by registered tt-forums users
14:28<Sacro>jez9999: see MiniIN
14:29<@orudge>I'd rather not create confusion with "proper" OpenTTD though
14:29<@orudge>there are enough -IN versions around
14:29<@orudge>that just cause problems
14:29<jez9999>Sacro: does it have its own forum or a democratic vote system, and is it actively maintained?
14:29<jez9999>orudge: would it create confusion?
14:29<Sacro>jez9999: no, it had a topic, and it kinda fell apart around 0.5.0
14:29<jez9999>you could call it 'community IN' with no openttd in the name
14:29<Sacro>it got too hard to maintain
14:29<@orudge>jez9999: for new users, often, yes
14:29<jez9999>Sacro: exactly
14:29<Sacro>i think community IN is lready used
14:29<@orudge>as they come along and see all these separate versions
14:29<Sacro>wasn't the first one called that?
14:29<@orudge>that are incompatible with each other
14:30<jez9999>'community IN' is not used for any forum section
14:30<jez9999>im talking about a new forum section like ttdpatch, openttd, etc
14:30<@Belugas>jez TTD
14:30<yorick>I wish you good luck
14:30<@orudge>but I'm not sure that I particularly like the idea of your project, if I'm honest
14:31<@orudge>many "integrated nightly"-type projects have been and gone
14:31<jez9999>oh :-)
14:31<jez9999>but my idea's kind of fundamentally different
14:31<yorick>ah, lets vote to his project
14:31<@orudge>you're very welcome to have a topic or three on the forum
14:31<jez9999>they all revolved around 1 guy building it :-)
14:31<@orudge>but I think a whole forum isn't something I want to give you at the moment, anyway
14:31<@orudge>if it becomes really popular, perhaps
14:31<@Rubidium>jez9999: MiniIN was a multi-person thing
14:31<yorick>raise hand if you like it!
14:31<jez9999>i liked the miniIN
14:31<jez9999>didnt get enough of a critical mass though
14:32<jez9999>szeparate forum area might get more of a dedicated community
14:32<jez9999>one thread doesnt tend to
14:32<@Rubidium>jez9999: it did get to the critical mass to kill itself
14:32<yorick>hmm...107 people are agains it :)
14:32*orudge brb, reboot
14:33<@Rubidium>yorick: thanks for holding the vote. For what I've seen it was completely fair and nobody has obstructed it.
14:33<dih>yorick: ask in #openttdcoop
14:33<dih>get another bunch there
14:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12519 /branches/noai/ (13 files in 5 dirs):
14:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added AILog with Info(), Warning(), and Error()
14:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: redirect AI outputs to the AI Debug GUI to show it per AI, in a clear way ingame (no more need for stderr viewing)
14:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: NOTE: it still does output to stderr, but on an other DEBUG() level (depending on the message).
14:34<dih>IN's just dont tend to live _that_ long
14:34<Patrick`>mmm, the miniIN had lots of cool patches
14:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12520 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r12519: of course I forget to regenerate MSVC project files (bah, MSVC.. always MSVC... who uses MSVC?!)
14:35<@Rubidium>the whole problems with INs is that once they get 20 to 30 patches they simply die because they've become unmaintainable
14:35<jez9999>Rubidium: you dont seem to have been listening to my proposal
14:35<jez9999>maybe i didnt explain it properly
14:35<Patrick`>jez9999: he gets paid to listen to you, you know
14:35<Sacro>startPos += ++endPos
14:35<jez9999>it basically would get continually repatched from scratch, and patches would be added/removed based on constant voted
14:35<dih>jez9999: i am pretty sure Rubidium has read enough of your proposals
14:36<dih>all devs in here also have lives
14:36<yorick>that looks very labor-intensive and unmaintainable
14:36<yorick>they do?
14:36<dih>so what they do on OpenTTD is free time
14:36<blathijs>What? Free time? Where?
14:36<yorick>they seem to have a lot of :p
14:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12521 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_abstractlist.hpp ai_company.hpp): [NoAI] -Change: make the style of end-of-line doxygen comments be the same for the whole AI API.
14:36<dih>yorick: what appears to be on the surface aint what is underneath
14:37<yorick>that line really needs one ^^.
14:38<dih>jez9999: as for all your proposals
14:38<blathijs>While you're at it, might as well capitalize it as well :-)
14:38<dih>just look at the number of IN's around
14:38<dih>just look at how many are actively maintained
14:38<dih>check how long they have been around for
14:38<jez9999>dih: that's like comparing saddam hussain's dictatorship with Finland's democracy
14:38<jez9999>they're both leaderships, but one is democratic
14:38<yorick>a few months
14:38<Mirrakor>hm.. can I do something against the synchronisation errors in multiplayer?
14:39<yorick>disable grf's?
14:39<dih>jez9999: you seem to talk bull crap
14:39<@Rubidium>jez9999: so you can as non-politician vote directly for every law?
14:39*Belugas agrees with dih
14:39*yorick agrees with Belugas
14:39<dih>jez9999: you know the best thing you can learn here
14:39<@Belugas>youhou! democracy in motion!
14:39<dih>is accepting leadership :-D
14:40<jez9999>thanks, but nobody offered it to me
14:40<dih>and the 'leaders' are the devs
14:40<dih>so you can suggest, but dont expect
14:40*yorick agrees with dih again
14:40<@Rubidium>jez9999: you haven't answered my question
14:40<jez9999>Rubidium: well, yeah. it doesnt work well with regular democracy as laws are very complex, but with openttd patches...
14:40<jez9999>combined with a userbase that is inherently interested in openttd
14:41<yorick>good ones are also very complex
14:41<jez9999>but the ideas behind them arent
14:41<dih>and worth it
14:41<jez9999>only the code
14:41<jez9999>you're voting on the ideas
14:41<dih>jez9999 another thing is - asumptions are bad
14:41<@Rubidium>jez9999: the ideas behind laws are very easy too, and there are very easy laws to vote for
14:41<yorick>the ideas behinds laws aren't, are they?
14:41<yorick>the contents are what makes a law complex.
14:41<dih>i doubt that many people here will be able to grasp what actually goes on behind the scenes of OpenTTD
14:41<jez9999>they dont need to...
14:42<jez9999>unless they're implementing the patch
14:42<dih>they should
14:42<dih>because if they do they can once and for all stop the nagging
14:42<dih>^subtle hint
14:42<Mirrakor>another question sorry: Is it possible to exchange some goods between a truck station and a train station?
14:42<jez9999>i'd say most laws in a parliament are much more complex than an openttd patch
14:42<dih>Mirrakor: yes
14:42<jez9999>law in parliament: 50 pages of text
14:42<dih>use transfere
14:42<yorick>try transfer & unload, Mirrakor
14:42<Mirrakor>dih: how?
14:42<jez9999>openttd patch: the patch does x, y, and z. should it go in?
