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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-08

---Logopened Tue Jul 08 00:00:01 2008
---Daychanged Tue Jul 08 2008
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03:00<dih>08:58 <@Belugas> [04:33:13] i am realistically bored by the wish of realism integration in thisnot realistic game <- i second you on that ;-)
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03:31<DJNekkid>if i apply this line to a wagon sprite, should i not make this wagon smaller by 00 (inbetween 01 and 80), i.e. makeing it fullsize?
03:31<DJNekkid>-1 * 0 02 00 B1 81 0C 00 FF 01 00 80 11 11 B0 00
03:32<Forked>lo dj :)
03:32<DJNekkid>hi Forked
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03:38<ln>begin of discussion
03:39<GoneWacko>end of dicussion
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03:52<ln>i wouldn't be surprised if that story becomes slashdotted.
03:54<Forked>and digged
03:54<Forked>or dugg rather
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05:50<Ammler>some long life servers:
05:55<@peter1138>are those extra fields shown in trunk?
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05:59<Ammler>peter1138: no, but a nice patch
06:00<Ammler>they automatically appear on resizing.
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06:17<MorgyN>24838 years?
06:18<MorgyN>do you login and its just an inhabitable wasteland?
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07:45<@Rubidium>michi_cc: I've got another very similar YAPF crash in YAPP, though sadly enough I've not been able to reproduce it as of yet :(
07:52<Ammler>is the new YAPP release worth to test again our asserts?
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08:01<@peter1138>no point in testing old stuff
08:01<@peter1138>unless you meant latest vs none
08:04<Ammler>just asking, if our reported bugs should be fixed there, or we need to wait...
08:16<eekee>well if they're not tested, how does anyone know if they're fixed?
08:18<planetmaker>eekee: the author should know :)
08:18<@peter1138>failing that, you ask michi_cc directly. we are not involved in it
08:19<eekee>planetmaker: no not really, if the bug doesn't show itself in his usage, then he won't know at all
08:20<planetmaker>eekee: he should know wether he fixed or at least try to fix it since the bug report.
08:20<Ammler>peter1138: just asked, because Rubidium did highlight him anyway :-)
08:21<Ammler>v8.1 didn't fix much from our tests.
08:22<Ammler>so I let it be testing further...
08:22<eekee>planetmaker: that is true, but bugs and features don't exist in isolation from each other, they interact in annoying ways
08:23<@peter1138>i'd say always test the latest version
08:23<eekee>yeah me too
08:23<planetmaker>eekee: I know :). But yapp doesn't need (nor got) more features, but bug fixes. So it should be a valid questions wether all asserts reported in the last test led to some code modification
08:23<@peter1138>even if your bugs aren't fixed, you might end up finding new ones, heh
08:24<eekee>planetmaker: 'k then :)
08:24<Ammler>indeed :-P
08:24<planetmaker>hehe. Since that test on our server I appreciate you devs' reluctance to deal with bigger patches much more :)
08:28<Noldo>are there simple test cases for the old asserts?
08:29<planetmaker>depends. Look at the thread and the description
08:32<Ammler>Noldo: made summary of the asserts here:
08:33<Ammler>that one is more a feature request:
08:36<planetmaker> <- and this one tells us, that our asserts shouldn't happen anymore
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08:48<Ammler>planetmaker: It did just "move" the assert :-)
08:49<planetmaker>replace typhus with cholera?
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09:47<Eddi|zuHause2><Belugas> i am realistically bored by the wish of realism integration in thisnot realistic game <- technically, i'd value aesthetics a tiny bit more significant than realism
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09:54<@Belugas>aesthetics, i don't mind, as long as it's not aimed at making it all look like real life, same proportions and all... there is where i find it utterly boring
09:54<@Belugas>wow... first time i use "utterly" :)
09:55<@Belugas>stolen trees are a good example
09:55<@Belugas>they are good looking, yet, the proportions are not "real"
09:56<Gekz>Belugas: you have a hard time with tense, don't you?
09:58<Eddi|zuHause2>screw the proportions ;)
09:59<@Belugas>Gekz: Me? no. Why?
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09:59<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause2, exactly :)
09:59<Eddi|zuHause2>but i would like slightly longer wagons
10:00<Gekz>Belugas: you screwed up your tense in "wow... first time i use "utterly" :)"
10:00<Gekz>and I've seen you do it a few times before
10:00<Gekz>you used present tense there, where it should have been past
10:01<Gekz>"I've used"
10:01<@Belugas>tense? i may not follow you there... what do you mean?
10:01<Gekz>past, present, future
10:01<Gekz>if you dont mind, I'll correct you in the future
10:01<Gekz>to help you out
10:01*Gekz is a language nazi
10:01<Eddi|zuHause2>this could be "easily" accomplished, imho, there should be a flag for vehicles in an articulated chain saying "no bend", where the vehicle always gets directly attached to the previous vehicle (in curves), but behaves like a normal vehicle for visibility purposes/bounding boxes (e.g. in tunnels)
10:01<@Belugas>well.. as you know, i'm a french speaker and i've yet been able to master english properly. yes, your help may be appreciated :)
10:02<Lord>Hi Rubidium, I just wanted to thank you for fixing those TTD savegame "bugs" so quickly. Any idea when those bugfixes will be made official with a new stable release (0.6.2 or 0.7.0)?
10:02<Gekz>Belugas: I'm going to New Caledonia tomorrow :D
10:02<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause2, seems like a "George" plan ;)
10:02<Gekz>for a week
10:02<Gekz>French only :o
10:02<@Belugas>nice Gekz :)
10:02<@Belugas>have fun !
10:02<Gekz>I will.
10:02<Eddi|zuHause2>not at all... i said longer, not bigger ;)
10:02<Gekz>I only know 2 months of french lol
10:03<Eddi|zuHause2>trust me, you wouldn't be much better with 4 years of french :p
10:04<Eddi|zuHause2>(that is, unless you have regular intensive contact with french speakers)
10:04<Gekz>Je parle francais un peu!
10:04<Gekz>I lack the cedilla.
10:04<+glx>ç <-- take it ;)
10:05<@Belugas>i don't know how to write it with my own keyboard :)
10:05<Gekz>I recompiled my entire laptop
10:05<Gekz>havent fixed my xorg.conf
10:05<Eddi|zuHause2>ç <-
10:05<Gekz>its 8 or 9 on AZERTY
10:05<Gekz>do the french really use that terrible keyboard regularly?
10:05<Gekz>its barely suited to ANY language
10:05<Eddi|zuHause2>AltGr+Accent,C here
10:05<Gekz>it lacks the ethel
10:05<Gekz>and it has the section symbol and micro symbol
10:06<Eddi|zuHause2>requires accent to be a dead key
10:06<Gekz>mmm dead keys
10:06<Gekz>what OS?
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10:09<Gekz>Gentoo is quite fun
10:10<Gekz>as long as you don't get all elitist about it
10:10<Gekz>and think you're super hardcore because you can use a USE flag
10:10<Gekz>and compile with -Os -march=pentium-m
10:10<@peter1138>as long as you don't want to use it
10:10<Gekz>use what
10:11<Gekz>"it" isn't very specific
10:11<Gekz>there was at least 3 subjects
10:11<MorgyN>and have a lot of free time
10:11<Gekz>how does running emerge miscellaneous-shit before going to bed require free time?
