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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-04-10

---Logopened Thu Apr 10 00:00:29 2008
---Logclosed Thu Apr 10 00:15:13 2008
---Logopened Thu Apr 10 00:15:56 2008
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01:56<Eddi|zuHause3>... not typically at 5AM
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04:29*Celestar ponders
04:30*Rubidium too
04:30<Celestar>ESA is recruiting new astronauts. Should I apply or not?
04:30<@peter1138>dooo eeeet
04:30<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12648 /trunk/src/ (50 files in 3 dirs):
04:30<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Feature: allow four different non-stop types in a single game instead of two. The "TTDP compatible order" setting now only sets the default behaviour of new trains.
04:30<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Feature: allow three different load type in a single game instead of two. One can choose full load all and full load any instead of full load being governed by the "full load any" patch setting.
04:31<ln>Celestar: sure, be the first one to run OTTD in space.
04:32<Celestar>peter1138: I'm really really really thinking of doing so
04:33<@Rubidium>just do it
04:33<@Rubidium>you can always fail a test when you don't want it anymore
04:33<Celestar>\o/ Rubidium that'S a feature which I have long tried to commit, but never really finished.
04:33<Celestar>Rubidium: true
04:33<@peter1138>damn it, my home adsl's gone tits up
04:33<@peter1138>so much for using the fast pc :(
04:35<Celestar>Rubidium: I probably will apply
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04:37<Trond>nice new load type settings Rubidium! Thanks :)
04:37<Trond>quick question: is there any way to decrease the savegame version in a saved game?
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04:38<Celestar>Trond: how should that work? :)
04:38<Trond>I have no idea Celestar
04:38<Trond>I have a savegame that due to a patch 'bug' is saveg ver. 99 :(
04:38<Celestar>I have. it doesn't
04:38<Celestar>patch bug?
04:39<Celestar>what ver should it be?
04:39<Trond>gonozal set savegame ver to 99 in one of his daylenght patches
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04:39<Celestar>Trond: well, you can TRY to manually modify the savegame.
04:39<Trond>he nicreased trunk by 10 I believe
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04:39<Trond>well... I did search for 99 in that savegame, and got a few hits
04:39<@peter1138>so just play it with his patch, heh
04:40<Trond>its old patch, I want new features on this savegame too...
04:40<Celestar>Trond: well, did you unzip it first? :) and the savegame revision must be pretty early in the savegame
04:40<Trond>unzip? are savegames saved as a compressed file?
04:40<Celestar>using zlib
04:40<Ammller>is there somewhere a documentation about savegame format?
04:41<@peter1138>yes, src/*.cpp
04:41<Celestar>Ammller: there's a bit in the source files :)
04:41<Trond>okey, I will have to look into that Celestar, that could be usefull info
04:41<Ammller>yeah, I feard that
04:41<Celestar>Ammller: some comments and stuff
04:41<@peter1138>it's fairly simple
04:41<Celestar>Ammller: maybe have a look at .. (when was the last time we updated that?)
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04:45*Celestar just wondered why is irssi said "Unknown command: /loot" :P
04:46<Celestar>I'm not quite sure what I even wanted to enter :P
04:51<Celestar>yeah /loot esa
04:51<Celestar>You looted: 1 Ariane 5 Solid Rocket Booster ...
04:52<Celestar>1 F-1 rocket engine
04:52<Celestar>mount the F-1 engine on your car :P
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04:53<Celestar>"No officer, I'm pretty sure this vehicle can handle 40 million HP" :P
04:53<HMage>мямя. всем привет.
04:53<Celestar>hm .. cyrillic
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04:54<Celestar>he ... ESA astronauts all learn russian :>
04:54<ln>Celestar: russian is not that hard.
04:55<ln>easier grammar than in german...
04:55<Celestar>I understand about 5% :P
04:58<shodan>hah what game is that you are talking about?
04:58<Celestar>I'm just being stupid. Too much wine yesterday
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05:08<Roujin>I've had a funny idea earlier...
05:09<Roujin>i thought about making a jump 'n run style ottd scenario :D
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05:10<Roujin>where you have to navigate a road vehicle through a route full of obstacles (maglev level crossing...) to its destination, only using its start/stop and turn button
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05:18<@peter1138>^ best ever use of an eeepc
05:20<Gekz>I cant beat that
05:20<Gekz>and i'm using one
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06:02<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12649 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_gui.cpp):
06:02<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Fix: refit orders not being shown.
06:02<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Fix: unusable non-stop orders shown for waypoints and depots.
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06:18<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12650 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
06:18<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Feature: ability to force a vehicle to not load at a station.
06:18<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Feature: ability to force a vehicle to not unload at a station.
06:19<Roujin>oh, something new
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06:19<@Rubidium>Roujin: you've missed the best part of it already ;)
06:20<Roujin>*goes read svn log
06:21<Roujin>do the buttons cycle through the different options now?
06:24<Roujin>I'll just go and try it out... nice work!
