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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-07-27

---Logopened Sun Jul 27 00:00:02 2008
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03:09<Artamir>someone can give me a link of a compilation newer than r13501 please¿?
03:09<Artamir>with some patches
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03:20<DaleStan>Artamir: google:BuildOTTD
03:20<Wolf01>there's a svn guru online? I've problems with the pre-revprop-change hook, the manual say to make it executable (renaming it to .bat on windows) but now when I try to change a commit log the log browser freeze and doesn't change anything
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03:35<@Rubidium>Wolf01: is it still called hooks/pre-revprop-change?
03:36<Wolf01>uhm, wait, maybe I *should* not make a copy of the .tmpl file and rename the copy, but rename the .tmpl directly
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03:38<Wolf01>no, that's the same
03:39<@Rubidium>it should be .bat or .exe according to some website
03:39<Wolf01>yes it is
03:40<Wolf01>now the log browser don't popup a warning message, it just freezes
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04:58*Celestar sighs
04:59*Lachie patronises Celestar
04:59<@peter1138>Hi Celestar.
04:59<Celestar>hey peter1138
05:03<Celestar>peter1138: I've just got to get a single line to work and then I'm set
05:03<Celestar>(minus tons of debugging :P)
05:04<Celestar>peter1138: but the route network is built up for existing savegames
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05:12<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r13845 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp water_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r13838): When adding a WaterClass to oilrig station tiles, also make use of it.
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05:16<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r13846 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r13838): Do not draw water borders inside of industries.
05:16<Celestar>why is ##c++ full of idiots :S
05:17<hylje>language culture
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05:20<Artamir>someone knows what is "queue aircraft at airports"????
05:22<frosch123>maybe aircrafts landing in the order they enter the airport holding pattern
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05:22<@peter1138>Yeah, I think it's a FIFO queue.
05:22<Artamir>"track ageing speed"?
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05:23<@peter1138> < tidy up?
05:23<frosch123>build some track and observe what time will do to it
05:23<hylje>time needed for track degrading one level
05:24<Artamir>i don't understand this
05:24<Artamir>tracks spend real time
05:24<Artamir>to build it?
05:25<Artamir>without this option tracks are instantaneous?
05:25<hylje>building is instant no matter what
05:31<Celestar>what kind of patches are those? are they in trunk?
05:33<frosch123>IIRC the first one is called "aircraft queueing' and the second 'grass growth on unused track'
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05:36<frosch123>yawn - why do you always encounter hundreds of other bugs when you just want to analyse a single one :x
05:36<@peter1138>Did you decide if that if articulated part check is unnecessary yet?
05:37<frosch123>I guess it is unnecessary, but there are a lot other pieces in the code that perform a similiar test :p
05:40<frosch123>I did not explore all, but one of the more evil ones was: When an articulated vehicle enters a electrified/not-electrified track, is it powered when the first part is energized, or is every part handled individually. (i.e. artic vehicles with mixed tracktion types)
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05:44<frosch123>but for the most current one: In CmdBuildRailWagon(): "(GetEngineProperty(engine, 0x17, rvi->base_cost) * _price.build_railwagon) >> 8", in EstimateTrainCost() used in CmdBuildRailVehicle "GetEngineProperty(engine, 0x17, rvi->base_cost) * (_price.build_railvehicle >> 3) >> 5". Which one is correct?
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05:46<@peter1138>The >> 3) >> 5 versus >> 8 difference is minor.
05:49<@peter1138>Unless I've missed the point.
05:49<frosch123>ah, I did not notice the 'railwagon' vs 'railvehicle' difference :)
05:49<frosch123>So the >> 3) >> 5 part is still weird, but is not incosistent
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05:51<Eddi|zuHause2>those should really use / instead of >>
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05:51<jordi>blathijs: well, it's standard practice
05:52<jordi>blathijs: to some people it helps knowing there's a new version of their package
05:52<jordi>that's not too useful for openttd of course
05:52<jordi>as you always know in advance what's going on
05:53<ln>Eddi|zuHause2: do not underestimate the 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 per cent speed improvement that bit-shifting gives.
05:53<jordi>but for example, it helps me retrieving the tarball with just one command, I won't have t
05:53<jordi>to look for the tarball at sf and so on
05:53<Eddi|zuHause2>ln: it doesn't... the compiler generates the same code
05:53<Eddi|zuHause2>or at least it should...
05:55<Eddi|zuHause2>besides, last time i checked, the code style said to use / for arithmetic calculations, not >>
05:55<@Rubidium>but is it arithmetic?
05:56<Eddi|zuHause2>it is, obviously...
05:56<@Rubidium>it's just chopping of the insignificant bits
05:57<@Rubidium>bits used for inflation
06:00<Eddi|zuHause2>if it really "masks" bits, it should then be the logical consequence to use GB()
06:23<Celestar>peter1138: I'm basically there
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06:31<blathijs>jordi: But, I think it requires the download location to support file listings or something?
06:31<blathijs>jordi: Or does uscan just try a few increments? (ie, when current version is 0.6.1, the next could be 0.6.2, 0.7.0 or 1.0.0 or whatever)
06:32<Gekz>I doubt
06:33<frosch123>Gekz: there is still the sunos/solaris option, i.e. drop the first number somewhen
06:34<hylje>also java
06:35<@peter1138>The AI has built a Diesel Shunter (27mph) along with 4 3 * freightliner container rakes
06:36*peter1138 ponders teaching it about articulated wagons...
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06:40<Celestar>peter1138: I've got a little summin for ya
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06:41<Gekz>is that
06:41<Gekz>passenger destinations
06:41<Gekz>IS IT?
06:41<Celestar>Gekz: the framework
06:41<Gekz><3 Celestar
06:41<Celestar>or the abstract representation of it
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06:43*peter1138 reads
06:44<Celestar>Abstract Base Class, sorry :P
06:44<Celestar>should be ABC :P
06:44<blathijs>Hmm, I was just about to ask that :-)
06:45<blathijs>That would be redownload, since it didn't get served as text/plain and firefox can't display text/x-diff or whatever it is
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06:47<@peter1138>+ Order *o;
06:47<@peter1138>+ o = v->orders;
06:47<@peter1138>Order *o = v->orders;
06:47<@peter1138>maybe? ;)
06:47*peter1138 grabs a checkout to patch it to.
06:48<frosch123>Is there anything that can be done wrt. conditional orders?
06:49<blathijs>Celestar: I wouldn't indent RouteNetwork_t in its own typedef. I didn't see it at first :-)
06:50<@peter1138>Hmm, incomplete route for adding?
06:51<Celestar>peter1138: that's quite normal
06:51<Celestar>peter1138: for example if you only have one station in the order
06:51<Celestar>it doesn't add loops and stuff
06:52<Celestar>I need to distinguish between debug, warning and errors
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06:53<@peter1138>I assume it knows about unload/noload orders?
06:53<Celestar>peter1138: yes it does
06:53<Celestar>peter1138: about "go via" as well
06:54<Celestar>peter1138: it does not know about intermediate stops
06:54<Celestar>peter1138: because they're never guarenteed
06:54<Celestar>peter1138: it also doesn't know (yet) about cargo types
06:54<Celestar>peter1138: we could leave that to the user
06:54<Celestar>(most will use it for pax/mail only anyway)
06:55<@peter1138>And valuables could do with it.
06:55<Celestar>peter1138: that too
06:55<Celestar>peter1138: heh .. apparently there's a graphviz interface in boost
06:56<@peter1138>So can we make a map? ;)
06:56<Celestar>I'm planning to add some console debug stuff
06:56<blathijs>Celestar: lHow does the reusing of vertex indices work? It seems that it will only work when the AddStationToVertexList method is called with incrementing StationID's?
06:56<@peter1138>I think that other patch actually draws it on the minimap.
06:56<Celestar>peter1138: thought about that too
06:56<Celestar>blathijs: the number of vertices is <= the number of stations
06:57<Celestar>the nth vertex is associated to the nth station
06:57<Celestar>otherwise I'd need to store a map and stuff
06:57<blathijs>Celestar: But shouldn't that if be a while then?
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06:57<@peter1138>@seen bjarni
06:57<@DorpsGek>peter1138: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 3 days, 14 hours, 49 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I didn't have any
06:57<ln>Bjarni: do you have any now?
