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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-16

---Logopened Sat Aug 16 00:00:56 2008
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02:16<@peter1138>Did the desync hunt get anywhere?
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03:05<@Rubidium>I didn't even start it
03:07<@Rubidium>hmm... to replicate wait 10 minutes?
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03:14<@peter1138>I'm suspicious of a few things that use the result of RoadVehFindCloseTo()
03:15<@peter1138>But... probably unfounded.
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03:31<@Rubidium>the first one to desync (in the last run) was a train
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03:36<@peter1138>Just left running?
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03:39<@Rubidium>for a few seconds yes ;)
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03:51<Wolf01>mmmh ruined a game, an assert on IsTileType(t, MP_INDUSTRY) and tile < MapSize() :(
03:57<@Rubidium>been changing newgrfs?
03:58<Wolf01>the last thing I made was to build an industry some years before the crash
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04:17<Wolf01>uh, saved the game... the old AI was trying to do something weird, so I enabled tne new AI
04:18<@Rubidium>peter1138: never mind, I was fracking up with hunting the desync :(
04:18<SpComb>failure detected
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04:22<@Rubidium>Brianetta: isn't there really a savegame with less time between start and desync?
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04:23<@Rubidium>because 10 minutes is *way* too long when I want to be actually able to hunt it
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04:42<Wolf01>Rubidium, do you need a savegame to check what the AI was trying to do?
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04:44<@Rubidium>Wolf01: what version were you using?
04:44<@Rubidium>make a bugreport with the savegame
04:45<Wolf01>or at least, yesterday's nightly
04:45<@Rubidium>Brianetta: I can't fix the desync issue as I could only reproduce it with 4 GB of logs, which made diff blow
04:46<@Rubidium>and I'm not going to run openttd for 30 minutes *per* run to trace a desync, especially when I need to do it very often
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05:15<Tekky>Hi, I have a question about multiplayer desyncs: If a new client joins a multiplayer game, do all clients reload the savegame? Or only the connecting client?
05:18<Alberth>Tekky: I'd expect the new client to download the map currently being played
05:22<Tekky>I am asking this question because one my station rating patch keeps track of the total cargo delivered to a station for the current and previous month. The station rating is dependent on this value, because a station which has large amounts of cargo delivered to it will not get a station rating penalty so quickly for having a large stockpile. I'm afraid this causes multiplayer desyncs,...
05:22<Tekky>...because this new information about station production is only stored in memory and not in the savegame, because I didn't want to change the savegame format in order to preserve savegame compatibility.
05:23<Noldo>yes, it will desync
05:25<Tekky>if a new client joins the game, the client will load the savegame and all station's last month's production will be initialized to 0 for the new client that joined (because this value is not stored in the savegame), while the values of the clients that were already in the game will be nonzero.
05:26<Noldo>you need to store it in the savegame sooner or later anyway
05:28<Tekky>Yes, I'm afraid that this will cause desyncs. But I currently prefer single-player savegame compatibility with trunk than multiplayer compatiblity. If I store additional information in the savegame, this will break all savegame compatibility.
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05:29<Wolf01>there's no different workaround, also I needed to store the variable on savegame when I made the daylength patch
05:29<Wolf01>and in single player worked like a charm
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05:57<Brianetta>Rubidium: It's your software. I only report the bugs I find.
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06:26<Alberth>Brianetta: He is not denying that, he just likes to get some help from you. To debug a problem, one needs to have a *quick* way of reproducing the problem. You can help by loading the save game, and let it run, saving lots of times until the crash. Then reload the last saved game to check that it crashes. With that save, he can start looking for the cause.
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06:40<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it's a little more problematic with desyncs, because at the moment the desync is detected, the original cause of the desync is long gone
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06:49<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: Agreed, getting a quick way to reproduce the problem can be tricky. I go as far as not even reporting a problem until I have a quick way to reproduce it. For example, my autorail tool gets confused about the CTL key every now and then. Unfortunately, until now I don't know what to do to make it happen except by playing for a few hours. Useless for debugging.
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>desync errors have a long chain of events that need to be repeated for any test, like A <-> B <-> C <-> D <-> E. where A is start server, B is the action that whose result not properly saved, C is the client join, D is the unsaved data causing a different code path taken, and E is the desync being detected by a random decision differing between server and client
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06:59<Eddi|zuHause>from what i understand, the "C <-> D <-> E" of brianettas example is rather short, but the "A <-> B <-> C" chain is very long
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>because it is very unknown, what B actually is and when it happens
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07:06<Alberth>We should have an automatic issue reduction system :) Let the computer repeatedly play the game until the crash each time eliminating a possible cause, until no cause can be removed any more.
07:07<Ammller>isn't the debugger for?
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07:09<Eddi|zuHause>i really don't think you get the problem, Alberth...
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07:13<Alberth>I think I do, you need to chop the A-C part as many times as you can, then do a binary search on all those save points to decide which one is the last before B. Trouble is that the decision function means doing <load> -> B? -> C -> D -> E (where lack of E may be difficult to detect).