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06:41<Roujin>hmm there are some odd situations with the new options
06:42<Celestar>Rubidium: someone's not happy :P
06:42<Roujin>I'm happy
06:42<Roujin>I just want to help sorting out bugs
06:44<Roujin>I even went away from my own code for that :P
06:47<pm|work>hey, that are nifty features wrt to load orders :)
06:47<Roujin>for example, selecting "no loading" as load option and "Unload all" as unload option, it results in "transfer and take all"
06:47<Roujin>no, results in "transfer and take cargo" - sorry
06:49<Roujin>also, minor graphical glitches with the dropdown boxes
06:49<Roujin>x size seems a bit too low, maybe forgot about the border? that's 2-3 px or so
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06:55<Roujin>Rubidium: i'll just post it on bugspray, ok?
06:56<Maedhros>Roujin: he's not here at the moment, but flyspray is the best choice anyway :)
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07:08<@peter1138>dw->widget[0].right = width + 1;
07:08<@peter1138>should be
07:08<@peter1138>dw->widget[0].right = width - 1;
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07:29<King-J>Is it usual for trams to get stuck? I've got one which is stuck on a bit of track constantly doing a 'turn left' animation
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07:30<[1]Roujin>does the tram track end there?
07:30<[1]Roujin>then it can't go on nor turn
07:31<KingJ>No, it's connected to where it wants to turn
07:31<KingJ>but not where it's coming from
07:31<KingJ>And can't send to depot, turn around etc
07:31<elmex>i'm gone for some months and this is what happens: someone implements PBS ;-/
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07:34<[1]Roujin>did you change any newGRFs during game?
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07:34<[1]Roujin>because this can lead to all kinds of strange behavior
07:35<KingJ>No reset option is there?
07:37<Celestar>your best bet is the console :P
07:38<[1]Roujin>well, if you can reproduce it, file a bug report on flyspray. preferably with a savegame shortly before it happens attached..
07:39<KingJ>This is the first time i've seen it happen, but if it occours again, I will
07:39<KingJ>Celestar, which console command in particular?
07:39<Celestar>don't you have autosaves?
07:39<Celestar>KingJ: I'm just looking
07:39<Celestar>didn'T find anything useful at the moment
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07:44<Celestar>sorry KingJ no usable option found :(
07:45<KingJ>Damn. Thanks anyway
07:48<Trond>KingJ: did you try to remove the track it is supposed to enter, and then adding it again? sometimes it can help I think
07:48<KingJ>Oh, one question. What do you think the ideal train length is for building a huge network? I currently use 10 with signals every 6, but corners are a nightmare.
07:49<KingJ>Trond: Just tried that. Didn't fix it
07:50<[1]Roujin>KingJ: what do you mean with corners are a nightmare?
07:50<Trond>I have a weakness for small things, so I use trainlenght 10 as you do... works fine for me... (10 as in 5 tiles)
07:50<Maedhros>KingJ: have you tried manually reversing the tram?
07:51<KingJ>Maedhros: Clicking the reverse arrow on the veichle info/viewport window? Yes, dosen't change it
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07:54<[1]Roujin>something else about the new orders...
07:54<Celestar>@openttd bugs
07:54<@DorpsGek>Celestar: Open Bugs: 33; Not assigned: 26; Closed this week: 7; Opened this week: 10
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07:54<[1]Roujin>shouldn't "go via ..." type orders have loading/unloading options disabled?
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07:55<[1]Roujin>i mean, when going via a station (that means don't stop there), it's pretty useless to set any loading/unloading options
07:56<Trond>OMG I managed to fix the diff for distant joint stations myself *shock*
07:57<Trond>it even compiles AND work after starting the game :D
07:57*Celestar puts his fingers in his ears *boom*
07:58<[1]Roujin>congratulations, you're a hacker now.
07:58<Celestar> <= this is a true hacker :P
07:58<Trond>thats what maxxis said a few years back when I was hooked on sims ;)
07:58<Trond>lol Celestar
07:59<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12651 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Fix (r12644) [FS#1915]: Dropdown widget width should be one pixel less than window width, not one more.
07:59<[1]Roujin>next thing, transfer should be in unload options...
08:00<[1]Roujin>peter: you're committing this without being able to test it yourself? wow, that's trusting :P
08:01<[1]Roujin>you never know, I might have included a viscious virus in that diff?
08:01<@peter1138>you might've done, but i didn't need a diff to see the change i'd already proposed...
08:03<[1]Roujin>but maybe this little change will... erm... turn computers all over the world that are running openTTD into evil monsters, destroying cities and eating humans and stuff...
08:03<[1]Roujin>you never know before testing...
08:03<[1]Roujin>trust me, I've seen that already. It happens. Regulary.
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08:06<[1]Roujin>now, more seriously, do you agree with me that transfer should be grouped into the unloading orders? does anyone actually care?
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08:07<[1]Roujin>I mean, there's no unload type that can actually be combined with transfer
08:07<[1]Roujin>the old "transfer + unload = transfer and leave empty" can now be (more logically) archieved with "transfer + no loading"
08:10<SmatZ>I think I agree
08:12<SmatZ>one remaining thing
08:12<SmatZ>it would be nice for transfers
08:12<SmatZ>if vehicle wouldn't load cargo it unloaded
08:12<SmatZ>so a cargopacket would remember the last vehicle transfererd that packet
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08:13<SmatZ>if it doesn't work this way already
08:13<[1]Roujin>i don't think so...
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08:13<[1]Roujin>but in most cases you can use the transfer and leave empty combination... no?
