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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-05-02

---Logopened Fri May 02 00:00:34 2008
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04:15<CIA-3:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r12935 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1975]: vehicles forget their manual depot order when stopping at a station. Now we just pass through the station without stopping when a vehicle has been given a depot order.
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04:58<Alberth:#openttd>too late
04:58<ln:#openttd>i was precisely on time, Bjarni was too early.
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05:36<kuifware:#openttd>Hi people! I have a question reqarding the Squirrel API in the NoAI branch: it appears the Squirrel Standard API (math, string, blob, etc.) isn't loaded; is this intentional or a missing feature for which I can file a bug?
05:36<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>there should be like a #openttd.noai channel
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05:37<kuifware:#openttd>thx I will post the question there
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06:15<Osai:#openttd>compiling for intel and powerpc builds is broken
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06:19<XeryusTC:#openttd>Osai: no it isnt
06:19<XeryusTC:#openttd>it's removed
06:19<Osai:#openttd>removed forever?
06:20<XeryusTC:#openttd>read the news on the site
06:20<Progman:#openttd>"From tomorrow onward the nightlies targets macosx-intel, macosx-powerpc and all macosx dedicated builds will be removed from the compile farm."
06:21<Osai:#openttd>I missed that in my RSS reader
06:21<Osai:#openttd>but thx
06:22<XeryusTC:#openttd>why? the universal binary works on both
06:22<Osai:#openttd>but its much bigger
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06:30<Wolf01:#openttd> seem like 2 photos, but it is only one O_O
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06:54<@peter1138:#openttd>Wolf01: weird
06:55<@peter1138:#openttd>but then, telephoto lenses do that
06:56<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>screw up depth perception?
07:00<Fingon:#openttd>it could also be two stitched images, each with different focus
07:01<@peter1138:#openttd>it's just from a long distance
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08:12<MrDowntempo:#openttd>How do I build a tunnel like this one?
08:12<MrDowntempo:#openttd>where the sides are walls and not slopes
08:13<MrDowntempo:#openttd>I've got the rest of that junction built, but the tunnel has me stumped
08:15<@peter1138:#openttd>just lower the land at the appropriate points
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08:17<MrDowntempo:#openttd>Right, but I can't lower the land and leave walls there, When I lower land it makes adjacent tiles slopes
08:17<Roest:#openttd>then you build the track and voila...
08:17<@peter1138:#openttd>it won't if you have rails built on them
08:18<MrDowntempo:#openttd>Oh I see, I got it working
08:18<@peter1138:#openttd>or indeed build the rails on afterwards
08:18<Alberth:#openttd>any one for an animated png file? :)
08:23<cjk:#openttd>MrDowntempo: a tt-deluxe invention if I remember right
08:23<cjk:#openttd>or maybe even openttd
08:24<MrDowntempo:#openttd>Yeah, I'm using openttd. lovin' it =)
08:24<MrDowntempo:#openttd>Do factories require livestock, grain, AND steel before they make goods?
08:24<cjk:#openttd>no, just one thing
08:24<MrDowntempo:#openttd>cool thanks
08:24<cjk:#openttd>in subtropical, they take copper instead... funy enough
08:29<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>hm... the colours of the rails in that picture hurt my head
08:30<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>and the curves are way too sharp
08:35<Alberth:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause3: It is a *compact* 3-way
08:35<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>doesn't matter, it can be improved without using more space
08:36<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>or using very little more space
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08:43<Alberth:#openttd>anybody know what caused cpp_gui branch to be stopped (more specific than KUDr not being happy about it)?
08:45<@peter1138:#openttd>branches don't work with openttd
08:45<@peter1138:#openttd>because we usually end up rewriting things
08:46<Alberth:#openttd>you mean the changes become too large
08:48<Alberth:#openttd>that's what I am seeing in the branch, it seems. Very general and big widget structures.
08:49<@Belugas:#openttd>KUDr was not happy with the result. he mentionned once that it shold be rewritten
08:49<@Belugas:#openttd>so it was an attempt
08:49<@Belugas:#openttd>a branch does not always lead to merge
08:49<@Belugas:#openttd>even for devs :)
08:50<Alberth:#openttd>I am writing a strategy for improving the windowing code (FS#1905), so I'd like to understand what went wrong the previous time.
08:50<@peter1138:#openttd>no, i don't mean changes become too large
08:50<@peter1138:#openttd>i guess you could say we're not very good at planning
08:51<@peter1138:#openttd>newstations was rewritten at least once
08:51<@Belugas:#openttd>planning ? watzdad?
08:51<Alberth:#openttd>Usually a piece of paper that your boss uses to smack you around the head ;)
08:55<Alberth:#openttd>So the problem was not with the changes in the branch itself, but more with other changes in the code? (peter1138: I don't get what you means with 'planning')
08:55<Alberth:#openttd>I understand that with complex changes, you try a few times before you get it right.
09:02<@peter1138:#openttd>i haven't actually looked at the cpp_gui branch
09:03<+glx:#openttd>IIRC KUDr said he didn't like what he had done
09:05<MrDowntempo:#openttd>I have a passenger train that also pickups goods before hitting one destination. The destination is also a truck stop and it is the truck that brings the goods to a station that accepts goods. I have the train set to unload for the truck, but does that prevent it from picking up passengers?
09:08<Alberth:#openttd>Hmm, ok. So it seems there is not one specific thing that I should watch out for. (instead I get to watch out for all things that can go wrong I am afraid ;) ). Tnx all for the information.
09:08<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>MrDowntempo: yeah, that won't work well
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09:09<Roujin:#openttd>hi there
09:09<MrDowntempo:#openttd>Eddi|zuHause3: Is there a better solution, preferably not requiring 2 trains
09:09<Alberth:#openttd>I'll let you know when I have my description ready. I hope you can give me some feedback on it then.
09:09<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>i don't think so
09:10<MrDowntempo:#openttd>I wish I could set unload for certain cargo types
09:10<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>the new order system might be extendible for that
09:11<MrDowntempo:#openttd>What does transfer do?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>gives you "virtual" income for half-delivered goods
09:12<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>it's what you want to do with the goods, but the passengers won't be delivered that way
09:13<Roujin:#openttd>is it time consuming to allocate stuff?
09:14<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>allocating should be O(1), initialising O(n)
09:14<Roujin:#openttd>I'm currently working on a new version of my traffic lights that needs a function to determine which is the tile with lowest TileIndex in a traffic light consist
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09:16<Roujin:#openttd>in this function, i'm kind of building a sorted list of a struct containing one TileIndex and two pointers to other instances of this struct
09:16<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>why not use std::list or something?
09:17<Roujin:#openttd>hmm i kind of need a special list, i don't think it exists by default
09:17<Roujin:#openttd>I'm doing something like a breadth first search..
09:18<cjk:#openttd>in a list? :P
09:19<Roujin:#openttd>no, over tiles
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09:19<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>how about you tell us what you are REALLY doing
09:21<Roujin:#openttd>ok, I start at one tile with a traffic light and my goal is to get the lowest TileIndex of the traffic light consist
09:21<Roujin:#openttd>traffic light consist means multiple tiles with traffic lights next to each other
09:21<Roujin:#openttd>theoretically, you could have a traffic light consist over all tiles on the map (except some water at the border)..
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09:22<Roujin:#openttd>so, i start at my starting tile, and check each 4 directions next to it. if a traffic light is found, it is added to the end of the list
09:23<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>you mean like in a 2x2 road crossing you want to get the top corner
09:23<Roujin:#openttd>yeah, for example
09:24<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>and then you want to sort for TileIndex
09:24<Roujin:#openttd>now i have not only one order on the list (the order in which the tiles got added), but also a second order: this one is sorted by TileIndex
09:25<Roujin:#openttd>no, i automatically sort for TileIndex while building the list..
09:25<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>why do you need to keep the insertion order?
09:25<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>don't do that
09:25<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>sorting in the end is faster
09:26<Roujin:#openttd>well the point is..
09:26<Roujin:#openttd>i have to strike out duplications while building the list
09:26<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>"insertion sort" (like you do with cards dealt to you) is O(n^2), any "sane" sorting algorithm is O(nlogn)
09:26<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>so you want a set
09:27<Roujin:#openttd>yes, basically
09:29<Roujin:#openttd>well my thought was, to strike out duplications, if it is unsorted, i have to go through the whole list for each entry, but if it's sorted, i only have to go up to the TileIndex i want to insert to make sure it's not a duplicate..
09:30<Roujin:#openttd>so, std::set is my best choice you say?
09:30<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>well, std::set will do that for you
09:31<Roujin:#openttd>is it sorted or unsorted?
