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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-08-29

---Logopened Fri Aug 29 00:00:40 2008
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02:33<Forked>Good morning, sirs and ma'ams
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02:42<eQualizer>Is there a way to stop trains reverse if their way is blocked?
02:43<Noldo>no, but maybe you should make a patch for it
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02:53<eQualizer>Noldo: I don't know how to code. :(
02:53<eQualizer>If I knew, I would.
02:55<Forked>uhm, isn't there a pbs setting for it?
02:55<Pikka>255 is wait forever in TTDP, it isn't in OTTD? :)
02:56<Forked>I belive it is
02:56<DaleStan>Assuming you can get to 255. ISTR hearing that something related to that is clamped to 1..100.
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03:03<Noldo>255 works for the pbs only
03:04<Celestar>58 EUR train ticket for Munich-Bonn and back
03:04*Celestar goes booking
03:04-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
03:07<Eddi|zuHause>what could you possibly want in Bonn?
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03:11<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: Watching the Ballroom World Championship
03:12<Celestar>and for 58 EUR return it's worthwhile
03:12<Celestar>plus the train takes 4 hours from Munich to Bonn (Siegburg :P)
03:14<Celestar>which is clearly faster than by car (unless you drive at night)
03:15<Celestar>and frankly, I'm beginning to hate the stupid rotten germany highways
03:16<Celestar>hey roboboy
03:16<Forked>so I managed to get to work on time today.. but only because I got up 1,5 hours earlier (and played openttd with cargodest..)
03:16<Forked>I love bus stops with 1200 people waiting :\
03:17<Celestar>I'm writing a patch to reduce generation
03:17<Forked>I guess I'll level that part of the city somewhat to gain train access
03:18<Eddi|zuHause><Celestar> and frankly, I'm beginning to hate the stupid rotten germany highways <- strange, we only have brand new highways here... :p
03:18<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, like the A8, the A6 and the A3.
03:19<Forked>speaking of.. I keep running out of funds with dbxl :) might be because I use double engine sets and I'm replacing most trains
03:19<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm more thinking about the A9, A14 and A38 ;)
03:20<hylje>Eddi|zuHause: zing
03:21<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: around Munich / Upper Bavaria we have: A8 (pre-WW2-condition mostly), A9 (overloaded), A90 (mostly unfinished), A91 (never built), A92 (unfinished, overloaded), A93 (never finished, overloaded), A94 (only 40% finished), A95 (not finished), A96 (still not finished, at capacity), A98 (not built), A99 (unfinished)
03:21<Eddi|zuHause>not to speak about the A36, which they had no money for. instead they built that exact same road, and called it B6 ;)
03:23<Celestar>plus Munich has no connection whatsoever to the Germany High-Speed-Railway "network"
03:23<Celestar>we're TOTALLY out in the boonies.
03:23<Celestar>That's why we have one of the 30 busiest airports in the world.
03:28<SpComb>they should tunnel the high-speed rail network over the airport network then
03:29<Eddi|zuHause>on many routes, you are faster by train than by plane
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03:34<@peter1138>Hmm, any objection to me using m6 bits 2-5 for level crossing animation frame?
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03:40<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: not out of Munich
03:40<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: 6h to Berlin, 5:30h to Hamburg
03:40<Celestar>over 5h to Dusseldorf
03:41<Celestar>4:40 to Köln
03:41<Celestar>all this is faster by plane
03:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, the trains go like where? via Saalfeld, Erfurt, Leipzig, Berlin?
03:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's not exactly the fastest route known to man :p
03:42<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: Ingolstadt, Nuremburg, Lichtenfels, Jena ... two other backwater villages
03:42<Celestar>oh sorry 5h to Berlin meanwhile
03:42<Celestar>1h Munich-Nuremburg, 3h Nuremburg-Leipzig, 1h Leipzig-Berlin :P
03:43<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, via the Frankenwaldbahn, which is a very hilly and very curvy route...
03:44<Celestar>Germany misses 3-4 very critical High-Speed routes, plus the elimination of terminal stations in mid-country (Frankfurt and Leipzig come to my mind especially)
03:44<Celestar>(Stuttgart too but it seems that will be done)
03:44<Eddi|zuHause>they are building the city tunnel in leipzig
03:44<Celestar>will the station be a through-station then?
03:45<Eddi|zuHause>connecting the bavarian station (south) with the main station (north)
03:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how many problems that will solve...
03:45<Eddi|zuHause>because there is not much towards south :p
03:46<Celestar>terminal stations costs a shitload of time and money, even with MUs
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03:46<Eddi|zuHause>towards south is the route via Reichenbach, Plauen, Nürnberg
03:46<Celestar>plus Munich-Hamburg is only bi-hourly :S
03:47<Celestar>so are MOST routes :S
03:47<Celestar>stupid that is
03:47<Eddi|zuHause>ideally, they would need to route the trains to Dresden via the southern exit, but i don't know how they could manage that
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>most "through" trains in leipzig come from north and go to dresden
03:48<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: tear down Leipzig terminal and build a 6-8 platform station underneath.
03:48<Celestar>like they do in Stutgart
03:48<Celestar>and should be doing in Frankfurt
03:49<Celestar>Leipzig doesn't have that much traffic. 6 platforms should be plenty
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>like they did in Berlin, 8 platforms in the (N-S) tunnel, and 6 platforms on the (W-E) bridge
03:50<Celestar>but way too much for the little traffic that Berlin HBF gets :P
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>only they had no "Main Station" to tear down in the first place ;)
03:52<Celestar>heh Leipzig HBF is the largest terminal station in Europe (measured by area), but has only 85000 passengers per day
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>the main problem with the Leipzig-Reichenbach-Plauen-Nürnberg route is: it is not electrified!
03:53<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: the City-Tunnel-Leipzig will (apparently) NOT be used by long distance trains
03:53<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, like i said... there is no useful connection in the south...
03:54<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: well, the new highspeed-track to Erfurt/Nuremburg ?
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>that's using the northern entrance
03:54<Celestar>which is stupid
03:54<Celestar>since Nuremburg is kind of south of Leipzig, innit?
03:55<Eddi|zuHause>it's passing south of Halle, then joining the main track near Gröbers, and routing through the existing track via Airport, Leipzig Messe, i think
03:55<Celestar>:S Munich should be given "The world's ugliest station" award
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03:56<Celestar>which is stupid.
03:56<Celestar>er sorry :P
03:56<Eddi|zuHause>since the beginning of time, the long distance trains went from Leipzig via Thüringen (Jena, Saalfeld) to Nürnberg (the route they electrified during WWII)
03:57<Celestar>hm .. Germany's busiest station is?
03:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know...
03:57<Celestar>Hamburg :o
03:57<Celestar>450000 passengers per day
03:58<Celestar>second place is Frankfurt and Munich with 350000 per day
03:59<Celestar>Dresden has 50000 (=
03:59<Celestar>Leipzig 85000
03:59<Celestar>I think that all includes S-Bahn
03:59<Celestar>yeah it does
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04:02<Eddi|zuHause>"Zwischenzeitlich war geplant, einzelne Züge des Fernverkehrs durch den Tunnel verkehren zu lassen - diese Pläne wurden mangels geeigneter Ziele in Südsachsen [...] wieder fallen gelassen." <- that's exactly what i said ;)
04:03<Celestar>I quite agree
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04:05<Celestar>apparently the Spanish dropped their plans of using the ICE3 at speeds up to 350km/h and limit them to 300km/h for the time being
04:06<Celestar>so trip time from Madrid to Barcelona (650km) is 'stuck' at 2:41
04:07*peter1138 restrains himself from pedanting a customer who wrote 'should of' in an email...
04:07<Celestar>apparently moving the 350km/h would get that down to 2:25 while increasing total energy consumption by 30% :P
04:07<Celestar>peter1138: should what? :P
04:08<Celestar>but 2:25 for 650km is pretty coolish
04:09<@peter1138>Hmm, actually, how many animation frames does one need for a level crossing?
04:10<Eddi|zuHause>smooth opening and closing of crossing bars ;)
04:11<@peter1138>Yes, but how many?
04:11*peter1138 wonders how many bits diagonal crossings needed...
04:12<Celestar>peter1138: depends on the resolution we're planning on the long run.
04:12<Celestar>peter1138: I'd guess 8 (=
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04:13<@peter1138>There are 6 bits free, 4 of them consecutive.
04:14<Eddi|zuHause>you really expect the need for more than 4 bits?
04:14<Celestar>how many bits for diagonal crossings?
04:15<@peter1138>That's the question :)
04:15*Celestar wonders whether we should split tiles into logical units.
04:15<DaleStan>2 for roads and 6 for rails?
04:15<DaleStan>(That's bits, not units.)
04:16<Celestar>std::vector<std::list<Tile *> > _map;
04:16<Celestar>how about this?
04:16<Celestar>turn tile into an ABC and use polymorphis for the procs.
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>the main argument against that was always that the map array should be allocated contingously, for caching effects and speed
04:17<Celestar>or just std::vector<Tile *> _map if we want to go simple.
04:17<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: then use std::vector<Tile> _map. works as well.
04:18<DaleStan>Except for the polymorphism part.
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>for polymorphism you'd need vector<Tile*>, and then you don't have the allocation in one place...
04:19<Celestar>well, you can have std::vector<Tile *> _map to have the stuff consecutively.
04:19<Celestar>and I don't think we'd lose any speed
04:19<@peter1138>I think you're wrong.
04:20<DaleStan>Nope. The pointers will be consecutive, but there's no guarantee that the pointed-to data will be consecutive.
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04:20<Celestar>DaleStan: if you allocate it correctly, you can make that sure
04:20<@peter1138>At least 2 extra dereferences for each access.
04:20<Celestar>_map[blah] = new (position) Tile;
04:20<Celestar>peter1138: the question is: how much do they cost us?
04:20<Celestar>peter1138: or do they cost us anything at all?
04:21<@peter1138>Clearly they are no free.
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>bah... i can't get anything done :(
04:21<Celestar>peter1138: If the prefetcher is clever enough you might get that for free
04:22<DaleStan>Indeed. Not free. How expensive depends on how well they can be optimized out (probably not at all) and whether or not they end up in cache when you want them. But even reading "memory" from the cache is not free.
04:22<Celestar>DaleStan: we'd have to do a callgrind to really find out.
04:23<@peter1138>Anyway, I don't think diagonal crossings need 6 bits for rail.
04:23<@peter1138>I believe just 2 more bits would suffice.
04:23<Celestar>DaleStan: then again, the polymorphic pointers could be really faster than the proc-array we have now.
04:24<DaleStan>There are six possible rail pieces, unless you plan to forbid junctions.
04:24<@peter1138>We already know the axis, so with that there are only 4 possible track combinations, which conveniently is those 2 free bits.
04:24<@peter1138>Yes, I don't think junctions are necessary.
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>road junctions are...
04:25<Celestar>on railway crossings?!
04:25<@peter1138>On level crossings?
04:25<Celestar>I wanna see that.
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>how often have i felt the need on a diagonal crossing to place 3 road bits
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04:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, the 3rd side LOOKS free to attach another road, but it doesn't allow this
04:26<@peter1138>Great. We 18 bits for that.
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>(thinking back to the MiniIN)
04:27<Celestar>straight road, straight track
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>the main problem of the old diagonal crossing patch was opening and closing of adjacent crossing tiles
04:27<Celestar>rather use the bits for proper reservation (also for RVs)
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04:30<reldred|work>How about using PBS to force opening/closing of all the crossings in the signal block? Detect a crossing within a signal block, then force the entry signals heading towards the crossing to all be advanced one-way signals.