14:43<yorick>jez9999: idea behind a law: 1 page
14:43<dih>jez9999: just look at coding guidelines
14:43<@Rubidium>yorick: or less
14:43<jez9999>coding guidelines?
14:43<dih>as that can already be a reason for deniying it
14:43<Patrick`>Mirrakor: yes
14:43<jez9999>dih: in the trunk, yeah
14:43<yorick>just the formal stuff
14:43-!-divoafx [] has joined #openttd
14:43<jez9999>we're not talking about the trunk
14:43<Patrick`>Mirrakor: you know stations merge, rigth?
14:43<@Belugas>dih, jez9999 does not know waht is code style, for starter :(
14:43<yorick>you seem to
14:44<jez9999>Belugas: heh, i do now
14:44<jez9999>i had that hammered into me
14:44<yorick>he didn't speak to you!
14:44<jez9999>i didnt speak to you
14:44<dih>jez9999: register openJezTTD
14:44<Mirrakor>Patrick`: not sure - I just clicked the transfer button and afterwards clicked unload... :)
14:44<dih>get servers
14:44<dih>setup svn
14:44<dih>(where you might already fail ^^)
14:44<dih>and grow a community
14:45<dih>but dont expect anybody from here to follow
14:45<jez9999>i could do with tt-forum tho
14:45-!-divo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:45<yorick>(where you certainly fail ^^)
14:45<dih>well - perhaps you could get yorick if you give him svn access :-P
14:45<Sacro>svn access?
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r12522 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_log.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: forgot to comment one struct
14:45<dih>jez9999: start something before wanting to shoot over the mountains
14:45<yorick>but not for committing patches against my will, dih
14:46<Mirrakor>hm.. now it said transfered (and showed an amount of euros.. but where is it now?
14:46<yorick>in the station
14:46<dih>Mirrakor: there are wiki pages
14:46<dih>search for transfer
14:46<jez9999>probably need to re-apply the patches in the communityIN on a weekly basis
14:46<dih>people dont just write that drivel for decoration
14:46<jez9999>also if the author didnt update the patch to be compatible it couldnt go in
14:47<dih>jez9999 you can discuss your "IN' in #jez_out
14:47<Mirrakor>dih: I'm perfectly fine if you give me keywords :)
14:47<@Rubidium>jez9999: so you force people to start over with their games every week, just to get bugfixes?
14:47-!-lobster_MB [~michielbr@] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
14:47<dih>Mirrakor: you had the keyword all the time
14:47<yorick>Mirrakor: stations
14:47<dih>you just did not use your thinker :-P
14:47<Mirrakor>my Problem is that I try to translate it back and then search for another keyword
14:47<Dominik>have you ever tried applying more than 3-5 patches to a working copy?
14:48<Mirrakor>no I searched for things like "exchange" and got 0 results :/
14:48<jez9999>if the bugfix makes the game incompatible with a previous build, that's exactly what they have to do with the trunk
14:48<@Rubidium>jez9999: just removing/adding patches when people have not updated them causes savegames to be incompatible between 'releases'
14:48<dih><-- has
14:48<@Rubidium>*unless* you start adding savegame compatability code like a mad man
14:48<jez9999>well yeah that would be a last resort
14:48<jez9999>but i guess occasionally it would happen
14:48<yorick>it happens all the time in trunk
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14:48<@Rubidium>jez9999, from personal opinion: s/occasionally/usually/
14:48*dih was first
14:48<jez9999>the aim is to have a good functional game, not so much savegame compatibility
14:48<@Rubidium>jez9999, from personal experience: s/occasionally/usually/
14:48*yorick made a typo at first ;(
14:49<@peter1138>A[A[Ad savegames and newgrfs and ...).
14:49<dih>jez9999: go to the ChrisIN page
14:49<@Rubidium>jez9999: without savegame compatability people will whine like hell and you would generally not get a wide user base
14:49<jez9999>they do have compatibility
14:49*Sacro is fairly wide :(
14:49<jez9999>they just finish their previous game in the previous version :-D
14:50<@Rubidium>MiniIN started to gain momentum once the people got assured that savegames could be loaded in later versions of the MiniIN.
14:50<@Rubidium>jez9999: so you force people to play with bugs that are fixed in a newer version.
14:50<jez9999>as i said before, i hope incompatibility wouldnt happen often
14:50<yorick>it does in chrisin
14:50<@Rubidium>and quite a lot of people tend to play games over weeks, month or years
14:50<jez9999>if certain patches were unreliable that would probably be a candidate for not committing them
14:50<Dominik>why don't you just start your own "patched version" for a start and if it runs well you could make it into the kind of project you're talking about.
14:51<yorick>and get a community
14:51<@Rubidium>jez9999: the after about 1 month of inclusion in MiniIN 50-80 % of the patch authors stopped maintaining their patch because "it is in MiniIN"
14:52<jez9999>well, yeah, it would be nicer if there were some devs prepared to work on the trunk as well as a 'cutting edge' version
14:52<jez9999>many projects have such a setup
14:52<jez9999>with openttd there is the trunk and cutting edge isnt really maintained
14:52<jez9999>if it were people wouldnt need INs
14:52<@Rubidium>jez9999: too few good developers and too little free time for the good developers
14:53-!-Sacro is now known as L
14:53<jez9999>Rubidium: ahh, 'good' developers :-)
14:53<jez9999>nice way of screening me out
14:53-!-yorick is now known as Q
14:53<@Rubidium>jez9999: any idea *how* many custom versions of the Linux kernel there are?
14:53<jez9999>'good' being subjective
14:53-!-L is now known as Sacro
14:53-!-Q is now known as yorick
14:54<@Rubidium>jez9999: that has a 'stable' and 'IN' version
14:54<@Rubidium>and *many* *many* different custom flavours of that vanilla stable version because the IN doesn't contain what they like
14:54<jez9999>linux is vastly more complicated than openttd, and that is a bad comparison
14:54<@Rubidium>just because their stuff doesn't get (or isn't) into the linux kernel
14:54-!-Dominik [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:55<yorick>jez9999, as said may times before, set up openjezTTD
14:55<jez9999>when i say vastly, i mean about 10,000 times more
14:56<@Rubidium>jez9999: then show me a project being as complex as OTTD that has the setup you want
14:56*jez9999 searches google :-)
14:56<@Rubidium>or rather, show me at least 10
14:56<jez9999>that's not fair :-)
14:56<@Rubidium>you said many
14:56-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
14:56<jez9999>but that was a handwavey thing
14:56<@Rubidium>I'm pretty fair, because many would be several hundreds for me
14:57<jez9999>cPanel has a stable and EDGE
14:57<@Rubidium>OpenTTD too
14:57<@Rubidium>0.6 and trunk
14:57<jez9999>well i think openttd trunk is a bit too conservative
14:57<jez9999>i wouldnt call it edge
14:57<yorick>ok, go maintaining your own
14:57<yorick>and stop complaining here
14:58<yorick>get to #jez_out, and get your community there
14:58<Noldo>consevative in what way?
