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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-02

---Logopened Wed Jul 02 00:00:31 2008
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05:18<Eddi|zuHause3>who is shouting that early in the morning?!?
05:19<dih>i think i need to expand my ignore list!
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05:20<Yorick>dih: I think I need to delete that folder called "/usr/projecs/rcongui"
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05:22<Vikthor>dih: You are doing it wrong, if you want to wake the channel up, you have to go like: "Hi I finished programmable signals patch, anybody to test it?" Or at least " Hi I fixed bug #xyz, can somebody review my patch?" :p
05:23<Yorick>Vikthor: dih likes shouting
05:23<dih>i have my work to do and that will not be released for a while
05:23<dih>Yorick: i dont care what you do with rcon gui
05:24<Yorick>*you* don't
05:24<dih>_i_ dont
05:25<Yorick>now I know more people than only you :)
05:25<dih>pm and Ammler more likely will care ;-)
05:25<Yorick>that's what I said
05:25<dih>you annoy me
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05:26<Yorick>you annoy me
05:26<dih>you have to repeat me on everything i say?
05:28<dih>well at least that is settled
05:29<HaloMaster>well at least that is settled
05:30*HaloMaster waits
05:30*Yorick waits
05:31<Vikthor>Waiting for a kick? :p
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05:32*dih ignores *!~yorick@* & *!~osiris@*
05:32<Yorick>dih has it his way
05:32<Yorick>we'll unignore me tomorrow
05:32<Yorick>I know he will
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05:33<Yorick>he can't stay angry at me more than 1 day :(
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05:34<dih>what a bunch of annoying kidds
05:34<Yorick>see you haven't even ignored me
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05:36<Eddi|zuHause3>dih: well you had to wake them up, it's entirely your fault :P
05:36<dih>well - yeah - i can see that
05:36<dih>i appologize
05:36<dih>to the entire channel
05:36<dih>(apprt of those on my ignore list :-P)
05:38<dih>the tunnels thread has been amazingly quiet
05:38<dih>it's a real shame :-P
05:38<Eddi|zuHause3>i have never seen this ominous tunnel thread...
05:38<dih>Draakon basically makes a fool of him self in every post he makes :-P
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05:39<dih>talking of lunch... it's nearly time to start thinking what to eat today....
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05:41<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause3: not worth a usual TTDP/OTTD thread.
05:41<dih>the thread is awsome
05:41<dih>it's hillarious
05:42<Eddi|zuHause3>i remember having read the very beginning of this thread
05:42<dih>get to some ot the Draakon posts
05:43<dih>and you will hava the giggle fits :-P
05:43<Noldo>What is that you are really talking about?
05:43<dih>a thread?
05:45<Noldo>in it
05:45<Noldo>ok. I get the have to register the licence but is there something else
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05:46<Doorslammer|BRSet>Oh boy, this guy's the genius eh? :P
05:47<Doorslammer|BRSet>Draakon - Brain = Not very much worth talking about?
05:47<dih>he is claming that copyright does not exist in estonia
05:48<dih>and therefore it is not of interest to him :-P
05:48<dih>or any other license
05:49<Eddi|zuHause3>it's such a pain reading "there" which totally does not fit in the sentence and then trying to figure out whether they actually ment "their" or "they're"
05:49<Eddi|zuHause3>especially for someone speaking english as a foreign language
05:49<Eddi|zuHause3>and it's always native speakers who make such horrible mistakes
05:50<Doorslammer|BRSet>We have a few other 'morons' in other forums at the moment too
05:50<Eddi|zuHause3>i'm dead serious
05:50<Doorslammer|BRSet>Been an entertaining few weeks for me :D
05:50<Eddi|zuHause3>and i'm not even talking about draakon
05:50<dih>which post?
05:50<Eddi|zuHause3>"That Guy" on the second page
05:51<dih>never even bothered reading that post i think
05:52<dih>oh - yes i do
05:52<dih>remember that is
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05:53<Eddi|zuHause3>it's funny how maquinista hid the fact that rails on tunnels look totally weird by running a train over them :p
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05:54<Doorslammer|BRSet>I wouldnt have thought rails on tunnels was important in any way
05:54<Eddi|zuHause3>it is for the ultra-minimalistic fitting of junctions
05:55<Eddi|zuHause3>you can save 2 tiles on the signal distance before and after the tunnel
05:55<dih>i could imagine it being useful
05:55<dih>but then i dont really play
05:56<Doorslammer|BRSet>Hmm, so only a real benefit for those fixated on making 'the holy grail of junctions'
05:56<Eddi|zuHause3>but the use fades towards zero when you actually have flexible tunnels/bridges
05:58<dih>i am not sure i ever saw a screeny of it in action...
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06:00<Doorslammer|BRSet>Hmmm, basetunnels...
06:00<Doorslammer|BRSet>I dont think that works on OTTD anyway
06:13<Doorslammer|BRSet>Wow, that was rather stupid eh?
06:16<MorgyN>so when are underground networks being patched in? *flees*
06:17<Doorslammer|BRSet>Ask Draakon, he is the master that knows everything :P
06:18<Doorslammer|BRSet>So he told me anyway... :D
06:21<MorgyN>that soon?! awesome.