04:30-!-reldred|work is now known as reldred
04:30<DaleStan><Celestar> then again, the polymorphic pointers could be really faster than the proc-array we have now.< --I believe most compilers implement virtual functions using tables of function pointers. Either obj.vtable[index](args) or (*(obj.pvtable))[index](args). I'm not familiar with the current system, though, so I can't really compare.
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04:33<Celestar>DaleStan: we do something similar
04:34<Maedhros>morning everyone
04:34<Celestar>DaleStan: array of array of function pointers
04:35<Celestar>that is clearly not faster than the table of function pointers (=
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really worry about the function access, i worry about the data storage
04:36<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: seeing the profile data, that doesn't really matter
04:36<Ammler>good morning :-)
04:36<Celestar>at least not in the single-digit percentages
04:36<Celestar>hey Ammler
04:36*Ammler is looking for NARS2
04:37<Ammler>how long has today left in australia? :-)
04:37<@peter1138>Celestar, so are you suggesting a new-new map array?
04:37<Pikka>it's 6:37pm, Ammler :P
04:37<Celestar>peter1138: nah. I'll just give turning the Tile Types in classes a shot at one point
04:38<@peter1138>Won't that require a new storage system?
04:38<@peter1138>Or something :o
04:38<@peter1138>What about all our static inlines for map access?
04:39<Ammler>Pikka: you bastard knows how to make it exciting... :-P
04:39<Celestar>peter1138: they would still be inlines (=
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>,%2025.%20Nov%201920.png <- let's take this diagonal crossing, i would have wanted to extend the straight crossing and do the road curve 1 tile closer to the rail (on the crossing tile)
04:39<Pikka>Ammler: I'm waiting for Dan to come online and give me the last sprites I need. :)
04:40<Celestar>peter1138: I just wanna know whether an std::vector of tile pointers has a noticable impact on performance (=
04:41<@peter1138>There is no reason to use a std::vector
04:41<@peter1138>The map size does not change in game.
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>so the diagonal crossing should allow up to 3 road bits simultaneously, of one only one is actually crossed by rail
04:42<@peter1138>1 bit for across it, 1 bit for junction.
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: what might be more useful would be to split the map in 16x16 segments. and then dynamically allocate additional 16x16 segments for under/above ground tiles
04:43<@peter1138>Then you need to factor in tram and hway...
04:43<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but that needs something else than what we have currently
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: finish cargodest first :p
04:44<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, that doesn't look like PBS :(
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>those are old (MiniIN) PBS
04:44<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: will do
04:44<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: then multistop
04:44<@peter1138>Oh yes, the visibly obvious 1 pixel yellow
04:45<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: then trying to work on the map array
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>that yellow light is total rubbish...
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>i don't want to overuse the r-word, but it has nothing to do with it :p
04:46<Celestar>what yellow light?
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>the yellow pixel on the signals that are called PBS signals
04:47<Celestar>they should be yellow when the next signal is red (=
04:47<Celestar>like Ks
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>there are no semaphore Ks ;)
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>i have "working" advance signals, but combo signals are giving me headaches...
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i see 6 sensible combinations for 1 diagonal trackbit and up to 3 road bits
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>suppose the rail bit is in the lower corner, then there is 1) straight road in X axis 2) curve from lower X axis to upper Y axis 3) T-crossing from lower X axis to both upper tiles, 4-6 the mirrored pieces for lower Y axis
04:52<DaleStan>Traditionally, junctions have been forbidden on half-tile roads, which is why I suggested two road bits. X and Y
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>then that *4 for the other single-diagonal rail bits
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>then there are 2*2 states for double diagonal rails
04:54<DaleStan>But after I think about it some more, that doesn't make much sense.
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>meaning 4*6+2*2=28 states for diagonal crossings, so 5 bits, plus one for separating a diagonal crossing from a traditional crossing
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>and additionall headaches for tram
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>the 28 states above leave enough room to fit the traditional crossings in
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>so 5 bits should be enough
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>to specify the layout
04:58<Celestar>when is the commuter airport released?
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>i have never used those...
04:59<Celestar>the stupid city airport is hardly better than the small one :S
05:04<Ammler>Celestar: isn't the commuter only for small planes, too.
05:06<Celestar>not afaik
05:07<@peter1138>5 bits? That leaves nothing for animation :(
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05:09<@peter1138>Hmm, we could make a level crossing pool :p
05:09<@peter1138>Limited to 65535 crossings might be silly, hehe
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>commuter is a "small" airport
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05:13<Celestar>peter1138: std::vector (=
05:14<Celestar>better std::map<TileIndex, LevelCrossing> ?
05:14<Celestar>faster in finding the crossing (=
05:14<Celestar>log(n) vs (n)
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05:15<Celestar>peter1138: if you have a pool, how do you find the correct crossing?
05:16<@peter1138>index on tile
05:16<@peter1138>(And I'm not really suggesting it)
05:16<@peter1138>m2 is traditionally an object index.
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>that makes only sense when objects can span multiple tiles
05:17<@peter1138>Or if there is off-map storage.
05:17<@peter1138>Waypoints have an index.
05:17<@peter1138>Gah, stupid fucking plaster won't stick :(
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>a map (instead of a pool) is not the worst idea for some off-map storage
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm... "map" is overloaded :p
05:20<@peter1138>Well if you had variable size tiles, then a waypoint would fit in the map.
05:20<@peter1138>Hmm, saving this new map array might be tricky, I don't know though.
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>when you know what you allocated, you can also save it
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05:23<@peter1138>And then you get to the issue of elevation
05:27<Forked>Celestar: I saw one strange thing yesterday, cargodest.. suddenly a station claimed it found no route to a station .. I had a route to. Saving and reloading that same save fixed it. I have not been able to reproduce it :\
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05:32<Celestar>I'm off
05:32<Celestar>Forked: weird
05:33<Forked>only thing I can recall doing is deleting a bit of a station - that caused it to be physically seperated from the bus stations it's attached to
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05:34<Eddi|zuHause>that shouldn't change the route network
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>i once had issues like that with autoreplace
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>and once with changing a go via order to a go to order
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>where i don't know if the latter is fixed
05:36<Forked>so how does a station see if there is a route, by checking where the trains go?
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>from the order list
05:38<@peter1138>BUG: soft lockup - CPU#2 stuck for 11s! [openttd:10726]
05:39<Celestar>Forked: I see.
05:39<Celestar>that maybe the reason for the one single desync we've seen the past days on nettesting
05:39<Celestar>Forked: do you have any autosaves from before and after?
05:41<Forked>Unsure really, I can't remember the time it happend .. so the normal save from right after is there, but not sure which one it is. :\
05:41<Maedhros> --enable-osx-g5 enables optimalizations for G5 (OSX ONLY)
05:41<Maedhros>yay, Bjarni :o
05:42<Forked>I'll check though, might find it
05:43<@peter1138>What the fuck are optimalizations?
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05:45<Celestar>why needs every of bjarni's patches triple-checking?
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05:45<Forked>note to self: 29th jul 1943
05:46<Forked>celestar: no autosaves, played too much after it
05:46<Gekz>peter1138: they're optimal optimizations
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05:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14183 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: "optimalization" is not a word
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05:46<Forked>and like I said.. a reload (didn't quit the game, just save+load) fixed it. This was af0fc4
05:47<Celestar>Forked: mp
05:47<Celestar>Forked: np
05:47<@peter1138>af0fc4 is odl
05:47<Celestar>I'm off
05:47<Forked>I found the savegame I think I saved right after I saw it though, but might not be of any use?
05:48<Celestar>Forked: nope :(
05:48<Forked>peter1138: af0fc47 :) the one I found on (I belive it was.. or rather.. someone pointed me to)
05:48<Celestar>use a newer version
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05:48<@peter1138>You want e79bdd28d8bb
05:48<Forked> :)
05:48<Forked>aw, only see he79bdd28 and the one I have
05:49<Forked>will look at it later, I'm suppose to be working now. Thanks :)
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05:49<@Rubidium>the h says that it's a mercurial (hg) revision number
05:50<Forked>I see it now, need more coffee
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05:53<Brianetta>You lot should be grateful that you can't catch my headache over the internet.
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05:55<@peter1138>This timetable patch has so many options and buttons. It's confusing :(
05:56<@peter1138>I'm simple, me...
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06:09<Brianetta>Timetables (-:
06:09-!-fjb [] has joined #openttd
06:10<Brianetta>The 15:47 from Funfingford
06:10*Brianetta hands fjb the Keningham timetable
06:11<fjb>Thank you. But please not that station names as long as I'm tired.
06:11<fjb>How is the patch working?
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06:20<Brianetta>Don't know yet
06:20<Brianetta>but I do have a pounding headache
06:20<Brianetta>so it's probably working better than I am
06:21<fjb>Getting to few sleep because of all the new features in OpenTTD?
06:21*TrueBrain gives Brianetta something for his headache
06:21<shodan>i just put 8gb RAM into my machine
06:21<shodan>my openttd is going to flyyyyyy
06:21<TrueBrain>I hope you have a 64bit system
06:22<Gekz>shodan: what makes you think that
06:22<TrueBrain>LOL! You loaded so much newgrfs you need 8 GB? Cool :)
06:22<Gekz>I could get 8GB of 100MHz SDRAM and it would still run slower than 128MB of 800MHz RAM
06:22<Gekz>TrueBrain: so many*
06:22<TrueBrain>Gekz: hehe
06:23<Gekz>TrueBrain: native english speaker?
06:23<TrueBrain>who? where?
06:23<Ammler>why and not ;-)
06:24<Gekz>TrueBrain: do you speak english natively
06:24<TrueBrain>why Ammler and not CrazyPerson?
06:26<TrueBrain>Gekz: no
06:26<Ammler>will those cargodest binaries made automatically
06:26<Gekz>TrueBrain: what is your native language?
06:26<Ammler>we should really change our server to hg repo...
06:26<TrueBrain>Ammler: not for now; hg repos are hard to produce automaticly
06:27<Ammler>oh, why is that?
06:27<TrueBrain>really is easier ;)
06:27<TrueBrain>you can't check the revision of a remote hg
06:27<Ammler>(as we have also update scripts...)
06:28<TrueBrain>so there is no way to detect if ther eis a new commit, besides downloading the complete hg (which takes for ever)
06:28<TrueBrain>well, at least: I didn't found a way yet ;)
06:29<Ammler>can you have svn and hg repo in same folder?
06:29<Ammler>so you can switch between...
06:29<TrueBrain>how would that help?
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06:30-!-Pikka is now known as Pikka|afk
06:31<Ammler>just thinking how we should manage the server(s)
06:31<Ammler>now we have different checkouts for each server and copy the ./bundle/ ot the gamedir with autopilot
06:31<TrueBrain>that is simple, hg checkout
06:31<TrueBrain>run hg pull; hg update
06:31<TrueBrain>when ever you want to update
06:32<TrueBrain>(you can even update to a given revision)
06:32<Ammler>why is the hg rev on the titlescreen shorter then on the web?
06:33<TrueBrain>both 8 chars, not?
06:34<Ammler>TrueBrain: current cargodest rev: e79bdd28d8bb
06:34<TrueBrain>oh, that 'web'
06:34<TrueBrain>I thought serverlist ;)
06:34<@peter1138>The hg revision detection only uses 8 characters.
06:35<@peter1138>Woo, my bank balance is positive again :p
06:35<TrueBrain>but yes, in OpenTTD all revisions are cut to 8 chars (git, hg)
06:36<Ammler>and svn
06:36<TrueBrain>Ammler: well, by the time svn gets 8 chars big ... :p
06:37<@peter1138>We've not got up to r100000000 yet...