14:58<yorick>not many patches committed
14:58<@Bjarni><jez9999> well i think openttd trunk is a bit too conservative <-- what do you mean?
14:59<yorick>Bjarni, get yourself a copy of the logs
14:59<@Rubidium>jez9999: cPanel cannot be compared with OpenTTD because cPanel is much bigger than OpenTTD. It's even proprietary
15:00<jez9999>so, openttd is an even better candidate for an edge version
15:00-!-SmatZ [] has joined #openttd
15:00<@Rubidium>jez9999: there is a paid staff; there isn't a paid staff for OpenTTD
15:00<jez9999>i'd also say Firefox has quite a few patches committed
15:01<jez9999>although it is more conservative than i'd like
15:01*Belugas thinks that edge version sounds like laboratory in jez9999's vocabulary
15:01<@Rubidium>Firefox is also HUGE and has paid staff
15:01<Sacro>Rubidium: like your mum
15:01*Sacro hides
15:01*Maedhros doesn't see how the fact that OpenTTD is smaller than cPanel means it should be more unstable
15:01<jez9999>it should be easier to keep stable
15:01<jez9999>less to review
15:02<jez9999>and anyway it doesnt have the be the main trunk, it can be a branch labeled 'UNSTABLE AS HELL' for all i care
15:02<Maedhros>heh. have you ever tried to track down a desync?
15:02<jez9999>you wouldnt need to.
15:02<jez9999>if it breaks, you take the trunk and reapply patches until it breaks
15:02<jez9999>when it breaks, that patch is at faulkt
15:03<@Rubidium>jez9999: have you ever tried to make a desync reproducable enough to test it that way?
15:03<jez9999>you wouldnt need to
15:03<jez9999>because it would be called 'unstable' :-)
15:03<jez9999>that's the idea of edge versions
15:04<@Rubidium>so the idea of an edge version is NEVER making it stable?
15:04<@Belugas>that is really a funny way to solve stuff :D
15:04<jez9999>no, but the idea is that it isnt a priority
15:04<jez9999>the priority is new and exciting features
15:04<jez9999>and improvements
15:04<@Rubidium>jez9999: that means NO stables
15:05<jez9999>depends how you define stable
15:05<jez9999>maybe not stable enough to hold an openttdcoop multiplayer
15:05<jez9999>but that's not the focus of the build
15:05<@Rubidium>well, something that doesn't crash and desync every few minutes
15:05<jez9999>not the focus of the build
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15:06<@Rubidium>what does edge lead to then when it does not lead to stables?
15:06<@Belugas>jez9999, that's not EDGE, it's butchery
15:07<yorick>how many times, it's said that he should get himself openJezTTD?
15:07<yorick>stop complaining about a free project, please, if you want it better, make your own
15:07<Patrick`>jez9999: you think that it'd be personally more beneficial for you if the system was run this way? there's a patch you wanted but saw fall into disrepair?
15:08<dih>jez9999: take it to #moocows
15:08<mrfrenzy>I will be happy to be betatester of openJezTTD
15:08<yorick>patrick`, there've been multiple
15:08<mrfrenzy>when will the first rc be out? ;)
15:08<@Rubidium>mrfrenzy: NEVER
15:08<yorick>subsidiaries, PBS, signals on bridges, ...
15:09<jez9999>it's already out, it's on my hard drive actually
15:09<@Rubidium>because it will NEVER lead to a stable, because the priority is new and unstable features, not making it stable in any way
15:09<@Rubidium>and a RC would mean some kind of stableness
15:09<jez9999>why do you place so much importance on stability?
15:09<jez9999>that's what trunk is for
15:09<stillunknown>Because it is important.
15:09<jez9999>not in an edge build
15:10<jez9999>the odd crash is ok
15:10<@Belugas>game that always blow up is a very good feature...
15:10<jez9999>and it wouldn't happen much anyway. most patches arent *that* bad
15:10<@Belugas>Hey, do not need to bur report it, it is EDGE!
15:10<jez9999>no, bug report it, but the difference it's in the edge, and not in the trunk
15:10<dih>sounds like jez had a wee bit too much of MS
15:10<stillunknown>Obscure crashes are hardly desire-able.
15:10<@Belugas>jez9999, you really do not know waht you are talking about.
15:10<@Rubidium>jez9999: yeah... me finding *big* bugs in patches that are apparantly tested months in an IN
15:10<jez9999>Belugas: i think i do, but ok.
15:11<@Belugas>if you did, you would not say stuff like you do
15:11<@Rubidium>the big problem about INs is that people do not complain about bugs and/or crashes
15:11<@Rubidium>or at least not complain as much
15:11<yorick>dih: true
15:11<@Rubidium>which then causes people to think they patch is flawless
15:11<jez9999>Rubidium: did i say you had to integrate patches in the edge IN?
15:11<jez9999>you wait until you want to, or never do
15:11<jez9999>it doesnt matter
15:12<jez9999>you carry on with the trunk the same as now
15:12<yorick>or 1/bool true/!false/!0/!bool false :)
15:12<@Rubidium>I'll just feed you some patches
15:12*dih slaps jez9999
15:12*yorick would slap jez9999, but is not being violent today
15:12<dih>@kick jez9999
15:12<@Bjarni>behave yourself
15:12<yorick>I wasn't violent today :)
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15:13<stillunknown>jez9999 is like those people who think one memory error per hour is good.
15:13<@Bjarni>memory errors?
15:13<@Bjarni>what's what?
15:13<jez9999>Bjarni: he probably means page faults
15:13<@Bjarni>I forgot :(
15:14<yorick>very small soft windows!
15:14<stillunknown>I mean a bit that didn't hold it's value, or something like that.
15:14<yorick>breaks easily :)
15:14<@Rubidium>jez9999: actually stillunknown knows the difference between memory errors and 'page faults'
15:14<jez9999>so do i
15:14<yorick>bjarni doesn't
15:15<blathijs>Actually, page faults are supposed to happen IIRC, while memory errors means you need to get new hardware :-)
15:15<jez9999>blathijs: sigh, it sucks when you have to explain jokes
15:15<stillunknown>In some cases you actually want to create massive amounts of page faults.
15:16<@Bjarni>I said that I forgot what "memory errors" is.... indicating a memory error
15:16<@Bjarni>but you guys appears to miss that point :/
15:16<jez9999>Bjarni: comedy doesnt work in here
15:17<blathijs>Bjarni: Woops :-)
15:17<stillunknown>jez9999: The fact remains that in C(++) you have to be very careful, and even the thought of letting bugs slip is not good.
15:17-!-Dominik [] has joined #openttd
15:18<stillunknown>Not to mention merging with mainline becomes a huge problem.
15:18<jez9999>stillunknown: i take the point, but i think it could be managed without having the level of strictness that trunk has.
