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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-05-01

---Logopened Thu May 01 00:00:46 2008
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02:27<Patrick`_>what's the difference between a duck?
02:27<Patrick`_>one has feathers.
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03:00<mynetdude>talking to yourself tonight Patrick`_?
03:01<Patrick`_>no, I just lost the game
03:01<mynetdude>ah :(
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03:23<xkrchnav>good morning
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03:26<Alberth>good morning
03:28<Roest>how are we this morning
03:32<Alberth>quite nice, sun is shining, enjoying my days off, figured out that I should make a doc about intra-window comm so we can have a discussion.
03:32<Alberth>only minor problem is lack of mail from FS
03:33<Alberth>devs must be very busy with other things
03:34<Roest>guess they have it a little slower after the stress of the last weeks
03:34<Alberth>that is also part of 'other things' :)
03:35<Roest>good thing is, with less commits, less problems to merge old patches :)
03:37<Roest>though i must say, a little dev feedback on what needs to be done to get something at least considered for trunk would help every now and then
03:37<Alberth>indeed. In my case, I want to stack a few patches on top of currently waiting patches. However I don't dare doing that without confidence that the current ones are ok
03:38<Alberth>on the other hand, plenty of room for experimenting with next steps
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04:05<Roest>hmm having twenty gazillion vehicle grfs might be nice, but i guess i just stick to one trainset
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04:32<@peter1138>"primarily removes the fixed engine type limits"
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04:32<@peter1138>"also happens to allow multiple NewGRF vehicle sets to coexist"
04:33<Roest>wasn't a critique
04:33<@peter1138>i know
04:33<Roest>just tested it, with several trainsets activated
04:33<Roest>i can tell you it works tho
04:34-!-Ammler [] has joined #openttd
04:35<Roest>morning Ammler, btw do you guys keep the grf pack updated somehow?
04:35<Roest>or is 7.0 the final version
04:38<@peter1138>it's in svn, isn't it?
04:38<@peter1138>so you can svn up occasionally, heh
04:38<Roest>oh is it
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04:39<Roest> somehow my stations don't look so good
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04:44<Alberth>I definitely need to play more with GRF files
04:46<Roest>peter1138: they hid their svn url pretty well
04:46<Roest>n/m found it
04:51<Ammler>Roest: 7.1 is ready
04:51<Ammler>it just needs releasing
04:52<Roest>well i checked out from svn now
04:52<Roest>i wonder if the german rv set will ever be released, that homepage leads to a 404 now
04:53<Ammler>Roest: trunk won't be compatible with servers.
04:53<Ammler>thats why we hide the trunk :-)
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04:55<Roest>so i just tested my patchpack and noticed a train driving on the wrong side, thought: great something broke yapp
04:55<Roest>then i noticed it didnt even have a path to the right side, so everything is good now
04:56<Roest>thought i share
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05:02<wleader-away>Quick question, Who be the master of
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05:03<Alberth>everybody probably
05:03<wleader>well, yes. But I mean more along the lines of who administrates it.
05:06<Progman>wleader: -> select the Group "Sysops"
05:09<wleader>Looks like the usual suspects.
05:10<Roest>no surprise
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05:29<Ammler>Roest: that stationtiles are still in working progress, you won't find them anywhere.
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05:35<@peter1138>not that
05:36<Roest>grammar sergeant peter1138
05:36<@peter1138>gah, stupid winamp
05:36<@peter1138>can't scroll its media library lists without clicking on each one first
05:37<Roest>besides ammler is swiss, they haven't even decided on one language yet
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05:38<Ammler>we have added a 4. some years ago :-)
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05:38<Roest>i'm thinking about starting a new paxdest, but that task seems so huge, i rather sit here and do nothing
05:39<Ammler>that would be the 4. one?
05:40<Roest>i don't know, i only know the one we're using right now
05:41<Roest>but i don't think anyone can fix the mutiplayer issues in the current one
05:43<Ammler>prissi did the 2. almost a year ago
05:43<@peter1138>destinations needs to be done in stages
05:44<@peter1138>it also needs to be not passenger only
05:44<Roest>yes peter1138 that's what i'm thinking, the current one is too big and overloaded with features
05:47<Roest>step one would be generate the list of connected stations, though the question is limit destionations to connected stations, all stations or even all towns
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06:03<Ammler>omg that would be too much realistic, you would need to make the network for the cargo, not like now, where the cargo follows your network :-)
06:03<Ammler>new tiype of gameplay then.
