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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-02

---Logopened Tue Sep 02 00:00:45 2008
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00:47<Forked>someone put back online :\
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01:08<Forked>urgh. so trying to compile cargodest in mingw32.. and getting it to find boost is giving me a hard time :)
01:18<Forked>as usual my own fault for not extracting enough files.. cough
01:22<Forked>woo it works :)
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02:17<Forked>heya :)
02:17<Forked>I managed to get compiling going for me, but ran out of time.. I'll try that (former) norouting bug again later
02:18<Celestar>Forked: awesome
02:18<Celestar>Forked: because I need/want things fixed till tomorrows large-scale test
02:19<Forked>"This may take from a few minutes to a few hours" .. wee.
02:19<Celestar>RAID init?
02:19<Forked>defrag in vista
02:20<SmatZ>at least you have a rough estimate :-P
02:20<Celestar>defrag ...
02:21<Celestar>I haven't heard that term in YEARS
02:21*Forked aims to contribute
02:22<Celestar>so vista STILL needs defragging?
02:22<Celestar>I thought they'd learnt
02:22<Forked>it claims it does it once a week when I'm not around
02:23<Forked>but system is sluggish
02:23*Celestar hugs opensuse
02:23<hylje>the defragger also sucks more than it used to
02:23<Celestar>hylje: EVEN more?
02:23<Celestar>how's that possible?
02:23<Forked>I miss the DOS one, it looked cool :)
02:24*Celestar wishes MS would spend more time on actually the kernel of the OS than on stupid dogs, paperclips and insecurity-features.
02:28<Jerimiah40>use linux :P
02:29<Forked>ever tried MS Bob? :)
02:33<Jerimiah40>can't say that I have
02:35<Forked>I think MS tried to get all the CDs back to destroy them
02:36<roboboy>no cargo dest crashes to report
02:42<Forked>hmm, google chrome
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02:56<Celestar>Jerimiah40: I do (=
02:56<Celestar>roboboy: good (=
02:59<Jerimiah40>lol, MS Bob almost makes me want to load up a VM to see just how bad it is :P
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03:09<Ammler>morgen #openttd
03:11*roboboy wonders how long it would take to compile open ttd on a celeron 434mhz processor
03:12<roboboy>its an old pc that ive stuck server 2008 to learn how to use server
03:13<Jerimiah40>how can a celeron 434mhz even run server 08?
03:13<roboboy>bah server 2003
03:13<roboboy>its below the 03 requirements
03:13<Jerimiah40>that sounds better :P but still, how much ram?
03:13<@peter1138>15-20 minutes, I'd guess.
03:14<roboboy>im just checking ram
03:14*peter1138 wonders how best to merge fds with different handlers into a single poll.
03:15<@peter1138>Or should I separate the programs...
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03:19<roboboy>320 mb of ram
03:20<Jerimiah40>ah, that's a fair bit
03:21<Jerimiah40>I'm running XP on a pentium III @ 500Mhz, 192 megs of ram
03:22<@peter1138>I'm running Ubuntu on a Core 2 Quad @ 2.4GHz, 2GB of RAM. But it's NEVER ENOUGH, I tell you...
03:24<Jerimiah40>Right now I'm on XP on an Athlon 64 @ 2.2GHz and 512 MB of RAM, I'm looking to upgrade to dual-core ASAP
03:26<roboboy>I wonder if VSCE can be run with command line switches
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03:37*roboboy fixes his printer and then configures it the way he has to for his IT course
03:38<Forked>AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 2800+, 512MB ram .. thats my linuxserver
03:38<TrueBrain>Sempron, brr
03:38<Forked>does the job for now
03:39<TrueBrain>it is like buying a Ferari, with a Ford K-engine
03:40<TrueBrain>oeh, a new Middleman :) :)
03:42<@Rubidium>:O that's great news... something new from TV/movie land after months of replays
03:43<TrueBrain>well, Middleman is running for 12 weeks now ..
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03:43<@Rubidium>a season running through summer?
03:43<TrueBrain>BoneKicker did too
03:43<TrueBrain>BoneKickers did too
03:44<TrueBrain>Eureka is for almost 6 weeks too now
03:44<roboboy>can windows give a list of all IP addresses in a lan (wifi)?
03:44<TrueBrain>but okay, the rest is starting this week, or tomorrow
03:44<TrueBrain>s/tomorrow/next week/
03:45<TrueBrain>roboboy: you want to snoop your wifi for all active computers? :)
03:46<@Rubidium>roboboy: Windows can't, though there are tools that do that which might run on Windows
03:46<TrueBrain>there is a very nice set of tools named like 2 persons, which can do well .. anything related to snooping
03:47<roboboy>im disappearing for a while
03:47<TrueBrain>(they even make man-in-the-middle attacks for RDP possible ... somehow people shouldn't make tools that make such things easy :s)
03:47<roboboy>so I could man in the middle attack my own terminal server
03:48<TrueBrain>if you consider that useful
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03:48<roboboy>I geese I could make it usefull somehow
03:49<roboboy>but im away for now
03:49<TrueBrain>have fun!
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03:52<Jerimiah40>AGH! Why is my internet connection so horrible
03:53<TrueBrain>get a new one
03:59<Jerimiah40>but this one's free!
03:59<TrueBrain>then don't complain
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04:07<Ammler>TrueBrain: then nobody could complain about OpenTTD ;-)
04:07<TrueBrain>Ammler: exactly :)
04:07<Jerimiah40>oh snap :P
04:07<TrueBrain>wouldn't that be a lovely world?
04:07<Jerimiah40>I'm not complaining, it was a question
04:07<Ammler>too lovely _P
04:08<Jerimiah40>but anyways, I think i'm going to head for bed
04:08<Jerimiah40>g'night everybody
04:09<Ammler>night Jerimiah40
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04:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14217 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_cargo.cpp ai_cargo.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: AICargo.GetCargoIncome() returned wrong values (you got to love the fact that a function claims to accept 'days' which are in fact 2.5 'days' .. so much for consistancy!)
04:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14218 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: [NoAI] -Fix r14217: and it wouldn't be a commit, if I didn't forget to update the regression ;)
04:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14219 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix (rthebeginning): 10 days != 6*2.5 days, effectively causing the payment graph to show the wrong data.
04:29<@peter1138>Where does the 2.5 come from, however?
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04:30<@Rubidium>(or 2224 in trunk)
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04:31<TrueBrain>but you have to know that even the GUI doesn't show the correct values (factor 1.6 or so is used there)
04:32<TrueBrain>bah, my english sucks today
04:33<TrueBrain>so nobody seemed to 'know' about this 2.5 factor ... ;)
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04:34<TrueBrain>then again .. like anyone would really notice :)
04:36<@peter1138>But was it right in TTD?
04:36<@Rubidium>peter1138: likely not (at least not in 0.1.4)
04:36<TrueBrain>who knows :) Maybe you could check TTDp, even then ...
04:37<TrueBrain>finding the right piece of code in asm, might be slightly tricky ;)
04:38<@peter1138>But looking at the graph won't be :p
04:38<TrueBrain>Rubidium: 0.1.4 can still be a ludde typo :)
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04:40<@peter1138>I added a scrollbar to the bottom panel of the NewGRF window. It looks terrible, but I can't see how else to show all the information :/
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04:47<roboboy> I hope ive told it to install all the right bits based on the wiki guide as the SDK installer has changed
04:48<roboboy>ohwell if I didnt I can ask questions later
04:49*roboboy waits and waits for the two SDKs to install and download
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05:10*roboboy hopes the download succeeds this timw
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05:17*Celestar sighs "life sucks"
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05:37<Celestar>I need the new airports :S
05:37<Celestar>LGA SFO and MUC
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>go rewrite newgrf_ports :)
05:37<roboboy>grr the directx sdk wont download
05:38<Celestar>LGA is small than the city airport, but has almost intercont-throughput
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>but don't you dare leave cargodest unfinished :p
05:38<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: there'll be a full-scale test starting tomorrow
05:38<Celestar>we're trying to bring the system to its knees
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>LaGuardia? as in the middle of new york?
05:39<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yes.
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>i need tram terminal loops...
05:40<roboboy>what system are you trying to bring to its knees
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05:40<Eddi|zuHause>ones with multiple bays in the same direction
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>those are awfully short runways
05:41<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: 6 tiles for the departing runway
05:41<Celestar>5 tiles for the landing runway
05:41<Celestar>the city airport has 6 tiles as well
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>but isn't 5 tiles too short for "big" planes?