15:19<@Rubidium>jez9999: really got no idea how much work it is to hunt bugs
15:19<@Rubidium>and especially to hunt desyncs
15:20<@Belugas>no, he does not, since he just offer patches, no bug fixes...
15:20<@Belugas>maybe if he did, his opinion would be VERY different
15:20<Dominik>you're still discussing that ridiculous idea?
15:20<@Rubidium>the best way to improve your 'goodness' status is fixing bugs
15:20<jez9999>i guess chrisIN is pretty close to what i want, just could do with being more democratic :-)
15:21<jez9999>and also chrisIN will probably die sometime, and with a committee it would be less likely to
15:21<jez9999>so they're the two main points
15:21<@Rubidium>jez9999: START you IN
15:21<jez9999>still based around 1 person
15:21<@Rubidium>well... find someone who wants to help you
15:21<@Belugas>well... find some good souls :)
15:22<@Rubidium>3 persons are not enough to keep an IN running with 30+ patches applied
15:22*dih agrees
15:22<@Belugas>Let see... chris, gonozo and jez
15:22<@Belugas>that is 3 :)
15:22<Dominik>hey jez9999, i'll help you!
15:22<Dominik> only 50 Euro/hour
15:23-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:23-!-UserError [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:23<yorick>I would help you for 100 euro/hour
15:23<yorick>with a max of 1 hour/day, 3 days/week, if more, double the costs
15:23<henkie>wth is an IN?
15:23<dih>yoyick: you are too young
15:24<@Belugas>henkie, INtegrated version of different user patches
15:24<stillunknown>jez9999: You're better of trying to get a single feature into trunk.
15:25<yorick>dih, still dreaming>
15:25<jez9999>stillunknown: heh, wow, that's saying something
15:25<henkie>am i looking for an AI which helps me build, so i can just watch the trains move :)
15:25<henkie>maybe a self-learing thingie
15:25<henkie>i would call it SkyNet
15:26<@Belugas>you'll havge better chance of learning through multiplayer games :)
15:26<dih>bad name
15:26<jez9999>you can't compete properly in the current version of OpenTTD
15:26<henkie>Belugas, i dont want to learn, i want the AI to learn :)
15:26<dih>look at noai
15:26<jez9999>i'd love multiplayer more if you could put a competitor out of business
15:26*Dominik is rebooting again
15:26-!-Dominik [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:27<dih>jez9999: play quake 3
15:27<jez9999>i do play CS
15:27<jez9999>maybe you should be able to shoot competitors
15:27<henkie>that's just stupid
15:27<dih>then play that and give peace
15:27<henkie>or combine OpenTTD with GTA :)
15:28<jez9999>there are no other cars on the road in openttd
15:28<jez9999>no fun
15:28<yorick>lets kick him :)
15:28<jez9999>although running over opponents' busses is fun
15:28*dih ignores jez9999 - annoying kid
15:28<@Belugas>who votes for kicking jez9999?
15:28*jez9999 votes against
15:28<Prof_Frink>Belugas: on IRC, or reality?
15:29*yorick votes for
15:29<@Belugas>i take that as a Yeah!
15:29-!-jez9999 [] has left #openttd []
15:29<yorick>autokick :)
15:29<Di|gone>don't you need operator status in this universum, to kick someone in reality? :)
15:29<henkie>hehe, he went and told his mom i bet
15:29<dih>you bad ass
15:29<@Belugas>Di|gone, yes you do
15:30-!-Di|gone is now known as Diadem
15:31<henkie>now i dont have anything to read anymore :(
15:32<henkie>is there a Changelog for beta5 -> rc1?
15:32<@Belugas>yes, on the forum's announcement of RC1
15:32<@Rubidium>see the rc1 changelog
15:32<@Belugas>and on the packages too
15:34-!-Dominik [] has joined #openttd
15:35-!-KritiK [~Maxim@] has joined #openttd
15:35-!-Aerandir [] has joined #openttd
15:35*Belugas listens to Orgy - Blue Monday
15:42<dih>so silent ^^
15:42<yorick>shh...dih wants to speak
15:43<@Belugas>by the way, did anyone ran some of these industry tests , apart dih?
15:43<@Belugas>good dih...
15:44*Belugas pets dih
15:44<@Belugas>and of course apart Rubidium, Maedhros and Phantasm
15:49*yorick pats Rubidium, Maedhros
15:49<yorick>but Phantasm could bit
15:50*Phantasm bites yorick.
15:51<yorick>see ^^
15:51<@Belugas>and Phantasm is very usefull and not lazy as we had first tough of. There has just been a lot of misunderstanding
15:52<@Belugas>just for the record...
15:52<@Belugas>getting it straight
15:52<@Belugas>the record,
15:52<@Belugas>not Phantasm..
15:52*Phantasm bites yorick again. ;P
15:52<@Belugas>fantasms are never straight... alwasy devious..
15:53<Phantasm>yorick: You run a test as well and I might not bite you anymore in the future. :)
15:53<@Belugas>feqwww...two new features and a release...
15:53*yorick gets Phantasm a rabies-immunity
15:53<@Belugas>for work@work :P
15:53<yorick>oh noes!
15:53<yorick>it's 21:53
15:54<dih>fibble wibble foo and bar went to a....
15:54<@Bjarni>so how many of you were late today?
15:54<dih>i was not
15:54<dih>i was not
15:54<@Bjarni>or works/studies with somebody who were an hour late
15:54<Sacro>Bjarni: i was, think i might be pregnant
15:55<dih>Sacro: you WERE late and think you ARE pregnant?
15:55<@Bjarni>Sacro: that reply was right on time though
15:56-!-Osai`off is now known as Osai
15:56<@Bjarni>Sacro: who is the lucky fellow who boned you?
15:56<dih>hello Osai
15:56<@Bjarni>I don't want to know :P
15:56<Osai>hi dih
15:56<Osai>gimme 10 minutes
15:56*Bjarni hands a minute to Osai
15:56<dih>that line just came to the wrong time
15:56<Osai>first training today after my sickness
15:57<dih>boning sacro
15:57<@Bjarni>yeah that's sick
15:57<@Bjarni>and unhealthy
15:57<Osai>noro is something really evil
15:57<dih>sacro on his/its own is unhealthy
15:58*Sacro cries
15:58<@Bjarni>you were possessed by Sacro?
15:58<ln>Bjarni: does danish use the "som" thing in indirect questions?
15:58*dih hands a tishue to Sacro
15:58*yorick are possessed by ourselves
15:58<dih>it's for the TEARS Sacro
15:58-!-Osai is now known as Osai^away
15:58<@Bjarni>but Sacro always finds different purposes for stuff he is around
15:59-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: Possesed quit!]
15:59<@Bjarni>ln: err.... what kind of question is that???