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07:37<Wolf01>nooo not againnnnnnn what's wrong with unlimited raw materials? why all industry sets now use limited resouces?
07:38<Ammller>Wolf01: new industry set?
07:38<Wolf01>pikka and ecs
07:38<Ammller>they aren't new
07:39<Wolf01>last versions
07:39<Wolf01>I just updated
07:39<Ammller>"not again" implies you played a new set :-)
07:39<Wolf01>and found this wonderful feature also on pbi
07:39<Ammller>but you can build pbi industries together...
07:40<Wolf01>no, I want to disable that stupid feature directly
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07:40<Ammller>pbi has no switches to disable that, afaik
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07:41<Wolf01>we need a patch to diable all behaviors of a grf like restrictions and limitations of resources and stockpiles
07:42<Wolf01>is not possible to play always with original industries because one wants to play a sandbox game
07:43<Ammller>Wolf01: it should be possible to overwrite it with a grf...
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07:59<AmixE90>I find the morphos version of OpenTTD the most stable openttd version of them all. Macosx version is ok, but suddendly it gets gfx errors or map just moves in one direction. Windows version got problems with finding grfs.
08:00<dih>AmixE90, may i be very straight forward with you?
08:00<dih>i use mac os x (ppc), linux (debian), and windows (xp)
08:00<dih>i have not found any issues with either
08:00<AmixE90>I have
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08:01<AmixE90>I am a great betatester
08:01<dih>and 'not finding grf' sounds to me like 'user not knowing where to put them' :-P
08:01<AmixE90>Its not that
08:02<AmixE90>It finds it.. Applies.. But still its not recognized. Sometimes a restart helps though
08:02<dih>sorry - i have not every come across that behaviour
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08:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's not "beta testing"
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08:03<Eddi|zuHause>you need a reproduceable behaviour
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08:05<dih>and 'restartint the os' does not sound like an openttd issue :-P
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09:11<planetmas>I found just an interesting fact, probably not intended this way:
09:12<planetmas>When ctrl-drag an exit signal, the exit signal changes back to a normal one
09:12<planetmas>and why do I have this broken nick?
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09:14<planetmaker>r14069 btw
09:14<frosch123> is your friend
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09:45<Ammler>planetmaker: that is not bug
09:46<Ammler>if you ctrl-drag a presignal, it should change to normal type
09:46<Yorick>Ammler: and the console is a gui?
09:46<Ammler>you need i.e. only a entry signal before the exit :-)
09:47<Yorick>but combo signals?
09:47<Yorick>I want to drag those
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09:47<Ammler>also max 2 :-)
09:48<Ammler>oh, prios :-)
09:52<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14082 /trunk/src/train.h: -Codechange: Make 'GetNextUnit()' more fool-proof wrt. real dualheads.
09:57<planetmaker>Ammler: the new signals should be normal ones. But not the one I dragged.
10:02<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14083 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#1264, FS#2037, FS#2038, FS#2110]: Rewrite the autoreplace kernel.
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10:03*Yorick gives frosch123 a cookie
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10:05<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14084 /trunk/src/lang/ (38 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Language updates for r14083.
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10:15<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14085 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Cleanup (r14083): Remove no longer used functions.
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10:19*frosch123 takes the cookie and enjoys the sun awaiting a new flood of bug reports
10:20*Yorick gives frosch123 another cookie
10:20*frosch123 gets some real cookies
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10:33<Kloopy_>frosch: Are desyncs based on autoreplace fixed, then?
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10:34<Yorick>just check
10:34<frosch123>the next days will show
10:34<Yorick>but there was some other assert with articulated vehicles and breakdowns
10:35<+glx>no asserts
10:39<Kloopy_>Can someone recommend a tram grf please?
10:39<Chrill>Generic tramset
10:39<Chrill>German trams
10:39<Chrill>Serbian trams
10:39<Chrill>Modern trams
10:39<Yorick>Generic Tramset
10:40<Yorick>heroshima trams
10:40<Yorick>modern trams
10:40<Kloopy_>So that's two votes for generic and modern :P
10:40<Chrill>modern are all available at start, I think
10:40<Chrill>Generic is boring though
10:40<Chrill>it's like.. regulat TT stuff gone trammy
10:40<Chrill>well not regular
10:40<Chrill>but they lack.. spirit xD
10:40<Yorick>that is the idea of them
10:41<Yorick>regular TTD stuff gone trammy
10:41<Chrill>They are still boring ;)
10:41<Yorick>heroshima trams is nicely articulated
10:41<Chrill>never tried those
10:41<Chrill>aint even ehard
10:42<Eddi|zuHause><Chrill> German trams <- it's the german road vehicle grf, not the german tram grf
10:42<Kloopy_>Do you need a tram track grf aswell as a tram train grf?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>there are tram tracks included, but they look ugly
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>so i would recommend to override them
10:43<Yorick>the grass tram tracks look nice
10:43<Yorick>they're single-poled
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>"new tram tracks" or "lightrail/tram tracks" are nice
10:43<Yorick>lightrail is quite boring
10:44<hylje>lightrail ftw!
