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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-25

---Logopened Mon Aug 25 00:00:56 2008
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02:29<celtic_cross>Hello. I've been trying latest cargodest patch, windows build from a post on tt-forums. And I always get same assert with same game. Who should i report it to?
02:33<Celestar>can you post me the savegame somewhere?
02:35<celtic_cross>It's openttd coop 109 game. I get assert this way - I load it with all 4 dest options turned to "chosen destinations" and it seems to run ok. If i turn off them all - still runs ok. But the moment i turn pax dest back on - assert.
02:35<Celestar>where is that game?
02:35<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14164 /trunk/src/ (ini.cpp ini_type.h settings.cpp):
02:35<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Codechange: simplify and unify the addition of ini items with value when not loading an ini file.
02:35<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix: wrong insertion management causing leaks.
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02:37<Celestar>got same assert
02:37<Celestar>fixing (=
02:38<Tim>Good morning!
02:40<Tim>How's it going? :)
02:42<Noldo>wasting time mostly
02:42<Celestar>wondering why some cargo wants to go from A to A (=
02:43<Noldo>it doesn't know it's already there
02:44<Celestar>yeah, because it happens when you activate cargodest
02:45<Tim>It just feels like seing some of the landscape
03:03<Celestar>peter1138: are you around?
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03:59<Celestar>why is it so quiet here (=
04:00<Forked>monday morning
04:00<Forked>there just is not enough coffee in the world
04:00<Forked>but tonight I shall play with cargodest! wooh.
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04:01<Celestar>it's still not completely finished :(
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04:04<@Rubidium>and you said it would've been a few days of work ;)
04:07<Celestar>Rubidium: well, the basic system was a few days of work (=
04:07<Celestar>Rubidium: now comes the fine-tuning (=
04:08<Noldo>the last 20% of features ans 80% of work?
04:08<Celestar>Noldo: mor 10%/90%
04:08<Celestar>or 5%/95% even :P
04:08<@Rubidium>and it isn't even the group of "last features" as those are already delayed
04:09<@Rubidium>(or should I say deferred?)
04:11<Celestar>er .. never planned in the first place
04:12<Celestar>plus I want this done right at the first shot
04:12<Celestar>and right from a feature, coding and performance point of view (=
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04:22<Forked>meep meep
04:22<Forked>coffee! brb
04:23<@peter1138>We should switch to freenode, that never splits!
04:23<Celestar>hey peter1138 (=
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04:29<Celestar>peter1138: I could use some help
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04:31<Celestar>peter1138: because my cargolist code causes segfaults in the saveload :P
04:35<Celestar>but then, cargolists are not saved ..
04:35<Celestar>and it segfaults in the saveload code.
04:36<Celestar>in the vehicle-saveload code. but I'm not changing the vehicle class ...
04:39<@peter1138>How to reproduce?
04:39<Celestar>I'll give you my diff
04:39<Celestar>it's alphaish and incomplete, but it shows you the idea
04:40*Celestar wishes his week wouldn't be as busy :S
04:40<Celestar>peter1138: btw I like the idea about the intermediate orders on the forums
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04:42<@peter1138>Cool ;)
04:43<@peter1138>Btw, you've still go StationID index.
04:44<Celestar>I haven't done much
04:44<@peter1138>That might not help.
04:44<Celestar>I've the final report of my research project coming up
04:44<Celestar>so I'll have to shove some cargodest workload your way the next 2 weeks :P
04:44<@peter1138>Hmm, no, I'm mixing up CargoList with CargoPacket, he
04:45<Celestar>I do that regularly :P
04:46<@Rubidium>Celestar: could you make your webserver tell the browsers that diffs are text files?
04:46<Celestar>Rubidium: how do I do so?
04:47<Celestar>I don't have much idea about mimetypes in apache
04:47<@Rubidium>modify /etc/mime.types?
04:49<Celestar>Rubidium: text/x-patch diff patch
04:49<@Rubidium>move the 'diff patch' to text/plain
04:52<Celestar>better now?
04:53<Celestar>peter1138: we could handle "unconditional" conditional order couldn't we?
04:55<@Rubidium>nah, still wants to download it
04:55<@Rubidium>have you reloaded your webserver?
04:55<Celestar>peter1138: at A I have passengers wishing to go to D by using A->B->C->D. What should happen if a route from A->D is no longer found? Drop the cargo?
04:55<Celestar>Rubidium: yes
04:56<@Rubidium>still says text/x-patch :(
04:57<Celestar>maybe it uses another file?
04:58<@peter1138>Length: 13,492 (13K) [text/plain]
04:58<Celestar>peter1138: I could also reroute ..
04:58<@peter1138>Your browser has probably cached it...
04:58<Celestar>Rubidium: apparently your browser cached it
04:58<Celestar>heh @ peter1138
04:58<@Rubidium>my wget says the same
04:58<@Rubidium>as my browser says
04:58<@Rubidium>i.e. text/x-patch
04:58<@Rubidium>so my ISP has some cache?
04:59<@peter1138>Could do.
04:59<Forked>Length: 13,492 (13K) [text/plain]
04:59<@peter1138>Celestar, rename the patch ;)
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04:59<Celestar>peter1138: or I could leave the packets there and user to sort out a route for the passengers (=
05:00<@peter1138>I don't know, I've not figured out how to even use them yet...
05:00<Celestar>peter1138: er use what? :P
05:00<@Rubidium>yay ;) that works
05:00<@peter1138>Conditional orders.
05:01<Celestar>peter1138: heh. ok
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05:16<Celestar>peter1138: RFC:
05:18<Celestar>better than "via anywhere" isn't it?
05:21<blathijs>Is there any way to gracefully handle the removal of a route?
05:21<@peter1138>Yeah, it explains the problem :)
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05:21<blathijs>Ie, mark a train as deprecated, meaning that it will continue driving only for as long as there are passengers that need it?
05:21<Celestar>blathijs: not yet (=
05:22<blathijs>So currently, you'll just end up with those "no route" passengers (which disappear after a timeout or so?)
05:22<Celestar>or the station is removed
05:23<Forked>make it a news thing.. "passengers angry after <company> shuts down route between X and Y"
05:23<Celestar>you volunteering? (=
05:23<Forked>I can be angry passenger #48
05:24<Prof_Frink>Celestar: "1 passengers"?
05:24<Celestar>Prof_Frink: that's no cargodest thingy
05:24<Celestar>that's somewhere else
05:25<Celestar>haven't found it yet
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05:34<Celestar>so peter1138, I'll be mostly out of the loop for a fortnight, maybe a bit more. You've got to stand ground at cargodest on your own :P
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05:48<@peter1138>Gah, I keep getting thrown out of SDL's fullscreen ;(
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06:04<@peter1138>Hmm, did a replace and my route vanished :o
06:04<Celestar>uh oh
06:09<Celestar>"rn rr" :P
06:09<Celestar>and a debug :P
06:13<Celestar>TTRS is INSANE
06:15<Celestar>my passengers are reproducing like rabbits
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>it's not cool when the passengers waiting at a station exceed the town's population...
06:18<@peter1138>Yeah... I still don't know if that a bug in our newhouses handing, or ttrs...
06:26<Celestar>all of these stations are FULL
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06:26<Celestar>I'm off to get some work done
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06:29<Ammler>did someone play with NACities and cargodest?
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06:58<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14165 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: When over-building rail with a different type, don't convert the rail if the engines of the new type are powered on the existing type.
07:02<@peter1138>Gah, silly ROADTYPE_HWAY :p
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't know why that was even introduced :)
07:12<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: if you have long straight roads with many different road vehicle speeds, it helps to have better chances for overtaking...
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it was never implemented...
07:13<Ammler>oh, you don't mean Oneway roads?
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean the 3rd road type
07:34<celtic_cross>Atm I'm playing a cargodest game and one of the stations inhibits strange behavior. I've got a small bus route inside a town (3 busses and 3 stations, also served by trams, not connected to railway) and a tram network (9 stations, connected to railway). One of the stations with both busses and trams have about 1k passengers, wanting to go through railway station, but they won't use trams unless i delete my bus route. Is this a
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07:36<Noldo>celtic_cross: Is this a....