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05:42<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: takeoff yes, landing no
05:42<Celestar>landing distances are MUCH shorter than takeoff distances
05:42<@peter1138>Looks a bit overloaded :p
05:43<Celestar>peter1138: :P
05:43<@peter1138>Celestar, yeah but gameplay wise...
05:43<Celestar>we have that too (=
05:43<Celestar>peter1138: it can be marked as small airport (=
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05:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i think "walking" passengers could be useful for decoupling independent networks. i.e tram network in one city, the passengers switch networks at the main station, so they pay fully for the tram ride, and start with a "clean slate" for the railway ride
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>then they transfer normally through the railway network, and pay fully at their target city when they again switch networks to the city's tram network
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05:56<roboboy>hm why wont the DIREXT X SDK download properly
05:57<roboboy>ill leave it one more
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06:09<Eddi|zuHause>because you use windows...
06:13*roboboy dinner
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06:44<Celestar>can I save the current game configuration into the cfg file?
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06:49<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: afaik there was a patch for that
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06:55<Ammler>Celestar: peter1138 presets patch was step one to that :-)
06:55<Ammler>but mostly enough :-)
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07:04<@peter1138>No it wasn't.
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07:17<Celestar>peter1138: have you seen the IS code?
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07:20<Ammler>peter1138: not for you, for me :-)
07:20<@peter1138>Seen the what?
07:20<Ammler>I am quite happy with it, anyway.
07:21<Celestar>peter1138: the Infrastructure Sharing Patch
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07:22<@peter1138>Oh, no.
07:22*Celestar goes reading it
07:24<Celestar>+ if(((facil==FACIL_DOCK) && ((st->owner == _current_player) || SharedHarbours(tile, _current_player))) ||
07:24<Celestar>+ ((facil==FACIL_TRAIN) && ((st->owner == _current_player) || SharedRailwayStations(tile, _current_player))) ||
07:24<Celestar>+ ((facil==FACIL_AIRPORT) && ((st->owner == _current_player) || SharedAirports(tile, _current_player))) ||
07:24<Celestar>+ (((facil==FACIL_BUS_STOP)||(facil==FACIL_TRUCK_STOP)) && ((st->owner == _current_player) || SharedRoadStops(tile, _current_player)))) {
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07:24<Celestar>it *MIGHT* want to code-factoring
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07:25<@Rubidium>Celestar: nah, that's perfectly readable, isn't it?
07:25*Celestar detemines the irony-factor in Rubidium's last statement
07:26<roboboy>where do you recomend I put my OpenTTD sourcecode that SVN gets? Especially sice the machine I plan to do my compiling probably wont have OTTD on it
07:27<Forked>on a SAN? :p
07:27<Celestar>the IS patch doesn't look too bad
07:28<Celestar>needs some overhaul here and there
07:28<Celestar>but the general style is fine
07:28<roboboy>no just a server
07:28<roboboy>it may end up with openttd on it but not runing the version compiled
07:29<Ammler>roboboy: ~/openttd/
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>* Celestar detemines the irony-factor in Rubidium's last statement <- it's totally off my scales :p
07:29<roboboy>so in my documents since its windows server
07:30<roboboy>My Documents\openttd
07:30<Ammler>windows will have the datadir there
07:31<Ammler>roboboy: why not using the home for your c++ projects..., like your IDE will suggest...
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07:47<Celestar>I've read through the IS patch and made a few comments to get it up to snuff
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07:53<TrueBrain>Celestar: nice piece of code you pasted above :)
07:53<Celestar>TrueBrain: yeah, innit?
07:53<TrueBrain>any sane person would have used a switch, but who am I to judge ;)
07:53<Celestar>switch on what?
07:53<TrueBrain>and a sub-function, yes
07:53<TrueBrain>(or: CLASSES!)
07:53<TrueBrain>either way, what I wanted to ask: what is IS patch?
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07:54<Forked>you can rent track usage from other companies
07:56<TrueBrain>ah :)
07:56<@peter1138>Infrastructure Sharing, also known as Subsidiaries in a murky distant past...
07:57<TrueBrain>so only tracks? Not that stupid sub-company-blabla?
07:57<TrueBrain>pfew :)
07:57<@peter1138>Sub-company was pretty pointless.
07:57<TrueBrain>understatement, but yes :)
07:57<davis->shared tracks ?
07:58<davis->yay for jams
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08:00<Forked>I like it for airports
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08:03<Celestar>yeah but you could for example have stations where passengers change from one station to another.
08:04<Celestar>OR: one company builds the tracks, another runs the trains on it (=
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08:06<@peter1138>Wasn't there some objection to the method of linking competing players' tracks up?
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08:06<TrueBrain>Celestar: weren't you working on something else? :p
08:06<@peter1138>Once upon a time there was talk of using waypoints as 'gateways' to allow connections.
08:06<Celestar>TrueBrain: I _am_ :)
08:06<Celestar>TrueBrain: we're just preparing a full-scale test
08:06<Celestar>many players, many vehicles
08:07<Celestar>wanna join?
08:07<TrueBrain>hmm .. maybe :p
08:07<TrueBrain>first I am waiting for a reply from LeaseWeb
08:07<@peter1138>What's up?
08:08<@Rubidium>the disable-bit for vt-x
08:08<TrueBrain>which makes us not be able to run 64bit guests :(
08:08<@peter1138>Virtualization I'd guess.
08:08<Celestar>isn't that an OS feature?
08:08<@peter1138>Usually a BIOS tweak, sometimes needs a new BIOS :(
08:08<TrueBrain>a CPU feature
08:11<FauxFaux>Many players, as in, more than 11 companies? ¬_¬
08:12<Kloopy>8 :P
08:12<@peter1138>Feel free to implement it. Properly.
08:12<FauxFaux>Uh, 11 players, 8 companies. :(
08:12<Kloopy>Is it a big job, peter1138?
08:12<FauxFaux>Any idea what the limitation is? (I'm at work, no codes)
08:12<@peter1138>Properly, fairly.
08:12<TrueBrain>on a scale from 0 to 10, I guess, 12 :p
08:12<hylje>locating the things which imply 10 players
08:13<hylje>changing them to be agnostic (or refer to a #define)
08:13<Kloopy>Global search and replace for "8" to "32" on the code? :P
08:13<@peter1138>That would not count as properly.
08:13<FauxFaux>Clearly yuou'd be going for an unlimited number of players in a rewrite.
08:13<FauxFaux>Or, at least, as much as select()'d take.
08:13<Kloopy>Unlimited would be silly.
08:13<@peter1138>FauxFaux, not unlimited.
08:13<TrueBrain>hylje: the term 'players' is ambiguous :) Either use 'clients' or 'companies'
08:14<FauxFaux>Both. :)
08:14<@peter1138>Well, you could, if you altered storage in the map somewhat.
08:14<FauxFaux>Gotta go.
08:14<@peter1138>Unlimited clients is quite possible, however.
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08:14<hylje>Kloopy: some sixty thousand (2^16) would be close enough however
08:14<TrueBrain>peter1138: for windows it is rather limited .. :p
08:14<Kloopy>Are there only 3 bits in the map array for "company owner" then?
08:15<@Rubidium>there are almost 4 bits ;)
08:15<TrueBrain>after 3000 or so things go weird on Windows ... very weird ...
08:15<TrueBrain>(TCP stack issue)
08:15<Kloopy>"almost 4" :)
08:15<@peter1138>Mostly it's 8 bits.
08:15<FauxFaux>I'd complain about the nasty bit-packing everywhere, but it is pretty cool.
08:16<hylje>TrueBrain: arbitrary crippling more like
08:16<@peter1138>I think roads and level crossings break that rule, but nothing else?
08:16<FauxFaux>(Meeting delayed. \o/)
08:16<Kloopy>256 players is inice.
08:16<@peter1138>You couldn't have 256, heh
08:16<TrueBrain>Kloopy: the term 'players' is ambiguous :) Either use 'clients' or 'companies'
08:16<Kloopy>lol TrueBrain
08:16<Kloopy>256 companies* :P
08:16<FauxFaux>I'm not entirely sure the server'd be able to keep up with 256 clients and/or companies.
08:16<TrueBrain>I am serious, I never have a clue what people mean when they say 'players' .. it is used for both, so what do people mean :(
08:16<FauxFaux>Would need a bigger map, or world sharding.
08:16<Kloopy>I agree with you, TrueBrain.
08:17<FauxFaux>TrueBrain: I guess most people play single client/company, so it'd mean both?
08:17<@peter1138>There are ownership identifiers for water, towns and none as well.
