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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-05-26

---Logopened Mon May 26 00:00:38 2008
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01:58<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13258 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Codechange: add support for using (most) of the old patch names in the console.
02:00<Prof_Frink>Sacro: That's what she said.
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02:45<Eddi|zuHause3>i vote for banning HerzogDeXtEr
02:46<daspork>The motion is carried...
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03:00<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: he doesn't disturb important discussions :-)
03:01<Ammler>good morning people btw.
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03:10<Touqen>Nothing good about it.
03:10<Touqen>It's 3am and I'm beat.
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04:19<valhallasw>O HAI
04:19<Gekz>NO HAI 4 U
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06:29<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13259 /trunk/src/subsidy_gui.cpp: -Fix: Subsidy text could still overflow
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06:41<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13260 /trunk/src/terraform_gui.cpp: -Fix: linked terraform toolbar wasn't marked dirty after moving
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07:37<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13261 /branches/noai/src/road_cmd.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r11221: one of the many 'syncs' between trunk and NoAI went wrong, leaving towns more powerful than they should be (removing roads where they shouldn't)
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07:44<Mwa>._. I just spent ?7,374,983 on a single tunnel
07:46<planetmaker>come again, if you spend 378.000.000
07:46<Gekz>tunnels suck
07:47<Gekz>you cant put signals on them
07:47<Gekz>and you cant see the train!
07:47<murr4y>we need a tunnel signal patch
07:47<planetmaker>^^ code it :)
07:55<Mwa>murr4y, that would make it all so easy though
07:56<Mwa>Yes, I wouldn't have to make the tunnels come up for air and signal breaks if I could signal them
07:57<murr4y>so you're more free to create nice tracks without ugly hacks
07:57<murr4y>and terraforming
07:57<murr4y>+ more realistic :)
07:57<murr4y>not saying we should have it though :p
07:57<Mwa>In any case cutting a tunnel in half quarters the price
07:58<Gekz>which makes no sense
07:58<Mwa>I read a discussion as to why it does
07:58<Mwa>And it does make sense
07:59<murr4y>please explain :)
07:59<Mwa>because of how far you have to transport waste soil
07:59<Mwa>and such
08:00<Mwa>I can't remember the whole thing, but the gist was that the longer the tunnel, the more conveyor belts you need
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08:02<Gekz>Mwa: you could just build the tunnel in two parts
08:02<Gekz>then join them
08:03<Gekz>that would cost less still.
08:03<Gekz>ie, your hypothesis is flawed.
08:03<Mwa>Tunnels generally are done from both ends
08:04<Mwa>But the longer both ends are, the more alignment problems you will run into
08:07<hylje>not so with LAZERS
08:08<planetmaker>Lasers bend bady, if you have curves.
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09:09<k-man>is there some way i can give myself some more money?
09:10<k-man>i went on this grand expansion and ran out of money
09:10<k-man>and not enough money to build my first train
09:10<Prof_Frink>You can cheat
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09:19<@Belugas>hello Roujin
09:19<@Belugas>oh nooooo.... :(
09:20<@Belugas>i forgot my headphones at home
09:20<Gekz>k-man: or, dont expand so stupidly next time
09:20<Gekz>k-man: are you aware you can get a loan.
09:22<k-man>Gekz, yes, but i really did go a bit nuts before i realised i spent all my money
09:22<k-man>thanks Gekz
09:22<k-man>what can one do to make a city grow?
09:22<Gekz>bring food
09:23<@Belugas>carry passengers
09:23<Gekz>passengers do growth?
09:23<@Belugas>and mails
09:23<murr4y>make love
09:23<Gekz>I thought it was only mail and food
09:23<@Belugas>and goods
09:23<@Belugas>and water
09:24<@Belugas>and diamond
09:24<@Belugas>don't believe a word I just said, k-man
09:25<@Belugas>thing is, it depends on the cliamte you are on
09:25<murr4y>k-man: check this out
09:25<Gekz>I just scared the crap out of myself
09:25<Gekz>I whistled by accident
09:32<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13262 /3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp: [Squirrel] -Fix: silent some warnings by clearing local variable before using
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09:34<@Belugas>good murr4y :)
09:37<CIA-3>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13263 /3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqstate.cpp: [Squirrel] -Fix: Squirrel's theory isn't as sound as they hoped..
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09:50<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13264 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: yapf_settings.h was not removed from the project files.
09:51<Splatman>Trying to update a patch to trunk but I can't figure out what the replacment for "if (WP(w,def_d).close) delete w;" is (def_d is nolonger defined)
09:52<Roujin>what patch, what file, what line?
09:53<Roujin>and without that knowledge i suspect that WP is the issue
09:53<Splatman>Build templates
09:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13265 /branches/noai/ (139 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r13185:13264.
09:53<Splatman>In the copy_paste.cpp
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09:53<Frostregen>download the latest
09:53<Frostregen>i think i removed that already
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09:55<Splatman>I was looking at the end of the thread for updates
09:55<Roujin>Frostregen: your patch file is misnamed
09:55<Roujin>or rather the link to it
09:55<Roujin>it says rev 13314 instead of r13214
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09:59<Roujin><CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13265 /branches/noai/ (139 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r13185:13264. <-- That's nice. Now one can play with the noise system against WrightAI ^_^
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10:07<k-man>will there ever be a way if putting signals in a tunnel?
