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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-09-26

---Logopened Fri Sep 26 00:00:26 2008
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02:31<@peter1138>Silly george.
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02:43<Forked>happy happy happy :D
02:44<@peter1138>Who is?
02:45<Forked>I am
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02:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14401 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11724): Don't check articulated parts or rear multihead parts for callback 1D when moving a chain of wagons.
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03:35<Eddi|zuHause>i can't imagine that this phrase is even pronounceable ;)
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04:47<petererer>Hostname: lachesis - OS: Linux 2.6.26-1-686/i686 - CPU: 2 x Intel(R) Xeon(TM) (2399.425 MHz) - Processes: 61 - Uptime: 17h 26m - Load Average: 0.11 - Memory Usage: 69.32MB/3996.20MB (1.73%) - Disk Usage: 1.06GB/76.55GB (1.38%) - Network Traffic (eth0): 301.06MB In/98.95MB Out
04:47<petererer>Hee, what a silly script.
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04:56<petererer>Yes, it's irssi.
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i just found that out already ;)
04:59<petererer>Which, of course, means I had to know exactly what that script was for ;)
04:59<petererer>Hmm, let's see.
04:59<@peter1138>Hostname: svn - OS: Linux 2.6.18-6-686/i686 - CPU: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 (1494.582 MHz) - Processes: 87 - Uptime: 2d 21h 1m - Load Average: 0.00 - Memory Usage: 285.54MB/504.76MB (56.57%) - Disk Usage: 9.46GB/14.32GB (66.03%) - Network Traffic (eth4): 70.72MB In/89.97MB Out
05:00<petererer>And that is enough of that.
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05:16<Forked>good morning :)
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06:38<Tekky>6 weeks ago, I started a poll concerning whether and how YAPP signals should be renamed. I have now started a runoff poll in the following forum thread:
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07:04<petererer>35% vs 24% is not conclusive?
07:05<helb_>Is it possible to delete all industries on map at once? (in scenario editor)
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07:39<@Celestar>petererer: <= how's that?
07:40<petererer>Some compilers do not like foo::bar::baz
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07:41<@Celestar>I haven't managed to encouter one yet :P
07:41<@Celestar>maybe TrueBrain should test this diff on Morphos
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07:42<Yexo>Celestar: iirc gcc 2.95 gave problems with yapf code that did that
07:42<@Celestar>petererer: and, there is foo::bar::baz even before that diff, isn't there?
07:43<petererer>I don't know :)
07:43<@Celestar>we can still put using namespace RoutingBase_t; somewhere (=
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07:44<Yexo>petererer == peter1138 ?
07:45<@Celestar>no. petererer != peter1138, but *petererer == *peter1138 :P
07:47<Yexo>what is the current status of cargodest? does it need more testing or just codereview?
07:49<@Celestar>Yexo: tests have been very successful
07:50<Yexo>good to hear that :)
07:50<@Celestar>so quite a bit of review needs to be done
07:50*petererer clones the repo on to his new server.
07:51<jpm>Yeah, It would be very nice to have cargodest in trunk soon...
07:51<@Celestar>In December, I'll possibly work on cargodest v2 ;)
07:54<@SmatZ>cargodest v2?
07:55<@Rubidium>SmatZ: yeah, something needs to be rewritten a few times before it can go in trunk
07:57<@SmatZ>now that's responsible attitude!
07:58*SpComb had lots of desynchs with cargodest last time he played it
07:58<SpComb>but it might have had something to do with using a savegame from an older version of it with a newer version
07:58<@Celestar>SpComb: when was that?
07:59<SpComb>a fair while ago
07:59<SpComb>several weeks
08:01<@Celestar>I love this place:
08:02<Tefad>google maps not gooed enough for you?
08:03<Tefad>heh, is that a target store
08:03<@Celestar>Google Maps is outdated :D
08:04<@Celestar>9L/27R is mostly missing :)
08:05<@Celestar>but it still is a messy layout, innit :P
08:09<petererer>It's just an airport :p
08:10<@Celestar>one with 8 runways
08:10<Brianetta>I counted 14
08:10*Brianetta looks for the other strip
08:11<@Celestar>Brianetta: one is temporarily decomissioned, the other not yet commissioned (=
08:12<Brianetta>I see 7
08:12<Brianetta>which is 14 of you count both directions
08:12<@Celestar>yeah, 18/36 is not easy to identify as an (ex-)runway
08:12<Brianetta>Whereis it?
08:12<Brianetta>or, which way is north?
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08:13<@Celestar>north is where the new runway is (bottom right). When you follow the new taxiway (bottom center) of the new runway, this leads into what was 18/36
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08:13<Brianetta>shit yeah
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08:14<Brianetta>I totally missed that
08:14<petererer>Right through the middle.
08:14<@Celestar>yeah, it's currently twy Whiskey-Tango
08:14<Brianetta>It's nowhere near as long as it was
08:14<Brianetta>somebody built a terminal on it
08:14<@Celestar>this will be closed, two others will be closed and three more will be built
08:15<@Celestar>because this is currently a Spaghetti-layout (=
08:16<Brianetta>One of those runways could take the Shuttle
08:16<@Celestar>the big one is 13.000x200 ft
08:16<fjb>Hm, what happened to the new airports branch? :-)
08:16<@Celestar>or almost 4000x60m
08:20*petererer ponders popping out to get some lunch.
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08:25<@Celestar>Q3A on nightmare is .. hard :P
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08:26<Chrill>somebody come play @ Brianetta's standard !! :O
08:26<Brianetta>Somebody is.
08:28<Chrill>yes, but i want someone to play with :P
08:28<Chrill>multiplayer alone is so disencouraging :P
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08:30<Brianetta>not to mention is pisses of the players who only get ten years with their companies
08:30<sexten>you've probably heard this question before, but I couldn't find an answer to it. If you play in a network game as i.e. Player 7 and save the game. Then you later on want to load the game and play on as Player 7, but you can't because you're automatically set to Player 1. How do you get to play as Player 7?:)
08:31<Brianetta>opens the cheat window
08:31<Brianetta>which lets you switch player
08:32<sexten>heh, that command opened the control center of my graphic card:p
08:32<Brianetta>How useful.