08:17<hylje>sharding or clustering in some way will come up sometime in the future
08:17*Rubidium slaps the person who introduced network play for that ;)
08:17<Kloopy>That makes sense, peter1138.
08:17*TrueBrain goes sit in a corner
08:17<@peter1138>We could rename Player to Company...
08:18<TrueBrain>peter1138: please do
08:18<@peter1138>That wouldn't affect much :p
08:18<TrueBrain>but I already told that to Rubidium :)
08:18<@Rubidium>peter1138: then don't forget to change p->c and pid->cid ; )
08:18<Kloopy>I would imagine it'd be a slightly easier job to increase the number of clients but leave companies to 8?
08:18<@peter1138>Kloopy, much easier.
08:18<@peter1138>Although doing it properly isn't so simple.
08:18<FauxFaux>The current limit of 12 (well, 11 + server) sounds too arbitary to be a coincedence.
08:19<FauxFaux>It's not even 2^int.
08:19<@Rubidium>3 spectators ought to be enough, right?
08:19<Kloopy>Not if you're playing 2 people per company.
08:19<TrueBrain>FauxFaux: it is a random number of my imagination in fact :p
08:19<FauxFaux>TrueBrain: Hehe. :)
08:20<@peter1138>I did have a patch to convert clients into a smallvector...
08:20<TrueBrain>and it seriously is created the way Rubidium says: 8 + 3, should be enough for the next few years
08:20<TrueBrain>well .. was I wrong ;)
08:20<@peter1138>Or was it a std::vector... can't remember
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08:21<Celestar>I wish the different *_gui.cpp files wouldn't contain multiple windows
08:21<FauxFaux>He clearly likes thousands of files.
08:21<@peter1138>Well, I can guess. You editted the wrong window :)
08:22<TrueBrain>I agree with Celestar :)
08:22<@Rubidium>Celestar: have fun splitting them
08:22<@peter1138>What I want to know is why it's players.cpp, not player_cmd.cpp ;)
08:23<@peter1138>(And why some player, er, company related commands are in misc_cmd.cpp...)
08:24<@Rubidium>peter1138: hysterical raisins?
08:24<Celestar>Rubidium: I'm planning to (=
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08:38<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: when you write "8)", you should consider disabling smilies in that post :p
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08:38<Eddi|zuHause>(imho that smilie should be removed!)
08:38<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah ...
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08:38<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I noticed a little late, too lazy to edit now
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>should probably bitch to orudge about that ;)
08:44<Celestar>peter1138: good?
08:44<Forked>I like it :) .. also you need to move some passengers :p
08:44<Gekz>I dont
08:44<Gekz>it's so complex
08:45<Gekz>it visually disembowels me
08:51<Kloopy>Geks, if it's not the default view, then it's ok. I say that because at first, your network will be small and you won't have a tree 8 deep.
08:51<Kloopy>So when you are learning how cargodests works, it's easier at first.
08:51<Kloopy>And the treeview shows ALL the information which might be a bit over the top for some people who chose not to use it anyway.
08:52<Kloopy>However, if you want to see a complete overview of the cargo at each station, it's VERY useful and clearly shows it all.
08:52<Kloopy>One suggestion is that it might be a bit easier on the eyes if the word "passenger" was removed from the tree.
08:52<Kloopy>The top line that says "1,640 passengers" clearly stats that the tree is about passenger cargo.
08:53<Gekz>please use a z
08:53<Kloopy>The lines in the tree could then just say "(700 to Furstenberg, 661 continuing, 91 arriving)
08:53<Gekz>I don't have a name with an s on the end
08:53<Gekz>so that didnt highlight me
08:53<Kloopy>Sorry, Gekz... didn't mean to spell you wrong. :(
08:54<Gekz>Kloopy: good ideasx
08:54<Gekz>keep pumping them Mr Thinktank
08:56<@peter1138>Celestar, that's the job... you figured out my dropdown code? :)
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08:57<Pikka>hmm, anyone in the mood for a feature request, or are you all too busy with cargodest? :P
08:58<@peter1138>Which request?
08:58<Celestar>peter1138: yeah.
08:58<@peter1138>I found a problem with my expiring wagons patch :(
08:58<Pikka>xy coords of houses and towns
08:58<Celestar>peter1138: easy enough I must say
08:58<@peter1138>No wagons available in 2050, hehe
08:58<Celestar>peter1138: however, my initial string is not working
08:58<Celestar>peter1138: even if I set .data
08:58<@peter1138>Pikka, xy related to what?
08:58<@peter1138>Just tile cordinate?
08:59<Celestar>peter1138: the question is: why is that (=
08:59<@peter1138>Celestar, I'd have to see the patch.
09:00<Celestar>peter1138: problem found
09:01<@peter1138>Pikka, I guess you'd want XXXXYYYY, 16 bits for each of X and Y
09:03<Pikka>well, I could probably live with just xxyy, although it may cause oddities if a town goes over a 'board'...
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>internally, it's something like (y<<map_x) + x
09:03<@peter1138>That's not really useful for large maps.
09:04<Pikka>I'm only going to use it to compare the location of the building relative to the town
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>so the point where it switches between the y-bits and the x-bits is different depending on map size
09:04<@peter1138>What do you need to do with it? Would a distance variable be better?
09:04<Pikka>testing for distance and direction
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09:05<Pikka>a way to check for an ottd "city" would be handy too
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>there need to be more town classes in the future
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>like "village", "town", "city", "metropolis", "suburb", ...
09:06<@peter1138>Just wonder if we should return the tile absolute and let you compare them, or compare them in the variable and give you a relative offset.
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>each with different growth properties
09:07<Pikka>Eddi: I couldn't possibly comment. But insert usual spiel about how newgrf > "feature" here. :P
09:07<@peter1138>Maybe complex to do the comparison in varaction2 language, but... I dunno :)
09:07<Pikka>peter, let me compare them. I can handle it, and it'll be more flexible if anyone else wants to do something different with them.
09:08<Pikka>I also suspect it will be easier to convince someone to implement it in ttdp if you're just giving me the raw data...
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09:16<@peter1138>Okay, fine.
09:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14220 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.txt src/ai/api/ai_company.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix: recalculate company value on request (Yexo)
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09:17<@Rubidium> <- does that look okay for a Windows GRF ran on the DOS base GRFs, i.e. indstatw.grf and TRG1.GRF?
09:18<@peter1138>Looks fine.
09:18<@peter1138>Don't like the font though ;)
09:19<Brianetta>Rubidium: Distinct lack of magenta (:
09:20<@Rubidium>yeah, bad ain't it?
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09:23<@Belugas>hello boyz
09:23<@peter1138>Hello Belugas
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09:25<Celestar>I just wondered why ottd took minutes to startup
09:25<Celestar>and it hit one of my breakpoints :P
09:25<TrueBrain>lol @ Celestar
09:25<@Rubidium> <- and now I only had the DOS versions of UKRS/ISR but not the DOS base GRFs ;)
09:25<@Rubidium> <- and you can try it yourself too
09:26<@peter1138>How are you determining if a GRF is for Windows or DOS?
09:26<Brianetta>Surely one could just check for excessive magenta (:
09:27<@Belugas>Mister Nelson, I salute you
09:27<@Rubidium>the user says: I want THAT palette and this set of base GRFs, so it then converts the base GRFs to the required palette
09:27<Brianetta>It's all or nothing?
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09:28<Brianetta>Could you convert the palette per-newgrf?
09:28<@peter1138>Brianetta, no easy way to determine its palette.
09:28<Brianetta>Default to the base GRF palette, then have a toggle or button in the newgrf manager
09:28<@Rubidium>Brianetta: could do, but it isn't trivial to determine dos-ness
09:28<@peter1138>Rubidium, so is it committed yet?
09:28<Brianetta>The user would, as now, have to know which version she was loadingf in
09:29<Brianetta>and would hit the "switch palette" toggle for any newgrfs which are not matching
09:29<@Rubidium>Brianetta: this is more related to clients joining servers with a different palette
09:29<Brianetta>Ah, right
09:29<@peter1138>Solving a desync issue :D
09:30<Brianetta>Side-stepping the MD5 problem
09:31<@Rubidium>any other features could be implemented on top of it, *but* ... I haven't found a reliable way of detecting the palette of a NewGRF
09:31<Brianetta>You wouldn't need to
09:31<Brianetta>Place a manual toggle, and the user tells the game which ones don't match the underlying base GRFs
09:31<@peter1138>ben_goodger is famous!
09:32<Brianetta>If the user is clueless, it's no worse than at present
09:32<@peter1138> -- past two of that, heh
09:32<Brianetta>Is Chrome's source available?
