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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-03

---Logopened Thu Jul 03 00:00:11 2008
---Daychanged Thu Jul 03 2008
00:00<Yexo>don't use transfer as long as you don't understand what it does
00:00<|Thorn|>Ok, told him that - thanks
00:06<|Thorn|>and in comes the millions of pounds
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04:56<TiberiusTeng>planetmaker, here ?
04:57<dih>he's connected to the bouncer... all i can tell ya :-P
04:57<planetmaker>moin, he's here - sort of :)
04:57<planetmaker>what's up, TiberiusTeng?
04:58<TiberiusTeng>I'm tracing a bug possibly in IS patch
04:58<planetmaker>uh... right. Please tell me :)
04:58<TiberiusTeng>seems it triggered an assert() in GetTileOwner
04:58<planetmaker>hm... Can you give me a savegame and crash log?
04:59<TiberiusTeng>assert(!IsTileType(tile, MP_HOUSE));
04:59<planetmaker>hm... but houses are not queried afaik in IS...
04:59<TiberiusTeng>it's from someone who playing with my patchpack :~
05:00<TiberiusTeng>so I wonder if it's useful or not -- it's attached at the last post of TibPP thread.
05:00<planetmaker>ok, I'll have a look at :)
05:00<TiberiusTeng>I'm still trying to figure out what kind of tile is it :P
05:01<TiberiusTeng>hmm, wait, the TileIndex is out of bound :(
05:01<planetmaker>IIRC though, isTileType(tile, ...) is queried for station types and track only
05:01<TiberiusTeng>SharedAirports is called with TileIndex 0 ... ouch.
05:02<TiberiusTeng>sorry, doesn't look like an IS bug after all ...
05:03<planetmaker>np :)
05:03<dih>TiberiusTeng: :-P
05:03<planetmaker>better an alarme too much than passing a critical error :)
05:04<TiberiusTeng>got a null pointer to a vehicle, that's bad
05:04<planetmaker>he... the ghost vehicle. :P
05:04<planetmaker>destroyed? Canceled built?
05:06<TiberiusTeng>from a FOR_ALL_VEHICLES() loop calling v->Tick() ? No way :P
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05:17<TiberiusTeng>now it's strange
05:17<TiberiusTeng>there's a station with airport + bus station
05:17<TiberiusTeng>but the station name plate is not on a station tile ................
05:17<TiberiusTeng>and I can't find the bus station tile
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05:18<dih>the joys
05:21<TiberiusTeng>I build a truck loading bay at the station name plate tile, and it worked .......................
05:21<TiberiusTeng>now I wonder ... shouldn't the station name plate "move" with the station, if someone removes the station tile below it?
05:22<Noldo>why would it need to?
05:25<TiberiusTeng>to make owner checking, distance calcuations etc. work
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05:27<Noldo>how is the owner check done?
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05:32<Noldo>can you give the filename where to find it too
05:32<TiberiusTeng>use grep, man ...
05:33<TiberiusTeng>the tile below station nameplate in the savegame is actually MP_HOUSE, that's scary ...
05:33<Noldo> doesn't have it ;)
05:34<TiberiusTeng>don't directly trace the code on, you'll not only slow yourself, but also slow everyone who wish to checkout/pull from it ;)
05:35<Noldo>in addtion my grep skills are gone
05:35<TiberiusTeng>so do a checkout, then use grep or Alt+F12 in Visual Studio to do this, it's much more easier ...
05:35<dih>grep is fun ;-)
05:36<Noldo>I'd rather ssh home and grep there
05:39<Noldo>it tries to find station owner that way?
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05:44<TiberiusTeng>yep, GetTileOwner() at the tile of station name plate
05:44<TiberiusTeng>well, at the tile of 'the station', which happens to display station name plate as well ...
05:50<Noldo>station struct contines Tile identity information which is used to display the name plate too?
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07:43<dih>it has gotten very commit-quiet around here...