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07:40<Progman>you didn't finished your sentence ;)
07:41<celtic_cross>Is this a bug or something i don't understand? Reloading game doesn't help.
07:41<Progman>they use only one way although there may be more routes to reach the target
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07:46<celtic_cross>The only way to get to railway is to use trams atm. However, i think i had that particular bus route connected to railway before, but deleted bus stop... Still, only one station of the 3 served by busses behaves this way.
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07:49<Noldo>Tell "The Team" ie. celestar and peter1138 about it
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07:55<Noldo>Celestar: celtic_cross had another problem
07:56<Celestar>he had?
07:58<Celestar>celtic_cross: you got a savegame of that?
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08:01<Ammler>what is that penalty for? rail_doubleslip_penalty
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>for when two switches are on one tile, i think
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08:09<celtic_cross>Celestar, yes i do. Alhough, i think i got it - bus route acts as a shortcut for a longer tram route and everyone wants to use the shorter one. Even though it is really underserved.
08:10<FauxFaux>Mmm, why does the second line on the Vehicles' patches, forbid 90°, say that it requires NPF, even though it works fine with (we love) YAPF?
08:10<Noldo>FauxFaux: it's old stuff, predates yapf
08:11<FauxFaux>Basically, the message is wrong? :)
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08:11<Forked>it's outdated
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08:13<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: like that?
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08:13<Celestar>celtic_cross: yeah. No way around that at the moment. sorry (=
08:14<Ammler>Celestar: mesure the waiting time?
08:15<Ammler>should be somehow possible as it is also needed for the paying...
08:16<Celestar>Ammler: the pathfinder returns zero or one route from A to B.
08:16<Celestar>the system doesn't see any other routes
08:17<Ammler>I was commenting to celtic_cross
08:17<Ammler>you have 2 routes there tram (overserved, fast) and bus (underserved, slow)
08:18<Celestar>only way would be to maybe change the edge weights when there is excessive cargo waiting, maybe on a One-Station-Per-Tick basis
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08:19<Celestar>but that will cause the route network to be re-path-found every tick, and we hit performance issues
08:19<blathijs>FauxFaux: I think the message should say "Doesn't work with OPF"
08:19<Ammler>couldn't you just give penalties to routes, which have long waiting times?
08:20<Celestar>Ammler: the question is: how often
08:20<Ammler>you do that at same time, when it get paid...
08:20<FauxFaux>blathijs: That took me a while to work out, and I kind of know what I'm talking about. ¬_¬
08:20<Celestar>Ammler: giving a penalty to a route causes the WHOLE routing cache go invalid. This cannot happen more often than a handful of times per month.
08:21<Celestar>which is ok.
08:21<blathijs>FauxFaux: The problem is that OPF doesn't store the direction you're coming from, so you can't tell if a turn wil be 90 degree
08:22<FauxFaux>I understand the problem, I mean that that's not a clear message either.
08:22<blathijs>FauxFaux: NPF (and I presume YAPF) do store this (ie, they include the angle in the state)
08:22<Celestar>Ammler: the entire reason for the routing system to basically have no impact on performance is that we don't modify its parameters left and right ;)
08:23<Celestar>celtic_cross: show me your savegame please
08:25<Ammler>Celestar: maybe you could fill a intermediate penalty list until you rebuild the routing cache...
08:26<celtic_cross>Sending via dcc.
08:26<Ammler>it is something, which doesn't change ofteh and don't need to react that fast
08:27<blathijs>Celestar: Currently passengers always pick a specific route? Or only transfer stations?
08:27<celtic_cross>What about manually defining routes from a to b, which would override automatically defined? As in, which network to use to get from a to b. After which it is up to user to provide valid service of route.
08:28<Ammler>celtic_cross: the idea of pax/cargo dest is to have that automatically
08:28<Ammler>else you have the current system...
08:29<Noldo>Ammler: I disagree
08:29<Noldo>Ammler: the idea of destinations is that there are destinations
08:29<Ammler>if you define the routes self, what is the difference to now?
08:30<Celestar>blathijs: cargo picks specific transfer stations
08:30<Noldo>Ammler: now you can drop the cargo off where ever you want
08:30<Celestar>celtic_cross: I've thought about something like manual override. dunno what Rubidium and peter1138 think about it
08:31<Celestar>celtic_cross: if you could show me your savegame it could have a look (=
08:31<celtic_cross>Can you receive dcc transfers?
08:31<Celestar>possibly, try it
08:32<Ammler>so you define orders and then routes?
08:32<Celestar>Ammler: you define orders, they define routes
08:32<celtic_cross>Apart from ottdcoop package, it uses russian trams set. Do you have it?
08:32<Ammler>but if you like to do that manually?
08:34<Celestar>Ammler: but we could add conditionals to the orders (don't transport cargo from A to C) or something
08:34<Ammler>or just a penalty
08:34<Ammler>so you would still have some
08:34<Celestar>there is no some
08:34<Celestar>it's all-or-nothing
08:34<Celestar>you guys make this difficult (-;
08:35<Ammler>the condition to not work as a transfer line, would help
08:35<Celestar>Ammler: heh. that actually would be implemented with 5 or 10 lines (=
08:35<Ammler>I guess, that would be the easiest solution
08:35<Ammler>also for gameplay
08:35<Celestar>er wait ..
08:36<Ammler>but for later version, someone would like to define routes :-)
08:36<Celestar>plus 15 lines and somehow telling the pathfinder what to do
08:36<Ammler>with timetables :P
08:36<Ammler>arrive at 03 depart on plattform 4 at 07 :-)
08:37<Celestar>celtic_cross: ok what town/stations are we talking about?
08:37<celtic_cross>micromanagement ftw :)
08:37<celtic_cross>Pintonn west
08:37<celtic_cross>err, Pinnton
08:38<Celestar>I don't see any buses from there
08:38<celtic_cross>Err, there should be 3.
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08:39<Celestar>heh ok. it doesn't work without the rtset
08:40<Celestar>what exactly is tourw.grf?
08:40<celtic_cross>Russian trams set with tourist for ecs.
08:40<Celestar>where to get that one?
08:41<Celestar>that's russina
08:41<Celestar>please DCC me russianw.grf and tourw.grf
08:41<celtic_cross>That's a link from grfcawler.
08:42<Ammler>russian trams?
08:42<Ammler>from coyote?
08:42<celtic_cross>I think yes.
08:42<Ammler>there are still GRFs not in our pack ;-)
08:43<celtic_cross>Wile E. Coyote mentioned in credits.
08:43<Celestar>celtic_cross: ok .. everything goes via Central, right?
08:43<celtic_cross>Those trams have names in ciryllic
08:44<celtic_cross>I guess yes, due to buss route. But should go straight to railway station via trams.
08:44<Celestar>yeah, but the trams don't go "straight" to the railway station.
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08:45<Celestar>they take a huge detour
08:46<Celestar>which basically is your problem there (=
08:46<celtic_cross>Well, i'm not a simple pathfinder, it doesn't looks huge to me, since bus route is underserved.
08:47<Celestar>unfortunately, I currently see hardly any way around it
08:47<blathijs>FauxFaux: I fixed the message
08:47<Celestar>or make a direct tram (=
08:47<FauxFaux>blathijs: Woo, thanks. :)
08:48<celtic_cross>Looks like the only solution.
08:50<Celestar>celtic_cross: or direct buses
08:50<Celestar>celtic_cross: sorry (=
08:51<blathijs>Sounds like you want to allow multiple routes or something? Or include the utilisation of a particular vehicle/route in the cost?
08:51<blathijs>all kindof icky
08:52<celtic_cross>Actually, I thought it was that way. That's why i was surprised.
08:52<Celestar>blathijs: see above. I can include the utilization, but I can only change that RARELY (meaning a handful times per month)
08:52<blathijs>Celestar: Yeah, but that could be enough
08:52<Celestar>blathijs: it could indeed (=
08:53<blathijs>Celestar: The problem is, how do you measure utilisation? If you use the current utilisation, you would get a hysteresis effect I guess
08:53<CIA-5>OpenTTD: matthijs * r14166 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Doc: Change "forbid 90 degree turn" patch option description to say "not with NTP" instead of "requires NPF" (which has been untrue since the introduction of YAPF). Thanks to FauxFaux for pointing this out.
