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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-15

---Logopened Tue Jul 15 00:00:37 2008
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04:10<Yexo>good morning
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04:31*Celestar wipes his brow
04:31<Celestar>50 passenger train stations
04:33<Forked>I belive the correct internet response for this is .. "pix or it didn't happen!" :)
04:33<Celestar>you can have the savegame if you wish (=
04:33<Forked>at work, can't load it yet :\
04:37<Forked>but anyway, nice work :)
04:37<Forked>how many trains on the line?
04:37<Celestar>not too many
04:37<Celestar>27 locals, 33 express
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04:39<Celestar>did I ever mention that PBS is awesome? ;)
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04:42<Celestar>can't build two-way stations without it, or at least found no means how to do it
04:45<Noldo>what kind of layout do you have for two-way stations?
04:46<Noldo>can you show a screenshot
04:46<@peter1138>YAPP IS GOOD
04:46<Celestar>Noldo: sure
04:50<Noldo>what is the walking person and that bed symbol?
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04:50<Celestar>Noldo: hotels and something from TTRS
04:51<Celestar>shows only in transparent mode
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05:13<Celestar>Noldo: like the screenies? :D
05:14<planetmaker>they're good.
05:14<planetmaker>was the town faster than you? ;)
05:14<Celestar>yes :P
05:14<Celestar>I started out with 3-lane station
05:14<Celestar>then 4 and 5
05:14<planetmaker>hehe :)
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05:15<Celestar>I'm just ... "negotiating" about further expansion :P
05:15<planetmaker>town is too big for the tree approach... :S
05:15<Celestar>tree approach?
05:16<planetmaker>build many trees. Appeases local authority
05:16<planetmaker>but it has to be in a certain distance to the town centre
05:16<Celestar>the whole map is full of trees already
05:16<planetmaker>you can first delete them - worse than worst isn't possible - and then replant
05:17<Celestar>I consider that cheating :D
05:17<planetmaker>sort-of. It's exploiting the system, yes
05:18<planetmaker>but cheaper than bribing :)
05:19<Celestar>waiting is even cheaper :D
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05:19<Forked>depends on how much you lose by waiting
05:19<planetmaker>yeah. But trees guarantee you 100% success, if town is small enough. Instant gratification so-to-say :P
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05:20<Celestar>not too much Forked, it still works fine with the present number of tracks
05:20<planetmaker>but best approach is to have a small, good bus service: good rating = good standing, again and again :)
05:21<Celestar>I use trams mostly however
05:21<Celestar>especially to get PAX to train station
05:21<Yexo>it doesn't need a good rating, just visiting 5 statiosn every 20 days is enough iirc
05:21<planetmaker>or trams. I prefer them, too
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05:21<planetmaker>Yexo: good rating helps town rating quite a bit
05:22<planetmaker>if you've appalling station ratings, the town is unlikely to grant you anything soon...
05:22<Yexo>are you sure about that? I'll check the source code
05:23<planetmaker>quite sure. Number of stations and their rating influence the rise / drop of town rating.
05:23<planetmaker>unserviced stations are a bad thing, too
05:23<planetmaker>Yexo: it's even IIRC on the wiki
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05:24<Noldo>Celestar: couldn't build any better myself
05:24<Celestar>heh :D
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05:26<planetmaker> <- I'm still proud of my 900.000 inhabitants city there :)
05:29<planetmaker>but questionable wether to call that "realistic" :)
05:32<Noldo>oh no, the R-word
05:32<planetmaker>oh-oh :P
05:32*planetmaker wipes history ;)
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05:35<planetmaker>Noldo: completely other topic: do you think that rivers should be flooding?
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05:36<yexo>planetmaker: after seeing the code I'm 100% sure station rating does not affect town rating
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05:36<planetmaker>hm... that'd contradict my experience, I'd say. But well...
05:37<planetmaker>lunch now. CU later.
05:43*Celestar just found the source for openttd 0.1 or something on his archives
05:44<Noldo>planetmaker: well, their interaction with terraforming may seem a bit odd if they don't
05:45<Noldo>the could be unterraformable
05:46<Noldo>but flooding rivers requires some serious though and maybe computing too so they might not be worth it
05:58<ccfreak2k>"You have too many lorries on the road! Global warming has caused the water level to rise!"
06:04<Celestar>then we need battery-driver lorries :P
06:05<@peter1138>is that like battery-hen?
06:05<MorgyN>lower co2, burn all the trees
06:06<@peter1138>battery-powered you mean
06:06<Celestar>or that
06:06<@peter1138>it's driven by a motor, not the battery
06:06<Celestar>if you propel the battery fast enough out of the rear end of the truck, it's battery-driven :P
06:07<MorgyN>*you have created 5 more coal powerstations, to recharge the batteries, creating a net gain of fossil fuels being burnt* =P
06:08<Celestar>you can recharge the batteries using nuclear wind or PV power
06:08<MorgyN>or just sod it, realise that global warming is the only thing stopping a global iceage and deal withit? ;D
06:11<ccfreak2k>And move your HQ to the highest portion of the map.
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07:14<Yorick>no unauthorised what?
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07:51<Yorick>I'd say the current autoreplace is overly complex
07:52<Yorick>'if it fails, restore the backups', we should check for any possible failures before we start autoreplacing...
07:55<planetmaker>Yorick: I guess Bjarni is working exactly on that...
