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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-04

---Logopened Fri Jul 04 00:00:25 2008
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03:37<ln>the independence day of the world!
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03:42<eekee>happy independance day ln! XD;
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03:51<flowOver>We had independance day already in Canada. We're 3 days ahead right, because we're closer to the north pole
03:51<Poopsmith>and we don't have independance day
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05:34<Mirrakor>my train network is totally collapsing :D
05:35<eekee>ack :D
05:36<Mirrakor>what can I do if two(well. actually, there are a few more) trains crash into each other?
05:36<Mirrakor>Do I've to remove the rail there or how do I get them off the network
05:36<Mirrakor>actually I've them :D
05:36<eekee>oh they take a minute or so to go away
05:36<eekee>it's the cleanup time, I guess
05:37<Mirrakor>but somehow they got jammed up - I said to ignore the signal and one train couldn't help it but to drive right into the next one
05:37<eekee>ya very tricky dealing with gridlock
05:37<eekee>I hold my breath & almost pray every time :)
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05:38<Mirrakor>on the other hand - I can buy new trains now :)
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05:43<Eddi|zuHause3>the safest way to deal with a gridlock is building a depot
05:44<Doorslammer|BRSet>Who killed the forum? :P
05:45<eekee>now why did I never think of that
05:47<Doorslammer|BRSet>Hmmm, works now
05:47<Doorslammer|BRSet>Good work everyone ;)
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06:02<SpComb> <-- heh, that's rather amusing
06:03<SpComb>someone's abusing the networking code, presumeably wrote some custom code to do that
06:06<ln->don't worry, it's still completely safe to run a server as root..
06:08<MorgyN>if you are mad
06:09<MorgyN>if you absolutely have to run it on a unprivilidged port... dnat with iptables =P
06:09<dih>ln-: )
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06:14<blathijs>But, there are actually spambots that target OpenTTD? Cool :-D
06:16<dih>it's some kiddo that does it by hand
06:17<blathijs>Or probably semi-automated
06:17<blathijs>Once spambots start join games just to be able to spam, we know that our userbase is getting too big :-p
06:20<SpComb>indeed, and I'm wondering how long it'll take until someone finds a remote-code-execution vulnerability in OpenTTD
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06:21<Noldo>who has commit access, hide it into today's nigthly
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06:21<SpComb>meh, I'm sure the codebase is large enough that there's already enough bugs to be found
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06:22<SpComb>stuff that only happens with malformed data, not normal data generated by OpenTTD itself - so one wouldn't notice it normally
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06:28<@peter1138>fairly unlikely
06:29<@peter1138>all command data is checked for validity (in theory)
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06:33<Eddi|zuHause3>i remember someone called "test" here that looked for all kinds of buffer overflows and stuff
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08:12<Ammler><SpComb> [12:02:30] <-- heh, that's rather amusing <-- TiberiusTeng did once ask at the forum, you should ask him, if he got answer.
08:13<Ammler>(the "spamer" is a chinese forum, afaik)
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08:19<dih>Ammler: the spamer is one user from the chinese forum
08:19<Ammler>yep :-)
08:20<Ammler>well, TiberiusTeng should know more... :-P
08:20<TiberiusTeng>actually I don't know much more :P
08:21<Ammler>so nobody answered to your post?
08:21<TiberiusTeng>but they are aware of this situation, yes.
08:21<TiberiusTeng>they did, they even replied to that thread in tt-forums
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09:54<dih>hello Belugas
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10:04<@Belugas>hey dih
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10:30*Belugas is listening to Sigur Rós - Álafoss
10:30<@Belugas>fun... a discovery
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10:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13674 /trunk/src/spritecache.cpp: (log message trimmed)
10:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2127]: crash when drawing a non-real sprite. The drawing of the
10:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: non-real sprite is caused when two NewGRFs replace the same sprite and the first
10:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: replaces it with a real sprite (and thus assumes it remains a real sprite) and
10:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: the second replaces it with a non-real sprite. OpenTTD already looked at whether
10:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: the sprite to load should be seen as a real or non-real sprite, but it failed to
10:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: replace non-real sprites with a substitute real sprite when getting the sprite
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10:50<Ammler>nice comment Rubidium :-)
10:50<hylje>it's a bit terse
10:51<Ammler>there would be more, I guess
10:54<Ammler>... from the cache.
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11:07<TiberiusTeng>ahh, spritecache :P
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11:30<Eddi|zuHause3>hm... why do the czech graphics always look so... 2D?