08:32<Yexo>try ctrl+win+alt+c
08:33<sexten>there we go. thanks a lot Brianetta & Yexo:)
08:36<Tekky>peterer: 35% is still quite far away from 50% :) Many people who voted for renaming YAPP "advanced signals" to something completely different may now want to vote for "PBS signals" or may want to vote to not change the name at all......
08:37<Tekky>However, I do hope that "path signals" wins the poll :)
08:38<sexten>one more n00b question. When playing a game and in the 50s, you get the "old style" signals when building train tracks, however if you hold the Ctrl button down while building you get the "modern" signals. Is there any way to make the modern signals default? Or is it automatic after a given year?
08:39<Tekky>sexten: in the patch settings, you can set the year from when on to build modern signals. I set this to year 0 in order to always build them.
08:39<sexten>I see, thanks again:) it's a little weird the modern signals is always available though
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08:40<Tekky>however, this only works with games with a year > 0. If you are playing a game in the Roman Empire with horse trains, then this won't work :) But this should not matter, as horse trains did not use signals, as far as I know :) And I think the Roman Empire didn't even have any horse trains, yet :)
08:41<sexten>perhaps an idea for OpenTTD B.C.?
08:43<Tekky>B.C. = Before Christ, which means a year number below 0.
08:43<hylje>i'm all for a all-times-TTD
08:43<Chrill>why'd openttd hit BC? :P
08:44<hylje>carriages and ships in the ancient times, bigger carriages and bigger ships later
08:44<@Celestar>Tekky: there is no year 0
08:44<Tekky>yes, an Age of Empires style of transportation game, where you start in the stone age, that would be cool :)
08:44<@Celestar>Tekky: only 1 BC and 1AD
08:44<Chrill>there are plans for openttd games running over 2500 years, starting BC and ending.. now?
08:44<hylje>i'd start out from classical times
08:44<hylje>because people and stuff didn't move about so much earlier
08:46<@Celestar>people didn't move much before the invention of railways ...
08:46<hylje>there was trade in the classical times and onward
08:47<Tekky>actually, it may be quite a nice idea for a game, that you are in charge of doing all the transport for a whole Civilization. If you don't take care of transporting any goods, the Civilization will not be able to expand and will die of hunger :)
08:48<hylje>maybe stuff would work regardless of the transport manager
08:48<hylje>but just slow
08:48<hylje>you'd set up trade and supply chains
08:49<Tekky>in the stone age, you employ human haulers, later you emply humans with wooden carts, later you emply horse wagons, until you can finally build trains :)
08:49<Tekky>emply = employ
08:50<hylje>don't forget ships
08:50<@Celestar>Tekky: yeah, let's write a new game (=
08:50<Tekky>hehe :)
08:50<hylje>the game will work nearly as it is
08:50<hylje>all that stuff above is largely newgrf
08:51<Tekky>unfortunately, there is not much development going on anymore with Transport Empire......
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08:54<Tekky>In the next 5 years, OpenTTD will have to be largely rewritten anyway for use of multiple cores. Therefore, we can also think about new features to be added while doing the rewrite :)
08:55<hylje>lifting of restrictions rather than features
08:55<Chrill>Brianetta said my name in #tycoon half an hour ago, what'd he want? :P
08:55<sexten>how big maps are you planning on playing/making that needs multi-cores?:)
08:55<hylje>is what makes this thing possible
08:55<FauxFaux>sexten: Why have a finite size map?
08:56<@Celestar>Tekky: there is no need to rewrite the whole game
08:56<Tekky>Celestar: You are saying that implementing multiprocessor support does not require a major rewrite?
08:57<@Celestar>Tekky: depends
08:58<Tekky>sexten: It is not so much the size of the map, but rather the number of vehicles and the complexity of the rail network.
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09:05<@Celestar>Tekky: the first question is what to multithread
09:05<@Celestar>one *might* be able to run the blitter in a separate thread, but I'm not sure.
09:05<sexten>1 core per train?:)
09:06<@Celestar>1 core system, 1 core GUI, 1 core AI ...
09:06<Tekky>Celestar: In 10 years, I will be having 16 cores. Your suggestion may be useful for computers with two cores but not more.
09:06<@Rubidium>oh no... not again the "we must multicore" discussion...
09:07<@Celestar>Rubidium: it keeps popping up, doesn't it?
09:07<ln>Tekky: 16 cores will be soooo little in 10 years.
09:07<petererer>13:30 < Brianetta> not to mention is pisses of the players who only get ten years with their companies
09:07<petererer>You could always set min_players to 2, or somesuch.
09:07<Brianetta>I could
09:07<@Celestar>Rubidium: <= is this about what you had in mind (first step)
09:08<Chrill>Brianetta Brianetta Brianetta
09:08<Brianetta>Chrill Chrill Chrill
09:08<Chrill>you wanted me in #tycoon earlier? :P
09:08<Chrill>also, have you had time to check my scenario?
09:08<Brianetta>I *greeted* you on #tycoon earlier.
09:08<Brianetta>The scenario's still in my inbox
09:09<@Rubidium>Celestar: yes, that's what I had in mind
09:09<@Celestar>Rubidium: ok then (=
09:10<@Celestar>TrueBrain: <= please test this diff against cargodest on morphos and tell me if gcc is happy with it (=
09:10<Tekky>if the entire game is made so that everything is processed by 16 cores, then the state of the map array is not allowed to change within the same tick, otherwise race conditions will be introduced. Therefore, all changes to the map array within the same tick will have to be recorded seperately and applied at the end of the tick. This would require a major rewrite.
09:10<@Rubidium>a::b::c fails on gcc-too-old-but-morphos-developers-have-not-bothered-about-using-one-that-actually-works
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09:11<@Celestar>Rubidium: a::b::c was in the code before that diff and it did work on Morphos
09:12<@Celestar>Tekky: er .. assuming the state of one tile doesn't affect the state of another tile, it's easy.