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>standard tram tracks are way too narrow
10:45<Yorick>I disagree
10:47<Mark>anyone knows what the amount of inflation is?
10:47<Mark>in % a year
10:47<Mark>or is it not that simple?
10:47<Yorick>I don't think it is
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>it's in the difficulty settings afaik
10:47<Mark>thats interest rate i think
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and that defines also the inflation
10:48<Mark>ooh, right
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>it might be slightly different than that, but it's based on that value
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11:19<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i did something wrong...
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>src/settings_gui.cpp:781: PatchesSelectionWindow::PatchesSelectionWindow(const WindowDesc*): Assertion `sd != __null' failed.
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>why is this still called "Patches" anyway?
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11:22<Yorick>Eddi: you added a name to the gui list that isn't a known patch, I think
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>probably, but i don't find the error
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11:26<Yorick>I last got that assert with a typo in settings_gui
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11:52<ln>oh, it is indeed Leonard Nimoy in Civ IV.
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11:52<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i found it... missing comma, so it concatenated two strings...
11:53<djpety>are they the programing team :)
11:53<Yorick>who is they?
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>THEY are the ones with the conspiracy
11:54<djpety>sorry for my english :)
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>THEY want you to believe that a town named "Bielefeld" exists...
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11:55<djpety>are they any hungarian person?
11:55<Yorick>Eddi: THEY also want you to believe that a town namd "Schweinfurt" exists
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>djpety: there used to be
11:56<djpety>ok :)
11:56<Yorick>like a year ago
11:56<djpety>are there any hungarian person here?
11:56<djpety>beacause i'm from hungary :)
11:56*Yorick waits for ln
11:57<Yorick>this channel is english only
11:57<djpety>and speak in hungarian easier than english :)
11:57<ln>if you are hungary, you should eat
11:57<djpety>not hungary, hungarian :)
11:58<djpety>hungarian is the nationality :P
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>he knows that very well ;)
12:02<djpety>can you help me with the extra zoom 32bpp project?
12:02<djpety>always crash :S
12:02<djpety>i read the forum
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>extra zoom is not officially supported
12:03<djpety>i know, but... :)
12:03<djpety>some help for me :D
12:03<Yorick>ask GeekToo
12:03<djpety>he's not here...
12:06<djpety>are they planning to make extra zoom offical in the openttd?
12:07<Doorslammer>SURPRISE BADGER!
12:08<Doorslammer>It still works! Awesome!
12:08*Doorslammer runs away
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12:41<planetmaker>crash in r14069: openttd: /home/openttd/svn-public/src/pbs.cpp:138: void UnreserveRailTrack(TileIndex, Track): Assertion `(GetTileTrackS
12:41<planetmaker>tatus(tile, TRANSPORT_RAIL, 0) & TrackToTrackBits(t)) != 0' failed.
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12:42<Yorick>seems like a yapp failure
12:42<planetmaker>that I know
12:42<planetmaker>it's for the dev's information :)
12:43<Yorick>seems like it's trying to unreserve a tile without tracks
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13:11<Yorick>Brianetta: does your desync also happen with nondedicated servers?
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13:17<guru3>anyone up for a game?
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but how are we going to get the elephant in here?
13:18<guru3>i wish i could be a smart allac sometimes :<
13:19<guru3>anyone up for a game of openttd?
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13:23<Yorick>I can't reproduce brianettas desync
13:23<+glx>Yorick: it may take time
13:24<Yorick>he said it'd take about 10 gameyears
13:24<+glx>that's a lot
13:25<guru3>ok where did the raise/lower land dialog move to Oo
13:26<+glx>landscape butto
13:26<guru3>i should have rememberd that
13:26<+glx>next to other construction buttons
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13:27<Yorick>guru3: could you host a nightly server then?
13:28<guru3>uhhh probably
13:28<guru3>i'd need a few minutes to sort that out
13:28<Yorick>running linux?
13:28<guru3>what am i being tricked into...?
13:28<Yorick>please use 14085 then :)
13:28<Yorick>you wanted a game
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13:28<guru3>are you going to play with me?
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>you might want to wait 30 minutes for the next nightly then ;)
13:29<Yorick>as long as I have time, yes
13:29<Yorick>Eddi: 30 minutes is soo long
13:29<guru3>14085 isn't a nightly
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>but... autoreplace...
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13:29<Yorick>@svn younghest
13:29<@DorpsGek>Yorick: Invalid arguments for svn.
13:29<Yorick>@openttd younghest
13:30<guru3>14078 is the latest nightl
13:30<Yorick>@list openttd
13:30<@DorpsGek>Yorick: bug, bugs, changed, commit, download, grf, grfs, info, port, ports, propset, servers, svn, thelog, and youngest
13:30<Yorick>@openttd youngest
13:30<@DorpsGek>Yorick: latest: r14085
13:30<Roujin>try spelling it correctly :P
13:30<Yorick>guru3: r14085 got an autoreplace powerup
13:30<guru3>i'm tending to grr
13:30<guru3>i hate getting it out of svn manually
13:30<Yorick>and I think it will be a nightly soon
13:31<SmatZ>wait a hour
13:32<Brianetta>Yorick: Never tried one.