10:07<k-man>and what about tunnels with bends in them?
10:08<hylje>yes, someday
10:08<hylje>some work has been done but it's largely stalled AFAIK
10:08*Sacro watches the video
10:09<@Belugas>k-man, you're asking for a lot, you know that?
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10:10<@peter1138>better than demanding :D
10:10<hylje>peter1138! newEverything!
10:10<@Belugas>yeah to peter1138, boooo to hylje
10:10<k-man>Belugas, maybe - i was just wondering though
10:13<@Belugas>to give you an idea : the map does not have room for that. so you either change the map format (not an easy nor small task) or find a substitute system to indicate signals on underground rails. then, you need to hook in to the signaling system, plus, you have to tell the train controller it should care about signals where it useually didn't care. not to mention the pathfinders too
10:13<@Belugas>not saying it's impossible
10:13<@Belugas>hell of a job
10:14<@Belugas>remember : nothing is magic, nothing is for free
10:14<@Belugas>and... we have not yet talked about the benty part of your inquiry...
10:15<@Belugas>like : how are you going to indicate you need a bent here and a straigh line there?
10:15<hylje>arbitrary bridges/tunnels would not be too far from rollercoaster tycoon
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10:15<@Belugas>define arbitrary,please
10:15<planetmaker>Clarke's 3rd law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
10:16<@Belugas>all is relative
10:16<@Belugas>from the observer
10:16<@Belugas>a papoo will find jet plane magic
10:17<hylje>arbitrary? well, with the tile-based constraints still in place, one could build stuff up and down along with the usual directions
10:17<planetmaker>Damn, you found the weak spot there :)
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10:17<Digitalfox>Just passed my HTML + CSS exam with 19/20 =0
10:18<Digitalfox>Not bad for one single day of study =0
10:18<Touqen>it's html and css...
10:18<Touqen>How hard could it be.
10:18<Touqen>Which question did you get wrong?
10:19<Digitalfox>Touqen don't know yet :p
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10:19<@peter1138>that's why he asked
10:19<@Belugas>congrats Digitalfox
10:19<Digitalfox>Touqen well it may be easy for you but I just had one fucking day of hard study for me, who didn't touch HTML since 2002 and back then we didn't had study CSS..
10:19<@Belugas>now, hope you'll pass visual basic th same way :D
10:21<Digitalfox>Belugas I did study visual basic in 99 or 2000..
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10:21<@Belugas>even longer than HTML-CSS
10:21<Eddi|zuHause3>planetmaker: direct lemma of clarke's law: no technology is sufficiently advanced (yet)
10:22<planetmaker>correction: no human technology to humans we commonly call civilized :)
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10:23<Eddi|zuHause3>"we are the only civilised people on this island"
10:23<planetmaker>as far as we know :). The Drake equation has sufficiently many badly constrained parameters :)
10:24<Eddi|zuHause3>it's a quote from monkey island
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10:50<Roujin>are further code changes to be expected on the (previously patch-)settings ?
10:53<@Belugas>my gutts are telling that it should be the case, very much likely :)
10:54<Roujin>I wonder what Rubidium is planning..
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10:55<Roujin>will it bring some noticable difference, or is it just internal restructuring like the window system rework..
10:56<Roujin>will there be any more commits that *bang* break all patches out there that have a switch or two ;)
10:58<@Belugas>don't we all love those commits :D
11:00<Eddi|zuHause3>i do :p
11:00<Eddi|zuHause3> <- that is fun ;)
11:04<SmatZ>what does it do?
11:05<Eddi|zuHause3>isn't it obvious? it declares a function ":" that spawns two threads that call ":", and then it calls ":"
11:05<SmatZ>now, yes
11:06<SmatZ>I wondered how can smileys cause system to choke/crash
11:06*SmatZ tests
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause3>you better have a virtual machine :p
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11:08<+glx>that doesn't do nothing in msys bash
11:08<+glx>sh-3.1$ :(){ :|:&};:
11:08<+glx>sh: `:': not a valid identifier
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11:10<SmatZ>hmm I should limit number of processes user can spawn :-/
11:11<+glx>hmm seems you tried it
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11:12*SmatZ limited number of processes to 20000
11:14<Eddi|zuHause3>glx: windows is just fucked up :p
11:14<+glx>no that's a good thing ;)
11:14<+glx>for once
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11:18<+glx>I killed my vmware
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11:21<SmatZ>hmm didn't really help
11:21<@peter1138>limit to 1000 maybe :p
11:22<SmatZ>I limited it to 500, still too much
11:22<SmatZ>or maybe /etc/limits is not used
11:23<@peter1138>ulimit -u
11:23<SmatZ>smatz@amd64 ~ $ ulimit -u
11:24<@peter1138>well then :)
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12:02<ecke>one small question... "when" will be possible build signals in tunnels and on bridges?
12:03<Prof_Frink>"when" it's done.