09:12<@Rubidium>the current CF doesn't compile for morphos, so it hasn't been tested for weeks
09:13<@Rubidium>Tekky: please prove that your system is faster than just not doing the stuff on multiple cores
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09:13<petererer>And it wouldn't work anyway.
09:13<@Rubidium>as your are going to waste enormous amounts of CPU in mutexes/semaphores and other thread scheduling stuff
09:14<+glx>Celestar: maybe ask SmatZ to test it win gcc 2.95
09:14<@Celestar>SmatZ: ping (=
09:15<@Celestar>Tekky: the thing is, in a large game, the stuff handling the tiles doesn't eat a lot of CPU
09:15<@peter1138>Ah, cargodest compiled :D
09:15<@Celestar>peter1138: (=
09:15<@peter1138>Helped to install boost ;)
09:16<@peter1138>Ah, yes, my hg does not support hg branch... Pompiedom
09:16<@peter1138>Sever version: h1b7af927-Merc
09:17<@SmatZ>Celestar: hello
09:17*SmatZ installs boost on his gcc2.95 chroot...
09:18<@Celestar>SmatZ: <= please test this diff against cargodest on gcc 2.95.3
09:18<@Celestar>Tekky: you will never have "the entire game made so that everything is processed by 16 cores"
09:18<Tekky>Rubidium: I agree with your concerns that this wouldn't be very beneficial with only two cores, because the amount of overhead produced make the code a lot more complex, and not necessarily faster. However, the trend in the CPU market is clearly going towards multi-cores rather than faster cores, so sooner or later, OpenTTD will have to offer support for multiple cores.
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09:19<@Celestar>Tekky: there are always things that are inherently serial
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09:19<@Celestar>hence n cores will never offer the same benefit as a core that is n times faster (see Amdahl's law)
09:20<+glx>and OpenTTD is not easy to split in multiple threads
09:20<@Celestar>btw: in about 5 years time, we might have reverse Hyperthreading or kernel-based multithreading so that "programming for multiple cores" might be obsolete.
09:20<+glx>as everything is interdependant
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09:26<Tekky>Celestar: Well, let's take pathfinding, for example. In most cases, it is sufficient that a train's pathfinder uses the map array as it was at the start of the tick and 16 cores could then independantly of each other calculate paths for all trains. Then, at the end of the tick, all thread's changes to the map array are commited to the map array and checked for conflicts. Only the rare cases...
09:26<Tekky>...where a conflict arises would have to be resolved in a serial manner.
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09:28<petererer>Pathfinding depends on other vehicle movements.
09:28<@Celestar>Tekky: the correct way to do this is to First handle all the map stuff and run the loops, and after this is finished, run the vehicle stuff.
09:28<@Celestar>the problem is vehicle-vehicle depedence
09:28<@Celestar>however, aircraft and ships do not depend on other vehicles, so they could be offloaded (=
09:28<Tekky>I think I once read that most CPU usage of OpenTTD is caused by actually moving the trains every tick. Most of the train moves do not conflict with each other in the same tick, so 16 cores could move trains independantly of each other, as long as they check for conflicts afterwards, to prevent desyncs.
09:29<petererer>Aircraft pathfinding is not such a huge bottleneck.
09:29<@Celestar>peter1138: not really (=
09:30<@Celestar>Tekky: have you ever looked at a profile of a typical game?
09:30<petererer>Personally I think it's pointless to even bother with the discussion :)
09:30<@Celestar>peter1138: but we could put DrawCatenaryRailway into a separate thread. That one is slow :P
09:30<petererer>Or make it more efficient.
09:31<Tekky>Celestar: I read a forum thread where KUDr and other people were talking about the output of a profiler used on OpenTTD.
09:31<@Celestar>petererer: it's not that I haven't tried to :P
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09:32<@Celestar>Tekky: do you experience performance problems anywhere?
09:32<Brianetta>I think aircraft paths should have random turns in them. So, instead of flying floor(dX-dY),floor(dY-dX) then min(dX),min(dY) they'd take any pseudo-random path of the same length.
09:33<@Celestar>Brianetta: yeah because aircraft tend to zig-zag around IRL? :P
09:33<Brianetta>Celestar: They bloody should (:
09:33<petererer>I'd like 'smooth' cornering ;)
09:33<@Celestar>Brianetta: why?
09:34<petererer>Especially when reaching an airport...
09:34<@Celestar>petererer: yeah, but then we need more sprites (=
09:34<petererer>Those 270 degree turns are silly.
09:34<petererer>Not that smooth :p
09:34<@Celestar>petererer: I've already smoothend out the city airport, haven't I?
09:35<Tekky>Celestar: yes, I have had serious performance problems with YAPP. A stopped train waiting in front of a red YAPP signal used to check once every tick for a new path, which caused big problems on networks with many waiting trains. Now, it only checks every 40 ticks for a new path, which is a significant improvement, but this performance issue is still there.....
09:36<@Celestar>Tekky: then the correct way to solve the problem is to use a better algorithm, not to throw more cores at the problem?
09:37<Brianetta>Celestar: To make flights more fun
09:38<@Celestar>Brianetta: I know enough people who turn green on a straight-and-level flight.
09:38<Tekky>Celestar: Yes, I agree with you that this could be implemented better. Instead of using a polling algorith, callbacks could be used when a path becomes free.
09:38<@Celestar>heh I've seen people turn green in a tilting ICE (=
09:38<@Celestar>only last week that was
09:39<@Celestar>Leipzig-Nuremburg is a very curvy route, we had 20 minutes of delay so the driver was in a hurry and the train tilts 8° in each direction
09:39<Brianetta>Stupid tilting trains should perfectly cancel all lateral forces
09:39<Brianetta>This weak-minded fools who think this makes them sick should walk.
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09:40<@Celestar>Brianetta: nope. High-Speed Tracks should be built so that they cancel all lateral forces.
09:40<Brianetta>Celestar: Only if they can do it regardless of the train's speed.
09:40<+glx>vertical tracks in curves ?
09:40<@Celestar>Brianetta: no, at the rated speed of the track
09:40<@Celestar>Brianetta: afaik, the ICE-T has basically two operating modes. One that that cancels out lateral forces, one that permits maximum curve speed.