13:32<Yorick>Brianetta: well, I just disconnected, but not desynced
13:32<guru3>./configure --dedicated?
13:32<guru3>or is it something obscure
13:32<Yorick>guru3: a normal configure
13:33<Yorick>and then openttd -D
13:33<guru3>a few other things like putting in a config and opening up the firewall and the grfs
13:33<guru3>might be in order too
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>we need a "walking cargo" feature (some cargo gets transported between close industries without any transport routes)
13:37<guru3>Yorick: should be up
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13:37<Yorick>guru3: r14085?
13:37<guru3>that's the one
13:37<guru3>unless there's another r14085 i don't know about
13:38<guru3>and aparently i left it on a huge map Oo
13:38<guru3>and easy settings D:
13:39<+glx>nice it desynced fast this time
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>standard settings are bad...
13:39<guru3>no clue
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13:39<+glx>hmm no it was connection lost indeed
13:39<+glx>how can I lost connection on localhost???
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13:39<Yorick>same for me
13:40<Yorick>guru3: you cannot even stay in your own game?
13:40<guru3>trying to change the difficulty settings
13:40<guru3>to something more appropriate to players of our caliber
13:41<Yorick>without breakdowns
13:41<guru3>among other things
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13:43<guru3>Yorick: try it now
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13:55<guru3>i don't know the yapp at all
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13:59<Eddi|zuHause>yapp is really easy, wherever you formerly placed exit signals, you place no signals at all...
13:59<guru3>i thought the old signaling system was easy :/
13:59<guru3>this looks hard
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>you place less signals, and you have less signal types
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>really, it's easy
14:00<guru3>the ones wth the sign on them
14:00<guru3>how do the differ
14:00<guru3>one way only?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>they don't allow passing in reverse
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>like the old one way signals
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>normal yapp signals can be passed from the other side
14:01<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14086 /trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp: -Fix (r13067): rail/road removing by CTRL didn't sometimes work when a depot window was opened
14:01<guru3>this will take getting used to
14:01<guru3>my gigantic junctions are becoming obsolete
14:02<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: FEWER!
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you should check your fever...
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14:12-!-Netsplit <-> quits: Tefad, ccfreak2k, a1270, Wolf01|AWAY, izhirahider
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14:19<Yorick>does the signal gui have ketboard shortcuts>
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14:27<Yorick>cactus_party :D
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14:28<guru3>mixing yapp and regular signals doesn't seem to work very well
14:28<cactus_party>anyone have any troubles installing 0.6.2 from source? mine seems to have compiled fine but 'make install' doesn't move any files anywhere
14:30<Yorick>why would you install?
14:31<cactus_party>why wouldn't i?
14:31<Yorick>because there is no reason to install anything?
14:32<cactus_party>there's also no reason to play computer games
14:32<Yorick>yes there is
14:32<Yorick>they're fun
14:33<cactus_party>installing is fun
14:33<Yorick>is it?
14:33<cactus_party>cause then the game is where it is supposed to be
14:33<Yorick>no it isn't
14:34<Yorick>it is supposed to be in your source/bin directory
14:35<cactus_party>well the ./configure script seems to think it is putting things in /usr/local
14:36<Yorick>your configure script is broken
14:36<Yorick>the game is supposed to be in /svncheckout/bin
14:36<cactus_party>i'm not using svn
14:36<cactus_party>i'm using the stable version or whatever.. 0.6.2
14:37<Yorick>you got a stable source target
14:37<cactus_party>are you telling me that the install function was purposefully removed?
14:38<Yorick>I am telling you that you better use an svn checkout
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>now really... how can i reduce the production of passengers :(
14:39<Yorick>Eddi: get a lower rating
14:39<cactus_party>0.6.2 will be different from svn than from the main website?
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>Yorick: impossible with a tram every day...
14:39<Yorick>decrease the tram frequency
14:40<Yorick>cactus: how should I know?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>Yorick: to a tram every 2 months?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>that does not really help :p
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14:44<Yorick>Eddi: it dóes decrease passenger production
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>but it hurts other requirements :p
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15:09<Yorick>anyone else up for a game of ottd?
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>is there a tile loop counter?
15:18<Brianetta>feckit, I desynced
15:18<Brianetta>Can't be the trams, then
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>hm... fast forward doesn't acutally go any faster :(
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15:25<Brianetta>Vemarkis' waypoints desynced again
15:26<Yorick>those are ony graphics
15:27<Yorick>anyone else up for a game of ottd?
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15:37<Brianetta>Yorick: Come and desync on my server.
15:37<Yorick>brianetta: now playing electricpotential
15:55<@Rubidium>hmm, the diff of the reduced desync logs I made is still running :(
15:55<@Rubidium>that's more than 11 hours...
15:56<Yorick>the time that takes to diff it
15:57<Yorick>or without desyncs?