07:48<Ammler>I know, why you would like one :-)
07:48<Sacro>dih: get commiting then
07:48<Ammler>but I guess, it lags at CIA
07:49<Yorick>hmm, some patches aren't always synced
07:49<Yorick>which causes a mass desync
07:49<Yorick>the max_roadveh and max_ships
07:49<Yorick>aren't synced to all players
07:49<Yorick>only to the 2 newest
07:50<dih>Sacro: what should i get, eh?
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07:50<Ammler>we do that quite often, never recognized...
07:50<@Rubidium>Yorick: in that case it should happen to *all* patch settings
07:50<Ammler>c<->g ?
07:51<Yorick>Rubidium, dunno, but it happens to plane_speed too
07:51<dih>what's that kid up to again?
07:51<Yorick>dih: he found a mass desync after changing a patch setting on the server
07:51<Yorick>that's what he did :)
07:51<@Rubidium>Yorick: what version are you using?
07:53<@Rubidium>I see absolutely no reason why other clients wouldn't get the update
07:55<Yorick>yet it does happen
07:55<Yorick>I changed max_roadveh, I could build new roadvehicles, everyone else couldn't
07:56<Yorick>I built one roadvehicle above the limit, and everyone desynced
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07:57<ln>ok, so
07:58<Yorick>but possibly it is the copy-paste patch the server is patched with...
07:58<ln>is there a minimum number of unique town names a name generator should generate?
07:58<dih>07:58<Yorick> but possibly it is the copy-paste patch the server is patched with... <- you silly boy!
07:59<Yorick>dih:'ve ignored me
07:59<Ammler>ln: afaik 70
07:59<Ammler>(if I get you right :-)
07:59<ln>Ammler: is it known how many of the generators achieve that number?
08:00<@Rubidium>what more patches do the clients/servers have?
08:01<dih>Rubidium: he probably is having issues on a wwottdgd build or something :-P
08:01<@Rubidium>Yorick: what more patches do the clients/servers have?
08:02<Yorick>admin control system
08:02<Yorick>but nothing more
08:02<@Rubidium>and does that have a diff?
08:03<ln>what would YOU think about this patch:
08:03<Yorick>but it doesn't change anything in patches
08:04<dih>use printf and something else if on a windows system
08:04<dih>(cannot remember what the function is called)
08:04<dih>or das ShowOSErrorBox include 'printf' incase fun from a dedicated server?
08:05<Ammler>ln: sorry, I was speaking about how big a list should be, if you like to make a "real name grf".
08:06<Ammler>I have no idea, how those generators do function... :-)
08:06<ln>dih: i'm counting on ShowOSErrorBox doing something sensible depending on the environment.
08:06<Ammler>and since you can add town names with GRFs, it doesn't really matter :-)
08:07<dih>ln: i was thinking of how ShowHelp in openttd.cpp does it
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08:07<Ammler>ln: what ugly thing can you do, if you start openttd as root?
08:08<ln>Ammler: who knows. i doubt the source code has ever been thoroughly auditioned from the security perspective.
08:08<dih>i second that
08:09<dih>alone the fact that you can cd and ls
08:09<flowOver>like in windows?
08:09<flowOver>where everything is ran as admin
08:09<dih>do that with a dedicated server...
08:09<dih>flowOver: YAY
08:09<ln>the point is, OpenTTD doesn't need root priviledges for anything, and if a vulnerability is found, it'll be even more dangerous for those running as root.
08:10<Ammler>but why should someone start a server as root?
08:10<ln>Ammler: because some people prefer to do everything as root.
08:10<@Rubidium>ln: thenn why does Apache require root; it doesn't necessarily need it anyway
08:11<Poopsmith>some people are silly if they do everything as root
08:11<flowOver>aww -runs windows-
08:11<ln>Rubidium: it needs root for binding to port 80, after which it drops the priviledges.
08:11<Ammler>is there another app, which forbidds starting as root?
08:11<flowOver>i'm silly
08:11<ln>Rubidium: or are you saying that Apache requires root permissions even if you choose to run it on a port >1024?
08:11<@Rubidium>ln: but can redirect 80 to 1080 and then apache doesn't need root
08:12<dih>Rubidium: if the port is > 1024 it does not require root
08:12<dih>slow reading some stuff today :-P
08:12<ln>ok, so is there a need to run OTTD on ports <= 1024 on *nix platforms?