06:03<@peter1138>it should of course be optional
06:04<@peter1138>no destinations, passenger destinations, and all cargo destinations
06:04<@peter1138>the current patches are way too strongly tied to passengers only
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06:05<Ammler>same like ECS, more will be too complicated to play
06:05<Roest>ecs is already too complicated imho
06:06<@peter1138>actually, 4 options
06:06<@peter1138>no destinations, passenger destinations, all non-freight cargo, and all cargo destinations
06:06<@peter1138>third includes mail and valuables
06:06<@peter1138>i think valuables anyway
06:06<@peter1138>ecs sucks ;)
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06:07<@peter1138>ecs is way too complicated with its secret codes and such like
06:07<@peter1138>and the graphics don't fit in too well
06:07<Tefad>secret codes?
06:07<@peter1138>in the industry view window
06:07<Roest>non freight? i take it that passenges, mail and valuables?
06:08<@peter1138>Roest: yes, as i said
06:08<Roest>oh missed that line
06:08<Ammler>and tourists ;-)
06:08<@peter1138>no, they can go in the tanker wagons i reckon
06:09<Roest>transport giant had an interesting approach, every town had a random list of other towns on the map where passengers want to go
06:09<@peter1138>that might be a simple solution
06:09<Roest>but that wouldn't work with inner town transports
06:10<Roest>unless you divide them into commuters and travellers
06:10<@peter1138>do it on a per-station basis then, instead of per-town
06:12<Ammler>Roest: I guess, prissi did something like this
06:13<Onack>split them into travellers and workers :P
06:13<Onack>workers within a city and travellers(eventually buissnessmen) to other cities
06:14<Roest>actually i dislike that idea
06:14<Ammler>I miss that "cargo-type" on the ECS scheme
06:14<@peter1138>just have more local traffic than long-range
06:15<@peter1138>could be a difficulty setting
06:15<@peter1138>otoh, local traffic is easier to transport but less profitable
06:17<Onack>and a worker would never use a chopper or a concorde
06:17<Roest>and a businessman never a bus
06:18<Ammler>that would push Roujins Traffic patch
06:19<Onack>if this was possible it could also be smarter to have fewer but larger cities
06:19<wleader>You can have fewer and larger cities by using minimum town distance, and adjusting town growth.
06:20<Onack>i havent tested it mutch, thanks ill test it
06:20<wleader>The town growth settings are in the trunk. Minimum town distance is not, but its a very simple patch that adjusts a constant.
06:20<Onack>problem in large cities atm is that bus stations got 2000 passangers
06:21<Ammler>Onack: TRAMS
06:21<Onack>by dividing the people into classes
06:21<Onack>you need different transportations for different classes
06:22<Roest>ammler most trams dont solve that problem
06:22<Roest>their capacities are too low compared to busses
06:22<Ammler>with the new conditinal orders you can build really nice pass networks
06:22<@peter1138>that's what 'tourists' exist for, heh
06:23<Onack>tourist is a class yes :)
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06:23<@peter1138>wleader: nice warning :)
06:23<Onack>but doesnt solve that everyone and their mother wants to use a helicopter
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06:24<wleader>peter: On the wiki pages?
06:24<wleader>peter: Just trying to play nice.
06:26<@peter1138>i know
06:28<Ammler>wleader: yorick reached to pack a MP save TS / YAPP combination
06:28<@peter1138>still doesn't make sense
06:28<Ammler>thx ;-)
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06:29<Ammler>we had desyncs with the civ
06:29<Ammler>but no desyncs with yorick's patchpack
06:30<wleader>I was just posting to the forum about the desyncs. and I looked back at IRC because I was going to ask if anyone had suggestions about how to debug desyncs.
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06:36<Ammler>is it possible to make a "nonGPLd" patch for OpenTTD?