09:32<@peter1138>I don't know, I've never heard of it before. If it's Open Source, however...
09:32<Celestar>why should we use (int)a instead of static_cast<int>(a) ?
09:34<@peter1138>Because we're C programmers.
09:35<@peter1138>Your question should probably be phrased as 'why haven't we converted from (int)a to static_cast<int>(a) yet?'
09:36<SmatZ>or int(a)
09:36<@peter1138>Is that a cast?
09:37<@Belugas>huh? we can cast stuff? WOW!
09:37<SmatZ>it's a constructor, I guess it behaves the same
09:37<@peter1138>Or a syntax error :p
09:38<Brianetta>(int)a to static_cast<int>(a)
09:38<Brianetta>well, that's a readability improvement
09:38<Brianetta>who invented that?
09:38<SmatZ>it does type check in compile time
09:39<@Belugas>can it type while checking compile time too?
09:42<dih>Brianetta: i would really like to get some kind of start or progress with autopilot...
09:43<dih>or (if needed) more detail in the outline
09:44<Brianetta>Just go ahead
09:44<Brianetta>I don't tend to have a lot of time at the moment
09:45<dih>righ.... :-(
09:45<Brianetta>It's the main reason that development wasn't going quickly
09:46<dih>yes - but i do love your input and feedback ;-)
09:46<dih>and generally picking your brains on bits and pieces
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>is there a reliable way to "downgrade" a savegame, as in load it in a new version, and save it as if saved with an older version?
09:54<SmatZ>no, sometimes it is possible with some coding, but it may be really difficult or impossible generally
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10:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's basically about one saved variable... but i think i can figure out a way
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10:02<dih> <- someone has some greate insight :-P
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10:06<Eddi|zuHause>"the airport, but it's square" <- that's not even true for TTD
10:07<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but 4 == 3, right?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>in a suitible subsection of maths, yes ;)
10:09<Celestar>he want's 90° rotation
10:09*Celestar remembers having that feature REMOVED
10:09<Celestar>after it was incomplete for about a decade
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10:10<Celestar>bah. obiwan :S
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10:11<SmatZ>Celestar: it was in OTTD?
10:12<Celestar>SmatZ: yeah. LONG time ago and never worked the slightest :P
10:13<@peter1138>It was a define...
10:13<Celestar>yeah about that :P
10:21<Forked>so there was some huge test of cargodest tomorrow?
10:22<Celestar>it's planned
10:22*Forked shows interest (if RL permits..)
10:22<Celestar>glx: could you please check whether there is some error in cargopacket.cpp:294 ?
10:22<Celestar>glx: MSVC
10:22<Celestar>glx: because Tekky reported one
10:23<Celestar>glx: also open for fix suggestions if need be
10:23<Celestar>gotta go :D
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10:23<+michi_cc>Rubidium: the IniFile reader chokes on files with LF line endings on windows when using the MS CRT (which is used by mingw as well)
10:24<@Rubidium>michi_cc: glx couldn't reproduce it
10:24<+michi_cc>Rubidium: a standard git checkout will for example produce .obg files with LFs
10:24<@Rubidium>and the old ini reader would've had the exact same issue
10:24<@Rubidium>unless MS is doing really stupid things
10:24<+michi_cc>the problem is that ftell will fail
10:24<+glx>the only failure I had was for \r
10:25<+glx>\r\n and \n worked
10:26<+michi_cc>verified by looking at the ms source code: ftell does a correction for the ignored \r by searching for \n in the buffer and adding one for each it found, regardless whether there really was a \r in front
10:27<+michi_cc>relevant quote from the MSVC 2008 CRT source:
10:27<+michi_cc>note that it actually never checks if there really was a \r
10:28<+michi_cc>setting the open mode of the file to "rb" did work for me locally because we strip \r and \n ourself anyway
10:29<@Rubidium>yay... thanks MS for fracking up your API
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10:44<Eddi|zuHause>hm... when duplicating a working copy (by "cp a b -r"), running "make" in b/ switches to directories in a/
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>you need to ./configure in b/ first
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10:45<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: yes configure stores full path
10:46<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yup
10:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14221 /trunk/src/ (viewport.cpp viewport_type.h): -Fix: signs (town name, station name, ...) could be too long for 8bit width in pixels
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>can you force a ./configure when a change of path gets detected?
10:46<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: happens for most configures btw (take gcc, same problem :))
10:47<TrueBrain>(then again, in gneeral you don't wnat 2 copies of gcc ;))
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>you force reconfigures when changing sources.list and stuff also
10:47<TrueBrain>then: make -f /my/dir/to/openttd/Makefile doesn't work!! :p (haha :))
10:48<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: might be easy to add, yes
10:48<TrueBrain>Rubidium: is ./configure --help already fixed?
10:50<Ammler>TrueBrain: dunno, if celestar asked you already, would it be possible to run tomorrow afternoon the compile farm for cargo dest?
10:51<TrueBrain>lol, make -f doesn't work at all :p
10:51<TrueBrain>Ammler: ask me tomorrow afternoon :p
10:51<Ammler>so you are around?
10:52<TrueBrain>(my memory is like .. what was I saying? :p)
10:52<Ammler>nice :-)
10:52<TrueBrain>most likely ;)
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>why does "SLE_CONDNULL(4,101,SL_MAX_VERSION-1)" not do what i want?
10:59<+glx>SL_MAX_VERSION is a fixed value
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10:59<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. loading an older savegame with a 4 byte variable which i want to ignore works, but saving that game i want to save it without this variable
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>right, it's totally senseless
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>i want current verison -1
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>not max version - 1
11:02<+glx>peter1138: <-- is this correct?
11:03<@peter1138>Err... whoops :o
11:04<TrueBrain>lol, configure is kind of broken in the way it was intended to be used :)
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11:04<Eddi|zuHause>weird encoding that file has...
11:05<@peter1138>glx, I think more changes are necessary there. That fix the warning, and work the same way it used to, but not really work properly.
11:05<@peter1138>I shall attack later.
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>yay, my variable removing worked, now i can load my game in clean cargodest ;)
11:09<TrueBrain>can I suggest this: (glx: can you test that for mingw?)
11:09<TrueBrain>with that pathc, you can run 'configure' again from a dir which is not the root of the OpenTTD source, and when you copy like Eddi|zuHause did, it triggers a reconfigure.
11:10<@peter1138>No makefile.bundle?
11:10<TrueBrain>(Makefile.bundle was renamed to, but of course 'svn diff' fucks that up)
11:10<@peter1138>Oh, right.
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11:10<TrueBrain>hehe :)
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11:12<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: that breaks Makefile.msvc
11:12<TrueBrain>well, that fix isn't that brain-breaking is it ;)
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11:15<TrueBrain> <- I suggest reverting this, as it makes ./configure --help silly (as if, say, gcc isn't detected, you can't get a --help ....)
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11:15<Promille>Did i understand this right?: You need the original TTD-game from Microsoft to install OpenTTD. There is an .deb for ubuntu/debian, but how can i install the original game, which i assume is only exe, when wine/cedega is not an option?
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11:16<Yexo>Promille: you only need the data files from the original game
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11:17<yorick>Promille: you only need the original TTD data files
11:17<yorick>from Micropose ;)
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11:17<Promille>ah i see. see i copy the data files and paste it where?
11:17<Yexo>or in /usr/share/games/openttd
11:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14222 /branches/noai/ (15 files in 3 dirs):
11:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix [API CHANGE]: make the NoAI framework aware of the fix in trunk which doesn't allow strings to be longer than N chars. You now get ERR_PRECONDITION_STRING_TOO_LONG instead. (Yexo)
11:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: consistancy: rename SetCompanyName to SetName (SetCompanyName warns about obselete function for now, update your AI ASAP)
11:18<TrueBrain>Rubidium: can I commit my patch? (if glx agrees it works ;))
11:18<Promille>ok. and these is not free i assume Yexo?
11:18<+glx>hmm I didn't try it yet
11:18<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: fine by me
11:18<Yexo>Promille: the original game is still not free
11:19<Promille>Ok :) Thanks for help yexo, yorick
11:19<+glx>TrueBrain: your patch doesn't have
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>i hate it... this reservation bug only ever happens while i am not watching
11:19<TrueBrain>glx: yeah, stupid 'svn diff' .. please rename the SVN one to ...
11:20<TrueBrain>Rubidium: and what about reverting r13792?
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11:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14223 /trunk/src/ (19 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make GetSprite aware of the 4 different types of sprites: fonts, recolour, mapgen and normal sprites.