08:13<@Rubidium>dih: my whole *point* is that you could argue that apache should enforce it not being started as root when port > 1024
08:13<dih>but apache changes to another user/group after that process
08:13<dih>openttd does not
08:13<ln>Rubidium: that's a bit different, because Apache _starts_ as root, but effectively _runs_ as a normal user.
08:14<dih>08:03<Yorick> but... <- no but! run with clean trunk, then come back! :-P
08:14<ln>while OpenTTD does not attempt to drop the root priviledges it may have, afaik.
08:14<@Rubidium>drop to what?
08:14<Yorick>dih: on clean trunk I don't have 11 clients all over the world
08:15<Yorick>ln: doesn't appache fire multiple selfs?
08:15<@Rubidium>Yorick: no, you got lots of clients with unknown patched binaries, which makes it even worse
08:16<Ammler>Yorick: we have it quite often at coop...
08:16<@Rubidium>seriously... a patch setting only updated on 2! of the clients and not the others means that some binaries differ from other binaries
08:16<ln>Rubidium: drop to a non-root user specified in a config file, for example.
08:16<Yorick>Ammler, tell rubidium :)
08:16<Ammler>but never realized that desync :-)
08:16<dih>i spy with my little eye ^
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08:17<@Rubidium>ln: if someone wants to run as root, they should be able to do so, even if it is stupid
08:18<@Rubidium>or should we stop starting OpenTTD if you don't have the latest security "updates" installed?
08:18<dih>14:16 <@Rubidium> seriously... a patch setting only updated on 2! of the clients and not the others means that some binaries differ from other binaries <-- should not be too hard to test with clean versions
08:18<MorgyN>why would someone run openttd on a port <1024 =/
08:18<Yorick>dih: I can't reproduce the problem
08:18<@Rubidium>because their ISP only allows port 80?
08:18<dih>perhaps they hope it has a neat webserver integrated to show the game details on a website :-P
08:18<MorgyN>only? but won't that be tcp only then, not udp
08:18<Yorick>but ammler got it quite often, and he runs clean trunk
08:19<ln>Rubidium: ok, here's a patch for you: (feel free to commit)
08:19<Ammler>Yorick: you missunderstood
08:20<Ammler>I meant, we have many time many or even max visitors on our ps, but never realized a desync because of changing the max vehicles.
08:20<@Rubidium>ln: what sense in the world does that patch make besides making people angry because OTTD doesn't start?
08:20<Yorick>no, but you have unsynced patches?
08:21<@Rubidium>those stupid people are going to start something else that is equally or even more stupid
08:21<ln>Rubidium: well anyway, if someone wants to run as root, he can comment out the lines and proceed.
08:21<@Rubidium>so the effect is annoying stupid people
08:21<dih>if openttd supported --long-options you could have a flat --force-root
08:22<Yorick>Rubidium: hmm, I also have the invisibility gui cherrypicked
08:22<dih>Rubidium: rather have the game annoy stupid people, than stupid people annoy you
08:22*dih looks at Yorick
08:22*Yorick looks away
08:24<@Rubidium>Yorick: yes, that one looks broken
08:25<@Rubidium>that one will cause your mentioned desync
08:25<Yorick>well it only changes gui patches...
08:26<Yorick>possibly I should keep the invisible trees patch there?
08:26<Yorick>but why didn't it affect everyone then?
08:27<dih>one would assume people get why one does not file bug reports for patched versions
08:27<@Rubidium>because the patch indices got totally screwed up
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08:29<Yorick>afaik the invisible trees patch isn't saved with the save
08:30<@Rubidium>does it change the index of max_trains in the patch array?
08:31<Yorick>there you got a point
08:32*Yorick thanks rubishium :)
08:32<dih>actually this was kinda amusing...
08:33<ln>Rubidium: 14:58 < ln> is there a minimum number of unique town names a name generator should generate?