06:36<cjk>what you do with your .diff it does not matter
06:36<Tefad>you can make a patch all day long
06:37<Tefad>however if it isn't GPL it will not make it into trunk
06:37<Alberth>and neither can you distribute it afaik
06:37<Tefad>nah i think that's fine
06:37<Tefad>it's just that users need to actively manipulate the source
06:38<Tefad>can't be done for them
06:38<cjk>if patch means .diff then, as said, it's not that interesting; if it's an openttd patch (bad wording btw), something else applies
06:38<Tefad>maybe an automated process, but the patch can't be distributed inside trunk code
06:38<Tefad>in other words, it'd be a royal ass-pain to have people use your patch
06:39<Ammler>but you can take all patches published in tt-forums or fs as GPLd?
06:40<Ammler>I mean the diffs :-)
06:40<Alberth>I am not sure about this. For OpenTTD itself, you can distribute a binary, as long as you provide (a pointer) to the source. I think you can also distribute a patched version, as long as you give the patch in source form away too.
06:41<Ammler>if you publish the source, then that means, its GPLd, doesn't?
06:41<Tefad>you cannot distribute a binary with a patch compiled in that isn't GPL
06:42<Alberth>Ammler: I think you have to ask the authors explicitly, or have them sign a paper that they do. When you read GNU dev docs, they devote a large part of the administration to tracking who wrote/changed what.
06:42<Roest>ammler there's a new version of the dutch tram set
06:42<Tefad>you cannot distribute GPL code with non-gpl patches in-place
06:42<Ammler>Roest: for ottd now, too?
06:43<Ammler>or do you mean rev23?
06:43<Tefad>source code or machine/binary executable.
06:43<Roest>i'm using that one, r20 for a while now
06:43<Alberth>Ammler: no, MicroSoft could theoretically publish the source and have a license that forbids to use it unless you pay them
06:43<Ammler>r20 will be in 7.1
06:43<Roest>you still have r15 listed or is your html file just out of date
06:43<cjk>Hm, what does "minimum cargo moved to station" in table/build_industry.h mean?
06:43<Ammler>oh, well, possible that r20 is already in 7.0
06:44<Roest>in the set i just checked out it is still r15
06:44<Tefad>Ammler: the GPL is written in such a way that it is very difficult to contribute code without your contribution also being GPL code.
06:44<Ammler>Alberth: I asked about OTTD diff
06:45<Alberth>Formally, a patch has a GPL license when the author agrees to that
06:45<Ammler>because there is no patch
06:45<Ammler>which has written something about a license
06:45<Tefad>why are you trying to not use the GPL for your patch?
06:46<Alberth>In America that means lots of trouble
06:46<Ammler>no, I am asking, if I am allowed to use others patches
06:46<Roest>ammler i'm under the impression i can use everything posted on the forums
06:47<Ammler>because wleader has something written about that in the rules for CIV
06:47<trd>As far as I understand it, GPL says that if you use someone elses code, you have to leave a note that you took the code from them.. no?
06:47<Ammler>and I am not sure, if that is really needed
06:47<cjk>trd: no
06:47<cjk>it's obvious you have to leave the ©s in though
06:47<Roest>no one has sued me yet for putting their stuff into one pack
06:47<Alberth>The question is whether published code is automatically GPL, I think not
06:48<Alberth>euh s/code/diff/
06:48<Ammler>wleader: you should remove that paragraph then
06:51<Tefad>no, if no license is expressed, it is assumed the owner retains full rights to the code
06:52<Tefad>even if the owner is anonymous
06:53<Ammler>Tefad: but if you publish your source on the forums, you would like others to use your patch, else it doesn't make sense...
06:53<Alberth>why? Maybe I just want others to give comment on it
06:54<Ammler>but then you need to write that
06:54<Roest>actually i want others to put comments intomy code, so i dont have to do that
06:54<Ammler>like some does in the readmes for GRFs
06:55<Alberth>If I just publish a patch without comment whatsoever, you have no way of knowing
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06:56<Alberth>To get rid of legal trouble, you need explicit written permission I think. Then you can show the court hard proof. Anything electronic can too easily be modified, so it won't hold in court
06:57<Alberth>not that I'd like a move in that direction though.
06:59<cjk>git detection is broken in config.lib
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07:08<Roest>anyone here an expert with wxwidgets?