09:31<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>but i repeat my question from above
09:31<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>why do you need to keep the insertion order?
09:31<Roujin:#openttd>because else the breadth first search algorithm doesn't know when it's finished..?
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09:32<Alberth:#openttd>Roujin: sorted on < of the elements, but since it automatically eliminates duplicates, maybe you don't need sorting?
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09:32<Roujin:#openttd>Alberth: i still need to find the lowest TileIndex in the set
09:33<Alberth:#openttd>Roujin: so have < decide on the tile index, and then take the front (iirc)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>so have two sets, one set of visited nodes, and one set of candidate nodes
09:33<Roujin:#openttd>yes, that's probably the best solution..
09:34<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>you take an element from the candidate set, check if it is already in the visited set
09:34<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>if yes, drop it
09:34<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>if no, put it into the visited set, and put the neighbours in the candidate set
09:34<Alberth:#openttd>couldn't you simply recursively add elements, and stop recursing when the element is already in the set?
09:34<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>Alberth: that won't work
09:35<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>because you can approach the same tiles from several directions
09:35<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>just that you visit a tile twice does not mean you visited all tiles alread
09:35<Alberth:#openttd>it gets added only once
09:36<Alberth:#openttd>true, but you have a recursive call in progress that will do that eventually
09:36<Alberth:#openttd>ie for each tile not in the set, add it, and recurse to all its neighbours
09:36<Alberth:#openttd>(where adding and testing is 1 operation)
09:37<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>but that is a depth-first search ;)
09:38<Alberth:#openttd>Roujin: why do you want a breadth-first algorithm?
09:38<Roujin:#openttd>okay, now the question over that all is, is it actually sane to to this each time something wants to know the state of a traffic light? (that's e.g. every time it should be drawn!)
09:39<Alberth:#openttd>i'd bet no ;)
09:39<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>Roujin: probably rather store the state in the tile, and have an update function
09:39<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>like with the signals
09:40<Roujin:#openttd>erm... it could be depth first as well i guess, if it gets me the lowest tileindex - i just found breadth first to be more intuitive or something
09:41<Roujin:#openttd>Eddi: actually I had the state in the tile first, but then removed it to reduce usage of the tile map...
09:41<Roujin:#openttd>which is actually full for roads
09:43<Roujin:#openttd>now i only use one bit in the map array (is there a traffic light? yes/no) and compute the state by gametick every time it's requested...
09:50<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>you can build an off-map cache
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>just make sure it's multiplayer safe (i.e. deterministic)
09:53<Roujin:#openttd>you can build an off-map cache <-- how do you mean that?
09:54<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>means you initialise a data structure (e.g. pool) and store the information there
09:54<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>and not put it in the map array
09:55<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>like a hash table
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10:05<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>oh, and you might want to read up on "union find" structures, it might help your cause, too
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10:21<Roujin:#openttd>i have to free the set after use right?
10:22<Roujin:#openttd>[name].~set() ?
10:23<+glx:#openttd>if you used new, then use delete
10:24*Belugas:#openttd mumbles
10:25<@Belugas:#openttd>there is a sticker/brand/whatever from my shirt irritating the skin on my shoulder :(
10:25<@Belugas:#openttd>got to reap it out
10:26<@Belugas:#openttd>tag...thanks.. yeah
10:31<Alberth:#openttd>I just added my plans of changing the windowing code to, I'd like some feedback plz
10:31<cjk:#openttd>~set? wtf..
10:32<cjk:#openttd>delete [name];
10:32*cjk:#openttd is in a temporal displacement field
10:32<Roujin:#openttd>yes yes that was bull. i realized after i wrote it
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10:33<Roujin:#openttd>i keep forgetting basic stuff -_-
10:33<cjk:#openttd>also because you would want [name]->~set() iff it went that way :)
10:33<cjk:#openttd>-> not .
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10:42<cjk:#openttd>is there a way to convert desert to green land in subtropical?
10:42<@Belugas:#openttd>in scenario editor yes, in game play no
10:43<cjk:#openttd>lowering the land so that water flows through the desert is only one square :)
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10:43<Pug:#openttd>could anyone help me out with running 2 windows open ttd servers on the same machine?
10:44<Pug:#openttd>first one is up and running, but now i want another one running on the same machine
10:44<Pug:#openttd>but with diff. config file
10:44<@peter1138:#openttd>changed the port?
10:44<Pug:#openttd>yes, i did that already
10:45<@peter1138:#openttd>that's all the help i can give, heh
10:45<Pug:#openttd>hm, well in ur windows machine theres a folder called Open
10:45<Pug:#openttd>OpenTDD in my documents folder
10:45<Pug:#openttd>there is a file ( opentdd.cfg ) where it reads the config
10:45<@Belugas:#openttd>UR -> OUR
10:46<@Belugas:#openttd>[10:44] <Pug> hm, well in ur windows machine theres a folder called Open
10:46<Pug:#openttd>since when is it our windows machine?
10:46<Pug:#openttd>split the cost?
10:46<Pug:#openttd>ur = your
10:47<Pug:#openttd>its straat language
10:47<Pug:#openttd>ive been in ny for 4 years
10:47<@Belugas:#openttd>see? without proper english, it's leading to confusion
10:47<@peter1138:#openttd>this is not 'ny'
10:47<@Belugas:#openttd>straat even
10:47<@peter1138:#openttd>anyway? why does my windows machine have anything to do with it?
10:48<Pug:#openttd>well, i was explaining something
10:48<Pug:#openttd>try to read better :-/
10:48<@peter1138:#openttd>try to spell better :-\
10:48<@peter1138:#openttd>so yes, there is a configuration file
10:48<@peter1138:#openttd>copy the configuration file and make it start with that
10:49<@peter1138:#openttd>openttd -c /path/to/config style
10:49<Pug:#openttd>ah, k
10:49<Pug:#openttd>ill try that
10:49<Pug:#openttd>got nothing better to do Belugas?
10:50<@peter1138:#openttd>kellogg's ;)
10:50<@Belugas:#openttd>Pug, guessing your words is not a fun thing to do, i'd say
10:50<@peter1138:#openttd>i'm glad we have roads here instead of streets
10:51<@Belugas:#openttd>i've guessed that straat means street, which implies that you're using the street language and NewYork in an internaltional channel who do not know what is that language
10:51<Pug:#openttd>i would?
10:52<Pug:#openttd>almost everyone one knows whats k and ur
10:52<Pug:#openttd>k is shortcut to ok
10:52<Pug:#openttd>and if i say, aah k ill try that
10:52<Roest:#openttd>alberth !!!
10:52<Pug:#openttd>you must know that i meant ok
10:52<@peter1138:#openttd>k is fine by me
10:52<@Belugas:#openttd>no, i must not
10:52<@peter1138:#openttd>'ur' can bugger off though
10:52<Roest:#openttd>we're one step closer
10:53<Pug:#openttd>hm, ive seen many people using the shortcut ur
10:53<@peter1138:#openttd>lots of people are fucking idiots too
10:53<Pug:#openttd>so, what you are saying is that im an idiot?
10:54*Roest:#openttd sits back and watches where this is leading to
10:55<@Belugas:#openttd>Pug, not at all. just that you are using something under the assumption it is used and understood everywhere
10:55<@Belugas:#openttd>which is far from been the case
10:55*Rubidium:#openttd 'ld like a ottdbbq ;)
10:56<@peter1138:#openttd>nah, not barbecue weather yet
10:56<Pug:#openttd>where are you from then peter1138
10:56<Pug:#openttd>here in hollands it will be sunny next week
10:56<Rubidium:#openttd>that's freezing
10:56<Pug:#openttd>not for the netherlands
10:57<Pug:#openttd>max. temprature here is around 30 ~ 32°
10:57<@peter1138:#openttd>should be around 25 for a barbecue :)
10:57<Roest:#openttd>i'm getting impatient, when is this global warming thing gonna reach me
10:57<@peter1138:#openttd>any warmer and it's time to stay indoors with the airconditioning on
10:57<Celestar:#openttd>I just got a server offer for 700 bucks per server
10:58<Celestar:#openttd>what kind of crappy hardware is that supposed to be?
10:58<Pug:#openttd>well where never satisfied, if its winter its to cold, when its summer its to hot
10:58<Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: per week?
10:58<Pug:#openttd>Celestar, i rented a few dedicated servers in germany
10:58<Pug:#openttd>bandwich etc. is cheap there to
10:58<Pug:#openttd>and great hardware
10:59<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: Pug: not per week. for the whole server.