10:11<SmatZ>I don't have problem with compiling at background
10:12<MorgyN>because you missed a flag and it borked after the 2nd object file
10:12<SmatZ>everything works fine :)
10:12<Gekz>I needed an optimised system for my 600Mhz
10:12<Gekz>I want firefox to be able to run with mplayer without it burning
10:12<SmatZ>and if you really want to have something installed quickly, you can install binary package...
10:12<Gekz>MorgyN: I dont fail that much
10:12<Gekz>Gentoo isn't for everyoen
10:12<Gekz>I don't even advocate it
10:12<MorgyN>run away, its the gentoo zealots! *flees*
10:12<Gekz>I use Debian on my desktop
10:13<Gekz>I use Gentoo on my EeePC
10:14*peter1138 ponders a new telly
10:14<MorgyN>1080p all the wya
10:14<@peter1138>plasma or lcd though
10:14<Eddi|zuHause2><Gekz> as long as you don't get all elitist about it <- says the guy who starts the OS flamewar... The Irony...
10:14<@peter1138>hmm, or should i wait for the next dtv standard to come
10:15<MorgyN>plasma is a pita with burn in
10:16<SmatZ>LFS is elitic :-P
10:16<SmatZ>Gentoo is LFS for lazy ;-)
10:16<@peter1138>hmm, at least 600 quid... maybe not
10:17*peter1138 shall wait, what with the dtv box not being hd yet
10:17<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause2: wha?
10:18*Belugas fills his cell phone with lottsa music
10:18<MorgyN>most modern tvs have dvb-t built in
10:18<Gekz>I didn't get elitist.
10:18<@Belugas>got a 4gig to fill!
10:18<@peter1138>yes, but it's still not HD
10:18<Gekz>Gentoo is FreeBSD + Linux kernel
10:18<MorgyN>They are here =/
10:18<MorgyN>britain that is
10:18<@peter1138>no they're not
10:18<MorgyN>bbc do HD freeview broadcasts from certain transmitters
10:19<Gekz>epdfview kicks ass
10:19<ben_goodger>Gekz: I'm pretty sure Gentoo GNU/Linux is actually GNU, not FreeBSD
10:20<Eddi|zuHause2><MorgyN> most modern tvs have dvb-t built in <- which is useless, when they're going to switch to DVB-T2 :p
10:20<@peter1138>i thought that was testing
10:20<MorgyN>ahh ok, was a trial =)
10:20<Gekz>ben_goodger: thank you for entirely missing the point.
10:20<@peter1138>DVB-T2 or something is due soon
10:20<@peter1138>end of next year
10:21<Gekz>ben_goodger: also, if you want to get smart, gentoo has the fbsd kernel available as well
10:21<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2: exactly my reasoning :)
10:21<@peter1138>if i buy now, i'll end up with a tv with yet another stb, heh
10:21<MorgyN>so all the DVB-T boxes will be useless soon...
10:22<MorgyN>I can see that going down well, lots of people arent ready for the analogue switch off
10:22<@peter1138>possibly they can run both side by side
10:22<Eddi|zuHause2>the analogue switch-off is like what? 2 years away?
10:22<ben_goodger>MorgyN: I think it can be presumed that the systems will be backward-compatible on some level
10:22<@peter1138>with analogue gone there'll be lots of free space
10:22<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause2: it's less than eight months away in my part of the UK
10:22<@peter1138>ben_goodger: fundamentally it can't be
10:22<MorgyN>dvb-t2 boxes can read dvb-t but not the other way round
10:22<ben_goodger>or some very similar timescale
10:22<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, i have DVB-S :p
10:23<MorgyN>peter1138: they arent freeing up that space for tv tho
10:23<MorgyN>that space is going to be reused for mobiles or something
10:23<@peter1138>satellite can piss off
10:23<ben_goodger>peter1138: then they'll be broadcast simultaneously. it would be massively stupid to make DVB-T unusable after marketing it continually for five years
10:23<@peter1138>along with that fellow who runs it all
10:24<@peter1138>when i bought my house i took down the sat dish :D
10:25<MorgyN>what about freesat tho?
10:25<MorgyN>arent they putting the bbc hd channels on that
10:25<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm thinking about dropping TV altogether... there's only rubbish on anyway
10:25<Forked>good call
10:25<Forked>I did that a couple of years ago :)
10:25<MorgyN>godbless bittorrent *ahem*
10:26<Forked>even if I can now get it for free through work
10:26<Eddi|zuHause2>anything relevant can be retrieved over the intartubes :p
10:26<ben_goodger>MorgyN: indeed
10:26<Forked>or on dvd
10:26<MorgyN>Till the EU 3 strikes malarky =(
10:26<Eddi|zuHause2>a year early even :p
10:26<@Belugas>don't like satellite either
10:26<@Belugas>cable is better
10:26<MorgyN>Not in the uk =(
10:27<Eddi|zuHause2>cable is not really that much of an option in a rural area ;)
10:27<MorgyN>the bandwidth that virgin gives per channel is appalling
10:27<Forked>iptv :o
10:27<MorgyN>due to them still using qos64
10:27<ben_goodger>Belugas: cable stops 50km east of here
10:27<Noldo>the 3 strikes thing sends an iteresting signal
10:27<Eddi|zuHause2>plus, they charge extra for the cable, and then another extra for the digital channels on the cable
10:28<Forked>maybe I should get myself an anonymous internet connection with no real trace back to me in any system at my isp .. where I happen to work
10:28<Eddi|zuHause2>Noldo: yeah, convict people without proper trial by non-state-organisations
10:28<Noldo>that too
10:28<@Belugas>too bad ben_goodger :(
10:29<@Belugas>here, it's quite afordable and largely distributed
10:29<MorgyN>not to mention you can fool the detection systems
10:29<MorgyN>someone you don't like
10:29<MorgyN>find thier ip and put it on the p2p networks
10:29<+glx><Eddi|zuHause2> cable is not really that much of an option in a rural area ;) <-- even in towns
10:30<MorgyN>there was that group that managed to get a Cease and Desist sent to thier printer =)
10:30<MorgyN>(ip assigned only to printer, downloading infringing material etc)
10:30<Forked>ye I liked that one
10:31<Noldo>internet connection is starting to be important way to access different services
10:31<Noldo>in the same way that telephone and maybe earlier some forms of public transport were
10:33<Noldo>with the 3 strikes it is ok to separate a person from the services because of a some what minor incident
10:34<Forked>mmm vdsl2
10:34<MorgyN>wonder if I can put a dish in the attic...
10:35<@peter1138>petri dish
10:35<@peter1138>hmm, wonder where my dish went
10:35<@peter1138>think it's lament in a corner of the garden
10:35<@peter1138>'orrible things
10:35<Eddi|zuHause2>MorgyN: won't do much good without a direct visual connection
10:35<Forked>suddenly there was a hole in the roof
10:36<@peter1138>why? it's not optical...
10:36<MorgyN>well unless I create a hole with some radio invisible material
10:36<MorgyN>only tiles in the way... probably affect radio less than clouds =)
10:37<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: yes, but it electromagnetic waves of these frequencies are very easily absorbed by solid material
10:37<MorgyN>snow will balls it tho ;D
10:37<Eddi|zuHause2>e.g. the skyscraper next to your house :p
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10:37<@peter1138>i don't know what range of frequencies are used
10:38<@peter1138>probably the sort that cooks me while i live
10:38<Eddi|zuHause2>even holding a hand in front of the LNB will kill any connection
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10:38<Eddi|zuHause2>something around 10GHz i believe
10:39<Eddi|zuHause2>i've had cases where clouds were so dense that recieving broke
10:40<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause2: as a experienced NewGRF user, what do you think about: ?