07:11<cjk>sort of
07:12<Roest>didn't expect a positive answer :)
07:13<Roest>ok here's the problem, uploading a screenshot now to explain it better
07:14<Roest>this is a wxframe with some sashlayoutwindows which hold the glwidgets
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07:14<Roest>my problem here is the propagation of the mouse events
07:15<Roest>or the no propagation
07:18<cjk>from the gl windows?
07:18<Roest>well from the glwindows through the sashlayoutwindows to the frame where the eventhandler should be located
07:19<cjk>I am not sure GL windows propagate anything by default
07:19<cjk>I have not worked with GL inside WX though.
07:19<Roest>mouseevents aren't propagated
07:20<cjk>might try #wxwidgets on freenode
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07:33<wleader>I just read the comments I missed, and thinking about it, how can a patch to GPL work not also be GPL, since the patch itself is a derived work?
07:34<Gekz>wleader: because its not derived
07:35<wleader>Gekz, I don't understand how that argument, but I would like to.
07:35<Gekz>I don't understand your sentence, but I would like to.
07:37<wleader>How is a patch not considered a derived work?
07:37<cjk>Because a recipe is just not a derived work?
07:37<wleader>I think authors of cook books might disagree.
07:38<cjk>a patch is basically instructions how to change which lines
07:38<wleader>cjk: so it is not a modified version, just instructions on how to modify.
07:40<cjk>i'd say so
07:40<cjk>unless the diff is so big you see all the code
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07:42<Chrill>Why does my trains, when entering the depot, STAY there? :P
07:42<Chrill>Have I hit some weird setting or is this a new bug in 0.6.1 RC1?
07:43-!-Osai is now known as Osai^city
07:45<cjk>you sent them to the depot?
07:46<Chrill>No, they only enter for servicing
07:46<Chrill>Only happens to one train model as well, may I add
07:49<Roest>do you have autoreplace on?
07:50<Roest>and as always with such things, a savegame would be nice
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08:00<Chrill>The AM2 of the UK trainset was replaced with Am10s. The auto-replace didn't wanna do this so I had to myself. Now, the Am10s enter the depot and stay there, as if I ordered them to
08:01<Chrill>Think it's the GRF playing around, nothin else
08:01<Chrill>tryin to send all to depot, then let em all go
08:01<Chrill>hope it'll solve it
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09:08<cjk>heh, "OpenTTD g9c620225"
09:08<+glx>a git user :)
09:09<yorick>@openttd commit g9c620225
09:09<@DorpsGek>yorick: Invalid arguments for _commit.
09:10<@Belugas>joy indeed
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09:45<@Belugas># WHERE IS EVERYBODY??
09:45<yorick>EVERYBODY's dead
09:50<Ammler>what error could it be if the server just exit, but no assert or sec fault?
09:50<@peter1138>user error
09:51<@peter1138>rcon <password> "quit"
09:51<Ammler>how do you mean "user error"?
09:51<+glx>or ctrl-c in the wrong screen
09:52<Ammler>if someone does rcon, I would see that on the console
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09:53<Ammler>ctrl-c would close the screen and you wouldn't see the output anymore
09:53<@peter1138>ctrl-c would dump you to the parent shell
09:53<@peter1138>if you had one
09:57<Ammler>well, we start ottd with autopilot/expect, so ctrl-c would just break that
09:58<+glx>maybe autopilot exited by itself then
09:58<+glx>happened before
10:01<Ammler>glx: can you remember why?
10:01<+glx>no, sorry
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---Logclosed Thu May 01 10:13:02 2008
---Logopened Thu May 01 10:13:02 2008
10:13-!-Irssi: You are now talking in #openttd
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10:55<`Ka:#openttd>Afternoon everyone
10:56<`Ka:#openttd>I don't spose anyone with some knowledge would mind taking 5minutes out to help me get my head round the 32bpp stuff and the instalation? thanks
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11:02<@peter1138:#openttd>well, good luck finding a complete 32bpp pack
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11:05<Digitalfox:#openttd>Good afternoon :)
11:07<`Ka:#openttd>ye just looking
11:08<`Ka:#openttd>ah well, soon i imagine
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11:38*Belugas:#openttd thinks about adding some logs on music_gui and such
11:38<@Belugas:#openttd>kind of getting tiresome to hear "my music is not playing" blablabla
11:39*DaleStan:#openttd thinks it failed to put the gm folder in the correct location. Or it thought "gm folder" meant "".