07:55<Yorick>and I don't think it should keep the cargo when replacing wagons
07:55<Yorick>they don't do that in real
07:55<planetmaker>indeed. Before you go to a workshop, you just dump all cargo at the nearest junk yard :P
07:56<planetmaker>don't mention the 'r' words... - I was told :)
07:56<Yorick>before you go to a workshop, you just dump cargo on the stations
07:57<Yorick>you don't go into a depot with the passengers ON the train, replace the wagons and ask the passengers to get in the new wagons
07:57<Yorick>while they've lost 2 days at getting to the depot
07:57<planetmaker>I've been in such an overland bus already...
07:58<planetmaker>you could either call it adventure or annoying - depends upon attitude and time constraints
07:59<planetmaker>especially if the driver and co-driver don't speak the language of the people of the work shop :P
08:00<Yorick>I'm looking for a proposal on a new autoreplace
08:00<@Rubidium>Yorick: autoreplace without backuping is actually more complex
08:02<Noldo>one thing that I wondered about autoreplace backups, don't know if it's still relvant: is it really more convinient to put the backup wagon information into vehicle pool as it is only stored for a little while
08:02<@Rubidium>it's only that Bjarni's "new" system that actually does make the backup is very very flawed
08:04<planetmaker>Rubidium: would it be an idea to disable it completely code-wise as long as it desyncs in MP?
08:04<planetmaker>(e.g. just a return in the corresponding function(s))?
08:04<Yorick>it asserts, too
08:05<@Rubidium>planetmaker: if by disabling you mean disabling autorenew and autoreplace, then yes that can be done
08:05<Yorick>yes, he does
08:05<planetmaker>Rubidium: yes, that's what I mean
08:05<Yorick>we've had troubles with it in wwottdgd
08:05<@Rubidium>well, ask Bjarni ;)
08:05<@Rubidium>I'm not touching auto*
08:06<planetmaker>:) understandable
08:06<planetmaker>@seen Bjarni
08:06<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 5 days, 15 hours, 58 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
08:06<Yorick>he's on holiday?
08:06<@Rubidium>no idea
08:06<planetmaker>extended weekend :P
08:06<@peter1138>12:51 Yorick> 'if it fails, restore the backups', we should check for any possible failures before we start autoreplacing...
08:06<@peter1138>but you can't
08:07<Yorick>and why we can't
08:07<@peter1138>NewGRF restrictions which you can only test while actually doing it
08:07<Yorick>that shouldn't be
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08:08<Yorick>nothing should only be testable when doing it
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08:09<Doorslammer|BRSet>Attention everyone
08:09<@Rubidium>lol ;)
08:09<planetmaker>He. we found a volunteer to better that design? :)
08:09<Yorick>planetmaker: we found a volunteer to better[/s]rework the autoreplace
08:09<@peter1138>Two methods: Make a backup copy, or make a copy to work on
08:10<@peter1138>Making a copy to work on would seem more logical to me
08:10<Yorick>what kind of newgrfs feature these incompatible restrictions?
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08:10<@Rubidium>ukrs IIRC
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08:10<Yorick>dbset...we got many bugs with dbset
08:10<@Rubidium>(and I didn't play with the rest)
08:10<Yorick>the current system doesn't work
08:11<@peter1138>Bugs with dbset, or bugs with autoreplace and dbset?
08:11<Yorick>bugs with autoreplace combined with dbset
08:11<planetmaker>So far in all games I played with dbset it worked like a charm - unless incompatible grf were loaded
08:11<@peter1138>Right. I don't think you'll have any arguments from us that autoreplace is problematical in its current form.
08:11<Yorick>planetmaker: before bjarni's backup system
08:12<planetmaker>no idea since when it is around.
08:12<Yorick>peter1138: it backed up cargo packets with count 0
08:12<@Rubidium>but... there are 'only' 4 know bugs with Bjarni's new autoreplace system
08:12<planetmaker>all as critical on flyspray :P
08:12<Yorick>because we can't submit bugs on patched versions
08:12<@peter1138>Yorick: 13:11 @peter1138> Right. I don't think you'll have any arguments from us that autoreplace is problematical in its current form.
08:14<@peter1138>Yorick: Indeed. You'll have to reproduce them in plain trunk.
08:14<Yorick>noone plays plain trunk...
08:14<planetmaker>yorick: not true
08:15<planetmaker>we do.
08:15<@peter1138>Even if that were true, what does that have to do with reproducing bugs?
08:15<planetmaker>also the fair play server
08:16<Yorick>because reproducing bugs is quite hard
08:17<planetmaker>he, yeah. I still have this assert yesterday with no idea how to reproduce...
08:17<Yorick>and because the bugs on flyspray that have to do with autoreplace don't get fixed anytime soon
08:17<Yorick>some of them are there more than a year
08:18<@Rubidium>Yorick: what autoreplace bug is on FS for more than a year?
08:21<Yorick>I submitted a fix for 1890 multiple times
08:22<@Rubidium>okay, so more than a year is more than 5 months
08:22<planetmaker>Rubidium: he's talking of mercury years :P
08:22<Yorick>I have some strange time perspectives ^^
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08:24<@Rubidium>and by the way FS#1264 is the bug Bjarni's trying to solve with his autoreplace rewrite
08:25<Yorick>peter1138: you're wrong at the newgrf restrictions
08:25<dih>@seen Bjarni
08:25<@DorpsGek>dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 5 days, 16 hours, 17 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
08:26<Yorick> * When performing the 'allow wagon attach' callback, we have to check* that for each and every wagon, not only the first one. This means* that we have to test one wagon, attach it to the train and then test the next wagon till we have reached the end.
08:26<Yorick> * We have to restore it to the state it was before we 'tried' attaching the train when the attaching fails or succeeds because we are not 'only' doing this in the DC_EXEC state.