06:21<Eddi|zuHause3>well... SmatZ made a prototype implementation, but then he got... distracted
06:25<dih>he's not online yet... :-(
06:26<dih>@seen SmatZ
06:26<@DorpsGek>dih: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 16 hours, 39 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <SmatZ> mmm
06:29<MorgyN>so we put the tracks here...station under the.... ooh, kittens!
06:29<Eddi|zuHause3>Gekz: you should get that thing checked
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06:51<Noldo>the enginepool controversy seems to have died
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06:56<Ammler>Noldo: but the problem still exists...
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07:03<Noldo>new feature, it would be quite supricing if there were no problems
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07:04<Eddi|zuHause3>it's not a problem, it's a misconception
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07:18<dragonhorseboy>just curious about it but any of you have any thought on what could be the lowest system openttd could possible run on? (256x256 to 1024x256 maps .. no ecs anyhow)
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07:39<dih>dragonhorseboy: nope
07:40<dih>try it
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07:40<dragonhorseboy>dih meh I'm wondering what ram amount to allocate ^-^
07:40<dih>it's a pretty vague question... number of industries, towns, vehicles, ships, what pathfinder
07:41<dragonhorseboy>how about assume 'normal' default industries&towns .. dbsetxl for about 60-70 trainsets .. and just a few oil ships?
07:41<dragonhorseboy>or still hard to tell
07:42<dih>60-70 trainsets?
07:42<orudge>Yexo: I'm here now
07:42<orudge>joachim: I'm also here now
07:42<dragonhorseboy>dih yeah
07:42<Yexo>orudge: I was helping joachim :)
07:42<dih>i did not know there were that many trainsets
07:42<orudge>Yexo: ah, heh
07:42<dih>60-70 trains is something different - if you mean that :-P
07:43<dragonhorseboy>dih hehehe yeah :p
07:43<dih>ships are evil, esp. if run with yapf
07:43<dih>if it's a dedicated server, you can do more as you save a lot on the drawing
07:43<dih>still - i would not go with ships if you are trying to save resources
07:43<dragonhorseboy>evil? umm where did that came from?
07:44<Yexo>dih: you're right, but that's more because it takes a lot of cpu, not memory
07:44<dragonhorseboy>I've ran a lot of ships with no issue on low-memory ttdx ^-^
07:44<Noldo>I wonder why nobody cares about ship pathfinging
07:44<dragonhorseboy>(and only about 50-60mhz no less)
07:44<dih>Yexo: 13:18 < dragonhorseboy> just curious about it but any of you have any thought on what could be the lowest system openttd could possible run on?
07:44<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: as dih said, it's mainly a concern when using yapf
07:45<Yexo>dih: <dragonhorseboy> dih meh I'm wondering what ram amount to allocate :p
07:45<Noldo>Yexo: npf suffers with ships too
07:45<dih>no - npf does not suffer... the cpu does :-D
07:45<Noldo>haha :)
07:46<Noldo>I hope kudr did benchmarks against npf when he did yapf
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07:50<dih>dragonhorseboy: rather explain what you are up to, and then ask the question again ;-)
07:51<dragonhorseboy>dih..just wondering if openttd perhaps could run on my main system or I'll just stick to only reading some threads on forums at times for good
07:51<Noldo>use 64*64 map and you might be fine
07:52<dih>with no ships 128^2 or 256^2 should be fine too
07:53<Noldo>or ships with opf
07:54<dih>and buoys every 2 tiles :-P
07:55<dih>yapf + buoys is pretty good too - if you place them like every 10 - 15 tiles
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07:56<Noldo>it might be worth it to give warning when the distance between orders is to big
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07:56<Noldo>with opf it gives an error, doesn't it?
07:56<dragonhorseboy>yeah it does
07:57<dragonhorseboy>and I usually use the buoys almost as far as they would go .. just call me saving a bit money and a possible eyesore sight (eg too many buoys visible from one place on shoreline)
07:57<dih>at cpu cost :-P
07:57<dragonhorseboy>not really
07:57<dih>which - if i recall your question - you dont have all that much spare of anyway
07:58<dragonhorseboy>then will someone explain why openttd is more bugged than ttdx for the same thing? ;)
07:58<dih>you just dont know what bugs exist in ttdx
07:58<dragonhorseboy>dih..I do
07:58<dih>+ open has just a few more features
07:59<dih>if you have more fingers than a usual human being, then it's a handfull :-P
07:59<dih>*slighly more fingers
08:00<Noldo>more bugged?
08:01<dih>does anybody feel like writing a plugin for znc? (
08:02<dih>perl or c++ :-P
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08:05<@peter1138>le sigh
08:05-!-peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | for all related bugs/patches | No idiots |
08:05<@peter1138>oh well
08:06<@peter1138>dragonhorseboy: BUGGED does not mean BUGGY
08:06<dih>hi peter1138
08:07*Forked stares at that last part of the topic
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08:08*Forked goes afk, crying
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08:13-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.1 | Website: * (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | for all related bugs/patches | No idiots |
08:14<MorgyN>oh bugger, didn't see the last part. *parts*
08:17-!-Osai is now known as Osai`off
08:20<ln->no away nicks
08:20<@peter1138>that's not in the topic :)
08:21<ln->no, but should be
08:21<dih>ln-: Osai has been doing that for months... if you only notice now you should pay more attention :-P
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08:30<Smoky555>hi all
08:31<Smoky555>can somebody help me with cross-compiling in linux for windows?