06:37<@Rubidium>by then the first of the 9 characters is insignificant anyway
06:37<@peter1138>What Would OpenTTD's God Do?
06:38<@Rubidium>be amazed that it has that many commits
06:38<Noldo>Chuck Norris?
06:40<TrueBrain>Ammler: we talked about revision, not about postfix ;)
06:41<Ammler>quite important for svn
06:41<TrueBrain>nothing to do with svn
06:41<@Rubidium>if we want long version numbers we should adopt TeX's version numbering system ;)
06:41<Ammler>TrueBrain: your reason, why we shuld hg instead of hg
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06:41<Ammler>why we should use hg instead of svn
06:42<TrueBrain>much better ;)
06:45<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> if we want long version numbers we should adopt TeX's version numbering system ;) <- 3.141592...?
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>"This is pdfTeX, Version 3.141592-1.40.3 (Web2C 7.5.6)"
06:46<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: he didn't say pi's version, not?
06:46<TrueBrain>as I love pie
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06:47<TrueBrain>cool :)
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06:48<TrueBrain>btw, Ammler, you were right, you need to modify to get the postfix (or use --revision on configure :p)
06:51<Ammler>TrueBrain: is better, as BOTTD user can't use the --revision argument
06:52<TrueBrain>well, when it comes from SVN, it should happen automaticly
06:52<TrueBrain>and I guess when you use 'hg branch', it should work too
06:52<TrueBrain>but a pull can kind of ruin that ;)
06:57<TrueBrain>gone for the day, have fun all :)
07:05<@peter1138>hg branch does not work on my version of hg :(
07:08*roboboy decides to uninstall all versions of openttd from his computer and start from scratch
07:12<Ammler>changing newgrfs on a running game is not recommend, I know...
07:13<Ammler>but I found a strange thing, if you remove a unused set which is loaded before a used one, the used one will change the IDs
07:13<Ammler>(with "pool" on)
07:14<Ammler>is that worth of a bug report? peter1138?
07:14<roboboy>has anyone released a win32 binary of cargodest? and if so is there a link. I can not seem to find a link in the thread
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07:16<roboboy>what versiion would you recomend I have installed before I unpack cargodest?
07:17<roboboy>0.6.2 or will any 0.6.* version work?
07:17<Forked>you don't need any other version installed :)
07:17<Forked>you just need the usual files
07:18<roboboy>just checking
07:20<@peter1138>Ammler, no.
07:20<Ammler>roboboy: read the part about directories in the readme
07:21<fjb>My planes are steeling all my express train passengers. :-(
07:21<Ammler>that will make your life with multiple OpenTTD revs easier :-)
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07:27<@peter1138>Brianetta, you can't argue with the tile-every-other-signal brigade.
07:27<@peter1138>Brianetta, you can't argue with the signal-every-other-tile brigade.
07:29<Brianetta>Tile every other signal... that's dense signalling
07:30<Brianetta>I like long signal blocks. Ideally, 16 tiles or so. Unfortunately, I often don't make routes long enough.
07:30<Brianetta>I shoul dbe more expressive.
07:30<@peter1138>Well, I like low town density so there is more space :)
07:31<@peter1138>I might even consider something larger than 512x256... ;)
07:32<Brianetta>My server uses 1024x256
07:32<Brianetta>It's supposed to encourage long lines
07:32<@peter1138>Yeah, but it's 0.6.2 :(
07:32<Brianetta>only Izel takes comlete advantage
07:32<Brianetta>It's 0.6.2, but frankly that's hardly stable
07:33<@peter1138>But Izel does the signal-every-other-tile thing :o
07:33<Brianetta>No he doesn't
07:33<Brianetta>He signals *every* tile
07:33<Brianetta>His lines look furry
07:33<@peter1138>Hmm, I think it wasn't in the current game.
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07:34<Brianetta>He starts off with no signals
07:35<Brianetta>When a section of double-track gets its second train, he signals them up to the chin
07:40<@peter1138>Have you seen any desyncs yet?
07:41<Brianetta>Not yet
07:41<Brianetta>Next game I'm adding Freight Stations Renewal
07:41<Brianetta>or whatever it's called
07:41<Brianetta>then after than, I'm adding egrvts
07:42<Brianetta>I suspect egrvts will be the culprit
07:42<Brianetta>not egrvts
07:42-!-Pikka|afk is now known as Pikka
07:42<Brianetta>no e for 0.6.2
07:42<Brianetta>If grvts gets to be a problem, I'll remove it for generic trams
07:43<Brianetta>If it's not, I'll add Pikka's av8 back in
07:43<Brianetta>and then Blunck's passenger stations
07:43<Brianetta>and then the UKRS addon
07:44<Brianetta>Once all that's in, Pikka's industries go in
07:45<Brianetta>and we'll see ow that fares
07:45<Gekz_>'ow eet fares
07:51<fjb>Belugas is sleeping right now, isn't he? So I may point out that a signal at every other tile is totally unrealistic. :-)
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07:59<Brianetta>I don't understand why Belugas is so anti-realism.
08:00<Brianetta>I wonder if he plays Toyland...
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08:00<@Rubidium>Brianetta: he isn't anti-realism, he's anti-"this feature must be implemented at all cost because of realism"
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08:01<Brianetta>He doesn't come across that way (:
08:01<@peter1138>Rubidium beat me to it :o
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08:03<Brianetta>If you double-head an electric with a diesel, and run it on unelectrified track, does the electric loco have running costs?
08:03<@Rubidium>he sometimes has little trouble expressing him in a detailed manner
08:03<Brianetta>So there's absolutely no benefit to just electrifyin gan uphill slope, and having an electric only kick in then?
08:04<Brianetta>Well, I suppose it's cheaper to build
08:04<@peter1138>Not really. NewGRF can control the running cost.
08:05<@peter1138>I don't know of any that do yet, but NARS2 might.
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08:06<Brianetta>In real life, can any diesels use their power plant to power a coupled electric loco?
08:07<Brianetta>I know EMUs have a power bus
08:07<reldred>Belugas: Can you let me know when you have a build of OpenTTD with your newobjects feature ready for testing? I'm about to start getting sprites off of SAC and code them to the proposed newobjects standard, I can give both lakie and your implementations a thorough thrashing once I've got some code to play with.
08:14<Ammler>fjb: how far is the gap between signals in RL?
08:14<Ammler>then you know the scale is somehow strange in ttd, so one tile is about 1km for signals gaps :P
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08:16<fjb>Some km, the maximum breaking distance is 1km, when I'm not totally wrong.
08:17<@Rubidium>but a tile is 429 miles across
08:17<Pikka><Brianetta> In real life, can any diesels use their power plant to power a coupled electric loco? <- does a slug count as a "coupled electric loco"?
08:18<fjb>Brianetta: The diesel lokomotives need their power plant for their own power.
08:19<fjb>We need a "push the next train up that hill and then return here to wait for the next train train" order.
08:19<extspotter>Thats just banking
08:20<extspotter>no couplin
08:20<extspotter>so both locos would be powering themselves anyway
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08:21<Ammler>looks interesting:
08:21<Ammler>real timetable :-)
08:21<@peter1138>It's not real, it's just better.
08:22<Ammler>is it better?
08:22<@peter1138>It is. I've used it.
08:22<@peter1138>It's more complicated though.
08:22<@peter1138>(Which is its biggest problem)
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08:23<Ammler>like cond orders, which are also nice.
08:23<Ammler>presentation looks nice too...
08:24<@peter1138>My big problem so far is that when setting up the new schedule on a 4 hour route some of vehicles seem to start as 3 hours late, instead of 1 hour early
08:25<@peter1138>So instead of waiting to start, they trundle along being late all the time
08:25<@peter1138>But... it works better generally.
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08:31<Ammler>why do linux user never provide linux builds?
08:33<Brianetta>Ammler: Linux nearly always comes with a compiler. They don't feel that providing a build is necessary.
08:33<Brianetta>Personally, I'll only install packages, or software I've compiled myself.
08:34<Ammler>OTTD is almost the only thing I compiled myself...
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08:35<fjb>Why is nobody providing FreeBSD binaries by default?
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08:37<Ammler>downloading a 2.7M takes about 10 secs, selfcompiling needs about 10mins
08:38<fjb>It has many advantages over Linux, e.g. it can bring up an network interface without an ip number.
08:39<Brianetta>fjb: So can Linux.
08:39<Brianetta>ifconfig eth1 up
08:39<fjb>Yeah, but do that automatically at startup.
08:40<SpComb>ip link set eth1 up
08:40<Brianetta>echo ifconfig eth1 up >> /etc/rc.local
08:40<SpComb>what are you using it for? Bridged networking/firewalling?
08:41<SpComb>I'm sure it's possible to set up a bridged firewall with linux, even such that it starts up at bootup
08:41<Brianetta>The Linux kernel is every bit as capable as the BSD kernel, and all the startup scripts work the same way.
08:41<fjb>And /etc/rc.local is prone to errors when you are changing something at the setup. There is no way to bring a network interface up without an ip number in the usual network configuration.
08:42<Brianetta>fjb: Define usual.
08:42<fjb>The place where you are configuring all the other network interfaces.
08:42<Brianetta>Every major distribution has a different script for setting up the network.
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08:42<Brianetta>I'm conversant with all of them, and I'd just add the necessary commands to the scripts they call.
08:43<SpComb>debian's /etc/network/interfaces supports "iface eth1 inet manual" and then some "up ip link set eth1 on"
08:44<Brianetta>it does
08:44<fjb>And it is hard to tell which network card is which interface. And there are cases when Linux tends to not always give the same number to the same interface on each startup.
08:44<Brianetta>/etc/sysconfig/networking in Fedora lets you add arbitrary config, too
08:44<Brianetta>Those cases usually involve hit-pluggable interfaces.
08:45<Brianetta>er, hoot-pluggable
08:45<Brianetta>ones you can unplug
08:45*SpComb unplugs Brianetta's PCI ethernet NIC
08:45<Brianetta>Don't pop my motherboard
08:45<fjb>Yes, that kind of interfaces, but it tends to give them different numbers even if they get never unplugged.
08:46<Brianetta>If they're USB, for example, and other USB devices get added and removed, the USB system gets ennumerated differently.
08:46<SpComb>I encoutered that with xen + ubuntu, it had two vif's that were, for some reason, named as eth2 and eth1 (in that order)
08:46<SpComb>but they worked correctly as eth0 and eth1 on the debian vms
08:46<fjb>Even without adding other devices that tends to happen.
08:46<SpComb>took a bit of debugging to figure out that the two interfaces were the wrong way around
08:46-!-Sacro [Ben@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
08:47<Brianetta>fjb: For a firewall, I'd recommend not using interfaces that might initialise in arbitrary order, then
08:47<Brianetta>Either that, or write your config manually
08:47<SpComb>FreeBSD has it's pluses, but not being able to configure address-less interfaces in linux is *not* one of them
08:48<fjb>Configuring address-less interfaces on Linux involves a lot of custom things prone to errors or being forgotten when changing the network configuration.
08:49-!-FauxFaux_ is now known as FauxFaux
08:49<SpComb>perhaps your issue is comparing freebsd against linux as a whole, and not considering that there are different distros
08:49<SpComb>configuring address-less interfaces on *BSD is probably kind of error-prone and custom-things as well
08:50<fjb>I tried Suse and Ubuntu. Didn't want to spend my time on trying the same thing on all that distributions out there to find the one that behaves different.
