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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-06-01

---Logopened Sun Jun 01 00:00:58 2008
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00:47<Neo_>hi every body
00:48<Neo_>Is somebody here that has open TTD on an iPhone ?
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03:20<Eddi|zuHause2>certainly nobody is here before 7AM
03:20<Eddi|zuHause2>on a sunday...
03:22<Lex>It's 8:20
03:22<Eddi|zuHause2>no, it's 9:20
03:22<Eddi|zuHause2>see for yourself what i was replying to
03:25<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause2, let's rephrase it for Lex: certainly nobody is here before 6AM on a sunday...
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03:29<hylje>Rubidium: lies
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04:50<LA>is there a patch option somewhere which makes oil wells act the same in temperate as in arctic
04:50<LA>so they wont start losing production and eventually close down
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04:55<Eddi|zuHause>write a newindustries grf
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, really, that is exactly the option you want
04:55<LA>you know I cant do something so tricky
04:56<LA>I can code only some easy things
04:56<LA>a few var2 s too.. but no industrues
04:56<LA>I would need a hell lot of help from DaleStan and maybe Pikka :P.. He has helped me so far with the wwottdgd grf :D
04:59<Eddi|zuHause> <- maybe this helps you
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06:11<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13349 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp news_type.h): -Codechange: remove a pointless flag; the flag is set before calling a function and is then reset in the function without ever reading it. Patch by Cirdan.
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06:22<Nijn>morning all!
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08:29<Wolf01>Q: timetables and load orders: what is wrong?
08:29<@Rubidium>load orders override timetables
08:29<@Rubidium>full load orders that is
08:30<Wolf01>why not the opposite?
08:30<@Rubidium>because then: "load if available", "full load" and "full load any" are equivalent
08:30<@Rubidium>in the context of time tables
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08:31<@Rubidium>because it'll always be at the station for X days/ticks
08:31<@Rubidium>with timetables it won't leave early
08:31<LA[afk]>how many ticks in one day?
08:32<@Rubidium>LA[afk]: in what context? vanilla OpenTTD?
08:32<@Rubidium>or random patchpack?
08:33<Wolf01>I need to start a train if full loaded before the timetable time, but if not full loaded it should stay at station until timetable time expired
08:33<LA[afk]>I woudln't ask a question about a random patchpack here
08:33<@Rubidium>Wolf01: doesn't work that way
08:34<Wolf01>eh, I noticed
08:34<@Rubidium>ever noticed trains leaving too early?
08:34<@Rubidium>that'd be really ground breaking
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08:35<dragonhorseboy>I agree rubidium
08:35<Pinchiukas>is there a better manual on signals than in the wiki?
08:35<Progman>what agains the manual on the wiki?
08:36<LA[afk]>dunno if it's better though
08:36<LA[afk]>and they cover pre-signals, not usual
08:38<dragonhorseboy>LA...there's one particular signalling that I never could quite figure out before...hmm let me see if I can try explain it...
08:39<dragonhorseboy>2 platforms at both ends (3 trains)... and one single in middle of the single line .. never could quite figure if it was possible to signal the middle properly or not :/
08:39<dragonhorseboy>eg train 1 at north and train 2+3 at south .. train 3 often follow train 2 but problem is making train 1 wait till the middle signal isn't red
08:40<dragonhorseboy>otherwise getting 'cornfield meets' in the middle :p
08:42<Pinchiukas>ok what the FUCK do I have to do to make the trains use one track to go one way and the other one to return
08:42<Wolf01>so Rubidium, how can I set the orders to avoid:
08:42<Wolf01>1) trains loading more than 30 days when they are already full loaded
08:42<Wolf01>2) trains waiting 30 days and then start empty, because 2 trains arrived at the same time but there is no cargo for both
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08:44<@Rubidium>use full load and don't use time tables
08:45<dragonhorseboy>good question: whatever happened to partial load? ;)
08:45<Wolf01>but then they'll wait 150 days
08:45<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: there never has been partial load
08:45<shodan>oooh - presignals guide
08:45<dragonhorseboy>rubidium...there was
08:45<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: really? which revision?