11:21<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: yeah, revert it; fixing it so the real defaults are shown isn't trivial
11:22<TrueBrain>Rubidium: if possible at all .. as it requires part of the configure to run .. which depends on values you want to view via --help :p
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>hoo... it happened...
11:25<+glx>TrueBrain: hmm doesn't work very well
11:25<TrueBrain>glx: do tell :)
11:26<+glx> <-- but maybe I did something wrong ;)
11:29<TrueBrain>glx: no, you did not, I think .. one moment
11:29<TrueBrain>going to split this patch first ..
11:31<TrueBrain>glx: <- 'bundle' fix only
11:31<TrueBrain>(should work, but to be sure .. )
11:31<TrueBrain>(forgive 'svn' for being stupid)
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>my FF day is about 1.5 seconds... :(
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11:33<+glx> <-- cp test failed too btw ;)
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11:34<TrueBrain>glx: yes, and I know why, but first a simple fix .. then I can make the 'cp' fix in a more .. readable matter :)
11:34<+glx>fix 1 should work :)
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11:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14224 /trunk/ (5 files): -Fix: copy Makefile.bundle too to your working dir, so you don't need to run ./configure in the root of OpenTTD
11:35<+glx>hmm it doesn't reconfigure
11:37<+glx>it should have reconfigure as changed
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>YAAAY i can reproduce it!
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>only i have no trunk savegame ready, only a cargodest savegame
11:40<TrueBrain>glx: yeah, Makefile deps can be annoying :)
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11:46<TrueBrain>glx: and now I have it failing to detect changes in the config.cache.pwd .. sometimes .. :p
11:46<TrueBrain>ah, yes, of course
11:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14225 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix [configure]: make sure a dir exists if you want to write into it
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11:59<+glx>Reconfig done. Please re-execute make.
11:59<+glx>make: *** [config.cache] Error 2
11:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14226 /trunk/ (config.lib configure): -Revert r13792: 'configure --help' failed when for example gcc wasn't detected .. not really what you expect. By the lack of imagination, a revert will have to do for now.
11:59<+glx>not very logic
12:00<TrueBrain>nothing we can do about that
12:00<TrueBrain>the 'main' Makefile received dir-changes, and we can't reload them
12:00<TrueBrain>and if you don't give an exit code, most automated tools don't detect the problem, and think compiling is done
12:00<@Rubidium>can't you start a new instance of make?
12:00<TrueBrain>Rubidium: possible, but then it can happen that it keeps rerunning itself :p
12:01<+glx>I mean the error thing
12:01<TrueBrain>glx: it has to return an error-code
12:01<TrueBrain>(how else would your tool know it failed to compile?)
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12:01<TrueBrain>Rubidium: hmm, even worse: I have no way to know what you wanted to compile ;)
12:01<+glx>and with exit 0 ?
12:02<@Rubidium>peter1138, frosch123, SmatZ: any comments on ?
12:02<TrueBrain>glx: how would you detect that it failed to compile?
12:02<TrueBrain>make; print $?;
12:02<TrueBrain>gives no clue what so ever that 'make' faile din those cases
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12:02<TrueBrain>in fact, only a human is able to distinquish between failure and not
12:03<TrueBrain>'exit 0 is the same as: successful compile'
12:03<+glx>right, and that's bad for scripts :)
12:03-!-dfox [] has joined #openttd
12:03<TrueBrain>glx: exactly :)
12:04<TrueBrain>(and for any automated tool for that matter)
12:04<frosch123>Rubidium: recolour sprite conversion still accesses out of bounds elements
12:04<TrueBrain>Rubidium: any comments on my patch?
12:04<@Rubidium>you mean the fixes2?
12:04<@Rubidium>frosch123: hmm, that sucks :(
12:05<frosch123>Rubidium: e.g. i == 0 and num != 257
12:07-!-Mortal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:08<@Rubidium>why on i == 0?
12:08<frosch123>_palette_reverse_remap[i - 1]
12:08<@Rubidium>hmm, I must be blind ;)
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12:09<@Rubidium>the updated diff should work
12:09<frosch123>no, there are recolour sprites with num != 257, e.g. 17
12:10<@Rubidium>what goes wrong in those cases?
12:10<frosch123>maybe you access dest_tmp with indices > num
12:11<frosch123>btw. is i == 0 accessed anywhere?
12:12<@Rubidium>why do we even have 17 length recolours?
12:12<frosch123>ask CS
12:12<TrueBrain>glx: patch worked for the rest?
12:12<frosch123>the tile selection sprites use colors 0..15, and the red/blue recolorsprites in the dos grf only recolor those
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>why these prime numbers anyway?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>17 is prime, 257 is prime
12:13<frosch123>ask mr. /mrs. mersenne (don't know the spelling)
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>they aren't mersenne primes ;)
12:14<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, -1 :p
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>they are fermat primes
12:14<frosch123>the other are 2^n - 1 ?
12:14<@Rubidium>hmm, I'll look to those later ;)
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>mersenne primes are 2^n-1, fermat primes are 2^n+1
12:15<frosch123>always mix those up
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>of mersenne primes are more known ;)
12:16<Forked>hmm in cargodest.. Do passengers prefer the end station?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>it is easy to show that for mersenne primes, n must be prime, and for fermat primes, n must be a power of 2
12:16<Forked>the further we go, the better!
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12:18<Eddi|zuHause>but after 2^16+1 (=65537), no further fermat prime is known. and last time i checked, it was unknown if there is really no further fermat prime
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>for mersenne primes, a new one is found every once in a while... there are like 40 of them known
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12:19<frosch123>yeah, mersenne primes are always printed on wallpapers
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12:27<Tekky>is there a more simply way to list all subdirectories of the current directory in UNIX than by using "ls -F | grep /" ?
12:28<Tekky>I have the feeling that I am doing something needlessly complex for such a simple task :)
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14227 /trunk/ ( config.lib): -Fix [configure]: detect if we are in a new directory, and rerun configure in those cases. Should avoid confusion (idea by Eddi)
12:28<TrueBrain>Tekky: find -type d .
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12:30<Tekky>Thx, but I just wanted to find the immediate subdirectories of the current directory.
12:30<Tekky>I was unable to find such an option in the "ls" command.
12:30<TrueBrain>I never found it too ;)
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: ls -l | grep ^d
12:32<TrueBrain>Tekky: so that is why I started to use: find -type d -maxdepth 1, for cases like yours
12:32<Tekky>ah, thx, that works too :)
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12:34<Tekky>hmmm, I'm afraid even the MS-DOS shell is better in this respect, as it allows for "dir /ad" to accomplish this task :(
12:35<Tekky>but luckily UNIX is flexible enough for the workarounds that were mentioned.
12:35<TrueBrain>Tekky: write a patch for 'ls' :p
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12:38<Tekky>hehe, the problem would be standardizing it on all UNIX platforms :)
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12:46<Ammler>Tekky: create a alias
12:46<Ammler>something like ld :-)
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>err... :p
12:47<Ammler>hmm, could be something else... :P
12:47<Ammler>but if you don't need it, does it matter?
12:48<Tekky>I'd call it "lsd" :)
12:51<@Belugas>anyone can give me some synonyms for "Transport", something like "Delivery"... in the sens of Compane_name "something" ?
12:52<Kloopy>For automated company name generation?
12:52<Kloopy>"Travel" is an obvious one.
12:53<Kloopy>Nice idea.
12:53<@Belugas>"Transit" I like
12:53<@Belugas>Logistics? strange
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>in german i would say "Spedition", but i don't know how that translates to other languages
12:54<Kloopy>It's used lots in the UK, that one.
12:54<Ammler>our local transport company is called "Autobetrieb..."
12:55<nckomodo>small question, is it normal for trucks on the delivery end of a feeder service to make a negative profit upon delivery?
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>conveyance... i have never heard that word before
12:57<@Belugas>nckomodo, are you using transfers?
12:57<nckomodo>Belugas yeah, the trains are set to transfer and leave empty, or something to that effect
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause>nckomodo: that happens when the trains are much faster than the trucks, or the cargo is waiting a long time at the transfer station
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>then the estimation that the trains get paid is higher than the final delivery income
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>so the fraction that the trucks get is negative
12:59<nckomodo>ah, so I'm really only losing the income I shouldn't have made anyway?
12:59<nckomodo>or something to that effect
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>you still get income, but it gets distributed unevenly
13:01<Ammler>maybe the total income of the route should also be showed there
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>the trains get too much, and the trucks must balance that out
13:01<Ammler>2 numbers like with cargodest
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>that only solves half the problem
13:05<nckomodo>I heard some loud shuffling coming from above me, thought someone might've been trying to break in
13:05<nckomodo>turns out my cat was in the ceiling
13:06<nckomodo>scared up the when they delivered the new matress :s
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>ceiling cat is watching you masturbate?