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08:56<Celestar>blathijs: it will take LONG to adjust to an underserved route
08:57<blathijs>The problem is that you actually don't want to include penalties, but include bonusses
08:57<blathijs>ie, just add a bonus for the route's capacity
08:57<Celestar>then an edge's cost can drop below 0
08:57<Celestar>dunno if dijkstra likes that
08:58<blathijs>Nope, it doesn't. At least A* doesn't :-)
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08:59<blathijs>Perhaps Dijkstra can be made to work with it, if you just cap the cost at 0
08:59<Ammler>blathijs: TTDP non-stop behavier is also bad described...
09:00<blathijs>Celestar: You could also make a penalty, that is the maximum capacity of all routes, minus the capacity of this route :-)
09:00<blathijs>But that's iffy
09:01<blathijs>Ammler: Suggestions for a better description?
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09:03<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: made once a nice
09:03<blathijs>Celestar: In the end, you want the cost of an edge in the routing network to represent the expected time to use that edge
09:03<blathijs>Celestar: Ie, waiting time + travel time
09:04<blathijs>Celestar: Currently, I think that the (base) cost is travel time only? Or are there other factors used?
09:05<celtic_cross>Adding more micromanagement to routes is not an option?
09:06<Celestar>blathijs: DistanceManhattan * vehicle_factor (=
09:06<Progman>I guess its on the TODO list but it must be choosen with care
09:07<Celestar>celtic_cross: not at the current state
09:07<Celestar>later, sure
09:08-!-Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
09:11-!-KillaloT [] has joined #openttd
09:13<celtic_cross>What vehicle_factor stands for?
09:14<Celestar>1 for aircraft, 2 for trains, 3 for road vehicles and 4 for ships
09:14<Celestar>I have an unfinished diff that makes them configurable
09:15<@peter1138>And when caching stuff, remember you can only cache stuff that can be recalculated exactly, on load.
09:15<@peter1138>So periodic updates are out.
09:15<celtic_cross>That means different vehicles of the same network type would all be used, right?
09:19<celtic_cross>I thought routing was quite sophisticated, since it wasn't posted on wiki right away. :)
09:23<blathijs>Celestar: But multiple vehicles produce multiple edges in the routing graph?
09:23-!-Dred_furst [] has joined #openttd
09:23<Celestar>blathijs: only if their orders aren't shared
09:24<blathijs>And then when dijkstra'ing through the routing graph, multiple edges are ignored (ie, only the lowest-cost is used, I guess?)
09:24<blathijs>(It seems quite arbitrary to treat shared orders different to identical orders, actually, btw)
09:26<Celestar>blathijs: it reduces memory usage
09:26<Celestar>it makes no difference otherwise
09:26<@peter1138>Hmm, my NewGRF config is busted... some problem with ini-saving?
09:27<Ammler>peter1138: r14153 or so
09:29<Celestar>blathijs: but you're right, only the lowest-cost is used
09:31<@peter1138>Identical orders are not identical... ;o
09:33-!-welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
09:36*SpComb yawns
09:37*TrueBrain spits while SpComb yawns :p
09:37<TrueBrain>oeh, that is nasty :p
09:37<@Belugas>hello all
09:37<Forked>greetings, sir and/or ma'am
09:38<TrueBrain>he is a sir
09:38<Forked>my greetings are internet proof
09:38<Forked>(and future proof)
09:39<TrueBrain>well, I think it is safe to say there are 97 males in this channel
09:39<TrueBrain>of 1 person I am not sure (I won't call your name yorick)
09:39-!-Mortal [] has joined #openttd
09:39<Forked>no bots/clones?
09:39<TrueBrain>bots are male to :p
09:39-!-Kommer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:39<TrueBrain>@kick DorpsGek
09:39<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: I cowardly refuse to kick myself.
09:40-!-GoneWacko [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:40<yorick>TrueBrain: I am quite sure I am male...
09:40<yorick>@kick TrueBrain
09:40<TrueBrain>pfew :)
09:40<Sacro>@kick Bj...
09:40<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Error: Bj... is not in #openttd.
09:40<Sacro>aww :(
09:41<Sacro>@kick yorick
09:41-!-Fuco [] has joined #openttd
09:41<TrueBrain>lol, funny that he FIRST checks for the name, than if you are allowed...
09:41<TrueBrain>weird bot
09:41<Prof_Frink>@kick me
09:41<@DorpsGek>Prof_Frink: Error: me is not in #openttd.
09:41<TrueBrain>I have enough to do :p
09:41<Gekz>@kick noone
09:41<@DorpsGek>Gekz: Error: noone is not in #openttd.
09:41<Gekz>@kick yorick
09:41<TrueBrain>@kick Prof_Frinkokay
09:41<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: Prof_Frinkokay is not in #openttd.
09:41-!-Prof_Frink was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
09:41-!-Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
09:42-!-Fuco [] has quit []
09:42<Prof_Frink>Yes, Sacro is.
09:42<blathijs>Celestar: If you only use the lowest cost, than indeed it won't make a difference to treat shared orders differently from identical orders (though, hypothetically, would it be possible to share orders between different vehicle types?)
09:43-!-Fuco [] has joined #openttd
09:43<TrueBrain>welcome back Fuco
09:43<blathijs>Celestar: But then, for consistency, it might be better to never have multiple edges between nodes, or at least not when their costs would be identical (so, their vehicle type is identical)
09:44-!-GoneWacko [] has joined #openttd
09:44<TrueBrain>wb GoneWacko
09:45<Fuco>hi :)
09:45<yorick>TrueBrain: you migt add 'k' somewhere
09:45<blathijs>Celestar: But, as far as I can see, the problem is that cargo always takes a single route between two stations, even if multiple routes are available?
09:46<blathijs>Celestar: Which is the shortest route, which is perfectly fine as long as the cargo produced does not exceed the capacity of that route
09:46<TrueBrain>yorick: rankdom?
09:47<blathijs>Celestar: But if the produced cargo exceeds the capacity of the shortest route, you want the cargo to take the next longer route (if that route does have sufficient capacity)
09:47<yorick>TrueBrain: @echo $randomNick
09:48<blathijs>Celestar: ideally, you would want to split the cargo, filling up all routes from the shortest upwards.
09:49-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
09:49<blathijs>Celestar: But I think that's really a lot of extra complexity
09:49<blathijs>havin fffasldfkjsdaf/win 22
09:49<blathijs>My internet connection recovered :-)
09:50-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
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09:51<blathijs>Celestar: And that would be realistic for cargo, but passengers might have different heuristics to determine their route (at least in reality)
09:53-!-Zahl_ [] has joined #openttd
09:53<Celestar>reading back
09:54<blathijs>Celestar: The main problem is that which route to take depends heavily on the produced cargo and the capacity of a route
09:54<Celestar>blathijs: it IS a lot of extra complexity and imho not something for the first shot at cargodest
09:54<blathijs>where the first one can change frequently, and the second is non-trivial to determine
09:54<blathijs>Celestar: I'm just brainstorming in general, not suggesting you implement stuff directly :-)
09:57<Celestar>blathijs: imho the user should optimize his routes. not the routes optimize themselves
09:57<Celestar>that's something for the AI to do ^^
09:58<blathijs>Celestar: Yeah, so it's probably better to give the users extra tools to instruct the routing system
09:58<blathijs>Celestar: Perhaps signifying stations as transfer/non-transfer would help?
09:59<blathijs>Though that's probably way too limited
10:00-!-Zahl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:00-!-Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
10:01*peter1138 has a problem with express routes.
10:02<Celestar>peter1138: why?
10:04<@peter1138>Same problem. They take all the long distance cargo even if it's over capacity.
10:04<Celestar>heh (=
10:05<Celestar>I'm off for a bit, we can resume discussing later
10:10-!-De_Ghosty [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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10:18-!-yorick [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:20<Celestar>blathijs: maybe you can look through the code a bit if you have ideas. it's all in routing.*
10:22<@peter1138>Problem I see with spreading cargo over routes is you need to keep some state, then.
10:22<Celestar>peter1138: I quite agree
10:22<Celestar>peter1138: we could have 3 routing networks with different edge weights :P
10:23<Celestar>and select one :P
10:24<blathijs>peter1138: If you just do routing based on a chances, you would get away without state I think?