08:46<@Rubidium>maybe in some <Crappy>IN
08:46<dragonhorseboy>they just seem to not be able to bother rolling it into any RC builds for some reason tho
08:46<dragonhorseboy>I often had many 60-70% loaded freights (still do at times)
08:47<@Rubidium>Wolf01: if they wait 150 days you've got too many trains on the route
08:47<Wolf01>no, only periods of very low production
08:47<dragonhorseboy>(kinda a bit like in RT2 where I had 3 grain cars to one farm and at random it may be all cars loaded or sometimes only two cars alone .. but at least never ever empty thanks to the cargo flag option)
08:48<@Rubidium>Wolf01: time tables are not a tool to handle production changes automatically
08:50<Progman>Pinchiukas: using one-way signals
08:50<Wolf01>So what is timetable useful for?
08:51<Pinchiukas>Progman: how do I put a one way signal?
08:51<dragonhorseboy> again?
08:51<Progman>place a signal and ctrl-click on ot
08:51<dragonhorseboy>even ttdx was like that
08:51<@Rubidium>Pinchiukas: as described in the wiki: Click on an existing two-way signal to toggle it to a one-way signal. Click on it again to change its direction (leaving it one-way); the third time will revert it back to a two-way signal.
08:51<Progman>eeeuh, without CTRL
08:51<Wolf01>My buses, timetabled with autofill are all stuck together, trains wait at stations too much or start too early
08:52<Pinchiukas>oh, ok thanks
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08:52<@Rubidium>timetables are useful when you want trains to take the same amount of time for each trip
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08:53<@Rubidium>you need to reset the lateness timer manually to get them initially separated
08:53<@Rubidium>after that they'll automatically keep separated
08:56<Wolf01>I think timetable is another feature based on the game of some players, which doesn't fit other players game, like the transfer order which imho doesn't work at all but if you make the route in the only way it can work
08:57<@Rubidium>but why do we have 11 bridges then?
08:57<@Rubidium>1 type would be enough
08:57<@Rubidium>why do we have 4 rail types? 1 would also be enough
08:58<dragonhorseboy>umm do you make electric engines not suddenly decide to run with no overhead wires? :p
08:58<dragonhorseboy>and what about the few of us that likes to use NG?
08:59<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: by making sure that the train can actually take a path to it's destination that does have electrification all the way
08:59<SmatZ>problematic can be two-way red signal if you use firstred_twoway_eol
08:59<LA[afk]>hehe.. the trains could go by inertia :D
08:59<@Rubidium>if there isn't such a path it'll get into the 'take random junction until you find the destination.
09:00<Pinchiukas>ok so if I have two tracks that could be used to leave a station, but if I only want to use one, I put a one-way signal on it (facing the station) and the trains will prefer it to the track with no signal?
09:00<dragonhorseboy>rubidium...I'll rather prefer to be able to build one line with a mix of wire and no wire and just let the trains only have to know which station to stop at and not route-figuring-out
09:01<dragonhorseboy>strangely enough I often do kinda the same thing with RT2 (and nope no waypoints used at all)
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09:01<dragonhorseboy>my way of letting fast freight and express share one mainline but head to seperate end stations
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09:02<dragonhorseboy>to our own of course :p
09:03<Hendikins>Hrm, boring night at work tonight.
09:03<Hendikins>I've only sold one ticket, but at least it is an expensive one
09:03<LA[afk]>dragonhorseboy: Then electrifythe whole track.. Diesel and steam are able to run at it.. and just give out the proper orders
09:03<@Rubidium>there must be something fishy with either the signalling or the electrification if it does such a thing. Trains will not willfully take tracks where they don't have power on.
09:05<dragonhorseboy>LA...nah when thats done the trains often take wrong legs at times
09:05<dragonhorseboy>so there...the line's only partial wired and partial not wired for a reason
09:06<dragonhorseboy>funny enough RT2 is a bit smarter tho...if it determines that the next station is not electrified the train refuses to leave the station its already sitting transparent at
09:06<@Rubidium>OTTD just gives you a news message that it can't reach the next ordered station and start driving randomly trying not to clog up the station
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09:09<dragonhorseboy>well it does clog up the line if its only a small network tho?
09:09<dragonhorseboy>hence why I kinda like RT2's behaviour a bit better in this case
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09:24<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13350 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix: wrong tooltip for waypoint picker scrollbar
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09:24<Pinchiukas>so if a train has a choice of a red signal and no signal at all, it chooses the path to the red signal?