13:07<nckomodo>ceiling cat is scared of people
13:08<nckomodo>oh holy god
13:08<nckomodo>a few of my aircraft are losing 1 mil a year
13:08<nckomodo>okay scratch that, they're all losing money
13:09<nckomodo>that might be why I'm only making 9 mil a year :x
13:10<Rexxars>1 mil a year? how is that even possible? lol
13:11<Rexxars>must play with some insane running costs
13:14<nckomodo>turns out concordes cost 2 mil a year to operate
13:14<nckomodo>quite possibly due to inflation
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13:20<nckomodo>jeez, all of these planes cost 1 mil a year to operate
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>inflation of income is lower than inflation of costs
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13:22<@peter1138>Inflation of cargo is "1%" lower than inflation of costs.
13:22<nckomodo>not entirely sure what that means, but this game has been running for quite awhile
13:22<hylje>eventually nothing has value and you lose
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13:23<@peter1138>This does not make sense, as if you set a lower rate of inflation, the difference between cargo and cost rates becomes greater.
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>lower inflation makes the game more difficult ;)
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>i always play with inflation off
13:24<hylje>it's a trap
13:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14228 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14209): double click on the 'last joined' server didn't work
13:25<TrueBrain>catch: pass
13:26*FauxFaux dislikes inflation too.
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13:34<+glx>TrueBrain: patch worked for mv (sorry I was away ;) )
13:34-!-Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggstry
13:36-!-Zahl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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13:37<+glx>TrueBrain: and DorpsGek failed for r14228
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13:43<TrueBrain>that is weird ..
13:44<TrueBrain>@openttd commit
13:44<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by smatz :: r14228 trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp (2008-09-02 17:24:46 UTC)
13:44<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Fix (r14209): double click on the 'last joined' server didn't work
13:44<TrueBrain>manual triggering did work ..
13:45<TrueBrain>well, suprise suprise .. out of memory
13:45<TrueBrain>this time 'trac' used up around 500 MiB of RAM
13:45<nckomodo>thats why my bus stops dont have an overflow of passengers
13:45<nckomodo>when I changed the road layout
13:46<nckomodo>it caused the city to practically eat itself
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13:49<dih>Brianetta, is there any specific time you would have time on your hands?
13:50<Brianetta>dih: I got some absolutely appalling family news today, so not soon.
13:50<dih>i am sorry to hear that
13:51<Brianetta>yeah, so was I
13:51*Brianetta has been making phone calls
13:51*dih hugs Brianetta
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14:02-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
14:02<Forked>heya Bjarni :)
14:03<@Bjarni>hello Forked
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14:03<@Bjarni>did you meet anymore imaginary friends? :)
14:03<dih>Phoenix_the_II, you are here :-)
14:04<Forked>imaginary? :\
14:04<hylje>but.. he's real!!
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14:06<Prof_Frink>None of you are real.
14:06<@Bjarni><Forked> imaginary? :\ <-- I take that as a no
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14:07<@Bjarni>or denial
14:07<Prof_Frink>No, dat's de river in Egypt.
14:07<Forked>Bjarni: pfft, go try x3 ;)
14:08<@Bjarni>I might
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14:09<Forked>I don't think the linux release of reunion is too far off.. and the new one for windows (terran conflict) is less than a month away :)
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14:11<yorick>TrueBrain: congratulations with your first trunk commit in ages :)
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14:13<@Bjarni>Forked: but 900 mb for a demo.... for windows only
14:13<@Bjarni>and I'm not too happy about paying for something totally unknown
14:13<Forked>Bjarni: still beta on linux :\
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14:14<@peter1138>I downloaded the demo of Crysis(sp?) It was something like 1.3GB.
14:14<Forked>900MB is not really alot these days.. with blazing superspeed internet
14:15<Eddi|zuHause><Prof_Frink> No, dat's de river in Egypt. <- most of the river isn't in egypt :p
14:15<@Bjarni>I meant more like it's for windows
14:16<@Bjarni>besides the shop will only sell me the windows version... and in German :/
14:16<TrueBrain>yorick: lol :) Tnx ;)
14:16<@Bjarni>no English version
14:16<Forked> has it for £8
14:16<yorick>TrueBrain: go keep the pattern up :-)
14:17<TrueBrain>today I downloaded a demo on my xbox of 1.2 GiB .. it gave me 90 (!) seconds of play-time, and then you had to restart ..
14:17<TrueBrain>yorick: _very_ doubtful :)
14:18<@Bjarni><Forked> has it for £8 <-- browsing the local stores I can get it for around £6.50 and free shipment
14:18<Forked>Bjarni: but yes, there are more germans than ..others.. that play that series :) same thing with settlers
14:18<@Bjarni>it's still windows though
14:18<Forked>there is a demo of x2 for linux
14:19<Forked>never tried x2 myself though, but some people prefer it over x3:reunion (and should I shut up about non-ttd games now?)
14:19<@Bjarni>if you use linux, that is
14:21<Forked>LGP are doing a good job, so I pre-ordered the special edition of x3:r, even though I don't have linux installed on any computer with a monitor right now :)
14:23<@peter1138>I tried XBTF. Is that related?
14:23<Forked>I think that is the first game in the series
14:24<@peter1138>I thought so too :)
14:24<Forked>I've only played X3: Reunion, and I love it
14:24<Forked>just ignore the storyline and build up an empire
14:24<Forked>they have a great community :)
14:26<@peter1138>I've seen some people complain that LGP keep on churning out old ancient stuff.
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>same thing with settlers <- that might be because it's a german game :p
14:26<Forked>eddi: so is the x-series afaik :p
14:26<Forked>still I loved settlers 2 and the 10th year edition of it
14:27<Ammler>best games are from germany or from non-america :-)
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>that'd include japan
14:27<Ammler>dunno those, FinalFantasy?
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>nintendo is from japan, i think
14:28*peter1138 ponders setting up his own hg repo...
14:28<Forked>peter1138: but yes, it's pretty old.. same with the x3:reunion they are hopefully soon releasing .. considering x3: terran conflict is less than a month away for win32
14:28<Ammler>SuperMario was nice too :-)
14:28<Forked>then again if game is really good, who cares when it's originally from
14:28<@peter1138>At least it's native, unlike Eve :o
14:28<Ammler>Forked: doesn't
14:29<@peter1138>Uncompressing X2 - The Threat DEMO............................................................................
14:29<Forked>Ammler: what?
14:29<@peter1138>Hmm, the middle button on this new mouse is a bit stiff :o
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>i only played settlers 1 and 2, nothing later
14:29<Forked>it turned to shit after 2
14:29<Ammler>Forked: doesn't matter, from where
14:30<TrueBrain>ever tried the open source settlers?
14:30<TrueBrain>now that version sucks ;)
14:30<Forked>Ammler: I'm still confused :)
14:31<dih>just running make on r14228 did not work, usually it ran ./configure automatically if it needed to, did not do that this time
14:31<dih>i.e. svn up -r 14228 && make
14:31<TrueBrain>dih: you should be more specific :)
14:32<dih>i had a checkout of openttd at r14215 (./configure'd and make'd)
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14:33<Ammler>Forked: doesn't matter, either, the topic is spam :-)
14:33<dih>svn up -r 14228 && make <- that would fail, and i had to run ./configure again
14:33<@peter1138>Hmm, it got my throttle wrong :o
14:33<dih>before, make detected if it had to run ./configure and reconfigured using the last settings
14:33<TrueBrain>dih: you should be more specific :)
14:33*dih slaps TrueBrain
14:33<TrueBrain>'fail' is such a random 'report'
14:33<@peter1138>Also, does anyone have a /usr/lib32/alsa-lib/
14:33<Forked>Ammler: noted :)
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14:34<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: make fails as Makefile.bundle is missing
14:34<TrueBrain>Rubidium: haha, of course :)
14:35<TrueBrain>see dih, such reports _are_ useful, just saying: 'fail', doesn't help anyone
14:35<TrueBrain>Rubidium: well, not much we can do about that.. :)
14:36<@peter1138>Once ./configure is run once, it should be fine, right?
14:36<dih>that is what i thought, at least with openttd
14:36<@peter1138>dih, I mean since the changes.
14:36<dih>and make reran ./configure using the old ./configure options if it needed to
14:36<dih>peter1138, yes
14:37<@peter1138>So what's the problem?
14:37<dih>it was an automated process and i did not know what was causing the failure
14:37<@peter1138>Now you do.