11:30<Eddi|zuHause3> <- like this station
11:31<Ammler>specially the roads :-)
11:31<Ammler>roads looks so clean
11:31<Ammler>like lego
11:35<ccfreak2k>I like how the station terminal occludes the nearby trees.
11:36<MorgyN>theres no dithering gradient shading.
11:36<MorgyN>artist choice i guess ;D
11:37<@Belugas>or maybe lack of knowledge/tool?
11:39<MorgyN>that's and impressive station tho :D
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11:46<Doorslammer|BRSet>Depends what technique people use
11:47<Doorslammer|BRSet>There is such thing as too much dithering in my opinion
11:48<Doorslammer|BRSet>But them roads look a little underdone
11:48<Doorslammer|BRSet>Love the station too
11:50<TiberiusTeng>my friend is always complaining about the palette :p
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11:52<Doorslammer|BRSet>Just have to be real inventive with it
11:52<Doorslammer|BRSet>Many people have wonderful ideas just from the limited palette
11:53<Doorslammer|BRSet>My PNG which just finished up
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11:57<Doorslammer|BRSet>Any more wondrous musings from the genius Draakon today?
11:57<@Belugas>he has been BANNED!
11:58<@Belugas>unkless he cahnges identity, of course
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12:20<joachim>if consumer rights applied to grfs he might have a point
12:20<Doorslammer|BRSet>You sir, have earned the "Hunter Award for Excellence 2008"
12:20<joachim>but i doubt that :=
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12:25<@Belugas>Drakoon did not made any points about anything. He was just after the fun of trolling
12:25<@Belugas>if it was Drakoon you were refering to
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12:34<joachim>yes and yes
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13:44<dih> <- autmoatically upgrades to the latest nightly every day at 20.15 CEST
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13:51<SmatZ>hello Wolf01
14:04<dih> <-- will autoupgrade at 20.15 - watch in #openttdfairplay
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14:15<dih>[20:15] <dih> !revision
14:15<dih>[20:15] <Mr_Console> Game version is r13673
14:15<dih>[20:15] <Mr_Console> Server is going down for autmoated upgrade... see you soon!
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14:15<dih>[20:15] <Mr_Console> Autopilot engaged
14:15<dih>[20:15] <Mr_Console> Starting new game named ' / AutoNightly'
14:15<dih>[20:15] <dih> !revision
14:15<dih>[20:15] <Mr_Console> Game version is r13674
14:16<dih>i am just sharing my joy
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14:16<dih>sounds like someone here cannot be happy with me!
14:16<dih>anyhow - i have to run
14:16<dih>cu later on
14:19<Eddi|zuHause3>i'll never get used to this "ku" thing people say all the time
14:21*Belugas nods
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14:33<@Rubidium>dih: not to mention typos
14:34<Yorick>dih: ...
14:35<Yorick>does it go if all nightlies are compiled?
14:35<Yorick>or just if only the nightly it needs is
14:36<Yorick>yeah, you were ignoring me, but I don't care about that :)
14:37<SmatZ>Yorick: it runs if it compiles server binary
14:38<@Rubidium>anyhow... yay... yet another server
14:38<Yorick>someone fired 10 of them from the same ip
14:38<@Rubidium>especially useful with ~0.6 clients per server
14:39<SmatZ>hehe yeah, maybe it would be good to code "AI-clients"
14:42<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13675 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: memory leak when NewGRFs got forcefully disabled and they defined GOTO labels.
14:43<Yorick>quite possible, too
14:43<Yorick>with NoAI and stuff
14:46<Yorick>haven't seen any paid ones
14:46<Yorick>and it runs 30 servers
14:46<Yorick>from one IP
14:47<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Servers online: 197; Running version 0.6.1 (latest): 116; Clients online: 133
14:47<Yorick>wasn't the limit around 230?
14:48<@Rubidium>but I can't be bothered as long as the number of players < 400
14:50<Yorick>well, it seems like that is going to start some 70 more
14:51<@Rubidium>why do you think that?
14:51<Yorick>"Heute machen wir unsere Master Tests mit unserm Neun MonoWall Firewall und unserem Server, deswegn Haben wir auch knapp 100 Server Am laufen für knap 3-4 Wochen."
14:52<@Belugas>can you translate?
14:52<Yorick>not really, no :(
14:52<Yorick>ask some native german :)
14:52<planetmaker>Belugas: bragging about a new system with a firewall.