12:03<ecke>i read that it depend on new array
12:03<@peter1138>there's no code for it
12:03<@peter1138>there is not such thing as a new array
12:03<ecke>and what about array in roller coaster tycoon? :))
12:04<@peter1138>RCT is not OpenTTD
12:04<Touqen>Locomotion is RCT
12:05<Roujin>see you guys
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12:08<ecke>ok... and is there any way how to bypass ther problem with not enough signals?
12:09<@Belugas>ecke, you see, right now, with the way our array works, and with the way tunnels and bridges are coded, it requires a hell of a change to bring signals to bridges/tunnels
12:09<@Belugas>not an easy task at all
12:09<@Belugas>not enough signals???
12:09<@Belugas>what's that problem?
12:10<ecke>traffic jams in front of tunnels
12:10<SmatZ>double tunnels
12:10<SmatZ>triple tunnels
12:10<@Belugas>build more tunnles :D
12:10<Touqen>build shorter tunnels.
12:10<SmatZ>don't build tunnels
12:10<Touqen>Through the rockies! Not around them!
12:10<Prof_Frink>Blow up the mountain, build rails
12:11<@Belugas>or you could build shorter tunnels with a service hole, allowing to place a signal, and than another tunnel and so on
12:11<ecke>ok... but what to do when on the hill is town
12:12<ecke>triple tunnels
12:12<@Belugas>your doomed :)
12:12<@Belugas>indeed , more tunnels
12:12<ecke>but it looks like crazy
12:12<Prof_Frink>ecke: Kill the town.
12:12<ecke>not real
12:12<@Belugas>as long as it works, who cares how it looks?
12:12<Prof_Frink>Find its central road tile
12:12<@Belugas>the game is not real anyway,
12:13<@Belugas>and never intended to be
12:13<@Belugas>and never will be
12:13<SmatZ>those people are not real, too
12:13<Prof_Frink>Dynamite and buy the eight squares round it
12:13<@Belugas>REALISM SUCKS!!!
12:13<Prof_Frink>Wait for the town to die
12:13<ecke>but i d like beautiful landscpae devastated world :D
12:13<ecke>not deva...
12:14<ecke>i d like alpine railway with tunnels and bridges... hmmm lovely
12:15<@Belugas>round and round the mountain you go?
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12:16<ecke>have you ever been on coastline of Italy? .... tunnels > brifge > tunnels > bridge
12:16-!-pasky [pasky@2a01:b0:b0::] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:17<ecke>i want this.. but ... without jams
12:17<@Belugas>you might have it one day. Who knows... but not soon, for sure. would take quite a while to do it
12:18<Touqen>Ottd 0.9 perhaps
12:18<Touqen>Which is easily many years away.
12:20<hylje>ottd 1.0
12:20<@Belugas>ottd 0.10
12:22<Prof_Frink>That's when all the NewFeatures! get added.
12:23<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13266 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Use SmallVector in GUIList
12:23<@peter1138>i missed r11380 ;(
12:24<hylje>ha ha
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12:29<SmatZ>@openttd commit 11380
12:29<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by glx :: r11380 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2007-11-04 22:21:46 UTC)
12:29<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: -Revert (r11191, r11196): it worked, but broke cargo loading
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12:30<SmatZ>@openttd commit 1138
12:30<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by matthijs :: r1138 /branch/map (18 files) (2004-12-16 18:04:38 UTC)
12:30<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: - Converted misc_cmd.c
12:30<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: - Rewritten the label system, there is now one piece of code for station
12:30<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: labels, signs, checkpoints and town names. Signs are fully functional,
12:30<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: stations nearly, towns and checkpoints will have to be adapted when they are
12:30<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: (...)
12:30<@Belugas>damned you! that is waht i was about to do !
12:31<Prof_Frink>Ah well, you'll have to get r113800
12:32<SmatZ>@base 16 10 1138
12:32<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 4408
12:32<SmatZ>@openttd commit 4408\
12:32<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Invalid arguments for _commit.
12:32<SmatZ>@openttd commit 4408
12:32<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by miham :: r4408 trunk/lang/polish.txt (2006-04-12 21:11:28 UTC)
12:32<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: [Language update by miham] Quick fixed polish.txt
12:35<@peter1138>1138 was before my time
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12:45<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13267 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h: -Codechange: extend GUIList with a GnomeSort
12:45-!-pasky [pasky@2a01:b0:b0::] has joined #openttd
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12:46<dih>hello skidd13
12:47*dih has not said hi to skidd13 in a long time....
12:47*dih waves
12:47<dih>ah - he's not even online :-S
12:47*Bjarni wonders about waving at dih
12:47<@Bjarni>but I can't afford getting caught doing that :s
12:47<dih>hey hey Bjarni
12:48<@Bjarni> <-- here is the pricelist
12:49<@Bjarni>the first one in the 2nd row is the waving
12:50<@Bjarni>dih: now you made yourself 350 EUR more poor :P
12:50<@Bjarni> <-- you can pay here
12:50*Bjarni hides
12:51<dih>goon - take me to court
12:51<dih>biatch ^^
12:51<@Bjarni>we don't use that here
12:51<dih>talking of 'donating'
12:51<@Bjarni>we just declare what we consider to be right
12:51<dih>can people be marked as 'donors' in the tt-forums and on the server list?