10:59<@peter1138:#openttd>Roest: gulf stream gets upset and gives us cooler weather (or something)
10:59<@peter1138:#openttd>some other servers can be cheap but still good
10:59<Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: still 70 times more expensive than my current server ;)
10:59<Celestar:#openttd>lol 12 months send-in warranty
10:59<@Belugas:#openttd>that's our fault! gulf stream is getting all our cold water from snow melting :D
11:00<Pug:#openttd>i got this one
11:00<Pug:#openttd>including 25 TB bandwich
11:00<Celestar:#openttd>nice server
11:00<Roest:#openttd>anyway i saw yesterday 2GB RAM is down to 49 euro, guess i'm going 4GB soon
11:01<Pug:#openttd>Roest i think you are from the netherlands
11:01<Pug:#openttd>you can order a ram kitt on the internet ( ) 4GB Kingston for 75 euro
11:01<Pug:#openttd>4 x 1 GB
11:01<@peter1138:#openttd>2 GB sticks are expensive :o
11:02<@peter1138:#openttd>or were
11:02<cjk:#openttd>I want a KITT too!!
11:02<Pug:#openttd>special action becouse norrod exists for 10 year
11:02<Roest:#openttd>netherlands, that's where the flowertrucks and mobile homes blocking the left lanes on our highways come from
11:02<@peter1138:#openttd>hmm, not that bad any more
11:02<Pug:#openttd>so your from belgium
11:02<@peter1138:#openttd>£60 for 4GB
11:03<@peter1138:#openttd>hmm, £50 actually
11:03<Pug:#openttd>bleh, 60 pounds is like 100 euro
11:03<@peter1138:#openttd>i have no idea
11:03<Pug:#openttd>im renting a server at 27.50 pound a month ( gta server ) thats 36 euro
11:03<@peter1138:#openttd>shipping everything to this remote country is obviously expensive
11:04<@peter1138:#openttd>1GB is £10, heh
11:04<cjk:#openttd>60 pounds is like 27 kg
11:05*Roest:#openttd throws metric system for dummies at cjk
11:06<cjk:#openttd>see what problems the old imperial system has
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11:06<Neo:#openttd>i have problems with creating a server
11:07<Neo:#openttd>do i have to open any ports on my router, and if what ports do i have to open
11:07<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd><cjk> I want a KITT too!! <- they made a Knight Industries Three Thousand
11:08<@Belugas:#openttd>@openttd ports
11:08<@DorpsGek:#openttd>Belugas: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
11:08<@Belugas:#openttd>there you go Neo
11:09<Pug:#openttd> :)
11:09<Pug:#openttd>usefull if you dont know how to
11:09<Pug:#openttd>link thats alive lol
11:09<@Belugas:#openttd>Pug, server not found :)
11:10<Pug:#openttd>i noticed :D
11:10<Pug:#openttd>almost every router config can be found here
11:10<cjk:#openttd>is a multiplayer game paused as long as a client tries to join?
11:10<Pug:#openttd>and for a few dollar you can download a program that will auto update your router with the new port settings
11:10<cjk:#openttd>just in case downloading the map takes "too long" to download
11:11<Pug:#openttd>as far as i know cjk, yes
11:11<cjk:#openttd>meh that would mean you can DoS an openttd server just by joining a million times
11:11<Pug:#openttd>tell me a server you cant ddos
11:12<Pug:#openttd>but, i dont think people will do that, or are smart enough to understand how to
11:12<Pug:#openttd>ive never seen it happen
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11:14<Alberth:#openttd>thgergo: In "cantilever11w.grf" there is a spelling error "Cantilever Bidge Renewal", the 'r' in Bidge seems to be missing
11:14<Roest:#openttd>yea seems, now how can we verify it
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11:14<Alberth:#openttd>you want a screen shot?
11:15<Ammler:#openttd>Alberth: that grf will be obsolete with TBR
11:15<Roest:#openttd>but then, maybe it's intentional
11:15<Ammler:#openttd>(Total Bridge Renewal)
11:15<@peter1138:#openttd>cjk: it can be turned off, but then you get problems connecting
11:15<Ammler:#openttd>already a alpha release available
11:15<Neo:#openttd>pug, I've forwarded these ports but if some add my server, ottd tells him that my server is offline
11:15<Roest:#openttd>which will be obsolete with STBRE
11:16<Pug:#openttd>are you behind a router or firewall?
11:16<Pug:#openttd>and what modem are you using
11:16<Alberth:#openttd>Ammler: ok, I'll do some testing then :)
11:16<Rubidium:#openttd>Neo: is the server shown on ?
11:16<Pug:#openttd>disable firewall, or allow your ottd connection
11:16<Pug:#openttd>and be sure your machine has access to you outgoing IP
11:19<Neo:#openttd>it is not shown at
11:19<Rubidium:#openttd>Neo: then there's something wrong with your (local) network configurations
11:19<Rubidium:#openttd>(firewalls, routers and such)
11:21<Rubidium:#openttd>as long as a server doesn't show up within a minute after starting on, then there's a local issue with the network configuration
11:21<Neo:#openttd>but what is wrong, ports are open, ottd is allowed to communicate with the internet and to act as a server
11:23<Neo:#openttd>do you have any idears
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11:23<Rubidium:#openttd>sadly enough I don't have a clue what could be specifically wrong
11:24<Neo:#openttd>ok thanks anyway
11:28<@peter1138:#openttd>lost in translation
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11:33<Roest:#openttd>anyone able to compile this or did he screw up the patch?
11:36<@peter1138:#openttd>he hasn't changed source.list
11:38-!-[1]Roujin [] has joined #openttd
11:38<@peter1138:#openttd>and then it doesn't compile
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11:40<Roest:#openttd>guess it's back to my work related stuff then
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11:44<@Belugas:#openttd>lunch time is getting closer :D
11:44<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>wah, i can't do _anything_ today...
11:45<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>it should be forbidden to work on fridays, when thursday is a holiday
11:45<@peter1138:#openttd>everything after the comma is unnecessary
11:46<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>"wah" :p
11:46<@Belugas:#openttd>[11:44] <Eddi|zuHause3> it should be forbidden to work
11:46<@Belugas:#openttd>that's enough for me :)
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12:05<@peter1138:#openttd>DO YOU REALISE
12:05-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
12:05<@peter1138:#openttd>THIS WORLD
12:05<@Belugas:#openttd>IS TOTALLY FUGAZY
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12:40<Sacro:#openttd> <- check out the right column
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12:54<Eddi|zuHause3:#openttd>he's kind of late on the 1st april thing...
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13:00<Roest:#openttd>eddi that's no 1st april thing
13:01-!-echinos [brian@] has joined #openttd
13:01<echinos:#openttd>Great game, love it!
13:02<echinos:#openttd>but I suck at it so far?
13:02<echinos:#openttd>that's allI can come upwith
13:03<echinos:#openttd>the game ismoving too fast for me at the moment...need to learn to play more efficiently
13:04<@Belugas:#openttd>you know waht they say: practive makes perfect
13:06<echinos:#openttd>the first few times I played I was running out of money, before I discovered that hauling distance makes more cash
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13:20-!-mynetdude|Away is now known as mynetdude
13:28<nicfer:#openttd>how can I make a town owned road one way?
13:29<+glx:#openttd>there's a switch to enable it IIRC
13:29<nicfer:#openttd>I can't destroy it because its 'locked'
13:29<nicfer:#openttd>I am on a MP server
13:29<+glx:#openttd>ask the owner
13:30-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
13:32<nicfer:#openttd>he isn't on the server
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13:46<echinos:#openttd>I imagine some of you in here have built some pretty hefty networks
13:47<echinos:#openttd>do you use build while paused, or turn off AI players so theydon't get in the way?
13:52<SpComb:#openttd>or disabled AI players completely
13:53<@peter1138:#openttd>sandbox, yes
13:53<@peter1138:#openttd>or MP
13:54<@peter1138:#openttd>with like-minded competitors
13:54*SpComb:#openttd only ever plays "sandbox" or co-op
13:55*yorick:#openttd agrees with SpComb
13:55<yorick:#openttd>I turn AI players off, play NoAI, or use the trolly ai to see some better roads than the original AI makes
13:56<yorick:#openttd>and if I play with AIs, I usually switch to them using the player-switch cheat to make them less stupid, or to build some tracks so they don't go bankrupt, which they usually remove
13:59<mynetdude:#openttd>whats "sandbox"?
13:59<mynetdude:#openttd>I mean I know its a testing/playground
13:59<mynetdude:#openttd>yeah I like to play co-op :)
14:00<mynetdude:#openttd>I had a chance to read about PBS... I liked the way PBS works and at the same time NPF wished we could have both
14:00<mynetdude:#openttd>at the same time...