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08:33<Yorick>it seems that the whole autoreplace backup is based on the false assumption that newgrf wagon attachement can only be tested by actually doing it
08:34<@peter1138>That's false is it?
08:35<Yorick>meh, the CMD_MOVE_WAGON also tests the wagon attachement callback without DC_EXEC, but then undoes it
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08:40<@Rubidium>not to mention that the wagon attach callback can query any vehicle (wagons and engines) in a train
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08:42<Yorick>just I wonder if I should transfer the cargo...
08:45<@Rubidium>imo you should
08:45<Yorick>do you have any reasons for that?
08:47<Forked>Why not make it so that nothing is autoreplaced if it contains cargo .. (of coure that would suck for passenger lines, unless they had "unload all, go and replace, then if possible go back and fill up and continue on their merry way)
08:47<@Rubidium>the moment of vehicle autoreplace isn't controllable by players in most cases
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08:51<Yorick>is it very expected that the cargo would stay on a new vehicle?
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08:53<MorgyN>don't change that
08:53<MorgyN>because auto replace vehicles would suddenly nom your profit for the year =P
08:54<Yorick>they don't replace trains that are full in real
08:54<Yorick>they empty them first
08:54<Yorick>hmm, only autoreplace if empty/
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08:56<MorgyN>Reality also doesn't have a godlike person who can raise and lower land at will...
08:56<MorgyN>I think keeping the goods in trucks is a minor concern
08:56<@Rubidium>Yorick: in real life a train isn't autoreplaced
08:57<@Rubidium>they just buy a new engine or a few new wagons and remove the old ones from service (over time)
08:57<MorgyN>generally they service them when empty too
08:57<Yorick>a train ís serviced
08:57<MorgyN>because the people who are paying the hauliage firm would be damn pissed if thier 200tonne of coal went missing
08:58<MorgyN>"Yeah we dumped it cause we replaced the carridge"
08:58<Forked>-That is perfectly all right, old chap. Happens all the time.
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08:59<@Rubidium>would be interesting for the international train from Amsterdam to Berlin; they change engine at the border, should all passengers vanish in thin air at that moment too?
09:00<planetmaker>They're auto-converted from Dutch to German :P
09:00<@Rubidium>and the German engine's better ;)
09:00<planetmaker>but do they change engine? I don't think so... lol ^ :)
09:01<@Rubidium>it takes soo long that I think they really change the engine
09:01<@Rubidium>and repaint the locomotive ;)
09:01<Celestar>hey Rubidium :D
09:01<planetmaker>I cannot remember that the last times I took that connection, though... pretty fast :)
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09:02<planetmaker>maybe I was lucky :)
09:02<Celestar> <= heh
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09:02<@Rubidium>it's a timetabled stop of 15 minutes
09:02<planetmaker>hm. ok... - I guess I had a good book :)
09:02<@Rubidium>or you took another train ;)
09:03<planetmaker>na, it was Hannover-Amsterdam - which is part of the Berlin-Amsterdam connection :)
09:04<planetmaker>IC xy
09:04<planetmaker>no ICE, though :(
09:04<@Rubidium>I really hate what they've done with that connection though
09:05<@Rubidium>they made the train stop more often
09:06<@Rubidium>meaning Hengelo->Amersfoort takes 15 minutes more
09:06<@Rubidium>and they made it part of the 'normal' timetable
09:06<planetmaker>eh, yeah. Last time I travelled there, they had the train end at Amersfoort :S
09:06<Sacro>Celestar: is that YAPP?
09:06<planetmaker>due to being late. hehe... :(
09:06<@Rubidium>meaning that if that train has a delay (which it usually has) there is no backup
09:06<Celestar>Sacro: yes
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09:07<@Rubidium>you have to wait 30 minutes for the next train which might even have to wait for the delayed international train
09:07<Sacro>Celestar: you might be better moving the sighnal from the end line
09:07<Sacro>top even
09:07<planetmaker>Rubidium: indeed
09:07<@Rubidium>previously if the international train had a delay you could get on a train and arrive at Amersfoort only 15 minutes later instead of 30
09:08<Yorick>Rubidium: Hilversum->Utrecht now takes some less
09:08<@Rubidium>and all in all it means that my average traveltime increased by over 30 minutes
09:09<@Rubidium>and I'm actively avoiding that train now
09:10<planetmaker>^ Does that help? e.g. are there quicker connections for you?
09:10<@Rubidium>yes, as the chance of delay gets reduced by ~90%
09:10<@Rubidium>though the connection is still 30 minutes longer than before
09:11<planetmaker>He. That's called "improved service", I guess
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09:11<@Rubidium>and when the international train now has a delay it usually ends up with 90 minutes delay w.r.t. when the international train drove sanely
09:11<@Rubidium>(and I would've taken that train)
09:12<@Rubidium>Celestar: that network isn't that complex and you've got plenty of space there
09:13<Celestar>Rubidium: no, it's not complex
09:13<Celestar>Rubidium: but I can finally build my beloved 2-way stations :D
09:13<@Rubidium>you had seen my map already, right?
09:14<Celestar>Rubidium: how much is your transported cargo units on that map?
09:14<Yorick>I think i'll use the idea of working on a copy of the train
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09:14<Yorick>and instead of modifying one, just add one, and if it's complete, remove the old train
09:15<planetmaker>how do I get quickly the info about my overall transported cargo?
09:15<@Rubidium>performance ratings detail
09:15<planetmaker>... oh right ^ :P
09:15<@Rubidium>pile final is ~460,000
09:15<planetmaker>pile transport was a member zone, right?