08:14<SmatZ>no for pax networks
08:14<pm|work>Roujin: so far. But SmatZ says it :) terminals for pax...
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08:15<[1]Roujin>mmh you have a point there..
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08:16<pm|work>is there an option to only load and keep the current cargo (w/o unloading first)?
08:16<[1]Roujin>now yes.
08:16<pm|work>nice. Good for Bus circular routes...
08:16<[1]Roujin>you can choose "no unload" now
08:16<Ammller>wow :-)
08:17<Ammller>maybe also a skip stop at 100% ?
08:17<[1]Roujin>in combination with any of "normal load", "full load" and "full load any cargo"
08:17<SmatZ>Ammller: conditions are not possible (yet)
08:18<[1]Roujin>haven't tested that, but I doubt that it would skip the stop automatically...
08:19<Ammller>hmm, do you talk about trunk?
08:19<[1]Roujin>yes, today's commits
08:20<[1]Roujin>so you'll need to check out svn for that, or wait till tonight's nightly ;)
08:24<pm|work>Ammller: along with autoupdate and this quick pace of dev it might even be an idea to daily update the ps server :)
08:25<pm|work>at 4am CET or so...
08:27<Ammller>update is a thing of 5 mins, so it could also be done right after nightlies are created
08:28<Ammller>if we would take the nightly build for server itself, it would be done in 30 secs
08:28<pm|work>yes. But that's the time many people are connected. In the eye of "continuous service" 4am is better.
08:28<Ammller>and if the "autopudate" breaks?
08:29<Ammller>we ring you out?
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08:29<pm|work>:O we have it fall back to the previous version
08:29<pm|work>but certainly that's a point...
08:30<Ammller>currently, there is no admin outside europe timezone
08:30<Celestar>hm ...
08:31<pm|work>hm, yeah.
08:33<pm|work>hm... currently I don't plan to re-locate to a place outside Europe...
08:34<pm|work>I buy a "b" for peter.
08:35*hylje steals the bee
08:36*pm|work sends an angry bee towards hylje
08:36*Celestar ponders whether he should restart his cbh efforts
08:36*hylje cyber-squats it
08:36<hylje>Celestar: no we will never need such buggery!
08:36*Celestar pokes hylje
08:36*pm|work wonders what "cbh" might stand for...
08:37*pm|work hands Celestar a cup of coffee and strings a carrot to a string...
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08:38*hylje ponders whether a cup of coffee on a stick would be more effective
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08:38*pm|work thinks that smiling at Celestar might require him to change sex to work...
08:41*Celestar wonders what you're all doing
08:41*pm|work abandons the idea with the stick and just keeps the carrot.
08:41*pm|work tracks particles
08:41<Celestar>pm|work: explain ...
08:41<pm|work>carrot or particle?
08:42<pm|work>oh, take a few hundred images with white dots (imaged particles). Try to obtain their trajectories while there are hundrets of particles on each image...
08:42<Celestar>PIV ...
08:43<Celestar>sort-of PIV?
08:43<pm|work>but I'm interested in the particles themselves.
08:43<Celestar>I see
08:43<Celestar>what do you do?
08:43<pm|work>astrophysics is the short answer.
08:43*Celestar wants to do that as well ;)
08:43<Celestar>where are you at?
08:44<pm|work>Braunschweig, DE
08:44<Celestar>Garching, DE here ;)
08:44<pm|work>we're doing research on the first stages of planet formation --> small particles clustering :)
08:44<pm|work>ah... what do you do there?
08:44<Celestar>try to do a PhD
08:44<pm|work>well... me, too :)
08:45<Celestar>Soyuz TMA-12 has only 300m to go to docking \o/
08:46<pm|work>Garching has also many astrophysics institutes...
08:46<Celestar>yeah. I'm considering applying for a job there.
08:46<Celestar>but I didn't study physics
08:46<Celestar>:o ... 10 more planets found since I last checked
08:47<pm|work>well... they can make good use of engineers as well :)
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08:47<Celestar>pm|work: as long as I don't have to touch Fortran
08:47<pm|work>Celestar: I'd expect the number to rise even more steeply once the space borne missions churn out data...
08:47<Celestar>WTF? Is the JPL doing an April's fools?
08:47<pm|work>urgs. I don't at least.
08:47<Celestar>pm|work: Kepler at least ....
08:48<Celestar> <= check this, pm|work
08:48<pm|work>Yeah. My usual reference is
08:48<Celestar>yeah but it's less pretty :P
08:49<Celestar>Soyuz is go for docking
08:49<Celestar>oh ... discovered by transit... nice.
08:50<pm|work>:) Yeah. That's what the Corot mission is going to do: transits. Lots of transits...
08:51<Celestar>pm|work: please tell me. From a stability point of view, are Hot Jupiters a likely thing to form?
08:51<pm|work>They're just holding back their data... kind of embargo :S
08:51<pm|work>obviously :)
08:51<Celestar>well, they're easy to detect ...
08:51<pm|work>until they were discovered no-one would have predicted them.
08:51<Celestar>that's what I have read from the literature as well
08:52<Celestar>your models need adjusting :P
08:52<pm|work>The crucial point not yet decided how it works is: how are they stopped from falling into their star. They cannot be formed that far inward.