12:51<hylje>organ donor
12:51<@Belugas>In the Court of the Crimson's King
12:52-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
12:52<@Bjarni>why and I Crimson?
12:52<dih>that was a serious question
12:52-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
12:52<@Bjarni>dih: my question were also serious
12:52<@Bjarni>why Crimson?
12:53<@Belugas>another one: are you a 21st Century Schizoid Man?
12:53<Sacro>yes we are
12:53<@Bjarni>and Sacro too
12:53<dih>sacro is a special something anyway
12:54<@Belugas>#Cats Foot Iron Claw
12:54<dih>get a grip bitch
12:54<Sacro>#Cats ?
12:54<@Belugas>#neuro-surgeons scream for more
12:54<@Belugas>#At paranoias poison door
12:54<@Bjarni><Sacro> #Cats ? <-- that one is empty
12:54<@Belugas>#21sf centur schizoid man
12:54<Prof_Frink># My heart is in my hand- Urgh.
12:55<@Bjarni>btw the other day I saw how German acts
12:55<@Bjarni>with their state of the art technology
12:56<dih>again, can donators to openttd be marked as such in tt-forums and in the server list ?
12:56-!-Hassan [] has joined #openttd
12:56<@Bjarni>some tourists parked an autocamper on the top of a hill on a parking lot
12:56<Sacro>dih: best asking one of the devs :p
12:56<@Bjarni>when they left again they pushed it downhill for like 20 meters before it started
12:56<@Bjarni>dih: don't you guys know how to use batteries?
12:56<Hassan>How can I get a newspaper like when it happens in 2050; with all companies on it? Whats the command in multyplayer?
12:57<Hassan>So I can see whos best :)
12:57<@Belugas>#Keep me seaching
12:57<@Belugas>#fora heart of Gold
12:57<@Belugas>#and i]m getting old
12:58<dih>[18:56] <dih> again, can donators to openttd be marked as such in tt-forums and in the server list ?
12:58<planetmaker>dih's fight like don quichote against the wind mills of ignorance :)
12:58*dih has the slight feeling of yet again asking the wrong person....
12:58<Hassan><Hassan> How can I get a newspaper like when it happens in 2050; with all companies on it? Whats the command in multyplayer?
12:58<dih>play until 2050
12:58<@Belugas>Hassan, i don't get your question at all
12:58<planetmaker>Hassan: use the charts to compare companies
12:58<dih>and no - never will you have all companies on it
12:59<dih>only "ze winna"
12:59<Hassan>Well at the end of a single player game
12:59<Hassan>You get at 2050 a chart
12:59<@Belugas>dih, server list has no connection with the forums donator
12:59<Hassan>whit performance rating
12:59<planetmaker>There's no end :)
12:59<Hassan>is such thing avaible in multiplayer?
12:59<dih>Belugas: not donating to the forums, donating to
12:59<Prof_Frink># For if the bomb that drops on you, gets your friends and neighbours too, there'll be nobody left behind to grieve!
13:00<Prof_Frink># And we will all go together when we go
13:00<dih>shush it birdy
13:00<@Belugas>dih: how can a server be linked to a donation?
13:00<dih>how did i come up with that one
13:01<@Belugas>'cause of the beer?
13:01-!-Hassan [] has quit []
13:01<Prof_Frink>dih: The only thing I can think of is to make "Supporter" badges for sigs
13:01<@Belugas>me too
13:01<@Belugas>i see no point on having the server list state that
13:02<dih>i do
13:02<@Belugas>i don't
13:02<@Belugas>apart from self-glory ? ;)
13:02<Prof_Frink>He don't and he has an @
13:03<dih>sort the server list first my version then by donator then by clients :-P
13:03<planetmaker>Hassan: similar overview is always available. Look at the charts. Go for company achievements(?) -> details
13:03<dih>pm: hassan aint there no more
13:03<@Belugas>he's gone, a bit frustrated, i guess
13:03<planetmaker>oh well. Why did I bother? :(
13:03<dih>you were to slow
13:05<dih>say hypothetically, a community donated money for each member and server or something like that :-P
13:05*planetmaker probably suffers from a lack of chemical fuel - also called food.
13:05<dih>drink something
13:05<dih>like beer
13:05<@Bjarni>I don't have any beer
13:05<planetmaker>No, I'll go home. And there I'll have solid state and liquid fuel :)
13:05<Sacro>yes, we have no bananas
13:05<@Belugas>no one offered you Bjarni :)
13:06<dih>how does Bjarni drinking beer help planetmaker?
13:06<planetmaker>though my good belgium and Dutch beer is gone since the weekend :)
13:06<Mchl>they can link their digestive system through dev-grid
13:06<dih>get some good german stuff
13:06<Prof_Frink>Have you no Pride?
13:06<@Bjarni><dih> how does Bjarni drinking beer help planetmaker? <-- maybe you wanted us to be drinking buddies
13:06<dih>check when i last hilighted you
13:07<planetmaker>:)^^ sure. :)
13:07<@Belugas>dih, i really see it as futile and unnecessary, plus, an addictionnal DB should be created for that purpose. and maintained. and people would complain (they always do anyway) when the new status is not grantred fast enough
13:07<dih>then you will find that though just makes abso-f***ing-lutely no sense
13:07<@Belugas>either way, personally, i thing i's not worth it
13:07<@Bjarni>[19:06:01] <dih> how does Bjarni drinking beer help planetmaker?