08:51<SpComb>I was looking at OpenBSD's pf (or at least its man pages) last week, it looked pretty neat
08:51<fjb>No, it is configured as all the other interfaces, you only neave the address blank.
08:51<fjb>pf is really neat. FreeBSD has pf too.
08:51<SpComb>presumeably better than what iptables has to offer
08:52<fjb>iptables has nice features but is very hard to configure.
08:52<SpComb>iproute does the n-addresses-per-interface thing quite well, you have separate `ip addr` and `ip link` subcommands
08:52<SpComb>I've stopped using ifconfig and route alltogether
08:53<SpComb>they could be deprecated for all I care
08:53<fjb>More than one address per interface should be no problem for any Unix like systen out there.
08:53<SpComb>yes, although with ifconfig they're silly things like eth0:2
08:54<Brianetta>SpComb: route would be deprecated except that it's a POSIX command
08:54<@peter1138>Ammler, 10 minutes? :o
08:54<Ammler>a guess, maybe more :-)
08:54<fjb>That is only the case with Linux. ifconfig on other systems doesn't assign that silly names.
08:55<Brianetta>I use ip for all permanent stuff, but ifconfig and route for dynamic stuff, since it usually involves less typing
08:55<Maedhros>Ammler: try 2, and this computer is nearly 5 years old :p
08:55<SpComb>`ip -6 ad sh dev eth0` is pretty concise
08:55<Brianetta>concise, but not as easy to type.
08:56<@peter1138>Just took me 38 seconds including a make clean...
08:56<Ammler>well, I take the time :-)
08:56<Brianetta>Easier to select and paste (:
08:57<fjb>So what is "ip -6 ad sh dev eth0" exactly doing? I'm not having a Linux manpage here at the moment. And my last try with Linux was a year ago.
08:57<SpComb>shows the IPv6 addresses on the eth0 device
08:57<Brianetta>It's bringing up an IPV6 interface.
08:57<Brianetta>or showing (:
08:58<Ammler>plain checkout needs a min :P
08:59<Brianetta>ip -6 address show dev eth0
08:59<Brianetta>^ equivalent
08:59<Brianetta>but without the lazy
08:59<SpComb>or event ip -family inet6 address show dev eth0
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09:00*SpComb dissapears
09:00<Brianetta>See, Tekky?
09:00<@peter1138>It's addr, as listed in the command help, heh...
09:00<Brianetta>You made him vanish
09:01<Tekky>Who dared make me vanish?
09:01<Brianetta>peter1138: It was originally address. Depending on how it was compiled, either work.
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09:01*Brianetta ties lobster's beard to Tekky
09:01<fjb>ifconfig sis0 inet6
09:01<fjb>Hm, shorter. :-)
09:02<Ammler>done, 5 mins and another 70 megs on my hd :-)
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09:08<fjb>Don't read the german forum. They are discussing how to calculate the number of stars that get displayd next to the user name.
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09:17<fjb>Is briging really dependend of the town size? I never saw anything like that.
09:20<Ammler>fjb: pls vote too
09:20<Ammler>I am wondering if they will do it ;-)
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09:21<fjb>No, why should I vote? And what should I vote for? 23 stars wouls be cool.
09:24<fjb>"McDonald Douglas MD-8x Package" :-)
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09:33<fjb>I should really vote. I would vote for vour levels. Then they can start discussing if the new level should have 2 or 4 stars.
09:34<fjb>Oh, they deleted my account.
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09:35<fjb>I will not create a new account there just to vote, at least not if the vote for 4 levels has no chance to win.
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09:37<Ammler>NARS2: 3.7MB :-o
09:37<Pikka>lots of sound effects :O
09:38<fjb>Oh, did NARS2 get released?
09:38<Pikka>mind you, just the NFO is a meg and a half :P
09:38<davis-->someone got a link?
09:38<fjb>Ah, I found it.
09:39<Ammler>and don't forget to read the pages
09:39<Ammler>specially about parameters...
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09:48<fjb>Is NARS2 compartible to industry sets?
09:49<Pikka>should be
09:49<Pikka>if it isn't, I blame the industry set ;)
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09:59<sjabby>anywhere i can read about the new signals the advanced onws?
10:02<Celestar>peter1138: ?
10:07<Ammler>set looks awesome, looking forward to play with it...
10:09<fjb>Now we need some 19th century building sets. :-)
10:09<Pikka>yes... yes we do. :O
10:09*Pikka is off to bed.. night all
10:09<fjb>Night Pikka
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10:10<Ammler>night Pikka and thanks :-)
10:12<Ammler>I guess, found a small glitch
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10:19<Ammler>the livery override for pass wagons seems not to work proper...
10:22<@peter1138>Ammler, properly.
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10:23<@peter1138>I wonder how different is it from the beta I tested a while ago.
10:23<Ammler>it refits to newly engines, but not back, it seems.
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10:37<fjb>I need a "reverse orders list" button.
10:37<extspotter>ike on simutrans?
10:38<Celestar>peter1138: users request something like CTRL+click on a station in the station view window to move to a station. Can we move the view mode toggling to single click or to a separate button?
10:38<Celestar>extspotter: yes?
10:38<extspotter>I need a lufthansa ATR
10:39<extspotter>I need to make
10:41<fjb>I don't know simultrans. I want to clone the orders of a tram line and setupt a new line going the reverse direction.
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10:43<fjb>Trams are like girls. They go to the depot all at the same time. :-(
10:43<extspotter>are you setting up like a to b and then b to a
10:44<extspotter>because then you could just do a to b to a
10:46<fjb>Im setting up a to b to c to to e backto a.
10:46<extspotter>then just do e - d -c - b - a - e
10:48<@Belugas>Response from Belugas concerning anti-realism :
10:48<Tefad>wouldn't that just be d - c - b - a?
10:48<Tefad>i mean -d - ..
10:48<@Belugas>hope i've made myself a bit Clearer this time ;)
10:48-!-davis-- is now known as davis-
10:48<@Belugas>and that it make sens
10:48<@Belugas>hello all byu tghe way
10:48<Tefad>or is this not mathematics ; )
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10:49<@peter1138>Celestar, it should be a button, or a dropdown list. CTRL+click was a quick hack ;)
10:50<fjb>extspotter: Please make trams going that way zickzack betwenn the stations in a crowded city.
10:50<fjb>Hello Belugas
10:50<extspotter>Its impossible
10:51<extspotter>dont cross tramtracks
10:51<fjb>extspotter: See
10:51<extspotter>thats another way
10:51<Prof_Frink>extspotter: Or the streams.
10:52<fjb>Belugas: If Georges industries are hardly fitting, then ISR is way out of bounds regarding TTD style.
10:52<fjb>peter1138: Thanks.
10:53<Tefad>Prof_Frink: hehehe.
10:53<extspotter>Industrial stations renewal
10:53<@peter1138>Nah, ISR's eyecandy fits in with TTD's style.
10:54<@Belugas>they do fit in TTD's style
10:54<fjb>ISR fits way better with George's industries than with the standard TTD industries.
10:55<@Belugas>George decided to use photorealistic industries
10:55<fjb>Don't count the placeholder industry like the sand pit.
10:55<@Belugas>that's hardly fitting
10:55<@Belugas>they try to look realistic
10:55<@Belugas>while ISR, from waht i've seen, does not aim at that
10:56<fjb>The coal mine, the factory etc are well fitting.
10:56<@Belugas>it's still a drawing and not a rendering
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10:57<fjb>And that are the industries with building stages and changes over time. So we can expect that those indsties are how the set will loke like when it leaves beta state.
10:58<fjb>The rendered graphics are placeholders afaik.
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11:08<@peter1138>The coalmine and factory, whilst not photorealistic, have a different style than TTD.
11:08<@peter1138>Nothing to do with realism though :)
11:08<Celestar>extspotter: which ATR do you want?
11:08<Celestar>peter1138: can you add a dropdown list? I've had an idea for another view type that might help
11:08<Celestar>(while playtesting)
11:09<@peter1138>I can.
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11:22<Celestar>peter1138: I'm pretty convinced I have found the last reason for desyncs in cargodest (the only one we hit)
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11:24<Celestar>peter1138: routing_classes.h:169 :D
11:25<@peter1138>Is that fixed then?
11:26<Celestar>peter1138: that needs to be done.
11:26<@peter1138>Is there any way of doing the smallmap better?
11:27<Celestar>peter1138: situation. station->xy gets modified. routes not recomputed (now). client goes off, client rejoins. client recomputes routing system with new station->xy. Game state different (the routing system might even be the same, but I'm pretty sure it'll affect the seed, will it not?)
11:27<Celestar>peter1138: yes. Make it zoomable (=
11:27<extspotter>Celestar - interested in doing it?
11:27<Celestar>peter1138: VERY far off: click on a station blob, and display only routes into or out of that blob (=
11:27<Celestar>extspotter: yes, but not before September 20 (=
11:27<@peter1138>Codewise, I meant.
11:27<extspotter>thats fine
11:28<extspotter>its going to take a while to do the set...
11:28<@peter1138>Directly using the edge list instead of using the routingvector stuff (that was supposed to be a temporary thing, heh)
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11:32<Celestar>peter1138: well, we'd need to find the in-edges of a vertex
11:33<Celestar>peter1138: this is only possible easily when we tell boost to store the in-edges of each vertex (is a one-word change, but increases memory consumption a bit)
11:33<Celestar>and I think the RoutingVectorThingy is nice
11:34<Celestar>peter1138: storing the in-edge would also simply (and greatly accelerator) updating when station->xy is modified.
11:38<Forked>red food dye in the waffle mix didn't really give a good result.. I reccomend blue food dye for waffle mix, thats blue food dye. Have fun :)
11:41<Ammler>Belugas: I hope you flagged it for "forever" :-)
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11:42<Ammler>hehe, I should scrolldown before replaying...
11:43<@peter1138>That's okay, we understand.
11:44<@Belugas>Ammler, what are you refering to?
11:45<@peter1138>Okay, I understood :p
11:45<@peter1138>Belugas, realism.
11:46<@Belugas>ho... the paste... well.. i'm gonna place it in my dev space, i guess
11:46<@Belugas>so i'm going to repeat myself endlessly :S
11:46<@peter1138> < That looks a little like a Rigs of Rods model :o
11:46<roboboy>my game of OTTD is turning out really good with your and celestars patch peter
11:47<Celestar>roboboy: :D
11:48<roboboy>I restarted a few hours ago after failing with UKRS at 1920 so I restarted in 1951
11:49<roboboy>shall post screenies in the morning/when I get time
11:55<Celestar>peter1138: store the in-edges or not? :P
11:58<@peter1138>For what?
11:58<Celestar>for the drawing for example, for the recomputation of routes after station->xy has been changed...
12:01<Celestar>peter1138: on a reasonably large game, this increases virtual memory consumption by 0.1% :P
12:02<@peter1138>If xy changes, just mark appropriate bits dirty
12:02<@peter1138>Or restart the whole lot :p
12:03<yorick>Celestar: 1000 x 0.1% is quite a lot
12:04<Celestar>peter1138: restarting would be the easiest way really
12:04<Celestar>peter1138: seeing that station->xy changes are rare
12:04<Celestar>peter1138: but it feels clumsy
12:04<Celestar>yorick: ok in other words, I have 112kb more memory usage with storing the in eges. Whole game needs 66MB :P
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>640kB ought to... wait...
12:05<@Rubidium>ought to be enough for a 1 pixel pcx, right?