09:41<Brianetta>Celestar: That's not flexible enough. I want my coffee *never* to tilt.
09:41<@Celestar>Brianetta: use a plane (=
09:41<Brianetta>Planes are worse.
09:41<@Celestar>only in bad weather
09:41<Brianetta>Train is the smoothest means of transport I know
09:41<Brianetta>and unfortunately
09:41<@Celestar>that depends on the train and the track I must say
09:41<Brianetta>I also know that they deliberately don't cancel all lateral forces with tilt
09:42<Brianetta>because some journalists were pissed on the APT
09:42<@Celestar>The Frankfurt-Cologne track feels like a roller-coaster at 300km/h.
09:42<Brianetta>and thought that they felt sick
09:42<@Celestar>not so much the curves, but the 4% slopes ...
09:42<Brianetta>In fact, they should just go and invent artificial gravity, and use that
09:42<Brianetta>then they can throw the vehicle all over the place
09:43<Brianetta>or even do corkscrew roll bridges
09:43<Brianetta>and vertical sections
09:43<Brianetta>all without spilling any of my precious coffee
09:43<Brianetta>which, being train coffee, cost a fortune
09:44<@Celestar>Brianetta: btw: titling can cancle out lateral forces, but liquid is liquid, especially when it is inside your vestibular system and tells you that you about angular acceleration.
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09:46<@Celestar>Brianetta: and since the train, or the carriage, has a non-infinitisimal length, you will feel some angular accelaration in curves, even if you build them as clothoid.
09:46<Brianetta>bah. barely perceptible.
09:46<Brianetta>In any case, they should just optimise it for my seat.
09:46<Brianetta>Or go with AG.
09:47<@Celestar>Brianetta: just use a blood lid for you bloody coffee :P
09:47<@Celestar>bloddy lid even
09:47<@Celestar>bloody :P
09:48<Brianetta>never thought of that
09:48<Brianetta>that might work
09:48<Brianetta>but it's nowhere near as cool
09:48<Brianetta>Keep It Stupid, Stupid
09:53<Eddi|zuHause><Celestar> Tekky: do you experience performance problems anywhere? <- yes, whenever i play an ECS game
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09:54<Tekky>ECS games cause performance problems? Is this due to the logic of the finite state machine used by NewGRFs?
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09:54<De_Ghosty>aren't those for inertial dampeners?
09:54<De_Ghosty>you don't get a force when acceleration
09:54<De_Ghosty>i mean you only*
09:55<DjViper>cargodest... how stable is that now?
09:56<Eddi|zuHause><Celestar> Brianetta: nope. High-Speed Tracks should be built so that they cancel all lateral forces. <- only Leipzig-Nürnberg is not a high speed track :p
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>Tekky: afaik the most used function was "resolveSpriteGroup"
09:56<Tekky>DjViper: I haven't noticed any bugs in cargodest, recently.
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09:57<DjViper>Tekky: can it be installed on the win build?
09:57<DjViper>and, how?
09:57<+glx>DjViper: you can get it on
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09:58<+glx>it's like a nightly
09:58<DjViper>that's ottd+cargodest?
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09:59<+glx>cargodest is not a patch, it's a "branch"
09:59<DjViper>ah okay
10:00<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: no, it's a very low speed track
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's still the same route that they built 150 years ago ;)
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>and the geographic preconditions were not good for straight level track back then either ;)
10:02<@Rubidium>glx: next time it's better to show them (as that's easier and more useful for most people)
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10:02<+glx>Rubidium: I don't know all pages ;)
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10:04<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: well .. but we finally need new ones. Munich-Berlin in 3 hours or so
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10:07<Eddi|zuHause>afaik that's one of the pre-war track records that is still not broken ;)
10:07<Kloopy>Celestar: What revision is cargodest based on atm?
10:08<+glx>Kloopy: r14361 is the latest merge
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10:08<Kloopy>Thanks glx.
10:09<@Celestar>I'm off
10:09<@Celestar>SmatZ: did it work?
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10:14<fonso>is there an official opinion about diagonal leveling and demolishing?
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10:14<Eddi|zuHause>as official as any other opinion...
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10:14<fonso>I'd still like to see it in trunk and if I knew what you think is missing, I'd fix it
10:14<Brianetta>It's commonly regarded as not possible.
10:15<fonso>I have an implementation
10:15<Brianetta>in which case, it might become possible.
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10:16<fonso>Actually that's 3, as there was some argument on how it should be done
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10:17<fonso>They all work fine and I'd prefer the java style iterators, but the c++ style iterators or the macros would also be OK for me.
10:20<fonso>peter1138 - you were the last to comment on the diagonal levelling and demolishing patch(es). Is there anything I can do to get any of them into trunk?
10:20<Brianetta>If you want it into trunk, you need ot talk to the maintainers.
10:20<fonso>I just tries
10:21<Brianetta>Since they're here, but not talking, I'd suggest asking later.
10:21<fonso>as always
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10:21<Brianetta>Alternatively, you could try doing something with FlySpray
10:21<fonso>oh, right - I forgot about that.
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10:40<fonso>here you are:
10:41<Brianetta>I'm sure some people will find it very useful.
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10:41<fonso>yes, and they have already expressed that a month ago
10:51<+glx>fonso: thanks for the translation for FS#2319 :)
10:52<fonso>no problem, any more french (or german for that matter) around?
10:52<+glx>but it was not really needed ;)
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11:00<DJNekkid>is there any way to run openttd in a som kind of debug way? i got a crash ...
11:00<DJNekkid>reproduceable as well
11:01<fonso>I'd suggest a debugger, like gdb
11:01<DJNekkid>that works in windows?
11:02<fonso>Microsoft offers a debugger as part of visual studio
11:02<fonso>but I don't know what it's called
11:02<fonso>or you can use mingw
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11:03<DJNekkid>well, it's on a precompiled binary ...
11:03<fonso>you'll have to recompile with debug signals
11:03<@Rubidium>DJNekkid: precompiled by who?