08:31<dih>#gcc ?
08:32<Smoky555>no... compilling without any errors, but when linking ...
08:32<Noldo>there might be something in the wiki an also compilefarm has some stuff in the mercurial
08:33<dih> <- i was hoping his next post to be more funny
08:33<Ammler>dih: not since months, since ever...
08:35<Smoky555>Noldo: i make all such in a wiki (include libpng and zlib), i also compile SDL libs for mingw... but in a stage "linking openttd.exe" i have error "fontcache.o:fontcache.cpp:(.text+0x124): undefined reference to `_FT_New_Face'" and "heightmap.o:heightmap.cpp:(.text+0x30d): undefined reference to `_png_create_read_struct'"
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08:35<dih>Ammler: since the bouncer?
08:35<dih>else he used to quite
08:36<Ammler>but he renamed too
08:36<Ammler>Kendo, zZz and what else...
08:36<Noldo>Smoky555: you don't have all the needed libraries
08:36<dih>point being, ln- never complained before...
08:37<Yexo>Smoky555: try configuring with ./configure --without-libpng --without-libfreetype
08:37<Yexo>you won't have png support, but that works for me
08:37<Ammler>In- did, also to you :P
08:37<Noldo>I ? isn't it l
08:38<Ammler>that's why tabcompletation didn't function :-)
08:38<Doorslammer|BRSet>dih: Ill send him round an excavator for the hole he is making
08:38<dih>or IoI
08:38<Ammler>I might need to change my font.
08:40<Doorslammer|BRSet>You should try IRCing with a British Rail font
08:41<Doorslammer|BRSet>tokal has a hairdresser symbol :P
08:41<Doorslammer|BRSet>Everyone else has the signs from the toilets :D
08:42*Doorslammer|BRSet no longer thinks BR font is a smart idea
08:45<dih>i want an ignore module for znc
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08:49<Noldo>the ship pathfinding just won't leave my head
08:49<Noldo>maybe I need to start coding a solution
08:50<MorgyN>Whats the bug number?
08:50<Smoky555>Yexo: yes, yes, i see... but i need png and freetype support ...
08:51<Noldo>MorgyN: there isn't one bacause it kind of isn't a bug
08:53<MorgyN>Ahh i see
08:55<Doorslammer|BRSet>dih> New (but worthless) post now
08:55<Noldo>MorgyN: problem is that ship pathfinding is slow
08:56<MorgyN>I just read
08:57<MorgyN>the current methodoligy does sound awful =P
08:57<MorgyN>there are some pathfinding routines on gamedev that would be applicable, being that sea units can either move onto a tile, or not
08:58<dih>MorgyN: the thing is that yapf is a total path pathfinder
08:58<Noldo>It's really a matter of too many tiles to search on large maps
08:58<dih>any tile is a turning point
09:00<MorgyN>yes but if you remove the conditionals and make assumptions you can speed up the decicion process
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09:21<@Belugas>hello everyone
09:21<Yexo>hello Belugas
09:22*dih waves
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09:22<dih>they are more enjoyable than air waves
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09:26<dih> <- awsome!
09:28<dih>that is a very very good post
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09:28<dih>orudge: can we have a top 100 for best posts?
09:28<Doorslammer|BRSet>That looks like a rather good excuse to get banned :P
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09:29<Forked>should have posted this one: :)
09:29<Doorslammer|BRSet>Good old hindsight strikes again :P
09:30<MorgyN>aha Hallo Belugas, if a 16 company patch was created against current stable, what would incline you to put it into trunk?
09:30<Doorslammer|BRSet>Ah, that machine
09:31<Doorslammer|BRSet>More of a mobile conveyor than anything else ;)
09:31<dih>it's against stable? why not make it against trunk right away?
09:31<dih>MorgyN: have you also searched the forums?
09:32<hylje>development stuff e.g. patches are expected to be done against the development source
09:32<@Belugas>MorgyN, the fact i'm not a network guru, that i lack time, that i wonder if you have addressed all the issues, that i have not yet seen anything (regarding my poor memory)
09:32<hylje>16 companies is OK but it's little use so long there's only 10 allowed clients
09:33<MorgyN>Belugas: There is a patch from 2007, but I'm looking at porting it up to current stable
09:33<dih>one would have to make a newgrf packet style approach for the udp packets about clients etc to increase the number
09:33<MorgyN>I'm just wondering what I could do to make it more likely to be adopted into trunk
09:34<Yexo>1) follow the coding style
09:34<hylje>dih: to be done with it one would need to do it in a generic way e.g. up to 255 clients or more depending on compile options
09:34<hylje>dih: else it's just working around
09:34<Yexo>2) port it to the current trunk, not the latest stabgle
09:34<Yexo>3) what hylje says :p
09:34<dih>hylje: the UDP packets will get the server to assert as soon as you have more than 11 clients
09:34<dih>as all client details are stuffed into one packet
09:35<hylje>that's part of the problem
09:35<dih>the newgrf details are done differently
09:35<dih>the info packet contains a list of id's => md5sums of used newgrfs
09:35<orudge>dih: if you want to go and rank them all, sure. You've only got nearly 700,000 to look through :PO
09:35<@Belugas>MorgyN, that's what i said when talking about all the issues
09:35<@Belugas>simply reviving a patch is not enough
09:36<dih>you request id=>md5sum from server and get the name from as many will fit into the packet
09:36<orudge>I did consider setting up a thing for #tycoon osme time ago
09:36<@Belugas>if it was good enough, it would have been intergrated
09:36<orudge>so in theory that could be extended to here, and even to forum posts
09:36<orudge>but that involves effort
09:36<dih>orudge: users may rank?