14:01<yorick:#openttd>"sandbox" is just playing without ai, and maybe even cheating yourself some money, so you can just build nice networks, with build-while-pause, engines won't be gone very soon
14:01<yorick:#openttd>and you can't really crash any trains while paused :p
14:04<echinos:#openttd>i've done that a few times
14:04<echinos:#openttd>but usually becuase I told a train to ignore a signal while I was trying to unclog a gridlock
14:04<echinos:#openttd>crashed trains, I mean
14:06<yorick:#openttd>with YAPP, you have some better chances on crashing trains, like when removing a piece of track, so trains choose another path, with other trains on it, or trains reversing on tracks, causing them to drive thru the PBS signall from the back, and crash on the train that's waiting there
14:06<echinos:#openttd>normally trains won't go backwards thru a normal one-way signl, correct?
14:07<yorick:#openttd>yes, but YAPP also has pass-from-behind signals, to allow bidirectional tracks
14:10-!-Irssi: You are now talking in #openttd
14:15<Roest>yorick dont talk nonsense
14:15<Roest>trains dont crash
14:16<cjk>trains can crash into each other though
14:17<@Belugas>they can? urghh... so... realistic :(
14:17<yorick>Roest, shut up, you'll ruin my theories!
14:17<Roest>belugas we need a new catastrophy, sheep in tunnels
14:18<yorick>yes, we also need collapsing tunnels
14:18<@Belugas>i've got one in preparation that willpiss off a lot of people ;D
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14:18<echinos>What about derailments?
14:18<cjk>how about bombers inside trains
14:18<Roest>btw anyone here good with opengl?
14:18<Roest>not you cjk
14:18<cjk>anyone good here with asking metaquestions?
14:19<cjk>Roest: oh well, me somewhat yes
14:19*echinos points
14:19<Ammler>someone here?
14:19<cjk>Roest: as long as it's not wx :)
14:19<yorick>and we need derailments, trains ignoring signals, bomb terrorist attacks on aircraft & airports, destroyed oil pipelines, floods, ...
14:19<Roest>got myself a little blending problem here
14:19<cjk>yorick: oil pipelines are missing though
14:19<echinos>There was a small derailment on the real railroad near my house recently
14:19<echinos>nothing serious tho
14:19<cjk>Roest: camera too far into the object?
14:20<yorick>yes, thats why we need oil pipelines first
14:20<cjk>so what do I actually see
14:20<cjk>yorick: awesome. that would alleviate the railroad cost
14:20<echinos>They put some grain cars on a little-used siding and they left the track
14:20<Roest>a 3d texture mapped to 3 quads
14:20<Roest>it's a mri brain scan if it isnt obvious
14:20<Vikthor>yorick: You forgot Greenpeace and co. trying to ban to noisy or too poluting traffic :D
14:21<Eddi|zuHause3><Roest> eddi that's no 1st april thing <- i know the context, but the kind of entry does match some of the 1st april stuff going around
14:21*cjk tries to remember what a quad was
14:21<echinos>Roest: are you making a DICOM viewer!?
14:21<yorick>some 4-weeled bicycle, cjk?
14:21<Roest>echinos yea kinda
14:22<echinos>Roest: I'm a PACS admin ;)
14:22<cjk>yorick: just wait until you see GL_QUAD_STRIP
14:23<Roest>it wont be a big project, that's just the basis for my thesis
14:23<cjk>Roest: somehow it looks normal for a quad
14:24<cjk>what's actually wrong?
14:24<Roest>well the area around the brain has an alpha of zero so it should be look through which works correct for the last drawn quad
14:25<echinos>I like the 3-plane cutaway view
14:25<cjk>the main image does not look like a brain at all
14:25<cjk>more like some pixel accumulation
14:26<HMage>does anyone know a music player for X that supports AAC+ radio streaming?
14:26<cjk>HMage: gmplayer :p
14:26<HMage>gmplayer? *looks at debiab reps*
14:27<cjk>ok I never said it was pretty...
14:28<Roest>i need to kill a person using the forums
14:28*yorick ?
14:29<echinos>tall order
14:29-!-mikl [] has quit [Quit: mikl]
14:29<Fingon>try #assassins
14:29<Roest>damn i'm the only one in #assassin, guess they hide pretty good
14:30*yorick just read and now reads this, was in the illusion this was just another quote :(
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14:31<Roest>belugas give me permission to be insulting and condescending please
14:31<yorick>can't orudge do that?
14:31<mikl>general permission?
14:31<cjk>Roest: what if you draw each quad on its own?
14:31<@Belugas>You have my blessing, my son
14:31<Roest>cjk elaborate?
14:32<cjk>since I dunno what the result should be looking like, I have too few suggestions
14:33<Eddi|zuHause3>HMage: i have no real idea what is special about an "AAC+ Radio Stream", but Amarok has support for radio streams
14:33<Eddi|zuHause3>might depend on some KDE libs
14:34<echinos>wow... seems that airplanes can make a lotof cash
14:34<echinos>I have never bothered with them yet
14:35<Eddi|zuHause3>planes are boring
14:35<Roest>palnes are too cheap for the amount of cash they generate
14:36<echinos>well, I would use the cash to build better train networks ;)
14:36<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: do you know, is amarok available for windows already?
14:36<Eddi|zuHause3>hm, they did a test release of Amarok 2, i don't know how useable that is yet
14:37<Roest>cjk i pm'ed you
14:38<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: just googled also a little
14:39<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not like i am particularly interested in windows :p
14:40<Ammler>indeed, but I gave up to tell others using an other OS
14:44<cjk>Roest: i pm'ed back
14:44<@Belugas>Roest, you failed miserably at being insulting nor condescending!
14:44<@Belugas>right has been therefor revocated
14:44<@Belugas>or whatever
14:44<@Belugas>the correct word :)
14:45<Roest>belugas i know :( there's too much politeness in me
14:46<@Belugas>after a while, it will pass :D
14:46<Roest>i really want to though, he annoys for quite a while now
14:48<cjk>I've created some scenario, but playing it does not start the computer AI. Ideas?
14:48<cjk>hmph, ai count is 0 :-/
14:49<@Belugas>maybe it was specified when you made the scenarios?
14:49<@Belugas>remember, settings are saved in scenarios too
14:49<cjk>well in that case..
14:50<cjk>well now one AI appeared after I changed the setting in Difficulty options
14:50<cjk>so far so good (without recreating the scenario)
14:50<echinos>I think I'll spectate some MP games to get some tips :)
14:51<cjk>well, mp games may also do it wrong :>
14:51<cjk>hey just tell me on which one you watch, maybe we can exchange
14:52<echinos>I picked a random one just now...
14:52<cjk>and its name was ... :>
14:52<cjk>usually you pick those with ... players in it
14:52<echinos>don't remember, is there a way to tell once you're in it?
14:53<yorick>not that I know of
14:53<cjk> /info or some kind in the ottd console?
14:54<yorick>look at the client list, one of the things has a label "server", whats its name?
14:54-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
14:55<Eddi|zuHause3>console: "server_name", "server_ip" maybe
14:55<yorick>those are server-only ;)
14:55<cjk>as is server_info :(
14:56<yorick>playing with 0.6 or 0.6.1-RC1?
14:56<echinos>command only available on a network server :/
14:56<cjk>I tried 0.6.1, all server were 'red' :p
14:56<cjk>echinos: just tell me the date
14:56<echinos>oh, well, you pick another and let me know
14:56<echinos>this one is not too interesting
14:56<Eddi|zuHause3>compatible server versions should be at the top of the list
14:57*Roest wants to spectate on some ttdcoop game but those guys use soem starnge revisions
14:57<cjk>hard 512x128 from finland maybe..
14:57<echinos>this one is jul 1984
14:57<Eddi|zuHause3>last i heard they were using some patched versions with YAPP and tracksharing
14:57<yorick>Eddi, that is .dev ;)
14:57<Roest>using linux
14:58<cjk>what sucks is that it seems like no one is >2050
14:59<cjk>and there's tons of servers which don't have appropriate upload speeds
14:59<echinos>cjk: you find a server you like?
15:00<cjk>i'm on that finland thing currently
15:00<cjk>calls itself "Hard 512x128"
15:00<Sacro>finland finland finland...
15:00<cjk>horrible ping tho :p
15:01-!-Roest [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:01<cjk>i should run an own one, just for other's fun :p
15:02<echinos>cjk: ok, I'm coming in
15:02<mynetdude>yeah I'd probably like to run a server as well... but I can't seem to get openttd to be seen by anybody
15:02<cjk>"Player" haha
15:02<yorick>have server_advertise on, mynetdude?
15:03<echinos>cjk: yep, that's me
15:03<mynetdude>how do I check?
15:03<echinos>cjk: that's a pretty crowded map
15:03<mynetdude>yorick, how do I check?