09:25<@Rubidium>does "no signal" means absolutely no signal or signal in the opposite way?
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09:26<@Rubidium>in the former it'll take the path without signal, in the latter it'll way at the red signal
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09:28<Pinchiukas>Rubidium: oh, ok thanks :)
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09:36<Sacro>Here’s the first problem. The new KDE launcher is a gynecologist interface: There you are, sitting in front of a 20″ screen, but the programmer has dictated that you have to do everything by poking around in a small box.
09:36<Pinchiukas>but if I want say three trains leaving the station on one track, I still need to put a buttload of signals on the track?
09:38<@Rubidium>yes and no; the track needs quite a few signals, but you can place most of them automagically
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09:38<@Rubidium>just build the first one way signal pointing to the right direction
09:39<@Rubidium>then 'drag' that signal towards the direction you want the signals to be placed, press the CTRL key on your keyboard then 'end' the dragging by releasing the mouse button
09:39<@Rubidium>voila... signals build till the next junction
09:40<@Rubidium>this is *also* described in the same signal wiki page as the rest of the signalling stuff is described on
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11:08<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13351 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: disable warnings about unused variable for builds without asserts
11:10<LA>SmatZ: Can you give me the url to your fixed patvch for wwottdgd?
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11:34<LA>How can I specify the revision text with bottd?
11:34<LA>when I patch something, it still shows the trunk revision
11:34<+glx>modify in the patch
11:35<+glx>but bottd should at least show rXXXXM
11:35<LA>hmm.. maybe it didn't get the patch then :D
11:35<LA>coz it showed r13305 just
11:36<LA>atm compiling again
11:36<+glx>means unpatched source or changes outside src
11:36<LA>ye, I get that :)
11:37<LA>It's a hell trouble compiling on windows actually :P
11:37<LA>If I had interent connection in Linux, Id be ready ages ago
11:38<LA>ok.. all good now :)
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11:55<planetmaker>ok, doesn't work :(
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11:55<planetmaker>wrong channel :(
11:59<Nijn>i felt like symphatizing with your pain.
12:00<Touqen>Laughing at your expense;
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12:45<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13352 /branches/0.6/ (7 files in 6 dirs):
12:45<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk (r13348, r13222, r13221, r13217):
12:45<CIA-3>OpenTTD: - Fix: Industry tiles would sometimes tell they need a 'level' slope when they do not want the slope (r13348)
12:45<CIA-3>OpenTTD: - Fix: Attempts to make the old AI perform better (r13217, r13221, r13222)
12:56<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13353 /tags/0.6.1/ (12 files in 4 dirs): -Release 0.6.1.
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12:57<Eddi|zuHause>is this a late april's fools joke?
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause>like, a june's fool?
12:59<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: you mean you can get the AI to perform worse?
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>who talked about AI?
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean the line after that
13:00<@Bjarni>wait and see :P
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>(and the previous line with a similar content, which was exactly 2 months ago)
13:01*Bjarni imagines that Eddi|zuHause might wait for a while
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'm on strike, you know
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13:01<@Bjarni>you are?
13:01<@Bjarni>I call it fired
13:01<dih>whats wrong with 0.6.1 release?
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: yes, i will not play openttd until PBS is in ;)
13:03<@Bjarni>you will wait THAT many years???
13:04<dih>Bjarni: i made a bug report for you :-P
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>that almost was a palindrome :p
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13:06<@Rubidium>YARTRAY has a similar meaning as YARTNAY
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13:07<Eddi|zuHause>i still have no idea what it should mean
13:08<@Rubidium>yet another reason to (not add|rejection adding) yapp
13:09<@Rubidium>YAЯTRAY looks even better :)
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>yeah ;)
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>yay for the cyrillic messengers dropping the alphabet table :p
13:10<dih>out of curiosity, what is the reason?
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13:12<@peter1138>the reason is we need 0.6.1 to get used ;)
13:12<dih>seriously, is it not coded by the guideline, or what is the hinderance?
13:13<dih>i am not arguing, just wanting to understand :-)
13:15<@peter1138>basically at the moment we're all busy do other stuff
13:15<@peter1138>be that other changes or real-life, etc
13:16<dih>hehe ;-)
13:16<@Rubidium>big, *ultra* complex, did not like it when I tried it
13:16<Dred_furst>Pikka just did an awesome job of making the original TTD trains be able to be refitted to newindustries
13:17<dih>Rubidium: code or gaming wise?