06:57<Celestar>I've forgotten to remove some old code
06:58<@Bjarni>at least I have a working internet connection now :)
06:58<@peter1138>Different or same provider?
06:58<@Bjarni>actually the problem was local
06:58<Celestar>redownload/refresh peter1138 and blathijs
06:58<@Bjarni>the ISP didn't screw up (this time)
06:59<Celestar>I've got to leave
06:59<@Bjarni>bye Celestar
06:59<Yorick>oh Bjarni!
07:00<Celestar>hey Bjarni cu
07:00<@Bjarni>hello and goodbye xD
07:00<Celestar>peter1138: blathijs: store all questions till tomorrow, k?
07:01<blathijs>If the first station I add has ID 10, then afterwards the graph wil contain a single vertex that should really be the tenth index
07:01<blathijs>Celestar: K, just had this one written already when my laptop power ran out :-)
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07:02*peter1138 ponders making it show on the mini-map
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07:03<@peter1138>Bjarni, we've got a load of bugs lined up for you ;)
07:04<@Bjarni>just my luck
07:05<blathijs>peter1138: Would be a lot of data to cram in there, I guess
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07:07<@peter1138>^ that's what the other paxdest patch does
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07:08<jordi>blathijs: if the files are in the same dir, it's an easy wildcard
07:08<jordi>if it's in different dirs, the regex gets more complicated
07:08<jordi>blathijs: there are tons of examples for sourceforce hosted packages
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07:21<@peter1138>So stationid === vertex. hmm.
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07:28<@peter1138>Hmm, I have no idea how to iterate this data :o
07:35<@Bjarni>now 0.6.2-RC2 failed to compile due to something that was last changed in rev 4105
07:37<SmatZ>Bjarni: what compiler / OS ?
07:38<@Bjarni>gcc 4.0.1
07:38<@Bjarni>and I tried t build the OSX binary (in case you wondered)
07:39*Bjarni investigates
07:40<Eddi|zuHause2>with an iterator, i presume ;)
08:00<frosch123> <- any reasons against limiting articulated vehicles to 100 parts? (== maximum train length)
08:07<@Bjarni>I would say 100 is pretty high
08:07<@Bjarni>do we really need to spend resources on more than say 12?
08:07<@Bjarni>or 16
08:07<@Bjarni>(which by itself is pretty high)
08:08<frosch123>IIRC it was 16 somewhen, but somebody complained about it
08:09<SmatZ>you could use CountArticulatedParts , but it would slow things down...
08:09<@Bjarni>how can 16 be too little?
08:09<@peter1138>SmatZ, that still needs a limit...
08:10<@peter1138>It was 10 originally, which was too short.
08:10<@peter1138>I guess 65535 makes the loop a little long... :)
08:11<@Bjarni>in real life our trains could live with a limit of 4. If that makes the train too short then they connect two sets ;)
08:12<@Bjarni>I really wonder when ONE set needs more than 16 units
08:12<frosch123>Bjarni: road vehicles can also be articulated
08:13<frosch123>e.g. road trains
08:13*Bjarni tries to imagine a sane road vehicle of more than 16 units
08:13<frosch123>ask the australians
08:13<SmatZ>Bjarni: for some "well-known" train consist
08:13<@Bjarni><frosch123> ask the australians <-- the longest I have seen was the truck and 6 wagons, making it 7 units
08:14<@Bjarni>since it transported iron ore it was the heaviest road vehicle in the world to go on public roads
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08:22<@peter1138>Well, UKRS has long articulated maglev...
08:23<Gekz>we have really long road trains
08:23<Gekz>there was one that had many wagons
08:23<Gekz>I can't remember how long
08:24<Gekz>but I'm sure it was more than 20
08:35<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r13847 /trunk/src/articulated_vehicles.cpp: -Codechange: Add MAX_ARTICULATED_PARTS and set it to 100.
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09:11<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13848 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: AIVehicle.GetCurrentValue() (requested by Michiel)
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09:43<Noetloj>Hey, I've managed to crash OpenTTD. I tried using the original generation for land, not terragenesis.
09:43<Noetloj>I got out of sprite errors :(
09:43<Noetloj>(it all works if I use terragenisis - but I don't want that)
09:43<SmatZ>Noetloj: I tried it 3 times now, no crash :-/
09:44<SmatZ>is it reproducible for you?
09:44<Noetloj>I'll screenshot the settings I use to crash it.
09:44<SmatZ>great :)
09:44<Noetloj>and it's done it twice in a row.
09:44<@Rubidium>Noetloj: what version are you using?
09:44<@Rubidium>and are you using 32bpp sprites?
09:44<Noetloj>oh wait.
09:44<Noetloj>Let me update
09:44<Noetloj>and re-try.
09:44<@peter1138>Hmm, old then :)
09:45<Noetloj>two ticks, let me update it.
09:46<Noetloj>Same bug, but now it gave me an error report.
09:47<SmatZ>great :)
09:47<@Rubidium>are you using the dos or windows grfs?
09:48<Noetloj>Those are the settings I used for that crash (Out of sprite memory)
09:49<Noetloj>and I've just tested the exact same on Terragenesis, it worked perfectly :)
09:49<Noetloj>(as in it worked, not it worked and also crashed)
09:49<@peter1138>Does the progress meter move at all?
09:50<@orudge>crashes for me, too
09:50<@orudge>this is 0.6.1 as well though
09:50<@orudge>progress meter doesn't move at all
09:50<@orudge>(using that same random seed)
09:50<Noetloj>peter1138: stuck at 0/2
09:50<@orudge>oh, wait, no
09:50<@orudge>this is using what was the latest trunk with YAPP applied
09:50<@orudge>r13734M, it seems
09:50*orudge can debug it
09:51<Noetloj>Is the bit of screen I get before it crashed.
09:51<Noetloj>(on all 4 crash times)
09:51<Noetloj>So no, no meter movement at all :p
09:52<@peter1138>Mmm, before it's terraformed.
09:52*orudge is just compiling the latest trunk to see if it still happens there, and shall try to reproduce it with the debugger
09:52<Noetloj>I hope I didn't break your game
09:52<Noetloj>oh wait, orudge has it too.
09:52<Noetloj>nevermind xD
09:54<@peter1138>It'll probably be those 'special' sprites...
09:54<@peter1138>The ones that are not used for Terragenesis.
09:55*glx tries too
09:55<@orudge>with no newgrfs and latest trunk, it seems to be fine
09:56<Noetloj>want me to wipe my grf list and try?
09:56<@orudge>I'm investigating
09:56<@orudge>as I had the same problem
09:56<@orudge>with some newgrfs
09:56*Noetloj sits back and lets the professionals work it.
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09:58<+glx>yeah I can reproduce with 0.6.2-RC2
09:58<Noetloj>me and orudge aren't insane.
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09:59*Noetloj switches back to terragenises and goes off to play.
09:59<+glx>trunk crashes too
09:59<@orudge>yes, problem seems to be occurring in latest svn. See
10:00<Noetloj>Tis interesting watching you professionals debug, just fyi.
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10:01<+glx>at least I can get more info now than when using the pdb :)
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10:11<@Bjarni><Noetloj> me and orudge aren't insane. <-- I didn't see any proof of that :P
10:11<@Bjarni>in fact I didn't see any proof either way
10:12*orudge is perfectly sane... on full-moon Tuesdays, when the wind is blowing in an easterly direction
10:16<CIA-5>OpenTTD: bjarni * r13849 /trunk/ (config.lib src/unix.cpp): -Fix: [OSX] 10.5 appears to be more picky when setting up compiling of universal binaries
10:20<SmatZ>mmm no crash for me
10:22<Noetloj>also, this might be picky of me, but is it possible to make OpenTTD not build a big posh football stadium in the middle of a little favela town ¬_¬
10:22<Noetloj>It's a bit odd :p
10:22<hylje>go on and make us an awesome town building AI
10:23<hylje>currently, as far as I'm aware, it throws dice to decide what to do
10:23<hylje>without any planning whatsoever
10:24<@peter1138>Should be possible with a GRF :o
10:24<Noetloj>if you teach me the language of OpenTTD, I'll do it myself :p
10:24<Noetloj>I need something to do for a few days.