09:15<Celestar>I'm only at about 150000.
09:15<Ammler>planetmaker: that was before
09:15<Celestar>(year 1951)
09:16<Ammler>there was no sandbox at that time.
09:16<@Rubidium>pile's map is 1024x1024, mine is 128x128
09:16<planetmaker>oh, even then :) Loooong time ago. :)
09:16<planetmaker>Rubidium: you try to really squeeze out the map, eh? :)
09:16<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yup
09:17<planetmaker>Celestar: early name of public server
09:17<@Rubidium>and the main problem with a small map is that there's not enough space
09:18<planetmaker>Rubidium: I easily believe the "not enough space" :)
09:19<Celestar>Rubidium: how many stations on that map?
09:19<Yorick>'that's an old version of isr
09:20<@Rubidium>15-20-ish excluding oil rigs
09:21<Celestar>I'm curently trying to deal with 72 passenger-only-train stations
09:22<planetmaker>Rubidium: nice :) But I see a lot of station walking there, too :)
09:22<planetmaker>do you transport pax only by ship?
09:23<@Rubidium>not enough space for a train network
09:23<planetmaker>but I like your extensive use of ships.
09:23<planetmaker>Rubidium: but tram might work :) Or blimps
09:23<planetmaker>Horse carriage :)
09:23<@Rubidium>planetmaker: tried that
09:23<@Rubidium>but the throughput of the stations wasn't enough
09:24<Celestar>I need some kind of throughput monitor
09:24<planetmaker>:) I'd maybe use them very short-range to transfer to the ship terminal
09:24<@Rubidium>trams couldn't get loaded/unloaded quickly enough
09:24<Yorick>articulated trams?
09:25<@Rubidium>and with ships you can have 50 loading at the same time
09:25<@Rubidium>and with a capacity more than a tram that's really worth it
09:25<Yorick>if you turn off queing
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09:25<@Rubidium>and with ships the footprint on the map is smaller
09:27<Celestar>meh one train with 31 orders in its list
09:28<planetmaker>[15:26] <planetmaker> bugger. Our server crashed: Error: NOT_REACHED triggered at line 101 of /home/openttd/svn-public/src/vehicle_gui.h
09:28<planetmaker>[15:26] <planetmaker> openttd: /home/openttd/svn-public/src/openttd.cpp:142: void error(const char*, ...): Assertion `0' failed. (r13697)
09:28<planetmaker>[15:26] <planetmaker> we'll try to re-produce...
09:28<planetmaker>had that yesterday with my client only... but couldn't reproduce it...
09:29<yexo>the server crahsed in vehicle_gui.h?
09:29<Yorick>so did all the clients
09:30<Celestar>crap I overloaded one of my station
09:30<Yorick>static inline WindowClass GetWindowClassForVehicleType(VehicleType vt)
09:30<Yorick>probably a command that calls it
09:31<planetmaker>server didn't crash yesterday, only clients
09:32<yexo><Yorick> probably a command that calls it <- no, because in that case the clients wouldn't have crashed, because the server had already crashed before the command was send to the clients
09:32<Yorick>would a server care about (closing?) windows?
09:33<yexo>it shouldn't
09:33<@Rubidium>it actually does
09:34<planetmaker>should I post this without a clue how to re-produce on flyspray?
09:34<@Rubidium>if you want it to be closed with unreproducable, then yes. If you want it fixed, then no
09:34<planetmaker>I'd feel a bit... bad about that as it probably won't be much of a helpful post... :D ^
09:35<@Rubidium>though I suspect it's auto* related
09:35<planetmaker>not sure... but maybe
09:35<Yorick>like on a DISASTER/CRASHED vehicle
09:35<Yorick>there was something with a crash on the order gui...
09:36<@Rubidium>it's way more likely that it was an invalid vehicle it was called on
09:36<Celestar>ok closing in on 200000 deliverd units of cargo
09:37<planetmaker>how does it work, if some people have autorenew switched on, some not?
09:38<@peter1138>it's per company
09:38<Yorick>but not synced per company
09:38<Yorick>I suspect it's a command a client sends out
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09:38<planetmaker>peter1138: what happens, if the server gets different info for one company?
09:39<@peter1138>it doesn't
09:39<@Rubidium>Yorick's suspicions are flawed again
09:39<Yorick>I suspected that
09:39<yexo><yexo> <Yorick> probably a command that calls it <- no, because in that case the clients wouldn't have crashed, because the server had already crashed before the command was send to the clients
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09:40<@Rubidium>using wwwottdgdwhatever?
09:40<Yorick>I think it's an auto* relate thing
09:40<Yorick>R: no
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09:40<Yorick>just trunk
09:40<yexo>if the crash would happen in a command, the server would have crashed before it was able to send the command to all clients
09:40<planetmaker>how is one able to produce invalid vehicles, Rubidium ?
09:40<yexo>so the clients wouldn't crash, but just get a "server exited" or so
09:40<planetmaker>Rubidium: no, we're using r13697 on the server w/o mods
09:40<@Rubidium>Vehicle *v = valid_vehicle; delete v; v->type == INVALID
09:41<@Rubidium>i.e. just by deleting vehicles
09:41<planetmaker>so... on person working on a vehicle, the other deleting it?
09:41<@Rubidium>which happens during auto*
09:41<planetmaker>oh, right
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09:41<@Rubidium>but also during that
09:42<planetmaker>is there a way to forbid the server to use auto* in current trunks?