15:58<@Rubidium>diff, the application, is still running
15:59<Brianetta>Rubidium: It wasn't that big for me, as you can see in the zip
15:59<Brianetta>Also, there's still Vemarkis' waypoints desync
15:59<Brianetta>He managed it again on my server
15:59<Brianetta>Renamed a waypoint, desyned everybody, and names shifted waypoints
15:59<Brianetta>Apparently, all *his* waypoints are still there
16:00<@Rubidium>Brianetta: I added more debug info to the log
16:00<Brianetta>Rubidium: Ouch.
16:00<Yorick>so everytime someone renames a waypoint, everuthing dsyncs?
16:00<@Rubidium>it's all very nice, but without more information and a way to actually reproduce it I'm blind
16:00<Brianetta>Yorick: Every time Vemarkis...
16:00<Brianetta>but yeah
16:00<Brianetta>he has a poison touch with waypoints
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16:01<@Rubidium>what's special about him that other players don't have?
16:01<@Rubidium>like a different architecture
16:01<Brianetta>Rubidium: I do understand the nature of desyncs, and why it's so damned hard to find what caused a state change when your only evidence can be a random call millions of instructions later
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16:02<Brianetta>Windows XP, sp3
16:02<Brianetta>Pretty ordinary, I'd say
16:02<Brianetta>He downloaded it
16:03<Brianetta>the game, that is
16:03<Brianetta>not a custom build
16:03-!-Amixbook [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
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16:03<@Rubidium>but... load savegame, pause at tick X, join client, unpause, desync is way better than: load savegame, join client and *pray* for desync
16:03<bpZero>is tr/'//d better than s/'//g?
16:04<@Rubidium>he actually downloaded it from sourceforge or from the forum?
16:04<Brianetta>Rubidium: If I could save just before a desync, I so would
16:04<bpZero>er sorry, wrong window.
16:04<Brianetta>Wherever references
16:04<Yorick>Brianetta: desync-debug=1
16:04<Brianetta>Yorick: I used 2
16:04<Yorick>1 will allow you to save
16:04<@Rubidium>what language?
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16:07<Brianetta>davis has had a desync when he renamed a waypoint once
16:07<Brianetta>Always the same result; waypoint renamed, or name shifted elsewhere, and that waypoint removed from all orders
16:08<Yorick>broken id?
16:08<Brianetta>Missing or extra waypoint, one side or the other
16:08<@Rubidium>so some way a waypoint doesn't get build everywhere or doesn't get removed everywhere
16:08<Brianetta>he has a static grf
16:09<+glx>which one?
16:10<frosch123>Combined American Signal Set (US Set)
16:10<Brianetta>Combined American Signal Set (US Set)
16:10<Brianetta>oh, like that will work
16:10<Brianetta>oh, it does
16:14<frosch123>uh, oh, grf2html says "invalid grffile" on ussigz.grf
16:15-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:15<@Rubidium>Brianetta: but renaming the waypoint desyncs everybody, including the renamer?
16:15<Brianetta>not all at once
16:16<Brianetta>but within a minute
16:16<Brianetta>Most of us desynced on the next frame
16:16<Brianetta>davis managed to hang on somehow
16:16<Brianetta>but he did desync
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16:19<Yorick>I think he was lagging
16:21<Brianetta>Yorick: You can't lag
16:21<Yorick>Brianetta: can't you?
16:21<Brianetta>If you don't keep up with the heartbeat, you get cut off
16:22<@Rubidium>keep up within 4-ish game days
16:22<+glx><frosch123> uh, oh, grf2html says "invalid grffile" on ussigz.grf <-- then grf2html has a bug :)
16:22<Yorick>keep up within 4 game days
16:22<Brianetta>That's about 8 seconds
16:22<Brianetta>although you can change net_frame_freq
16:22<frosch123>glx: there are some unreleased grfcodec alternatives around. but in this case the grfcodeced grf is a lot smaller
16:23<+glx>but grfcodec understand it
16:23<frosch123>and grf2html understands the reencoded grf
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16:24<frosch123>the question is whether ottd understands the non-standard grf
16:24<Brianetta>if grfcodec understands it, it's not non-standard
16:24<Brianetta>DaleStan might be many things, but bad at newgrf isn't one of them.
16:25<frosch123>who nows, perhaps it causes some buffer-overrun and destroy half of ottd's internal state
16:25<frosch123>anyway, I have to switch OS to get a proper debugger
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16:55<Eddi|zuHause>somebody ate half the moon
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16:57<Roujin>I saw it too some mins ago
16:57<Roujin>not too exciting to watch tho :P
16:59<dragonhorseboy>watch what?
17:00<dragonhorseboy>just wondering as I just came in :p
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>the moon
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>or the not-moon
17:02<dragonhorseboy>oh ok
17:02<Roujin>actually its still the moon, only dark :P
17:04<ln>it's the clouds
17:04<@Bjarni>oh thanks for reminding me :)
17:06<ln>should also be full moon in 10 mins
17:07*Sacro notices the hairs on his back growing
17:08-!-CelestarT42p [] has joined #openttd
17:08*Roujin thinks Sacro is in desperate need of a shave
17:08<Roujin>hi Celestar :)
17:09<CelestarT42p>how is it?