11:40<Sacro:#openttd>why isn't there usage?
11:42<@peter1138:#openttd>because we don't have a built-in midi player
11:47<`Ka:#openttd>just put a few hundred mp3s in winamp before youplay?
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11:49<@Belugas:#openttd>because, strangely, there are people who want the original music
11:50*Belugas:#openttd agrees with DaleStan, btw
11:55<@Belugas:#openttd>lol --->
11:55<@Belugas:#openttd>like... not understanding a thing at all
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11:57<`Ka:#openttd>why should that not be possible
11:58<`Ka:#openttd>just replace the monorail maglev skins sets with rail vehicle skins, and reskin the monorail and maglev tracks to railways, and there you go
11:58<@Belugas:#openttd>mostly because it's not only skin...
11:59<`Ka:#openttd>what else?
11:59<`Ka:#openttd>i dont know anything abotu this im not going to pretend i do, interested though
11:59<@Belugas:#openttd>and because the whole engine is really a replacement, and not just an addition. The system can tell if it is replacing the vehicle or just adding a new one based on the original
12:00<@peter1138:#openttd>but there's already a grf to enable the original vehicles
12:00<`Ka:#openttd>so he has underestimated the system rather than requesting something that isn't yet possible?
12:01<@Belugas:#openttd>not underestimate. not understanding it at all
12:01<@Belugas:#openttd>if the grf creator decided that his engine 1 replaces original engine 1, that's not up to us to make it otherwise
12:02<@Belugas:#openttd>same goes with newhouses, newindustries and all
12:03<`Ka:#openttd>i see
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12:06<Digitalfox:#openttd>It's harder to play with ECS.. Industries are always complaining of bad service When they have a 67% of service :p
12:16<@Belugas:#openttd># Brown Sugar!
12:30<@Belugas:#openttd>LUNCH TIME
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>damn i am tired...
14:27<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd><peter1138> no destinations, passenger destinations, all non-freight cargo, and all cargo destinations <- the third category should also contain all town-based cargos [goods, food, whatevernewgrfcargostheycancomeupwith]
14:28<Digitalfox:#openttd>My head is going to explode.. Too much ECS connecting everything.. *Note to himself next time don't choose so many ECS at the same time.. :p
14:39<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd><Ammler> is it possible to make a "nonGPLd" patch for OpenTTD? <- it's very hard to do a patch that does not qualify as a "derived work" [if only for the context lines] or especially "links to", from that point, the GPL states you have to put it under GPL, too, if you distribute it, otherwise you violate the GPL license of openttd
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14:40<@Belugas:#openttd>hu? nonGPLed patch?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>where the term "distribute" is a bit problematic... in german law, "distributing" can only be involving physical objects (books, CDs, ...), sending electronically can only be "reproducing" or "copying"
14:42<Ammler:#openttd>from my sight, every patch of ottd in tt-forums is automatically GPLd
14:42<@Belugas:#openttd>i would agree too
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14:44<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>yes, but a pedantic court might catch on the fact that the license was not explicitly stated
14:44<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>PS: by german law, "author" can only be a natural person, not a legal entity [like a company]
14:44<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>[or "the ottd team"]
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14:51<cjk:#openttd>still debating ...
14:52<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>no, i'm just warming up hour old discussions ;)
14:52<yorick:#openttd>huh? discussions? where?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>the "/mode +b yorick" ones
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15:42<Wolf01:#openttd>uh... "good" local authority rating and I can blow up houses but roads are untouchable
15:43<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>patch setting
15:43<Wolf01:#openttd>doesn't work!
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15:51<@Belugas:#openttd>Wolf01, can you trace back which rev you could?
15:51<@Belugas:#openttd>if ever...
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15:52<Wolf01:#openttd>r12919, I'm waiting for other bugfixing before update the nightly
15:52<@peter1138:#openttd>well that's already fixed
15:53<@peter1138:#openttd>@openttd commit 12920
15:53<@DorpsGek:#openttd>peter1138: Commit by smatz :: r12920 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2008-04-29 18:08:14 UTC)
15:53<@DorpsGek:#openttd>peter1138: -Fix (r12859): town rating was affected even after the test run
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15:55<Wolf01:#openttd>eh, a description of what noticeable bugs which a commit fixes...