10:42<@Belugas>you want an additionnal file that would include/describe stuff already in the grf???
10:43<Ammler>Belugas: no
10:43<@peter1138>already one useless post :)
10:43<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm not really sure what you want to achieve with that
10:43<@peter1138>i think if done right it's a good idea
10:43<Eddi|zuHause2>save some preset GRF-configurations in there or something?
10:43<@peter1138>think of all those newbies who just add everything and wonder why it's messed up...
10:43<Eddi|zuHause2>some kind of machine-readable readme?
10:43<Gekz>I love noobies
10:43<@peter1138>no, those are boobies
10:43<Ammler>Belugas: specailly the parameter handling is very hard.
10:43*peter1138 has grf presets, heh
10:44<@peter1138>hmm, i guess i didn't add that, heh
10:44<@Belugas>not for those who are readin the readmes, Ammler ;)
10:44<@Belugas>no you didn't, peter1138 :)
10:44<Eddi|zuHause2>of course you do, peter1138 :p
10:44<@peter1138>"reading the readmes" is all very well
10:44<@peter1138>but at least one set has had a readme that is only in pdf format
10:44<@peter1138>not very useful when setting up a server, for example
10:45<Ammler>Belugas: a configuration can't read the readme proper :P
10:45<Ammler>configuration tool
10:45<@Belugas>no indeed, but reading it would greatly help configuring it properly :S
10:45<Ammler>and how would you save those infos?
10:46<@Belugas>ho... but indeed, i forgot... these days, it's a "grab-all-grfs-no-matter-what" frenzy and then ask why it does not work...
10:46<Gekz>I've never done that
10:47<Gekz>I had 12 GRFs running the first time I ever tried
10:47<Gekz>no conflicts
10:47<@Rubidium>we should make a real world analog of that ;)
10:47<Ammler>I wonder how many can combine TTRS and dbsetxl
10:47<Gekz>Rubidium: explain
10:47<Gekz>analog or analogy*
10:48<@Rubidium>the latter
10:48<@Rubidium>like a car where you add 20 engines and 40 wheels and 5 steering wheels and then wondering why it doesn't work like a normal car
10:49<Gekz>I like the quote "Can you build webpages with firefox?"
10:49<Gekz>and the comeback:
10:49<Gekz>"Can you build cars with roads?"
10:49<Eddi|zuHause2>i love real world analogies... especially with stupid maths questions ;)
10:50<MorgyN>mmm pie
10:51<Ammler>and another big problem is that many GRF devs just didn't code dependencies.
10:51*Belugas reads one more time Ammler's suggestion, just in case something eluded him
10:52<MorgyN>clearly need to swap to RPMs...
10:52<Eddi|zuHause2>i think you should work out some proper use cases, Ammler.
10:53<@Belugas>exclusiveOfType=<list:Trains,Industries,...> <--- that is restrictive and not really usefull.
10:53<@Belugas>does not bring much, apart the content, i think
10:54<Ammler>that could be used from i.e. canset.
10:55<@Belugas>fuck canset
10:55<Ammler>isn't availabe anymore.
10:55<Ammler>you blamed him away :-)
10:56<Ammler>he took the whole set out of the net.
10:57<@Belugas>me? naaaa... he said he wanted some time to make it more usable or something
10:57<Ammler>but there are also industry sets like PBI
10:57<Ammler>which you shouldn't use with ECS etc.
10:57<@Rubidium>you shouldn't use ECS anyways ;)
10:57<Ammler>and ECS has plenty of bit switches...
10:59<Ammler>combining bridge sets with roadsets...
10:59<Ammler>we need something to store "the experience".
11:01<Ammler>hmm, there is a lot more, then just wat I have there.
11:02<Ammler>[16:43] * peter1138 has grf presets, heh <-- we thought about that, too.
11:04<@Belugas>was it finished, peter1138?
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11:10<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r13681 /trunk/src/ (elrail.cpp openttd.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_base.h):
11:10<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Revert (r13678, r13677): the fixes didn't work in all cases (assertions on savegame loads).
11:10<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2102]: but now in a hopefully beter way.
11:11<Ammler>peter1138: do you have documentation how to make those presets?
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11:14<Ammler>or is it "just" a snippet from the [newgrf] segtion?
11:15<@Belugas>not even in trunk, Ammler
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11:16<Ammler>Belugas: I hope so, else it would be a shame not to know it :-)
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11:21<@peter1138>exactly the same as a [newgrf] section
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11:24<Ammler>a function like loadingOnlyNewGRFconf
11:24<Ammler>(and save)
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11:25<Ammler>save isn't needed, that would be more "export" then :-)
11:26<Gekz>going to bed
11:26<Gekz>see you guys next wednesday
11:27<Ammler>peter1138: just another idea :-)
11:27<Ammler>(extracting NewGRF conf from a save.
11:27<@peter1138>well, load the savegame then save the config as a preset
11:28<Ammler>yeah, that would be cool! (k)
11:28<DaleStan>DJNekkid: That NFO looks fine to me. Load it in TTDPatch and Grfdebug it.
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11:40<Ammler>peter1138: do you mind, I try your patch?
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11:48<@peter1138>if you can find it
11:49<MorgyN>If you have a patch, if no one else can test, and if you can find it...
11:49<MorgyN>maybe you can hire...
11:49<Chrill>hire Poles, they're the cheapest
11:49<MorgyN>Not anymore
11:50<Chrill>Well, the Baltics then?
11:50<Chrill>Fine, bring me a Lithuanian one
11:50<MorgyN>*snaps fingers*
11:50<MorgyN>Hedonism, on a budget.
11:52<Eddi|zuHause2>you can use draakon :p
11:53<+glx>wrong country Eddi|zuHause2
11:53<@Belugas>Don't mention that name, Eddi|zuHause2!!
11:53<Eddi|zuHause2>well, it is some baltic thing
11:56<dih>_it_ is _some_ baltic _thing_ LOL
11:56<Ammler>peter1138: reason for holding back? It is that nice!
11:56<@peter1138>er, well
11:57<@peter1138>other than i've not touched any code for two weeks...
11:57<dih>explains the low commit number :-P
11:59<@Belugas>hey... can we have some down time too ??
11:59*MorgyN hunts for the "motivational" whip
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11:59<andy_>hey all x.x
12:00<dih>Belugas, never complained did i?
12:01<Eddi|zuHause2>Belugas: would you even accept a "no" for an answer? :p
12:01<andy_>hello, can anyone help me please find a guide to change the newgrf limit ? =x
12:01<+glx>why do you need more than 62 grfs?
12:01*dih pats andy_ on the head
12:01<DaleStan>Switch to TTDPatch?
12:01<DaleStan>But indeed. What glx said.
12:01*dih slaps DaleStan
12:02<andy_>well i downloaded the openttdcoop pack thingy
12:02<andy_>not all the grfs loaded =x lol
12:02<andy_>there was some post in forum that said u could change the limit
12:02<@peter1138>you're not supposed to load them all at once
12:02<Ammler>that pack is only for multiplayer usage.