10:24*hylje drops a C++ manual on Noetloj
10:24<Noetloj>You'll need to be more specific than that.
10:25<@peter1138>The GRF Specs wiki would be more useful :D
10:25<Noetloj>NFO eludes me.
10:25<hylje>what can GRF not do?
10:25*peter1138 reads up.
10:25<Noetloj>It can probably not run around naked.
10:25<Gekz>hylje: play tetris./
10:25<Gekz>it cant play tetris
10:26<hylje>nor does it come with a pony :(
10:27<@orudge>I like horses, best of all the animals.
10:28<@peter1138>Hmm, I think the only restriction on stadiums at the moment is just only one in a town.
10:30<hylje>change the default max to like 30 and see how long it takes to people notice something's amiss
10:31<SpComb>football city
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10:40<Noetloj>peter1138: can't you make it restrict them to a town/city of like, 2000 pop? (cause ya love meh ;))
10:40<Noetloj>but seriously, at the moment you get stadiums in the most stupidfest of places :p
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10:42<Noetloj>Gah, I can't build a tower for water.
10:42<Noetloj>What does OpenTTD define as a "town
10:42<+glx>a house
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10:42<+glx>it's the only way to detect if we are in a town
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10:46<Noetloj>glx: er.
10:46<Noetloj>What does OpenTTD define as a house..
10:46<+glx>a house is a house
10:46<@orudge>a building in a town bascically, Noetloj
10:47<Noetloj>Someone living in a caravan, or a favela house would class that as a house.
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10:47<Noetloj>OpenTTD obviously does not.
10:48<Noetloj>wow, my OpenTTd screenshot folder is 200MB D:
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10:49<Noetloj>That is now a town with houses? :(
10:49<SmatZ>Noetloj: build it over a house (probably)
10:49<@orudge>try other locations nearby
10:49<Noetloj>over the houses.
10:49<Noetloj> iseee.
10:50<Noetloj>yay, that worked. Thanks SmatZ :D
10:50<SmatZ>np :)
10:51<Noetloj>I've never played with sub-trop before in length :p
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10:59<rortom>where can i find the code for the station gui
10:59<rortom>means the gui that comes when i click on a station
10:59<rortom>not the station list :\
10:59<frosch123>did you try station_gui.cpp :p
10:59<+glx>should be in a _gui.cpp file
11:00<frosch123>struct StationViewWindow : public Window
11:01<rortom>overlooked it
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11:03<rortom>why is tha rating and accepts on two different pages?
11:03<rortom>i would put it all into one page
11:03<rortom>"page" = viewable area
11:03<Yorick>it's from ttd
11:04<rortom>the question is if that is wished to continue like that
11:06<frosch123>ask the portable players with displays like 5x5 pixels :s
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11:17<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r13850 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Fix [FS#2146]: Fix resp. implement refitting of articulated vehicles during autoreplace.
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11:18<@peter1138>+static bool EnginesGotCargoInCommon(EngineID engine_a, EngineID engine_b, VehicleType type)
11:18<@peter1138>Hehe, Bjarni!
11:18<@peter1138>He'll never learn 'have' :D
11:19<@peter1138>Nice job frosch123 :D
11:19<@Bjarni>not true
11:19*peter1138 assumes it works, of course.
11:19<@Bjarni>I already has
11:20<frosch123>I only read the 'Engines' and 'CargoInCommon'. 'Got' did not add anything important :p
11:20<frosch123>Well it works in the cases I tested.
11:20<frosch123>That does not mean there aren't still any corner cases, as I encountered quite a lot :p
11:21*peter1138 wonders what src/ai/default/default.cpp:285-290 are for...
11:22<@peter1138>Seems to count the length but not do anything with it.
11:25<frosch123>peter1138: that code is untouched since ottd 0.1
11:26<Noetloj>lol 0.1
11:26<Noetloj>How long ago is that?
11:27<frosch123>ai.c (modified mar 9 2003)
11:28<Noetloj>wow, I thought OpenTTD was only a few years old.
11:28<Noetloj>like, 2005.
11:29<ln>there weren't computers 2005 years ago.
11:29<Yorick>Noetloj: ludde started in 2003
11:29<Yorick>you found a bit of original unmodified code :)
11:39<rortom>mod to station gui
11:40<rortom>what you think?
11:41<Yorick>what if it goes to contain 37 cargoes?
11:42<Yorick>(it can)
11:42<rortom>mh as the old one
11:42<rortom>just merged into one
11:42<Yorick>this would be twice as big...
11:42<Yorick>does that still fit on the screen?
11:43<Yorick>assuming 300x400 screen
11:47<SpComb>hmm... looking at the client code for the receive-map progress bar, it looks like the server just splits the data up into many small packets, and then the client just updates them GUI whenever it gets a chance during pauses between getting these packets?
11:51<hylje>peter1138: probably something absolutely critical to the system
11:51<hylje>better not touch em
12:04<Yorick>sp: Ithink it does
12:04<SpComb>I guess that's the only option that I have for implementing a progress bar for NewGRF downloads
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12:04<Roujin>hi there
12:05<SpComb>although I'll probably write the server in Python, and not try and integrate it into the OpenTTD codebase yet
12:06*SpComb isn't particularly fond of the OpenTTD network code
12:06*Yorick is implementing it in python
12:07<SpComb>to what extent?
12:07<Yorick>to implementing all packets and know what they mean
12:07<Yorick>generating stats
12:07<Yorick>irc bridge
12:08<Eddi|zuHause2> <rortom> mod to station gui <- the window should also show the "provides" list [not only when building a station]
12:09<SpComb>I was looking towards creating something that only handled NewGRF stuff, with a slant towards high performance
12:09<SpComb>Yorick: what kind of code do you have?
12:10<Yorick>SpComb: working on it in #openttd-python
12:12<SpComb>ugh, threads in :(
12:12<Yorick>hmm, I don't think it's needed anymore
12:13<hylje>old-style classes
12:15<SpComb>what about SpBot?
12:15<Yorick>doesn't he implement irc in a 'proper' way?
12:15<SpComb>well, as a Twisted protocol handler
12:16<Yorick>he aims to...
12:17<Yorick>we recently stepped to a third-party irc-lib, that's what the threads are doing
12:19<hylje>it may be python but it's not written as python. i suppose i'd want to give some patches..
12:19<Yorick>go ahead :)
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12:22<hylje>gee, 400 line methods
12:22<Yorick>hylje: if you'd want to give some patches, go to openttd-python :)
12:22<Roujin>say.. paullb suggested some new penalty for the pathfinder(s) here: - would it be acceptable to change YAPP in this way? I'm currently working on a patch for it..
12:24<Roujin>Yapf, i mean
12:24<@peter1138>There are reasons why it's not done.
12:24<Eddi|zuHause2>YAPF does this by checking signals ahead, roads do not have signals
12:25<@peter1138>Havoc with caches, and other vehicles may have moved by the time the vehicle gets there.
12:25<SpComb>hmm... tricking the network code into connecting to the NewGRF server instead of the OpenTTD server will take some work
12:25*SpComb is learning to hate global variables
12:25<@peter1138>Learn to embrace them. They are your friend.
12:26<Eddi|zuHause2>keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer
12:27<hylje>maybe i dont dare to change names around despite style
12:27<rortom>i modded the gui a bit further:
12:27<Roujin>peter: i understand the problem with vehicles that have moved by the time the vehicle gets there,, but what would be the problem with caches
12:29<rortom>request for comments? :|
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>statistics would be cool
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>not only amount of cargo, but maybe also amount of trains
12:30<Eddi|zuHause2>and still no providing list :(
12:34<@peter1138>Roujin: Vehicles move all the time, so caches would be invalid all the time. Or somethign like that.
12:35<rortom>adding stats seems to be very easy in fact...
12:35<Eddi|zuHause2>well, like i said in the thread, it could add dynamic values for the first 10 tiles, like it does with the first 10 signals
12:37<Eddi|zuHause2>rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 10
12:37<Eddi|zuHause2>the functionality is there, just has to be adapted to road
12:38<Roujin>`hmm.. have to look into yapf deeper then..
12:39<Roujin>don't have a clue how yapf does caching yet..