15:58<Wolf01:#openttd>"fix: cannot remove town roads because test run affected town rating"
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16:00<Wolf01:#openttd>I can wait a bugfix for the eternity until somebody tell me that the bug is already fixed, because I usually read about bugs fixed, not how the code (doesn't) work
16:01<@peter1138:#openttd>if you're in the mood for waiting for bug fixes, you shouldn't be using trunk
16:02<@Belugas:#openttd>Wolf01, the commit message is fine as it is. It describe exactly the problem. You want to have the effect reflected
16:02<@Belugas:#openttd>not the same stuff
16:03<@Belugas:#openttd>plus, do you know how difficult it is to write a decent commit meesage? sometimes, it takes longer than the patch itself :P
16:04<Prof_Frink:#openttd>r1842: Fixed stuff.
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16:04<Prof_Frink:#openttd>r7294: Added features.
16:05<@Belugas:#openttd>so easy to critisize...
16:06<@peter1138:#openttd>r5123: Fix that bug Wolf01 is having but didn't tell anyone
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16:11<Tefad:#openttd>how often do you guys tell people certain behaviors aren't bugs at all but are in fact features?
16:12<@Belugas:#openttd>VERY oftenly thank you
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16:13<@Belugas:#openttd>and often, is it escalading into words fighting
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16:18<@peter1138:#openttd>but nobody forks
16:18*peter1138:#openttd points at pidgin
16:20<Prof_Frink:#openttd>peter1138: No, that's nobody forking cares
16:21*Belugas:#openttd forks Prof_Frink
16:22<Eddi|zuHause2:#openttd>real men don't fork, they spoon :p
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16:25<Pinchiukas:#openttd>is there a setting that allows me to see the price of doing anything before actually doing it?
16:27<@Belugas:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause2, keep your spoon, i'll use my fork ->
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16:29<@Belugas:#openttd>or that one even :D ->
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17:45<Sacro:#openttd>openttd > women eh lol
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17:46<welshdragon:#openttd>is there a port of openttd for the psp?
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17:50<Digitalfox:#openttd>what exactly does this mean that george said about ECS paremeters?
17:50<Digitalfox:#openttd>bit 0=1 + bit 1=1 + bit 2=1 = 7
17:50<Digitalfox:#openttd>So switch 1 1 1 isn't right?
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17:55<+glx:#openttd>the "difficulty" parameter?
17:55<@Belugas:#openttd>not at all, Digitalfox
17:55<@Belugas:#openttd>it's a bit map stuff
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17:56<Digitalfox:#openttd>So what is the right order or numbers? :\
17:56<@Belugas:#openttd>bit 0 = 1 , so value = 1
17:56<@Belugas:#openttd>bit 1 = 1, so value = 2
17:56<@Belugas:#openttd>bit 2 = 1, so value = 4
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17:56<Digitalfox:#openttd>Oh so 1 2 4 is the right switch :)
17:56<@Belugas:#openttd>bit 0,1,2 = 1 each, so value = 7
17:57<@Belugas:#openttd>right switch = 7
17:57<+glx:#openttd>difficulty param is the latest param (you need to put all others param even with default values before it)
17:57<@Belugas:#openttd>beacuse it is 1 + 2 + 4
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17:57<@Belugas:#openttd>ehehe i scared him!
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17:58<Digitalfox:#openttd>No I just don't get why I didn't understood this in the sec I read it.. .(
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17:58<Digitalfox:#openttd>Thank you Belugas + Glx :)
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18:00<welshdragon:#openttd>lolEee, OHNOES
18:00<@Belugas:#openttd>maybe because you do not play around with bits and bytes everyday, Digitalfox
18:00<@Belugas:#openttd>and me, i go home
18:00<+glx:#openttd>you're late
18:01<@Belugas:#openttd>fucking debuig session
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18:52<CIA-3:#openttd>OpenTTD: glx * r12933 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: minor errors related to industries accepted/produced cargo
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22:07<CIA-3:#openttd>OpenTTD: belugas * r12934 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Before verification of local authority, just make sure airport can physically be built there. Just moving tests
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---Logclosed Fri May 02 00:00:34 2008