08:52<Celestar>40m to go
08:53<Celestar>for the Soyuz till docking.
08:53<Celestar>new ISS crew arriving today
08:53<pm|work>aye :) You got to do anything with it?
08:53<Celestar>I really hope the Darwin or TPF missions get their go-ahead soon
08:53<Celestar>not directly. except that NASA TV is the TV channel I watch most
08:53<Celestar>because I'm a space-nut
08:53<Celestar>and an airplane-nut
08:54<Celestar>I don't feel like staying on the ground :P
08:54<pm|work>The funny thing: military has the most advanced tracking algorithms. But you don't get hold of them :S
08:54<Celestar>the OWL would have been of some help too
08:54<pm|work>--> military air space control and automatic air craft recoginition
08:54<Celestar>but it got cancelled :S
08:55<pm|work>It got re-named. ELT
08:55<Celestar>and smaller
08:55<Celestar>are 40m enough for direct planet imaging?
08:55<pm|work>Depends upon distance to star and distance star-planet and absolute magnitude of star and size of planet
08:56<Celestar>we need a proper telescope on the moon.
08:56<Celestar>I'm still amazed how the Soyuz docking system works.
08:56<Celestar>totally autonomous if need be.
08:56<pm|work>yeah... quite a nice tech
08:56<Celestar>the ATV is basically the only other vehicle who can do it... and that's a week old :P
08:56<pm|work>Russians build robust
08:57<Celestar>Soyuz is OLD
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08:57<pm|work>yes... and proven space-worthy :)
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08:57<pm|work>proven concept is so important for space tech... it's really difficult to get things qualified...
08:58<Celestar>"There are two problems in spaceflight: Gravitation and paperwork. We can lick gravity, but the paperwork is overwhelming"
08:58<Celestar>Wernher von Braun
08:58<pm|work>Don't remind me :S
08:59<pm|work>Got a report to write... - and it's only planning phase.
09:00<Celestar>I've a draft paper to finish till Tuesday
09:00<Celestar>and currently, I have zip
09:00<Celestar>zero, nada, nothing, niente
09:00<Celestar>I have results tho :P
09:00<Celestar>I just need to write about 8 pages of text :P
09:00<pm|work>Then the rest is just low-brain work :D
09:01<Celestar>the usual yada-yada and brown-nosing people who are important in the business (references)
09:01*Celestar hates this
09:01<pm|work>laber-rhabarber :).
09:01*pm|work hates that, too
09:01-!-pm|work is now known as planetmaker
09:01<Celestar>no one reads that anyway :)
09:02<planetmaker>Important are two things: abstract and summary.
09:02<Celestar>1) read abstract, 2) look at figures, 3) add to references
09:03<Celestar>I have my headings already however :P
09:04<Celestar>there is quite some traffic going on at the ISS recently.
09:05<Celestar>Atlantis, Progress 18, ATV, Endeavour, TMA-12, Discovery coming soon... it really begins to become a lively place
09:05*Celestar likes that
09:05*Celestar finds a doctor for his Medical Class 2
09:05*planetmaker likes that too. Space: the final frontier.
09:05<planetmaker>Medical Class 2?
09:05*Celestar knows about 90% of all Star Trek Eps except ST:Enterprise
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09:06<Celestar>yeah, cuz I'm considering applying to ESA for the astronaut training
09:06*planetmaker knows basically all TNG episodes...
09:06<Celestar>the next screening takes place in May and will be the last one till at LEAST 2017/2018
09:06<planetmaker>Celestar: do so :). Training centre is in cologne
09:06<Celestar>there's some stuff in Oberpfaffenhofen as well
09:06<Celestar>plus the Col-CC :)
09:07<planetmaker>Yeah, but Oberpfaffenhofen is IIRC mostly ground control
09:08<Celestar>the dilemma is, being a space nut, you basically have to pray for McCain to win the elections :S
09:08<planetmaker>Though Oberpfaffenhofen is DLR while ESA's control is near Darmstatt, I think
09:08<planetmaker>uh, you think so?
09:09<Celestar>because both Obama and Clinton have basically said to axe NASA's budget considerably
09:09<planetmaker>hm... :(
09:09<planetmaker>good for earth, but bad for space?
09:09<Celestar>bad for space is bad for earth
09:09<planetmaker>oh, well. I guess there can be some kind of trade-off.
09:10*planetmaker thinks that mankind is made to extend it's reach. And as earth is now completely occupied...
09:10<Celestar>well, leaving the western world without a means of brining a single person to space is NOT an acceptable trade-off imho.
09:11<Celestar>and the shuttles will go offline in less than 36 months.
09:11<Celestar>We in Europe have everything we need for manned spaceflight. We just don't do it :S
09:11<planetmaker>ah, I think 48. Nevertheless. Small
09:12<planetmaker>ESA's budget is small compared to NASA
09:12<Celestar>planetmaker: currently the last shuttle mission is planned for March 18, 2010. That's less than 24 months away. There's an optional one in April 2010.
09:12<Celestar>and that'S it
09:13<planetmaker>And especially hampering is the equi-partition principle: whichever country pais x% has to get x% of the money spent. Really usefull...