13:07<dih>and then one before that?
13:08<planetmaker>Prof_Frink: I do. I'm consious enough to also allow others to excel
13:08<@Bjarni>[18:47:51] <dih> hey hey Bjarni
13:08<dih>look at the time diff, chick
13:08<Prof_Frink>planetmaker: Pass one over here then
13:09<planetmaker>here you go:
13:09*planetmaker hands Prof_Frink a beer
13:09*Prof_Frink drinks
13:09<planetmaker>what you want? Guiness? Erdinger? Duvel? HertogJan? Flensß
13:09<Mchl>may I have some green tea please?
13:09*Bjarni puts up a sign "enjoyment of your own liquor is prohibited in this channel"
13:10<Prof_Frink>planetmaker: I want what I asked for.
13:10<planetmaker>oh :)
13:11<planetmaker>ghasty foreign languages :)
13:12<planetmaker>cu later then.
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13:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13268 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/ai.cpp ai/ai.h openttd.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: kill AIs on game abortion
13:43<Touqen>heheh, he said abortion
13:49<@Bjarni>that is when you have a game and don't want it anymore
13:51<dih>i have roller coaster tycoon and dont want it anymore
13:51<dih>i'll get an abortion
13:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13269 /trunk/src/bridge_gui.cpp:
13:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Codechange: build bridge window uses GUILists Sort() now
13:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Cleanup: make some globals part of the build bridge window
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14:17<dih>are newgrf's listed in the newgrf query in the same order that they are loaded in?
14:19<@peter1138>newgrf query?
14:20<dih>the response of UDP_CLIENT_GET_NEWGRFS
14:20<@peter1138>should be
14:22<Ammler>dih: do you sort them?
14:23<Ammler>because the order of your lib isn't the same as the server order
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14:23<Ammler>but I like it in alphabetical order more
14:24<dih>yes - but not usefull if someone wants to load the grf's for single player
14:24<Ammler>well, then he would also miss the parameters
14:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13270 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: There is no need to clear lists in the window constructor
14:26<Ammler>a export function from a save would be more useful
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14:27<dih>write it :-P
14:27<Ammler>it might be already there, at least a function called saveConfig or so
14:28<Ammler>but I wasn't able to use it .-)
14:29<Ammler>you might be able to modify that so it would work :P
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14:31<CIA-3>OpenTTD: skidd13 * r13271 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Codechange: groups sorting uses GUILists Sort() now
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14:39<dih>could someone check if there could ever be a situation where a client gets a desync message and the server sais connection lost?
14:42<SmatZ>is it really important?
14:58<Rubidium>dih: technically yes; the client determines whether it desyncs. If it loses the connection after the sync-frame then it knows it has desynced, but the server isn't notified of this (no connection anymore).
14:58<Rubidium>the chance that this happens is near-zero though
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15:27<Ammler>did something change with handling of town names?
15:27<Ammler>glx: ?
15:28<+glx>not that I remember
15:28<Ammler>so it should still work with 21...
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15:31<Ammler>the whole cfg is reorganized
15:31<Ammler>is there a compatibility switch?
15:32<Rubidium>why would you need a compatability switch?
15:33<Ammler>because It seems we can't load our old cfg anymore
15:33<Rubidium>for me it did load the old cfgs
15:33<@Belugas>Ammler must have been playing with some patches or something..
15:33<SmatZ>problem may be that old OTTD versions discard new openttd.cfg format
15:34<Rubidium>SmatZ' explanation sounds way more likely
15:34<Ammler>yeah, do we need now different cfg per revision?
15:35<Rubidium>just don't load a new-style CFG in an old-style openttd and then the resulting CFG in a new-style openttd
15:35<Rubidium>as that'd most likely reset the settings
15:36<@peter1138>which is quite obvious :)
15:36<@peter1138>and if you're messing around with keeping old revisions, you should be using separate config files too
15:38<Ammler>hmm, since 0.5 I only use one cfg
15:38<Ammler>that worked quite well
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15:39<@peter1138>well tough
15:39<@peter1138>we changed stuff
15:39<planetmaker>hm. Upon restart of a server I was connected to, I got an assertion during re-connect:
15:39<SmatZ>again? :-x
15:39<planetmaker>no, just the one I said at #openttdcoop
15:40<SmatZ>this bug should be fixed
15:40<SmatZ>*have been
15:40<SmatZ>3000 revisions ago
15:40<SmatZ>or so.. maybe 1500 :)
15:40<Ammler>why was that change needed?
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15:41<planetmaker>I remember that there was a fix, yes. :) I think, you did that :)
15:41<SmatZ>Ammler: to better merge/join patches (of different kind), game settings and difficulty settings
15:42<Rubidium>because I seem to remember some people requesting the ability to change some difficulty settings via the console...
15:42<SmatZ>planetmaker: yeah :) do you get that "executing command from past" (or so) error?
