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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-05

---Logopened Sat Jul 05 00:00:27 2008
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03:24<Alberth>morning all
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03:46<ben_goodger>and this is to be this morning's conversation: a series of varied greetings punctuated by awkward silence
03:46<Poopsmith>yep, something like that
03:46<Poopsmith>except its evening ;-)
03:46<Poopsmith><3 timezones
03:47<hylje>pff, we're european
03:48<Poopsmith><-- kiwi
03:49*Wolf01 <-- wolf
03:49*Poopsmith runs from the wolf
03:50<Wolf01>I don't bite anymore
03:50*Poopsmith walks back, eyeing Wolf01 with suspicion
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03:54<ben_goodger>hail europe
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04:55<dih>network/network.cpp:44 needs removing if i am not mistaken
04:55<dih>the variable _network_reload_cfg is not used anywhere...
04:55<dih>it's been made network.reload_cfg
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05:42<planetmaker> <-- when submitting this bug report I had no other chance than to submit it as confirmed bug
05:42<planetmaker>while I did that, I guess it's not the intention of the system that user confirm their own reports, ey?
05:47<Alberth>I guess it goes without saying (the other way around would be quite interesting to happen)
05:48<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I marked it as confirmed
05:48<planetmaker>hu? right when I entered it yesterday?
05:48<planetmaker>But maybe I was just too tired then :)
05:48<@Rubidium>but it was New when I first looked at it
05:48<planetmaker>ah, then you've been at least in my impression lightening fast :)
05:49<@peter1138>long standing ttd bug
05:49<planetmaker>but good to know that it's been just my tiredness then... sorry for bothering
05:49<@Rubidium>if ~8 hours is lightning fast, then yes
05:49<@peter1138>sort of thing
05:50<planetmaker>hehe :)
05:51<planetmaker>speed of light can be as low as a few 10 km/s... - just a question of matter :P
05:53<dih>consider the major time difference between the 2 of you :-P
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05:58*peter1138 wants some slow glass
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06:08<planetmaker>hehe. You need rubidium in order to stop light ;)
06:09<Gekz>oh that was cool
06:09<Gekz>I remember reading about that
06:15<Mchl> <planetmaker> hehe. You need rubidium in order to stop light <- oh my, how much of coincidence is that? :D
06:22<Doorslammer|BRSet>Rubidium created the heaven and the Earth and I claim my $5
06:30<ben_goodger>I call BS. the FSM created the heaven, the other heaven and the earth :P
06:35<Prof_Frink>Praise be to his noodly appendage.
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11:04<lolman>oh noes
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11:07<Sacro>oh noes
11:07<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
11:07<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 18 hours, 59 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
11:08<Sacro>he never did have any, that's why he's singe
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12:13<ln>@seen woman
12:13<@DorpsGek>ln: I have not seen woman.
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12:30<Mirrakor>@seen a_pretty_girl
12:30<@DorpsGek>Mirrakor: I have not seen a_pretty_girl.
12:32<Noldo>har har
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13:01<Doorslammer|BRSet>Oi, question :P
13:02<Doorslammer|BRSet>How can OTTD be made to use win GRFs instead of DOS GRFs?
13:02<Doorslammer|BRSet>And vice versa
13:02<hylje>provide windows GRFs instead of DOS GRFs
13:02<hylje>and vice versa
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13:03<Noldo>and using the corresponding original graphic files
13:04<Doorslammer|BRSet>Hey, its my question, get your own ;)
13:04<Doorslammer|BRSet>What if said GRFs are not available?
13:05<hylje>the game refuses to run as it is
13:05<Doorslammer|BRSet>Anyway, how is it decided what GRF is needed?
13:05<hylje>i dunno, use what's available but if both are I guess windows ones are preferred
13:05<Doorslammer|BRSet>Why is there a difference in palettes?
13:05<hylje>the difference between windows and dos grfs lies in the palettes IIRC
13:05<hylje>it's just the way it is
13:05<Doorslammer|BRSet>Well I have put on the OpenGFX pack
13:05<Doorslammer|BRSet>And palette is all to pot
13:05<Doorslammer|BRSet>Again :)
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13:09<Mirrakor>Is openGFX available yet?
13:09<Doorslammer|BRSet>Individual parts are
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13:12<Mirrakor>hm, if they're complete would openttd be completely free available for people who don't have/want to buy the real TTD?
13:13<hylje>there's still some derived work in OpenTTD core
13:13<Doorslammer|BRSet>Good question
13:14<hylje>Noldo: i dunno but i've overheard the devs occassionally
13:14<Noldo>hylje: it doesn't seem to effect them distributing it though
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13:15<joachim>heh no
13:15<hylje>it's still an issue of truly Free
13:15<Noldo>but it might be the graphics that are needed for new features
13:15<joachim>sounds like an issue of getting sued
13:15<Noldo>as they are based on the original graphics in order to fit in nicely
13:17<Noldo>Mirrakor: btw. which free do you mean?