12:02<Eddi|zuHause2><Rubidium> like a car where you add 20 engines and 40 wheels and 5 steering wheels and then wondering why it doesn't work like a normal car
12:02<andy_>x_x well i only play single xD
12:02<Ammler>you will then load the needed GRFs automatically
12:03<andy_>which grf contains the refitt thing ?
12:03<Ammler>for ECS?
12:03<DaleStan>Which refitt thing?
12:03<dih>look at the grftable where you got the grf pack from
12:04<dih>and read some wiki pages, perhaps hat
12:05<andy_>x_x i found the table, hmm so the max is 62 ? wokie.
12:06<dih>the wooky is in #starwars
12:07<dih>and you might rather find him there as chewbacka
12:07<Eddi|zuHause2>"chewbacca" was last mentioned in buffy season 8 ;)
12:08<@Belugas>andy_: that 62 value is a limit due to the networking exchange. Even if you play "solo" (Han Solo hohoho), that limit is still in place. Plus, honestly, 62 grfs is an awfull lot of stuff. I bvet you do not know all that those are bringing you ;)
12:09<@Belugas>or if some are even useless once some others are loaded...
12:10<Ammler>Belugas: that Limit is reachable since engine_pool
12:10<Ammler>there are some single GRFs with only one vehicle
12:11<Eddi|zuHause2>i expect that number to rise in the future ;)
12:11<andy_>x_X u can change the limit in fios.h ? lol x.x wtb c knowledge.
12:11<@Belugas>yu need to tackle down the network packet code for that
12:12<@Belugas>don't x_X think x_x it would be X_X enough andy_
12:12<Gekz>I dream of an ottd with subways
12:12<Gekz>yes, I'm still awake
12:12<Gekz>at 2am
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12:14<@peter1138>engine pool was designed to allow larger sets, not necessarily lots of individual vehicles
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: people do not always use features in the way they were designed for :p
12:19<@Belugas>their fault...
12:19<@Belugas>i use my car as a boat, now it is sinking :(
12:20<@Belugas>FIX IT!
12:22<Eddi|zuHause2>Belugas: no, more like "i bought this 200PS car, and now it is using 30l/100km while driving through the city"
12:25<MorgyN>far too metric!
12:25*MorgyN flees
12:28<@peter1138>PS -> HP, please
12:29<@peter1138>and l/km -> MPG
12:29<andy_>so many grf's too manyy /cry
12:29<Eddi|zuHause2>indeed, PS is german ;)
12:32<@Belugas>PONDHERR SHCRAFT!
12:33<Eddi|zuHause2>whatever that's supposed to mean :p
12:34<@Belugas>not supposed to mean anything :D
12:34<@Belugas>just sounds like german!!
12:35<@Belugas>spoken by a french speaker, that is ;)
12:36<Eddi|zuHause2>they had some funny german in the last Doctor Who episode ;)
12:36<Eddi|zuHause2>and funnily no subtitles :p
12:37<Eddi|zuHause2>like in "Wiener"
12:44-!-andy_ [~flskgl@] has quit []
12:47<Eddi|zuHause2>apart from the strange accent, the location given is also weird... "60 miles outside nuremberg" places you almost in munich, or like halfway to berlin
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12:52<MorgyN>you give Russell T Davies too much credit =)
12:52<MorgyN>random number + place from history book
12:53-!-mikl [] has joined #openttd
12:53<MorgyN>much like his solutions to problems.. ie "stick the screwdriver", or pick 3 random techical words and pull a lever.
12:54<MorgyN>not to forget his hail mary plays.. such as thinking of one word, or all phones claptrap..
12:54<Prof_Frink>MorgyN: Calm, down, it's Moffat for the 2010 series
12:54<MorgyN>*breathes into a paper bag*
12:54<Prof_Frink>So expect death, and lots of it
12:55<MorgyN>blink was brilliant.
12:55<Eddi|zuHause2>the girl in the fireplace is my very favourite episode
12:56<ben_goodger>MorgyN: RTD was a brilliant writer. his talent departed with christopher eccleston
12:57<Prof_Frink>Hmm, that's a point. RTD: Sonic screwdriver is the answer to any problem. Moffat: It doesn't do wood.
12:58<Eddi|zuHause2>well, if you have a boyfriend, you sometimes need the element of surprise :p
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13:04<MorgyN>ben_goodger: He didn't write much of that season did he?
13:05<MorgyN>ben_goodger: oops nope he did =)
13:06<MorgyN>heh mark gatis wrote an episode ;D
13:06<Eddi|zuHause2>Spoilers! :p
13:08<ben_goodger>apparently some idiot wishes to install a jewish state around Weimar
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13:36<DJNekkid>are callbacks 11 and 12 supported in openttd?
13:38<@Belugas>i think they are
13:38<@Belugas>they are not marked as "not supported" in the sources, anyway
13:39<@Belugas>and yes, they are used here and there in the code too
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13:42<DJNekkid>then it's my code ... but according to DaleStan is my code ok ... hmm
13:42<@Belugas>the only way to know, and i thnk DaleStan told you so, is for you to try it in ttdpatch to be syre it's not your code
13:42<@Belugas>if it fails in Patch, it will fail in Open
13:43<DaleStan>According to DaleStan, that particular line looks OK. I've got no way of knowing if there's a problem elsewhere.
13:43<@Belugas>if it fails in Patch, it will fail in Open <--- no, that's not true... we do have some stuff not implemented by Patch, and vice-versa
13:43<@Belugas>joy :)
13:44<DJNekkid>Belugas: true, but i dont have patch installed...
13:44<@Belugas>not my problem, it's yours :)
13:44<DJNekkid>and again, true ...
13:44<DJNekkid>tho, may i paste a bit of code?
13:44<@Belugas>with, yes
13:46<DaleStan><Belugas> we do have some stuff not implemented by Patch, and vice-versa <-- That reminds me. I have a few variables to implement, don't I?
13:46<@Belugas>yup, so do I ;)
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13:51<Eddi|zuHause2>varaction2 for bridges ;)
13:51<@Belugas>let's go michi_cc, let's go!
13:51<DJNekkid>so dale ... that _should_ be ok?
13:51<DaleStan>Still looks OK. Still isn't enough to prove it OK.
13:51<DJNekkid>hehe ...
13:51<frosch123>DJNekkid: Do you know ?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause2>varaction2 for bridges should (imho) have 3 main usages: flexible bridge layout depending on bridge length, proper pillar graphics on sloped tiles/diagonal rails, and joining of adjacent bridges to form multi-track bridges
13:55<Eddi|zuHause2>where all three of these uses can be justified without using the word "realism" :p
13:56<@Belugas>indeed :)
13:56<Eddi|zuHause2>there might be gameplay-relevant side usages like lowering the speed limit if the bridge gets old
13:56<@Belugas>nice boy
13:57<frosch123>You can add: Reducing sprite sorter problems.
13:57<SmatZ>Bjarni can code "bridge autoreplace/autorenew"
13:57<SmatZ>because who on Earth would like to do that manually
13:58<@Belugas>SmatZ, don't ask for disasters, please ;)
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13:58<SmatZ>I am not asking for it ;)
13:59<ben_goodger>bridge collapsing at TTD's standard animation FPS of 1Hz...would look quite interesting
14:00<ben_goodger>or is it 2Hz?
14:00<@peter1138>Where did you get 1Hz from?