14:37<dih>and was hoping you could catch the situation in the make file and run ./configure the next time automatically
14:38<@peter1138>Not worth it.
14:38<dih>all i wanted to hear ;-)
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14229 /trunk/ (7 files in 4 dirs):
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Feature: allow overriding the palette of the base GRFs. This way you can play
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: with NewGRFs made for the Windows palette with the DOS palettes base GRFs (and
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vice versa). Note that for this to work correctly ALL NewGRFs must use the same
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: palette; mix and match is not yet supported.
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14:50<yorick>*yet* :)
14:51-!-Gekz [] has joined #openttd
14:53<Wolf01>nice feature Rubidium :D
14:55<@peter1138>Yeah, your DOS-desyncer should be okay now :)
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15:07<+glx><dih> and make reran ./configure using the old ./configure options if it needed to <-- sh config.cache ;)
15:07<dih>thanks :-)
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15:22<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> Also, does anyone have a /usr/lib32/alsa-lib/ <- i only have "oss", "pulse", "upmix" and "vdownmix", not "jack"
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>where s/32//
15:26<ccfreak2k>ccfreak2k@helios:/usr/lib/alsa-lib$ ls
15:26<ccfreak2k>** smixer/
15:27<Ammler>oh, it was a quote :-)
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15:34<Eddi|zuHause>alsa-plugins-jack 1.0.16-57.1
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15:41<XeryusTC>hmm, openttd opens with the following error: "Failed to find a graphics set. Please aquire a graphics set for OpenTTD."
15:41<XeryusTC>even though I have all the default graphics in the data dir
15:41<yorick>XeryusTC: on windows?
15:41<XeryusTC>yorick: yes
15:42<Noldo>XeryusTC: you need some kind of metadata file
15:42<yorick>try opening the obg files and getting them proper newlines
15:42<XeryusTC>why aren't they using svn:eol-native then?
15:43<XeryusTC>or whatever the name of that setting is
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15:45<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: they are eol-native
15:46<XeryusTC>must be hg then or sth :P
15:46<@Rubidium>yes, hg doesn't have said concept
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15:47<@Rubidium>and MS apparantly thought it would be useful to increment the "I've seen a '\r'"-counter everytime it sees a '\n' (even when there's no '\r' before the '\n') since MSVC 8
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>hm... merging the timetable changes with daylength is causing headaches
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15:50<Eddi|zuHause>anyone cared to report that bug to microsoft?
15:52<Wolf01>[21:49:37] <Eddi|zuHause> hm... merging the timetable changes with daylength is causing headaches <- oh, I'm happy I'm not the only people which had headaches with daylength :D
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15:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, not headaches because it's so complicated, but headaches because it's so annoying
16:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14230 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp table/palette_convert.h): -Codechange: Simplify MapDOSColour() using the new stuff.
16:02<@Belugas>that's the price of too much realism in the game ^_^
16:02*Belugas runs away laughing
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16:03<Eddi|zuHause>daylength has absolutely _nothing_ to do with realism
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the trouble is that huge chunks of the timetable patch fail, because one instance of s/DAY_TICKS/DayLength()/
16:07<@Rubidium>but it's more realistic if a day takes a day
16:08<frosch123>yup, ottd should become a realtime game
16:08<Tim>But then a train can travel a million times around the world in just one day, which is not too realistic either :D
16:09<frosch123>just add support for 40K x 20K maps
16:09<frosch123>didn't someone said one tile is 1km
16:10<@Rubidium>peter1138: <- should be enough, right?
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're mixing stuff up, frosch123 ;)
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause>1 tile is 50m (if you count from the length of a passenger wagon ;))
16:11<+glx><@Rubidium> yes, hg doesn't have said concept <-- hg has a setting to autoconvert line endings
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>or more like 20m if you count from its width ;)
16:11<@Rubidium>glx: but that isn't on a file-by-file basis
16:11<blathijs>Oh man, not the scale discussion again... :-p
16:12<@Rubidium>it's very easy... in this world 10 m = 50 m = 500 m = 686 km
16:12<+glx>indeed it's all or nothing, but it works quite well
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16:14<Ammler>Belugas: daylength is not for realism, it is for enjoying openttd even longer
16:14<Ammler>or do you mean the timetable?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>the timetable is not for realism either, it's for efficiency
16:15<@Belugas>why do people think i'm always serious :S
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think anyone took you seriously ;)
16:17<@Belugas>yup.. i'm a joke!
16:17<Ammler>well, I do, :-)
16:17<Noldo>Belugas: where?
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16:18*Ammler thinks about changing to dos with the GRFPack now...
16:18<Ammler>is it worth?
16:19<Ammler>how many GRFs do you use the "dosonly" colors?
16:19<@Rubidium>all mb's?
16:19-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:20<Ammler>hmm, then I will ask him :-)
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... it got impressingly far with compiling...
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>all the way to timetable_gui.cpp :p
16:22<Marine>guys, if i add 2 engines onto a train does it get more power?
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16:24<Eddi|zuHause>/home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTDx/paxdest/src/timetable_gui.cpp:699: warning: ‘void ChangeTimetableCallback(Window*, uint32)’ defined but not used <-- is that normal or something i screwed up?
16:24<frosch123>should be used in some DoCommandP
16:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14231 /trunk/src/ini.cpp: -Fix: Windows binaries not able to read non-windows newlines ini files. For more detail read the 'attached' diff.
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>hm... seems i forgot a chunk
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16:30<Wolf01>ehm, wrong smiley
16:30<@Bjarni>is it a smiley?
16:30<@Bjarni>some people might think it's something else
16:30<Wolf01>no, it's not
16:30*Celestar requests a topic change
16:30*Bjarni censors Wolf01
16:31<frosch123>Celestar: 'No adult-only smilies' ?
16:31-!-Bjarni changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.2 | Website: * (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | We Love YAPP | 8=D not allowed
16:31<@Bjarni>that should do it
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>that's going to be effective ;)
16:32<Wolf01>really meaningful
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>maybe someone finally will read the topic after all ;)
16:32<@Bjarni>it's do direct that nobody should be able to misunderstand it
16:33-!-Bjarni changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.2 | Website: * (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | We Love YAPP
16:33*Bjarni just realised something
16:33<Ammler>what does "8=D" mean?
16:33<@Bjarni>I changed the channel to be a girl only channel >_<
16:33<@Bjarni>which in our case would be an empty channel
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like #lesbians?
16:34<@Bjarni>we would have to move to #lesbians
16:35<Celestar>. . .
16:35<@Bjarni>that would really ruin our reputation as a game for all ages
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>wait... nothing of that is my fault...
16:36<Ammler>shouldn't be the toyland for girls
16:37<Vikthor>Ammler: Sure if you mean 5 years old girls and maybe not even them
16:41<@Bjarni>Vikthor: my sister liked Toyland
16:41<Celestar>maybe we could make a ECS for girls ... hair products, body lotion ....
16:41<@Rubidium>peter1138: should OpenTTD warn about action 0 feature 11 (B) not being implemented?
16:41<@Bjarni>then she turned 8 or 9 or something and she thought it became too childish
16:41<Vikthor>ok make it 8 then
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>something is horribly screwing up when resizing the timetable window...
16:42<@Bjarni> <Celestar> maybe we could make a ECS for girls ... hair products, body lotion .... <--- isn't that a bit sexist?
16:43<@Bjarni>I mean it's not like all girls use stuff like that and some guys use it
16:43<@Bjarni>but you appear to be creating a stereotype girl
16:43<@peter1138>Rubidium, no, but it has done for ages ;)
16:43<Celestar>Bjarni: no. it's VERY sexist :P
16:43<@Bjarni>girls do makeup and guys do serious stuff like construction materials
16:44<@peter1138>God this channel turns to crap when Bjarni's around.
16:44*frosch123 leaves before the topic switches again to trains, depots and cloning
16:44<@Bjarni>I'm not the only one who noticed that you talk garbage to me
16:44<@Rubidium>night frosch123?