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that model is totally out of (TTD) scale :p
12:06<yorick>Celestar: yes, a single copy-paste template 255x255 is 40kb... doing a 2048x2048 one is around 40MB
12:06<Forked>OpenTTD h:e79bdd2 (Not Responding) :\
12:07<Celestar>Rubidium: dunno if you read it. found the last (and only) desync reason in cargodest (=
12:07<Forked>Celestar: did it have anything to do with the thing I saw yesterday?
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>and when you zoom out the picture to 12% you can't distinguish the double pantographs
12:08<Celestar>Forked: with the thing when the station sign moves?
12:08<Forked>Celestar: nope.. the thing where suddenly there was no route, but a reload made it refind it :)
12:08<Celestar>Forked: possibly (=
12:08<@peter1138>That's optimistic.
12:09<Forked>lets see if I can crash this again
12:09<@peter1138>Found the *next* desync reason is more likely :P
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see how that problem could make a route suddenly disappear
12:09<Celestar>peter1138: I've tried VERY hard to desync it (=
12:09<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: neither do I (yet)
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12:12<Forked>yay.. 7383 passengers to a local trainstation .. and I just had to try and rebuild the whole local mess :) (could not reproduce crash, meh)
12:18<roboboy>I just got charged for dropping or picking up passengers
12:18<roboboy>or atleast I saw red text saying cost and the only thing that happened under it was one of my trains arrive at its station
12:18<Forked>urgh. what a mess
12:19<Forked>roboboy: there was something about that in the thread on the board
12:19<Celestar>peter1138: we needa do something about the payment. For example show the income for the whole route in the final vehicle.
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>recalculate the transfer credits for the new total credit, and weight it by individual step distance
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>example: A-B is 10 tiles, B-C is 20 tiles, C-D is 10 tiles, in some kind of U shape (A-D = total distance 30 tiles)
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>when transferring at B, store the distance travelled (10) and show an animation for the preliminary virtual income
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>when transferring at C, calculate the new A-C payment, the new transfer credit of the A-B route gets calculated by A-C income*10/(10+20), and B-C by A-C income*20/(10+20)
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12:27<Eddi|zuHause>then when delivering at D, calculate the A-D income (X), and then distribute it by X*10/(10+20+10), X*20/(10+20+10), X*10/(10+20+10)
12:28<Celestar>hm ..
12:28<Celestar>why that complicated.
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>the preliminary transfer credit is almost always too high
12:28<Celestar>when the cargopacket is created, the system knows where it goes to anyway.
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>so it will get lowered this way to the real share
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12:28<Celestar>so we can like guestimate it beforehand (=
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>not when destinations are off
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>which has the same problem, only it surfaces not so often
12:29<Celestar>that's right
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>and it's not "complicated", it's a simple weighted mean
12:30<Celestar>code wide it's not easy because you need to store a crapload of things.
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>of course, you need to attach a complete list of travelled vehicles to the cargo packet
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>and it makes it difficult to join packets
12:31<Forked>this metro network is driving me nuts :\ I can't get it to both work smoothly AND shift all the god damn passengers
12:31<Forked>ah great, gridlock
12:31<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: it makes it basically impossible to join packets
12:32<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: so memory and cpu consumption will skyrocket
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>an alternative is to disband the cargo packet, create a new one at the transfer station, and make real payment. so waiting time at transfer stations will not be taken into account
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>only real travel time will get accounted for
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't need to be real payment, can still be virtual
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>but each segment will not be influenced by the previous segment
12:35<Celestar>I'd just reduce transfer payment by a factor of two or something
12:36<yorick>good afternoon
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>that might help, but not completely...
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>and will get you in real trouble when switching companies is possible
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12:39<Eddi|zuHause>on final delivery, you need to reconstruct exactly which company was responsible for which part of the transfer chain
12:39<Celestar>peter1138: whats your opinion on this?
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12:50<Celestar>I'll bbl
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13:21<yorick>someone finish combo...
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13:27<Celestar>back back fwd fwd back left back left right hipunch
13:28<Celestar>openttdcoop will get a whole new meaning with cargodest I'm telling ya
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13:37<Brianetta>This "feature" is really annoying
13:37<Brianetta>Many times I've wanted to close a station window, but keep the station's train list open
13:38<Brianetta>Just as I can with the train list for an orders sheet
13:38<+glx>it's not a feature, it's a fix :)
13:38<Brianetta>You broke it more
13:38<+glx>it didn't worked before
13:39<+glx>only train list was closed
13:39<Brianetta>That was bad enough
13:39<Brianetta>Now all of them close
13:39<Brianetta>which is worse
13:40<Brianetta>Perhaps, for consistency, you should also have the vehicles list froma shared orders window close when you close the wrong train?
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13:41<Brianetta>Is there a particular reason why the related vehicle lists must be closed?
13:41<Brianetta>Normally I want the vehicle list open but the station window closed
13:41<@peter1138>Oh, is that what that commit was...?
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>some of these forced window closings drive me crazy sometimes
13:42<Prof_Frink>peter1138! NewWindowShade!
13:42<Brianetta>It is annoying
13:42<Brianetta>Still, at least I now know what to change to fix it
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>like when the order window closes just because i want to see what a train has loaded
13:42<+glx>it's like that since r1009
13:43<Brianetta>glx: That doesn't some how make it less irritating
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13:44<Brianetta>Still, I have the diff for that commit, now, and I only need to delete for lines and change the + to - in the other four
13:46<Brianetta>Shame I have to fudge the Makefile for multiplayer compatibility )-:
13:47<+glx>@openttd commit 1009
13:47<@DorpsGek>glx: Commit by tron :: r1009 /trunk (18 files in 2 dirs) (2004-12-10 18:16:08 UTC)
13:47<@DorpsGek>glx: -Feature: per-station vehicle lists
13:47<@DorpsGek>glx: This adds a little button per vehicle class to the station window which opens a list of all vehicles that have this station on their schedule.
13:47<@DorpsGek>glx: As side effect this gets rid of some global variables.
13:47<+glx>the auto close came with the lists
13:48<yorick>tron :o
13:48<Brianetta>There's no auto close on orders lists
13:48<Brianetta>which is so much better
13:48<Brianetta>I'm just testing out the new "doesn't close" feature
13:51<Brianetta>Oh, that's so much better
13:51<Brianetta>I can just lose the station window an dkeep the list open
13:51<Brianetta>There was me thinking it was some unavoidable side effect of being a child object or some nonsense
13:51<Brianetta>to find that it's four lines of code
13:51<Brianetta>and I can just delete them
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>there is no notion of "child" windows ;)
13:52<Brianetta>You want my patch? (-:
13:52<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: there is...
13:53<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: but there are also false childs
13:53<Brianetta>Losing the orders window when closing the vehicle, that's fair enough
13:53<Brianetta>but the vehicle lists are useful in their own rights
13:54<Brianetta>Once I've got it sorted and sized to manage all the trains using X terminus, there's nothing more annoying than forgetting that closing the station's window will close my train list
13:55<Celestar>k guys I gotta go
13:55<Brianetta>because I'm always closing station windows
13:55<Brianetta>They're so easy to open, because trains are easiest to click when they slow down at stations.
13:56<Celestar>Brianetta: I agree.
13:56<Celestar>I won't have time for coding this weekend :(
13:56<Celestar>peter1138: you're on your own in cargodest :P
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>how difficult would it be to not open a station window when clicking on a train that is in a station?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>i pretty much never want the station window
13:58<Ammler>that's a nice one :-)
13:58<Brianetta>It's easy enough to click the sation signif you *do* want it
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14:02<Eddi|zuHause>how about introducing a default station non-track-tile, and storing the non-track-edness in the map independently from the grf? that way you could build bufferstops and warehouses on "incompatible" slopes without worrying about the default fallback
14:06<Brianetta>Eddi: Why should such station tiles be railway station tiles at all?
14:06<Brianetta>Introduce a new station tile type
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14:06<Brianetta>generic tile, attaches to airports, docks, bus stations, rail stations, and doesn't have to add a train to the station sign
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14:10<Brianetta>I *still* don't understand why Belugas is so anti-realism.
14:10<Brianetta>He just listed a whole load of ways that OpenTTD wasn't as good as real life (:
14:11<Wolf01>because he's realist
14:11<@Rubidium>Brianetta: he isn't against realism, he is against realism as an argument to force us to code some feature
14:11<Brianetta>Yeah, you said that earlier
14:12<Brianetta>He only addressed that bit in part 2 of his text file
14:12<Brianetta>Besides, since when could anybody force anybody to code something?
14:13<@peter1138>I can.
14:13<@peter1138>So far it only works on myself though :(
14:13<Brianetta>Can you get code committed, though? (:
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>but he often dismisses features that have gameplay value just because it might have remotely to do with realism
14:13<@Rubidium>s/force/harass/ ?
14:14*Brianetta ocncurs with Eddi
14:14*Brianetta concurs, even
14:15<Brianetta>Rubidium: These desyncs definitely seem to be newgrf based, and specifically, are related to newgrfs my server isn't running right now...
14:15*bruce89 wonders if OpenTTD is getting too complex
14:15<Brianetta>I have a plan of re-introducing them
14:16<FauxFaux>There're too many choices for some things. Pathfinders.
14:16<Brianetta>Once I know which grf causes desyncs, I'll let somebody know
14:16<@Belugas>Brianetta, i don't mind realism in game. I think i brough some features that are pro-realism.
14:16<@Belugas>but to me, realism should only be a side-effect
14:16<@Belugas>the game is not a simulator
14:17<@Belugas>SAC tress are wonderfull
14:17<@Belugas>they do add a good degree of realism
14:17<@Belugas>it's an example
14:17<Brianetta>They don't act any differnetly form regular TTD trees
14:17<@Belugas>no, they just do LOOK good
14:18<Brianetta>I remember one realism argument against having double-headed locos being able to keep moving in the event of a breakdown
14:18<@Belugas>and that's the kind of stuff I find utterly boring...
14:18<@Belugas>or like that argument about speed plane while in breakdonw
14:19<@Belugas>or planes that shold not be in the air while break dones
14:19<Brianetta>Whereas for other,s it's the choice between spending more for a more reliable service, or less for a less reliable service.
14:19<@Belugas>all that stuff..
14:19<fjb>Let the plane crash.
14:19<Brianetta>See, you totally diverted from double-headedl ocos to planes
14:19<fjb>Gives a lot of fun.
14:19<Brianetta>For some reason, it always goes there
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14:19*Brianetta couldn't give a toss about the planes
14:19<@Belugas>Brianetta, tell me... what the game would gain out of it?
14:20<@Belugas>doj't say realims, it's not an argument
14:20<Brianetta>Belugas: If there were shared infrastructure, you could reduce your chances of a breakdown blocking somebody else's network at great cost
14:20<fjb>Apropos SAC's trees. Is there a version out there with building stages and snow yet?
14:20<Brianetta>You could invest in a double-headed train in order to keep a busy network from jamming every time one broke down
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14:21<Brianetta>or, yuo could choose not to invest like this, and risk the breakdowns
14:21<Brianetta>It's gameplay
14:21<Brianetta>I never mentioned realism, but anti-realism is always the reason why it's dismissed
14:21<@Belugas>wait wait wait...
14:21<@Belugas>i don't get it...
14:22<@Belugas>could you repeat the whole discussion of the double head stuff?
14:22<@Belugas>or at least summarizxe it?
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14:23<Brianetta>Double headed locomotives (that is, more than one on a train) should be more resistant to breaking down, perhaps limping off to the depot at reduced soeed to get fixed.
14:23<Brianetta>That's about the sum of it.
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14:24<@Belugas>why should they be more resistant?
14:24<Brianetta>Or just limping along their regular route intil fixed.