13:25<joachim>free as in speech
13:28<Eddi|zuHause2>free beer costs 5 euro
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13:42<Mirrakor>hylje: atm I'm talking about the beer thing - I think that's a thing with which we could win a few windows users too :)
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14:11<Noldo>blathijs: do you still have the "empty" original graphic files?
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14:21<ln>i will not buy this record, it is scratched.
14:22<Eddi|zuHause2>ich möchte diesen teppich nicht kaufen
14:22<Eddi|zuHause2>gute reise
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14:53<ln>how much is it possible to spoil with just one word?
14:54*Mirrakor stellt Eddi|zuHause2 ein Paulaner Weißbier hin
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15:23<Noldo>how can I get rid of original industries?
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15:25<Ammler>Noldo: ECS
15:25<Ammler>(hmm, was that a serious question?)
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15:26<Ammler>if you load only town vector, you have no industry anymore.
15:26<Noldo>I do want some industries, just not the original ones
15:27<Noldo>so some other ecs vector maybe
15:27<Ammler>I fear, ECS is theonly newindustry GRF, which removes the original.
15:28<Noldo>I fear nothing!
15:28<Eddi|zuHause2>there's also Pikka's industry set, but that rather extends the original industries
15:28<+glx>only ECSTown removes all
15:29<Ammler>glx: is that reson it needs to be first?
15:31<Eddi|zuHause2>a more modular design could duplicate that behaviour into each grf
15:32<Eddi|zuHause2>then the grfs each could check whether they are first, and then behave accordingly
15:32<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: a ECSReset :-)
15:32<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: that's not what i meant
15:33<Eddi|zuHause2>more like an "#include <common_behaviour.nfo>"
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15:38<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause2: you are asuming that this would be the desired functionality
15:39<joachim>grf is not very anything (modular, user friendly, customazible)
15:39<joachim>but i guess there already has been a few discussions about moving to a better format?)
15:40<Eddi|zuHause2>not better, just xml :p
15:40<Ammler>joachim: agree to first 2, but fully disagree to 3.
15:40<joachim>Ammler: well, it is customazible, but you have to read up on a lot of stuff
15:41<Ammler>we need ndl or how is it called Eddi|zuHause2?
15:41<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, but i don't have that kind of time
15:42<Noldo>if I only had that those empty grafic files
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15:42<Ammler>maybe the language (squirrel or what ever) would also be usefull for GRFs?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause2>Noldo: what do you mean with empty graphic files?
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15:43<joachim>grf is not the future, whenever rewrites are considered, grf should go...
15:44<Eddi|zuHause2>joachim: rewrites are not considered at all
15:44<Noldo>joachim: you might be somewhat alone with that view
15:44<joachim>Noldo: ok as well :)
15:44<Noldo>joachim: not completely but somewhat ;)
15:44<Ammler>Noldo: decode trg* and replace pcx with empty pcx and encode :-P
15:44<Eddi|zuHause2>even NDL is just compiled into NFO
15:45<Noldo>Ammler: I know I know
15:46<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: as I searched for your thread in tt-forums, I found a second proposal
15:46<Noldo>:/ ECS seesto use original graphics for some industries
15:46<Ammler>Noldo: OpenGFX
15:46<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: i'm sure there are at least half a dozen of those
15:47<Eddi|zuHause2>but yes, there was a kind of low level extension proposed at the same time
15:47<Noldo>Ammler: as it happens the industries are oil refinery and oil wells, which don't have new graphics in that either
15:48<Eddi|zuHause2>Noldo: well, then you know what is left to do :p
15:48<joachim>Noldo: still, grf, doesn't have to go, but a simpler format, like xml could be introduced and for a (long) while openttd could support both
15:48<Noldo>well, if OpenGFX was ready I would have no problems in the first place
15:49<Ammler>xml isn't simpler
15:49<joachim>would be alot simpler for people to code their mods or vehicles
15:49<Eddi|zuHause2>joachim: xml is the worst thing that can happen
15:49<Ammler>xml is just another save format
15:49<joachim>simpler to the program or simpler to the modders?
15:50<joachim>it seems many struggle with grf
15:50<Eddi|zuHause2>xml is bad in so many ways
15:50<Ammler>joachim: xml wouldn't save that
15:51<Ammler>something like Eddi|zuHause2 proposed would help there much more.
15:51<Noldo>joachim: it's internals that count
15:53<joachim>openttd has strict coding regulations to make it readable for humans... if not, it could be coded in assembler or in hex numbers like grf
15:53<joachim>doesn't really make sense
15:53<Prof_Frink>openttd in asm == ttdpatch
15:54<joachim>didn't mention the patch
15:54<Eddi|zuHause2>it is obvious that NFO was designed by assembler coders
15:54<Eddi|zuHause2>but that does not make it bad
15:54<joachim>it raises the bar for getting involved
15:54<Eddi|zuHause2>the problem is, it did not evolve far from there
15:55<Ammler>yeah, you can still translate to it from high level language.