15:42-!-Roujin [] has joined #openttd
15:43<planetmaker>SmatZ: no. Just /.../src/players.cpp:865: failed assertion `_local_player == PLAYER_SPECTATOR'
15:43<planetmaker>hi Roujin
15:43<Rubidium>planetmaker: which server?
15:43<planetmaker>#openttdcoop public server
15:43<planetmaker>latest nightly
15:45<Roujin>hey SmatZ, you still interested in the drag&draw patch? I kinda read nothing from you since I changed what you suggested.. (making it available only in scedit for now, without usage of CTRL...)
15:45<SmatZ>Roujin: yeah errrr... I will ask
15:46<Roujin>freshly updated it to trunk again today aswell ;)
15:47<Roujin>isn't that beautiful? :P
15:47<Ammler>Rubidium: It is of course better now, it's just because it was that complicated before, we made a webconfigurator, which isn't compatible anymore, the new structure looks really clean, indeed.
15:47<SmatZ>Roujin: it is :-)
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15:59<@Belugas>yup, can't stop progress
16:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13272 /branches/noai/src/ (43 files in 2 dirs):
16:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: strdup all parameter strings coming from Squirrel going into the API after the possible WChar* -> char* conversion and free them after return.
16:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: signs getting strange names because the FS2OTTD buffer was already overwritten by commands/print attempts of other AIs.
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16:09<Ammler>SpComb: you need to update your configuration code too, but you might have it easier... :-)
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16:18<Ammler>maybe you should use a new name for the cfg
16:18<Ammler>something like openttd7.cfg
16:20<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13273 /trunk/src/ (bridge_gui.cpp core/bitmath_func.hpp): -Fix [FS#2042]: MSVC warnings (again)
16:21<Ammler>my cfg looks now so: :-)
16:21<Ammler>all in one
16:25<Ammler>it looks like you should 1. backup the cfg
16:26<dih>since when are there that many groups?
16:26<Ammler>then save it with new format and then with old format and overwrite the old sections with the backup and you should still be able to play everything with one cfg
16:26<dih>i only remember [settings] [network] [misc] and something like that
16:27<Ammler>dih: it's very clean and easy now...
16:27<dih>but no = forced after a newgrf line
16:27<dih>to make it ini standard
16:28<dih> /path/to/the.grf =
16:28<dih>instead of
16:28<dih> /path/to/the.grf
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16:35<Ammler>if you quit a "new" client, it does delete "old" sections
16:36<Ammler>so, it's not possible to share one cfg for all revisions anymore
16:37<Ammler>how do you do it now?
16:39<@Belugas>one folder and one config for each of your versions
16:39<@Belugas>seems logical
16:39<@Belugas>is it?
16:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: richk * r13274 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (482 files in 24 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12806:13144.
16:50<Ammler>Belugas: no, really not. :-)
16:50<Ammler>why do you look for a cfg in ~/.openttd/ then?
16:51<@Bjarni>svippy is on qdb
16:51<@Bjarni>either that or somebody close to him with a similar name
16:51<@Bjarni>(like his brother)
16:53<SmatZ>@seen svip
16:53<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: svip was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 29 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <svip> Who says which gender they are?
16:53<@Bjarni>@seen svippy
16:53<@DorpsGek>Bjarni: svippy was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours, 41 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <svippy> ;-;
16:53*Bjarni slaps svippy
16:53<@Bjarni>WAKE UP
16:53<SmatZ>svip != svippy ?
16:54<@Bjarni>I think it's the same guy
16:54<@Bjarni>at least they live at the same location and uses the same ISP
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16:55<@Bjarni>if he shows up then I have something to tell him
16:55<@Bjarni>but I'm only telling if he shows up
16:56<@Bjarni>I guess I better highlight him then
16:56<@Bjarni>svippy: I got something to tell you but I will only tell you if you say anything
16:57<@Bjarni> <-- wtf
16:57<@Bjarni>how did that happen???
16:58<@Bjarni>the link
16:59<@Bjarni>there is an American football stuck in a solid door
16:59<+glx>unless it's a bullet
17:00<@Bjarni>a football shaped bullet
17:00<@Bjarni>I guess that's possible
17:03-!-Mark [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06<Eddi|zuHause3><Bjarni> <-- here is the pricelist <-- it's the "wrong" kind of waving ;)
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17:08<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13275 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h:
17:08<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Fix: sort lists with 2 items, too
17:08<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Fix: reset VL_RESORT and resort timer even when no sort was needed
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17:25<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause3: maybe you can explain the waving on that page
17:25<SpComb>cfg changed where?
17:25<@Bjarni>I didn't really get why it's fined
17:26<Roujin>Bjarni: you mean the 5th item?
17:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13276 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h: -Codechange: use qsort() for initial sorting of a list for better performance (credits go to skidd13 and peter1138)
17:27<Roujin>to wave like that in front of ones face means to tell the other person that he's not right in his mind
17:27<dih>i vote for a = sign at the end of newgrf config settings that do not have parameters set
17:28<SpComb>does a new OpenTTD version have a different .cfg format or what?
17:28<dih>more detail
17:28<dih>sections for everything
17:28<dih>vehicles, pf, network, stations, blah blah blupp
17:29<SpComb>and still no programatically-readable metainfo for it?