09:13<planetmaker>Hm, I heard somewhere an extension to 2012 for the shuttle. But alas, no source at my hands right now
09:13<Celestar>ESA has the Ariane 5, which is man-ratable with very little effort and the ATV which is man-rated. What we need is a Launch Escape System which is old technology and a return capsule which is as old technology
09:14<Celestar>The extension has been cancelled to get Orion up no later than 2014, 2013 if possible.
09:14<Celestar>planetmaker: do you know the book "Entering Space" by Bob Zubrin.
09:14<planetmaker>sorry, don't know it.
09:15<Celestar>do yourself a favor and order it. It's great reading
09:15<planetmaker>:) I add it to my "to buy books"-list.
09:16<Celestar>I'Ve read it about 3 times in the path 3 months :P
09:16<Celestar>so the ESA could have a manned space program for less than 2 billion.
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09:16<planetmaker>I doubt 2 billion would do it.
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09:17<Celestar>planetmaker: most of the work is done. it's called ATV
09:17<planetmaker>Even though the concept is clear, it would need to be planned, built, tested and qualified before.
09:17<Celestar>it is qualified :)
09:17<Celestar>that's the nice thing
09:17<planetmaker>I know the ATV. Last time it was still at estec ...
09:18<planetmaker>And they were... having troubles with their cables... :S
09:18<Celestar>yeah .. they've learnt for Airbus apparently :P
09:18<planetmaker>But it's 6 month ago.
09:18<Celestar>no matter ... we spend 10 billion a year for windmills in Germany alone
09:19<planetmaker>I don't mind that. But subsidies for digging for coal or for leaving farm land unsused...
09:20<Celestar>well, you can find plenty of example in Europe where money is wasted
09:20<Celestar>putting this into a man-rated launch vehicle would be more benefical
09:22<planetmaker>yeah. Full ACK
09:25*planetmaker reccomends that you apply for the medical :)
09:25*planetmaker also thinks that an engineering, medical of science background with PhD will help
09:26<Celestar>Aerospace Engineer
09:26<Celestar>doing my PhD
09:26<planetmaker>Fair enough, I say :)
09:26<Celestar>yeah, only my optics is on the Borderline of the Medical Class 2
09:27<planetmaker>uh... what does it say?
09:27<Celestar>-8 max
09:28<Celestar>I have -7.75
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09:30<Celestar>planetmaker: if possible, I'll apply. They only take 8 out of around 20.000 anyways
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09:30<planetmaker>uh... well. That's it. It's anyway in for some fun, if they'll have you around at least for the initial tests.
09:31<Celestar>Centrifuge :P
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09:31<planetmaker>Yeah. Possibly also reduced-pressure chamber. That's funny...
09:31<Celestar>did you do it?
09:31<planetmaker>You really start to do funny things...
09:31<planetmaker>Had to do it once
09:31<Celestar>I do funny things without being in a reduced-pressure chamber :P
09:31<planetmaker>to get permission for parabolic flights
09:32<planetmaker>Celestar: but in that chamber you do it w/o realizing :)
09:32<Celestar>yeah :)
09:32<Celestar>a colluege of mine is just doing parabolic flights in BOD
09:32<planetmaker>yeah. One of mine, too :)
09:32<Celestar>he :)
09:32<Celestar>I helped him code C :)
09:33<planetmaker>It's great fun.
09:33<planetmaker>We run labview :D
09:33<Celestar>yeah he does quite a bit of Labview as well
09:34<Celestar>russians ...
09:34<Celestar>"We are not building the international space station for tourists" :P
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09:36<Celestar>hmm this ATV is really big a vehicle... about as large as the Apollo CSM
09:36<Celestar>not quite as heavy
09:37<Celestar>(less Delta-V so less fuel)
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09:37<planetmaker>yep. Something like 4m diameter with 6 height?
09:37<Celestar>yeah. pretty much as large as columbus
09:38<Celestar>no bigger. sorry
09:38<Celestar>4.5m diameter and 10m long
09:38<Celestar> <= nice image
09:39<Celestar>the SPS on the Apollo looks too large :P
09:39<Celestar>(the nozzle that is)
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09:39<planetmaker>oh, right. Was just recalling from when I saw it. In a big integration hall it looks small(er) :P
09:40<Celestar>well, yeah
09:40<Celestar>compared to an A380 :)
09:40*Celestar wants to see the Ares V fly
09:41<Celestar>it's really a bigass launcher
09:42<planetmaker>yeah! And I've gotta go to Speyer to see once the Buran which they recently aquired...
09:43<Celestar>yeah, but it's still en-route isn't it?
09:43*planetmaker is called for a cake :) So cu later, I guess :)
09:43<@orudge>bring some back for the rest of us
09:44<planetmaker>Celestar: I think it should have arrived...
09:44<@Belugas>better been called for a cake than a kick
09:44<planetmaker>I'll try to beam over some cake, though :)
09:44*orudge calls Belugas for a kick
09:45<@Belugas>want a kick fight maaaaan ?
09:46<@orudge>well, not relaly.
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10:40<elmex>wow, leveling under things works nearly everywhere, thats reallly great, and yapp, and all, and awww...
10:40<@Belugas>awww? sounds like a nice feature...
10:40<@Belugas>what's it do?
10:42<@Belugas>Create A Town Subsidy ?