10:24<blathijs>Though that could mean that a train leaves behind cargo because randomness says it wants to take another route :-)
10:28-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
10:28<Celestar>peter1138: just "penalize" only transfers, not transits (stopovers without vehicle change)
10:32<Celestar>for that we'd "just" need to save subsequent edges or something
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10:37<celtic_cross>Is there a way to sort output of rn lv alphabetically?
10:38<blathijs>What's an rn lv?
10:39<celtic_cross>It lists stations in routing network
10:39<+glx>blathijs: console command
10:39-!-ddraigbot is now known as welshdragon
10:40<blathijs>ah, right :-)
10:40<Celestar>celtic_cross: just filter it
10:41<celtic_cross>Just did it, took me some time to notice filter option :(
10:42<@Belugas>question for all who would like to comment: Would you like the hability to repay your loan (based on your owning, of course) automically once a month, once every 6 months, once a year?
10:42<@Belugas>personnaly, i think it wiollbe a mess
10:42<@Belugas>just like... borrow, and oupss... end of month, all has been taken back by the bank :S
10:42<@Belugas>silly, but someone asked for it. so... good idea, or bad?
10:43<@Belugas>of course, setting will only apply to the player who wants it
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10:48<planetmaker>not really needed
10:49<Forked>lazy people can repay themself.. If anything you could have a 20 year where you just pay the rent, but then you have to start paying down X % every month/year
10:50<TrueBrain>Belugas: bad idea :)
10:54<@Belugas>perfect, i think you are all thinking like me :)
10:55<@Belugas>on that matter :P
10:56<Prof_Frink>Belugas: A "You have half a billion quid, do you really want to be paying interest on that £100k loan?" warning would be nice.
10:57<@peter1138>Wasn't that George's request? heh
10:57<@Belugas>yes it was, peter1138
10:58<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: it is like you expect your bank to knock on your door, telling you you have enough money to repay your loan .. is not going to happen I think :p
10:58<@Rubidium>Prof_Frink: no, the player should be fined heavily for it
10:58<@Belugas>Prof_Frink, i think warnings are not really fun in game.
10:59<@peter1138>The loan behaves more like an overdraft than a loan.
10:59<@peter1138>Rubidium, is this NewGRF settings bug yours? :D
11:00<@Rubidium>not that I know of
11:00<@Rubidium>but I'll gladly reassign it to you if you like to
11:00<@peter1138>... Not really :p
11:01<@peter1138>Something to do with your ini changes, but...
11:02<@peter1138>The list is double each time it is read/saved.
11:03<@peter1138>Hmm, my NewGRF config is now 1186 lines :p
11:04-!-fjb_ [] has joined #openttd
11:04-!-SpComb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:05<Forked>Home to play. \o
11:06<Celestar>peter1138: ?
11:06<Celestar>> wc -l bin/openttd.cfg
11:06<Celestar>3683 bin/openttd.cfg
11:07<@peter1138>See ;)
11:07<Celestar>every appears at least 30 times :P
11:07<Celestar>every newgrf*
11:07<Celestar>we're leaking HDD space (=
11:08<Celestar>maybe THAT's why my openttd startup takes now about 45 seconds?
11:08-!-stillunk1own [] has joined #openttd
11:08<Celestar>> wc -l bin/openttd.cfg
11:08<Celestar>6900 bin/openttd.cfg
11:08<hylje>we'd have got awesome optimizations if you hadn't noticed that
11:08<Celestar>oh nice ;)
11:08-!-fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:08<Celestar>lol @ hylje
11:08*FauxFaux really needs to set-up builds done against svn to use a different .cfg, 'cos the nightlies appear to erase things from it.
11:08<Celestar>peter1138: you're right, the newgrf section doubles in size each time the game is run :P
11:10*Celestar wonders why openttd is that slowing parsing the cfg file :P
11:10-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:10<hylje>maybe because it's a few megabytes in size?
11:11<Celestar>it's only 200k :P
11:11<Celestar>well, 400k in a minute or two :P
11:12-!-SpComb [] has joined #openttd
11:15<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14167 /trunk/src/ (ini.cpp ini_type.h settings.cpp): -Fix: items in some ini-groups got duplicated on save.
11:17<Celestar>thanks Rubidium :d
11:19-!-Reemo [] has joined #openttd
11:24<Celestar> <= I think that's awesome (=
11:27<FauxFaux>Shame you can't see the other signal from behind.
11:27<Sacro>*in front
11:27<Sacro>you can see all railway signals from behind
11:27<Sacro>the lights are on the back
11:27<Sacro>the front points into the next block
11:27*Sacro rants
11:28<Celestar> <= hm .. wagons are either too short or the track too wide
11:29<Celestar> <= compare :P
11:30<Prof_Frink>Sacro: Can we agree that the bit of the signal furthest from the ground is the "top"?
11:31<TrueBrain>Celestar: gcc 4.3 gives a deprecated warning on routing.cpp (line 11)
11:31<TrueBrain>just so you know :)
11:32<Sacro>Prof_Frink: alright
11:32<FauxFaux>Prof_Frink: Snicker.
11:32<Sacro>FauxFaux: Marathon.
11:33<Celestar>TrueBrain: I know. it's somehow a boost-stl mismatch or something
11:33<Celestar>TrueBrain: nothing to do with openttd :S
11:34<Celestar>only way around is -Wno-deprecated (=
11:35<hylje>holy pixelation
11:35<Celestar>hylje: ?
11:35<@peter1138>64 pixels is enough for everyone!
11:36<hylje>Celestar: highres sprites on normalres sprites
11:36<Prof_Frink>Branston pixel?
11:36<Celestar>hylje: yes
11:38<Celestar>peter1138: I wonder what's the next thing that needs doing on cargodest
11:38<Celestar>I have an hour break
11:38<Celestar>can't we make the tracks half as wide? :P
11:39<Celestar>or the passenger wagons three times as long (=
11:39-!-fjb_ is now known as fjb
11:40<fjb>The tracks are too wide compared to the trains.
11:42<Celestar>yeah, by a factor of about 2.5 :P
11:42<hylje>count the windows
11:42<Celestar>the ICE-3M carries no less than 6 pantographs
11:42<Celestar>using whichever is needed for the country it runs
11:44<Celestar>that's like an airplane carrying 6 types of landing, only using one at a time :P
11:45<Celestar>landing gear *
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11:48-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
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11:51*fjb wishes a BR 189 for the DBset.
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12:00<Celestar>fjb: is that the Eurosprinter or something?
12:00<fjb>Something based on the Eurosprinter family.
12:01<@peter1138>Celestar, the problem with longer train graphics is bends...
12:01*Celestar is amazed that the Eurosprinter still has less TE than the BR103
12:01<Celestar>peter1138: yeah I know ...
12:01<Celestar>peter1138: I was just b!tching around (=
12:01<fjb>Rubber wagons...
12:02*Celestar wonders how many engines have more HP and TE than the BR103
12:02<fjb>BR 103 had 6 axles, Eurosprinter has only 4.
12:03<fjb>HP are not the problem, TE is with fewer axles.
12:04*Prof_Frink runs over fjb with a Super Sprinter
12:05<Celestar>fjb: well, apparently the Big Boy had a TE of about twice that of the BR103
12:05*fjb hunts Prof_Frink with a Super Soaker.
12:05<Celestar>then again, it has 5 times the mass
12:05-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
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12:06<fjb>Look at the diesel engines from the Canadian set. They have much TE but really suck at HP.
12:07<Celestar>methinks the BR103 and BR101 are the only real allrounders
12:07<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14168 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Codechange: Make dropdown 'auto_width' a separate parameter, so that a minimum width can be specified.
12:08<Celestar>heh interesting stuff on wikipedia about the BR101 vs BR103
12:08<FauxFaux>What does the TE number actually mean, btw? :)
12:08<DaleStan>Tractive effort.
12:08<fjb>The BR 103 isn't. It has a too weak frame.
12:08<Celestar>Tractive Effort. Basically the maximum force an engine can deliver
12:09<@peter1138>Hmm, Z scale BR103 :o
12:09<Celestar>fjb: yeah a bit. but the BR101 even pulls 2000ton Trains (single engine afaik)
12:09<DaleStan>The force that the engine can deliver to the train without having the wheels slip.