15:04<cjk>echinos: nah... just too much water
15:04<yorick>console: "patch server_advertise"
15:04<cjk>echinos: apparently it's a crafted scenario
15:04<echinos>does bussing passnegers to your train stations helpa lot with profit?
15:04<mynetdude>yorick, a friend of mine has ottd 060 and he didn't have to go into console to make his server advertise
15:04<yorick>with transfer, as long as they aren't waiting there too long
15:05<cjk>i'd just nuke the town and put a rail station in it :>
15:05<yorick>who's that friend?
15:05<mynetdude>yorick, do I have to be in a game to load console?
15:05<yorick>is that server currently running?
15:05<mynetdude>yorick, some cool dude I've known for 5 years lives in Germany :)
15:05<Eddi|zuHause3>echinos: with passenger destinations, that is pretty much the only way that would work ;)
15:05<mynetdude>no not yet, I even tried port forwarding, and could not get my server to be shown
15:06<mynetdude>yorick, how do I bring up console?
15:06<yorick>try to run it, I'll see if its reachable
15:06<mynetdude>server is running now
15:06<echinos>Eddi|zuHause3: yeah, I would think so, but I was thinking without it
15:06<mynetdude>server name is "mynetdude's server"
15:06<echinos>cjk: whoa look at pruningwell ridge valley
15:06<mynetdude>default port I suppose
15:06<echinos>busses galre
15:06<Eddi|zuHause3>echinos: it may help, but passengers waiting at the station would totally kill your profit
15:06<cjk>echinos: I know, having a rail to the oil rig is a trick
15:06<mynetdude>I didn't know you can change the port number
15:07<cjk>argh disconnected
15:07<yorick>same pc as you run the irc-client on?
15:07<mynetdude>but I have 3 computers on the network
15:07<yorick>can't reach it
15:07<echinos>me too
15:07<yorick>then you should port-forward ;)
15:07<yorick>port 3979, tcp and udp
15:07<echinos>cjk: maybe they punted us spectators ;)
15:07<mynetdude>I have it port forwarded
15:07<cjk>mynetdude: can't find it.
15:07<mynetdude>let me check again
15:07<@DorpsGek>yorick: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
15:07<echinos>mynetdude: that might be the problem... port forwarding
15:07<Eddi|zuHause3>mynetdude: make sure you really forward both protocols
15:08<echinos>mynetdude: you wanna give me your IP, I'll try to telnet to the port
15:08<cjk>say, does openttd use geoip or how does it find the flag for a server?
15:08<mynetdude>echinos I do have it port forwarded
15:08<yorick>cjk, you have to set it
15:08<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause3 yes I have the router set to forward TCP/UDP
15:08<echinos>mynetdude: yeah, but maybe not correctly, like with what Eddi|zuHause3 said about the other port
15:08<yorick>no, you haven't
15:09<yorick>I can't reach it
15:09<cjk>telnet: connect to address Connection refused
15:09<echinos>me too
15:09*mynetdude sighs... the router only lets me pick tcp, udp or both and I have it set for both
15:09<mynetdude>fine I got a better idea...
15:09<cjk>add "only tcp" and "only udp"
15:09<yorick>openttd: connect to server connection timed out
15:09<echinos>mynetdude: do you have 3978 forwarded too?
15:10<mynetdude>ah I don't have 3978 just 3979
15:10<yorick>echinos, its only needed if you're running a master server ;)
15:10<echinos>but we still can't get to 3979 anyway, so that's another problem
15:10<mynetdude>instead of "both" I created two different rules one for tcp and one for udp
15:10<yorick>and inbound
15:10<cjk>get an iptables router man :p
15:10<mynetdude>maybe isp is blocking?
15:10<yorick>mynetdude, have a double-router?
15:11<yorick>modem that acts as a router?
15:11<echinos>mynetdude: see if you can telnet to that port on your ownmachine first
15:11<mynetdude>actually I can setup iptables I just don't know how
15:11<mynetdude>k how do I do that?
15:12<mynetdude>ok I did 3978 and 3979 for tcp and udp separately
15:12<cjk>hm if you have iptables, what sort of router _do_ you have, to begin with?
15:12<mynetdude>Linksys WRT54GS
15:12<+glx><cjk> say, does openttd use geoip or how does it find the flag for a server? <-- the flag is the server language (set by the owner)
15:13<mynetdude>how do I use telnet to connect to my server?
15:13<ln>a flag for a language...
15:13<mynetdude>connect to my IP:port number?
15:13<yorick>mynetdude, you can't
15:13<ln>yes, how convinient it would be if each language had a flag-style symbol.
15:13<cjk>mynetdude: good pick
15:13<yorick>ln, it does, no?
15:13<mynetdude>yorick then why were they saying use telnet to connect to my port?
15:14<yorick>*I wasn't*
15:14<cjk>mynetdude: dd, open, or x-wrt?
15:14<echinos>mynetdude: open a command prompt/terminal, and type "telnet localhost 3979" when your openttd server is running
15:14<mynetdude>yorick I know you weren't
15:14<yorick>echinos, did you ever try?
15:14<echinos>telnet? yeah
15:14<ln>yorick: what flag should be used for english, french, northern sami, esperanto?
15:14<echinos>timed out
15:14<mynetdude>cjk, I looked into openwrt but the only thing that will fit on my router is a miniwrt
15:14<yorick>ln, find out, you can
15:15<yorick>esperanto got added to trunk ;)
15:15<cjk>mynetdude: eww
15:15<yorick>and english and french already have a flag
15:15<echinos>nmap doesn't show any open ports
15:16<ln>yorick: i mean, what is the politically neutral flag for such languages?
15:16<mynetdude>cjk my onboard firmware RAM is only 4MB which isn't big enough for a full featured openwrt
15:16<+glx>you may need to restart the router after opening the ports
15:16<mynetdude>echinos telnet not doing anything
15:16<cjk>4 is massive
15:16<mynetdude>just a blank screen
15:16<cjk>or was it 8
15:16<echinos>mynetdude: ok, well that's the first problem
15:16<mynetdude>cjk, 8 is the minimum they say 16 is better
15:16<cjk>hm k
15:16<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: who added the requirement of "politically neutral"?
15:16<+glx>mynetdude: check the server, it should notice the telnet connection
15:16<ln>Eddi|zuHause3: i did.
15:16<echinos>mynetdude: maybe a firewall onyour PC, or selinux or something
15:17<Eddi|zuHause3>sure you did :p
15:17<echinos>cjk: did you get on another server?
15:17<mynetdude>glx nothing from the server
15:17<cjk>echinos: no, i'm going to run my own now
15:17<yorick>try to connect to your server using another client
15:17<mynetdude>ahh I do have the firewall but I disabled that last time
15:17<ln>Eddi|zuHause3: would it be ok to use the flag of Austria for the german language?
15:17<echinos>cjk: sweet
15:17<cjk>just need to figure out how to write a .cfg
15:18<mynetdude>ok firewall disabled, nothing happens
15:18<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: or the bavarian flag? or the prussian flag?
15:18<+glx>ln: they don't speak the same language :)
15:19<mynetdude>I don't understand why 3979 doesn't work
15:19<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: just add a flag for each of the ~200 countries that once made up the german speaking area
15:19<mynetdude>ok I got something interesting
15:19<ln>that would be good
15:20*yorick thanks roest, the newgrf dragdrop is working :)
15:20<mynetdude>echinos when I try to telnet localhost 3979 I get a blank screen, when I try 3978 it gives me "connecting to localhost, could not open connection to the host on port 3978 connect failed"
15:20<ln>hmmmm, is Liechtenstein by any chance one of those ~200 countries, one that didn't happen to merge with others?
15:20<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: and while at it, decide if luxemburgian is an individual language [as the luxemburgians think] or a german dialect [as the EU thinks]
15:20<echinos>mynetdude: the blank screen means you're connected to that port
15:20<mynetdude>so something is wrong with 3979
15:20<+glx>mynetdude: 3978 is an outbound port
15:20<+glx>used to connect to master server
15:20-!-valhalla1w [] has joined #openttd
15:21<mynetdude>ah ok so I have a blank screen and I am connected
15:21<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: i am not particularly familiar with the history of liechtenstein
15:21<yorick>is ok
15:21<mynetdude>so I don't see anything...
15:21<echinos>right, so your firewall isn't forwarding properly
15:21<yorick>now, try executing openttd again
15:21<mynetdude>my firewall is off
15:21<Ammler>Belugas: what was you looking for?