09:42<@Rubidium>but in that case one command would fail and remove the vehicle and such from the depot
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09:42<planetmaker>or is that the "wait for Bjarni"? :)
09:42<Yorick>planetmaker: if (cp->cmd & 0xff == CMD_SET_AUTOREPLACE) return
09:42<planetmaker>Yorick: I don't feel like patching the ps...
09:43<Yorick>you do feel like desyncing?
09:43<planetmaker>it's (also) supposed to be a trunk test server - at least in my eyes.
09:44<Yorick>how does v->cargo_type work with multicargo stuff (planes)
09:44<@peter1138>multiple v
09:44<planetmaker>I don't want to lose the support here with using patched versions :)
09:45<Yorick>planetmaker: ps was long time patched for 11 clients
09:45<planetmaker>Yorick: ... _was_ ...
09:45<Yorick>peter1138: what do you mean?
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09:45<yexo>Yorick: for planes the '
09:46<yexo>shadow is another vehicle with the second cargo_type
09:46<Yorick>and roadvehicles?
09:46<yexo>is it possible to have road vehicels with multiple cargo types?
09:46<Yorick>ok, only planes
09:47<Yorick>but it's a silly way...
09:47<@peter1138>Tough, that's how it's done.
09:47<@Rubidium>why is it actually silly?
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09:48<@peter1138>Rework for the sake of it?
09:48<Yorick>using the shadow for anything useful
09:49<@Rubidium>peter1138: more like rework for the sake of complexifying already complex functions
09:49<@Rubidium>like the refit and cargo loading/unloading/payment functions
09:49<Yorick>and what is cargo_type filled with on trains?
09:50<Yorick>the engine cargo?
09:50<@Rubidium>the cargo type of the wagon/engine
09:50<@Rubidium>and for ships it's the cargo type of the ship
09:50<Yorick>and roadvehicles the cargotype of the first part?
09:51<@Rubidium>and for road vehicles it's the cargo type of the road vehicle's articulated part
09:51<@Rubidium>(also the case for articulated train engines/wagons though)
09:51<Yorick>I wonder if the bug where only the first part of the articulated vehicle got refitted is fixed
09:54<Yorick>ah, yeah, it is :)
09:55<bowman>why would you need a cargo unit smaller than one road vehicle hehe
09:58<MorgyN>I've never made an articulated vehicles
09:58<MorgyN>When do they come into the game under stock units?
10:02<planetmaker>hm... where would river creation be better placed: seperate call as GenerateTowns() - or included in tgp.cpp ?
10:02<Yorick>sererate call
10:02<Celestar>meh I think I have overloaded my network
10:02<Celestar>trains are getting lost
10:02<Yorick>planetmaker: you're building that?
10:03<planetmaker>tgp.cpp might have the advantage, that I have there the height map and a gradient is easier calculated :)
10:03<planetmaker>Yorick: no. I'm just thinking
10:03<Yorick>you should make lively rivers then
10:03<planetmaker>I'm not building anything unless I made some serious progress on it :)
10:03<planetmaker>Yorick: I won't
10:03<planetmaker>_IF_ I make rivers, I only place them
10:04<planetmaker>making them lively _might_ be a 2nd step. But first the first has to be made
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10:07<Celestar>:S I need faster trains :S
10:07<Yorick>planetmaker: the lively spec includes only placing a source, then they generate themselves
10:09<Yorick>if an aircraft gets refitted, it can then only carry ONE cargo, true?
10:11<Celestar>Yorick: normal planes can carry either passengers and cargo, or cargo only. Except small planes (<100 seats) who normally carry passengers only or cargo only
10:11<Yorick>and how about newgrfs?
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10:18<planetmaker>Yorick: but lively rivers is an ingame functionality - with much higher impact. Creation of rivers is on thing which needs doing anyway
10:19<planetmaker>and the problem with lively rivers is how you avoid having stub river mouths, if you cut it.
10:20<Yorick>good luck :)
10:21<planetmaker>my idea is to use some kind of max. gradient approach on a possibly somewhat smoothed terrain... and some random noise on top of it
10:21<planetmaker>so far: just ideas.
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10:23<Yorick> <-- my idea
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10:30<@Rubidium>Yorick: closing windows is a bad idea
10:30<Yorick>some invalid parts might be opened
10:31<Yorick>refit window, for example
10:31<@Rubidium>invalidate the data of that window
10:32<Yorick>that's all for later :)
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10:41<Yorick>I think we should be able to set specific vehicles for autoreplace
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10:48<@Rubidium>like all vehicles of a specific group?
10:51<Celestar>Yorick: we have that option with groups
10:51<Celestar>man I have more lost trains than the russian railways
10:52<Yorick>I know the groups one
10:52<Yorick>but I'm planning to add a button for a specific train :)
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11:04<dih>oh my
11:04<jez9999>Was any progress made on this patch?
11:04<dih>if it had been updated, it would have been posted there
11:05<dih>if it had been put into trunk, you'd find it in the changelog
11:06<jez9999>i need to ask Bjarni, really
11:07<dih>@seen Bjarni
11:07<@DorpsGek>dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 5 days, 18 hours, 59 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
11:07<planetmaker>@seen B.... --> 2 weeks ago :)
11:07<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: seen [<channel>] <nick>
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11:08<Yorick>I'm currently working on the autoreplace too
11:08<jez9999>you are?
11:08<dih>usually, when there is an update ready to be published, people do so....
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11:12<Yorick>jez: I have just started
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11:15<jez9999>Yorick: autoconvert when you change track type?
11:15<Yorick>reworking certain stuff
11:17<dih>Yorick: why is it you always start working on stuff that others are already working on?