08:34<@Rubidium>creating the other few hundred to thousands towns will go dead and dead slow after the first town
08:34<Yorick>one should filter "sadhattan" out of it
08:35<Ammler>Yorick: NewGRF!
08:35<Ammler>Yorick: dear patcher, I would like a GRF, which copies the names from NewGRF to the map. (save)
08:36<Yorick>ask santa
08:36*Yorick forwards Ammler's letter to santa
08:37<Ammler>I guess, you could patch it better then him, he has already to handle the list about you. :-P
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08:48<Yorick># is it me you're looking for
08:49*dih waves hello with his ignore list :-P
08:49<Yorick># I can see it in your eyes
08:49<Yorick># I can see it in your smile
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08:57<nairan>could it be CIA dont work?
08:58<@Belugas>why asking that nairan?
08:58<Yorick>the commit silence
08:59<nairan>umm k.
08:59<Yorick>but it does work
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09:00<@Belugas>let say, nairan, that there is very little that do get commited since real life is involved :)
09:01<@Belugas>plus, my stuff is not available yet, as i still fail on a major problem.
09:01<dih>so less commits = good and healthy devers life
09:01<dih>more commits = life is shite
09:02<@Belugas>if only it was diver life instead of dever :S
09:03<dih>devers live = the developers life
09:04<@Belugas>i know, dih, i know...
09:15<nairan>nah just wondered if cia is broke.
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09:16<nairan>i dont wanna damage your health devs
09:16<nairan>you already did a great job.
09:16<dih>nearly every user does :-P
09:16<dih>emphasis on _user_
09:16<ln>do you think cia drank his money, or what?
09:16<ln>or gambled?
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09:17<Yorick>dih: your move patch doesn't check if the company really exitst, so I got half the money available to spend on a nonexistent company :)
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause2>lmao :p
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10:14<Eddi|zuHause2> <ln> is there a minimum number of unique town names a name generator should generate? <- 2048^2 map and very many towns should be around 2000-3000 towns
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10:18<MorgyN>2000 towns? damn
10:21<@Belugas>certification performed. now, the joy of annotating all the 86 slips
10:21<@Belugas>fun fun fun
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10:26<Yexo>Rubidium: only now I see commit 13664, fixing fs#2117. But that fs bug was closed because it was a duplicate of, so that one can be closed as well
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10:30<@Belugas>Yexo, 100% sure? no doubts?
10:31<Yexo>2117 was closed as duplicate, so if 2117 is fixed, 1976 should be fixed as well
10:31<Yexo>and the bug descriptions match
10:32<@Belugas>less a bug entry
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10:33<Yexo>only 47 to go :p
10:33<Eddi|zuHause2>save the bugs!
10:33<Eddi|zuHause2>they are a vital part of nature
10:34*Belugas sends all bugs he can find to Eddi|zuHause2
10:36<Eddi|zuHause2>well, you can assure a vivid population of bugs by commiting yapp :p
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10:39<dih>Eddi|zuHause2: lol
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11:28*Belugas listens to Sigur Rós - Popplagið
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11:53<@Belugas>Send the results now
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11:54<dih>Belugas: go go go!
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14:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13673 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2122]: desync when building electrified trains on a dedicated server that was started with electrification disabled.
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14:26<@Belugas>hello gwenael
14:27<gwenael>i find a bug in openttd but i don't find the report it in the flyspray ...
14:28<Yexo>gwenael: use "Add new task"
14:28<gwenael>Air incomes are not counted
14:28<Yexo>you are not using transfer orders accidentally?
14:28<gwenael>but the charges, yes
14:29<gwenael>uhuh, it's transfer orders...
14:29<Yexo>you don't get money for transfers, you get the money for the final delivery of the goods
14:30<gwenael>Yexo: thx :)
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14:35<xahodo>Hello, how can I tell whether a savegame is broken (other then openttd crasing on me)?
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14:35<tkz>anyone about who can sort out an annoying signal issue?
14:36<Yexo>what signal issue do you have?
14:37<tkz>I can't get the semaphores I want
14:37<tkz>and I can't for the life of me work out what Grf is changing it
14:37<Yexo>xahodo: post it somewhere on the internet so others can have a look at it
14:37<Yexo>tkz: what version are you using?