12:39<@peter1138>Nobody does :)
12:39<Roujin>now that's encouraging :D
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12:42<hylje>if not len(rawcommand) > 0: ..
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12:43<Eddi|zuHause2>you don't have to look deep to find the lookahead penalties
12:48<@Bjarni> <-- will somebody test if this works on non-OSX, non-windows systems?
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12:52<nicfer>city simulation vs transport company simulation, who will win?
12:52<SpComb>does someone else want to write my OpenTTD network code for me? :/
12:53<hylje>i have more than enough pastime with crunching though the code that is allegedly python
12:53<@Bjarni>"I have this great idea and I will start coding it now (one hour later) Will somebody code this for me?"
12:53<@Bjarni>like we haven't seen this one before xD
12:53<SpComb>it looks like having the NewGRF download window establish a TCP connection to some third-party server and then doing stuff with it is going to be nasty
12:53<@peter1138>Pah, just send it in the same way the map's done
12:54<@peter1138>Oh, yes, the map comes from the server...
12:54<SpComb>peter1138: there's so many weird global variables involved that the various functions modify that it's really difficult to figure out what I need to modify
12:54<@Bjarni>SpComb: you want to transfer newGRF files on the fly?
12:54<nicfer>best suggestion ever: flying trains
12:54<nicfer>ideal for belugas
12:55<SpComb>currently it uses libcurl and blocking HTTP requests, now I want to implement it using OpenTTD's network stuff is it doesn't freeze the UI etc
12:55<@Bjarni>didn't we agree not to download GRF files inside the game itself?
12:56<SpComb>I guess you haven't been following the discussions on that matter here last week
12:56<@Bjarni>I was offline
12:56<hylje>that might be why
12:56<@Bjarni>and I didn't plan to be offline last week :(
12:57<Roujin>Eddi and peter: could it be that Yapf doesn't really cache values for the road pathfinder? Because I got it running now and it doesn't seem like it's using cached values somewhere instead of the current ones...
12:57<SpComb>well, I think we managed to come up with some rough ideas as to an acceptable implementation
12:57<SpComb>so now I'm just trying to work on a prototype
12:57<@Bjarni>is it written online somewhere?
12:57<SpComb> <-- you mean the source code?
12:57<SpComb>or the discussion?
12:58<@Bjarni>the result of the discussion
12:58<SpComb>well, we only discussed it here on IRC, so there's the logs of that
12:58<SpComb>I was planning on making a topic in the forums once I have a working prototype to present
12:59<@Bjarni>fair enough
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13:04<SpComb>bit hard to follow
13:06<@Bjarni>bit hard?
13:06<@Bjarni>it's as hard as I imagined :s
13:08<SpComb>but in essence, the idea is to have a central db of GRF metadata - GRFID, md5sum - and then have the OpenTTD client check the metadata that it gets from the server against that db, and then download those GRFs that are found
13:09<SpComb>the current implementation does a HTTP POST with <grfid>:<md5sum> tuples as arguments, and gets back a list of <grfid>:<md5sum>:<http_url> tuples
13:10<SpComb>then it dowloads the <http_url> into a "cache/" dir, and loads GRFs for use with network servers from there
13:10<@Bjarni>but how is that different from what we discarded? :)
13:11<SpComb>having a central db of metadata, and having the offical client check against that gives NewGRF authors more control over their grfs than what they currently have
13:11<SpComb>and in essence the implementation just combines GRFCrawler and the OpenTTDCoop grfpack together, plus some convenience functionality
13:12<@Bjarni>get coding then :)
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13:12<@Bjarni> <-- nobody on linux wanted to test this?
13:16<plakkertjes>can i ask something? :)
13:16<@Bjarni>but since you already did we will have to punish you
13:16*plakkertjes cries
13:16*Bjarni punishes plakkertjes
13:16<@Bjarni>now let that be a lesson to you
13:16<plakkertjes>i'd still ilke to ask itttt
13:16<@Bjarni>you should ask the question instead of asking about asking
13:17<plakkertjes>is the payment you get for transporting a certain type of cargo, affected by how far you go by the train? or just the distance between the two stations
13:18<@Bjarni>the stations
13:18<hylje>station distance
13:18<plakkertjes>ah ok
13:18<plakkertjes>would've thought so
13:18<@Bjarni>you will not gain a profit from making a 200 tile railroad between two stations that are 5 tiles apart
13:19<+glx>you will lose money indeed as the travel time will be too big
13:19<SpComb>what about building a station that's 100 tiles from the industry, and just extended to cover the industry as well?
13:19<plakkertjes>its about the stations right
13:20<@Bjarni>that would need a strong computer if you allow such a station spread
13:20<+glx>the point used as reference is the station sign
13:20<plakkertjes>why would that require a strong computer
13:21<@Bjarni>a high station spread needs more CPU time for the calculations regarding the station
13:21<plakkertjes>2.4 ghz quad core? o.O
13:21<+glx>ottd uses only one core
13:22<@Bjarni>the game is single threaded
13:22<plakkertjes>why not multiple
13:22<plakkertjes>is that hard to code?
13:22<+glx>well it can use a second core for saving and generating land
13:22<+glx>multithread means full rewrite
13:22<@Bjarni>I tried to add a thread but it turned out that the semaphor handling used more CPU power than it would give
13:23<SpComb>(which would have other positive aspects, though, as well)
13:23<@Bjarni>ideal would be a 20% speed boost but worst case it would slow down 10%
13:23<plakkertjes>but why not make it so that on a quad core, certain things are handled by certain cores
13:23<SpComb>bad code -> bad locking needed to keep it working
13:23<@Bjarni>and normally it would slow down the game
13:23<@Bjarni>so that threading patch was never finished
13:23<plakkertjes>2 bad though
13:24<plakkertjes>It never slows down on my computer though
13:24<SpComb>well, the code would need to use less shared state before you could effectively parralelize it
13:24<+glx>plakkertjes: each client must do exactly the same things for the same initial conditions
13:24<plakkertjes>wowwww, this goes to show how much I dont know about coding programs o.O
13:25<plakkertjes>god Im already fine with knowing PHP
13:25<nicfer>what's faster, a 3.2ghz single-core processor or a 1.6 dual-core one?
13:25<plakkertjes>I think o.O
13:25<@Bjarni>are you sure?
13:25<+glx>depends on the task
13:25<@Bjarni>I'm not
13:25<plakkertjes>and also how much cache it has
13:25<+glx>for ottd 3.2 is better
13:25<hylje>multiprocessor stuff tends to have overhead when compared to single
13:25<@Bjarni>the single core CPU would be faster for OTTD
13:25<plakkertjes>:( so my 2.4 ghz is crapz?
13:26<+glx>but for multithread apps multicore is better
13:26<plakkertjes>photoshop =]
13:26<@Bjarni>if you buy a new game in a computer store then odds are that it uses threading and will use all cores
13:26<plakkertjes>yup, assasins' creed uses it
13:26<+glx>and the GPU
13:26<plakkertjes>my gpu?