09:36<@Belugas>if it's not , it could very well be becasue it was not right yet
09:36<orudge>dih: well, if I were to set up such a thing, yes
09:38<dih>well - it's silly to invest the time if phpbb does not offer that feature (or has a plugin for such things)
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09:41<MorgyN>Ahh I did forget about the network announce.
09:41<@Belugas>MorgyN, you can still, if you wish, bring it to trunk, that would not be a waste.
09:41<@Belugas>if you can improve it, it would be even better
09:42<@Belugas>but as TrueBrain said, maybe the best way would be to remove any limits
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09:42<@Belugas>just that i find it a bit hard to achieve...
09:42<@Belugas>to be honest...
09:42<MorgyN>I don't believe more than 64 is possible
09:42<dih>the network packets show an issue in this
09:42<MorgyN>without MAJOR revisions to the code.
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09:43<Yexo>well, 64 is already a huge step forward from 8
09:43<@Belugas>problem with limits, there is always someone who asks for more...
09:43<MorgyN>I think 64 companies on even a 2048^2 map would be fairly crowded soon =)
09:44<@Belugas>every structure in trunk that identifies a player will need to be upgraded from 8 to 64
09:44<hylje>limits are always there, the point is about making trivial to lift them to above hardware limits
09:44<@Belugas>savegame conversion and all...
09:44<Yexo>MorgyN: just divide the map in 64 pieces, that way you have a 256^2 piece per company :)
09:45<dih>yay - i got water :-P
09:45<hylje>Yexo: also allows for clustering
09:45<hylje>Yexo: given one actually makes the stuff work together
09:45<MorgyN>as long as the 'new' code is unlimited
09:46<Yexo>hylje: that wasn't my intention, it was more to demonstrate that the crowding isn't that bad
09:46<MorgyN>but with a 64 limit for 'legacy' code
09:46<MorgyN>in the future I suppose with auditing the the code to remove limits would be possible.
09:46<hylje>MorgyN: e.g. conversion
09:46<Yexo>I'd like to see 64 AIs running on one map :p
09:46<hylje>Yexo: most of the map will be uninteresting to the players. there'll be crowded spots all over
09:47<hylje>the game needs a more complex collaboration/competition system for large amounts of players anyway
09:47<+glx>anyway there's only 16 company colors
09:47<@Belugas>but honestly, when i look at the current rate of servers VS players, i wonder truely about the usefullness of the feature...
09:47<@Belugas>that too :)
09:47<MorgyN>Hmm I'll try and book some free time to allocate to this, need to get it working before the 8th of august ideally =)
09:47<hylje>glx: 256 2-color liveries
09:48<dih>MorgyN: why is that?
09:48-!-glx [] has quit [Quit: bye]
09:48*dih waves
09:48<MorgyN>running an openttd tourney, and 16 people would be easier to do than 8s =)
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09:48<hylje>wb glx
09:49<dih>welcome back glx
09:49<+glx>oups wrong shortcut
09:49<joachim>does enabling some patches (small airports, multiple engine sets) break savegames in trunk or is it just my version? :)
09:49<@Belugas>that makes me think... maybe it would be good to make it so company colors are disabled when reaching that amount, or someting like that...
09:49<hylje>thank you my dear acronym expander
09:49<@Belugas>joachim: no, it should not
09:49<joachim>enabling after the game is started, that is
09:49<MorgyN>Belugas: so that all oposition were the same colour?
09:50<hylje>MorgyN: nah, forced 2-color i think
09:50<MorgyN>can you elaborate?
09:50<hylje>some newgrf support two color livery, that is two company colors
09:50<hylje>this may be extended to actual company colors in order to give a larger space of them
09:51<MorgyN>the 16^2 you mentioned before
09:51<MorgyN>got you
09:51<MorgyN>Did you mean that Belugas?
09:55<@Belugas>don't know, i have not followed everything you said all
09:57<@Belugas>if there are only 16 colours, you cannot have more than 16 companies
09:57<@Belugas>that makes sens
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09:57<@Belugas>how can the graphs will handle more companies then?
09:57<@Belugas>unless we're looking at some colour pattern, like dashed colors and all...
09:58<@Belugas>that would look stupid anyway
09:58<MorgyN>well for graphs you could abandon using the company colours, and just use a legend?
09:59<@Belugas>and the scheme that hylje mentionned does only work for vehicles. not available for companies
09:59<@Belugas>companies only have 16 colors available
09:59<@Belugas>those are specially coded colours
09:59<@Belugas>changing that would mean bobo
10:00<@Belugas>i think
10:00<@Belugas>ow if yo excuse me, i have work@work to do
10:00<MorgyN>well thatsbah i'm trying to avoid that =P
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10:09<dih>is there a up2date documentation of the coding style?
10:09<Yexo> ?
10:10<dih>is it up to date? :-P
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10:17<dih>welcome back Belugas
10:20<dih>what a lag :-P
10:21<@Belugas>what a JOB
10:22<MorgyN>boo jobs
10:23<@Belugas>boo to good cash???