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14:37<tkz>Russian Patch Pack 1.2 - r13437
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14:38<Yexo>what kind of semaphores do you want to build?
14:38<Yexo>and what ones can you build?
14:38<tkz>I can build all
14:38<tkz>it's just they graphic isn't one I want
14:38<Eddi|zuHause2>type of semaphores depends on road traffic side and the patch setting "signals on road traffic side"
14:38<tkz>yeah, I thought that - I set it to Drive on the Left as I'm British
14:38<tkz>but it doesn't seem to have changed
14:39<tkz>I think I still have the Euro or other semaphore
14:39<Eddi|zuHause2>changed road side after creating the game?
14:40<tkz>created a new game
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14:42<Ammler>isn't there a patch wich doesn't support left side driving?
14:46<Eddi|zuHause2>what kind of patch do you mean?
14:47<xahodo>Well, here's the link to the savegame in question:
14:49<xahodo>Problem occurs when scrolling to somewhere around Treewood, New grondworth falls and Winningworth (when the savegame is active?)
14:49<xahodo>*active = unpaused
14:50<Eddi|zuHause2>xahodo: if it is from an official build, post it to
14:50<Eddi|zuHause2>if it is from a patched build, bad luck
14:51<xahodo>It's from an unpatched nightly.
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14:52<xahodo>And I'm not sure whether it's openttd or the save, no assertion just a crashing app.
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14:54<@Rubidium>xahodo: have you compiled the binary yourself?
14:55<xahodo>Just got it and put it in the usual place.
14:55<xahodo>want a crashdump from windows?
14:55<Yorick>got it where?
14:55<xahodo>From the openttd homepage.
14:55<@Rubidium>have you used autoreplace?
14:57<xahodo>yes, we have used autoreplace, but it should not be active atm.
14:59<@Rubidium>sounds like autoreplace might have trashed some internal information
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15:00<@Rubidium>anyhow, I can't be bothered to wait several minutes before I'm allowed to download your savegame
15:01<Yexo>Rubidium: try
15:01<xahodo>omg :S
15:01<Yexo>openttd crashes here too btw, even when the game is still in pause mode
15:03<xahodo>Should find some place decent to dump my files...
15:03<Yexo>xahodo: the link I posted is a copy of your file :)
15:04<Ammler>xahodo: use tt-forums or
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15:05<xahodo>Here's the crash report I've got:
15:06<Eddi|zuHause2>OR post them to the bug tracker like i told you...
15:07<Ammler>I guess, you have just missing GRFs
15:07<Ammler>it runs quite well here
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15:09<Ammler>possible, you are using other version of ISR?
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15:10<xahodo>Check in the area west from Treewood Central and Northwest in Peninghall Vally, it should crash around there somewhere.
15:10<xahodo>ISR = Industrial Station Renewal?
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15:11<Ammler>xahodo: yes
15:11<Ammler>and it doesn't :-)
15:12<xahodo>grf versions all seem to be fine.
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15:12<Ammler>no orange?
15:14<Yexo>strange, I just compiled a debug build and now it no longer crashes
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15:15<@Rubidium>seems like the savegame crashes on a broken sprite or so
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15:17<Ammler>Yexo: that sounds familiar in last time.
15:18<xahodo>Well, the dutch station set has some orange below the overpass... but that looks normal.
15:18<Eddi|zuHause2>he meant an orange icon before the grf name ;)
15:19<Ammler>xahodo: I meant in the GRF GUI, orange means other version of same GRF
15:19<Ammler>the little square beside the name.
15:19<Eddi|zuHause2>meaning "you do not have the exact same GRF, loaded other GRF with same ID"
15:19<xahodo>all green
15:19<Ammler>how do I see, if I have a debug build?