13:27<plakkertjes>8800 gtx
13:27<nicfer>only accelerates 3d games
13:27<+glx>can help for 2D too
13:27<@Bjarni>I say we might be special by only using one core and no graphical hardware
13:27<plakkertjes>isnt openttd just pure processing
13:27<plakkertjes>for the cores
13:27<plakkertjes>(meaning no graphical)
13:27<@Bjarni>it is
13:28<plakkertjes>for 3d thats not 2 good
13:28<plakkertjes>but for 2d its fine
13:28<plakkertjes>what language is openttd written in? is it hard to learn? o.O
13:28<+glx>well there's some 3D stuff in openttd :)
13:28<@Bjarni>btw there is one use for more than one core. When the game saves it saves in the memory. Another thread then compresses the savegame and writes it to the disk while the game continues
13:29<@Bjarni>meaning you will not really feel a slowdown when saving/autosaving
13:29<@Bjarni>like you risk on a single core system
13:29<plakkertjes>whats 3d in openttd o.O
13:29<plakkertjes>thats not 3d
13:29<plakkertjes>thats isometric
13:29<plakkertjes>it gives you the sense of height
13:29<@Bjarni>it's not 3D in terms of a GPU
13:30<plakkertjes>3d = polygons
13:30<plakkertjes>we'd be able to zoom in and angle the camera
13:30<plakkertjes>thank god tahts not the case
13:30<@Bjarni>but openGL can use the GPU for 2D
13:30<plakkertjes>rollercoaster tycoon 2 = yay
13:30<plakkertjes>rollercoaster tycoon 3 (3d) = :(
13:31<+glx>yes 3D is not always good (look for TTD for PS1)
13:31*nicfer wonders why no-one started a openrct proyect
13:31<@Bjarni>that's due to the EULA in rct
13:31<plakkertjes>i even have openttd on my ipod
13:31<nicfer>I mean from scratch
13:32<@Bjarni>nobody bothered
13:32<plakkertjes>:( to bad
13:32<plakkertjes>i loved that game
13:32<plakkertjes>and doesnt rct use the same sounds as openttd
13:32<nicfer>then go ahead :)
13:32<plakkertjes>I dunno how to make programs :(
13:33<nicfer>j/k = just kidding
13:33<plakkertjes>that would be 5 years of hard work, and you'd have like one rollercoaster
13:33<plakkertjes>i know
13:33<@Bjarni> <plakkertjes> I dunno how to make programs :( <-- well... when you are done then you know how to do it
13:33<@Bjarni>learning by doing
13:33<@Bjarni>that's the best way to learn how to code
13:33<plakkertjes>but, whats the language for all those programs
13:34<plakkertjes>wild gues
13:34<@Bjarni>if you start from scratch then you decide
13:34<@Bjarni>so try ASM
13:34<plakkertjes>google is your frienddd
13:34<plakkertjes>ASM Auto Recycling Ltd
13:34<plakkertjes>probably not it
13:34<plakkertjes>assembly language
13:35<@Bjarni>that's more like it
13:35<+glx>asm is not the easiest thing to start with ;)
13:35<plakkertjes>do i need any programs to do so? or just notepad o.O
13:35<nicfer>also remember that commercial games are just recycled versions of previous games in the series
13:35<plakkertjes>no kiddin'
13:35*planetmaker smells a sadist or masochist out there
13:35<plakkertjes>engine rewrite
13:36<plakkertjes>cod4 though
13:36<plakkertjes>was a nice rewrite
13:36<plakkertjes>(Call of Duty)
13:36<plakkertjes>it had almost the same commands
13:36<nicfer>instead open source games are the same game but enhanced every time more
13:37<nicfer>with recycling I mean when they finish a game they start another one and name it [nameofthegame] 2 or something similar
13:37<+glx>only if the previous worked ;)
13:38<plakkertjes>The equivalent assembly language representation is easier to remember (example in Intel syntax, more mnemonic):
13:38<plakkertjes>MOV AL, 61h
13:38<nicfer>here openttd 2 (or 2.0.0) will be the same game but with tons and tons of new features ;)
13:38<@Bjarni>I can read what you just wrote
13:38<plakkertjes>but the actual meaning
13:38<plakkertjes>is vague
13:39<+glx>no it's clear
13:39<@Bjarni>it's very clear
13:39<+glx>put 61h in register AL
13:39<plakkertjes>never mind
13:39<plakkertjes>Move the value 61h (or 97 decimal; the h-suffix means hexadecimal) into the processor register named "AL".
13:39<plakkertjes>its explained o.O
13:39<plakkertjes>just didnt read on
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13:39*plakkertjes cries
13:40<@Bjarni>MOV is moving one "unit". a "unit" has the same size as the number of bits in the CPU
13:40<@Bjarni>coding ASM without a list of commands could be a bit tricky though
13:40<+glx>yeah code in hexa ;)
13:41<+glx>there are many different opcodes for mov (depending on source and destination)
13:41<plakkertjes>The tutorial is completely focused towards the computers that function with processors of the x86 family of Intel, and considering that the language bases its functioning on the internal resources of the processor, the described examples are not compatible with any other architecture.
13:41<plakkertjes>is that my computer? o.O
13:41<+glx>what's your CPU?
13:42<plakkertjes>intel... Q6600
13:42<+glx>then yes
13:42<plakkertjes>x86 = 64 bit? :S
13:42<plakkertjes>what does it mean :)
13:42<planetmaker>processor family. Same basic instruction sets
13:42<+glx>it's a processor family starting with 8086
13:45<plakkertjes>and the groups of 4 bits are called nibbles.
13:45<plakkertjes>oh o.O
13:45<@Bjarni> <-- aren't there anybody who is going to test this???
13:46<+glx>Bjarni: as already stated it doesn't matter for me ;)
13:46<@Bjarni>luckily there are more than two people in this channel :)
13:46<plakkertjes>question: wasnt their something with a computer that worked not only with 0 and 1 but also with 2?
13:46<+glx>not in a binary world
13:47<plakkertjes>i guess it wouldnt be called binary
13:47<plakkertjes>bi = 2, and binary = 0 and 1 right
13:47<plakkertjes>trinary? o.O
13:47<@Bjarni>Oxford has an experimental quantum computer that can handle 0, 1 and 0 and 1 at the same time (3 stages). However you don't want to use that one
13:47<@Bjarni>it's a 2 bit system
13:47<@Bjarni>and it's like 1 Hz or less
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13:48<@Bjarni>not to mention I think it's unstable
13:48<@Bjarni>and has dangerously strong magnetic fields
13:48<+glx>doesn't use a cat in a box ?
13:48<SpComb>and if you manage to typo your source, it might just trigger armageddon
13:48<blathijs>I think that a quarnary (4-stage) system is used in datacommunications / storage every now and then
13:48<SpComb>hmm... wrong term
13:49<blathijs>Has some nice properties wrt redundancy and ECC IIRC
13:50<@Bjarni><blathijs> I think that a quarnary (4-stage) system is used in datacommunications / storage every now and then <-- there is a 4-stage system used in chip designs because it has a lower power usage
13:50<SpComb>you mean encoding a binary signal using a four-state code?
13:50*peter1138 molycoddles his autoreplace.
13:50<@Bjarni>it's not used much due to tradeoffs though ;)
13:50<SpComb>(as a phyiscal layer protocol)
13:50*peter1138 ponders backporting frosch123's fixes.
13:51<@Bjarni>SpComb: yeah in the physical layer
13:51<blathijs>SpComb: Yup
13:51<@Bjarni>blathijs: <-- can you test this?
13:52<@Bjarni>basically: will it compile or not. That's all I need to know
13:53*Bjarni gets an idea
13:53<@Bjarni>if I just commit it then people will test it for me without realising it :P
13:54<blathijs>Bjarni: I'll give it a go
13:55<blathijs>Bjarni: Why is it needed exactly? And what does this "max allowed" and "min allowed" mean?
13:56<blathijs>And shouldn't configure just set HAVE_BROKEN_ICONV properly instead of adding conditionals there?
13:57<@Bjarni>because HAVE_BROKEN_ICONV setup appeared not to work with the flags in question
13:57<@Bjarni>the min flag is adding something that used to be implicit for universal binaries (but isn't anymore)
13:58<@Bjarni>max allowed is the version of the system it's build on except if it's set elsewhere (which it isn't for us)
13:59<+glx>I guess they are not macros nor define (like some OSX stuff)
13:59<@Bjarni>I have them as defines in /usr/include/AvailabilityMacros.h
14:00<+glx>but you could use a little exe to detect the value to use for HAVE_BROKEN_ICONV
14:01<+glx>or update tmp.iconv.cpp stuff (config.lib:2128)
14:01<plakkertjes>pfft it says I need a compiler, where can I find it?
14:02<plakkertjes>yes. I googled
14:04<@Bjarni>that depends on your OS
14:04<blathijs>Bjarni: Why is the !APPLE there anyway? AFAICS, the HAVE_BROKEN_ICONV is only set when the having a const char* breaks in configure, so why would you still use a const char* on MacOS < 10.5?
14:04<@Bjarni><blathijs> Bjarni: Why is the !APPLE there anyway? <-- to avoid non OSX systems from looking at the flags I presume they haven't defined
14:04<@Bjarni>plakkertjes: I'm sorry
14:05<plakkertjes>are you now
14:05<Eddi|zuHause2><nicfer> only accelerates 3d games <- modern graphics cards (drivers) can also run arbitrary code on the GPU. some games use that for physics engine
14:05<blathijs>Bjarni: Hun? What flags?