14:00<ben_goodger>from my mind, where I get everything I think and say
14:00<ben_goodger>it's not necessarily that, of course
14:01<ben_goodger>but it seems to be either 1 or 2 Hz to one s.f.
14:01<@peter1138>1 change per second is quite slow
14:01<@peter1138>2 is too
14:01<ben_goodger>yes, I know
14:01<Eddi|zuHause2>ben_goodger: have you ever watched an explosion, or even the steam engine smoke?
14:01<Eddi|zuHause2>that's definitely more than 1Hz
14:01<ben_goodger>observe the smoke from power stations
14:01<Cyclonerotary>its gotta be at least 20 or so?
14:02<Eddi|zuHause2>it's something around 30
14:02<ben_goodger>oh, yes, those might be closer to 5
14:02<ben_goodger>or 10
14:02<@peter1138>mind you, FPS is not measured in Hz ;)
14:02<ben_goodger>yes it is
14:03<Eddi|zuHause2>ben_goodger: did it ever occur to you that it might just be skipping some animation frames due to storage space limits for the original game?
14:03<@peter1138>FPS *is* the unit...
14:03<Cyclonerotary>well hz is fine
14:03<ben_goodger>peter1138: frames per second
14:03<Eddi|zuHause2>1FPS = 1Hz
14:03<SmatZ>frame is a unit?
14:04<ben_goodger>a frame is a unitless scalar, so you ignore it
14:04<@peter1138>Hz is cycles per second. Cycles in an animation loop would be the whole loop...
14:04<ben_goodger>that just leaves per second, otherwise known as Hz
14:04<SmatZ>so you could say that "rpm" is not the same as "Hz" (except scale)
14:04<Eddi|zuHause2>peter1138: 1 screen-redraw-cycle ;)
14:04<ben_goodger>SmatZ: RPM is indeed the same as Hz
14:04<Prof_Frink>Pfft, it's all s^-1
14:04<SmatZ>1 Hz = s^-1
14:05<Prof_Frink>SmatZ: No, 1Hz = 1s^-1
14:05<ben_goodger>1 rpm = 1/60 Hz, etc
14:06*SmatZ slaps Prof_Frink
14:06<Prof_Frink>Except that rpm doesn't make sense for something not spinning
14:06<Eddi|zuHause2>my openSUSE is definitely spinning :p
14:07<@peter1138>my point is
14:07<Prof_Frink>Hmm, if you were measuring the speed of updating a redhat-based system, would you measure in rpmps?
14:07<@peter1138>FPS of 10 Hz is wrong
14:07<@peter1138>it is either
14:07<@peter1138>10 FPS
14:07<@peter1138>10 Hz
14:07<@peter1138>You would say "hz of 10 hz"
14:07<ben_goodger>physicists will tell us to use rad·s⁻¹ but since the radian is 1 mm⁻¹ this unit is the same as s⁻¹ which is H\
14:07<SmatZ>why not 600 rpm?
14:08<Prof_Frink>Framerate of 10Hz
14:08<ben_goodger>peter1138: no, I would say a framerate of 10 Hz
14:08<ben_goodger>FPS is a unit equal to Hz
14:08<Eddi|zuHause2>ben_goodger: but you DID not
14:09<@peter1138>no, you said "fps of 10 hz"
14:09<Eddi|zuHause2>"<ben_goodger> [...] at [...] FPS of 1Hz [...]" <- proof
14:09<@peter1138>er, yaeh
14:09<@peter1138>who cares ;)
14:09<Eddi|zuHause2>wayne ;)
14:10<ben_goodger>I didn't mean the unit, that would be stupid. I meant the popular substitution of FPS for framerate, used to save time
14:10<Prof_Frink>< Eddi|zuHause2> [...] FPS of 1Hz [...] <- proof
14:10<@peter1138>Hz is cycles and a single animation frame is not a cycle
14:10<Prof_Frink>Besides, openttd is a transport game
14:10<Prof_Frink>Not an FPS.
14:10<Eddi|zuHause2><Prof_Frink> [...] roof
14:10<Prof_Frink>< Eddi|zuHause2> [...] oof
14:11<ben_goodger>peter1138: no, Hz is frequency. cycles, orbits, rotation around an axis, frame rendering, etc., all occur in frequencies
14:11-!-fjb [] has joined #openttd
14:11<Prof_Frink>fjb! Save us!
14:11<Eddi|zuHause2>fjb also appears in frequencies!
14:11<fjb>From what?
14:11<ben_goodger>yes, fjb appearance also has a frequency
14:11<Eddi|zuHause2>d^-1 ;)
14:11<fjb>I'm appaering infrequently.
14:12<ben_goodger>Eddi|zuHause2: d??
14:12<Prof_Frink>or decades
14:13<Eddi|zuHause2>1 Sekunde = 1,15740741 × 10-5 Tage <- says google
14:13<Eddi|zuHause2>should really insert a ^ on copying ;)
14:14<ben_goodger>the earth orbits the sun with a frequency of 3×10⁻⁸ Hz. interestingly this is similar to the speed of light in a vacuum, 3×10⁸ m·s⁻¹
14:14<ben_goodger>anyway I'm going to the pub now. good evening
14:14<Eddi|zuHause2>if only earth's orbit was 1m long :p
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14:15<ben_goodger>that would make the radius of its orbit rather small
14:15<ben_goodger>we'd be rather fecked
14:15<Eddi|zuHause2>but then earth would travel at speed of light
14:15<Eddi|zuHause2>how awesome would that be :p
14:16<kyevan>Hmm, I wonder if you could rig a way to make insanehuge maps playable over the internet... possibly break it down into smaller chunks and only have clients worry about the parts near their display? But no, multiple displays would ruin that... hmm.
14:16<kyevan>Eddi|zuHause2: Well, nothing would change down here, except we'd all be dead from hitting cosmic dust and stuff.
14:17<ben_goodger>kyevan: might I restress the presence of the sun, about 3 cm away from the centre of the earth? we'd all be evaporated
14:17<ben_goodger>30 cm, rather
14:18<kyevan>Ok, fine.
14:19<Eddi|zuHause2> 1 / (2 * pi) = 0,159154943
14:19<Eddi|zuHause2>(u = 2 pi r)
14:20<Eddi|zuHause2>then add the fact that both sun and earth should have a radius >0 ;)
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause2>then also consider the fact that the schwarzschildradius of the sun is somewhere around 3km ;)
14:21<rortom>hi all :)
14:22<Eddi|zuHause2>[for the underedjucated: that's the point where the sun would turn into a black hole]
14:23<Eddi|zuHause2>no object with a positive mass can hold an orbit beyond that point
14:23<Eddi|zuHause2>we should totally have black holes in the game, for realism :p
14:23<rortom>good news: python UDP client working:
14:25<DJNekkid>well dalestan, it didnt seem to work in TTDP either
14:30<kyevan>... Crap, Eddi. Now I want to impliment space-based transport :P
14:31<kyevan>It could connect between multiple servers.
14:31<kyevan>Or offline games.