14:24<Brianetta>Because there's two of them
14:25<Brianetta>One breaks down, the other one drags it.
14:25<@Belugas>so you mean one would end up pulling the other plus the convoi?
14:25<Brianetta>You'd lose the broken down one's HP, but keep its mass
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14:25<Brianetta>and perhaps it'd have a wagon-style speed limit
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14:26<@Belugas>but what is the point of being two adding more resistance?
14:26<Brianetta>until it got fixed
14:26<Brianetta>which they can already do where they are
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14:26<Brianetta>They don't stop
14:26<Eddi|zuHause><fjb> Apropos SAC's trees. Is there a version out there with building stages and snow yet? <- last statement that i read from SAC was around the lines of "those aren't even drawn yet, because my scenario is temperate, so i focus on that"
14:26<Brianetta>Breakdowns are a bitch when they happen at a busy crossing
14:26<Brianetta>If your train could keep going, it'd be worth investing
14:27<@Belugas>Brianetta, i don't see the point of reducing breakdonws because they are two
14:27<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Thank you.
14:27<Brianetta>You're not reducing them
14:27<Brianetta>THey still happen
14:27<@Belugas>i agree that maybe on a break donw, they might continue with reduced spedd,
14:27<Brianetta>but unless they *both8 break down, the train doesn't sotp
14:27<@Belugas>currently yes. but it may be due to some code conditions
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>it's called "single point of falure"
14:28<@Belugas>i'm not aware too much of that part of the code
14:28<@Belugas>and i don't know how easily it can be done, if ever
14:28<@Belugas>but antin-realism wold nit be an argument from me, for sure
14:28<Brianetta>It's a simple idea, but usually it gets shot down after somebody brings up "hey, it's realistic / not realistic enough / what about broken down planes
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>you add a second independent system, so when one breaks, the whole system can be kept running
14:28<yorick>the breakdown smoke isnt made to move with the train
14:29<bruce89>what about planes which get impounded?
14:29<@Belugas>Brianetta, the point of bringing the planes in is more about balance than anythi g else
14:29<Brianetta>yorick: I for one could stand to see one not smoking whilebroken down. I'd get over it, with counselling, I'm sure.
14:29<Brianetta>I never build planes.
14:29<bruce89>for not paying the landing charges
14:29<@Belugas>you caoonot "fix" something on one part of the game withouth doing the same on other conditions
14:30<Brianetta>I did build some helicopters in a recent game
14:30<Sacro>Brianetta: sacrilidge
14:30<Brianetta>Besides, double headed trains would break down like planes do (:
14:30<Brianetta>It's *more* balanced
14:30*Sacro would love to have dual cl20 trains :D
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i don't understand the plane argument either
14:31<Brianetta>Single headed trains would be just as lousy as they are already
14:31<Tekky>you should also distinguish between the TRAIN braking down and the ENGINE braking down.... in the original Transport Tycoon Deluxe, there was no such distinction. But now that we may have multi-headed trains, I think such a distinction is necessary.
14:32<Sacro>maybe after a vehicle collision the whole train breaks
14:32<Sacro>but normally just the eingine does
14:32<Brianetta>I'd like to be able to stop a broken down vehicle.
14:32<bruce89>bendy buses?
14:32<Brianetta>Currently you have to watch it like a hawk and stop it as soon as it gets fixed.
14:33<Brianetta>bruce89: They have a wagon
14:33<Tekky>a malfunction in the fail-safe braking system of a carriage of the train is also a frequent cause of a train brakedown.
14:33<bruce89>Brianetta: aw
14:33<Brianetta>Tekky: That's realism speaking (:
14:33<bruce89>DMU carriages can be locomotives though
14:33<Brianetta>All wagons can be locomotives
14:34<hylje>pulling bogies
14:34<Brianetta>Depends how much work the newgrf author puts in
14:34<Brianetta>hylje: out of noses
14:34<Brianetta>UKRS is less realistic with Voyagers
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>problem can be the ET-87, as they have a "fake" locomotive
14:35<Brianetta>They're a DMU, sure, but every car is powered
14:35<hylje>speaking of special bogies, /me would enjoy a slot-based upgrade system for vehicles in general
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>so they are double headed when they really aren't
14:35<Brianetta>in the UKRS, though, you addpassenger coaches
14:35<Brianetta>Eddi: Sounds like out class 91 with its DVT
14:36<@Belugas>Tekky gave me an idea tough,,, depending of how the code is done, maybe some random cause of breakdonw can be programmed
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: ET-87 is an engine in the middle with two steering wagons
14:36<@Belugas>so there might be differnt effects of break dones
14:36<bruce89>no wonder TTD is the way it was
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: but the GRF does not allow that, so they have a 1hp "engine" and a 499hp "powered wagon"
14:36<@Belugas>those who sto the vehicles and those who just slow them down
14:37<@Belugas>but hey... i'mnot going to venture there.
14:37<@Belugas>got already toomuch to do
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14:37<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: so the have two "engines" (in game terms), when they only have one (in reality terms)
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>so the partial breakdown stuff would malfunction
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14:38*bruce89 would like a wee combo saying "OTTD mode" and "TTD mode" instead of huge numbers of preferences
14:38<Brianetta>That post links pics of the Class 91 gear
14:38<Tekky>I have another idea for breakdowns: Instead of trains braking down for a fixed interval, the train is broken down until a repair train reaches the broken down train. As soon as a train breaks down, a repair vehicle is automatically deployed form the nearest depot. :)
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>but is totally unrelated ;)
14:39<Tekky>Now that's realism :)
14:39<@Belugas>bruce89,up the sleeves and start coding ;)
14:39<Noldo>oh no, the R-word
14:39<Brianetta>Not totally. The APT was going to be a little like that,
14:39<Brianetta>with a power car in the middle and two DVTs
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14:40<bruce89>Belugas: indeed
14:41<@Belugas>or better yet, use both games ;)
14:41<bruce89>I just think that patch dialogue is gey big
14:42<Brianetta>"The APT-P trains were designed as two half-trains with twin power cars in the middle, sharing one pantograph."
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14:44<Eddi|zuHause>keep in mind that the ET-87 were constructed in 1914 ;)
14:44<Brianetta>Not as fast, though
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>they were not meant for express service
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>(but that's only a 2 part train)
14:46<Brianetta>They resemble a tram.
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>they go 160km/h
14:46<Brianetta>Quite respectable.
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>built in 1935
14:47<Brianetta>Couldn't that be built as a single articulated unit in TTD?
14:47<@Belugas>Brianetta, how the train would look like when slowed down by one a of double-head breakdonw?
14:47*hylje wonders how comfortable it would be to ride that train at 160km/h
14:47<@Belugas>waht visual impact would there be?
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>MB used the same construction mechanism as the ET-87 for them in the DBSetXL ("unrealistically" making it a 3 part train)
14:48<Brianetta>Belugas: Aeroplane-style smoke perhaps, reduced speed, and a red flag in the window.
14:48<hylje>because those newfangled local trains which go up to 160km/h shake somewhat
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>he said something about gameplay value
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14:50<Eddi|zuHause> <- there are also those, as a diesel train from the same period
14:51*Belugas likes the plane-smoke idea
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>those established track records in the late 1930's that were not broken until the ICEs came
14:51<Brianetta>It's a good looking train. I don't think a train of that shape has ever operated in the UK
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>there's also a 3 part variant of those
14:52<Sacro>Brianetta: more tram shaped
14:52<Brianetta>The one in the top photo
14:52<Brianetta>Is it really coupled to an S-Bahn?
14:52<Sacro>actually, might be similar tube stock
14:52<Brianetta>Sacro: Straßenbahn means tram (:
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: that's basically a "museum track" in the Leipzig Main Station
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>there is a "Ferkeltaxe" next to it, that was used for S-Bahn service
14:53<Brianetta>Cool. All our museums are off the mainline; even York's big museum has its own premises adjacent to the station
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>and two old electric engines
14:54-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's so close, but i have never managed to go there...
14:56<Brianetta>Go this weekend (:
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i have absolutely no time this weekend...
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>we have "Laternenfest", which is like the biggest festival of the town each year
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15:06<@peter1138>Hmm, I've not desynced
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>how dare you! :p
15:07<@peter1138>I know!
15:08-!-LordAzamath [] has joined #openttd
15:09<LordAzamath>peter1138: Are you here?=
15:10<Forked>I love the scripts that autoreply to such questions :)
15:10<@peter1138>Oh crap!
15:10<@peter1138>I wondered why my signals had changed back to normal signals.
15:10<@peter1138>Then I remembered it's 0.6.2 :o
15:11<LordAzamath>anyway, Can you do me a favour. To split off the nfo errors related discussion from the OpenGFX topic
15:11<LordAzamath>I think I've filed a report on it too, a while ago, but maybe I didn't hit the submit button :P
15:11<LordAzamath>because there has been no action about it :P
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15:12<Eddi|zuHause>"It turned out that the tilting mechanism was, in effect, working too well. It was perfectly compensating for lateral forces around curves, which induced motion sickness, since the eyes could see turning but the body did not feel it; reducing the tilt by a few degrees so that the curves could be felt cured this." <- that's cool :p
15:14<bruce89>Pedolinos use the same technology I hear
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15:15<Ammler>seriously, we should decide for one palette to remove those stupid errors:
15:16<Brianetta>bruce89: They do. Also, the Mk4 passenger coaches were always ready for a retrofit to tilters.
15:16<Brianetta>It's just that they're only used on the East Coast Main Line, which has no corners to speak of.
15:16<@peter1138>Ammler, or the GRFs should be coded properly.
15:17<Ammler>well, guys which load the wrong grf is just one problem, we also have "our" MP problem.
15:18<Brianetta>It's a shame that the game can't tell which palette a newgrf is using, especially since newgrf is supposed to be modern.
15:18<Ammler>2 palettes makes the whole handling unneeded complicity
15:19<Ammler>complicated maybe?
15:19<Brianetta>complicity means they're teaming up
15:19<@peter1138>The problem is, everyone uses Windows GRFs, but DOS GRFs can have more colours...
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15:19<Brianetta>peter1138: Is that a problem>
15:19<Brianetta>Which newgrfs have more colours available int heir DOS version?
15:20<@peter1138>At least Michael Blunck's, I suspect.
15:20<Brianetta>I could switch. I have the DOS files on CD too.
15:20<Brianetta>I suspect most people just pirate the files from Owen
15:20<Ammler>I guess, he just use the dos palette, because it is "better" organised
15:20<Brianetta>He has made Windows ones available.
15:20<@peter1138>Firstly we need to detect if the NewGRFs are for Windows or DOS.
15:21<Ammler>but as he likes to have windows grf too, he has to exclude those colors, too.
15:21<@peter1138>(Or just have a manually set flag somewhere)
15:21<@peter1138>Ammler, no, they just get lost in the conversion.
15:21<Ammler>lost to?
15:22<@peter1138>Replaced with a similar colour.
15:22<@peter1138>Hmm, on the other hand... we support 32bpp...
15:22<Ammler>like described on "his" palette image.
15:22<@peter1138>Palette need not actually matter.
15:22<@peter1138>Okay guys.
15:23<@peter1138>Here is the definitive reason why multiheaded breakdowns don't behave differently.
15:23<@peter1138>We just haven't bothered doing it yet, and noone's done a patch.
15:24<@peter1138>Except that one in the forums.
15:24<@peter1138>Back to palettes...
15:25<LordAzamath>btw, peter1138, to be an annoyance, can you then split off the DaleStan - Foobar discussion from OpenGFX thread?