15:59<dih>[21:59] * [jez9999] ( Jez
15:59<dih>[21:59] * [jez9999] #openttd.ChrisIN #openttd.noai
15:59<dih>[21:59] * [jez9999] :The Netherlands
15:59<dih>[21:59] * [jez9999] :actually using host
15:59<dih>[21:59] * [jez9999] End of WHOIS list.
15:59<dih>Sacro: stop crying
15:59<dih>as if that would help :-P
16:00<ln>Bjarni: for example, "Vet du vem _som_ bor här?"
16:00<@Bjarni>maybe Sacro's boyfriend is a sadomasochist and that's why Sacro cries
16:00<@Bjarni>or maybe Sacro is
16:00<dih>in which case Sacro would enjoy it
16:01*dih just does not want to know
16:01<@Bjarni>a cry of joy
16:01<@Bjarni>well that's possible
16:01*dih puts on a life suite and jumps
16:01<@Bjarni><ln> Bjarni: for example, "Vet du vem _som_ bor här?" <-- that's not an indirect question (or Danish for that matter)
16:02<dih>that is not indirect danish?
16:02<ln>Bjarni: Jeg vet, men jeg taler ikke så fint danske.
16:02<@Bjarni>but I guess it's possible to use "som" in an indirect question
16:03<@Bjarni><ln> Bjarni: Jeg vet, men jeg taler ikke så fint danske. <-- it's better than some of the people who applies for Danish citizenship o_O
16:03<ln>Bjarni: but my point is: in swedish it is wrong to omit that "som", i.e. "Vet du vem bor här?" is wrong.
16:04*glx points Bjarni and dih to the topic
16:04<@Bjarni>I think I would say "Ved du hvem der bor her?"
16:04*dih points out to glx that he did not use another lang
16:05<@Bjarni>but maybe dih failed to use UTF-8
16:05<dih>did not
16:05<+glx>no but I see lot of non english words
16:05<dih>yes? where?
16:05<dih>from me?
16:05<@Bjarni>from ln
16:05<+glx>oups sorry dih
16:06<@Bjarni>it would appear that he is studying Danish for some reason
16:06<dih>i forgive you :-P
16:06<ln>i'm definitely not studying Danish.
16:06<@Bjarni>why not?
16:06<+glx>then why using it?
16:06<@Bjarni>it's a nice language
16:06<@Bjarni>I use it on a daily basis
16:06<+glx>for danish people yes
16:06<ln>glx: to shock bjarni
16:06<dih>eny language could be considered a nice language
16:07<dih>appart from swiss german
16:07<+glx>but ln is not danish
16:07<@Bjarni><dih> eny language could be considered a nice language <--- it wouldn't take long to make a list of exceptions
16:07<@Bjarni>but it would take forever to make it complete
16:07<dih>[22:07] <dih> appart from swiss german <-- i have already started the list :-D
16:08<dih>that that is even unpleasent to speack
16:08<@Bjarni>you can change that line
16:08<@Bjarni>to "* German"
16:08*dih slaps Bjarni
16:08<+glx>canadian french is weird ;)
16:08<dih><german swearing sensored>
16:08<@Bjarni>actually German isn't that bad
16:08<dih>we can at least be very creative with words
16:09<@Bjarni>so is French French
16:09<dih>welsh ^^
16:09<@Bjarni>Welsh is nice
16:09-!-Roujin [] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> <- The alternative IRC client]
16:09<dih>no that would get any half way decent person confuddled
16:09<@Bjarni>but tricky to understand for non Welsh people
16:09<dih>and to read
16:09<@Bjarni>and remember placenames
16:10<dih>i mean
16:10<dih>jasdlkfjaslkdfj asdlkja sdlkfjasd
16:10<dih>could mean hello
16:10<dih>who knows
16:10-!-O^Brien [] has joined #openttd
16:10<@Bjarni>no it can't
16:10<dih>as far as i am concerned it could :-P
16:10<@Bjarni>it doesn't sound Welsh at all
16:10<dih>they never write what they say
16:10<@Bjarni>sounds more like dihish
16:10<dih>they never say what they read
16:11<@Bjarni>or brainfuck
16:11<@Bjarni>it's hard to tell the difference between those two
16:11-!-Osai^away is now known as Osai
16:11<Sacro>Rubidium: thanks for the help ^^
16:12<@Bjarni>Rubidium is the father?
16:12*dih was thinking in a similar direction
16:12<Sacro>no, i coulnd't remember the name of element number 37
16:12<@Bjarni>I have that on a shirt
16:12<@Bjarni>the name I mean
16:12<@Bjarni>not the question
16:13<@Bjarni>actually I have a shirt with the whole periodic table
16:13<@orudge>Ah, well
16:13<@orudge>that's not so bad, then.
16:13<@Bjarni>and the radioactive elements glow in the dark :D
16:13<dih>hello orudge
16:13<@orudge>if you were to go around wearing a shirt saying "orudge", it'd be a little bit disturbing
16:13<@orudge>Hello dih
16:13<@Bjarni>it was actually a present but I might have bought it myself if I had seen it in a shop
16:14<@Bjarni>"put orudge in the Oven" <-- now that would be disturbing to put on a shirt
16:15<@Bjarni>basically that's why I don't have a shirt like that
16:15<dih>what is black and knocks on the glas from the inside
16:15<@orudge>a dead baby?
16:15<dih>baby in a microwave
16:15<@orudge>in an oven?
16:15<@orudge>somebody actually did that not so long ago
16:15<dih>another one :-D
16:15<@orudge>they were sentenced recently
16:15<dih>what is green and turns red when you press a button?
16:15<@orudge>a baby covered in green paint in a blender?
16:15<@Bjarni>the panic button
16:15<@Belugas>[16:08] <+glx> canadian french is weird ;) <-- buwhahahah!!!1
16:15<dih>frog in a blender
16:16<dih>and what is green, and stays green when you press a button?
16:16<@Belugas>french canadian is better than french from france :D
16:16<@Belugas>dih, a rotten clitoris?
16:16<dih>frog in a blender running for it's life :-P
16:16<@orudge>Canadian French is vaguely weird
16:16<+glx>it's closer to the "original"
16:16<@orudge>from the little of it I heard when in Toronto
16:16<dih>Belugas: that is way out
16:16<@orudge>(which was a fair bit more than I expected to hear, I must admit)
16:16<@Belugas>toronto??? french????
16:17<@orudge>Belugas: indeed
16:17<dih>my inocent mind has been ... yuck
16:17<@Bjarni>French is the Gaul guys trying to speak Latin and it didn't go well
16:17<+glx>they still use some 17th century words
16:17<ln>Belugas: maybe it was a tourist from france.
16:17<dih>Belugas: what should your kid think of you ^^
16:17<@Bjarni>"bad daddy"
16:18<dih>you bad daddy
16:18*Belugas whistles innocently
16:18<dih>yeah right
16:18<dih>innocent! ha
16:18<@Bjarni>but why is he a bad daddy?