15:21<yorick>and connect to your server
15:21<mynetdude>well I can turn port forwarding off and go DMZ
15:22<yorick>and catch a virus if on windows
15:22<mynetdude>lol... well for the test I'd go dmz
15:22<yorick>IS NOT HERE
15:22<cjk>oh noes
15:23<cjk>I think I found some sort of bug
15:23<cjk>I can't connect to my own server -.-
15:23<yorick>I can
15:23<cjk>it's kinda obvious
15:23<mynetdude>cjk I don't think you're supposed to be able to
15:23<echinos>maybe your firewall isn't forwarding properly
15:23<cjk>openttd 24434 jengelh 9u IPv4 29348364 TCP (LISTEN)
15:23<yorick>but I can?
15:23<cjk>who the fuck binds to
15:23<mynetdude>my firewall isn't even on
15:23*cjk goes fixing source code
15:24<echinos>mynetdude: That was for cjk (kidding)
15:24<Ammler>[21:13] <MemberZone> Belugas has joined the game
15:24<mynetdude>well I am dmz'd wide open, I still can't see anything on telnet except a blank screen
15:24<Ammler>wasn't you? :-)
15:24<@Belugas>Ammler: just... passing by... curiosity
15:24<cjk>echinos: since I don't have a router, there's nothing to forward. it's a dedicated box.
15:25<cjk>fun fun
15:25<cjk>the default openttd.cfg contains bind_ip =
15:25<cjk>now who came up with that
15:25<mynetdude>it did something different now
15:26<@Belugas>Ammler: i went to check ('cuase poor memory) about where is the advertise switch, found it on the Add Server Gui, went back and checked what are the games online
15:26<mynetdude>hey... my blank screen is no longer blank
15:26<mynetdude>it goes back to command prompt
15:26<@Belugas>Ammler saw one with my revision, entered
15:26<@Belugas>that's it :)
15:26<mynetdude>echinos is that better? To go back to command prompt?
15:27<Ammler>sad, then it was just accident :-)
15:27<echinos>mynetdude: I'm not sure, it might be connecting and then immediately disconnecting you.. see if openttd is noticing you
15:27<yorick>mynetdude, you're not supposed to see anything on that telnet window
15:27-!-valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:27<cjk>let's see if it worked now
15:27<mynetdude>echinos no notice at all
15:27<mynetdude>yorick ok, but before it was just a blank screen, now it returns to prompt
15:28<cjk>It lives!
15:28<yorick>trying to type anything?
15:28<yorick>no, cjk, it timeouts or disconnects!
15:28<cjk>yorick: yours perhaps
15:28<yorick>yes, mine
15:29<mynetdude>hmm there's a difference between being dmz'd and not cuz its affecting the way my telnet is working
15:29<@Belugas>Ammler, i was waiting for my compliation to finish... i had a bit of a free time...
15:29<mynetdude>blah nevermind
15:29<mynetdude>I hate my stupid router
15:29<mynetdude>what are all the ports ottd uses?
15:29<yorick>3979 inbound
15:29<yorick>3978 outbound
15:30<mynetdude>and 3978 out thats it?
15:30<yorick>unless you change it
15:30<mynetdude>haven't changed it, but I guess I should turn on the patch advertise
15:30<mynetdude>how do I open console and whats the exact command?
15:31<+glx>yorick: you can't change 3978 as it's the master server port
15:31<yorick>I know
15:31<yorick>mynetdude, try pressing ` multiple times
15:31<yorick>and "server_advertise on" makes it set to on
15:31<mynetdude>echinos hey it did notice me
15:32<mynetdude>echinos and several others
15:33<mynetdude>yorick, echinos yes ottd is seeing my connection I didn't know you could only see it in console
15:33<Ammler>Belugas: did you see the transrapid tracks?
15:33<mynetdude>but its saying it takes longer than 296 ticks so it drops the connection
15:34<yorick>see, timeout, cjk }|
15:34<echinos>mynetdude: ok, so now it's time to figure out the router issue
15:34<mynetdude>yorick is it supposed to time out?
15:34<echinos>can you telnet from another machine inside your network?
15:34<yorick>when opening telnet, it is
15:35<yorick>without normal client, its not
15:35<mynetdude>echinos right now I disabled port forwarding, firewall is down dmz is off
15:35<+glx>unless you start talking to it with the right protocol
15:35<mynetdude>yorick I wonder if I could run another instance of ottd and try to connect to it? :P
15:35<yorick>yes, you could
15:35<yorick>I'm trying to explain you to do that all the time
15:35<mynetdude>that'd probably be a good idea
15:35<+glx>I often have 1 server and 2 clients on the same machine
15:36<echinos>mynetdude: ok, so that means I won't get anything if I try to get to your IP, unless your openttd machine is straight on the internet
15:36<mynetdude>yorick oh, well why didn't you just say "open another ottd and connect to your existing"
15:36<yorick>I did
15:36<mynetdude>yorick ah, didn't see my bad
15:36<mynetdude>echinos I'm going to re-enable pf here in a sec
15:36<cjk>the maximum limit for spectators is 11, what gives?!
15:37<@Belugas>Ammler : i saw tracks all around :D
15:37<echinos>umm... network/cpu load issues? ;)
15:37<yorick>[21:17] <yorick> try to connect to your server using another client
15:37<mynetdude>yorick, ah somehow missed it
15:38<cjk>echinos: it's there now
15:38<cjk>as "FFA-2000"
15:38<mynetdude>echinos ok port forwarding is back up doing 3978-3979 on both TCP/UDP
15:39<mynetdude>hey I see my server!
15:39<mynetdude>does anybody else?
15:39<mynetdude>mynetdude's server
15:40<yorick>I don't
15:40<mynetdude>hmm ok
15:40*mynetdude breaks router next :P
15:40<yorick>which indicates a port-forwarding problem
15:40<mynetdude>maybe I should try port triggering
15:40<yorick>what isp do you have?
15:41<cjk>echinos: ..
15:41<mynetdude>yorick I have a piece of crap outreach internet (local isp) that provides W-DSL
15:41<mynetdude>they like to change my IP on a regular basis even though I pay for dedicated IP service
15:42<mynetdude>Tefad, correct
15:42<mynetdude>its all there is here
15:42<Tefad>must be really local, no rdns : x
15:42<mynetdude>hehe :(
15:42<Tefad>w-dsl is offered here too, but it sucks.
15:42<Tefad>luckily i live in the city
15:42<mynetdude>oh its so local that wikipedia has my IP blacklisted as proxy
15:42<Tefad>just outside city limits
15:42<Tefad>ah nice
15:43<Tefad>i had BPL once (see
15:43<mynetdude>but wikipedia isn't the only site that has deemed my IPs as a proxy IP
15:43<mynetdude>well I don't have proxy setup here on this end though
15:43<@Belugas>[15:34] <+glx> I often have 1 server and 2 clients on the same machine <-- joys of debugging desynchs !
15:43<yorick>mynetdude, your provider could have
15:44<yorick>which means you can't run any kind of server
15:44<yorick>what's your IP?
15:44<Tefad>the generation of BPL i had was sort of like w-dsl but it was short range only. they were using unlicensed frequencies. standard 802.11g gear
15:44<mynetdude>one sec
15:44<yorick>from your side, which got to your router?
15:44<yorick>so not things
15:44<Tefad>BPL now uses gear that actually puts the signal on the power line
15:44<Tefad>(before it was just wifi across pylons, hop by hop)
15:45<mynetdude>yorick you mean my internal IP, thats
15:45<Tefad>i had 15 hops over 7miles.
15:45<yorick>no, the ip which gets assigned to your router
15:45<mynetdude>oh that, one sec
15:46<mynetdude>yorick, this is what I get from the router saying the IP it has from the ISP
15:46<yorick>yeah, you're forced to a proxy
15:46<Tefad>not a public IP
15:46<Tefad>i was forced to use a proxy too
15:46<yorick>for us, your IP is
15:47<Tefad>if you're paying for static IP, stop. you can't actually get one : D
15:47<mynetdude>Tefad maybe I should sue them
15:47<Tefad>mynetdude: if you feel like it. read your service agreement
15:47<mynetdude>yorick what are you saying? if it was a public IP I wouldn't be proxied?
15:47<mynetdude>Tefad there is none
15:47<Tefad>see if there's an arbitration clause, also look for description of service
15:47<mynetdude>Tefad uh where am I going to find that?
15:47<Tefad>ask them to describe the service
15:48<Tefad>what does static IP mean
15:48<echinos>cjk: yeah?
15:48<mynetdude>kinda pointless if I'm going to move in 30 days anyway
15:48<Tefad>if they stutter.. bring in the boys.
15:48*yorick has a static ip, and is proud of it :)
15:48<Tefad>oh, pfff
15:48<Tefad>just move then
15:48<cjk>echinos: heh
15:48<cjk>echinos: check the server list
15:48<mynetdude>so are you saying that because I don't have a public IP it is proxied anyway?