15:55<Eddi|zuHause2>people don't code in java byte code
15:55<Eddi|zuHause2>but the java compiler transforms every java program into byte code
15:55<Eddi|zuHause2>which was the approach i wanted to take with NDL
15:55<joachim>is there a translator from high level code to/from grf? if there is such a tool, np
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15:56<Ammler>joachim: and there is GRFMaker :-)
15:57<+glx>nfo is not hard
15:57<joachim>glx: for who? :)
15:57<+glx>it just looks hard
15:57<Eddi|zuHause2>asm is not hard either
15:57<joachim>like advanced math?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause2>just you have a lot of jiggling with numbers
15:57<joachim>nothing is hard...
15:57<Eddi|zuHause2>higher maths is "easier" on a much different level ;)
15:58<+glx>and modifying a vehicle is one of the easiest thing
15:58<joachim>again, for who?
15:58<Eddi|zuHause2>for anyone who can follow the steps of a step by step tutorial
15:59<joachim>for anyone who bothers and has the learning ability to do so
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15:59<+glx>but I agree advanced action 2 are not easy to begin with
15:59<joachim>noone can say graphic artists haven't given up many times?
16:00<joachim>variable actions... i had a tough time tracing them even after reading all the documentation
16:00<Ammler>joachim: if you show good graphics, you should be able to find a coder.
16:00<+glx>grf2html helps a lot
16:01<Eddi|zuHause2>varaction2 are an easy concept: switch(variable) { case a..b: goto X; case c..d: goto Y; ... }
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16:02<joachim>depending on earlier statements, etc., it wasn't easy for a first timer like me to understand where they were and what they did
16:02<joachim>sure, it's easy when you have a manual and time...
16:03<Eddi|zuHause2>the problem is that the specs were not written like that ;)
16:03<+glx>btw it's easier to write a grf than to add support for a grf feature
16:04<+glx>as the wiki is for grf coders
16:04<+glx>we often need to look at asm to understand how to implement a feature
16:04<Eddi|zuHause2>well, you still have the "canonical" documentation ;)
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16:14<Noldo>is it possible to make newgrf load so they are in use in the title screen?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause2>having newgrfs in the title screen is not recommended
16:15<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, you can rename opntitle.dat into .sav and load it like a normal game
16:15<Eddi|zuHause2>or you can rename any .sav into opntitle.dat
16:16<+glx>you can use static grfs
16:16<Noldo>it's not that I want them in the thing running on the background, but my messing with the original grfs rendered the gui unusable
16:17<Eddi|zuHause2>oh, like that... then you have to mess around with the grfs like the townname special case handling
16:18<Noldo>the main problem is that the fonts are missing
16:19<@peter1138>use a ttf font
16:19<Eddi|zuHause2>you can specify fonts in the .cfg
16:26<Noldo>as interesting and promising as this is I need some sleep
16:26<Eddi|zuHause2>how dare you!
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16:49<Ammler>do you mind having old cfg format compatible with new?
16:49<Ammler>because it seems, it isn't anymore.
16:49<Ammler>specially the diff_opt
16:51<Eddi|zuHause2>apparently it was decided to not do that :p
16:52<Ammler>so if you have setting in old format, they can't be taken with?
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16:56<+glx>new version can read old format, but it will be converted to new on save
16:58<Eddi|zuHause2>so make sure to always kill any running app ;)
16:59<Eddi|zuHause2>(or alternatively: make the .cfg readonly)
16:59<joachim>if you don't want any apps to run, there is a better solution
17:00<joachim>don't turn your computer on :)
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>app = {openttd[.exe]}
17:04<Eddi|zuHause2>it should be possible to run openttd as kernel :p
17:14<+glx>just use -x
17:17<Ammler>[22:56] <glx> new version can read old format, but it will be converted to new on save <-- if not, worth a FS post?
17:18<Ammler>and yes, we use -x
17:18<Ammler>but I guess, we need to update the config tool :-)
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19:18<Sacro> <- holy fuck that's awesome
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19:33*joachim seconds Ambler
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19:56*ArmEagle thirds Ammler
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20:44<ArmEagle>hmm, is there any way of making an existing savegame to use newly added newgrf packages?
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20:47<ArmEagle>ah, found it..
20:47<ArmEagle>Hi Cyclonerotary
20:48<Cyclonerotary>is this the place to ask an open tt question?
20:48<Cyclonerotary>ok, say there are 3 town a,b,c in a line
20:49<Cyclonerotary>is it more proffitable to go from a-b-c or from a-c?
20:49<Cyclonerotary>lots of short hops or massive express lines?
20:52<ArmEagle>I think the game still favors long running lines. But I haven't played for a long time, until just yesterday and now again
20:53<Cyclonerotary>picked it up a few days ago
20:54<Cyclonerotary>amazed to find so many people still playing it
20:54<ArmEagle>there's no game like it :)
20:55<Cyclonerotary>it could be remade so well
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---Logclosed Sun Jul 06 00:01:00 2008