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11:04<DJNekkid>celestar i guess ... it's in the cargodest branch
11:04<DJNekkid>not sure if it's related to that tho
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11:05<DJNekkid>i got a sign, and when i edit it, remove all letters, and press enter it crashes
11:05<@Rubidium>oh.. that's fixed in trunk already
11:05<DJNekkid>oki... :)
11:05<DJNekkid>so it's an "old" bug :)
11:06<Yexo> <- fixed 3 days ago
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11:06<DJNekkid>thats why i ask here before i post anything there :)
11:07<petererer>Hmm, that hg log command in seems to take a while.
11:07<petererer>cargodest.hg$ time hg log -r 1b7af927:0 -k "svn" -l 1 --template "{desc}\n" "src"
11:07<petererer>real 0m7.794s
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11:09<welshdragon>afternoon all
11:12<welshdragon>how do i build openttd onto a usb flashdrive?
11:13<petererer>You copy it onto the drive.
11:13<petererer>That is all.
11:13<welshdragon>aah, that's cool
11:14<welshdragon>luckily it's a 4gb drive, so it can fit ratker a lot in
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11:17<@Belugas>i think building on a flash would take eons to complete
11:19<welshdragon>Belugas: i weill tell you how long it took
11:20<welshdragon>i might also try to snaffle some free pen drives from somewhere, put openttd on them and thn send them to people
11:20<thvdburgt>Just a random thought of mine: Isn't it silly the {road/rail/tram}set is included in the bridge sprites? Now the opengfx is comming along nicely isn't it time to seperate split them? This would make life easier for artists.
11:22<thvdburgt>Because there are not anymore colors in the 8bit pallet (are there?) A second sprite showing the location of the road on the bridge could be used. When this sprite is not available you can fall back to the old behaviour.
11:22<Eddi|zuHause> <- read this
11:26<thvdburgt>I don't see how that is relevant, isn't that just a way to assign labels to road which can be used to allow or disallow certain vehicles on it?
11:26<Yexo>no, it also split the sprites
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>it might be useful to read the Railtypes section also
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11:32<petererer>Hmm, 15 degrees C... seems reasonable for a harddrive :)
11:33<thvdburgt>"Track overlays for junctions and PBS" What are the slope pieces used for?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i have some °C spare. would you take them? :p
11:34<welshdragon>hmm, installed openttd, but it needs the files from transport tycoon deluxe cd to run
11:34<welshdragon>and i don't have those
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>thvdburgt: uphill tracks?
11:35<thvdburgt>Aren't the underlay sprites used for that, they should be drawn *with track*
11:36<petererer>thvdburgt, PBS on slopes, basically.
11:37<thvdburgt>how are these track different than normal tracks?
11:41<Prof_Frink>welshdragon: 3407
11:42<thvdburgt>Is there any documentation on how the bridge sprites will look like with the system?
11:43<Brianetta>welshdragon: You can't play then.
11:43<@Belugas>thvdburgt, hopefully, there will be no difference
11:44<thvdburgt>This would off course be better for backwards compatibly but how can you check which part of the bridge sprite to overlay with the road/rail/... ?
11:45<Brianetta>thvdburgt: It's always the same
11:45<thvdburgt>welshdragon, you can try this:
11:45<thvdburgt>Brianetta, ?
11:46<Brianetta>thvdburgt: The track. It's always in the same place.
11:47<thvdburgt>Do bridges have underlay and overlay sprites?
11:48<Brianetta>Yes. Otherwise vehicles wouldn't go through lattice girder bridges, etc
11:48<thvdburgt>true, it is clear now :)
11:48<Brianetta>It's the blitter's job to draw them properly.
11:50<Brianetta>OK, I'm off home to pack my rucksack.
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11:52<Prof_Frink>Rucksack, yes.
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12:27<seba>anybody for a coop play?
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12:28<Yexo>seba: try #openttdcoop
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12:37<petererer>You can play coop without them...
12:37<petererer>They don't have a monopoly on it :)
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12:40<@Belugas>wow... a fund_town patch that does not involve copying lots of code...
12:41<@Belugas>just don[t know how good the code is, from a quick glance, but it sure feels cleaner than the previous approach
12:42*Rubidium fears a desync (without looking at the patch)
12:42<@Belugas>forgot the link :)
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12:43<@Belugas>could be, Rubidium, i've not made a good and deep reading
12:43<@Rubidium>yes, it desyncs
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12:43<@Rubidium>CreateTownName is the "culprit"
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12:47<@Belugas>so... one approach cold be to move it out of the command and put it as a condition to actually finalize the construction
12:47<@Belugas>or maybe force the user to enter a "valid" name
12:48<@Belugas>or even, why not, use the player's name to compose the town's name
12:48<@Belugas>just wild ideas
12:49<@Rubidium>Belugas: yup, but I've said that eons ago; the other patch "fixed" that desync issue by completely copying the CmdBuildTown function and move the CreateTownName out of one of them and this duplication was my only reason to be against the patch (and the author has been made aware of that by me)
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12:51<@Belugas>can be easily fixed, i think
12:52<@Rubidium>it for sure could've been easily fixed
12:52<@Belugas>lack of will, bruised ego...who knows
12:53<@Belugas>actual p1 and p2 can be easily combined on only one param
12:53<@Belugas>so the other can be used to receive the name part already formed
12:55<@Belugas>time's up for me
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13:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm... CivIV: Colonization comes with boost headers...
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>i must admit, CivIV is the most open proprietary game i have come across yet
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13:45<hylje>civiv uses boost for hooking python into it
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>i know ;)
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>hm... but it hangs on the intro videos...
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13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r14402 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files):
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-09-26 17:45:50
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: slovenian - 3 fixed by Necrolyte (3)
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 1 fixed, 8 changed by josesun (9)
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14:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm... now it hangs on starting a game...
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>something is not right...
14:08<@Bjarni>are you trying it in wine or something?
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>where else would i be trying it?
14:09<@Bjarni>virtualbox, dualboot, another computer
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14:10<@Bjarni>do you know if it works in wine?