13:17<dih>peter1138: is that not a constant situation :-P
13:17<@Rubidium>dih: game wise
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: why? it reduces the amount of (useful) signal types from 4 to 2
13:19<dih>i am guessing it's to complex to setup a pbs area ;-)
13:19<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: because my big station's throughput became LOWER with YAPP signals
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i have never actually seen your station
13:19<@Rubidium>it'd have gotten faster with simple TTDP-a-like PBS signals
13:20<dih>where is the difference in the 2 Rubidium?
13:20<@peter1138>big differences, but for the better in most people's opinions
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>my guess is if you get lower output, you probably have put a signal where you shouldn't have
13:21<dih>i mean
13:21<dih>where exactly is the difference in their approach?
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>they don't allow trains going backwards
13:22<dih>ttdp does not?
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>only with doublesided signals
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>which imho causes more troubles than it solves
13:23<@peter1138>ttdp's pbs (and ottd's) and pre-signalling always had problems with two-way stations
13:23<@peter1138>but i think ttdp got a new feaure to fix that
13:23<@Rubidium>dih: TTDP-PBS is more like: "don't care which exit it takes" and YAPP is more like "oh, that exit means that the route to the station is longer, so I'd better not use that exit AT ALL"
13:24<@Rubidium>and then later... hmm, it's the only free exit, lets get a train to there
13:24<dih>so a yapf inside the yapp
13:24<@Rubidium>it should've done it EARLIER
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that is the point... there is no such thing as an "exit signal", totally remove those
13:25<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: then I get a 20-ish tile signal block leading to two platforms
13:25<@Rubidium>so the two platforms are only used like 25% of the time instead of 60-ish
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>do you have a screenshot?
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>but imho... ONE (rare special case) layout performing worse should not be a reason to not include yapp (because you can still do that one segment with traditional signals)
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13:28<@Rubidium>it's kinda how I build all high capacity, litte space stations
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>i still have never seen it!
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13:29<Pinchiukas_>ok now why do my trains go to the wrong service depot?
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13:30<Pinchiukas_>I specify that they go to one in their schedule, and they go to another
13:30<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: can't find the pre-YAPP savegame, there's a YAPP savegame in the YAPP thread with the problem
13:30<@Rubidium>but no screenshot
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>"Better handling of spread out stations like the example from Rubidium." <- whatt is this about then?
13:31<@Rubidium>that improved it, but AFAIK did not completely solve the issue
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>of course i have no version 5 YAPP...
13:39<Ammler>dear devs, it seems current nightly doesn't use server pw anymore
13:39<Ammler>it is set with server_pw
13:40<Ammler>but you can still login without
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13:49<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea why, but svn access totally chokes every few kb i get... it's like this for several months now
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>if i do "svn up" i get a random amount of 2 to 10 files, and then nothing for 5 minutes
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>then it suddenly decides to continue
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13:50<Eddi|zuHause>and this is the only svn server that shows this behaviour
13:51<@peter1138>works fine for me
13:51<@Rubidium>though svn really fails in magic ways when the internet connection isn't 100% fine
13:51<@Rubidium>i.e. it goes haywire when packets get lost any such
13:52<@peter1138>personally i set up svn over http
13:52<@peter1138>'zero ballistics' really is wank
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, this only shows with the openttd svn, and my internet connection is nowhere near full
13:55-!-mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
13:56-!-glx changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | for all related bugs/patches
13:56-!-mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek
13:59<@orudge>how exciting.
13:59*orudge shall probably have to install Virtual PC on XP on his Mac now to compile OS/2
13:59<@orudge>as OS/2 doesn't seem to want to boot in VPC2007 or VMWare on my main PC
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14:02<@Bjarni>but I guess that problem is nothing against what problems VPC could produce when emulating an x86 on PPC hardware
14:02<Pinchiukas_>can somebody look at my saved game and tell me why do my trains get lost all the time?
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14:05<Mchl>Rubidium: there's typo in 0.6.1 announcment. last line
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14:06<Mchl>hmmm... or maybe that's just alternative spelling
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14:06<Mchl>I'm used to 'therefore'
14:07<ben_goodger_>no, it's incorrect
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14:31<Roujin>yay, 0.6.1 time :)
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14:32<Wolf01>I'm waiting for the topic on the forum to post the news on my site :P
14:32<Pinchiukas__>can somebody look at my saved game and tell me why do my trains get lost all the time?