16:18<@Belugas>glx, that is quite true :)
16:18<dih>[22:16] <Belugas> dih, a rotten clitoris? <-- that's why ^^
16:19<@Bjarni>I missed that one
16:19<@Bjarni>now Belugas is bad and rotten
16:19<@Belugas>and we do not have included as much english words as you do. although i do not know if it's good or bad...
16:20<@Bjarni>including English words in a language that's not related to English is likely a bad thing
16:20<+glx>Belugas: worse you adapt english expressions in french
16:20<@Belugas>no, it's call evolution, Bjarni
16:20<@Belugas>true we do, glx
16:20<@Bjarni>Sacro: England
16:20<Sacro> 6 mins left, only got 29/46
16:20<Sacro>Bjarni: pfft, got tht
16:21<Sacro>wtf is the big one between latvia and ukraine
16:21<@Belugas>glx: but i have to admit, some are absolutely stupid. like transforming CD to cédérom
16:21<ln>Sacro: russia
16:21<@Belugas>that is yurk
16:21<Sacro>ln: i have russia
16:21<Sacro>and tis not european ><
16:21<ln>Sacro: belarus then
16:21<Sacro>ah ys, Belugas
16:22<Sacro>right then, to the left of that
16:22<Maedhros>did you just try to tab-complete Belarus? :p
16:22<Sacro>Maedhros: yes :)
16:22<Sacro>it worked with Rubidium :p
16:22<Sacro>Belugas: you are not quite a country :(
16:23<@Belugas>although my colleagures would say i have an ego as big :S
16:24<Sacro>wtf is that little bit between belgium france and germany
16:24<Sacro>i don't recall there been a country there
16:24<@Belugas>a line?
16:24<Maedhros>(probably not spelt right...)
16:24<dih>cédérom <--- not an english word :-D
16:24<Sacro>right, i can't recall any of the former yugoslavian ones
16:24*dih points towards the topic ^^
16:25<Sacro>dih: was utf-8
16:25<+glx>Maedhros: looks correct
16:25<Sacro>it won't acccept yugoslavia
16:25<dih>glx fancies Maedhros
16:25<Sacro>well that's what my globe says is there
16:26<dih>i read 'great' - not 'correct'
16:27-!-phin [] has joined #openttd
16:27<@Belugas>dih, of course it's not an english word. That was how our "brillant" Ministry of French Sanity decided that CDROM should we written. By using phonetic writing. Which is an insanity, in my view
16:27<dih>talking of phonetics
16:28<@Belugas>the only good stuff they come up with is the "Courriel" word. For EMail. Courrier Electronique -> courriel. Nice one
16:28<Ammler>is the the binary openttd the only one which is plattform dependend, so if you like to have a cross plattform portable bin, you need just openttd.exe and openttd?
16:28<dih>[dai’hi: drəl]
16:28<Diadem>36/46 countries and only 5 min left
16:28<@Belugas>Ammler, don't get it...
16:28<dih>Ammler: that is described in the readme
16:28<+glx>Belugas: or clavardage for chat
16:29<@Belugas>forgot that one :)
16:29<+glx>I like this word
16:29<@Belugas>but "butineur" for browser was a real laught
16:29<+glx>"navigateur" here
16:29<@Belugas>better :)
16:29<@Belugas>by far
16:31<dih>and Ammler: yes - you only need the different executables
16:31<Ammler>no problem to rename them?
16:31<@Bjarni>out of time
16:31<@Bjarni>You got 41 out of 46 European countries. <-- didn't finish :(
16:32<@Bjarni>my biggest problem was spelling all the names in English
16:34<@Bjarni>in fact I missed Luxenbourg (or however you spell it) because I couldn't figure out how to spell it :(
16:34<dih>Ammler: nope
16:34<dih>Bjarni: i am dissapointed
16:35<dih>i write such a readme and nobody reads it :-(
16:35<@Bjarni>I know
16:35<@Bjarni>it should be named "read me and go to jail" and a whole bunch of people from the internet will read it
16:36<@Bjarni>this is an insult
16:36<@Bjarni>15% miss Denmark
16:36<@Bjarni>only 13,5% miss Iceland
16:37<@Bjarni>like Iceland is more important or something
16:37<Prof_Frink>People remember the supermarket
16:38<@Bjarni>Herzegovina <-- this is a name I got right in the like 5th attempt :s
16:38<@Bjarni>almost 60% miss that one.... the question is how many knows it but can't spell it :P
16:39<@Bjarni>1,7% miss France
16:39<@Bjarni>nobody should miss the big countries like France, Germany and England
16:39<@Bjarni>oh well
16:39-!-|Bastiaan| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:41-!-Dominik [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:44<Sacro>Bjarni: i know it, but couldn't spell it
16:44<Sacro>i started with iceland, did the top
16:44<Sacro>and then started at portugal and went right
16:45-!-Slowpoke [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:45<SmatZ>hmm yeah "Bosna i Hercegovina" is hard to spell in English...
16:45-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:46<Eddi|zuHause2>You got 44 of 46 European countries
16:46<Digitalfox>Sacro say otorrinologista
16:46<bowman>I got 45 :)
16:47-!-Dominik [] has joined #openttd
16:47<Eddi|zuHause2>i couldn't in any way remember the country that monte carlo is in...
16:47<Eddi|zuHause2>and i missed albania
16:48<bowman>you got san marino? :P
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>of course
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>that's easy ;)
16:48<SmatZ>I got
16:48<Sacro>andorra, san marino, monaco, vatican
16:48<SmatZ>but I can't spell Vatikan :-x
16:48<SmatZ>ahhh 'c' , thanks :-D
16:48<bowman>yeah got all those except san marino hehe
16:48<Prof_Frink>SmatZ: "Popetown"
16:49<Eddi|zuHause2>i had to google for the german names, click on the wikipedia link, and there click on the "english" link to find out how to spell some countries
16:49<SmatZ>You got 43 out of 46 European countries. :-x
16:50<SmatZ>but I cheated a bit with translations :-x
16:50<Patrick`>periodic table = win
16:50<Patrick`>je suis une chemiste
16:50<Patrick`>it's borked :(
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>i'll suck at that
16:50<+glx>I got only 36/46
16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>half the names are completely different than in german
16:51<SmatZ>Can't connect to database
16:51<SmatZ>it's broken
16:51<Patrick`>did someone slashdot it?
16:51<Prof_Frink>Patrick`: I got 116/118 on the periodic table
16:51<SmatZ>we broke it
16:51<Prof_Frink>Patrick`: hammer refresh.
16:51<Eddi|zuHause2>like what is the translation of "Zinn", or "Wolfram"
16:51<+glx>missed all the small ones (monaco, andorre, vatican city,...)
16:52<SmatZ>liechtens... very hard to spell in English :-x
16:52<SmatZ>also Bosnia i Herzegovina
16:52<Eddi|zuHause2>Liechtenstein... it's always written like this...