17:09-!-Purno [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:09<Roujin>depends on what "it" is..
17:09<CelestarT42p>Roujin: everything
17:09<CelestarT42p>peter1138: got anything to pull for me?
17:11<CelestarT42p>Roujin: did you test cargodest some more?
17:11<Roujin>everything? well the moon is hidden, the mood is fine, the root is almighty and the food is all mine
17:11<Roujin>.. or something along the lines
17:12<Roujin>yes, I pulled from earlier and updated, still playing my game
17:14-!-Celestar142p [] has joined #openttd
17:14<Celestar142p>Roujin: did you find any anomalies?
17:15<Roujin>nope, found nothing so far..
17:16<Celestar142p>good ;)
17:16<Roujin>what about the desync problems the ottdcoop guys encountered? Got an idea what causes it?
17:17<Roujin>as I'm playing single player, I can't possibly notice anything desync related..
17:18<Celestar142p>Roujin: well you can: run your own server.
17:18<Celestar142p>Roujin: I'll have a look at multiplayer tomorrow and next week
17:19*dragonhorseboy need to decide what to do with the damned rusty bmw :/
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17:22<CelestarT42p>k Roujin I'll get back to you tomorrow
17:22<CelestarT42p>(bed time)
17:22<CelestarT42p>gn all
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17:23<Roujin>switching locations.. brb
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17:48<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14087 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix [FS#2228]: flawed parsing of words (as in 2 bytes) in GRF strings due to sign extension (minime)
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17:52<dingo>how do i disable the 'dbg: [net] [udp] queried from ' messages on dedicated server? they're obnoxious!
17:52<dingo>i've tried -d net=0
17:53<@Rubidium>try typing debug_level net=0 once the dedicated server started
17:53<dingo>can that go into an openttd.cfg?
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17:55<dingo>debug_level net=1 works, too
17:55<dingo>hopefully i'll still see people connect :)
17:55<dingo>also i got a poop-ton of desync errors on a standard game around 1970 with just 8 players on a moderately small map
17:55<dingo>what kind of things can i do to prevent that?
17:56<SmatZ>play without GRFs
17:56<SmatZ>or report a bug :-P
17:56<dingo>there are none
17:56<SmatZ>hmm, with YAPP?
17:57<dingo>path finder?
17:57<SmatZ>what version are you running?
17:57<dingo>how can i tell?
17:57<Ammler>SmatZ: do not use GRFs ar excuse everytime :P
17:58<dingo>i already saw the grf thing.. googling for issues ran into the same response in this irc channel log previously
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17:58<dingo>i just updated netbsd's pkgsrc package for openttd to 0.6.2, i'm submitting it today
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17:58<SmatZ>dingo: is it reproducible?
17:59<dingo>i stored a savegame
17:59<dingo>i could load it and see?
17:59<@Rubidium>making a desync reproducable is *the* only way to get it fixed
18:00<dingo>im connecting to a stored savegame, server
18:00<dingo>i'll see if it can happen again
18:00<dingo>i was thinking, could running a network time protocol daemon cause a desync by chance?
18:00<SmatZ>dingo: did you change the "Disable electric railways" patch settings? is it enabled or disabled? it should be fixed, but maybe it causes desyncs...
18:01<SmatZ>dingo: no
18:01<@Rubidium>dingo: no, it doesn't use that timing
18:01<dingo>disable_elrails = false
18:01<dingo>this setting?
18:01<dingo>i changed very few settings, i could do a diff of the standard .cfg
18:02<dingo>hmm, no desync's yet, it was very rabid at the time
18:03<dingo>i am running a strange architecture, amd64 as a domU in xen virtualization
18:03<@Rubidium>desyncs only happen after the "key" moment of the desync happened on the server
18:03<dingo>on netbsd
18:04<Brianetta>dingo: Are the desyncs happening even if nobody does anything?
18:04<dingo>is it regular that all clients get booted for a desync?
18:04<Brianetta>For example, you're the only person connected and you're a spectator
18:04<dingo>no, it hasn't happened yet, i've loaded a savegame while it was happening rabidly, after a restart though
18:05<dingo>(trying to get rid of the damn 'query from' messages so i could see the desync errors!)
18:05*Sacro hands dingo a mop
18:05<Brianetta>dingo: A desync means, and only means, that a client's game world and the server's game world aren't identical. The clients are booted off, so that they'll be fixed when they reconnect and get the game world fresh again.
18:05<dingo>yes i understand, quakeworld-like code
18:06<Brianetta>I don' tknow quakeworld
18:06<Prof_Frink>We should implement openttd-multiverse
18:06<dingo>dbg: [net] 'Croquet 69' reported an error and is closing its connection (desync error)
18:06<dingo>dbg: [net] 'Knuks' reported an error and is closing its connection (desync error)
18:06<Brianetta>I thought those games allowed a certain variation between client and server
18:06<dingo>(repeat 4 other players)
18:06<dingo>then some of htem reconnected
18:06<dingo>and were disconnected again
18:06<Prof_Frink>Where each desync spawns a new universe and continue playing, subtly differently
18:06<dingo>then they stopped reconnecting, but it happened when only I was remaining the third time to me
18:06<@Rubidium>sounds like some cache got fracked up
18:07<Brianetta>Rubidium: Does this look like it might be the one I reported?