11:18<Yorick>give me 2 example
11:18<jez9999>Yorick: if you look at the thread i posted above, it would be nice if the requested changes to autoconvert were made :-)
11:19<jez9999>then my patch can work perfectly
11:19<dih>mute, autorefit ...
11:20<dih>jez9999: why dont you do it yourself?
11:20<Yorick>I am not working on autorefit, and I was asking 3
11:21<jez9999>3 what??
11:21<dih>17:18 < Yorick> give me 2 example
11:21<dih>so you asked for 3 after you noticed that coming up with 2 is amazingly easy
11:21<Yorick>and I asked planetmaker NOT to include the mute patch into wwottdgd, because it was only for testing purposes, you then discontinued work and planetmaker forgot about that
11:21<dih>jez9999: would you stop that please?
11:22<Yorick>stop what?
11:22<dih>am i talking to you Yorick?
11:22<jez9999><Yorick> I am not working on autorefit, and I was asking 3
11:22<jez9999>3 what?
11:22<Yorick>3 examples
11:22<jez9999>of what?
11:23<Yorick>of me working on stuff that others are already working on
11:23<jez9999>oh i see
11:23<Yorick>dih: the original question was directed to me
11:24<jez9999>how can you be working on autoreplace but not autorefit?
11:24<planetmaker>kiddies, please...!
11:24<jez9999>the two go hand in hand
11:24<jez9999>they certainly ought to
11:24<dih>pm: i need a bigger ignore list i think... ;-)
11:24<jez9999>when i say refit i mean changing wagons, although i guess refitting engines should also be included
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11:34<dih>bye bye
11:36<@peter1138>good riddance
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11:40*dih knows another one....
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11:58<Yorick>shouldn't we get the ordercopy click to the ShowVehicle, so it works in all cases?
11:58<Yorick>(vehicle lists!)
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12:36<ArmEagle>Hi Purno.. I left some comments on the Dutch Catenary stuff again :).
12:36<ArmEagle>I hope it's making sense.
12:37<ArmEagle>anyway, i'm out for a bit, getting food.
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13:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: frosch * r13706 /trunk/src/mixer.cpp: -Fix (r13695): Small typo.
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13:36<Yorick>Rubidium: you don't need to send commands over the network if they're called by the autoreplace, as it's called everywhere when a vehicle services, right?
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>only user actions must be transferred
13:39<@Rubidium>autoreplace is done locally, i.e. not sent over the network
13:39<Yorick>then does the command have to?
13:39<Yorick>I see no trouble at a DC_AUTOREPLACE flag
13:40<@Rubidium>restoring the order backups is done by sending commands over the network
13:40<Yorick>it is?
13:40<frosch123>IIRC the order list is stored per depot window.
13:40<@Rubidium>it's stored only once
13:40<SmatZ>it is stored locally, and in a global variable
13:40<Yorick>oh, that kind of order list
13:41<Yorick>that's a problem
13:41<Yorick>flags are sent over the network, I'd say
13:42<SmatZ>only some
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13:42<Yorick>lets get another flag then
13:43<@Rubidium>to say: here you have some data that is currently invalid, but will become valid after a few other commands
13:43<SmatZ>why not first set all non-conditional orders, and then restore other orders?
13:43<SmatZ>is that too complicated?
13:44<SmatZ>maybe not possible
13:44<Yorick>SmatZ: because you could then still have invalid ids, because of the space the conditional orders take
13:44<SmatZ>you would have to recompute IDs
13:44<SmatZ>but that's complicated
13:44<SmatZ>and maybe impossible
13:45<Yorick>just a flag...
13:45<frosch123>You could set them to order 0, and add a command to edit the destination...
13:46<Yorick>idea ^^
13:46<@Rubidium>Yorick: you are suggesting that OpenTTD accepts data that is invalid at the point of command execution?
13:46<Yorick>frosch's idea is better
13:47<@Rubidium>that'd also be OpenTTD accepting invalid data
13:47<Yorick>would it?
13:47<@Rubidium>i.e. 0: jump to 0
13:47<@Rubidium>that's invalid
13:47<ln>hmmwtf, a Wii game subtitled in German.
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13:48<SmatZ>problem is that you can have what Rubidium said when you edit orders
13:48<@Rubidium>1: jump to 1 is also invalid
13:48<SmatZ>like 1: go to station A ; 2 : jump to 1
13:48<Yorick>why is it invalid?
13:48<SmatZ>then remove order 1
13:48<SmatZ>it would be hard to recover this order
13:49<@Rubidium>Yorick: infinite loop?
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13:49<SmatZ>and jump destination is checked to be valid before order is created
13:49<Yorick>lets just insert a null-order
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13:57<SmatZ>you can use a GoTo Depot order as placeholder
13:57<SmatZ>one could call that a hack though...
13:57<Yorick>you can use other things as a better placeholder
13:57<Yorick>and that's a hack
13:57<SmatZ>what other things?
13:58<SmatZ>well I would call that a hack, too
13:59<SmatZ>though hacked clients would have no advantage from setting ORDER_NULL
14:00<Yorick>I'd say ORDER_NULL would do nothing and just get skipped
14:01<Yorick>it's just a placeholder
14:01<Yorick>and less hackish
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14:09<frosch123>Hmm, am I right that this problem also applies to restoring ship orders which are too far from previous destination (i.e. after deleting some order)?
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14:16<Yorick>I think it's quite related to fs#1890
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14:24<Eddi|zuHause>why not check the orders at execution time instead?