12:10<Celestar>which, on paper, the BR103 surpasses the BR101.
12:10-!-frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
12:10<fjb>The BR 101 came almost 30 years after the BR 103. The BR 120 had real problems with the light weight frame.
12:10<Celestar>however, when the BR103 begins to slip, it has to reduce power overall. the BR101 can control each axle invididually
12:10<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14169 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: rename location_of_house for location_of_HQ, which is more exact and less subject to interpretation
12:10<Celestar>fjb: the BR120 was THE predecessor to all modern high-speed trains.
12:11<fjb>peter1138: Look at the train sets with animated staem engines. That really looks like Z scale.
12:11<Celestar>the BR120 was the first commercially used rotary-current engine
12:12<fjb>The BR 120 was a bit too experimental. They shouldn't have experimented with a light frame that much.
12:12<Celestar>fjb: funnily enough, the BR101 is still one ton lighter than the BR120
12:12<Celestar>but trains are heavy as crap anyway
12:13<fjb>Don't let e train go over your foot.
12:13<Celestar>funny how the Big Boys were meant to pull trains at slopes up to like 1.5%
12:13*peter1138 only dreams of electric locomotives...
12:13<@peter1138>(I hate DMUs :o)
12:14<Celestar>and the ICE3 goes 4% on FRA-CGN.
12:14<Celestar>with 300km/h (could do more)
12:15*Sacro revises the shunting yard algorithm
12:15<Celestar> <= heh
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12:16<Celestar>that's about as many wheels as an AGV has :P
12:17<Celestar>it's MORE wheels than an 11-car AGV has :P
12:18<fjb>peter1138: Don't play with any nothern american train set. :-)
12:19<@peter1138>Hmm, there was some guy on here once who though all DMUs were actually DEMUs... can't remember who though.
12:20<fjb>Many people don't belive that hydraulic gets actually used in trains.
12:20<Celestar>fjb: what about it?
12:20<@peter1138>diesel electric...
12:20<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14170 /trunk/src/road_type.h: -Codechange: Missing enum for road type iteration.
12:20<Sacro>fjb: they are aren't they? :o
12:20<Sacro>i thought they used the engine to generate electric
12:20<fjb>Celestar: that one has also a lot of axles and all are powerd.
12:21<Sacro>which then powers motors
12:21<Celestar>fjb: yeah
12:21<Celestar>peter1138: most Diesel engines for passenger transport are diesel-electric from what I know
12:21<Celestar>at least in any country with serious railways services (=
12:22<@peter1138>Tell that to my local railway :p
12:22<fjb>Most German diesels use hydraulic.
12:22<@peter1138>Which is owned by DB...
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12:22<Celestar>fjb: ?
12:23<@peter1138>Sacro, class 1xx are DMU, class 2xx are DEMU... but you knew that.
12:23<Sacro>did i?
12:23<Sacro>oh yes
12:24<Sacro>and 3xx is EMU
12:24<fjb>Diesel electric engines are new to German railways. All older designs and many of the new designs are diesel hydraulic.
12:25<@peter1138>Heh, BR class 201, made in 1957...
12:25<fjb>Diesel electric is heavily used in nothern america.
12:25<@peter1138>And pretty ugly :D
12:26<fjb>Many of the british designs are looking a bit strange wehn you are not british... :-)
12:26<Sacro>peter1138: tis... rustic
12:27<Celestar>mesa no liken diesel engines
12:27<@peter1138>The only electric on my local line is the 3rd & 4th rail starting further down.
12:28<Sacro>nearest electric from here is ECML
12:28<Celestar>In two years, Munich will get its FIRST high-speed railway connecting (>200km/h)
12:28<@peter1138>And those Metropolitan line trains are not particularly exciting.
12:29<@peter1138>I blame the stupid metro system for reaching so far...
12:29<@peter1138>Classic case of shared infrastructure patches...
12:30<hylje>un-spanish that
12:31<@peter1138>Actually the London 'underground' used to reach past here, but I guess 60 miles out of town is a bit silly for a metro.
12:31<hylje>not really
12:31*Celestar wonders whether the AGV can go Franfurt-Cologne or not
12:31<hylje>direct connections to mid-city? yesplz
12:32<@peter1138>Takes quite a long time even from the shortened line.
12:32<hylje>doesnt need to be fast to be the fastest way there
12:32<hylje>population density, on the other hand..
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12:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14171 /trunk/src/unmovable_map.h:
12:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Make the test for HQ a bit lighter.
12:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: The presence of a HQ is only dictated by the 7th bit been set.
12:41<CIA-5>OpenTTD: The rest of the data is related to the size and the type.
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12:45-!-Sacro_ [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
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13:11<fjb>Hello Wolf01
13:15-!-M4rk is now known as Mark
13:16<CIA-5>OpenTTD: belugas * r14172 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
13:16<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Feature[newGRF]: Add support for property 0x13 for Bridges.
13:16<CIA-5>OpenTTD: In other words, one can now specifies a 16 bits cost multiplier.
13:18<fjb>Very expensive bridges?
13:18-!-FR^2 [] has joined #openttd
13:19<Ammler>thgergo: ^
13:21*Belugas can imagine the reactions: "the new bridges are cool, but can you restore the old cost, they are way too expensive" hhehe
13:21<@Belugas>NA WAY
13:21<fjb>Yeah, I wish his bridgeset would have support for other road sets.
13:22<fjb>Belugas: Make evrything chaeper and don't forget the ai that builds the network for me.
13:24-!-|Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
13:24<@Belugas>fjb, i'd say that supporting other road set is not too far away. but remember ione thing: actually, the artist has to provide the road set with the bridge itself
13:24<@Belugas>there are currently no overlay of the road
13:24<@Belugas>on the bridge
13:24<@Belugas>it's just... as si
13:24<@Belugas>as is
13:25<fjb>The overlays that peter1138 is working at doesn't work for bridges?
13:25<fjb>Or was that your "not too far away" part?
13:26<@peter1138>There will be, but I am working on rail types currently.
13:28<fjb>But it will get extended also to road types? Is that the same thing only for roads instead of rails?
13:28<@peter1138>Was "There will be" not clear enough? :)
13:30<fjb>Ok, I was just curious if it the same thing only for a different class of ways, tracks, whatever.
13:30<@peter1138>Well it'll be different but similar.
13:31<@peter1138>And there's still no thought as to having 3 road types, each possible on a tile, or limit to 2 road types on a tile and use the space to pick from a range of road types.
13:31<@peter1138>Well, okay, there is thought there, but no decision :)
13:32<fjb>That would have to make the road type independent from the the road bits in the map array?
13:34<@peter1138>Something like that.
13:34<@peter1138>The magic of map accessors at work.
13:35<@Rubidium>imagine how that change would be without the accessors
13:36<fjb>Hm, one bit in the map for "there is road" and then a lookup in a hashed array what type of road is there?
13:36<+glx>fjb: for each draw ?
13:37<+glx>no way
13:37<@peter1138>Rubidium, nightmareish? :)
13:37<@peter1138>fjb, it's a road tile.
13:37<@peter1138>For drawing, you don't need to know if the road type is road.
13:38<fjb>Ok, I just will be sitting here and waiting for the commit. Then I will see how you do it.
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13:48<Celestar>Rubidium: could you, at some point, do another code review of cargodest? No hurry however
13:48<@peter1138>Hmm, where are aqueducts drawn?
13:49<Prof_Frink>Depends where you build them.
13:50<@Rubidium>peter1138: tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp
13:51<@Rubidium>in the "normal" bridge drawing routines
13:51<@peter1138>Is it me or is line 1014 also executed for aqueducts?
13:52<@Rubidium>yes, it looks like it does that
13:53<@Belugas>[13:38] <fjb> Ok, I just will be sitting here and waiting for the commit. Then I will see how you do it. <-- Don't expect just one commit :)
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13:53<Celestar>Belugas: one commit for what?
13:54<@Belugas>peter's work
13:54<Celestar>peter1138: Rubidium: about that cl2.diff I showed earlier. Do you have any idea why it might segfault in the Vehicle loader?