18:07<Brianetta>That is, not the waypoints one
18:07<dingo>i like the multi-universe idea
18:07<Brianetta>the other one
18:07<@Rubidium>Brianetta: could be
18:07<Brianetta>dingo: Multiverse is like taking a save from the server and playing it solo
18:08<dingo>oh not solo, lets just get confused
18:08<Brianetta>Rubidium: If you decide to make some patches to test specific areas of code, let me know and I'll apply and test them locally.
18:08<@Rubidium>Brianetta: problem with those patches is that they generate ginourmous amount of output
18:09<@Rubidium>like in the range of 1 GB a minute
18:09<@Rubidium>which I then need to diff and such
18:09<Brianetta>I have big disks, broadband and I can do any diffs, etc, locally too.
18:10<dingo>well i'll play this map on server, and see if it happens again?
18:10<dingo>i mean, i dont know how i'd submit a bug report... the console doesn't give any hints...
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>hm... can i prevent cargo from aging when it is not in a vehicle?
18:10<@Rubidium>dingo: what I basically need to find the desync is a savegame that I can load in the server and a date at which I should join to get the desync triggered
18:11<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: not quite
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, for certain cargos (mail, valuables) it is relevant to go from end to end as fast as possible, but for others (passengers), it is only relevant if the cargo is moving
18:11<Brianetta>Rubidium: I take it you mean as early a date as possible
18:12<@Rubidium>Brianetta: yes
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18:12<Brianetta>I can see several loads, reloads and server-side pauses comingon
18:13<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: can't prevent anything that isn't happening
18:13<dragonhorseboy>eddi hmm really good question there .. I mean shouldn't some cargos be able to sit in station for a way long time? (eg steel sitting on platform for a few years till its became all rusty and is only good for on-site scrap :p )
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>and for other cargos (coal, ore) it is actually only relevant that the cargo arrives
18:14<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: You just need to modify the cargo payment rates
18:14<Brianetta>Give coal a flatter line on the graph
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: that solves the last problem, but not the first one
18:15<Brianetta>What, you think passengers shouldn't mind a four-hour wait for a connection?
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes ;)
18:15<Brianetta>They'd say you sucked, and go to your competitor's station
18:15<dragonhorseboy>well I have to agree... even if the station rating drops to <50% coal should *still* be stockpiling *up*
18:15<dragonhorseboy>coal doesn't really decay in a sense
18:15<Prof_Frink>Brianetta: Implement signal cable-stealing pikeys in openttd!
18:15<Brianetta>dragonhorseboy: No; the coal is removed from the station back to the industry for redistribution
18:16<dragonhorseboy>and what if there's no other stations?
18:16<Brianetta>Look at any industry without stations.
18:16<Brianetta>They are producing; the product isn't moving.
18:16<Brianetta>0 tonnes (0%) transported.
18:16<dragonhorseboy>I guess thats why people can't bother with low-production mines because the stockpiles can't stay long enough for a cheap slow train
18:16<dragonhorseboy>even me too at times
18:17<Brianetta>So whisk it off to a station four tiles away
18:17<@peter1138>Road vehicles :D
18:17<Brianetta>unload it, go back
18:17<Brianetta>This is the use for Pikka's diesel shunter
18:17<@Rubidium>that's stupid, just a few expensive trains and the industry'll produce more in a few years
18:17<dragonhorseboy>peter..doesn't work with typical ones unless you want to use 4LV (for the capacity) which then again very few servers even have
18:17-!-welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
18:17<dragonhorseboy>rubidium never really worked that way on some maps
18:18<@peter1138>I never ever want to use LV4 again.
18:18<@Rubidium>I never ever wanted to use LV* anyways
18:18<dragonhorseboy>peter...then well duh .. the coal will just have to be able to sit at the station for long time considering the weak capacity of anything else
18:18<@peter1138>egrvts is far superior.
18:18<Brianetta>egrvts will go onto my server once the stable release can use it
18:19<@peter1138>Surely if the capacity of a road vehicle is not enough... you should use a small train :o
18:19<Brianetta>although teleporting trams does annoy me and other players
18:19<Brianetta>peter1138: Think like Richard Beeching
18:19<Brianetta>Trains are a relic of the Victorian era; we should look to more flexible, modern transport.
18:19<dragonhorseboy>peter...and the problem is for the train to not run at a red loss it has to have several wagons at once which doesn't quite match with a tiny mine? ^_^
18:20<Brianetta>dragonhorseboy: Diesel shunter is your friend
18:20<@peter1138>Well, I don't particularly care if individual routes make a loss, as long as overall there is profit.
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>hey... the moon is almost back
18:20<dragonhorseboy>brianetta...what kind of set has a 90+km/h shunter at absurb low price?