14:06<blathijs>Bjarni: I mean the !APPLE in unix.cpp: #if defined(HAVE_BROKEN_ICONV) && !defined(__APPLE__)
14:06<Eddi|zuHause2><plakkertjes> what language is openttd written in? is it hard to learn? o.O <- if you have to ask that, then it is.
14:06<blathijs>Bjarni: (Looking at the current version, without your patch)
14:06<@Bjarni>don't do that
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14:07<plakkertjes>ok eddi
14:07<@Bjarni>I working on a fix for my fix since I realised that this whole issue is due to differences between different versions of OSX
14:07<@Bjarni>so the trunk is broken right now
14:07<@Bjarni>for some
14:07<@Bjarni>before I fixed this it was broken for some other people
14:12<@Bjarni>now I think I know why HAVE_BROKEN_ICONV failed to be setup correctly
14:12<@Bjarni>if I'm right then the solution is way more simple than all the stuff I have been trying so far >_<
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14:16<blathijs>Bjarni: I think the && !APPLE there is really a workaround for a broken configure, so adding more defines to that is not a proper solution
14:17<blathijs>Bjarni: Fixing configure to set HAVE_BROKEN_ICONV when needed, is
14:18<@Bjarni>now I know what's wrong
14:18<blathijs>What is?
14:19<@Bjarni>when compiling a test app to get a result to assign to HAVE_BROKEN_ICONV then it skips the CFLAGS
14:19<blathijs>The configure testcase is wrong?
14:19<@Bjarni>or rather they haven't been set yet
14:19<@Bjarni>so when I build a universal binary the test app isn't based on the correct SDK
14:19<blathijs>That is indeed the major flaw in this configure approach
14:20<@Bjarni>it's all so simple now that I detected it
14:20<blathijs>If a testprogram fails, you can only assume that it is because the reason you think :-)
14:22<@Bjarni>the question is how to fix this...
14:27<blathijs>Bjarni: What CFLAGS do you need? Can't you set them earlier in the configure process?
14:27<blathijs>In general it seems like a decent idea to first set up the compile env and then do tests
14:28<blathijs>Though perhaps the things you need shouldn't be in CFLAGS
14:29<@Bjarni>it's set in make_sed()
14:30<@Bjarni>and it looks weird
14:31<blathijs>"it" ?
14:32<@Bjarni>it = the code to set up the cflags
14:33<blathijs>But what kind of CFLAGS do you need, then? Or rather, what CFLAGS?
14:34<@Bjarni>T_CFLAGS="$T_CFLAGS -isysroot /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX$osx_sysroot_version.sdk -mmacosx-version-min=10.4"
14:36<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i should separate my long distance grain and cattle trains
14:36<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r13851 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Fix (r9393): GetTownByTile() is only valid for houses and roads.
14:36<Eddi|zuHause2>to be able to counter shifts in the production amount better
14:39<blathijs>Bjarni: It seems the -isysroot is also set in make_cflags_and_ldflags
14:39<blathijs>Bjarni: Are they both needed?
14:41<blathijs>Bjarni: Also, a few lines lower in make_cflags_and_ldflags, the -isysroot is converted to something else for the makedepend cflags. I feel that that might be handled better when setting the -isysroot in the first place, I think
14:41<@peter1138>frosch123: ... something actually uses parent scope for stations!?
14:41<frosch123>don't know, but industries definitely not :p
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14:42<Tech-Frog>Is this OTTD as in Open Transport Tycoon?
14:42<blathijs>Tech-Frog: Yes
14:42<frosch123>Is there a nicer way to detect whether we are resolving industries or industrytiles
14:42<SpComb>there's no "Transport Tycoon" in "OpenTTD"
14:43<blathijs>Bjarni: Also, I feel that the -isysroot might be better placed in cxx_host instead of CFLAGS. Not sure, though
14:44<@peter1138>frosch123, uh, isn't it a totally separate resolver?
14:44<Tech-Frog>Well, this channel is about the game right?
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14:44<planetmaker>oh well :P
14:44<frosch123>peter1138: industrytile's getvariable calls industry's getvariable for parent scope, but it shall not be passed further to the town's getvariable :)
14:46<@peter1138>Hmm, I see.
14:52*SpComb yawns
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15:16<Shorttail>Open TTD channel?
15:17<bleepy>yes ?
15:17<Shorttail>Mine doesn't quite work
15:17<bleepy>can get pills for that
15:18<Eddi|zuHause2>your channel?
15:19<Shorttail>When the buses come in, and the money show up above upon unloading passengers, the money isn't added to my fund
15:19<+glx>yellow money?
15:19<ln>those damn passengers who don't pay for their trips.
15:20<+glx>don't use transfert orders :)
15:20<+glx>unless you fully understand how they work
15:20<SpComb>yellow money
15:21<Shorttail>Well what should I do then?
15:22<Roujin>just give them normal orders
15:22<SpComb>don't add weird modifiers to the vehicle orders
15:22<Eddi|zuHause2>Shorttail: just give goto orders, not transfer
15:22<Roujin>without "transfer"
15:22<Shorttail>I played this like 10 years ago and managed to farm properly then
15:22<SpComb>game's different now than it was 10 years ago :)
15:22<Brianetta>Transfer didnt exist 10 years ago
15:22<Eddi|zuHause2>10 years ago it did not have transfers ;)
15:22<SpComb>(10 years ago OpenTTD didn't exist...)
15:23<Shorttail>The order shold just be clear?
15:23<+glx>you can have load/unload (but it's not recommended for buses)
15:23<Shorttail>In the old one, the buses wouldn't pick up passengers with that XD
15:24<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, they did.
15:25<Shorttail>Not the one I played
15:25<Shorttail>I paid to have the buses running, but they never did anything
15:25<Eddi|zuHause2>that could have all sorts of reasons...
15:25<Shorttail>yeah well
15:26<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, your money should now be green instead of yellow
15:26<Shorttail>I love irc
15:26<Eddi|zuHause2>that means it's actually added
15:26<Shorttail>I noticed ^^
15:27<Shorttail>The one I had then started in a mode where the water was lava
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15:31<@Bjarni><ln> those damn passengers who don't pay for their trips. <--- I experienced something like that once. Somebody came up to me and asked if there were crew in the wagons to handle tickets. When I said yes they ran
15:32<@Bjarni>took me a moment to realise that they had asked train crew if there were train crew to handle tickets or if they could travel without paying without being caught
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15:42<Eddi|zuHause2>'s a pretty genious question to ask :p
15:45-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:47<@Bjarni>in a way it was
15:47<@Bjarni>it took me completely by surprise
15:47<@Bjarni>so I didn't realised what happened before they were gone
15:47<planetmaker>hehe. So 'yes' was the right answer :)
15:48<@Bjarni>the railroad realised that certain people figured out to leave the trains when they spot uniforms
15:48<@Bjarni>solution: ticket control from people in civilian outfits
15:48<planetmaker>:) yeah
15:48<ln>like in Hanover
15:49<planetmaker>he. They run around nearly like those ragged alcohol junkies :P
15:49<@Bjarni>funny enough the railroad will not tell what kind of outfit they will be using
15:50<@Bjarni>I think they plan on not using a standard at all
15:50<hylje>else it'd be an uniform, duh
15:50<planetmaker>probably just "come to work in your usual clothes"...
15:51<Eddi|zuHause2>civilian ticket controllers i know from trams around here...
15:51<Eddi|zuHause2>the conductors in trains i have always seen in uniform...
15:52<planetmaker>well. A conductor doesn't need to be undercover. It's clear that he's on bord :)
15:55<ln>i've seen a DB conductor who spoke finnish.
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15:57<SpComb>ln: did he look weird?
15:58<SpComb>or did you hear him?
15:58<Joshuaxiong1>/join #Joshuaxiong1
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15:59<Eddi|zuHause2>/kick Joshuaxiong1
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16:01<ln>SpComb: he was a german married to a finnish woman.