14:10<@Bjarni>I mean if other people managed to get it working
14:10<ccfreak2k>One person did.
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>civ4+bts worked
14:10<Prof_Frink>Bjarni: poke orudge
14:10<Prof_Frink>He's off to wineconf.
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>colonization is only out since today ;)
14:11<@Bjarni>I'm not going to do whatever Prof_Frink fancies
14:11<@Bjarni>he might think I fancy him >_<
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14:12<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> colonization is only out since today ;) <-- actually I started wondering "did it already get out? I didn't notice"
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>none of the reports on appdb seem to match my problem
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14:23<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the animations seem to be extremely slow
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14:51<@SmatZ>Celestar: I fail to compile cargodest trunk in gcc 2.95 ...
14:51<@SmatZ> /usr/include/boost/iterator/iterator_adaptor.hpp:218: (use -ftemplate-depth-NN to increase the maximum)
14:51<@SmatZ>hmm I will try it
14:52-!-Ben_ is now known as Sacro
14:52<@SmatZ>yeah, CFLAGS="-ftemplate-depth-99" compiles now :)
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14:58<Kloopy>What's the maximum length of a bridge?
14:59<frosch123>can be lower because of advanced settings or newgrf though
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15:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14403 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14384): The condition was too restrictive.
15:04<@Rubidium>actually 100 is closer to the maximum than 255
15:04<frosch123>"long enough" is even closer :)
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15:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14404 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#2176]: don't make the town flatten land unconditionally when build on slopes is turned on. Based on a patch by Eddi.
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15:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14405 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2289]: Correct handling of selling free wagons while the following vehicle is an engine (i.e. a new train is created).
15:27<FauxFaux>Ooh, is it applying people's patches o'clock? You know you want to do some of mine. :)
15:28<@Rubidium>no, it's reduce bugcount o'clock
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i don't understand it... there's absolutely no reason why the animations should be that kind of slow... and bts shows the same effect now :(
15:28<FauxFaux>I filed bugd with them in, so it's clearly the same thing!
15:42<fonso> is a good address for reducing bug count
15:43*petererer is busy playing on his cargodest server by himself :o
15:44*Eddi|zuHause is busy updating wine
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>although i don't think that will actually help
15:45*Belugas is busy working
15:45*fonso is bored
15:45<@Rubidium>go fix FS#119 ;)
15:46<Alberth>Pointing people to #119 seems like a favorite hobby of yours, Rubidium
15:46<@Belugas>fs1793... such an IMPORTANT bug :S
15:47<@Belugas>because FS119 is a pain in the butt
15:47<fonso>I'm bored, you know ... and I like to set my clock by those trains
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>interesting, that actually DID help ;)
15:47<Alberth>Belugas: I know, I read the description, and how hard you have been trying to find the problem
15:48<@Rubidium>Alberth: yeah, because it none of the devs really has a clue how to fix it
15:48<@Rubidium>and many people tried fixing FS#119
15:48<@Belugas>mmh... maybe we can launch a contest : whomever provides CLEAN and ADEQUATE fix will become a dev!
15:49<petererer>Or gets a beer
15:49<@Belugas>(the add does not mention if it willbe a permanent situation)
15:49<@Belugas>but as for the beer...
15:49<petererer>Permanent beer?
15:49<@Belugas>i think i'll get TONS of it tonight!
15:54*Belugas reads back the proposal for the context and add "...ADEQUATE fix for >>>>FS119<<<<<..."
15:57<petererer>Woo, I'm making money :D
15:57<petererer>Though Pikka's build costs GRF is a bit odd, as it makes roads about 3 times the price of rail.
15:58<petererer>Er, make that six.
15:58<@Rubidium>ofcourse... tarmac is made of something oil-ish and that price is going through the roof lately
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16:05<fonso>smatz, what do you mean with this comment: ? The image shown isn't impossible to render. Can you give me an example of an impossible situation?
16:09<fonso>interesting ...
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16:11<frosch123>fonso: explains in detail what is happening
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16:29<fonso>does this problem also exist with the opengl blitter?
16:30<fonso>As I get it, the sprite sorter can't consider all sprites on the map and so it may miss some that might be related to the ones being drawn, resulting in flickering and glitches.
16:30<@Rubidium>is anyone actually using that blitter?
16:31<fonso>not me
16:31<fonso>that's why I'm asking
16:31<fonso>Opengl could do that without lots of manual sorting
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16:49<sexten>anyone of you got a quick-link to the TTD-graphic files?:)
16:50-!-mortal`` is now known as mortal
16:50<@Rubidium>or rather, to be more correct: file://d:/
16:51<@Rubidium>in other words: giving such links isn't allowed in this channel
16:53<sexten>I'm sorry, I didn't know it wasn't allowed
16:53<@Rubidium>it's similar to asking for a download of Windows Vista
16:56<+glx>would be silly to want to download vista
16:56<Tekky>hehe, yes, one should not compare TTD with Windows Vista :)
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, i could tell you
16:57<@Belugas>I think the point is rather "Who wold want to download Vista"
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>but then i'd have to shoot you
16:58<@Rubidium>Tekky: why? As TTD it's incompatible with it's predecessor and there are better alternatives
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16:58<Tekky>Rubidium: hmmm, ok, you've got a point, there :)
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm... most interesting about colonization is the new method of getting founding fathers
17:00<frosch123>[22:33] <fonso> Opengl could do that without lots of manual sorting <- opengl cannot help you at all, unless _you_ provide z values for all pixels of all ever released newgrfs of the past and the future
17:02<fonso>I'm still digging through the source. So the actual problem is that there are no z values for the sprites but only "in front of" and "behind" relations?
17:02<fonso>I don't quite get how it actually works yet ...
17:03<frosch123>fonso: open your favorite save game and press ctrl-B to get a first impression of what bounding boxes are
17:04<fonso>yes, that's about what I expected them to be
17:05*Belugas goes home . good weekend
17:05<@Rubidium>have fun Belugas
17:05<frosch123>so you have x, y, and z world coordinate, but x and y are not directly related to screen coordinates
17:05<frosch123>night belugas
17:05*Belugas is gone
17:06<fonso>z can alter that
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17:06<fonso>and planes on airports have a different bounding box than planes flying ...