10:42<hylje>all your towns are belong to us
10:49<@Belugas>no towns belong to nobody!
10:49<@Belugas>Capitalistic dreams of World Domination!!
10:49<@Belugas>BACK OFF!!!
10:50*Belugas wonders if "capitalistic" is a real word ...
10:52<@orudge>sure it is
10:52<@orudge>I think
10:54<[1]Roujin>how can i directly initialize Points?
10:55<[1]Roujin>something like Point(1, 1) ?
10:55<hylje>you're so spoiled by python!
10:55<[1]Roujin>i'm not oO
10:56<[1]Roujin>i don't know python :P
10:56<hylje>well you just uttered the exact way of initializing any objects in there
11:00<Celestar>Point A = {1,1}; ?
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11:01<[1]Roujin>thanks Celestar, that's what I was looking for...
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11:01<[1]Roujin>used wrong braces ><
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11:14<Eddi|zuHause2><Celestar> because both Obama and Clinton have basically said to axe NASA's budget considerably <- it's not like the president has THAT much influence on the budget anyway
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11:41<Eddi|zuHause2>"Wenn ein Gesetz mit Geld zu tun hat, muss der Entwurf [im Repräsentantenhaus] seinen Ursprung haben. [...] Wir halten fest: Wenn der Senat oder gar der Präsident von sich aus anfangen über Geld reden, kann man das getrost ignorieren."
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12:03<@Belugas>rgarde, j'comprends rien de ta patente, Eddi|zuHause2. Rien pantoute
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12:04<Eddi|zuHause2>lo siento.
12:05<Eddi|zuHause2>Belugas: it's a quote to support my previous statement, it basically says "any law regarding money has to origin in the house of representatives, if the senate or the president start talking about money, you can ignore that"
12:07<@Belugas>hhaaaaa.... hoooo....
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12:07<@Belugas>lo comprendo
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13:24<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12652 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: rework the order GUI a little more to make it a little more clear that 'transfer' is just an unload type.
13:24<SpComb> <-- heh, that's the source code of by /sbin/init
13:25*SpComb is running openttd (and nothing else, and I mean nothing else, openttd is running as pid=1) inside a vserver
13:25<Progman>literaly dedicated server ;)
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13:27<@peter1138>pre-setup network? :o
13:28<SpComb>yeah, it runs on top of the same kernel as the host machine
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13:30<SpComb> <-- fs-tree
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13:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12653 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: disable load/unload dropdowns when there is a 'via' non-stop order to emphasize that loading/unloading will not be done.
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14:01<Patrick`>is there a channel specifically for openttd multiplayer games?
14:01<@Belugas>only one i know would be the openttdcoop
14:04<Patrick`>actually, dihedral's server looks pretty good
14:05<Patrick`>noooooooooo! ut's the wrong climate!
14:10<SpComb>hmm... it seems openttd forks on startup
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14:21<@Belugas>i hate forks
14:21<@Belugas>i'd rather use spoons
14:24<KingJ>How resource intensive is the Win OpenTTD dedi server in terms of CPU/RAM/Net Usage?
14:26<@Belugas>same as regular game, iirc
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14:32<Diadem>Quick quiz question: What is the optimal distance to transport coal with an Ginzu A4. Profit wise
14:33<ln>210 × 297 mm
14:34<@Belugas>Whooouu... a quizz... ho.. i
14:34<@Belugas>m so excited...
14:34<@Belugas>hem hem hem...
14:34<[1]Roujin>I'd say preferably a distance where a coal mine is at one end and a power plant at the other end.
14:34<[1]Roujin>everything else would be less profitable...
14:35<Diadem>Nope, more than 256
14:35*Belugas thinks [1]Roujin wanted to write "map" but did not!
14:35<Diadem>assume a completely straight line, and indeed a coal mine at one end an a power plant at another
14:35<Diadem>no bumps along the route
14:35<@Belugas>ho... don't let me die of curiosity!!!! THE ANSWER THE ANSWER!!!!
14:36<Diadem>About 1400 tiles
14:36*[1]Roujin is not sure what Belugas is talking about oO
14:36*Belugas may have wrongfully understood [1]Roujin's post ;)
14:37<Diadem>Well prices go up linearly with distance but they go down faster than linearly with tranport time
14:37<Diadem>so there should be an optimal distance
14:37<Ammler>[1]Roujin: New patch idea for you, something like a "same year repeater" or time stopper ;-)
14:37<Diadem>After a certain distance time penalties become so harsh that extra distance doesn't help anymore
14:38<[1]Roujin>except that the time penalty stops at some point completely and from then on profit raises again until infinity *cough*
14:39<[1]Roujin>at least that's what someone else found out... somewhere in the development section he tried fixing that somehow...
14:40<[1]Roujin>ah, that's what i meant
14:40<Diadem>the maximum penalty according to the wiki is 88%
14:40<Diadem>taht's so harsh that it's not worth it trying to beat it with huge distance
14:41<Diadem>I don't know exactly when it's reached. But clearly not yet with a 1400 tile route with the worst train in the set
14:42<Diadem>to make more profit with a longer route at maximum penalty you'd need a 6000 or so tile route. Impossible :)
14:43<[1]Roujin>throw in huge maps patch, make a map with biggest size, build a line from one edge of the map to the other and wait some years (possible real time, not game time ;)) - kaCHING! :P
14:43<Patrick`>Roujin, I did that
14:44<Patrick`>with 64 x 65536 it takes about 4 years
14:44<Patrick`>for a monorail
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14:44<Patrick`>er, maglev
14:44<Diadem>and what was the payment?