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13:56<Forked>huh.. some of my trams sometimes get a cost when moving passengers.. thats not fair :p
13:56<Forked>(cargodest, the d98026c one? binary I found in the thread)
13:57<Celestar>Forked: yeah, because some money has been attributed to the former vehicles of the cargopacket
13:58<Forked>so the train got the money.. and the tram is out of luck? :)
13:58<@Rubidium>Celestar: my quick glance through the diff didn't find anything
13:58<@Rubidium>Celestar: could do another code review, but I'm going to hold you on the "no hurry" part of it
13:59<Celestar>Rubidium: no problem (=
13:59<Celestar>Forked: basically yeah :P
13:59<Forked>oki, thanks :)
13:59<Celestar>Forked: this will be fine-tuned later
14:04*Celestar reads about the debacle that is called Tilting Train and the DB
14:14<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14173 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Don't check for rail type and catenary on aqueducts.
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14:22<Niki->hi :)
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14:29<fjb>Catenary on aqueducts... :-)
14:30<yorick>could be...with electric ships?
14:30<Niki->hows it going? Iam playing ottd for a while and decided to intensivate it
14:30<fjb>It is going very well.
14:30<yorick>hows what?
14:30<Niki->real life ;) the most important thing on earth
14:30<Celestar>er what?
14:31<Celestar>"real life" exists? I thought it was a conspiracy theory
14:31<Niki->no it exists :) and there are alot of people having one...
14:32<yorick>no it doest
14:33<@Belugas>no, believe me Real Life DOES exists!
14:33<TrueBrain>bragging, aren't we? :p
14:34<TrueBrain>just becuase you have one, you don't have to put it in our face :(
14:34-!-death_ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:34<Niki->well I guess its your very own decision to get one or not ;)
14:37<fjb>They away from real life. It only gets you into trouble. Some people get addicted to it. We lost some good people to real life.
14:37<fjb>Stay not They
14:39<Celestar>do we still support MSVC6?
14:40<Forked>Celestar / peter1138: thank you, thank you, thank you for cargodest! :D
14:40<Celestar>heh :D
14:40<Celestar>no problem (=
14:41*Celestar actually enjoyed making it
14:41<Forked>I enjoy playing with it =)
14:42<Celestar>peter1138: who's this prissi guy?
14:43<@peter1138>Simutrans developer.
14:44<fjb>Are you able to build cannals on slopes in TTDP?
14:44<@peter1138>(After Hajo left)
14:45<Celestar>peter1138: he sounds a bit disgruntled about cargodest or am I just reading things?
14:45<yorick>fjb: yes, then they're called "locks"
14:47<@peter1138>Well he spent a while writing one and then abandoned it because we implemented cargopackets.
14:47<fjb>No, I don't mean locks, I'm talking about cannals that stay on the same level but are build on the sloped part of the shore.
14:47<@peter1138>You mean with foundations.
14:48*peter1138 wonders how to integrate a metro system in his game in 2284...
14:49<fjb>Kind of. How is this harbour made:
14:50<yorick>ajacent stations?
14:50<Wolf01>uh, the opengfx gui doesn't load :O
14:50<frosch123>fjb: canals at sea level
14:50<yorick>Wolf01: not as static
14:50<fjb>No, look at the passenger ship in the upper left part.
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14:51<Wolf01>uhm, maybe I should read the readmes first
14:52<fjb>But when you have cannals at sea level, then there are still slopes beside it. And you are not able to build station tiles on diagonal slopes.
14:53<frosch123>fjb: you can see where the slope is, look at the warehouse below the passenger ship
14:53<frosch123>the warehouse is at sea level, the road is not
14:54<frosch123>(I mean the pass. ship on the right, don't know which you meant)
14:54<yorick>they're nicely covered with roads :)
14:54<fjb>Ah, that is the trick.
14:55<fjb>It wouöd get flooded without the cannal around it.
14:55<Celestar>I'm off, cu
14:55<yorick>it wouldn't
14:55<yorick>the roads on slopes, I mean
14:56<fjb>But the station tiles would get flooded. Now I see it.
14:56<fjb>Thank you.
14:56<frosch123>fjb: and btw. ttdp does not have a lock tool, locks are built with the normal canal tool when clicking on slopes
14:57<Wolf01>12 years with only one bus in one city on a 64^2 map to repay the borrow!
14:57<fjb>Wolf01: masochistic?
14:58<fjb>frosch123: But the resulting locks are like ours only with a different building procedure?
14:58<yorick>openttd originally did too
14:58<yorick>but it splitted, which is why the scenario editor had no lock button for a long time
14:59<frosch123>fjb: yes, but you do not have to switch tools that often :)
14:59<Wolf01>the only difference, IIRC, TTDPatch locks make the ships to stop in the middle, then raise and continue
14:59<fjb>Hm, I don't mind, I'm not building that many locks.
15:00<DaleStan>Yep. In Patch, they work like Real-Life locks, not like sloped water.
15:00<Wolf01>nice, fast forward on 64^2 and just the time to write a thing and are passed 25 years
15:00<fjb>Hm, that sounds interesting. With some animated doors it could really look good.
15:01<@peter1138>DaleStan, how does it handle multiple ships?
15:01<fjb>Metro? Cool.
15:01<DaleStan>Well ... Um .. That's when the Real-Life bit kinda fails. Or you could pretend that there are lots of separate lock chambers.
15:01<Sacro>peter1138: 3rail?
15:02<Wolf01>[21:01:10] <peter1138> DaleStan, how does it handle multiple ships? <- by don't allowing multiple ships on the same tile... but in TTDPatch two ships can travel across the lock, one raising and one dropping at the same time without problems
15:03<@peter1138>Sacro, allegedly. Looks like a yellow fence to me.
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15:03<Sacro>me too
15:03<@peter1138>Wolf01, ah... just like Real-Life locks ;)
15:03<fjb>DaleStan: Schräges Wasser (sloped water):äges-Wasser-phantastischen-Erfindungen/dp/3871447684
15:03<Wolf01>ehm, not really, one INTO the other
15:04<@peter1138>Sacro, Purno drew it, I think.
15:04<Sacro>tis too high ><
15:04<@peter1138>There are bits of a proper 3rd rail system in the BRset, but not complete.
15:04<@peter1138>I'll try drawing one, but I can't draw too well :o
15:04<Sacro>yeah, i think i was supposed to be taking it over
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15:04<@peter1138>Too high and too far from the track.
15:05<@peter1138>Ouch, a 10 car metro train can carry 2480 passengers.
15:05<@peter1138>Sounds like Japan :)
15:06<@peter1138>Mind you, might be useful for all those TTRS passengers...
15:09<+glx><Celestar> do we still support MSVC6? <-- no we don't
15:11<Sacro>well we should
15:11*Sacro bangs fist on table
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15:14<Digitalfox>peter1138 what about narrow track like metro you showed here? Can it be done also?
15:16<Digitalfox>Or putting it in other words, can narrow track also have it's own construction menu like metro?
15:16<Wolf01> is possible to generate scenarios like this with TGP? (this is hand made)
15:17<SmatZ_>I think TGP generates more "random" terrain
15:18<Wolf01>yes, but *random* should contain this kind of shapes
15:18<Wolf01>like random(1000) should contain 123
15:19<@peter1138>Digitalfox, of course it can.
15:19<Wolf01>the only problem is that you can't modify some things by changing a number of the seed... you'll change the whole scenario
15:19<Digitalfox>peter1138 I mean not using the maglev menu but havig it's own menu like metro :)
15:19<@Rubidium>a purely random function can result in 123 never being returned in any finite amount of retries
15:20<@peter1138>Digitalfox, of course it can.
15:20<Digitalfox>peter1138 great =0
15:20<@peter1138>(16 rail types is enough for anyone, right?)
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15:21<Digitalfox>peter1138 who knows, maybe in 100 years will have more kinds of transport by rail track :p
15:21<@peter1138>searching for changes
15:21<@peter1138>** unknown exception encountered, details follow
15:21<Digitalfox>But i'm sure for next 50 years, it's enought ;)
15:23<Digitalfox>peter1138 can your changes also be applied to road track? Like having more kinds of road, example stone road ( a little too much too ask I know, but what the heck ) :)
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15:25<@peter1138>Digitalfox, one it's written for road types. They are totally separate to rail types.