17:07<fonso>why is that?
17:07<frosch123>and when you give them the the same big bounding box on floor they will glitch with the airport buildings and everything else next to the airport
17:08<fonso>so there are parts of vehicles drawn outside their bounding boxes and we can't detect if that collides.
17:09<fonso>but that's not all of the story, is it?
17:09<frosch123>when you have read fs#2078 you should already know a lot
17:11<fonso>I have, but I have only understood half of it.
17:12<fonso>Somehow the bounding boxes can still get mixed up if you keep the drawing inside them
17:12<fonso>And that's due to the sorting of the boxes
17:12<fonso>But why the sorting fails I don't get
17:13<frosch123> <- did you solve that exercise?
17:13<fonso>of course it's impossible, but the errors we see are much more trivial.
17:14<frosch123> <- the error you see is that one: the plane is red, the foundation is green, blue is missing
17:15<fonso>so the problem is that the airport tarmac doesn't have a bounding box?
17:16<frosch123>the problem is that that the aircraft sprite extents over foundations, which are not under the aircraft BB
17:21<fonso>That's still the same story. The aircraft is partly drawn outside its BB. Whenever there is a different bounding box at those parts (the ground is always drawn first and without one, as I get it), we don't know it has to be drawn behind the aircraft. Is that correct now?
17:21<frosch123>so either you have to modify the red or the green BB, or add a blue BB somewhere
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17:22<fonso>make the aircraft larger, merge the foundations or define the runway
17:22<frosch123>yes, you could add a transparent bounding box of height 0 which covers the whole airport
17:22<frosch123>that might work for rectangular airports with flat surface
17:23<frosch123>so if newgrf_ports will never become reality, it might work
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17:23<fonso>Yes, that's all not a real solution. I know
17:24<fonso>but did I get all of the problem now?
17:24<frosch123>seems so
17:24<fonso>nice. thanks
17:25<@Rubidium>but that's only for airports, right?
17:25<frosch123>every glitch needs its own fix :)
17:25<frosch123>btw. I have already fixed the glitches with inclined foundations in one of my working copies :)
17:26<frosch123>just need to do a proper testing of its implications
17:26<frosch123>but at least I found what I was doing wrong all the time :)
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17:27<fonso>how did you fix it?
17:30-!-Sacro|SSL [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:30<frosch123> <- making the BB of inclinded foundations more like the tunnels are - just the other way around
17:31<frosch123>maybe the same could be done for bridge ramps
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17:32<frosch123>but bridges are very sensitive
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17:35-!-Sacro|SSL is now known as Sacro
17:35<frosch123>hmm, over 300 revisions old, what happened to time?
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17:54<fjb>An USB-Drive disguising as a CD-ROM... now that is new.
18:01-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:01<@Bjarni>I once had a PCMCIA ethernet card that the computer identified as an unformatted disk (flash?)
18:01-!-fonso [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:02<@Bjarni>since it did that from the very start I got it replaced on warranty
18:02-!-helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:04<@Bjarni>here is the best part: when I handed it in, they wanted the repairshop to fix it. Somehow I think when a computer sees such a small card as a disk instead of an I/O card, then it's unfixable
18:04<@Bjarni>the repairshop gave up more or less right away
18:06-!-ben_goodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:06<fjb>This thing is strage. It's a SanDisk with U3 (heard about it today for the first time) functionallity.
18:06<fjb>It comes with preinstalled Skype.
18:06-!-ben_goodger [] has joined #openttd
18:07<@Bjarni>I guess I did a pretty good deal because I bought it at almost half price because it was lightly used and they still provided full warranty like it was new. They didn't have any more used ones so they had to give me a brand new one
18:07<fjb>Some kind of Sudoku, a trieal version of some McAffee product...
18:07<@Bjarni>this was in 1996... ethernet cards was expensive, specially with PCMCIA interface
18:07<fjb>Sounds like a good deal.
18:08<fjb>This USB- dirve also looks like a good deal. 2 2GB-Drives bundled for 10€.
18:09<fjb>Sandisks lists them at about $15 each.
18:09<@Bjarni>USB flash disks?
18:10<@Bjarni>if that is the price today then I would consider leaving the MB era :)
18:10<fjb>Downside is it has a big, slowly flashing LED.
18:10<fjb>Oh, 2GB, sorry. :-)
18:10<@Bjarni>there is a 128 MB flash lying around here
18:11<fjb>I'm having some 64MB things here.
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18:11<fjb>Bought that 2 drives at the local store today.
18:12<@Bjarni>I once saw a 16 MB flash
18:12<@Bjarni>it was run over by a car on a parking lot
18:12<@Bjarni>made me wonder if it was on purpose :)
18:12<fjb>I have a combined 32MB flash and 2 port USB hub.
18:13<fjb>But why is the LED that big and bright and flashing?
18:14<@Bjarni>I can get a 2 GB flash for around 7€
18:14<@Bjarni>but I have no idea if A-Data is any good
18:14<@Bjarni>in fact I have never seen that name before
18:14<frosch123>fjb: get some tape and mask it
18:14<fjb>A-Data is cheap, but usually not that bad.
18:14<fjb>frosch123: I will burry it in a wall...
18:15<fjb>But 2GB Sandisk for 5€ can not be that bad.
18:15<@Bjarni>there is a Kingston here for 5€
18:15<@Bjarni>still 2 GB
18:15<fjb>2 x 2GB for 10€.
18:16<fjb>Without shipping costs...
18:17<@Bjarni>shipping is the same as the memory stick :D
18:17<fjb>They had plenty of them at the lowest part of the shelf. At eye hight they had 2GB drives for 18€ each.
18:17<@Bjarni>15,8€ for the 8 GB version
18:18<@Bjarni>now why would somebody want 8 GB anyway :)
18:19<frosch123>Bjarni: you do not have to know how to delete files
18:19<fjb>Why would somebody not have 8GB? Better too much than the few.
18:19<fjb>8GB is not that much today.