14:31<kyevan>(Well, they would have to be connected to a network with a space transport server for anything interesting. But it could be single player, sill)
14:32<Eddi|zuHause2>yeah, you do that. i'll wait for a relativistic amount of time til you figure it out ;)
14:32<kyevan>Want, not will :P
14:33<rortom>hi Belugas :)
14:33<rortom>@ kyevan that idea is awesome :D
14:33<@Belugas>DJNekkid, now, it seems you have to go back to drawing table (sort of speak)
14:33<@Belugas>hey rortom
14:34<kyevan>(Although it really shouldn't be THAT hard. Just add/remove cargo and money from the game with launches and landings, then have a central server that routes it between games - we'll call it Space Station Sawyer, for kicks.)
14:34<kyevan>The hard part is balancing it so it doesn't just cause economy implosion.
14:37<kyevan>Actually, while we're at it, let's just create a whole openttd-based MMO :P
14:37<rortom>that would be possible with bot im programming :D
14:37<@Belugas>[14:31] <kyevan> (Although it really shouldn't be THAT hard.) <--- muwhahaha!!!!
14:37<rortom>^ :D
14:37<kyevan>ben_goodger: Famous Last Words, I know :P
14:37<DJNekkid>i wonder if the callback 36 interfeers with 11 and 12
14:41<DJNekkid>Belugas: or ill just skip that feature for now :)
14:42<@Belugas>those callbacks should not interfere. There might be something else
14:42<@Belugas>but the hell if i can help you, i'm not a grf coder, or so little it doe snot count
14:52*Belugas rejoices while listening to "Mogwai - Glasgow Mega-Snake"
14:54<@peter1138>yes, do that
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15:12<Ammler>peter1138: your patch is just great, I would like to use that system also for the web config tool. :-)
15:12<@peter1138>what who?
15:13<@peter1138>that's not the latest version though
15:13<@peter1138>it's quite different now
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15:15<Ammler>so you changed the system how you save it in the cfg?
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15:22<@Belugas>pfff... Ammler has been contaminated by Yorick
15:22<@Belugas>or maybe it's the other way around?
15:22<Ammler>because of?
15:24<@Belugas>my point exactly :D
15:26<Ammler>well, never mind :P
15:26<SpComb>what peter-patch?
15:26<rortom>had to extend some python method to be able to parse ottd packets ...
15:26<Ammler>SpComb: presets.
15:29<Ammler>kind of preconfigured NewGRF combinations.
15:29<Ammler>which you can save in the cfg independent
15:30<rortom>i will update the ottd protocol description in the wiki next time ...
15:30<rortom>its somehow outdated ...
15:31<@Belugas>ho... that owuld be nice of you, rortom :)
15:31<@Belugas>Ammler : you're as curious as he can be...
15:32<rortom>mh can a client change server values via rcon?
15:33<rortom>like game dependant stuff?
15:35<Ammler>that's rcon for, isn't?
15:36<rortom>i mean like change game internal stuff
15:36<Ammler>isn't it.
15:36<rortom>what subvention for what etc
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15:39*peter1138 wonders when the next ror will come out
15:39<Ammler>rortom: you can't change those things on SP
15:39<rortom>@peter1138: when i stop coding on ottd and start on RoR D:
15:39<@peter1138>/kick rortom get on with it ;)
15:40<rortom>we have plenty of new features
15:40<rortom>but we have to beta test first :\
15:40<rortom>since it will be very buggy i think :|
15:40<rortom>you joined our forums?
15:41<rortom>@ammler: i mean if i could inject some game-play actions from a client
15:41<@peter1138>i haven't
15:42<@peter1138>but i shall
15:42<rortom>if you do then i can get you invited member status :D
15:42<rortom>means: beta test in a month or so ...
15:42<@peter1138>:D :D
15:42<@peter1138>Hey, peter1138, you have 0 messages, 0 are new.
15:42<@peter1138>Total time logged in: 0 minutes.
15:43<@peter1138>that was simple
15:43<rortom>let me upgrade you ;)
15:43<rortom>done :)
15:43<rortom>enjoy reading the wonders of invited ;)
15:46<Sacro>zomg, rortom
15:46<Sacro><3 ror
15:47*rortom also :)
15:50<rortom>so any leading dev want also backstage passes? :)
15:50<@peter1138>backstage pass eh?
15:50<rortom>invited member status at our forums ;)
15:50-!-Mirrakor [] has joined #openttd
15:51<rortom>only those >
15:51<@Belugas>where do I sign up?
15:51<Sacro>I'm Bjarni
15:51<@peter1138>ah, right :)
15:51<Sacro>but I changed nicks
15:51<@Belugas>... and you can't kick randomly anymore :D
15:52<@peter1138>and you're not danish any more
15:52<@peter1138>and you're jokes are... um..
15:52<Sacro>I... misplaced my ops and my passport
15:52<@peter1138>okay the jokes are still bad
15:52<@peter1138>another difference
15:52<@peter1138>sacro is obsessed with ladies, bjarni is obsessed with people who are obsessed with ladies
15:53<@Belugas>and is obsessed with gays
15:53<Vikthor>There is ultimate test...
15:53<@Belugas>and always has a story to tell starting by "Reminds me..."
15:54<Vikthor>see, if it was Bjarni i would be kicked now
15:54<@peter1138>isaac eiland-hall gets around a bit
15:54<Sacro>Reminds me, where did I put my ops...
15:54<rortom>@peter1138 mh?
15:54<@peter1138>. o O ( simutrans )
15:54<+glx>@kick Sacro you're not who you say you are
15:54-!-Sacro was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [you're not who you say you are]
15:54-!-Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
15:54<Sacro>glx: lies
15:55<rortom>@peter1138 isaac is one of our admins :D
15:55<@Belugas>rortom, done
15:55<rortom>profile upgraded :)
15:57<@peter1138>time for more ror ;)
15:58<@Belugas>my wife will kill me...
16:00<@Belugas>never mind :)
16:02<rortom>as peter might have noticed, we have #RigsOfRods on quakenet :)
16:03<@peter1138>a reason to go back ;)
16:04<Ammler>just wait, if he knows oftc better, he might tranfer it also... :-)
16:05<Ammler>rortom: quakenet doesn't support Autopilot :-(
16:06<rortom>that explains it
16:06<rortom>why that?
16:06<Ammler>well, we wouldn't use it, if it would :P
16:07<Ammler>strange behavier of the IRC module.
16:07<Ammler>some IRC servers won't work with it like quakenet or euric
16:07<rortom>thats strange
16:08<rortom>so i guess i will have to track down that on my own ...
16:08<Ammler>well, long time ago, we checked last time, might have changed.
16:08<rortom>nope, it just hangs when connecting
16:08<Ammler>if you find a solution, let us know... :-)
16:09-!-Netsplit <-> quits: lolman, ob0t, Ammler, Forked, eekee, @peter1138, TheMask97, Priski, Sacro, wolfy, (+31 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
16:09-!-Netsplit over, joins: Sacro, mikl, Lakie, frosch123, +glx, +tokai, Rexxie, bowman, jni, ben_goodger (+31 more)
16:10<rortom>i hate netsplits
16:10<Ammler>but good timed :-)
16:10<rortom>but good to know that they does not only happen in quakenet ...
16:13<@Belugas>they are not frequent, to be honest
16:14<rortom>in quakenet it happens quite often :\
16:14<@Belugas>wow... a french sub-forum :)
16:15<rortom>yes :)
16:15<Sacro>eugh, french
16:15<rortom>it kind explodes D:
16:15<rortom>i mean the forum
16:16<+glx>I'm reading this subforum ;)
16:16<rortom>not that you all start RoR'ing and no progress on ottd anymore :|
16:17<+glx>I upgraded my ror install 2 days ago ;)
16:17<rortom>i hope your not disappointed of the sped issue
16:24<@Belugas> <-- forgot to mention that the said message should change each time, otherwise, would be pretty boring thank you...