16:52<+glx>I got liechtenstein right
16:52-!-dih is now known as anhedral
16:52<SmatZ>or Lithuania...
16:53<+glx>but couldn't spell netherlands
16:53<SmatZ>yeah, I cheated to find that 's' in google
16:53<Eddi|zuHause2>it's always plural
16:54<+glx>les pays-bas
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>wtf is the english name of Kalium (K)?
16:54<henkie>Lord Kalium?
16:54<Sacro> <- new challenge
16:55<Prof_Frink>You will find a very useful file.
16:55<Eddi|zuHause2>this game sucks
16:56<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm at 13/118 after 4 minutes
16:56<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: Grab the file. It will help.
16:56<Eddi|zuHause2>what is Bor (B) ?
16:57*Maedhros has a periodic table on the wall above his desk ;)
16:57<Eddi|zuHause2>wtf? it doesn't accept Aluminium
16:57-!-Gekz [~brendan@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:58<Sacro>Maedhros: cheat
16:58<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause2: American
16:58*SmatZ should watch StarTrek once again
16:58<Prof_Frink>Similarly, they don't accept S
16:58-!-Rikke_Platino [~chatzilla@] has joined #openttd
16:58-!-Rikke_Platino is now known as Rikke
16:58<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, the problem is how to figure out which letter to randomly leave out :p
16:58<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause2: maybe double ll ?
16:58<bowman>several :)
16:59-!-Mark [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:00-!-Rikke [~chatzilla@] has quit []
17:00<Eddi|zuHause2>SmatZ: no, they leave out the i in -ium
17:00-!-Mark [] has joined #openttd
17:01<Sacro>that's cos we added it
17:01<SmatZ>it doesn't accept Unununium :)
17:03<Patrick`>got the periodic table
17:03<Sacro>what have i started...
17:03<Patrick`>all of it
17:03<Patrick`>they cut and run after darmstadt's element
17:03<Patrick`>the higher-ups get named after scientist
17:03<Patrick`>like bohrium or seaborgium
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>28/118 final result
17:08<Eddi|zuHause2>this translation thing is really a problem
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17:12<Patrick`>I hate games like thise, they waste my time
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17:18<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't even know half the presidents
17:18<Sacro>i wish we could half the president
17:18-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:18<Eddi|zuHause2>that is a different question ;)
17:18-!-dR3x4cK [] has quit [Quit: dR3x4cK]
17:20<Eddi|zuHause2>You got 13 out of 43 Presidents.
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17:23*Bjarni closed his browser
17:23<@Bjarni>that thing takes too much time :(
17:24<@Bjarni>and I missed 2 US states (couldn't spell Mass. and missed Maryland)
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17:37<Eddi|zuHause2>bah... spanish numbers are difficult... i always mix them with french
17:38<ln>uno dos tres quatro cinque seis siete otto nueve dieci?
17:38<ln>(how many of those are french or italian?)
17:38<Patrick`>uno dos tres quatro cinque cinque seis
17:39<Patrick`>damn you song
17:39<Eddi|zuHause2>it doesn't accept quatro for example
17:39<Patrick`>how many of those are mexican instead of spanish
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17:44<Eddi|zuHause2>22 of 33
17:44<Eddi|zuHause2>i couldn't figure out 17-19 and 30-90
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17:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12523 /branches/0.6/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp [0.6] -Backport from trunk (r12486): wrong copy right data in Windows binaries.
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17:57<Diadem>Is multiplayer fun?
17:57<Diadem>Doesn't it go awefully fast without pause?
17:57<SmatZ>yes, no
17:57<Diadem>I'm used to pausing all the time. Whenever I think, but even while building
17:58<Sacro>not really
17:58<Diadem>How long does 1 game last?
17:58<Sacro>|<-------- this long --------->|
17:58<Sacro>(not to scale)
17:58<Diadem>That's a measure of length, not time
17:59<Diadem>are we assuming c=1 or something?
17:59<Sacro>so is a parsec
17:59<Sacro>but i can still do the kessel run in 5
17:59<Sacro>under 5 even
17:59<@Rubidium>Diadem: could be more than a fortnight
17:59<@Rubidium>but usually it's less
18:00<Diadem>doesn't time always run at the same speed?
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18:00<Sacro>nope, it depends on how fast you are moving
18:00<Sacro>time slows down as you approach the speed of light
18:00<Diadem>Sacro: That's nothing. A photon does it in 0... In his own timeframe, ofc
18:00<@Rubidium>it just depends on how often people are playing and whether the game gets restarted at a specific point in time
18:00-!-Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
18:01<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm 3 countries short in south america
18:01<Sacro>Rubidium: or a non specific point in time
18:01<Diadem>But how many OTTD years are there in a real-life hour?
18:01<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2: Surinam?
18:01<Sacro>oh no
18:01<Sacro>that's the pereodic table
18:01<Eddi|zuHause2>ha ha ;)
18:02<Diadem>Better than 3 countries short in North-America )
18:02<@Rubidium>Diadem: a tick is 30 ms, there are 74 ticks in a day -> rest is math
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18:02<Diadem>Rubidium: So 2220ms for a day. That sounds about right I guess.
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2>a day is roughly 2 seconds
18:03<Diadem>So one year is about 880 seconds
18:03<Diadem>sorry 810
18:03<Diadem>So 4.44 years in an hour
18:03<Eddi|zuHause2>Diadem: they have all the carribean islands in north america
18:04<Diadem>Eddi|zuHause2: That's not North America imho. North America is Mexico + USA + Canada
18:04<Sacro> <- i want that
18:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12524 /branches/0.6/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [0.6] -Update: some documentation.
18:13<Eddi|zuHause2>only 5 out of 12 greek gods, because i can't spell again
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm not significantly better with the roman gods...
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18:29-!-anhedral is now known as dih
18:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12525 /tags/0.6.0/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Release: the April Fools' edition of OpenTTD.
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18:34<Patrick`>that's just mean
18:37<Prof_Frink>And half an hour early
18:38<Patrick`>in solviet russia, april fools you!
18:38*Sacro builds
18:38<Sacro>Rubidium: can't it have 0.7.0 ;)
18:39<Sacro>or is that the actual release :o
18:39<Prof_Frink>Sacro: I'm not sure.
18:40<Prof_Frink>It *looks* like an actual release.
18:40<Prof_Frink>But, it is labelled as April Fools
18:40<Sacro>Prof_Frink: yes, i[m quite convinced too
18:40<Sacro>looking at the last commits
18:40<Prof_Frink>NOT COPYWRITE
18:40<dih>clean work there
18:40*Sacro scratches his head
18:40<Sacro>shiny version number
18:41*dih scratches sacro's head too
18:41<Sacro>tis all looking go
18:41<Sacro>dih: i'd get yourself checked
18:41<Prof_Frink>Five! Four! Three! Two! One! OpenTTDs Are Go!