18:20<@Bjarni>there is a 64 GB version too o_O
18:20<@Bjarni>when I bought mine, I decided on 128 MB because 256 was huge and really expensive
18:20<fjb>Oh, I could carry my home directory on that one.
18:20<@Bjarni>64 GB is enough for a complete system
18:21<fjb>Even 8GB could carry a complete system.
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18:22<fjb>Hm, I could install the base system (without swap) on that 2GB drive.
18:23<@Bjarni>the 128 MB one is enough for a complete system
18:24<@Bjarni>I once had a complete system on a floppy
18:24<@SmatZ>[00:21:30] <fjb> Even 8GB could carry a complete system. <=== not Vista
18:25<@Bjarni>I think 8 GB is enough for a full install of OSX 10.5
18:25<@Bjarni>including all the optional apps
18:25<fjb>SmatZ: Who talks about Vista? :-)
18:25<@Bjarni>but maybe excluding Xcode
18:26<@Bjarni>I don't know... I haven't really experienced with getting OSX to be as small as possible
18:27<@Bjarni> <-- combine the 8 GB one with this device and you can get a working mac on a lot of public computers
18:27<frosch123>Bjarni: You should revert to 360K 2S/DD disks. You can load them completly into 640K memory and copy them to another disk in one go :p
18:27<@Bjarni>I think it would violate the EULA though
18:28<Nite_Owl>An old DOS system would most definitely fit on a floppy
18:29<Nite_Owl>Provided you remember your DOS commands
18:29<@Bjarni>one of the smallest systems I have seen would be a floppy containing MacOS and virtual PC
18:29<@Bjarni>the MacOS was stripped of all unneeded stuff and virtual PC was used instead of finder
18:30<@Bjarni>this meant that the mac could emulate the x86 instruction set with no background tasks running
18:30<frosch123>[00:30] <Nite_Owl> An old DOS system would most definitely fit on a floppy <- quite surprising for a _D_OS
18:31<@Bjarni>I was once asked how MacOS and OS2 were related
18:32<@Bjarni>somehow they had to be more or less the same... they both had OS in the name
18:32<fjb>And they are operating systems for computers.
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18:44<Nite_Owl>Wait - quite surprising that it would or quite surprising that it would not
18:48<frosch123>as surprising as a TOS fitting on a tape
18:53<Nite_Owl>I ran DOS commands off of floppies all of the time. It may not have been the complete, robust system but it was a working system. Old boot disk did the same thing. They just enough of the OS to make your machine work and let you execute a limited number of commands.
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18:56<@SmatZ>Celestar: compiles
18:56<+glx>SmatZ: as you may have noticed, he's not here ;)
18:59<@SmatZ>glx: yeah :) I hope someone will say I told him that :)
18:59<@SmatZ>or so...
19:00<@SmatZ>DorpsGek misses @tell functionality :(
19:00<@SmatZ>@tell Celestar compiles
19:00<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Error: I haven't seen Celestar, I'll let you do the telling.
19:01<+glx>you can send him a mail
19:01*petererer has a few 4MB flash cards...
19:04<@SmatZ>petererer: hard to say anything nice about that :( maybe... they will have a historical value soon :)
19:04<@SmatZ>like cameras storing photos on a 1,44 MB diskette
19:07<Nite_Owl>I still have a working 100MB zip drive with several working disks
19:08<petererer>SmatZ, they still have a use.
19:10<@SmatZ>petererer: makes me happy... I really don't like older hardware lying around unused :-/
19:10<@SmatZ>Nite_Owl: so do I :)
19:11<@SmatZ>but the prices of 100MB ZIP media were insane ... 20-30 Euro (or USD that time) ...
19:11<@SmatZ>though it was well before Euro :)
19:12<@SmatZ>maybe 15-20...
19:12<petererer>I guess these cards cost a lot back in the day...
19:13<Nite_Owl>REALLY - I here am thinking I am the last person on Earth still using them. There is a store near by that still sells the disks. They are expensive compared to CD's or DVD's.
19:13<petererer>Do people even bother with CDRs these days?
19:14<Nite_Owl>If you want to record music to play in the CD player in your car you do
19:15<petererer>Modern systems seem to accept SD cards too.
19:15<Nite_Owl>True but a lot of people still have older cars
19:16<@SmatZ>:-) it's always better not to buy anything, or you may be angered by how low prices are two years later...
19:16<petererer>Nite_Owl, I'm just going to " ... " at that statement.
19:16<petererer> ...
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>. . .
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>i wish i had an older car...
19:18<Nite_Owl>My car is 8 years old and I have no plans to replace it anytime soon
19:19<petererer>Car age has absolutely no bearing on the capabilities of the stereo that is installed.
19:19<Brianetta>My car is negative many years old
19:20<Brianetta>and can drive itself
19:20<Brianetta>Since it doesn't exist yet, the performance of its stereo is... wanting.
19:20<Nite_Owl>True - you can replace the stereo but if it sounds good and the media is still available why bother
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>i have used a CDR exactly once
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>to put a knoppix on it...
19:22<Nite_Owl>Plus I have a huge collection of music CD's so the choice is an obvious one
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>i have like two audio cds...
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't even know where they are...
19:25<Nite_Owl>Just call me old fashioned. Heck I even have some cassette tapes and vinyl albums stashed away somewhere
19:26<Nite_Owl>Dinner is served - L8r all
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19:47<ln>buona sera, señoritas
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20:09<ccfreak2k>Who made the lovely ASCII diagram for DrawBox()?
20:15-!-Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:16<ccfreak2k>I fixed the opengl patch. :3
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20:20-!-Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
20:31<Chrill>the BR 'HST', which train IS that? :p
20:31<Chrill>from the br trainset
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20:36<ccfreak2k>I would say the HST.
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22:16*Sacro installs TortoiseHG and VisualHG
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23:36<ccfreak2k>Quick sanity check:
23:36<ccfreak2k>openttdtest/trunk/src/rev.cpp says it's Autogenerated.
23:36<ccfreak2k>Should I distribute it with a patch?
---Logclosed Sat Sep 27 00:00:39 2008