18:20<Brianetta>UKRS (:
18:20<Brianetta>It's not that fast, thoug
18:21<Brianetta>but it's ideal for dragging low output wares to a stockpile station
18:21<dragonhorseboy>well....40km/h is going to take a long time and the station will just have no stockpile (at <20%) by the time the train even returns?
18:21<Brianetta>over short runs
18:21<Sacro>a shunter doesn't usually ever leave a yard/station area
18:21<Sacro>it normally just drags wagons around into rakes
18:21<Brianetta>So, build a second station three tiles from the first, and use a shunter to take away the industry's product
18:21<dragonhorseboy>sacro yeah true on that
18:22<Brianetta>Sacro: Yes; my shunters, used like this, don't stray far either
18:22<dragonhorseboy>brianetta..and then where does the second station go to?
18:22<Sacro>what with there being no loco hauling now there's no need for them to use a yard
18:22<Brianetta>dragonhorseboy: Anywhere you like. The wares will wait for your long distance trains.
18:22<Brianetta>Sacro: You're thinking passengers there. Most freight is loco hauled.
18:22<dragonhorseboy>I'm not so sure..even the "transfered" cargos can lose themself if sitting long enough (they still get rated the same as normal cargos as far as I've noticed)
18:23<Brianetta>There's a shiny 08 at Chilly Road right now
18:23<Sacro>Brianetta: i meant leave the yard
18:23<Brianetta>new paint job
18:23<Sacro>into the station
18:23<Sacro>i know they do a lot of yard working
18:23<Sacro>but quite a lot now use crawl signals
18:23<Sacro>and run around
18:23<Brianetta>Some do dock work, too
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: but the shunter will arrive more often, so the rating does not decay much [at least using cargodest]
18:24<Brianetta>which is more or less exactly what I was describing
18:24<Sacro>sounds like a Bjarni kind of job that
18:24<dragonhorseboy> adding more to the stockpile somehow makes the rating stays up?
18:24<Brianetta>Eddi|zuHause: Additionally, the cargo is being taken away to an intermediate station, where it won't go away
18:24<Brianetta>even if the ratings fall
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: i think they do go away...
18:25<dragonhorseboy>eddi...just like I said earlier heh
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: yes, but they only go away if the rating is <50%
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>you need a rather big pile to go below that
18:26<Brianetta>So use a shunter to take one micro-wagon full of stuff away regularly
18:26<dragonhorseboy>umm I've noticed that even just 28 tonnes of coal still can disappear if sitting long enough
18:26<dragonhorseboy>and thats even for a transfering station
18:27<Brianetta>Your big train can pick up the real load, then pick up whatever the shunter left at the stockpile station (if it has room), then head off
18:27<dragonhorseboy>remind me why I often have so MANY single and some B-train coal trucks on most of my maps
18:28<dragonhorseboy>at least they can be depended on being both cheap and fast altogether .. although I often have to skip the sub-64tonnes mine for the reason of stockpile-keeping problem
18:28<Brianetta>btw, if you want to keep ratings high, replace some rolling stock with new from time to time
18:28<Brianetta>Sell a wagon and replace it
18:28<Brianetta>cheaper than doing a whole train, but still works
18:31<@Bjarni><Sacro> sounds like a Bjarni kind of job that <--- errr... I didn't tell you that I spent all day doing switching operations, did I?
18:31<Sacro>Bjarni: i meant doing favours for sailers
18:31<dragonhorseboy>hm come to think about it..I did once have one coal mine that only saw aircrafts alone the whole time thanks to it being both high output and being located in a really bad position smacked somewhat in the middle of a mountaineous zone :p
18:31<@Bjarni>I guess that's what I get for trying to take you serious
18:32<Sacro>Bjarni: a nasty itch?
18:32<dragonhorseboy>hint: got to love these russian heavy cargo flyers :)
18:32*Sacro updates his openttd patches
18:32<dragonhorseboy>one plane = 450 tonnes of coal :D
18:32<dragonhorseboy>(well the newest one you can get in the set eventually that is)
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18:33*Prof_Frink straps some wings to the sides of a ship
18:33*Bjarni imagines that Prof_Frink is quite happy about his new invention: the airship
18:34<@Bjarni>aka Zeppelin :P
18:34<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: Led.
18:34*Sacro is now playing: Led Zeppelin - Good Times, Bad Times
18:35<dragonhorseboy>well either way to our own but I used to like the mix of dbsetxl+4LV+russiaplanes in temperate .. seem like there was almost nothing that wasn't possible (except for trying to transport 16/32tonnes raw industries in any kind of manner to break even at all)
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20:11<januzi>is there somebody that could tell me what is the name of the function that draws station coverage ?
20:13<GoneWacko>No idea, but my suggestion would be to look at the code for pressing the station coverage button and backtrack (or is that forwardtrack?) your way from there; Although I'm sure you guessed that yourself :P
20:13*GoneWacko shuts up now
20:17<januzi>good idea
20:21<januzi>GoneWacko: what about station list ? where should I look for it /
20:25<januzi>never mind, I found it :)
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 17 00:00:35 2008