15:25<@peter1138>If DOS contains all of Windows' colours, then everything can be converted to DOS. Hmm.
15:25<DaleStan>Unless there are Windows grfs that use the pinks.
15:26<@peter1138>Get your spanner out!
15:26<DaleStan>I know MB uses the pinks, but I think he uses pinks that appear in both palettes.
15:26<LordAzamath>are there?
15:26<LordAzamath>hmm k
15:27<DaleStan>On the other hand, the pinks are too similar for me to visually distinguish them.
15:27<@peter1138>212, 0, 212
15:28<frosch123>You cannot automatically convert between dos and windows grfs when the grf supplies his own recolor sprites that remap pink. Though I don't know whether some grfcoder uses that or might ever want to use...
15:31<fjb>peter1138: 32bpp would be best choice, there are not enough kinds of red even in the DOS palatte to get near the different kinds of red the german railways used to use.
15:32<frosch123>btw. I dreamed of replacing grfid and md5sum by some cryptographical hash that reprensents non-static grf properties like the action1/2/3 tree after activation. So real sprites would not matter anymore :)
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15:33<Eddi|zuHause>you have sick dreams :p
15:33<fjb>Hi extspotter
15:34<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: frosch123 studied in Clausthal, that may cause such ideas. :-)
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>too much alcohol-free beer you mean?
15:34<frosch123>I read the unofficial hg book at work
15:35<frosch123>to much waiting for compiling, data model generation and such...
15:37<@peter1138>fjb, well, just convince MB to make 32bpp graphics then ;)
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15:46<extspotter>Are the sprites made bigger then condensed
15:46<@peter1138>You can make them how you like.
15:46<Brianetta>extspotter: Often they're direct pixel art
15:46<@peter1138>They're the same size in game.
15:46<Brianetta>Pikka's AV8 planes are rendered
15:46<extspotter>Yeah,I wasn't sure because comparing 8bpp to 32bpp looks way mroe detailed
15:46<@peter1138>AV8 is rendered and then tweaked to look right :)
15:46<extspotter>and true to life
15:47<extspotter>which is why I am using it as my base for the uk plane set
15:47<extspotter>the ATRs we have already done look sooooo fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine
15:47<fjb>But how about palette animation, like airport lights and end of train devices?
15:48<@peter1138>Also uses the separate 8bpp image.
15:48-!-bruce89 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:48<extspotter>I'd better take the birthday boy for a night-time walk
15:48<extspotter>see you in about 15 mins
15:48<@peter1138>Oh, is it Sacro's birthday?
15:48<extspotter>:p close
15:49<Eddi|zuHause><extspotter> Yeah,I wasn't sure because comparing 8bpp to 32bpp looks way mroe detailed <- that's because the artists make them bigger, but that is not supported in the game
15:49<extspotter>my dog
15:49<extspotter>eddi- thanks
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15:50<Sacro>peter1138: really?
15:51-!-welter [] has joined #openttd
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes. you must not question the peter1138.
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>for his words are holy
15:55<@peter1138>Full of holes, maybe.
15:57<+glx>peter1138: ok for me
15:58-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>oh, the jumbo jets strike again...
15:58<@peter1138>dbg: [grf] [custom/pack/7.2/1_other/OpenGFX/OpenGFX_-_newInfrastructure_v0.6.grf:1208] LoadNewGRFFile: Unexpected sprite, disabling
15:58<fjb>I lost total track of my passengers network...
15:59<@peter1138>The reason we allowed it to continue is our NewGRF parsing used to suck.
15:59<+glx>it's better than it used to be
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>so now we can assume that the newgrf sucks instead?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i should really not turn on the lights...
16:04<@peter1138>DaleStan, there's something for you to reply with ;)
16:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14184 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf.cpp): -Codechange: [NewGRF] Since our NewGRF handling is better than it used to be, disable a NewGRF if unexpected sprites are reached.
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>at least it causes a full recompile :p
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16:09<@peter1138>Oh, LordAzamath left.
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16:10<Ammler>I hope they not just fix that sprite, they should also a little bit tune the tracks...
16:10<@peter1138>That's their problem.
16:10-!-Purno [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:10<@peter1138>I like the original graphics ;)
16:10<@peter1138>Which reminds me, I need to ... test ... this NARS2.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>does it have additional railtypes in it? :p
16:11<@peter1138>No, but it can replace the default rail graphics.
16:12<@peter1138>It's optional though, and doesn't, afaik, affect the stats.
16:12<@peter1138>So it should be simple to make a standalone replacement railtype.
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16:13<@peter1138>3.7MB :o
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>lots of soundeffects, it was said
16:14<@Belugas>right... that reminds me i wanted to touch the ambient sounds callback or somehting in that waay...
16:14<@Belugas>there are SO MANY stuff to do :(
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>add full realism :p
16:15<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause, just because it's you, i won't kick you :)
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's called "irony" around civilised people :p
16:16<@peter1138>Belugas, at least the basis of generic callbacks is supported.
16:16<@peter1138>You only need to call it ;)
16:17<@Belugas>indeed, at the proper timing and such. I know where to hook it up, just needed time to do it properly...
16:17<@Belugas>taht and finding a test grf ;)
16:17<@peter1138>Rubidium, since the ini changes, my NewGRF config doesn't seem to be saved...
16:17<+glx>is there a grf using callback 144 ?
16:18-!-welter [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:18<@peter1138>Yes, but I don't know which.
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16:21<fjb>Since the sound system got reworked some weeks ago I often have no sound at all when the screen is crowded with vehicles. Sometimes one get one of the sounds every other minute.
16:22<@peter1138>Hmm, those tracks are really narrow.
16:23<@Belugas>sound system reworked??
16:23<@Belugas>was it???
16:24-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
16:24<fjb>I was told so. At least that behaviour changed some weeks ago.
16:24<@Belugas>ho.. again a case of urban legend...
16:25-!-insulfrog [~trainslov@] has joined #openttd
16:25<Sacro>hey insulfrog
16:25<fjb>I'm not bekoming deaf...
16:25<Sacro>insulfrog: noticed you went in #simsig last night
16:25<fjb>Hi insulfrog
16:26<@Belugas>i like those assessments: I was told, I think i've seen or read, i guess etc etc...
16:26<insulfrog>Sacro: yeah
16:27<@Belugas>i don't deny that fjb, but since i'm not aware of any sound system rework, i may have to dispute your assessment
16:27<insulfrog>Sacro: but I'd probably forgottern to say hi :)
16:27<Sacro>insulfrog: heh, yeah, i was out at a friend's though
16:28*insulfrog chuckles
16:28<fjb>I asked about that change here and one of the devs told me that something changed in the code. Don't remember who it was and I did not lookm at the code.
16:29<insulfrog>well, I'm just going to have a quick go on TTDP for a bit
16:29<@Belugas>fjb, <something> is not <system rework>
16:30<@Belugas>freaking big difference
16:30<@Belugas>that's how false information is being transmitted
16:30<fjb>I had remembered it that way. Maybe is misunderstood it. My English is not the best.
16:30<@Belugas>which is false...
16:30<Sacro>Belugas: ORLY?
16:31<Sacro>[21:30] <Belugas> We HAVE A NEW MAP ARRAY GOING ON
16:31<@Belugas>[16:30] <@Belugas> which is false...
16:31*Sacro likes to misquote people
16:31<@Belugas>[16:30] <@Belugas> that's how false information is being transmitted
16:31*orudge deletes c:\openttd\new-map-array then
16:34<@peter1138>Hee, 3000 ton train ;)
16:34<@peter1138>Maybe I need two engines.
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>how can you dismiss feature requests with "requires the new map array" when you tell them that there is no "new map array" being developed? :p
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: use a E 94 ;)
16:35<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: it's just the perfect excuse for not implementing certain features :p
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16:36*Belugas nods
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>exactly ;)
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>i need longer passenger wagons :(
16:39<@Belugas>requires new map array
16:39<Wolf01>I need a new map array, does it require itself?
16:39-!-ben_goodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't... it just needs a "no bend" flag for articulated vehicles
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16:40<@Belugas>i think you have been contaminated by George :)
16:40<@peter1138>No, George wouldn't do it that way.
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't want bigger vehicles, the engines and freight wagons are fine. just longer passenger wagons
16:41<@peter1138>There's no nob end flag.
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>articulated vehicles solve the drawing issues with tunnels and stuff, and the no bend flag would make the vehicle stick to the previous vehicle in bends
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>hm, there was a grf with longer wagons, which was that?
16:43<Wolf01>stupid newindustries grfs... I need to fund new industries every 5 years.. and now I don't have enough money
16:44<fjb>I remember 20px long wagons, one of the eastern european sets.
16:44<@peter1138>20px is short.
16:44*ben_goodger quietly laughs to self
16:44<fjb>Wolf01: ECS? Build statues.
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>ECS really sucks...
16:44<fjb>peter1138: Then it was 40px.
16:45<@peter1138>I bet MB still isn't using the 32px depot handling...
16:45<fjb>Ecs doesn't suck, it just is in early beta state.
16:46<fjb>peter1138: What is the "32px depot handling"?
16:46<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, I don't remember which GRF that was, but I do remember it.
16:46<@peter1138>fjb, gives the depot window the same spacing between wagons as in the game view.
16:46<@peter1138>By default it is 32 pixels in game, and 29 pixels in the depot.
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>how did they do it? make the sprite for one wagon longer, and the other wagon invisible?
16:46<@peter1138>This is why DBSetXL overlaps and does nasty stuff in the depot.
16:47<@peter1138>There has been an option for a long time to make the depot using 32 pixels too.
16:47<fjb>How does TTDP handle the depot?
16:47<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, I don't remember that detail. I have a feeling it did actually just bend.
16:47<@peter1138>TTDP has that option too.
16:48<fjb>Does that save him some drawing?
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's just a single flag to set...
16:49<frosch123>the car transporter in the serbian rail set is an articulated wagon
16:49<@peter1138>It makes it look prettier, but MB has in the past based his sprite lengths on the 29 pixel length.
16:49<@peter1138>This is why some of the shorter wagons have massive gaps between them.
16:49<@peter1138>(In game)
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i think he once said he intended to use 32px in version 0.9
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>but my memory might be vague there
16:50<@Rubidium>peter1138: the NewGRF config saving works for me
16:50<frosch123>maybe we should bundle dbset 0.9 with ottd 1.0
16:51<@peter1138>Preset saving works, just not the current config.
16:51<@peter1138>frosch123, no, ottd 1.0 would never get released ;)
16:51<fjb>So what scale should one use when starting a new train set?
16:51<+glx>peter1138: after game start?
16:51<@Rubidium>the TTD game scale
16:51<@peter1138>32 pixels now.
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>the not-george-scale
16:52<@peter1138>32 happens to divide into 1/8ths easily too.
16:52<@peter1138>4 pixels is the base unit for wagon length.
16:53<fjb>Yes, long vehicles like modern coaches have to be out of scale shortened that way. But width and height should the vehicles have?
16:53<@peter1138>8 pixels wide and 12 pixels high I think it is
16:53<fjb>Short vehicles can be in 4px steps be shorter than the full 32px length?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>catenary is 11 pixels high i thought
16:54<@peter1138>Yes. 32px - 28px - 24px, etc
16:54<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yes. We draw that incorrectly :p
16:54<fjb>Down to 4px minimum?
16:54<@Rubidium>peter1138: but I tested saving the 'current' config and that works for me
16:54<@peter1138>Minimum is something like 12px due to wagon-following-tricks.
16:55<fjb>What is the wagon-following-tricks? Sorry for asking that much.