14:45<Patrick`>not that much
14:45<Patrick`>under a million
14:45<Patrick`>3 or 400k
14:45<Patrick`>when I'd usually scoop 100k for a 1024 tile
14:45<Diadem>what goods and what train lenght?
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14:45<Patrick`>coal, 8 wagons
14:45<Patrick`>that patch does go all the way up to a million tiles long
14:46<Patrick`>but the map generation takes about an hour
14:46<Patrick`>and uses 1.4 gig of ram
14:46<Diadem>I make 400K on a 1000 tile route with 12 steel wagons. With trains doing 160kph
14:46<Patrick`>on 65536 it took me over a minute just to scroll to the end
14:46<Patrick`>maybe it was 500k
14:46<Patrick`>the time was so high
14:46<Diadem>So basicly not worth it beating time penalty
14:46<Patrick`>problem is the game never got rebalanced for huge maps
14:47<Diadem>luckily it's very lentient. You can easily take half a year to transport stuff
14:47<Diadem>So we can safely say "longer is better unless you play with maps over 5000 tiles long" :)
14:48<Patrick`>on a "max" sized map, you're fine
14:48<Diadem>but who really wants such big maps?
14:48<Diadem>I'm playing on a 1024x1024 map, I've been spending AGES on the game now and only hooked up 1/6th of all industries or something
14:48<bowman>for multiplayer you may want more
14:49<Diadem>actually I think multiplayer you can do a lot less because you can't pause the game all the time :)
14:49<bowman>thats what the other people are for hehe
14:51<Diadem>I've tried openttd coop. But their networks are actually tiny
14:51<Patrick`>wait, what?
14:51<Patrick`>they're grotesquely enormous, full of bypasses and 6x6 junctions
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14:52<Diadem>Not those I have seen
14:52<Diadem>perhaps I've looked at the wrong game
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14:54<Patrick`>current public server one
14:54<Patrick`>at least as of 2 days ago
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14:54<Patrick`>unless they restarted
14:55<bowman>I find that even with pausing most industries close before you can get them connected, on maps larger than 512x
14:55<Diadem>ah I found their archive
14:55<bowman>at least it feels like a ton of them close hehe
14:55<Diadem>Their biggest game ever according to their archive has 1004 trains
14:56<Diadem>My current game has almost 600 and it's only 1967
14:58<Patrick`>yeah, but thier map is like half tracks
14:59<@Belugas>[14:54] <bowman> I find that even with pausing most industries close before you can get them connected, on maps larger than 512x <-- known. work on fixing this has already started. The closure of industries will not be affected, just the renew of them
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15:22<Wolf01>hi RichK67
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15:46<@Belugas>#Bed's too big without YOU!
15:49<+glx>wrong chan Belugas I think
15:49*Belugas is confused
15:49*hylje spawns more overlords
16:00<Progman>we are the swarm
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16:51<@peter1138>may nothing but happiness come through your door
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16:53<@Belugas>So rare,
16:53<@Belugas>it has not totall reached forums :S
16:54<@peter1138>babe, i'm gonna leave you
16:55<SmatZ>I wonder, people don't read wiki, they don't even look thaough patch options, they just post on tt-forums, or post on tt-forums with "BUG!?" in topic, or,even worse, they report it at
16:57<@Belugas>Leave you when the summer comes a-rollin'
16:57<@Belugas>indeed SmatZ...
16:59<@peter1138>any particular post you're talking about, or just in general?
16:59<@Belugas>and speacking of LACK of intelligence... ->
17:00<SmatZ>peter1138: just in general - now there are two recent threads with "even transparent trees block my view" (they don't know about the Invisible trees option), or often required "game is so fast/slow" "planes earn too much money" etc... it is still the same
17:00<SmatZ>or very often mentioned "stupid AI"
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17:01<@Belugas>anyone with below 20 posts are, generally
17:01<SmatZ>and bugreports about "train waiting in a station" (because it was given a timetable)
17:02<SmatZ>hehe @ Belugas :)
17:04<@Belugas>and now... home
17:04<@Belugas>by bye
17:04<SmatZ>bye bye Belugas
17:07<Wolf01>mmmhmhm, not nice... cities are building parallel roads, like a 2x2 grid into a 3x3 grid
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17:17<SmatZ>Wolf01: did you change the grid?
17:17<SmatZ>from 3x3 to 2x2?
17:17<SmatZ>or to "Random"?
17:18<Wolf01>maybe to random
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18:07<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12654 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remove some unneeded right click handling due to the splitting of the load/refit button.
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18:16<dragonhorseboy>anyone know what would cause ecs town vector to disable itself?
18:16*dragonhorseboy is trying to figure out this silly thing re getting ecs loaded for multiplay
18:16<dragonhorseboy>several other ecs vectors are already loading just fine
18:16<Patrick`>is there anything between the complexity of ecs and the regular set of industries?
18:16<SmatZ>maybe wrong landscape?