16:25<@Belugas>Fairplay guys.. fairplay
16:25<@Belugas>Fairplay guys.. fairplay
16:25<@Belugas>Fairplay guys.. fairplay
16:25<@Belugas>Fairplay guys.. fairplay
16:25<@peter1138>who what?
16:26<@Belugas>Quarks and his ideas...
16:29<@Belugas>well... that's it for today
16:29<@Belugas>good nigh
16:29<@Belugas>and maybe see you sowmehere
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17:17<Ammler>has ottd something like a Trim function?
17:17<Ammler>I would like to add something to remove front spaces in GRF names.
17:18<rortom>that should be a one liner in c :|
17:19<ln>Ammler: you need to use an auxiliary verb in questions in english.
17:20<Ammler>rortom: something like that: for (s = string; *s == ' ' || *s == '\t'; s++) {}
17:21<Ammler>ln: example?
17:22<ccfreak2k>Wouldn't that remove all spaces?
17:22<ln>Ammler: wrong: "has ottd something ..."; right: "does ottd have something ..."
17:23<Ammler>I just grepped the source for trim and fount that
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17:24<ccfreak2k>Spaces are overrated anyway, right?
17:26<@Rubidium>what about other whitespace characters?
17:26<ccfreak2k>I'll take care of them.
17:26<ccfreak2k>You don't worry about those...
17:26<rortom>what about removeing anything except [0-9a-zA-Z._-]
17:27<Ammler>well, to "high" mor me anyway :-)
17:27<Ammler>just wanted to have Rivers not in front of the list. :-/
17:28<rortom>uhm, Rubidium: i wanted to ask you if i should remove that ottd shirt from my shop ...
17:28<Ammler>did you already sell one?
17:28<rortom>no ;)
17:29<rortom>but i think it would sell if you announce in the forums ;)
17:29<ccfreak2k>I would buy one if I had money. :|
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17:30<rortom>i <3 python
17:30<rortom>res, size = unpackExt('IIBBBzzBBBBBzHHBB', content[offset:])
17:30<rortom>that unpacks your gameinfo packet :)
17:30-!-bigt0242000 [] has joined #openttd
17:30<rortom>I=unsigned Int 32, B=unsigned char, ...
17:30<@Rubidium>rortom: too bad there're 4 versions of that packet
17:31<Sacro>nice t-shirt
17:31<rortom>thats no problem, as you just exchange this format string :D
17:31<Sacro>i might get one for the tt-meet
17:31<bigt0242000>where can i find the latest openttdcoop public server config? the one in the wiki is 8 months old.
17:31<@Rubidium>I'd suggest connecting to the openttdcoop channel
17:32<@Rubidium>rortom: I can't be bothered about the shirt
17:33<bigt0242000>I'm in it already and have already asked. I have gotten no reply.
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17:33<@Rubidium>getting a reply here before they answer there is unlikely
17:34<@Rubidium>hmm, I'm wrong about that... you've already got the reply, you only didn't get an answer
17:34<rortom>does the client have any ability to find out how the server is configured?
17:34<@Rubidium>not quite
17:34<bigt0242000>i was just told to check my gui
17:34<rortom>that would be nice to have
17:35<@Rubidium>well... what information is useful?
17:35<rortom>mh, as server stats everything is useful
17:35<rortom>like every patch setting
17:35<@Rubidium>adding 1 thing gets into a cascading effect where downloading the savegame is more efficient
17:35<rortom>or anything that is written in the config
17:36<@Rubidium>yay for the enormous security breach
17:36<@Rubidium>sending everybody the rcon and server password
17:36<@Rubidium>well... you just said that
17:36<rortom>you would remove some values for sure :|
17:37<rortom>that could evolve into a new udp command?
17:37<@Rubidium>lol ;)
17:38<@Rubidium>adding all that information into 1500 bytes
17:38<rortom>that was i was thinking about exatly :p
17:38<@Rubidium>doesn't fit
17:38<@Rubidium>isn't future proof
17:38<rortom>must be a better way
17:38<rortom>stream over udp?
17:38<@Rubidium>that's called tcp
17:38<rortom>like X packets?
17:39<rortom>i dont want to interfere the gameplay, so use udp...
17:39<@Rubidium>not to mention that not all patches can easily be seen in the GUI
17:39<@Rubidium>like pathfinder settings
17:39<rortom>oh, right
17:40<rortom>then KISS, and lets forget this idea
17:40<rortom>*keep it simple, stupid
17:40<bigt0242000>lol so what would be the best way to get the server config?
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17:40<@Rubidium>so like it is now
17:41<@Rubidium>bigt0242000: ask the server owner
17:43<rortom>@Rubidium: yes, its slim and nice :)
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17:45<rortom>i guess the first three versions of the gameinfo UDP packet are deprecated?
17:45<rortom>or still used?
17:45<@Rubidium>still used
17:46<rortom>ok, i will have a look
17:47<@Rubidium>with still used I mean: used in the last week
17:48<rortom>oh, is the new format this young?
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17:50<@Rubidium>it's more that people still use old versions of OpenTTD
17:52<rortom>so i should see the svn log i guess
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18:21<kyevan>grah, the way it dumps you when you have network errors is annoying.
18:22<kyevan>It would be nicer if it would quietly reconnect >_>
18:23<Eddi|zuHause2>bad idea... really bad...
18:27<kyevan>Uh, why?
18:27-!-Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: brb, reboot]
18:27<kyevan>Or, if not quietly, then just pop up a box "Network error: Reconnecting"
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18:56<@Belugas>kyevan, what if it keeps on connecting, disconnecting, connecting, disconnecting, connecting, disconnecting, connecting, disconnec...
18:57<@Belugas>you've got the idea
18:57<@Belugas>pff... users sometimes...
18:57-!-mikl [] has quit [Quit: mikl]
18:58*Lakie decides he should use OpenTTD a little so he can be one of these users, Belugas talks about. :)
18:59<@Belugas>you have a dev mentality :D
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19:00<@Belugas>furthermore, if ever there is something bothering you, 9 out of 10 chances you'll provide a patch :P
19:00<rortom>noticed the same thin on RoR
19:01*Lakie looks at OpenTTD and wonders if he should start trying to plan how to add enhancedtunnels but having the devs help him work out a clean method.
19:01<rortom>could not play, as i always saw something to be patched :|
19:01<Lakie>Well, I need something to do over summer to keep up my C++ skills. *hides8
19:01<Lakie>And TTDpatch appears to have very little interest despite me trying to finalise the 2.5 branch. :(
19:02<@Belugas>want to help me with my bridge-sig stuff?
19:02<Lakie>I can try? >_>
19:02<Lakie>It means diving into the pathfinder and that wierd signal thing
19:03<Lakie>(The former I'd have to deal with at some point anyway...)
19:03<Lakie>Well, what still needs doing Belugas? :p
19:03<@Belugas>yup ...that is where i'm stuck
19:04<@Belugas>signal updates and pathfinding
19:04<@Belugas>drawing is done, looks cool :)
19:04<@Belugas>as you already know ;)
19:04<Lakie>Mek could get it to draw but those, Mek fleed
19:05<@Belugas>too bad...