17:29<SpComb>TTDPatch has switches.xml, which is a nice feature
17:29<dih>my granmother has adjustable teeth
17:29<dih>also a good feature
17:29<SpComb>sounds like it
17:29<dih><-- is funny :-P
17:29<Ammler>SpComb: I thought your app can handle the new format, because you parsed the source
17:30<Ammler>Error: Error(TypeError): iteration over non-sequence at /home/terom/my_ottd/web/web/templates/me_server_config.myt line 42
17:31<dih>you broke it
17:31<dih>dih is off to bed
17:31<dih>have a nice one ladies
17:32<SmatZ>night dih, have fun :-)
17:32<SpComb>Ammler: dunno, depends on what's changed, there's some things hardcoded
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17:32<Ammler>SpComb: you might be able to trash that now
17:32<Ammler>no custom_diff anymore
17:33<Ammler>the cfg looks now, like you can generate the whole cfg (except the grfs, if dih is right)
17:34<Ammler>with default ini libs
17:35<SpComb>default ini libs don't maintain the order of entries
17:35<SpComb>bad for NewGRFs
17:38<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13277 /trunk/src/ (genworld_gui.cpp openttd.cpp settings.cpp settings_func.h): -Fix: opntitle 'jumping' to the temperate climate when closing the NewGRF settings window.
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17:39<Ammler>another big advantage is possibiltiy to change almost everything (except grfs, ;-) ) over console, now.
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17:39<Ammler>and the only payment you have to make is, no sharing with other revs anymore.
17:40<Rubidium>read: other revs you're likely not going to use in two weeks anyways ;)
17:40<Rubidium>except maybe 0.6.x
17:40<Eddi|zuHause3>this is weird... i can't find any page properly explaining that hand movement
17:40<SpComb>backwards compatibility is a devlish thing
17:41<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r13278 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Fix: Missing call to FindWindowPlacementAndResize() for drop down lists
17:41<Rubidium>it's backward compatible (in OTTD)
17:41<Rubidium>just not forward compatible
17:42<Eddi|zuHause3>just start the older revisions with -c oldconfig.cfg
17:42<SpComb>hmmk, I guess there's just not really that many third-party tools that interface with OpenTTD
17:42<Sacro>openttd -c config-`openttd -v`.cfg
17:42<Sacro>except that openttd -v fails
17:42<SpComb>(so writing one is a bit painful)
17:43<Eddi|zuHause3>now that is a stupid thing to do
17:43<Ammler>Rubidium: maybe you could switch off the deleting of old sections, if the new already exists?
17:45<Ammler>hmm, just realizing, if you play with servers, you do not need those sections anyway
17:45<Ammler>everything fine :-)
17:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13279 /trunk/src/sortlist_type.h: -Codechange: simplify condition for terminating loop when reversing list order
17:48<SpComb>anyways, cfg parsing is still irrelevant for me at this stage of development *whistle*
17:50<Eddi|zuHause3>why parse the cfg manually when you can just hook into the ottd code?
17:51<SpComb>hook into it how?
17:51<Ammler>SpComb: I thought you already did?
17:52<SpComb>Ammler: I abandoned the old MyOTTD code months ago
17:52<Eddi|zuHause3>link to the functions...
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause3>i thought python could link to any language known to man
17:54<SpComb>and then if the OpenTTD functions change?
17:55<SpComb>I doubt any of the internal OpenTTD code has some kind of official API
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause3>SpComb: that problem would still exist with a "switches.xml" file
18:13<SpComb>not if the structure of the switches.xml file is defined
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18:39<ben_goodger><request target="information" class="offtopic"/>
18:40<Mchl>This channel is not valid XIRC channel!
18:40<ben_goodger>erm, what?
18:40<Touqen><response class="denial">DENIED</response>
18:41*Mchl tries to validate markup :P
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18:41<ben_goodger>my markup is perfect! :P
18:41<Mchl>where's DTD, I can't validate without it :P
18:41<ben_goodger>Mchl: xml:benchat 0.2
18:42<Mchl>uri ?
18:42<ben_goodger>anyway, I wonder if anyone could offer some help in MMORPG design; specifically, the question of botproofing an open-source one
18:42*Bjarni points to the topic
18:42<@Bjarni>specially the "English only" part
18:42<SpComb>ben_goodger: probably a pretty difficult problem to solve
18:42<ben_goodger>SpComb: indeed...
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18:43<SpComb>and probably pretty impossible to totally solve in a reasonable manner
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18:44<SpComb>you'd need to be extremely restrictive as to what information you give to the client, and then validate things like response timing
18:44<ben_goodger>the idea is to release the source for the client to make it potentially cross-platform and cross-arch, but this will of course mean that the protocol is open
18:45<ben_goodger>...go on..?
18:45<SpComb>dunno, never had to do it myself
18:45*SpComb ponders about writing an OpenTTD-multiplayer-playing bot
18:46<SpComb>hylje: <-- methinks your maintenance window is a bit overdue
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18:46<SpComb>only slightly over a month
18:46<ben_goodger>my friend opines that allowing a paid subscription service to be botted would make it unfair and hence unbusinessy
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18:49<Mchl>SpComb should ponder on multiplaying NoAI
18:49<SpComb>Mchl: nah, needs to be something covert and evil-genius-y
18:50<Mchl>ah... i see... so that maniacal laughs could be added?