16:02<rortom>hi all
16:02<Wolf01>uhm, I reduced the size of the trains to deliver cargo quickly, and now the industry lowered the production 3 times in 3 months by 40% each time
16:03<ln>Wolf01: why don't you work as a conductor at Trenitalia?
16:04<ln>or, who knows if you do.
16:04<Wolf01>maybe I could make it work better
16:05<nicfer>would be good a game like 'opensimcityttd'?
16:06<SpComb>with eight levels of micromanagement
16:06<SpComb>you could combine elements of The Sims as well
16:06<Eddi|zuHause2>and Mase
16:06<Eddi|zuHause2>Master of Orion!
16:07<SpComb>and some war RTS
16:07<SpComb>with military units
16:07<Eddi|zuHause2>and while we're at it, Age of Empires!
16:07<SpComb>yeah, like that
16:07<@Rubidium>SpComb: you mean a train, ship, flight and car simulation for optimal micromanagement of the movement of your vehicles?
16:07<nicfer>it would be multiplayer, where some players build cities and other ones joins them with rails and roads
16:09<nicfer>well, two-in-one games tend to suck
16:09<@Rubidium>but it'll be like 10 games in one
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause2>you could even play tetrisolitaire
16:12<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause2> Master of Orion! <-- great idea
16:12<@Bjarni>OMOO for short
16:12<Eddi|zuHause2>i think somebody actually started that...
16:13<@Bjarni>"what are you doing?". "I'm playing OMOO... do you want to join me?"
16:13<Eddi|zuHause2>freeorion or something
16:13<nicfer>or else, create a way to syncronize a multiplayer city simulator with openttd
16:14<nicfer>so, when a city is built in [opensimcity], that city is created in a openttd multiplayer game
16:14<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, and let drive trains between different multiplayer servers!
16:15<@Bjarni>looks like FreeOrion is alive
16:15<@Bjarni>0.3.10 was released a month ago
16:16*peter1138 releases some beer.
16:17<@peter1138>From the bottle...
16:17<@Bjarni>it's open source yet they released an exe and a linux binary only
16:17<@Bjarni>where is the source tarball? :)
16:18<@peter1138>So is a good idea or not?
16:19<Eddi|zuHause2>"The orange icon represents trade. Trade does absolutely nothing in v0.3"
16:20<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: source is in the svn, i presume
16:20<@Bjarni>looks like it
16:21<@Bjarni>but isn't it common to release source tarballs with stable releases?
16:21<Celestar>peter1138: you there?
16:21<plakkertjes>question :D
16:21<plakkertjes>does owning a country for a certain percentage have any benefits?
16:21<plakkertjes>country = company
16:21<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: tell that to the maintainer ;)
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16:22<+glx>plakkertjes: not really
16:22<@peter1138>Celestar, yes.
16:22<plakkertjes>why not? why buy shares? to sell for profit later on?
16:22<Celestar>peter1138: do you have a list of comments/criticism? :D
16:22<@peter1138>No :)
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16:22<Celestar>peter1138: does it ... work?
16:22<@peter1138>Well I see routes being added and removed, so I think so ;p
16:23<Eddi|zuHause2>i had an idea how to handle the non-nonstop stations properly: have an "autofill" button on the order list, similar to the one on the timetable list
16:23<@peter1138>I haven't yet made it draw on the minimap, though.
16:23<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause2, train stops at station, adds it to the order list?
16:23<Celestar>peter1138: I'll make it work during this week
16:23<@peter1138>Mmm, I had been thinking something similar.
16:23<Eddi|zuHause2>that allows the user to remove them manually
16:23<Eddi|zuHause2>but it saves the micromanagement to add them
16:24<Celestar>peter1138: I'll also have the pathfinder working this week
16:24<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: a "reverse route" button would help as well :P
16:24<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: like you add A->B->C->D->E and it adds ->D->C->B then
16:25<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe... but i think that is less general than the "autofill"
16:25<@peter1138>Well I shall have a go at doing the minimap, as it means I may understand some of it more ;)
16:25<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, minimap would be great ;)
16:25<Celestar>peter1138: I'll be on for question from tomorrow 0700 (your time)
16:26<Celestar>peter1138: the question is still whether and how to proceed (branch or trunk)
16:26<@peter1138>Personally I wouldn't branch... all that syncing 'n stuff :o
16:27<@peter1138>So far it seems fairly contained.
16:27<Eddi|zuHause2>branch is only needed if you expect heavy intrusion into existing code and rather long development time...
16:27-!-Bloody [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:27<+glx>you can also use mercurial
16:27<@peter1138>Yeah, that may be an useful.
16:27<Celestar>I dunno mercurial, what is it?
16:28<Celestar>peter1138: I might be less contained when the actual cargopacket handling comes into play
16:28<Celestar>peter1138: but as it will (always) be optional, ...
16:29<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd vote for trunk, that way you'll have the most testers
16:29<@peter1138>I just struggled to turn my fan around... with its 25cm fan and 120W motor it's quite gyroscopic...
16:29<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: good point
16:29<Celestar>what's Rubidium's opinion? :D
16:29<@peter1138>. o O ( YAPP )
16:30<Celestar>peter1138: the question is whether to make it optional at compile-time (dependency on boost)
16:30<@peter1138>No, because that'll cause havoc for network play.
16:30<+glx>it should be network safe before inclusion
16:31<@peter1138>Well that's why it's not being based on the existing patch ;p
16:31<Celestar>glx: currently, it is TOTALLY network safe. Might be related to the fact that it doesn't do anything yet :P
16:31<Celestar>peter1138: well, that too ;)
16:31<@peter1138>Boost should be okay as it does not require extra libraries.
16:32<Celestar>glx: I'll promise to do my best to keep it network safe (=
16:32<Eddi|zuHause2>you can disable network if you disable boost ;)
16:32<Celestar>peter1138: we _could_ put the boost stuff as svn:externals ..
16:32<Celestar>peter1138: if we find a stable revision that we could use
16:34<+glx>something like squirrel for noai
16:34<@peter1138>Oh, there are some codestyle issues at the moment, but nothing insurmountable.
16:34<Celestar>peter1138: having YAPP and NoAI and paxdest in 0.7.0 would be awesome, wouldn't it?
16:35<Eddi|zuHause2>then people have nothing left to request for 0.8 :p
16:35<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause2: OpenGFX?
16:35<+glx>that's for 1.0
16:35<Eddi|zuHause2>so you'll have to start insane stuff like shunting :p
16:36<@peter1138>Hmm, what have we got since 0.6?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause2>conditional orders
16:36<Eddi|zuHause2>engine pool
16:37<Celestar>the new autoreplace (=
16:37<Eddi|zuHause2>svn log | grep -i feature
16:38<rortom>when i write {CARGO} in a language file
16:38<@peter1138>Station animation
16:38<rortom>to what is it resolved?
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16:39<@peter1138>x passengers
16:39<@peter1138>x tons of coal
16:39<@peter1138>x litres of oil
16:39<@peter1138>x crates of goods
16:39<@peter1138>x batteries :D
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16:40<rortom>@ peter1138, how?
16:40<rortom>i mean i want something like that for vehicles, so i try to understand the system
16:40<Celestar>peter1138: good night. I ya got question, I'll be on in a bit more than 9 hours
16:40<@peter1138>How? Deep within the depths of the string system.
16:40<Celestar>peter1138: boost's a b!tch in the beginning :D
16:41<rortom>so is there a {VEHICLE} ?
16:41<rortom>and how to ffed it?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause2>also new is the separation of the load/unload flags for orders
16:41<@peter1138>{VEHICLE} gets the name of the vehicle
16:41<@peter1138>New order (hah) gui
16:42<@peter1138>name can be either the user's custom name for it, or "Train n" if it has no custom name
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16:42<@peter1138>(If it's a train, heh)
16:42<Celestar>the new order gui rocks
16:43<@peter1138>Celestar, it takes a bit of getting used to, but yeah...