18:17<SmatZ>maybe you are using another town replacement set
18:17<SmatZ>I don't know
18:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12655 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Change: show the current state in the drop down 'buttons'.
18:17<Eddi|zuHause2>or wrong order of grfs?
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18:18<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12656 /trunk/src/ (39 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: tooltips for some order buttons are outdated/incorrect.
18:19<dragonhorseboy>hm you telling me I can't have chemicals vector loaded at all just because of using north america building grf?
18:19<dragonhorseboy>(that vector wants the town vector loaded...and the latter is disabled..meh)
18:19<Eddi|zuHause2>Patrick`: there is Pikka's Basic Industries (PBI)
18:20<Patrick`>oh I remember that
18:20<Patrick`>I gave up because the forum didn't allow 3-letter searches and google only turned up the pc-bsd archive format
18:20<Eddi|zuHause2>also, that can be extended by the "Brick Chain"
18:20<Patrick`>but now that i know it's pikka
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18:20<Eddi|zuHause2>you know, there is grfcrawler
18:20<Patrick`>my maps tend to spider out and only have one-way junctions etc
18:21<dragonhorseboy>so do I have to do without the chemical/construction vectors or ?
18:21<Patrick`>because all they're doing is funelling everything to one consumption
18:21<Eddi|zuHause2>dragonhorseboy: what does chemical have to do with town vector?
18:21<dragonhorseboy>eddi..its saying it requires the town vector
18:21<dragonhorseboy>and well they're disabling themself because town vector got disabled :/
18:22<Eddi|zuHause2>wasn't there a "basic vector"?
18:22<dragonhorseboy>yes and that one is enabled
18:22<Eddi|zuHause2>and like SmatZ indicated, do you use the right climate?
18:23<dragonhorseboy>its temperate heh :">
18:23<Eddi|zuHause2>or rather, the right grf for the climate?
18:23<Eddi|zuHause2>some of the ECS grfs were divided for each climate
18:23<dragonhorseboy>yeah I noticed there were a few other for tropical/pikka .. don't have these in the newgrf list
18:24<Eddi|zuHause2>and the order of grfs is relevant
18:24<Eddi|zuHause2>and generally, you are probably doing something wrong
18:24<Eddi|zuHause2>i hate english
18:26<Patrick`>Eddi|zuHause2: I just found out about grfcrawler from what you said
18:26<dragonhorseboy>eddi the only warnings they give in about any order is to have town vector loaded before
18:26<dragonhorseboy>nothing else
18:26<dragonhorseboy>(and yes I did try enable/disable the working vectors to check)
18:28<Patrick`>I remember once seeing a diagram of cargo dependancy in ECS linked from here
18:29<Eddi|zuHause2>Patrick`: it's all on georges pages
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18:30<Patrick`>yeah, was crawling them
18:30<dragonhorseboy>hmm wiki only explains each vector..not much about putting them together
18:31<Eddi|zuHause2>dragonhorseboy: order them by the last two digits of the GRF-ID
18:32<Patrick`>I've probably got the wrong site then, this one's been updated but it mostly reads like it's from 1995
18:33<Patrick`>sleep, will find it later
18:33<SmatZ>nn Patrick`
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18:35<Patrick`>dur, or not
18:35<Patrick`>I really want a poster of this now :)
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18:38<dragonhorseboy>quick question...
18:38<Eddi|zuHause2>too slow.
18:38<dragonhorseboy>is 'ecs vehicles alpha 1' a vector or just rv refit?
18:39<Eddi|zuHause2>"vehicles" means refit options
18:39<Eddi|zuHause2>it doesn't provide any industries
18:39<dragonhorseboy>thought so ty
18:40<Eddi|zuHause2>i think it's for all default vehicles, not only road
18:40<Eddi|zuHause2>and it assumes that you do not use newgrf sets
18:40<dragonhorseboy>well brb to eat then I'll be back to figure out more of this :p
18:41<Eddi|zuHause2>first you are back and then you are back? how does that work?
18:56<dragonhorseboy>north america city, north america road, us station, planeset, newship, industrial station renewal, generic tram, canadian station, canadian trainset, newbridges, [insert all ecs here], LV4
18:56<dragonhorseboy>thats what the newgrf list is like eddi
19:03<Dominik>why are cargo vectors called cargo vectors?
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19:06<DaleStan>Because "cargo vectors" is what George calls them.
19:09<ln>eclipse is a long-lasting inside joke, isn't it?
19:09<ln>surely no one uses it for real development?
19:10<dragonhorseboy>hm ok...ECS coal mine says its waiting to process 0 vehicles
19:10<dragonhorseboy>guess there's something buggering it...*unloads all ecs*
19:10<SmatZ>we use eclipse at school...
19:10<SmatZ>way better than JBuilder we used before
19:17<Dominik>i'm currently struggling with eclipse. i tried moving over to it from kdevelop because i don't want to use too much kde. it has its plusses, but also its quirks : /
19:18<ln>i have to say that with 4 cores and 4 GB of RAM the slowness is not an issue, but other things are.
19:19<Wezz6400>I've noticed the other day that eclipse is much, much faster on linux than it is on windows
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19:24<dragonhorseboy>hm got a map running for now anyhow ^-^
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 11 00:00:46 2008