14:53<planetmaker>testing his server. Therefore he has nearly 100 servers running for 3-4 weeks.
14:53<planetmaker>Many grammar and spelling errors :P
14:53<Yorick>they can't just go runnin 100 servers
14:53<planetmaker>yeah, and content. But that's what it sais.
14:54<Yorick>"openttd(at)" for more info
14:54<@Rubidium>so we may need to throttle the amount of servers per IP to something sane
14:54<Yorick>well they can, but only if they go with their own masterserver
14:55<planetmaker>ah... maybe that's what he tries to say: doing a master test
14:56<Yorick>that does not say anything
14:56<@Rubidium>having his own master server is pointless, unless he's providing binaries for his server
14:56<Yorick>because he has 30 servers on the official masterserver
14:56<KingJ>IP Ban?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause3>this german statement does hardly make any sense...
14:57<planetmaker>hehe :)
14:57*eekee vaguely reembers being in here when the bigboom guy was excited ove having his first server up
14:57<planetmaker>Yorick: yeah, I looked at that site. It's aweful
14:57<planetmaker>And not working properly at all.
14:57<Yorick>but understandable
14:57<Doorslammer|BRSet>Its like the equivalent of a Mormon computer player :S
14:58<Yorick>their servers are flooding the masterserver
14:58<Doorslammer|BRSet>One server is good, but 30 is better
14:58<planetmaker>on the webpage nothing works except the entry page
14:58<Yorick>"4 OpenTTD Players" :-P
14:59<Yorick>they got 4 players on 100 servers
14:59<planetmaker>yeah, Very nice. And good service to the "community" :P
14:59<Yorick>Amd Opteron 2,2GHZ, 2GB DDR2 Ram, 200GB Sata2 Raid1, BioStar Board, 10MB Line, Debian 4.0 64Bit System. <-- that's also nowhere near enough for 800 possible players
14:59<planetmaker>*their community
14:59<Doorslammer|BRSet>Hes taking the pistachio
15:00<Doorslammer|BRSet>Nut references FTW
15:00<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13676 /trunk/src/oldloader.cpp: -Fix [FS#2126]: inactive companies from old (TTD) saves could be marked active in some cases, which then loads garbage in their statistics and such.
15:00<planetmaker>uh... I read someone is on a bug fixing spree :)
15:00<Yorick>yeah, we should place a limit on the masterserver for servers/ip
15:01<planetmaker>two? Three?
15:01<KingJ>Or just IP ban this guy from the master server so he can't announce in the first place?
15:01<Yorick>KinJ: hardcodes IPs; ugh
15:02<Yorick>KingJ* hardcoded*
15:03<eekee>10's quite a lot in a list, imho
15:03<@Rubidium>the quy doesn't even pause the games ;)
15:03<Yorick>woah, he allows players to set up a new server for themselves too
15:03<@Rubidium>may I :)
15:03<Yorick>well it doesn't work yet
15:03<Yorick>login: yorick password: yorick
15:04<@Rubidium>I'd like 5 0.5.3 servers with a custom setting ;)
15:04<@Rubidium>to maximize the load
15:05<@Rubidium>almost all water maps with YAPF for ships ;)
15:05<@Rubidium>and that kinds of settings
15:05<Yorick>you can't even do that
15:05<Yorick>the add.php page isn't found
15:06<Yorick>I think you can email them about how they can't just setup 100 servers
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15:07<Prof_Frink>Yorick: Don't set a max number of servers per IP. Set a max number of *empty* servers per IP.
15:07<Yorick>good idea
15:07<@Rubidium>I was more thinking of something with players and servers per IP
15:08<@Rubidium>like (5 + (players / 5)) servers per IP
15:08<Yorick>Rubidium: at most 60 players per IP
15:08<Yorick>that's also possible
15:08<eekee>why a max player limit?
15:09<Yorick>because one is currently running about 50 empty servers
15:09<KingJ>This could be a nightmare if I decide to launch OpenTTD hosting services (On hold at the moment)
15:09<@Rubidium>KingJ: what's more annoying is having 0.1 clients per server
15:09<eekee>Yorick: oh player slots? Not active players?
15:10<KingJ>Yeah, I see that he's got a lot of servers and is in effect spamming the list. How about no more than 5 servers with the same hostname per IP?
15:10<KingJ>Server name
15:11<@Rubidium>then he'll just start numbering them
15:11<Yorick>KingJ: worse, the master server can't handle 230 servers
15:11<KingJ>It can't?