16:43-!-dih [] has joined #openttd
16:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: bjarni * r13852 /trunk/ (config.lib src/unix.cpp): -Fix (r13849): [OSX] fixed universal binary building without breaking anything this time
16:43-!-dih is now known as Guest4
16:43*peter1138 tests Bjarni's patch ;)
16:44<ln>quite brave
16:44<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm still not convinced of the idea to not allow both "no loading" and "no unloading"... "go via" is not the same, because it does not allow turning around
16:44<@Bjarni>it's always easier to get people to test AFTER a commit
16:44<Eddi|zuHause2>or timetabling
16:44<Eddi|zuHause2>Bjarni: you should really have commited it 5 minutes before the nightly :p
16:45<Guest4>Bjarni, :-)
16:45<@peter1138>Maybe 'via' should have an option for allow/disallow turning around?
16:45<rortom>i get an error NOT_REACHED at line 923 of strings.cpp :(
16:45-!-Guest4 is now known as dih
16:45<+glx>then you did something wrong
16:45<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause2: surprisingly enough this didn't affect the nightly build
16:45<@peter1138>Then you included {VEHICLE} in a string that wasn't expecting it, probably.
16:46<@peter1138>Bjarni, famous last words...
16:46<Eddi|zuHause2>problem is that "via" does not allow stopping at all
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16:46<@peter1138>Yes, because it was designed for waypoints
16:47<@peter1138>And turning around at a waypoint was deemed unfortunate
16:47<@peter1138>I once had two paths and put a waypoint in to make trains choose the less congested route
16:47<@peter1138>But the trains we're getting to the waypoint and then turning around.
16:47<@peter1138>Pom te pom
16:48<Eddi|zuHause2>so "go to" with "no loading" and "no unloading" could be a replacement for that. problem at that point is it does not allow passing through when the train is already late and does not have to wait or turn around at that intermediate station
16:49<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, it'd be a good idea to have "turn around" as a specific order
16:49<Eddi|zuHause2>i think that should be part of future "shunting orders"
16:49<@peter1138>Go to
16:49<@peter1138>Go via
16:49<@peter1138>Turn around at
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause2>that list will get longer very quickly ;)
16:52<Eddi|zuHause2>with "shunting orders" i could imagine stuff like "shunting at {station}, leave wagons behind [with condition (e.g. cargo=0)], take wagons [with condition (e.g. cargo>0)]"
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16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>initially, wagons without enginge could be stored in "the void" [at a station], or on a free platform
16:54<Eddi|zuHause2>they need not be actually moved by a shunting engine
17:02<Eddi|zuHause2>what i meant, that could also include "shunting at {station}, move engine to other end"
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>or "shunting at {station}, go backwards" [for trains with steering wagons]
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17:16<rortom>where is the vehicle actually loaded when inside a station?
17:16<rortom>i mean in the code?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause2>src/economy.cpp:static void LoadUnloadVehicle(Vehicle *v, int *cargo_left)
17:17<Eddi|zuHause2>src/economy.cpp:void LoadUnloadStation(Station *st)
17:18<Eddi|zuHause2>one of those, i think
17:19<@peter1138>Hidden in the depths of FIFO queues...
17:20<rortom>i found it
17:20<rortom>thanks :)
17:21*peter1138 > sleep
17:23<rortom>wait a sec
17:24<rortom>got it working :D
17:25<Eddi|zuHause2>looks a little spread out ;)
17:26<rortom>yes still WIP :)
17:26<rortom>but its a nice addon i think
17:26<Eddi|zuHause2>could you do something like "3 Trains" instead of "Train: 3"?
17:27<rortom>i still have to fine tune it
17:27<Eddi|zuHause2>less blank lines, and maybe write stuff after the : (with line break)
17:27<rortom>it will add
17:27<rortom>like the rating for cargo
17:28<rortom>so each cargo gets its own line
17:28<rortom>and each vehicle type as well
17:28<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe, but i was more thinking like the accepts line...
17:28<Eddi|zuHause2>and it probably needs a second scrollbar
17:29<rortom>mh, yes
17:29<rortom>good idea
17:29<Eddi|zuHause2>i like the general idea of the patch ;)
17:31<rortom>i just feel that its already getting too big to be worth the effort of trying to get into the game
17:32<Eddi|zuHause2>then clean it up and shrink it ;)
17:34<Roujin>good night
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause2>especially split the "backend" part of calculating the stats from the "frontend" part of adding the GUI elements to display the stats
17:36<Eddi|zuHause2>splitting is always a good step for inclusion ;)
17:36<rortom>its clean i think
17:37<rortom>i also added a new vehicle_type string replace in the strings system
17:39<Eddi|zuHause2>needs plural handling ;)
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>Road vehicle{p "" s}
17:40<rortom>you want to see the patch?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>i don't think there's much to see there ;)
17:40<rortom>i think i made somthing wrong
17:40<rortom>or less nice
17:41<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm not someone to give you codestyle comments or something
17:43<Eddi|zuHause2>a question: assuming "transferred" means both "delivered" and "picked up", what happens with actual "transfer"? [by the "stupid" algorithm that cargo would be counted twice]
17:44<rortom>the thing in question is SCC_VEHICLE_NAME_BY_TYPE
17:44<rortom>also it takes everything that is put into the station
17:44<rortom>via UpdateStationWaiting(...)
17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, but "transfer" means it is put into the station once, and picked up from the station later, so the counter would be increased twice
17:45<rortom>oh :\
17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>so upon pickup, you would have to check if that cargo originated from the station
17:46<Eddi|zuHause2>if not, do not count the packet again
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17:49<rortom> :|
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause2>maybe it would help your case if you could formulate whole sentences, welshdragon.
17:50<welshdragon>i would like the latest nightly
17:51<Eddi|zuHause2>then substitute "nigtly" for the "*" in the URL in the topic...
17:51<Eddi|zuHause2>my h key is somewhat broken...
17:51<Eddi|zuHause2>rortom: that's not necessarily new...
17:52<rortom>Eddi|zuHause2: yes, but refreshing ;)
17:52<rortom>also i will leave for bed
17:52<rortom>and thanks for help
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17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>what's going on here? it's not even midnight and everyone is already in bed...
17:54<Eddi|zuHause2>what happened to the "nightshift"?
17:55<ln>i'm not!
17:55<ln>though it is past midnight.
17:55<Eddi|zuHause2>it's not... it's "fünf vor zwölf"
17:56<ln>it's vier vor eins
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause2>["fünf vor zwölf" is often a fixed phrase meaning "the last chance to prevent an imminent desaster" [for example global warming]]
17:59<ln>hmm, that's new
18:00<Eddi|zuHause2>you'll find that quite often in political speeches ;)
18:01<de_ghosty>and propaganda
18:02<Eddi|zuHause2>i have no idea if other languages have similar phrases
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause2> <- an example for the use of that phrase
18:09<Eddi|zuHause2>the english counterpart of the phrase appears to be "minutes to midnight"
18:29<Vikthor>(00:02:06) Eddi|zuHause2: i have no idea if other languages have similar phrases -- In Czech that would be "Za pět minut dvanáct" - Five minutes to twelve
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18:51<@Bjarni>timeout :s
18:51<@Bjarni>oh well
18:51<@Bjarni>it's not like I'm using IRC right now anyway
18:52<ln>or at least a contradiction
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19:11<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13853 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_road.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r13833: he, at least he has the guts to say he made a mistake ;) (Yexo)
19:13<CIA-5>OpenTTD: truebrain * r13854 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_controller.cpp: [NoAI] -Add: added 'null' and 'bool' support to AI SaveLoad code (Yexo)
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19:24<Eddi|zuHause2>that's worse than that christmas decoration house :p
19:39<Prof_Frink>Well yes, it's not TSO
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20:32<ln>gah, finnish news sources are reporting that the Qantas 747 "lost several kilometers of altitude" because of the hole.
20:33<Tefad>the dive was in response to the cabin depressurizing
20:33<Tefad>not a direct cause
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20:33<ln>indeed, a response by the pilot(s).
20:34<Tefad>air is thin at 20kft
20:35<ln>but the wording in the news suggests the plane just fell several kilometers by itself because of the hole.
20:35<Tefad>ah, yeah that's wrong
20:36<ln>is this idiotism present in the news in other countries?
20:37<ln>somehow i think it originates from the first article by e.g. BBC, where a random passenger said something about losing altitude.
20:40<@Rubidium>ln: idiotism can be found in all news
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20:41<@Rubidium>like the "fact" that there is no CO2 in the air next to a big burning building
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 28 00:00:51 2008