18:41<Sacro>Rubidium: don['t announce it thoguh
18:42<Sacro>i wanna start a server up
18:42<Sacro>get the forum talking
18:42*Sacro = git
18:42*Prof_Frink = bzr
18:42<Sacro>or at least don't post the report until 00:00 GMT
18:42<Sacro>cos then nobody will belive you anyway
18:44<Prof_Frink>Sacro: That's not for an hour and a bit yet
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18:50*dih is confuddled
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18:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12526 /tags/0.6.0/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix: determining the version failed on Windows.
18:55<SmatZ>people here who use Fedora... all my admire goes for you!
18:58<SmatZ>I am having hard times with it :-x
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18:58<Prof_Frink>< Sacro> Use Arch.
18:58<Sacro>SmatZ: Arch!
18:59<SmatZ>I have to use Fedora because we use it in school and I want to have as little compatibility problems as possible :)
18:59<Sacro>use CentOS then
18:59<Sacro>all the power of RHEL
18:59<Sacro>without being a testbed for new stuff
19:00<dih>centos is pretty good
19:00*SmatZ uses Gentoo
19:01<@peter1138>CentOS still has the drawback of being RPM based.
19:01*SmatZ googled for CentOS
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19:06<dih>good night
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19:16<Diadem>Which directory should I play newgrf files?
19:16<Diadem>I can't browse it seems
19:16<Ammler>Diadem: mydocs/.openttd/data/
19:16<+glx>Ammler: wrong
19:17<Ammler>its a mix
19:17<Diadem>Ah ok
19:17<Diadem>got it
19:18<Ammler>how is it called in windows? OpenTTD ?
19:20<Diadem>for me? D:/Games/OpenTTD/data :)
19:20<+glx>better put them in mydocs\openttd\data
19:21<+glx>that way you can have multiple openttd versions, but only one dir for grfs
19:23<Diadem>mydocs? where do I find that? :)
19:23<Ammler>Diadem: depense on your local settings
19:24<+glx>c:\documents and settings\<username>\...
19:24<Diadem>ah got it
19:24<Diadem>You meant *that* mydocs
19:24<Diadem>Didn't know Ottd put stuff there
19:24<Diadem>annoying.. I hate programs who spam my c-drive
19:24<+glx>mydocs are on d:
19:24<Ammler>yep, OTTD is cool
19:27<Ammler>it you think grf is spam, you shouldn't install them
19:28<@peter1138>Unsolicitied commercial email from ottd!
19:29<Diadem>Ammler: I didn't mean that
19:29*Sacro solicits peter1138
19:30<Diadem>Call me old-fashioned, but I'm off the opinion that programs and games should keep track of their settings and savegames etc in their own directory
19:30<Diadem>not at some other random place on your hard-drive
19:30<@peter1138>acceptable with dos, but modern OSes are multi-user
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19:30<Diadem>Not mine
19:30<Diadem>I have a "Touch my pc and die" policy
19:31<Sacro>ahh a windows user
19:31*Sacro likes his ~/.openttd{,-svn,-beta} folders
19:31<@peter1138>i have a 'touch my pc and all my stuff is locked away from you' policy
19:31<@peter1138>well, assuming no boot cds are used...
19:31<Sacro>i have a 'touch my pc and get infected' policy
19:32<@peter1138>with aids
19:32<Prof_Frink>Heh, my stuff is mainly ~/src/openttd/*
19:32<Sacro>or worse
19:32<Prof_Frink>bad aids?
19:32<Sacro>bloody hell
19:32<Sacro>worse still
19:32<Sacro>jdk update ><
19:33<Sacro>oh god
19:33<Sacro>hang on
19:33<Sacro>why do i have qt
19:33<Sacro>and skype staticqt
19:34<SmatZ>because skype won't run without staticqt on amd64
19:35<Sacro>i don't x86_64
19:35<Sacro>i use i686
19:35<Sacro>i don't know anyone with a 64 bit phone number
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19:37<Ammler>peter1138: have you crypted home?
19:37<Ammler>oh, no boot cd
19:38<Diadem>peter1138: oh my really private stuff is locked away behind a 40-word PGP password :)
19:38<Diadem>still though... Don't touch my pc... My settings and programs and stuff aren't passworded ;)
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19:55<Diadem>wow how annoying
19:55<Diadem>those newgrf trees don't go invisible
19:56<Ammler>why do you include tree grf and like to have them invisible?
19:56<Diadem>I didn't, the game did
19:56<Ammler>but you can set a patch setting
19:56<Diadem>(multiplayer game)
19:56<@peter1138>there's no reason for them no to
19:56<Diadem>I have the patch setting on
19:57<Diadem>but trees are still visible
19:57<Diadem>(in the #openttdcoop game)
19:57<@peter1138>transparent or just normal?
19:59<@peter1138>well then
20:03<Diadem>Guess the newgrf is bugged or something
20:03<@peter1138>or you haven't activated transparent trees
20:03<Diadem>what do you mean?
20:05<Diadem>ohhhhhhhhhhhhh.. transparency options...
20:05<Diadem>Ah that explains a lot.. That option doesn't exist in the stable, so hadn't seen it
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20:06<Sacro>should it be OpenTTD or openttd in the GNOME menu?
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20:08<Diadem>thanks peter1138
20:08<Sacro>peter1138: thoughts?
20:08<@peter1138>Sacro, OpenTTD
20:08<Sacro>yes, I thoguht so too
20:08<@peter1138>Like everything else...
20:09<Diadem>wait... wait.. there's a new stable?
20:09<Sacro>yeah, the original arch dude put openttd
20:09<Sacro>and it looks crap
20:09<Sacro>Diadem: no, its a trap
20:10<Diadem>an april's fools joke?
20:11<Diadem>so where do I find RC1
20:11-!-Ammler [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:11<Sacro>Diadem: who cares
20:11<Sacro>0.6.0 is out
20:16-!-mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
20:17-!-glx changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.0 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | for all related bugs/patches
20:17<Sacro>glx: 0.7.0 :p
20:17-!-Sacro was kicked from #openttd by glx [no :)]
20:18-!-mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek
20:20<Phantasm>I have a bad feeling about that.
20:21<Phantasm>The date sure is quite suitable for a release. ;P
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20:25<Diadem>what is timetabling?
20:26<Sacro>have you never used public transport?
20:27<Diadem>ah you can actually give orders to your vehicles to leave at specific moments?
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20:33<ben_goodger>public... transport?
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20:41<SpComb>...what's the idea behind doing a major version release on the 1st of April? :/
20:41*SpComb is afraid to download it
20:42-!-Eddi|zuHause2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:42<ben_goodger>SpComb: I think it's OK
20:43<SmatZ>it won't erase your hard disk... maybe :)
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21:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r12527 /branches/noai/bin/ai/wrightai/main.nut: [NoAI] -Fix: only the first failing WrightAI could change its name to show it failed
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 01 00:00:24 2008