15:11<@Rubidium>it can, it just will not show the last few
15:11<Yorick>udp packet limit
15:11<@Belugas>can it be controlled by the masterserver itself?
15:11<KingJ>How does your master server work then? Does it query each server or just return a list of IPs?
15:12<Yorick>it returns a list of ip
15:12<Yorick>then the client queries them
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15:12<KingJ>So how does the 230 limit come into play?
15:12<@Rubidium>~(max packet size / 6)
15:13<@Rubidium>which is like 1457/6 IIRC
15:13<Yorick>@calc 1457/6
15:13<@DorpsGek>Yorick: 242.833333333
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15:14<KingJ>Ah I see
15:14<Yorick>how does ottd react on a piece of ip?
15:14<KingJ>All encapsulated in one single packet
15:14<@Rubidium>Yorick: a piece?
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15:15<@Rubidium>it won't send half IPs
15:15<Yorick>you're sure?
15:15<@Rubidium>oh, it's more 1455/6-ish
15:15<Yorick>@calc 1455/6
15:15<@DorpsGek>Yorick: 242.5
15:16<@Rubidium>Yorick: I'm fairly sure about it
15:16<@Rubidium>static const uint16 max_count = (sizeof(this->serverlist_packet->buffer) - sizeof(PacketSize) - sizeof(PacketType) - sizeof(count)) / (sizeof(uint32) + sizeof(uint16));
15:16<@Rubidium>so (1460 - 2 - 1 - 2) / (4 + 2)
15:16<Yorick>someone can now send that bigbang stuff an email :)
15:16<@Rubidium>that amount of servers is queried
15:16<KingJ>Perhaps the master should be redesigned (I know, no small task) since OpenTTD will grow and exceed that limit one day. Another game I host for simply has their list returned from a HTTP server (pulling the data from a MySQL database or similar I presume)
15:17<@Rubidium>KingJ: there is currently *absolutely* no need for a redesign
15:17<@Rubidium>and TCP isn't quite the best protocol to use as it uses way more bandwidth than UDP
15:18<KingJ>I'm sure you will legitmately hit that limit someday though
15:18<@Rubidium>at least in this case
15:18<Yorick>then they'll bother
15:18<@Rubidium>KingJ: as long as the number of clients is less than twice the server limit I can't be bothered changing it
15:20<KingJ>Fair enough
15:20<@Rubidium>and given the 'current' rate of client growth
15:20<@Rubidium>like 10-30 a year
15:20<@Rubidium>it won't happen soon
15:21<@Rubidium>though the servers are exploding with like 100 since last year
15:22<@Belugas>which means that contrary to MB's statement, OpenTTD is easy to install and configure :P
15:23<Yorick>the servers, atleast
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15:33<tneo>does compiling under linux for 64 bit need special options?
15:34<tneo>does it make a difference I use "-j4" ?
15:34<eekee>nope ^^
15:34<tneo>ok thx :)
15:34<eekee>yw :)
15:36<MorgyN>lol openttd dedicated server is a /bit/ of a faff, but I shan't complain or you'll suggest i fix it somehow =P
15:37<Eddi|zuHause3>translation, please?
15:38<TiberiusTeng>-j4 ... are you using some dual/quad core CPU ? :P
15:38<eekee>-j6 works well on quad core :p
15:39<Eddi|zuHause3>if n is the number of cores, you can get away with -j(2n-1)
15:39<eekee>Actually I had a single core that liked -j3. Athlon 1800XP
15:39<joachim>without reading all of the backlog, the problem seems to be flooding the server list?
15:39<eekee>My later Sempron didn't want more than -2, and was generally crap for compiling
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15:40<joachim>if that is the case I think the best solution is for there not to be a default server list
15:40<joachim>such a list can always be flooded or hacked as long as the source is open
15:41<Eddi|zuHause3>a DHT serverlist ;)
15:41<eekee>it can be flooded or hacked as long as the protocol is crackable
15:41<Yorick>joachim: it's more like someone setting up 100 servers
15:41<joachim>if you have a non-hackable protocol, let cia know
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15:41<joachim>you'll earn millions
15:42<joachim>Yorick: well, trolls exist
15:42<joachim>and they always will...
15:42<Yorick>he doesn't seem to be evil
15:42<Yorick>just he doesn't know that it's gonna flood the master server
15:42<joachim>ok, then it should be possible to tell him?