10:24<Doorslammer|BRSet>MorgyN> Missing a b :P
10:25<ben_goodger>yay home business
10:25<MorgyN>I want the cash without the work =P
10:25<MorgyN>I can dream =(
10:27<dih>MorgyN: i pitty the fool :-P
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10:41<@Belugas>freaking double click feature...
10:41<@Belugas>doubling the financial results at closing the day :S
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10:54<dih>wrong button again glx? :-P
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10:54<+glx>no reboot after AV update
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14:20<Eddi|zuHause3>-> Topic
14:20<ln->Eddi|zuHause3: what?
14:20<@Bjarni>topic is up there ^
14:21<@Bjarni>you point at the clientlist
14:21<Eddi|zuHause3>no, i clearly point to the word "topic"
14:21<ln->Eddy|atHome3: i didn't know English Only even applies to names now.
14:22<ln->and nicks
14:23<@Bjarni>今晩は ln-さん
14:23<Eddi|zuHause3>who said i meant the "english only" part of the topic?
14:23<Yexo>Bjarni: is that utf-8?
14:24<hylje>Yexo: yes
14:24<hylje>i see kanji
14:24<@Bjarni>if you feel that you might have problems reading that then I suggest that you pay attention to the topic ;)
14:24<ln->who said i meant that you meant the "english only" part?
14:24<@Bjarni>err @ln-
14:24<Eddi|zuHause3>clearly, the guys who invented the cyrillic alphabet were idiots :p
14:25<ln->Not necessarily, the cyrillic letters are very compact for writing e.g. certain names.
14:25<@Bjarni>I was told by a Russian that they wanted an alphabet and sent out two guys to get one from Europe where they already used one. They paid a fortune for a complete set of letters made out of wood and headed home
14:26<Eddi|zuHause3>that is obvious when you have letters that mean "schtsch"
14:26<Eddi|zuHause3>that some words get shorter ;)
14:26<@Bjarni>on the way home they dropped the letters and they broke. Instead of declaring their mission a failure they decided to fix the letters to make them look like what they could remember them to look like
14:26<@Bjarni>clearly they didn't have a good memory of what they looked like
14:27<ln->compare "Tschetschenien" and "Чечня" for example.
14:27<@Bjarni>this story is so stupid that it could be true. It would certainly explain why R got inverted
14:27<ln->or "Bjarni" and "Бярни"
14:27<@Bjarni>they also mixed up which sound belongs to which letter
14:27<+glx>щ <-- that's schtsch
14:27<Eddi|zuHause3>i know ;)
14:28<@Bjarni>Бярни <-- looks more like brphn to me :P
14:28<@Bjarni>bRpHN is more like it
14:29<MorgyN>DNND/D to me =P
14:30<eekee>\u0411\u044f\u0440\u043d\u0438 to me. stupid Darwin
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14:32<@Belugas>can't thik straight
14:32<@Belugas>need coffee
14:33<Noldo>I didn't know coffee deficency induced gay thoughts
14:34<MorgyN>does it work in reverse too?
14:34<@Bjarni>I don't think so
14:35<@Bjarni>certain people have been trying to cure homosexuals through time... none of them figured out how to do it so I don't think something as simple as coffee can do it
14:35<@Bjarni>doctors used to drug homosexuals to see which drug would make them prefer women instead
14:36<@Bjarni>the result was spaced out homosexual men
14:36<MorgyN>still loving the cock?
14:36<@Bjarni>who ended up living in an imaginary world
14:36<@Bjarni>then they declared that those drugs wouldn't do humanity any good
14:38<@Belugas>funny... there are still people who think homosexuality is a disease... in the 21th century, what's more :(
14:38<ln->Noldo: now look what you have done.
14:38<@Belugas>sad sad sad
14:38<@Bjarni>I think it would be possible since everything going on in the body is chemical mixtures and concentrations that controls everything. However we have no clue to what controls the preferred gender
14:39<@Belugas>or even a disorder...
14:39<@Bjarni>meaning it could be cheaper to build a colony on the moon rather than figuring out how this is controlled
14:40<Noldo>ln-: and with such a lame joke, unbeliveable
14:40<@Bjarni>this is IRC
14:42<@Bjarni>personally I think there are more important parts of the body that should be explored and understood before investigating the sex drive
14:45<joachim>Bjarni: actually a recent study gave them a clue
14:46<@Bjarni>if you can :p
14:48<joachim>think it had something to do with an enlarged left or right brain
14:50<@Bjarni>oh that
14:50<@Bjarni>enlarged left should prefer women and equal sized sides should prefer men
14:50<@Bjarni>or so they claim
14:50<@Bjarni>but they have no idea why
14:50<joachim>something like that
14:51<@Bjarni>the really big question is: is whatever controls the sexuality controlling the brain size or the other way around
14:52<@Bjarni>or is it a random thing that there is a connection?
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14:52<@Bjarni>I mean is it by random that they ended up with this result and would they get a different result if they test other people?
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14:52<joachim>and why would brain size control anything directly...