19:05<Lakie>Well, signal update is done through "signal zones" or something, which SmartZ wrote?
19:05<Eddi|zuHause2>the custom bridgeheads failed exactly because of the signal stuff
19:05<@Belugas>i remember he did some superb grid-like patch
19:05<@Belugas>all hte landscape was seen as just lines
19:05<@Belugas>Lakie, exact
19:06<Lakie>I see
19:06<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause2, and because Celestar got into real life a bit too much
19:06<@Belugas>or totally lost interest
19:06<Lakie>Ae real life eats up a lot of time
19:06<Lakie>How do pathfinders work?
19:06<Eddi|zuHause2>hm, that was way after it was declared a failure afaik
19:06<Lakie>Are they based off a abstract base class?
19:06<Eddi|zuHause2>but what do i know ;)
19:07<Lakie>(Which acts as an interface)?
19:07<rortom>real life is just an illusion :|
19:07*Lakie deletes rortom
19:07<Eddi|zuHause2>Lakie: YAPF is heavily template based
19:08<Eddi|zuHause2>basically you provide a "find next tile" and a "weight current tile" function
19:08<Lakie>I was wondering because if it was based off 'interfaces' (Java c# term) does that mean tile data they fetch could be different?
19:08<@Belugas>copy paste striked again
19:08<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r13682 /trunk/src/network/network.cpp: -Codechange: -Codechange: remove a now useless variable(dih).
19:08<Lakie>Ie. a common place to patch
19:08<Eddi|zuHause2>yes. those two functions
19:09<Lakie>I mean in OpenTTD and not having to try and alter two pathfinders
19:09<@Belugas>Lakie, i think it's based on abtract base class, yes
19:09<Eddi|zuHause2>no, you'll have to handle YAPF and NPF separately
19:09*Lakie assumes there is an interface to find landscape data?
19:09<Lakie>Well, I mean functions
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19:10<@Belugas>i have built another abstract base class that tried to hide the difference between regular rail and bridges, but somehow, it fails at updating
19:10<@Belugas>al tough it passes the signal inclusion quite well
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19:10<Lakie>I was hoping for a fetch tile data which could infect 'lie' back to the pathfinders
19:10<Eddi|zuHause2>i really don't know why we are still keeping NPF, it's double the maintenance work for very little effect
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19:12<Lakie>True, but maybe NPF does something YAPF foes?
19:12<Eddi|zuHause2>YAPF design goal was to mimic every effect NPF has
19:13<Lakie>I see
19:15<Lakie>Belugas: the problem I see is you'd have to rewrite how bridges are handled?
19:15<@Belugas>that's what i wanted to avoid
19:15<Lakie>I assume by default both pathfinders see a bridge and look for its 'end' and continue building where t go?
19:16<@Belugas>that's what i believe, yes
19:16<Lakie>The "GetOtherTunnelBridgeEnd" function or something
19:16<@Belugas>thus the idea to fool the pfs and make them think they are runing on simple rails
19:16<Lakie>Will this be switchable?
19:16<Lakie>Ie. can be on or off?
19:17<@Belugas>doe sit need to be?
19:17<Lakie>Just wondering why you'd prefer spoofing compared to rewriting how it sees them
19:17<Eddi|zuHause2>how about feeding a z value to the pathfinder functions?
19:18<Eddi|zuHause2>so the pathfinder actually kows he's on the bridge, and does not need to be fooled?
19:18<@Belugas>becasuse uf the wormhole handling
19:18<MorgyN>wormhole handling?
19:18<Lakie>Ie. tunnels?
19:18*Lakie gets some pespi
19:18<@Belugas>tunnels and bridges are acting the same
19:19<MorgyN>I wish you could put signals in tunnels ;D
19:19<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, tunnels and bridges are wormholes from a map perspective, but do they really need to be from a pathfinder perspective?
19:20<Lakie>Tunnels can still be from a pathfinder
19:21<Eddi|zuHause2>not when you plan to introduce bendy tunnels ;)
19:21<Lakie>After all you can't really put signals on a tunnel tile (underground) without rewriting how that works
19:21<Lakie>That requires reworking how to display them and such.
19:21<@Belugas>bendy no wy
19:22<Lakie>Belugas: maybe "GetOtherTunnelBridgeEnd" should become "GetNextTunnelBridgeTileOrEnd"?
19:22<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm not suggesting to try to implement that now, but you might very well plan ahead for that
19:22<@Belugas>Lakie, that is why i wold have loved to get my hand on the grid-like-landscape of Mek
19:23<Lakie>Is it part of TTDpatch?
19:23<@Belugas>well.. with the bridge pool, it's not even a funciton, it's just... look at both ends n the bridge object :)
19:23*Lakie doesn't remember what it is
19:24<@Belugas>Mek has shown me, a long time ago, some screenshots that did not painted the ground tiles, but just a grid, with each tile format been drawn
19:24<@Belugas>it was ...
19:24<@Belugas>magic :)
19:24<Lakie>Well, the theory was that since bridges return a tile (even if a spoofed) it could be used to build a path over a bridge?
19:24<@Belugas>don't we already have that??
19:24<Lakie>Sounds awsome and really useful for somethings.
19:24<@Belugas>yeah, it should
19:25<Lakie>Does it return the tile x in a bridge y?
19:25<@Belugas>just that i've got no idea on how to approach it
19:25<Lakie>And the pathfinder still chokes and dies on it?
19:25<@Belugas>i've not yet tackled the pf code
19:25<@Belugas>i'm still trying to make the signal updater work
19:25<Eddi|zuHause2>if i remember correctly, the real signal trouble was because signal states were only checked when moving between tiles, but since bridges are wormholes, the tile is not changed until after you leave the other bridge head
19:26<Lakie>Ok, signal zones is what we want currently.
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19:26<Lakie>I thought they were stored as a linked list?
19:28<@Belugas>might have some insights from SmatZ on that one..
19:28<@Belugas>meanwhile, if yu excuse me, i'll have a tv evening with my wife...
19:28<@Belugas>see you :)
19:29<Lakie>Because if they are surely just plonking the signal into that wouldn't it for the most part work (apart from obviously triggering the update).
19:29<Lakie>Ok, bye Belugas.
19:29<@Belugas>Lakie, Eddi|zuHause2, if you wish, i'll try to send you the current diff
19:29*Belugas is gone
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19:49<kyevan>Belugas: Then the player disconnects.
19:50<kyevan>pff... developers sometimes...
19:52<Lakie>They have their own obligations sometimes.
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19:56<Eddi|zuHause2>kyevan: what if the person does not look at the screen for several minutes, and only notices it after the 30th reconnect?
20:04<+glx>you hear ding-ding-ding when disconnected
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20:10<Eddi|zuHause2>exactly, and reconnecting is only a couple of clicks
20:10<+glx>and in trunk it's even easier as you don't have to search the server in the list
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20:14<kyevan>At the very least, a 'reconnect' button on the thing would be nice.
20:18<Sacro>that's what she said
20:22<ccfreak2k>Well, actually, he said it.
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21:35<@Belugas>not evident enough, it must be written "RECONNECT" on it :P
21:35<@Belugas>it's a FEATUREUH
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22:19<CIA-3>OpenTTD: belugas * r13683 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Codechange: privatize a function that is not used outside of the class who calls it
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 09 00:00:50 2008