15:43<joachim>and assuming it is a "he" is sexist... I know girls who enjoy openttd
15:43<Yorick>say that again
15:44<Eddi|zuHause3>joachim: there are no females on the internet
15:44<joachim>Yorick: Could not connect to remote server, but I assume yau are female?
15:44<joachim>still, you assume the host is male
15:44*eekee knows some very good simulations of females online. Has been one too. >__>
15:45<eekee>joachim: no, we all saw the web page with that image
15:45<joachim>females can be sexist as well... thinking otherwise is sexist...
15:45<hylje>male pronouns are generally used for unknown gender in english
15:45<hylje>no hard rule
15:45<joachim>hylje: especially on the internet?
15:45<Yorick>hylje: it isn't unknown
15:45<Yorick>now stop this
15:46<eekee>It used to be a hard rule. If you didn't know, you used the male
15:47<Yorick>he just doesn't know that he's gonna flood the server list
15:47<joachim>still - that is sexist - cause historically males are usually the ones either doing the tricks or being noticed for doing the tricks
15:48<joachim>so it being part of the language... plausible, but sexist
15:49<joachim>Yorick: well, is noone able to contact the host?
15:49<Yorick>I don't know
15:50<hylje>joachim: the origin is irrelevant
15:51<Eddi|zuHause3>joachim: better than "liebe Sexistinnen und Sexisten"
15:52<joachim>hylje: yes, but referring to every unknown in the openttd community as one sex would be offensive to the other
15:53<hylje>the unknown is the same word as the male
15:53<hylje>the unknown is not the male
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15:55<joachim>might be correct.. but appropriate?
15:55<joachim>like I said, the language is still made by only one sex
15:55<Eddi|zuHause3>definitely yes
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15:58<joachim>I disagree, but I guess the Scandinavian languages are of the few to take notice and adapt to this...
15:59<hylje>nothing to adapt, it was like that to begin with
15:59<hylje>for finnish anyway
15:59<joachim>nothing was there to begin with. you made your own language?
16:00<@Belugas> blablabla;
16:00<joachim>god made earth, humans. and then he created finnish :)
16:00<hylje>the pronouns are all genderless. that is obviously offensive to both sexes anyway...
16:02<@Rubidium>who said that god is male?
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16:03<joachim>Rubidium: exactly :)
16:03<joachim>wasn't it genderless?
16:03<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: Indeed, Dogma suggests otherwise.
16:03<@Rubidium>so you have been equally wrong... end of discussion ;)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause3>haha, dogma...
16:04<Eddi|zuHause3>that was on TV here last weekend ;)
16:05<joachim>the movie?
16:06<Eddi|zuHause3>no, the documentation...
16:07<joachim>ok - then there are a few
16:07<Eddi|zuHause3>why does Belugas's statement remind me of ?
16:12<joachim>one that doesn't call everyone "he"? :P
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16:34<ln>would someone like to recommend a keyboard model?
16:34<Eddi|zuHause3>qwertz ;)
16:35<+glx>azerty ftw ;)
16:36<Prof_Frink>ln: M
16:41<ln>i'll have one azerty keyboard with freedom fries, please.
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16:47<Eddi|zuHause3>did you mean: oil industry fries
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17:21*dih smiles
17:24<Eddi|zuHause3>"what is typical german mentality" -- "I have a solution to my problem, but let’s see if I can find a more complicated one."
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17:27<dih>nice one Eddi|zuHause3
17:43<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13677 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2102]: in the case that elrails and 'realistic' acceleration are disabled all electrified engines would have no power on load, until the vehicle got turned around, loaded or got into a depot.
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19:08<ArmEagle>Hmm, I haven't played for quite some time and just downloaded a 0.6.1 version for windows. I started some scenario, and I was surprised to see I could lower terrain parallel to some existing track, making that being 'built on a slope'.
19:09<ln>note to self: rm ~/Downloads/*.rar is not the command for listing downloaded rar files.
19:09<ArmEagle>But in some places, along the same stretch of (opponent's) track it does not allow this "Can't lower land here...""Must remove railroad track first".
19:09<ArmEagle>doh nvm..
19:10<ArmEagle>i had it lowered on the other side already..
19:11<joachim>ln: closing in on intelligence, are we? :P
19:13<Eddi|zuHause3>and i thought cmp vs. cp was bad...
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19:31<ben_goodger>that must have been painful
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19:40<Eddi|zuHause3>well, the files definitely were the same afterwards :p
19:42<ln>just a little bit of re-downloading...