15:25<@peter1138> < don't think that'll be possible though :o
15:26<Digitalfox>peter1138 lol
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15:32<hylje>Hahahaahaha..haha ...ha.
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15:32<Wolf01>uhm... /me is not able to make the opengfx gui work
15:33<Digitalfox>Oh a Belugas =0
15:33<Digitalfox>How are you Belugas ?
15:33<Wolf01>hi Belugas :D
15:33*Belugas hides
15:33<yorick>hi beluga
15:33*hylje replaces Belugas with Ponies
15:34<@Bjarni>"my little Beluga"?
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15:47<fjb>I guess I understood that harbour thing:
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15:50<Wolf01>OMG! I want those station on slopes... ehm.. they aren't on slopes, is the road on the slope -.-
15:51<Wolf01>what is to understand on that picture?
15:53<fjb>It's a kind of mgic. :-)
15:53<Wolf01>magic... more magic!
15:53<fjb>It's all illision.
15:53-!-Celestar [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:53<fjb>I can't type anymore. :-(
15:53<Wolf01>uh.. I cant catch it
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15:54<fjb>What is the problematic part? The eastern edge of the harbour is at sea level.
15:54<Wolf01>the canal
15:54<fjb>A cannal at sea level protects it from getting flooded.
15:55<Wolf01>eh, I made large use of those, that's normal for me
15:55<fjb>It was new to me.
15:56<Wolf01>I made an entire Oil loading station in a swamp made with newrivers at sea level
15:56<Wolf01>too bad I lost the scenario
15:56<Wolf01>but I should have a picture of it
15:57<fjb>In my picture is a hidden slope behind the south eastern buildings of the harbour. It is hiden by the road.
15:58<fjb>Nice swamp. Don't get lost there.
15:59<Wolf01>I really like the piece of station near the canal, the shelves and the fake lorry loading areas look like they are on a slope because of the road
15:59<planetmaker>nice map indeed!
15:59<fjb>You can see the foundation of the road above the hidden slope behind the south eastern crane.
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15:59<planetmaker>do rivers stop flooding?
16:00*Wolf01 wants newstations on slopes without foundations... a sloped non track station
16:00<@peter1138>You LOST that scenario? :(
16:00<Wolf01>I overwote it because I'm dumb
16:00<fjb>It got lost in its own swamp, I guess.
16:01<@peter1138>Mind you, shouldn't be too hard to recreate.
16:01<Wolf01>when I made the other one:
16:01<Wolf01>no, in fact I should be able to make it exactly the same, maybe not the same industries
16:02<@peter1138>Hmm, we need a river generator, with optional swamps... hehe...
16:02<planetmaker>nvm. Rivers stop flooding
16:05<fjb>Rocky mountains...
16:05<fjb>We need at least a river generator.
16:06<planetmaker>hehe. A bad generator still with flaws is this:
16:06<Wolf01>nice, I'm not able to load my scenarios.. the editor crashes
16:06-!-rortom [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:07<planetmaker>Actually it's so bad it needs rewriting from scratch... at least the river "path" finding.
16:08<fjb>But it is a start.
16:10<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14174 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: since now, we are 'losing' things, not 'loosing'
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16:14<fjb>I did load my last noai safe with cargodest now. That is a real difference...
16:15<SmatZ_>hmm yeah "safe -> save", I am sure there are a few places to replace in the OTTD sources...
16:15-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
16:15<fjb>Ok, I will never learn that.
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16:16<fjb>The cargodest enhanced noai game is great. :-)
16:16<SmatZ_>fjb: no problem for me, I am not good in English :-)
16:16<@peter1138>SmatZ_: safe -> save and save -> safe...
16:17<SmatZ_>peter1138: indeed
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16:43<CIA-5>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14175 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Rewrite the main toolbars to use the standard dropdown menu system, allowing flexible menus instead of fixed string lists, and removing code duplication.
16:43<Noldo>peter1138: that's road type stuff?
16:44<+glx>TrueBrain: DorpsGek is on strike again ;)
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16:48<SmatZ_> save -> safe (I couldn't find any wrong "safe" usage)
16:49<@peter1138>hg not updated :o
16:50<@Rubidium>so the postcommit hook is lagging or so?
16:50<@peter1138>Lagging just a bit, it's missing r14174 too...
16:50<+glx>no mail for r14174
16:51<+glx>(and it's not because its size)
16:54<Kloopy>Is there a revision log for trunk available on a webpage somewhere?
16:55<Kloopy>:D.. easy when you know where :P
16:55<Kloopy>Thank you
16:56<@Rubidium>will be more clear in the future
16:56<SmatZ_> I prefer this one, but it is down sometimes...
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17:02<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14176 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix: better 'safe' than ... 'save'
17:04<Eddi|zuHause><Celestar> blathijs: see above. I can include the utilization, but I can only change that RARELY (meaning a handful times per month) <- the only proper way i can see would be to factor in vehicle capacity, vehicle count, air distance, speed, timetable if defined... those are static values that only change on user interaction. spreading the passengers over different routes is a separate issue, that may also help
17:05<Eddi|zuHause><Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: made once a nice <- i did?
17:05<fjb>Cargo destinations can have really unexpected effects when applied to older games...
17:06<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: maybe it was just fun :-)
17:06<Ammler>you read quite far back...
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>i read back from when i went away :)
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>which was around 14:00
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>didn't the semantics of the nonstop setting change anyway?
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>to something like "orders are nonstop by default"
17:08<@Belugas>night all
17:08<+glx>night Belugas
17:08<SmatZ_>night Belugas
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>that i suggested an alternative text must be very long ago...
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really remember it
17:10<SmatZ_>[23:08:09] <Eddi|zuHause> to something like "orders are nonstop by default" <-- I fully agree the comment should change
17:10<SmatZ_>like "Use non-stop by default"
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17:17<TrueBrain>glx: how much revisions?
17:19<+glx>latest reported is r14172, no mail for 14174 and 2 for r14175
17:19<SmatZ_>TrueBrain: seems to be broken again, it shows "simple merge" for all revisions
17:19<TrueBrain>2 mails?
17:20<SmatZ_>as "diff"
17:20<TrueBrain>SmatZ_: how do you mean?
17:20<+glx>TrueBrain: in the maillist yes
17:20<@Rubidium>SmatZ_: the hg and git logs look ok to me
17:20<TrueBrain>I don't see anything wrong with git
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17:21<TrueBrain>glx: anything else?
17:22<SmatZ_>TrueBrain: like this
17:22<+glx>an r14176?
17:22<SmatZ_>but it seems to work now...
17:22<TrueBrain>SmatZ_: system was out of memory
17:23<TrueBrain>mail for 74 send too
17:23<+glx>received it
17:23<SmatZ_>ok :)
17:23<FauxFaux>If the person who owns that is around, enable the pretty pictures. :)
17:23<TrueBrain>FauxFaux: we own it, but define 'pretty'?
17:24<FauxFaux>I can't remember what ot's called and I can't find anyone who has it turned on (and I don't use git :p).
17:24*FauxFaux hunts.
17:25<FauxFaux> "graphiclog"
17:25<TrueBrain>waste of CPU time
17:26<TrueBrain>(remember that it is an import from SVN, and therefor one straight line)
17:26<FauxFaux>Does it not read svn 1.5's merge tracking data?
17:26<TrueBrain>FauxFaux: <- that is pretty
17:27<FauxFaux>I never liked her.
17:27<SmatZ_>TrueBrain: nice, make OTTD pages "pretty", too! :-)
17:28<@peter1138>Mental-note... TrueBrain posts non-girlfriend-safe pictures...
17:28<TrueBrain>sorry peter1138 :) I never did it before :)
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17:29<fjb>TrueBrain: Really pretty, but who is she?
17:30<TrueBrain>Never wathced Dark Angel?
17:30<TrueBrain>shame on you!
17:30<+glx>or Flipper (she was younger)
17:30<fjb>Hm, is she playing TTD?
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17:33<fjb>I have some cargo at a station going via anywhere that never gets loaded. Will that go away?
17:34<TrueBrain>With Jessica Alba? Doubtful
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17:35<fjb>I don't care for her. She is part of real life and real life means troble.