15:20<Eddi|zuHause2># mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm
15:20<Eddi|zuHause2># mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm
15:21<Eddi|zuHause2># aaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaa ahhaa
15:21*Prof_Frink teaches Eddi|zuHause2 the words
15:21<Eddi|zuHause2>welll that technically _is_ the text of the song ;)
15:22<Prof_Frink>(It's an instrumental)
15:22<Eddi|zuHause2>we know that you can't sing :p
15:22<xahodo>coffee break, brb
15:22<Yexo>Ammler: not sure how you see that from the binary (except for the size)
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15:22<Yexo>but you need to configure with --enable-debug=1 (or higher) to have debugging symbols for gdb
15:23<Ammler>3 mb is without
15:23<Ammler>4 is with?
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15:24<Ammler>then I can run that save with trunk without debug.
15:25<Yexo>not sure, my binary is 39mb
15:25<Ammler>depense on debug level?
15:25<Eddi|zuHause2>debug builds tend to be significantly bigger ;)
15:26<Yexo>don't think it matters much if you compile with --enable-debug=1 or with =2
15:26*Prof_Frink makes a rebugger
15:26<Yexo>what does that do? Reintroduce fixed bugs?
15:26<Prof_Frink>Takes source code, grabs random bits from old svn commits, applies and compiles
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15:36<@Rubidium>xahodo: could you make a bugreport with that savegame?
15:37<pugboy>Is there a specific place to get 32bpp tar files, or are they scattered?
15:37<xahodo>Rubidium: sure
15:37<pugboy>I can't seem t find one on the wiki
15:40<Yexo>the wiki main page links here:
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15:41<pugboy>Ok, thanks
15:41<Yexo>also see
15:41<pugboy>However, OpenTTD did not create a .cfg file, so I can't enable the blitter :/
15:41<Yexo>openttd does always create a .cfg file
15:42<Yexo>it just didn't create it in the directory where you expected it
15:42<Yexo>Have you tried My Documents/openttd ?
15:42<pugboy>There it is :)
15:44*Belugas sends tons of applauds to Yexo, who is doing a fine job of helping new comers :)
15:44<pugboy>I agree :)
15:45<Yexo>thx Belugas. Posting wiki links all the times seems to work fine :)
15:45<pugboy>I don't see a "blitter=" line in the config file though...
15:45<pugboy>Right, I should actually read the wiki :D
15:46<@Belugas>hehe... the message has been received ;)
15:48<xahodo>oh, one more detail: if it crashes using SDL windows produces no crashlog (at least the crash popup doesn't appear), but when GDI is used it does.
15:49<Yexo>you should add that to the bug report
15:49<HMage>xahodo: look out for stdout.txt and similar
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15:51<xahodo>HMage: where can I find those on windows?
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15:55<@Belugas>i guess i should remove my comment...
15:55<frosch123>segmentation fault on linux
15:57<HMage>xahodo: it's not windows specific, it's SDL-specific. These files should be in OpenTTD directory.
15:57<HMage>SDL reroutes console output there -- stdout.txt and stderr.txt
15:58<xahodo>Those files don't happen to be hidden, do they?
15:59<HMage>they shouldn't. If they're not there then don't bother.
15:59<xahodo>Sorry, no
15:59<HMage>I'm not dev, just trying to help you a little bit
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16:24<+glx>[21:48:37] <xahodo> oh, one more detail: if it crashes using SDL windows produces no crashlog (at least the crash popup doesn't appear), but when GDI is used it does. <-- crash.log is only for MSVC release builds
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16:30<Mirrakor>Hm.. I've got two airplanes which can land on a airport, but they don't unload passengers nor mail (on the next airport they fly to, they can) - Has this something to do with the size of the airport?
16:31<+glx>does the airport accepts them?
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16:35<@peter1138>ordered the aircraft to stop at the hangar?
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16:38<@Belugas>night all, /me goes to rest
16:41<Mirrakor>peter1138: maybe not..
16:42<Mirrakor>glx: no, the airport accepts nothing, that's weird - why is that so? Can't I drop them of to a bus station?
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause2><Mirrakor> Can't I drop them of to a bus station? <- no, that requires passenger destionations
17:27<Eddi|zuHause2>and ... that won't happen any time soon
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21:44<@Belugas>BORING !
21:44<eekee>oh ah
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 04 00:00:25 2008