19:43<joachim>do any of you live in the netherlands? i know there used to be a lot of dutch people in the community earlier
19:44<joachim>i'd like a job there, in it or telecom :)
19:44<Eddi|zuHause3>that'd not be different than anywhere else in europe
19:45<joachim>all european countries are the same?
19:46<Eddi|zuHause3>yes, it's called "globalisation"
19:47<joachim>and it's a trend, not a fact. there are different cultures and laws in different parts of europe....
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19:49<Eddi|zuHause3>that's mostly small details
19:49<joachim>what about suth-eastern asia and africa?
19:50<Eddi|zuHause3>most of europe has a shared history and a common base culture
19:50<joachim>so does the world
19:51<Eddi|zuHause3>i can't speak about "the world"
19:51<joachim>there are huge (local) cultural differences within europe and there is no such thing as a "globalisation" that has occured
19:52<Eddi|zuHause3>there are also huge local difference within the same country
19:52<joachim>so globalisation doesn't affect them?
19:53<Eddi|zuHause3>between villages that are only 5km distant from each other, but do not understand each other because of differently evolved dialects
19:53<joachim>01:44 < joachim> all european countries are the same?
19:53<joachim>01:46 < Eddi|zuHause3> yes, it's called "globalisation"
19:53<joachim>you just said europe shared a culture
19:54<Eddi|zuHause3>well, it's basically like 3 main cultures that all influenced each other ;)
19:55<joachim>citation needed.. i still want to move to the netherlands :) so if anyone has a vacant job... let me know
19:55<joachim>Eddi|zuHause3: may i ask where you live?
19:55<Eddi|zuHause3>right here.
19:55<Eddi|zuHause3>central germany
19:56<joachim>otherwise you would be somewhere else :)
19:56<joachim>ok, then i agree with you a little
19:57<joachim>i might group the dutch culture in a "continental" culture along with zc, belgium, etc
19:57<joachim>zc = ch
19:58<joachim>typical for the beer belt except for the uk
19:59<joachim>suthern is the wine belt, and northern europe (except uk) is the vodka belt
19:59<ln>the problem with netherlands is that you cannot watch e.g. their tv without laughing at the subtitles.
19:59<joachim>like you said, three cultures, Eddi|zuHause3 :)
19:59<joachim>ln: i don't watch tv... :)
19:59<Poopsmith>mmm vodka
20:00<Eddi|zuHause3>uk is like a mixture of every major european culture ;)
20:01<Eddi|zuHause3>most obvious in the language ;)
20:01<joachim>and indians...
20:02<Eddi|zuHause3>anyway, i'd have grouped europe like this: south (mediterranean, from ancient greek and ancient roman), center and north (germanic) and east (slavic)
20:03<ln>and denmark (bjarni)
20:03<joachim>i think i agree, north is from denmark then, and south/center border is the french/german?
20:04<Eddi|zuHause3>south/center border is basically the alps
20:04<joachim>ok, historically thats fine
20:04<Eddi|zuHause3>and in the middle of france
20:05<Eddi|zuHause3>where that border is a little fuzzy in france ;)
20:05<joachim>still, i can't help myself, i have been to most european countries and i'd like to move to the netherlands :)
20:05<Eddi|zuHause3>germanic tribes moved into the former roman territory, and the habits mixed
20:06<joachim>probably not likely since i'm on the wrong side of the economy...
20:06*Poopsmith is still unsure whether he wants to move to germany or stay here (nz)
20:07<joachim>i'd stay!
20:07<joachim>unless i was born and raised (and bored)
20:07<Poopsmith>yeah, thats what it is
20:07<joachim>ok, then i'd leave :P
20:08<joachim>as long as you get a better standard of living
20:09<joachim>or equal or a tiny bit less, it's always nice to experience a different culture
20:09<Poopsmith>spent a month there when i was 15 (school exchange)
20:09<Eddi|zuHause3>a month is hardly enough to get to know a country ;)
20:09<joachim>ok.. i've been there as well
20:10<Poopsmith>Eddi|zuHause3: yeah, i know :-P and especially when you're 15 :P
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20:10<joachim>the difference between western and eastern germany is striking
20:11<Eddi|zuHause3>well, it's (slowly) going back to the traditional north-south difference ;)
20:12<Poopsmith>Eddi|zuHause3: i stayed in Gifhorn (, lovely little place
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20:14<joachim>well, for us half socialists in scandinavia it's weird to see people in one country having that different standard
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 05 00:00:27 2008