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, no matter how much you statically check them at creation time, you can always have infinite loops and stuff
14:27<Yorick>Eddi: and how?
14:27<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: order 5: jump to order 10
14:27<SmatZ>that doesn't exist yet
14:28<SmatZ>I am not sure if it should be allowed to create such orders
14:28<Yorick>how is that done with copying orders?
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: yes, if such an order is executed, throw an "train x has invalid order" message
14:28<SmatZ>it is done internally, in one command
14:28<Yorick>Eddi: better do that with the order review
14:29<Yorick>SmatZ: turns out there is an ORDER_DUMMY, why not use that as placeholder?
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14:30<SmatZ>simply, I am not in favour of allowing users to create invalid orders
14:30<SmatZ>but if there is no other way...
14:31<SmatZ>Rubidium is the order guru ;-)
14:31<hylje>law and order
14:31<hylje>beware, criminal scum
14:31<Yorick>SmatZ: it would already be possible CURRENTLY
14:31<SmatZ>Yorick: then it is a bug and should be fixed :-P
14:32<Yorick>oh, it isn't
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14:32<Yorick>well why can't they have placeholder orders that do nothing?
14:34<Yorick>the dummy is currently used for invalid orders
14:34<Wolf01>eheh my laments were listened, days, months, years of laments about orders not working as I need :D
14:36<Yorick>frosch: fs#2142 fixed :)
14:37<frosch123>Thanks Yorick, but I am also in #openttd.notice :)
14:38<frosch123>Yorick: task closed :p
14:38<SmatZ>Wolf01: so you are a happy wolf now?
14:38<Yorick>on to the other 3000 tasks!
14:39<frosch123>What do you mean, shall I close all 'feature requests' and 'patches' ?
14:39<Wolf01>maybe, I should try It first :P
14:39<Yorick>frosch: if yapp is also there, and you also commit stuff...
14:41<Wolf01>I want to finish my drag&drop place roadstops, I need it to extend roadstops adjacent to 2 different stations
14:41<Wolf01>like railstations
14:45<Yorick>I can't seem to reproduce FS#2129
14:46<Yorick>oh, you need to redraw :)
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15:20<Yorick>weeh, I got assert-thingy
15:20<Yorick>the same we had with wwottdgd
15:21<Yorick>but only if I do not sell the old plane
15:33<ArmEagle>The plane boss! The Plane!
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15:51<tuxtgz>anyone there who speaks german?
15:54<tuxtgz>my question is still in german very diffcult too understand.. :P
15:54<Yorick>ask us
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>we'll never know...
15:55<Yorick>"" :o
15:55<tuxtgz>year.. should i use a bouncer to chat with you Yorick ;) mh ok
15:55<tuxtgz>i try;)
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>Yorick: what's wrong with that? :p
15:56<Yorick>it's deprecated
15:57<ln>nein, bitte.
15:57<ln>Die Deutschen haben die Brücke erreicht!
15:57<tuxtgz>ok is it more useful(financl aspect) to connect two companies which are far away oder to connect two who still next to each other:P
15:58<tuxtgz>ok in deutsch nochmal... ist es besser wenn ich zwei sachen verbinde welche weit entfernt sind um so mehr geld zu bekommen? oder wie wird der ticket preis errrechnet? :P
15:58<tuxtgz>how does openttd calculate the price i get for a transport? <- thats my question;)
15:58<@Rubidium>wiki->game mechanics I reckon
15:59<Yorick>you can better connect 2 industries that are far away from eachother
15:59<ln>ich glaube daß zwei sachen weit entfernt mehr geld verdienen, wenn du genug viele zuge hast.
15:59<Yorick>it has a distance/time stuff
15:59<Yexo>see also
16:00<tuxtgz>a i see thx =)
16:01<Yexo>Rubidium: what's with all the pages batti5 is creating on the wiki? like ? imo they belong under his user page
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: it's a wiki, edit it :p
16:03<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: I normally do, but with stuff like this (new pages created) I'd like some other opinions
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>when he's saying "new openttd" i'm immediately thinking of Yet Another IN
16:05<SmatZ>Batti5 is probably not fully mentally evolved
16:05<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: No. YetAnotherThings are usally trunk candidates :p
16:06<Yorick>"hi im batti5 & this is my new project new openttd!"
16:06<@Rubidium>Yexo: I don't really care about the wiki
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm, true ;)
16:06<Yexo>other opinions? ok if I move them to under his user page?
16:06<@Rubidium>and new openttd is nothing more than another opntitle.dat and 32 bits graphics
16:06<Yorick>Yexo: is ok
16:07<Yorick>"I Have crated a new OpenTTD interface form the OpenGFX project do you all like it if yes it coud be in the least-es nigtly no?" <-- I might understand more if he made less typos
16:07<Yorick>and it's nowhere new openttd interface
16:08<Yorick>it's 5 graphics changed and useless arrow keys added
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16:09<Eddi|zuHause>of course! those arrows immediately add support for more climates!
16:10<frosch123>Someone should suggest him to add checkboxes to the climates to combine them in one landscape :p
16:11<Yorick>Eddi: :D
16:12<Yorick>and he should use that blowup button for the magic bulldozer instead
16:13<ln>but so yeah, a Wii game *subtitled* in german, is that normal?
16:14<ln>texts in german, but speech in english, with subtitles.
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>ln: subtitles are quite rare in german
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>more common with japanese speech
16:20<ln>the whole concept of a game with subtitles is new to me, but i'm not familiar with that many modern games.