18:50<SpComb>ben_goodger: perhaps you should just accept the fact that it's nigh-on impossible to completely rule out bots via protocol design, and try and figure out some behaviour-monitoring-and-human-oversight method?
18:50<ben_goodger>this was deemed to difficult to implement
18:50<ben_goodger>at this point I rolled my eyes theatrically
18:52<SpComb>I wonder how open-source FPSs cope
18:52<ben_goodger>they're not paid subscriptions, though...
18:53<Ammler>SpComb: 1 month and a year :-)
18:53<SpComb>Ammler: on hylje's site?
18:54<Ammler>yeah, :-)
18:54<SpComb>but consider e.g. automated grind-bots... masses of them that sit around in some remote place and just do the same simple-to-automate task over and over again
18:55*Roujin has gotten into noAI
18:55<SpComb>presumeably such could be detected via some kind of behaviour analysis?
18:55<ben_goodger>SpComb: that's pretty much the thing
18:55*Roujin like noAI
18:55<ben_goodger>it could probably be
18:55<SpComb>try and flag out suspicious activity so that some human operator could investigate?
18:56<ben_goodger>good idea
18:56<SpComb>I don't think it's possible to create a protocol that would stop that kind of activity
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18:57<ben_goodger>well, it would be quite easy with a windows-only closed source thing
18:57<ben_goodger>you just don't publish the protocol, and change it slightly every couple of weeks to screw up reverse engineers
18:58<ben_goodger>the trouble is that I am desperate for this game to run on linux, and to run on linux properly it really does need to be open-source
18:58<SpComb>that's just obfuscation indeed... which is a valid solution, raising the level of effort needed to do that high enough so that people won't
18:59<SpComb>although that does fail as well... they just pay human operators trivial amounts of money to play WoW in 12 hour shifts and grind away :)
18:59<SpComb>or manage to reverse-engineer it
18:59<SpComb>hmm, no wikipedia article on glider
19:00<Roujin>is it known that the AI Debug window isn't redrawn properly?
19:00<Roujin>on the noAI branch
19:00<SpComb>Q: How does Glider work? A: Glider works a lot like a regular player. It looks at your health, mana, energy, etc. It moves the mouse around and pushes keys on the keyboard. You tell it about your character, where you want to kill things, and what to kill. Then it kills for you, automatically. You can do something else, like eat dinner or go to a movie, and when you return, you'll have a lot more experience and loot.
19:00<SpComb>Q: Can I cheat with Glider? Is it a hack? A: No. It will not show you things that you cannot normally see in the game and it does not control the game other than keystrokes and mouse movements. It's not a teleport hack, speed hack, minimap hack, or anything along those lines.
19:01<@Bjarni><SpComb> although that does fail as well... they just pay human operators trivial amounts of money to play WoW in 12 hour shifts and grind away :) <--- I don't think this job is as great as it sounds
19:01<@Bjarni>I saw one suck WoW money farming company on TV once
19:01<@Bjarni>located in China
19:02<ben_goodger>as did I
19:02<@Bjarni>The guys working there did nothing but eat whatever was served, play and sleep
19:02<@Bjarni>they had a sleeping room with bunk beds in the office building
19:03<@Bjarni>while I enjoy playing computer games once in a while I prefer to do it for fun
19:03<@Bjarni>and also to do other stuff
19:04<SpComb>Bjarni: well, they only need to do it for a year or two before they have enough money to move back home, get married etc.
19:04<@Bjarni>and totally don't want to play computer games anymore :P
19:05<SpComb>I read a new york times article on it once... part of it was about how they play WoW with their own characters at internet cafes during their time off
19:06<@Bjarni>they are brainwashed
19:06<@Bjarni>maybe they speak Orcish to each other
19:07<+glx>Roujin: it uses a timer to redraw
19:07<@Bjarni>I wonders about infesting a money farming company with a java virus
19:08<@Bjarni>one that will cause the players to do stupid stuff
19:08<@Bjarni>I mean after all we are told that there is one for OpenTTD
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19:08<@Bjarni>but somehow it only affected one computer and it didn't spread
19:09<Roujin>glx: why's that?
19:09<Roujin>can't it redraw as soon as something was printed?
19:09<Roujin>currently it gets really ugly when there's some output.. part of lines are drawn, where I move my cursor and such...
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19:14<@Bjarni><rbeattie> If you were MEANT to understand it, we wouldn't have called it 'code'
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19:50<Roujin>wondered why the rollback isn't working for minutes.. then only saw in the API that it's not yet finished :'(
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20:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13280 /trunk/src/ (bridge_gui.cpp group_gui.cpp sortlist_type.h): -Fix (r13276): MSVC compilation was broken
20:29<De_Ghosty>lol that reminds me of like last wek
20:29<De_Ghosty>i saw this guy's name chinese gold farmer
20:29<De_Ghosty>it was a fps game tho
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20:51<CIA-3>OpenTTD: richk * r13281 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (162 files in 18 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r13145:13280. Includes support for Noise Level on Prop 24 in .grf files.
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---Logclosed Tue May 27 00:00:19 2008