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16:44<@Bjarni>ok, let's talk about cloning trains in depots
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>who was that braniac who put TIMETABLE_SAVELOAD_VERSION into openttd.h
16:45<@Bjarni>svn blame
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: it's not in svn
16:45<@Bjarni>then I can't tell you
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's from Maedrhos' old timetable patch, i think
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>but it is only used in 2 places
16:46<@Bjarni>then I don't care... we didn't accept it :P
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>it was "not finished", not "not accepted"
16:47<@Bjarni>whatever... it didn't get into something we support
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember any discussion even about considering this
16:47<@peter1138>Ah, bollocks, I just reverted the wrong file :o
16:48<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> but it is only used in 2 places <-- some stuff in stdafx.h isn't really used in that many files
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: but nobody really changes it either
16:48<@Bjarni>like hardware endian conversion (in macos.h, which is included in stdafx.h). I think it's more or less only used in load/save
16:49<@Bjarni>but I didn't change it after I committed it ages ago
16:50<@Bjarni>I recall trying some trial and error in changing openttd.h on my 800 MHz system >_<
16:51<@Bjarni>did it twice or so and then I decided to do it the old fashioned way and do more than just regular proof reading
16:52<@Bjarni>it took like 3-4 minutes or so to make a complete recompile in debug mode
16:52<@Bjarni>twice that time for a release build
16:52<Eddi|zuHause> /* reserve extra space in savegame here. (currently 10 bytes) */
16:52<Eddi|zuHause> SLE_CONDNULL(10, 2, SL_MAX_VERSION),
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>what's that useful for?
16:53<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: some ludde optimisation... nobody else could see the great idea in it and we removed it
16:53<@Bjarni>we still have to have a few lines like that in order to load old savegames
16:54<@Bjarni>I think the idea was that you could save more data without altering the savegame structure if you could accept the value to be 0 when loading an old savegame
16:54<@Rubidium>peter1138: you want to get out-of-memory because of the size of the error message?
16:55<@Rubidium>you're storing so many error messages now (I reckon a DS can't handle it)
16:56<@Rubidium>I'd remove the commented out few lines of code of @@ -122,12 +124,20
16:56<@peter1138>Just did.
16:56<@peter1138>What does a DS have to do with GRF errors?
16:57<@Rubidium>not much
16:57<@peter1138>(If the DS can't cope with a couple of extra errors, it can't cope with loading GRFs)
16:57<@Rubidium>just wondering why it's useful to show many errors
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>same as why c compilers don't stop at the first error
16:58<@Rubidium>I'm usually: gcc only tell me the root of the error, not all the crap that the (small) mistake caused
16:58<Ammler>you could solve all conflcts at once, else you have to apply and check again...
16:59<@Rubidium>peter1138: the rest looks ok
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17:09<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: about the "extra space", sometimes they are used to store things without increasing savegame revision
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17:11<Ammler>Rubidium: the windows support for those obg files seems ugly. Thought about writing those at first start like the cfg?
17:11<@Rubidium>Ammler: ugly in what way?
17:11<@peter1138>ftell() being shit is not our fault.
17:11<Ammler>you have to make "workarounds" :-)
17:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14232 /trunk/src/core/bitmath_func.hpp: -Codechange: use builtin for byte swapping for gcc >= 4.3
17:12<Ammler>no offense to you, just a thought..
17:12<@Rubidium>Ammler: workarounds like?
17:13<Ammler>well, forget it, it just looked, like you had additional work just for windows...
17:13<@peter1138>There is always additional work just for Windows.
17:13<+glx>that's not new :)
17:14<@peter1138>SmatZ, is that faster, or just doing it because it's there?
17:14<+glx>the comment says it's faster
17:14<SmatZ>peter1138: bswap is a single instruction
17:14<@peter1138>So is BSWAP32() ;)
17:15<SmatZ>do you think it was compiled as single instruction before?
17:15<@Bjarni>but how many cycles will this instruction use? :)
17:15<@peter1138>SmatZ, I'm thinking of constants.
17:15<SmatZ>eg. gcc saw that "((x >> 24) & 0xFF) | ((x >> 8) & 0xFF00) | ((x << 8) & 0xFF0000) | ((x << 24) & 0xFF000000)" does ...
17:15<SmatZ>ah ok :)
17:15<@Bjarni>I think it will produce the same result for constants
17:16<@Bjarni>but I think it can improve the speed if the conversion is done at runtime (like when saving)
17:16<@Bjarni>but savegames are LE, meaning it will not matter for x86 systems
17:16<@Bjarni>it will affect SPARC and PPC though
17:17<+glx>[16:22:50] <Celestar> glx: could you please check whether there is some error in cargopacket.cpp:294 ? <-- there is a warning indeed :)
17:17<@Rubidium>peter1138: <- that was what you intended with that "Toggle palette"-button, right?
17:17<@peter1138>Bjarni, BSWAP32() has pretty much nothing to do with endianness.
17:18<@Bjarni>I know
17:18<@peter1138>Rubidium, what toggle palette button?
17:19<@Bjarni>but we use it to convert from the CPU endianess to the savegame endianess (LE)
17:19<@Bjarni>since we convert to and from LE, this function will not be called on LE systems
17:19<@Bjarni>it will be called on BE systems
17:19<SmatZ>Bjarni: savegames are BE
17:19<@peter1138>In places. it is in other place.s
17:20<@Bjarni><SmatZ> Bjarni: savegames are BE <-- since when. I remember that it was LE and didn't work on BE in the beginning
17:20<SmatZ>but byte swapping is not done in the saveload code...
17:20<@Rubidium>peter1138: oh, it was Brianetta who suggested it ;)
17:20<@Rubidium>many hours ago
17:20<SmatZ> int x = SlReadByte() << 8;
17:20<SmatZ> return x | SlReadByte();
17:20<SmatZ>first is read more significant byte
17:20<@peter1138>If you're toggling the palette, don't you need to save that in the config file/preset?
17:20<SmatZ>unless SlReadByte() reads data backwards
17:21<@Bjarni>so we stopped converting endianess at runtime?
17:21<@peter1138>Yeah, that and NewGRF is all done as byte streams.
17:22<@Rubidium>peter1138: saving that is tricky at best and doesn't "teach" people to not use many differently paletted NewGRFs.
17:22<@Bjarni>then this the latter commit shouldn't change the binary at all
17:22<@Bjarni>and my optimisation of BE OSX isn't used anymore either
17:23<@Bjarni>however I see no reason to clear the optimised code. For all we know we end up having to convert something at runtime again some day
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17:24<Ammler>Rubidium: would it not be best, just to decide to use only one palette anymore. As you can use it now with both original types?
17:24<Ammler>(for NewGRFS)
17:25<Celestar>gotta go
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17:25<@Rubidium>why force the palette conversion to all the Windows-palette users?
17:25<@Rubidium>the palette conversion is not free or so
17:26<Ammler>not free means costs of calculation and memory?
17:26<@peter1138>Bjarni, maybe you should read thread the code again to catch up on all that you miss.
17:26<@Rubidium>Ammler: yes, every time a sprite is read from the file
17:26<@peter1138>Because BSWAP32() is definitely used, and any changes to it definitely have an affect.
17:28<@peter1138>Also, src/screenshot.cpp:249 is fishy.
17:29<@peter1138>We removed something similar from src/spriteloader/png.cpp because it was wrong.
17:29<@peter1138>Or rather, unnecessary.
17:29<@peter1138>Or something.
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17:31<@Bjarni>looks like newgrf*.cpp uses BSWAP32. You expect me to read though all your changes to those files?
17:31*Bjarni think he should start by understanding how to actually use grfcodec
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17:47<Ammler>do I make it right, I started openttd with -I dos and -i1 for win newgrfs
17:47<Ammler>everything looks nice :-)
17:48<Ammler>can I force the client to start with -i1?
17:48<Ammler>as MP server...
17:49<Ammler>the server admin knows, which palette his GRFs has, so it could be i.e. in the save maybe?
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17:51<Ammler>(or is there another way to tell it the client?)
17:52<@peter1138>-I original_dos, isn't it?
17:52<Ammler>peter1138: yep, I made a short
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, instead of checking (grfid, md5), you should check (grfid, md5, palette)
17:54<Ammler>well, you could expect the server is using the same palette for all
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>well, all or nothing, that's for sure
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>but that might also change in the future
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21:46<@Belugas>ignoring = CargoChangeInfo(index, numinfo, prop, &buf, bufend - buf);
21:46<@Belugas>should not it be someting like
21:47<@Belugas>ignoring = CargoChangeInfo(index, numinfo, prop, &buf, bufend - buf) != CIR_SUCCESS; ?
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22:07<+glx>Belugas: [17:05:51] <@peter1138> glx, I think more changes are necessary there. That fix the warning, and work the same way it used to, but not really work properly.
22:10<@Belugas>not a problem, it's just a warning anyway :)
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22:20<Tekky>did the original Transport Tycoon Deluxe feature inflation or was that a feature added later by TTDPatch/OpenTTD?
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22:51<DaleStan>Tekky: Inflation is a TTD original.
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 03 00:00:20 2008