14:53<Eddi|zuHause3>i think you misunderstand correlation for causality
14:53<@Bjarni>no I don't
14:54<joachim>oh seems the brain size wasn't the only finding
14:55<@Bjarni>I know some theory on how to try to get rid of uncertainty. However I also know that when applying "a filter" (forgot the actual name for this) you decide on some parameters and stuff... and it's not uncommon to set the parameters to get a result that you like
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14:56<Eddi|zuHause3>it's called "do not trust a statistics that you did not fake yourself"
14:56<@Bjarni>this is quite common. Take for instance an opinion poll. The same answers can give the same party 14% with one set of parameters and 13,% with another set
14:56<@Bjarni>*13,5 (not that it matters much with the actual number here)
14:57<@Bjarni>bbl dinner
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14:59<joachim>well, 90 people is not a large enough sample to prove anything
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15:05<ln->what does an expression like "x = (y, 2);" mean in C?
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15:06<Yexo>ln-: it assigns 2 to x
15:06<ln->so it does, but does y mean anything?
15:06<Yexo>it is executated, so if y is acutally a function call, the function is called and the return value discarded
15:08<ln->and is this somehow useful in some context?
15:08<Yexo>nothing I can think off right now
15:09<Yexo>it's good to know it can and what is does, but in general, you don't need it yourself
15:11<TiberiusTeng>never #define y {DoSomethingReallyEvil(); blah(); z++/x--*w; }
15:11<Yexo>lol :p
15:11<TiberiusTeng>but it's still better than C++ ... where you don't even sure if operator=() really do assignment
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15:12<TiberiusTeng>one of my friend once overloaded operator/() to do vector dot product .........
15:13<Yexo>ok, that is confusing, but overloading operator+ for vector addition can be quite usefull
15:13<Yexo>not actually usefull, as a function call could do the same, but you can get cleaner code by applying it logically
15:13<TiberiusTeng>now I see x=(y,2) I would think that x is a tuple now (Pythonic :p)
15:14<Yexo>without context, I'd say the same, but in C, no :)
15:15<TiberiusTeng>yep :P
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15:46<fjb>Where in the code do the original grfs get loaded?
15:47<@Belugas>dunno the lines tough
15:47<Eddi|zuHause3>i'd have said gfxinit, but what do i know :p
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15:48<fjb>Ok, I didn't find it. Will have a second look.
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15:52<@Belugas>mmh... was I wrong?
15:52*Belugas checks
15:52<Ammler>fjb: grep for the trg* files and follow :-)
15:53<Eddi|zuHause3>well, i grepped for, and this file popped up, but it appears that only checks the validity of the files by MD5
15:53<Eddi|zuHause3>not actually load them
15:55<fjb>Belugas: newgrf.cpp initializes the structures. But I don't see where the files get actually loaded.
15:56<fjb>Eddi|zuHause3: gfxinit decides if it uses DOS or Windows palette.
15:56*lobstar advertises LOBSTER MEGAMIX RADIO:
15:56<lobstar>BOMG LIEK
15:57<fjb>My idea was to change the palette of the original DOS grfs to the windows palette on loading. So that every custom grf would have to be the windows version independent of the the version of the original grfs.
15:59<frosch123>poor dos palette, though it is so much nicer and also includes 3 colors more
16:00<fjb>But almost all grfs are using the windows palette. And some grfs are availlable onle in the windows version.
16:00<@Belugas>not sure at 100%, but i think LoadNewGRFFile in newgrf.cpp does the trick, fjb. Place a breakpoint and check the c->filename
16:01<frosch123>fjb: It is not always the best, that becomes standard :p
16:01<@Belugas>i can't dwelve any further, as i am still at work
16:01<fjb>frosch123: You don't have to tell me... :(
16:02<frosch123>But if you want to convert the colors, you have to hack the spriteloader in, well, "spriteloader" :p
16:02<fjb>But what do you think about my idea?
16:02<Prof_Frink>fjb: Of course, in The Future, everything'll be 32bpp and shiny
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16:02<fjb>Prof_Frink: I think about the near future...
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16:05<Eddi|zuHause3>32bpp doesn't even touch the palette problem
16:07<ln->Bjarni: how was your Nestlé dinner?
16:07<@Bjarni>I didn't have any
16:12<@Belugas>fjb, it's an idea. we have discussed about doing it a while ago.
16:12<@Belugas>just that nobody volunteered
16:12<@Belugas>looks like you did :)
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16:18<fjb>Belugas: If I'm able to understand the code.
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16:28*Belugas goes home. freakingly tired
16:28<@Belugas>night all
16:29<fjb>Good night Belugas.
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16:30<lobster>iTunes is Now playing: Volbeat - Rock The Rebel / Metal The Dev - Sad man's tongue
16:30<lobster>ON LOBSTER Z.RADIO:
16:30<lobster>(not an advertisement, Bjarni)
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18:30<Ammler>fjb: the usage of different grfs does also block the others from joining a MP server, so something in this direction would be very cool.
18:31<Ammler>I wish you luck to find a solution :-)
18:33<Yexo>Ammler: even if fjb succeeds, the md5 sums of will still not match, so you still need exactly the same grfs
18:33<Ammler>but then someone with dos original can load windows newgrfs :-)
18:33<Yexo>but still it would be usefull because all grf authors can just publish only the windows version
18:34<Yexo>and that too :)
18:34<+glx>Yexo: they can't because ttdpatch
18:34<Yexo>always that ttdpatch :p
18:34<Sacro>Yexo: no you don't
18:34<Ammler>well, they do already
18:34<Sacro>open source :p
18:34<Yexo>ok, so why exactly is it usefull then?