15:49<Tefad>mynetdude: sounds like it
15:49<@Belugas>[15:47] * yorick has a static ip, and is proud of it :) <--- lol... i read "...has a sarcastic IP..."
15:49<Tefad>i don't know of any ISPs that do 1:1 NAT for customers
15:49<Tefad>i've only seen it for dedicated machines
15:49<Tefad>not consumers
15:49<mynetdude>Tefad, well the reason why I paid for "static IP" was so that I could VNC into my computer, I had the basic plan and I couldn't VNC because they blocked literally every inbound port
15:50<Tefad>that's weird, maybe they forward certain ports if they know what ports you want
15:50<mynetdude>Tefad so I told them to upgrade me, they said they did that to "protect" its users
15:50<echinos>cjk: I'm missing it
15:50<cjk>echinos: FFA-2000 ?
15:50<mynetdude>well these guys don't know jack, but I plan to make them fall apart
15:50<yorick>users on a NAT network don't need protection
15:51<cjk>it's definitely there
15:51<mynetdude>they have the shittiest service, I have had more downtime on this ISP in my life
15:51<echinos>cjk: I'm on
15:51<echinos>cjk: no timeto actually play tho
15:51<Tefad>BPL was full of fail too
15:51<cjk>echinos: feel free to create a comp :p
15:51<mynetdude>yorick well that sux... howcome I can run VNC and not ottd?
15:51<echinos>cjk: later tonight, for sure
15:51<Tefad>the local w-dsl here actually gives you THREE public IPs
15:51<yorick>because they only forward the ports you want?
15:51<Tefad>so you don't even need a router
15:52-!-stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
15:52<mynetdude>yorick, maybe but... I told them I wanted to have all the ports available
15:52<echinos>cjk: that map is freakin' HUGE
15:52<yorick>they can't just do that on a proxy, can they?
15:52<cjk>echinos: JUST 1024
15:52<cjk>to give players a bit of space
15:52<mynetdude>Tefad why wouldn't you need a router for 3 IPs?
15:52<echinos>and the towns (metropolises?) are large ;)
15:52<mynetdude>yorick I don't know, I'm not an expert in that
15:52<cjk>echinos: oh?
15:52-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: And I quit!]
15:52<Tefad>mynetdude: you just use a switch
15:53<Tefad>however, each machine is plugged directly into the internet
15:53<Tefad>you need to have GOOD firewalls on each machine.
15:53<echinos>cjk: well, compared to the localgames I've played so far
15:53<cjk>echinos: just 15k for the biggest town
15:53<mynetdude>Tefad not if you use a switch
15:53<Tefad>mynetdude: huh?
15:53<cjk>echinos: well it's 2052, so...
15:53<mynetdude>Tefad you said each machine is plugged directly into the internet, and thats not if they are not using a switch
15:54<echinos>Tefad: you can't plug all 3 machines in with a switch unless you have 3 IPs, or a dhcp server that will give them to you
15:54<mynetdude>Tefad but a w-dsl providing 3 isps would be expensive... you'd need 3 separate lines linking to the same receiver
15:54<mynetdude>echinos oh ok I see what he meant
15:54-!-raimar2 [] has joined #openttd
15:54<mynetdude>echinos 3 machines on 3 switches with dhcp would get those 3 public IPs... neat
15:54<Tefad>are you guys in the clear now?
15:55<cjk>echinos: huge map, huge proffits :)
15:55<Tefad>one modem one switch with at least four ports
15:55<Tefad>"modem" it's just a wifi AP
15:55<Tefad>or client rather
15:55<mynetdude>Tefad but the modem has to be connected to an internet source
15:55<mynetdude>to get internet
15:55<Tefad>i think the technical term is wifi ethernet bridge.
15:55<Tefad>mynetdude: yes the "modem" is connected to the wifi network
15:56<Tefad>the traffic in the air was live internet.
15:56<Tefad>not just a random private AP
15:56<mynetdude>Tefad ah thats a different way of getting w-dsl, you just use a bridge and if you're close enough to the broadcasting station or repeater you can pick up the internet
15:56<Tefad>what was your method?
15:57<Tefad>this w-dsl was advertised as being portable too, they sold battery packs for the "modems" to use them with laptops and the like
15:57<mynetdude>Tefad we use a receiver (kinda like the ones satelites use) except they point it at a tower on a hill/mountain
15:57<Tefad>ah, so yours had a directional antenna, low power
15:57<Tefad>i think the one i tried was medium power, licensed
15:57<mynetdude>except that they run an ethernet cable from the receiver through the wall, plug it into this tiny U shaped box which has two ethernet ports, one powers the receiver the other sends internet to the router/pc
15:58<mynetdude>Tefad ah
15:58<Tefad>ah, u-box was probably a PoE device
15:58<mynetdude>Tefad yeah
15:58<Tefad>did it have a sort of large brick to plug into the wall?
15:58*Tefad nods
15:58<mynetdude>its stupid kinda though
15:58<Tefad>yeah these modems were rather portable
15:59<mynetdude>Tefad almost like clearwire
15:59<Tefad>no experience with them
15:59<Tefad>this was ntelos
15:59<mynetdude>actually clearwire uses almost the same kind of receiver too
15:59<mynetdude>so why would an ISP pick forced proxy? equipment?
16:00<mynetdude>really I'd like to sue them, just to have fun
16:00<mynetdude>the question would be how much would I get out of it (or spend)
16:00<echinos>cjk: you gonna build something?
16:00<mynetdude>I'll brb
16:01<Tefad>mynetdude: probably close to nothing
16:01<Tefad>it depends on what they were marketing it as
16:01<echinos>mynetdude: an ISP would force you to go through their proxy to savethem money on bandwidth costs
16:01<Tefad>and how they described the service
16:01<cjk>echinos: indeed
16:01<Tefad>bandwidth or IP allocation
16:01<echinos>isee 'em
16:01-!-raimar3 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:01<Tefad>if the ISP only has 16 IPs, they can't give every customer an IP
16:02<Tefad>(or hell a /24, still can give every customer an IP if there's more than say 250 customers)
16:03<echinos>cjk: 90 deg turns, bad boy ;)
16:03<cjk>echinos: who cares, it slows down at the station anyway
16:03<cjk>the fast path is when it _leaves_ the station
16:04<Tefad>90deg turns just aren't realistic
16:04-!-pm [] has joined #openttd
16:05<cjk>as if the speed of time was realistic in ttd
16:05<echinos>yeah, that was my initial problem with openttd... time went too fast for me
16:06-!-pm [] has quit []
16:07<mynetdude>Tefad I don't know how many IPs they have, but for business customers they give out IPs
16:07<mynetdude>Tefad I wonder if the static IP means internal static IP rather than a random internal IP either way proxied
16:07<cjk>meh this map has too many cities
16:07<Tefad>mynetdude: this is why i told you to check their description ; )
16:08*glx have a real static IP
16:08<cjk>is there a way to kill my own company from the server?
16:09<mynetdude>Tefad don't matter though I'm moving regardless... but the only way I can get a description is over the phone and even that I can't prove in a court of law anyway
16:10<echinos>cjk: demolish them! ;)
16:11<mynetdude>echinos we need a feature like that, on the company button that says "eradicate my company"
16:11<mynetdude>and you get nothing back for it either
16:11<cjk>echinos: as in?
16:12<mynetdude>cjk well you know, blow up every structure you have
16:12<Eddi|zuHause3>ln: this is a fairly representative map of germany ;)
16:12<echinos>cjk: Iwas kidding, I don't think you can just dynamite a whole city
16:12<mynetdude>echinos in simcity 4 you can
16:13<cjk>mynetdude: hm there ought to be a faster way
16:13<mynetdude>cjk couldn't agree with you more
16:13<mynetdude>cjk just do a new game, thats fastest
16:13<cjk>hm perhaps there's some admin command :p
16:14<mynetdude>btw, for those that do host servers 24/7 how do you guys start a clean map?
16:14<+glx>what do you mean?
16:14<mynetdude>otoh maybe starting a clean map is a bad idea for those who are dedicated and want to play a neverending map
16:15<+glx>there's an autorestart date setting
16:15<mynetdude>glx I mean just what I said... all players leave for the night, new players come back in the morning, but they see the sprawling mess left behind by the last players
16:15<mynetdude>glx oh you mean "game ends: 2051"
16:16<+glx>yes it's configurable
16:16<mynetdude>glx the autorestart setting is a command setting not an option in the patch config
16:16<cjk>mynetdude: you all set it in the .cfg
16:17<mynetdude>can the .cfg be changed while the game is active?