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>just remember wagons can't be shorter than 3/8
16:55<+glx>Rubidium: hmm it doesn't work for me (but maybe it's because I have some duplicates in the cfg)
16:56<@peter1138>fjb, wagons in a train follow the wagon ahead.
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>i.e the "reduce length" property set to 5
16:56<@peter1138>Rubidium, I just deleted everything in the list, quit, restarted, and it was still there.
16:56<@Rubidium>peter1138: maybe you've got duplicate entries in the .cfg?
16:56<fjb>The interesting thing would be parts of an articulated locomotive. Say it has three parts. How short is the middle part alowed to be? 12px?
16:57<@Belugas>bye bye, see you next weel
16:57<fjb>Bye Belugas
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16:57<@peter1138>Only one [newgrf] section.
16:58<+glx>Rubidium: I cleaned the config it still fails
16:58<@peter1138>If I delete them all, then add one, then quit, all the old ones are there, and the new one is too.
16:59<@Rubidium>ah, so nothing gets deleted?
16:59<@peter1138>Looks like it.
16:59<@peter1138>"So why didn't we say so?" :)
16:59<Ammler>we are not able to fund forest
16:59<+glx>Ammler: climate?
16:59<Ammler>it appears a msg it needs to be above snowline
17:00<Ammler>but we have now january and the snowline is about 3 tiles lower
17:00<@peter1138>A message appears that it needs to be above the snowline.
17:00<Ammler>might it be a problem with dynamic snowline?
17:00<frosch123>the maximum snow line matters
17:01<Ammler>frosch123: bug or feature? :-P
17:01<frosch123>when a industry must be above snowline, it shall be above snowline the whole year
17:02<fjb>Another question about the scale if you don't mind: UKRS, NARS, Canset, and DBset are within that pixel boundaries but still have a different scale. Which fits TTD best?
17:02<Ammler>frosch123: for default industries, I see
17:03<Ammler>else they look strange if there is no snow :-)
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17:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14185 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix (r14153): removing NewGRFs from the config file was impossible.
17:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14186 /trunk/src/pbs.h: -Fix [FS#2255]: small typo (Jafinto)
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17:09*frosch123 expected "Jafinro"
17:10<frosch123>Ammler: the highest snow line test is only done for default industries, newgrfs have to implement their own test
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17:11<frosch123>and they can only get current snow line
17:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14187 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14104): silence warning when compiling without networking enabled.
17:12<Ammler>players spent about 1 billion until they realized it :-)
17:13<frosch123>oh, they tried to prespect :p
17:13<Ammler>yeah, no msg there
17:14<Ammler>then I changed to fund at the msg came,,.
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17:40<insulfrog>well, i g2g, cya :)
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17:43<@Rubidium>pompie ;)
17:54<TrueBrain>I am not stupid :(
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17:57<@Rubidium>and GT failed the test
17:57<GT>You know what I meant.., or else you are
17:57<GT>Rubidium: improve it
17:58<GT>show us that you pass
17:58<@Rubidium>I did, before you said something ;)
17:58<GT>OK, I will shut up then
18:00<@Rubidium>lalala should be reacted on with pompiedom. Any variation of the lalala should be reflected in the pompiedom. So in this case the correct replies would've been pompie, pomdom, piedom, piepom, dompie and dompom.
18:00<@Rubidium>only "dom" is incorrect; would've been valid for la though
18:01<GT> :-D
18:01<TrueBrain>Rubidium: it is mos tlikely the first time you replied correct (just for the record
18:01<fjb>Something eats my money...
18:01<TrueBrain>fjb: mice!
18:02<fjb>Hm, no a fleet of 747 getting replaced...
18:02<TrueBrain>about time
18:03<TrueBrain>those old 747 were getting dangerous
18:03<@Rubidium>fjb: silverfish help in eating money too
18:03<fjb>Yeah, luckily few accidents.
18:03<@peter1138>Rubidium, cool, a one-liner fix :)
18:04<fjb>Rubidium: I should go hunting silverfish in real life.
18:04<GT>Rubidium: thanks for the lesson, just when I started to think it was a useless day I did learn something today that is of invaluable use for the rest of my life
18:05<fjb>But I really lost control of the passenger flow...
18:05<+glx>fjb: cargodest?
18:05<@Rubidium>fjb: don't use T5
18:05<fjb>Yes, whar else...?
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18:06<@Rubidium>you haven't heard of T5? It's something aviation related ;)
18:07<fjb>No, not really. I refused to make a flight licence.
18:08<@Rubidium>T5 is the new terminal of Heathrow
18:08<@peter1138>Terminal 5, probably.
18:08<@Rubidium>and it had a few problems
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18:09<@Rubidium>basically the baggage handling didn't work as expected the first few weeks
18:10<+glx>probably not worse than CDG 2E ;)
18:10<Sacro>i had more issues with Budapest than T5
18:10<Forked>This sounds like heathrow
18:11<Sacro>budapest "forgot" to load my luggage onto the plane
18:11<Sacro>but loaded some due for tel aviv on instead
18:11<@Rubidium>then use a proper airline ;)
18:12<Sacro>british airways/malev?
18:13<ben_goodger>opening ceremony, with HM Queen Elizabeth: "this is where we lose all the baggage, ma'am..." "and this is where we cancel all the flights." "how interesting!"
18:13<ben_goodger>good old private eye
18:13<ben_goodger>I think it was BAA's fault, actually, rather than the airlines
18:13<ben_goodger>(british airport auth.)
18:14<fjb>Ah, that famous terminal. Didn't Monty Python sing about Heathrow?
18:14<@peter1138>Yes, they did.
18:14<ben_goodger>probably, but not about terminal five :P
18:14<@peter1138>Not about T5 though :)
18:14<@peter1138>Oh for gods sake :o
18:14<ben_goodger>sorry, I live here. :P
18:14<fjb>So they didn't learn at Heathrow?
18:15<@peter1138>At heathrow?
18:17<@Rubidium>Narita Airport is much better: landing to waiting to board next plane takes less than 30 minutes including baggage claim, immigrations and checkin for the connecting flight
18:17<@Rubidium>even checking in or taxiing at Amsterdam Airport takes longer than that :(
18:18<fjb>Which town approves the building of an airport? That with the center with the shortest manhattan distance to the airport?
18:18<ben_goodger>no, in england
18:18<ben_goodger>I hope to visit heathrow at some point in the near future, however
18:18<ben_goodger>or rather, I probably won't be able to avoid it
18:18<ben_goodger>oh dear, lagg
18:18<ben_goodger>mmm, at newquay also
18:18<ben_goodger>bristol is worse
18:19<fjb>Be careful not to disguise an a terrorist.
18:19<TrueBrain>that in general is a good suggestions
18:20<@Rubidium>but then, maybe the Japanese have organized their stuff better: "your plane will be delayed two hours because we need to replace a cracked windows, please come to the desk with your ticket to receive a food/drink coupon of 15 euros and go that way to go back to the unsecured area where you can use the coupons". And exactly two hours after the original departure time we were leaving.
18:21<@Rubidium>Usually I only hear a plane is delayed
18:21<@Rubidium>they don't know how long it will take
18:21<fjb>I'm in trouble building a new airport next to a really big town. That town is sourrounded by small villages, and they control the whole area outside the town. :-(
18:21<@Rubidium>and that you can basically buy yourself another cup of tea
18:23<Sacro>we where sat on a plane
18:23<Sacro>and the fual line was broked
18:23<Sacro>so we sat for an hour on the tarmac at budapest
18:23<ben_goodger>I can believe all the rest, but I can't believe a cup of tea could cost 2300 yen
18:25<@Rubidium>ben_goodger: no, tea's much cheaper, but it really amazed me that they were that clear about it and that they immediatelly started giving out those coupons
18:25<ben_goodger>yeah...that's entirely believable
18:25*peter1138 ponders sleepage.
18:25*Rubidium assigns peter1138 to newsleep
18:25<ben_goodger>I have no unpleasant aeroplane anecdotes due to my tender age, but I do know that heathrow has been using "naked scanners" for about a year --- they use some form of radiation that passes through clothing and reflects off skin, to display a live-updating nude picture of each passenger (and any dangerous tubes of toothpaste, etc on their person) as they walk through the scanner
18:26<@peter1138>Born_Acorn! NewSleep!
18:26<Sacro>ben_goodger: mm scanning?
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18:30<ben_goodger>apparently the operators are the same sex as the passengers
18:30<ben_goodger>this is meant to preserve human dignity
18:30<ben_goodger>it fails in this area
18:31<fjb>Hm, be aware of female terrorists...
18:32<ben_goodger>well, females are scanned also
18:32<ben_goodger>however, passengers can opt out, and be patted down --- which ruins the entire point
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18:33<fjb>The anti terror hype is way beyond any point.
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18:35<Rexxars>trying to compile the daylength patch in, and theres some changes to the language files
18:35<Rexxars>stupid question, but how do I compile the new language files? :P
18:35<SpComb>using make
18:36<Rexxars>I'm on windows :x
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18:36<TrueBrain>use make
18:37<TrueBrain>(oh, bad bad bad :p)
18:38<fjb>Can somebody answer my airport question? Please.
18:38<+glx>Rexxars: what are you using to compile?
18:39<TrueBrain>fjb: yes (or no, I don't know the question)
18:39<Rexxars>glx: visual studio
18:39<fjb>Which town approves the building of an airport? That with the center with the shortest manhattan distance to the airport?
18:39<Rexxars>all I can see that it outputs is strings.h ^^
18:39<+glx>then don't worry about language compilation it's done when creating strings.h
18:40<Yexo>fjb: afaik that's correct, but note that the topmost tile of the airport counts
18:41<Rexxars>well everything else compiles, so I want to play it.. but the language files arent being compiled (or at least, I can't find em, heh)
18:41<fjb>So I have a town with a noise level of 32, but it is that big, that every tile outside that town is closer to the ceter of one of the surrounding towns.
18:43<fjb>Here is my problem. I want to upgrade the southmost airport:
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18:44<Rexxars>nevermind, I'm an idiot... found em :p
18:48<fjb>No, you are no idiot. There are other people:
18:49<fjb>Somebody complains that the grf is broken, he is not able to get the buffers right.
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19:54<fjb>One of my brand new 747 crashed. :-(
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20:22<Brianetta>Please assess for comedy value:
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20:24<Gekz>+1 Informative
20:32<Brianetta>It shouldn't be informative
20:32<Brianetta>It should be "-1 stating the bloody obvious"
20:32<Brianetta>alas it seems I'm not
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22:17<@Belugas>i THINK i have the solution, Phantasm
22:18<Phantasm>You do? ;P
22:19<Phantasm>So, what is it?
22:20<@Belugas>the main problem is that i was too concetrated on the montly process of industries
22:20<@Belugas>so, at each month's end, ususally, the process of industries take place
22:20<@Belugas>where the creation as well as the destruction are happening
22:21<@Belugas>so, one of my biggest fears was that thecreations would eventually be too much to ask
22:21<@Belugas>and the system would crawl to a stale
22:21<@Belugas>so instead, i'll run the creations each day, but in smaller numbers
22:28<@Belugas>hehehe... i just need to get a good algo regarding numbers to handle per days now :D
22:29<@Belugas>'cause with the quick test i hacked, my poor 64*64 game will be over crownded in a month ^_^
22:30<Phantasm>With once a day, the percentage newer goes above 100%, so you can just play with percentage.
22:30<@Belugas>and indeed, the engine has not slowed down enough to be noticable
22:31<@Belugas>but it's still a long way to go
22:31<@Belugas>but now, i do have a line to follow ^_^
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 30 00:01:16 2008