18:34<Sacro>just *cough* edit the code
18:35<fjb>But some authors are already publishing only the windows version.
18:35<Ammler>"dos users" should be able to convert... self.
18:35<Yexo>Sacro: wha tI ment was that they didn't have to go through the trouble to create two versions, but I forgot ttdpatch, so it'll still be needed
18:37<fjb>Ammler: Not everybody is able to to it. And some GRF lincence explicitly forbid to change the grf in anyway or even use grfcodec on it.
18:37<Ammler>is it possible and legal to convert original dos grfs to windows?
18:37<+glx>possible probably, legal no
18:37<fjb>Possible? I think so. Legal: I don't think so.
18:38<Ammler>then that alternative is gone, fjb, I hope you find something :-)
18:38<Yexo>legal depends on the country you're in, and if you're publishing the converted version or converting just for your own use
18:38<Prof_Frink>Legal: If you just distribute tools and not the converted files, maybe.
18:38<fjb>Ammler: I'm not sure that I'm understanding C++ and the OpenTTD source well enough.
18:39<Yexo>isn't converting already possible with grfcodec?
18:39<+glx>the tool exists, it's grfcodec
18:39<Ammler>Yexo: it is
18:39<Ammler>but wasn't sure, if it is for original grfs too.
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18:40<Ammler>does it generate exactly the same grf?
18:40<Yexo>that was exactly why I was asking ;p
18:41<+glx>you can change the palette easily (like you do when encoding a newgrf)
18:41<Ammler>I thought, there are some other differences as the palette
18:41<Ammler>but I might have thought about TTO-TTD
18:42<+glx>dos grf contains less sprites than win grf
18:42<Ammler>so a converted grf wouldn't match the md5sum :-)
18:42<Ammler>of the windows grf
18:42<+glx>of course
18:43<Ammler>of course?
18:44<+glx>md5sum will be different
18:47<dih>add a file for md5sum override...
18:47<dih>old_md5sum => new_md5sum
18:47<dih>a very advanced feature for the config :-P
18:48<Ammler>don't think converting will be a alternative...
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19:02<dih>pegasus, the guy coding the multiplayer gui is not on irc, is he?
19:03<lobster>HE IS
19:04<dih>now - wehere is _that_ a irc channel?
19:06<dih>lobster, you make like no sense! :-P
19:06-!-NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@] has quit [Quit:]
19:06<lobster>dih: o rly ;)
19:06<Eddi|zuHause3>and that is news to you, dih? :p
19:06*dih slaps lobster for not fitting in with the last part of the topic
19:07<lobster>iTunes is Now playing: Yob - Catharsis - Catharsis
19:07<lobster>IF THATS NOT RADIO
19:07<lobster>GOOD RADIO
19:07*lobster dances about
19:08<dih>oh - sorry - it was peter1138 who had set that part of the topic :-P
19:08<dih>the 'no idiots' part
19:09<lobster>pffft, peter1138 even tuned in to my radio this very evening
19:09<lobster>so i guess i'm not Draakon-style idiotic
19:09<dih>does not mean someone is not acting like an idiot in an irc channel
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19:19<Yexo>hmm, is there any automated way to get the version (revision) of an openttd exe under windows?
19:27<dih>openttd.exe --version ?
19:28<Sacro>does that work at last/
19:28<dih>well --help will give you the version in the first line
19:28<Sacro>that's a no then
19:28<dih>Sacro, no, --version does not exist...
19:28<Sacro>can we have --version spitting out *just* the version
19:28<Sacro>cos it'd be damned useful
19:28<dih>that would be handy
19:28<Sacro>you are an op :p
19:28<Sacro>off you go
19:28<dih>who is?
19:29<dih>i just make patches every once in a while
19:29<Sacro>seems not
19:29*Sacro prods Belugas
19:29<dih>he's off
19:29<dih>past is best before time
19:29*Sacro prods Rubidium
19:29<dih>perhaps glx?
19:30<Sacro>or peter1138
19:30<Sacro>lets highlight them all
19:30<dih>heh - that's an easy one - but i wont do it :-P
19:32<dih>according to the code --version exists
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19:33<Yexo>dih: openttd --help works fine, but it gives a dialog box, and doesn't print in the console (at least in all windows versions I compiled)
19:34<dih>well - according to strgen/strgen.cpp there is a --version and -v
19:34-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:34<dih>yet it does not seem to work...
19:34<Yexo>dih: -v is for setting a video driver
19:35<Sacro>that needs changing to -vo
19:35<Sacro>with -ao for audio
19:35<Sacro>-v should be version
19:35<Yexo> according to strgen/strgen.cpp there is a --version and -v <- that's the code for strgen, so ./strgen --version will work :p
19:36<dih>oh - right :-P
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19:38<+glx>Yexo: you can use to get output in the console
19:38<Yexo>glx: I'd like to do it in a script in the command line, and for all nigthlies, but it seems that's not possible
19:39<+glx>and you also need a debug build or start with -d
19:45<dih>Sacro: it's not -ao for audio driver :-P
19:45<Sacro>it should be
19:45<dih>it's -s
19:45<dih>and -m for music
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19:46<Sacro>dih: s and m eh
19:46<dih>there there are only single letter opts
19:46<dih>Sacro, you have a one tracked mind :-S
19:46<Sacro>dih: yes
19:47<dih>well - i know have -V or version ... but that sucks
19:48<lobster>iTunes is Now playing: Botch - Botch - Unifying Themes Redux - The opera song
19:48<lobster>still on unspammy lobster tadio
19:48*Sacro is now playing: Bill Bailey - Dr. Qui
19:49<dih>lobster, you are most annoying...