16:17<mynetdude>didn't think so
16:17<cjk>it'd be surprising if the map just grew by 4 blocks :p
16:17<Ammler>mynetdude: just use rcon
16:17<mynetdude>cjk how do you mean?
16:17<cjk>the .cfg contains map size and such
16:17<mynetdude>whats rcon?
16:18<Ammler>rcon <pw> restart_game_year
16:18<mynetdude>cjk but you can set the map size when you first start up the server the biggest I think is 2048x2048
16:18<cjk>I KNOW :>
16:18<+glx>there's reload_cfg to reload a modified .cfg
16:18<mynetdude>I know you know, but whats the difference?
16:18<mynetdude>cool :)
16:19<mynetdude>any chance ottd can make maps bigger than 2048x2048?
16:19<mynetdude>that'd be uber killer
16:19<Ammler>mynetdude: there are already patches, but you would play them alone
16:19<mynetdude>as in, way too big
16:19<@Belugas>why would it by a killer???
16:19<cjk>1024x1024 is like 400 kb already - and that chogs people's bw it seems
16:20<Ammler>1024² is almost 2M
16:20<Ammler>(after playing some years)
16:20<mynetdude>Ammler I was just going to say
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16:27<cjk>echinos: you may rejoin .. but perhaps not as "Player" :)
16:27<cjk>though I guess noone else uses the name then ^_^
16:28<echinos>cjk: I'm leaving work now (I'm in EST), I'll be on later
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16:30<Ammler>how can that happen: (svn revert)
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16:33<Pinchiukas>ok so my train comes to a station near a coal mine, it doesn't even fill up and then leaves, so why is the coal mine telling, that only 53% of the production is transported?
16:34<Noldo>Ammler: the patch was taken the worng way around
16:35<Ammler>Noldo: well, I use < instead of -f
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16:35<Ammler>or -i
16:35<Pinchiukas_>damn isp
16:35<Pinchiukas_>so anybody can give me any advice?
16:35<Eddi|zuHause3>Pinchiukas: that number is taken from the (average) rating of your station
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16:36<Pinchiukas_>Eddi|zuHause3: I don't understand... the mine doesn't give me enough to fill the whole train but says that I don't transport all the cargo
16:36<Eddi|zuHause3>if you have constantly a train loading at the station, you get around 65-70%
16:36<Ammler>53% of the time, nothing takes the cargo from there
16:36<Ammler>47 I meant
16:36<Eddi|zuHause3>if no train is loading, the rating drops
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>you get a bonus on the rating if the train is very new (<2 years)
16:37<Pinchiukas_>so I better have a train always loading?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>or if you have a statue in the town (+10%)
16:37<Eddi|zuHause3>an advertising campaign also temporarily increases the rating
16:38<Ammler>dunno, is it still possible to push the rating with a truck?
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16:39<Ammler>loads and unloads at same station
16:39<Eddi|zuHause3>i don't see what should forbid that
16:40<Eddi|zuHause3>but better is a ship, then the rating drops slower ;)
16:42<cjk>Hm, does it matter if I overplant all Farm fields with rails? Does the production sink that way?
16:44<cjk>read the source?
16:45<@Belugas>it has no effect at all
16:45<@Belugas>just eye candy
16:45<@Belugas>although it could eventually...
16:45<@Belugas>that would be fun isn't?
16:46<@Belugas>step on my fields and i yell!
16:46<@Belugas>imagine the pleasure on MP games ...
16:47<@Belugas>don't like this player who get his stuff from that farm? kill the farm by adding tons of rails around
16:47<@Belugas>cool :D
16:47<Pinchiukas_>so when a train is stopped, I don't have to pay for maintenance?
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16:49<Eddi|zuHause3>Pinchiukas_: only when you manually stop it (e.g. at a depot), not when it is just waiting at the station
16:49<Pinchiukas_>I see
16:49<Pinchiukas_>and when it's waiting for a signal, I also pay for that?
16:50<@Belugas>consider that the loco is stillburning fuel or whatever
16:50<@Belugas>pkyus, you have to pay the employees
16:51<Pinchiukas_>so where am I supposed to find stuff like that out?
16:52<@Belugas>what do you mean?
16:54*Belugas is going home
16:54<@Belugas>have a nice weekend
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17:03<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause3 so let me see if I get this straight, the only time you don't pay for train maintenance is when you manually send the train to depot and it stays inside?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause3>no, you can also click on the bar in the train so it says "stopped" [in red]
17:08<mynetdude>so if you stop a train on the track and it is red, you don't pay maintenenace?
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17:10<+glx>no running costs when it's not running ;)
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17:11<Fingon>maybe it's an idea for the AI to let it detect when a train is not moving, and then the AI can "stop" it.
17:11<mynetdude>nice, I can build me some nifty train yards and let trains sit there rather than having them sit at depots to make it look more realistic
17:11<Fingon>and when the AI sees the train can move again, "start" it again :p
17:11<Fingon>evil AI
17:11<Fingon>(pointless anyway atm since no trains are possible yet, but maybe in the future :)
17:11<mynetdude>Fingon that'd be a way to save the money... but unrealistic imo
17:12<mynetdude>Fingon um... what are you talking about trains make up most of ttd!
17:12<Fingon>sorry, trains are not possible yet in NoAI *
17:12<Fingon>as human it would be a massive waste of time to do that :p
17:12<mynetdude>oh, can't run trains in NoAI :( heh
17:13<mynetdude>Fingon true
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18:08<Ammler>nice, distant-join patch works server independend
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18:42<cjk>mh the rcon does not seem to work
18:43<cjk>(note to self: put everything into quotes)
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19:34<dragonhorseboy>any of you know about re building quarries (from brickyard grf)
19:35<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: use the newest version :-)
19:35<dragonhorseboy>ammler..thats not the thing here
19:36<dragonhorseboy>how do you even get one funded at all? it keep saying site unsuitable even if I point it at a flat high slope face
19:36<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: I guess, it is, the older version is very hard to fund on a new map
19:37<Ammler>which version do you use?
19:37<dragonhorseboy>server says hmm v1.2
19:37<Ammler>use 1.3something
19:38<dragonhorseboy>hey..did I said its even mine? :p
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19:38<Ammler>well, then terraform first for the old quarry
19:39<dragonhorseboy>terraform .. how?
19:41<Ammler>it needs 3tiles up
19:43<dragonhorseboy>hmm no go...created a flat land then made a 5 wide+tall slope :/
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19:45<dragonhorseboy>*wonders if it just have any location restrictions other than the landscape*
19:48<dragonhorseboy>meh nevermind -- silly map is almost expired anyhow (year 2031 too)
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20:12<Victoria>Hi there! OpenTTD is wicked addicting, but my friend and I are having issues in our multiplayer games... Is it possible to play alongside the AI in multiplayer?
20:12<Sacro>hey Victoria, fraid it isn't I don't think
20:13<Victoria>Aw, bummer.
20:13<Sacro>You could always join an online game with others though
20:13<Victoria>We need something easy to beat up on. ;)
20:13<Sacro>There are many online servers, with people of varying levels of playing
20:14<Victoria>I'm a bit unsure of the ettiquete required though, the er, coopetition? folks seem very dedicated to a specific style of play
20:14<Victoria>At least, that's my conclusion from browsing their wiki. :)
20:14<Sacro>well yes, but there are none co-op servers :)
20:14<Sacro>I personally play on peter1138's server
20:14<Victoria>Haha, ok
20:14<Sacro>we fight it out
20:15<Sacro>We each have our own style of building, mine is a sprawling mess
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20:15<Victoria>Nice :D
20:17<Sacro>yeah, just find yourself a server with decent players and a decent admin
20:17<Victoria>Shame about the ai though.. we've been trying to get that working for a week now. *grin*
20:17<Sacro>and join in
20:17<Victoria>We might do so
20:17<Sacro>I think NoAI might work on multiplayer
20:17<Sacro>but I'm not sure
20:17<+glx>NoAI should work in MP
20:17<Sacro>glx: does normal?
20:18<+glx>there's a patch setting to allow newAI in MP
20:18<+glx>but the old AI can't (not network safe)
20:19<+glx>anyway I never tried
20:19<Victoria>The version I have has an option to allow new AI in multiplayer, and it's marked as experimental, but it doesn't seem to have an effect
20:20<Victoria>I found an 18! page thread on NoAI on the forums, should I begin by looking there?
20:20<+glx>it's WIP
20:20<Victoria>Ahh, ok
20:23<Victoria>Thanks for your help anyway folks. :)
20:24<Sacro>you're welcome
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---Logclosed Sat May 03 00:00:10 2008