17:35<SmatZ_>Without Jessica Alba? Even more doubtful
17:35<TrueBrain>SmatZ_: agree'd :)
17:36<fjb>Switching to cargo destinations killed AdmiralAI. :-(
17:36<SmatZ_>hmm I thought OTTD supports cancelling cargo acceptance after several months/years ... but maybe it is a TTDP feature, and maybe it is only feature I have in mind...
17:37<Sacro>jessica alba?
17:37<SmatZ_>and frochs...
17:37<SmatZ_>what GUI would you like to manually cancel cargo acceptance? ctrl+click?
17:38<SmatZ_>and it should be compatible with the cargodest patch...
17:38<DaleStan>SmatZ_: I believe there is such an NFO feature. Callbacks 2B/3D?
17:42<SmatZ_>DaleStan: I think the problem is cargo appearing at a station because (very long time ago) a train loaded there...
17:42<SmatZ_>like goods appearing at drop station
17:42<SmatZ_>and player would like to stop cargo from appearing there because there is a goods pickup station somewhere else
17:43<@peter1138>Should happen automatically.
17:45<SmatZ_>peter1138: do you remember how long does it take?
17:45<@peter1138>I don't know that it does, only that it should.
17:45<SmatZ_>I think there is such a feature, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the code (it is possible I was search....
17:45<SmatZ_>aha ok :)
17:46<@peter1138>Hmm, patch now down to 50KB.
17:48<fjb>What happens with cargo for a special destination, when all scedules to that destination get cancelled?
17:51<SmatZ_>DaleStan: sorry, now I understand why you misundrestood me :) "cargo acceptance" = "cargo accepted by station to be loaded by vehicles" or so...
17:52*peter1138 .sleep(28800);
17:52<SmatZ_>@calc 28800 / 3600
17:52<@DorpsGek>SmatZ_: 8
17:53<Wolf01> :O remake of the scenario
17:53<Zuu>1. If VS studio debugger says a variable has value 8, does that correspond to the enum that has the value 0x08? Should do as 0x08 is hex and decimal 8 should be the same as 8 in hex right?
17:54<SmatZ_>0x08 (hex) == 8 (dec)
17:54<SmatZ_>you can use
17:54<Wolf01>the old one:
17:54<Zuu>2. does anyone know what VS_DEFPAL stands for?
17:54<Wolf01>cities and industries are different
17:55<Zuu>Its declared in src/vehicle_base.h :67
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17:57<Zuu>Just "defpal" don't make any sense to me, and I can't make it out from looking where it is used. :(
18:02<Zuu>Hmm, might not be that important after all.. vehstatus is only checked against VS_STOPED at the place I'm looking at.
18:05<Zuu>Thanks SmatZ
18:06<SmatZ_>on problem :)
18:09<@Rubidium>DEFPAL's used to tell whether to use a palette when drawing the vehicle
18:10<Zuu>Testing letting road vehicles taking over broken down vehicles. Works quite nice. Through I suspect it fails under some contidions related to when they move to a new tile. But so far it's been adding one line to an if-statement :)
18:10<@Rubidium>you could've found out by grepping and analysing the place (singular) where it is read
18:11<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14177 /trunk/src/network/core/os_abstraction.h: -Fix: define INADDR_NONE only when it hasn't been defined yet
18:11<Zuu>Rubidium: You mean where the variable vehstatus is read?
18:11<@Rubidium>no, where VS_DEFPAL is 'used'
18:12<Zuu>I looked for all places VA_DEFPAL is used, but its my very first time with VS in ages (read many years).
18:12<fjb>When building an airport, do all the towns around it care for its noise or only one town?
18:13<Zuu>Rubidium: But you're right, I should have checked the cpp file and not the h-files find in files returned.
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18:20<fjb>There is no place on the map where I could build an intercontinental airport. Even tiles owned by no town are to close to one of the smaller towns. There is one town that would accept an intercontinental airport, but every tile around that town is owned by another town...
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18:21<Eddi|zuHause>that's unfortunate :)
18:22<fjb>Yes, kind of...
18:22<fjb>Maybe an artificial island...
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18:25<Eddi|zuHause>i still think cities should be able to "consume" towns and turn them into suburbs
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>which have an increased growth of small houses, but very few big houses
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18:26<Yeggstry>hi there, has anyone had experience of "stuck" trams?
18:27<Zuu>Yes, but then I learned to build my tram networks properly.
18:27<SmatZ_>stuck? like because they are the end of line but can't turn around? of course :)
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>i have never ever had any of those
18:27<SmatZ_>just build a train track piece
18:27<Yeggstry>Zuu this is the first time I have built trams...
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>that'll be tricky when the vehicle is in the way, SmatZ_ ;)
18:28<Yeggstry>it got stuck at one of my end stations and is now speeding up as if to move then slowing down to nothing again
18:29<SmatZ_>Eddi|zuHause: I think the game tests if you can demolish the tile you need to build at... nothing more :)
18:30<SmatZ_>so it should be possible for trams to turn around when you can't build at the next tile
18:30<SmatZ_>but I may be really wrong
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>busses don't get stuck at such tiles either, why should trams?
18:31<SmatZ_>trams need half-track-bit to reverse
18:31<Zuu>Have I missed something (I checked TrueLights topic about new svn/git/hc URLs) or is down?
18:31<Zuu>or moved?
18:31<SmatZ_>they won't reverse by their own on a dead end
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18:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but really, why not change that?
18:31<@Rubidium>Zuu: it's in the progress of moving
18:32<@Rubidium>we're completely rewriting the compile farm at the moment
18:32<@Rubidium>and because we moved the webserver to another server the old compile farm doesn't update it anymore
18:32<@Rubidium>setting that back up takes a lot of effort when it's going to be removed "soon" anyway
18:32<Zuu>Sure, I don't blame you, you are doing a greate work with the movement of server and all that stuff. :)
18:32<SmatZ_>Eddi|zuHause: I don't remember, sorry :(
18:33<@Rubidium>but there will be a different page where you can get the list of tags
18:34<Yeggstry>ah I managed to fix the tram by putting a service depot on the other end of the station :)
18:34<@Rubidium>but as that page isn't up-to-date yet (and contains garbage information) we're not yet disclosing it's location; primarily because a lot of people will assuming it being truthful and such
18:34<Zuu>Nice. Then I just have too wait untill you anounce the completion of the rewrite project.
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>for exaple, it doesn't make sense that trams can't turn around in a tram stop. i hate that i have to put another tram halftile behind the tram stop
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>and newgrf_ports is not looking like it will solve that in the near future
18:46<+glx>newgrf_ports needs a rewrite ;)
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19:14*Celestar can't sleep :S
19:16*SpComb was having trouble tearing himself away from his vim as well
19:16<Celestar>what about Celestar->Complete(&cargodest.hg) ?
19:17<SpComb>(a memcached client using libevent)
19:22<Celestar>Rubidium: btw: you can forget cl.diff/cl2.diff. I'm restarting that from scratch
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19:41<Celestar>hm ..
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19:47<Celestar>nice one :P
19:47<+glx>are you sure it won't segfault?
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19:52<Celestar>glx: if it does, the mistake is somewhere else (=
19:53<Celestar>all of those things must exist
19:53<Celestar>cargo is a class, CargoLeft is a class
19:54<+glx>I remember there were segfault with cargo left
20:00<Celestar>I remember just rewriting it (=
20:01<Celestar>and it's in alpha state (=
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20:08<Zuu>Good night everybody!
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20:38<Yeggstry>can someone explain the transfer money to me? I mean, the vehicle gets a "transfer" credit, but does that money become part of the rest of the journey? So you get the transfer + rest of journey money at the end?
20:41<@Belugas>only when the journey ends with an order that is not a transfer
20:41<@Belugas>there's a wiki page on this :)
20:42<Yeggstry>I did see :P I just didn't see a lot of the money
20:43<Yeggstry>for instance, I had an oil tanker setup that dropped oil at docks 11k worth in transfer
20:43<Yeggstry>then had trucks transferring to a nearby oil refinery
20:43<Yeggstry>but the amount was no where near 11k when the trucks finished transferring
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20:54*TrueBrain hugs Belugas
20:55<@Belugas>kiss kiss kiss!
20:55<TrueBrain>ieuw :p
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 26 00:00:40 2008