19:49<dih>_most_ annoying
19:49<Sacro>dih: compared to draakon?
19:49*Yexo is turning his music off, because I'm going to bed. Night all
19:49<dih>draakon is annoying and an idiot
19:49<dih>lobster so far as more proven to be annoying only... he does not say much else anyway
19:49-!-fjb [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:50<dih>night Yexo
19:51<lobster>dih: quite, for i have the OTTD channel not as a regular place to share my deepest of secrets
19:51<lobster>merely as a place to ask about OTTD and spam when deejay the infamous
19:51<dih>yes - but the music you listen to is not interesting to any other person here
19:52<lobster>then again, you probably are the type of person to find Dave Worley offensive and/or annoying
19:52<lobster>oh, is it not?
19:52<lobster>i highly doubt that
19:52<dih>do you know
19:52<dih>good thing there are ignore lists :-P
19:53<lobster>otherwise i'd never get rid of good old yorick, and you of me
19:54<dih>much better ;-)
19:54<dih>toolbar_gui.cpp:523: warning: enumeral mismatch in conditional expression: 'ToolbarScenEditorWidgets' vs 'ToolbarNormalWidgets' <-- heh
19:54<dih>and on line 533 also...
19:56<+glx>dih: known
19:56<dih># bin/openttd -V
19:58<+glx>I'm sure it won't work on windows because it's not a console app
19:59-!-elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:00<dih>you mean printf does not work on windows?
20:00<+glx>it prints in the application console
20:01<+glx>only if the application opened it
20:02<dih>dont you just hate windows -P
20:02<dih>and dont you just hate it if your smily lacks a few eyes
20:02<+glx>I don't know why they did it that way
20:02<dih>is there no way of sending text to the command line?
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20:03<+glx>not without being a console app
20:04<dih>but it would be possible if openttd.exe was run from the cmd?
20:04<+glx>you can't detect that
20:04<dih>you can read my mind :-P
20:04<dih>what happens if i printf without it being a console app?
20:04<+glx>and the console/non-console thing is a byte in PE header
20:05<+glx>nothing happens
20:05<dih>then that is fine, is it not?
20:07<dih>as if it did display to the console, and it was not run from the console, the console would close that quickely, that one could not read it anyway :-P
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20:10<+glx>I don't see a real need for it as you can parse openttd -h output
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20:16<+glx>openttd.exe -h 2>&1 | awk '/OpenTTD/ { print $2; }'
20:16<+glx>same effect
20:16<Ammler>./openttd -h | grep OpenTTD | cut -b 9-
20:16<dih>glx: ok ;-)
20:17<dih>Yexo, there you have it :-P
20:17<+glx>Ammler: yours miss 2>&1 ;)
20:18<Ammler>oh, Yexo is porting autostart to windows
20:18<Ammler>a tool we use for autoupdate/join the server
20:20<+glx>it should already work on windows, but it needs convert.exe
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20:20<+glx>maybe I should add options to convert.exe so it doesn't toggle console/window mode
20:21<Ammler>why not running openttd as console app anyway?
20:22<+glx>because you then always have 2 windows open
20:22<+glx>debug build and openttd -d "acts" like a console app without being a console app
20:23<+glx>a console app always open a console window if not started from cmd
20:24<Ammler>well then, indeed bad.
20:25<Ammler>this will also happen, if you start it from mingw?
20:25<+glx>well if it's a console app started from bash it won't open a console
20:26<Ammler>and if it no console app, the output won't go to the console.
20:26<+glx>it will open a console window
20:26<Ammler>a debug console?
20:27<+glx>hmm sometimes it just segfault ;)
20:29<+glx>ok when started from sh it doesn't open a console window
20:29<+glx>but it segfault if stdout and stderr are not redirected
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20:32<Ammler>just tried in VM XP
20:32<Ammler>with ./openttd.exe -d
20:32<Ammler>works like in linux
20:32<+glx>in bash?
20:33<+glx>debug or release build?
20:33<dih>release build with -d ? :-P
20:33<Ammler>bottd newgrf_port branach
20:33<Ammler>how does bottd compile?
20:34<+glx>release I think
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20:35<+glx>release build works but segfault with -d
20:35<+glx>debug build always segfault
20:35<Ammler>hmm, not here
20:35<Ammler>well, didn't try with trunk
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20:51<Ammler>night dih
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21:09<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r13672 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Fix(r13670): silent warnings that MSVC did not raised. Looks like enums can not be easily matched :(
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21:25<ccfreak2k>Why Sun xVM?
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22:01<@Belugas>ccfreak2k ?
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23:52<|Thorn|>Hey - weird thing here
23:53<|Thorn|>What does it mean if
23:53<|Thorn|>When a plane/train etc reaches it's destination and unloads
23:53<|Thorn|>The little floating money numbers are in yellow
23:53<|Thorn|>And the profit is not counted at all?
23:57<|Thorn|>losing all the money because of it -.-
23:59<Yexo>you're using the tranfer option
---Logclosed Thu Jul 03 00:00:11 2008