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14:32<Roujin>oh btw: wiki article 0.6.1 says: "This version was released on a time in the future."
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14:35*Prof_Frink gets in his TARDIS
14:35*Prof_Frink goes to The Library
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>*Prof_Frink has been saved*
14:37<Prof_Frink>Nah, i'm cunning
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14:37<Prof_Frink>I've gone one of those 1M candle power torches
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15:09<Pinchiukas__>can somebody look at my saved game and tell me why do my trains get lost all the time?
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>have you ever actually provided a savegame?
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15:20<Backeman>Hi! Are you allowed to discuss gamplay-tips in here?
15:21<Backeman>Are there any good tips on how to make a smooth crossing where you from two tracks to one with trains?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>try the openttdcoop wiki
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>they have some very extensive explanations on track layout
15:24<Backeman>Ì checked the wiki and it has very nice drawings of ordinary crossings. What I want is if there is any smart way to go from two tracks inot one (which render a taffic-queues).
15:25<Backeman>btw, openttdcoop-wiki?
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15:36<Backeman>thanks, I'll bookmark that one for sure! ;)
15:37<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r13354 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Codechange: make 8bpp_optimized blitter ~25% faster in encoding and ~15% faster in drawing (depends on architecture)
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15:41<krix>just a dumb question, maybe i did not read every docs :) If i build openttd with --enable-dedicated then i got _only_ server binary ? Or i got client binary which can serve as a dedicated server ?
15:42<krix>(i'm trying to package ottd thats why i'm asking)
15:43<SmatZ>you will be able to run only dedicated server
15:43<SmatZ>normal client can run dedicated server, too
15:43<krix>thx thats what i wanted to figure out :)
15:43<SmatZ>openttd -D
15:44<krix>and if i'm not thinking wrong, --enable-dedicated need less library depends than 'normal' compile ? (i mean less lib deps for binary?)
15:44<krix>well i can figure it out with ldd tho
15:44<SmatZ>you don't need for example SDL
15:45<krix>okay. ty
15:45<SmatZ>you are welcome
15:46<krix>maybe its a good idea to integrate some '--build-server-tooo' option for configure things ? Because if i want to package for a distro then i need to do it 'twice' :) or well not just me.
15:46<krix>and maybe if its a dedicated only server then other binary name should be great
15:47<krix>(or maybe not a good idea :p )
15:48<SmatZ>I think it is fine that a normal build can run a server - the added code for that is minimal
15:48<SmatZ>two binary names could be confusing...
15:48<SmatZ>I would sat
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15:49<krix>yes maybe, but the default build gives client/server type binary so it can be openttd. But when you select --enable-dedicated you can only run dedicated server and that binary could not act like a client.
15:49<krix>thats confusing i think :)
15:49<Prof_Frink>It's not that hard to do make dedicated && mv openttd openttd_dedicated
15:50<krix>i know its not hard
15:50<krix>this is about 'just make a little more packager-friendly-thingy :)
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15:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i asked that before, but what is the sense of town_cmd.cpp:1012?
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>when a town tries to build a road, it unconditionally flattens the land
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>while a town would look much more organic when it would try to build on the slope instead
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>it could be made like in town_cmd.cpp:1133, where it is guarded by a "if (Chance16(1, 6))"
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16:02<Eddi|zuHause>even worse, it does this before even deciding if it can possibly build a road on this tile
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16:07<Mchl>yeah... it looks somewhat strange, that towns grow 'tentacles' instead of adapting to whatever terrain they're on
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause># All I ever wanted
16:45<Eddi|zuHause># All I ever needed
16:45<Eddi|zuHause># Is here in my arms
16:45<Eddi|zuHause># Words are very unnecessary
16:45<Eddi|zuHause># They can only do harm
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19:10<@Belugas>whooohou,.... depeche mode Eddi|zuHause :D
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19:54<Dred_furst>Where can I get hold of GRFwizard or whatever the new one is called?
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21:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: glx * r13355 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r13300): GUI glitches caused by too much 'optimisation'
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 02 00:00:16 2008