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'm quite certain some of the final fantasy games were subtitled
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>but i have never played any of them myself
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16:37<tuxtgz>what are the advantages at transhipping of passengers?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>you are interpreting too much into this game ;)
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18:56<Sacro>openttd needs a 1280x800 res
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18:59<bilbous>is there any way to optimize car/truck stations?
18:59<yexo>bilbous: what have you already tried?
18:59<yexo>you can add multiple stops or try drive-through stations
19:00<bilbous>I have a truck station, drive through that is 4 wide by three deep and the trucks all want to go to the same row
19:01<bilbous>I always end up with linups and free stations
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if there is actually a setting for multistop
19:04<bilbous>It is this sort of thing that makes me try to ignore road vehicles just as I ignore boats
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>well, the feature is definitely there, just i thought it was always switched on
19:06<bilbous>Maybe it has something to do with load availability
19:07<yexo>I don't have such problems with drive-through stops atm (doing a quick test)
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19:07<bilbous>my truck stop is at a low yield woodlot and the trucks are always waiting...too many truck
19:07<Eddi|zuHause><Sacro> openttd needs a 1280x800 res <- what is wrong with 1680x1050?
19:07<yexo>having 1 or 2 trucks waiting should be enough
19:08<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: too big
19:08<yexo>Sacro: not too big, you have a lot of room to keep several windows open and still be able to view something ;)
19:08<Sacro>i want 1280x800
19:08<bilbous>if you are playing windowed you can scale it arbitrarily, at least in linux
19:08<Prof_Frink>I want a pony.
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: anyway, if your graphics card supports it, it should be there
19:09<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: course it does
19:09<Sacro>i'm running 1920x1200
19:09<Sacro>and i want a 16:10 window that doesn't take up the full screen
19:09<@Rubidium>:O Sacro runs a sane resolution ;)
19:09<yexo>I always play windowed and then maximum window size
19:09<Sacro>Rubidium: meaning?
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: afaik the resolution can be changed in the .cfg
19:10<@Rubidium>1920x1200 is a sane resolution
19:10<@Rubidium>1280x800 not ;)
19:10<Sacro>1280x800 is sane
19:10<Sacro>it's 720p @16:10
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>1280x768 or something
19:11<bilbous>1280x800 shows up in my res list.
19:12<yexo>I have both 1280x800 and 1280x768 as available resolutions
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>back in my CRT days i ran on 1280x960
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19:13<Gura>hi everyone
19:14<Gura>Just wanted to thank everyone who put the amazing effort in making openttd happen
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>@seen everyone
19:14<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: everyone was last seen in #openttd 24 weeks, 4 days, 4 hours, 21 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: * Everyone has aids
19:14<Gura>it's a joy to see this game still live after so many years
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>ooooh kaaay...
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19:15<Gura>anyone has a good link for tips for this game?
19:16<Gura>been there, I am looking for more people specific strategies
19:16<yexo>strategies for what?
19:16<yexo>money making? creating efficient trains tracks?
19:17<Gura>efficient train tracks, priority of goods and their transfer
19:17<yexo>have a look at some openttdcoop games ( and/or #openttdcoop)
19:17<Gura>especially the goods, since I don't want to destroy cities to put my rail station to accept goods in the middle
19:18<yexo>ever heard of stationwalking?
19:18<Gura>you refering to puting stations back to back?
19:18<yexo>you build a 1x1 station that accepts goods, and 'move' the station (keeping the first 1s1 piece in place) by building new pieces next to it and then removing the middle parts
19:19<yexo>that way you only need 1 tile within the town for acceptance and the station can be outside the town
19:19<yexo>but most of the time there are building at the edge of the town that accept goods, so you don't need to destroy the whole city
19:19<Gura>why do they stop accepting goods after some time?
19:20<Gura>and the whole track kind of becomes useless
19:20<yexo>some city buildings accept goods, and some don't
19:20<yexo>so if a building was replaced, it's possible your station no longer accepts goods
19:21<yexo>just make the city grow a bit (or choose a larger city to begin with) and it'll accept goods again
19:21<Gura>when you said station walking, do I need to keep the original one in place still?
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19:22<Gura>and at the end of it my other station can actually be on completly other side away from city?
19:22<yexo>that's indeed possible
19:22<Gura>hmm, cool. I'll try that
19:22<Gura>when you are starting the station empire
19:22<yexo>you might need to set "max station spread" a bit higher (under configure patches -> stations)
19:23<Gura>is the goal to create circle of oil, goods -> city or to put as many different routes gather different resources?
19:23<yexo>that is entirely up to you :p
19:23<Gura>so there is nothing specific that is required then huh
19:24<yexo>I like to build enourmous rail networks, so I transport for example all coal the in the map to 1 powerplant
19:24<Gura>I've played hundred games but I never finished one lol
19:24<yexo>and I don't care about finishing a game in terms of playing 100 years
19:24<yexo>just have fun with it :)
19:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: miham * r13707 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
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19:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-07-16 01:21:36
19:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 fixed by tucalipe (3)
19:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 78 fixed, 230 changed by thetitan (3), groupsky (305)
19:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
19:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: dutch - 3 fixed by webfreakz (3)
19:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: italian - 3 changed by lorenzodv (3)
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20:44<fmauNeko>'nuit all ;)
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21:52<dvdb>i am looking for a trainset which railroad cars have a high passenger capacity
21:53<dvdb>the standard passenger car has a capacity of 40 passengers.
22:03<ArmEagle>well, you can download one and use the grfcodec to change the capacity yourself :)
22:04<dvdb>ArmEagle: my english is to bad to read tutorials and I went on Friday in holyday. so i hoped that there exists something
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 16 00:00:14 2008