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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-10-09

---Logopened Thu Oct 09 00:00:23 2008
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02:36<dih>transporter vanished :-P
02:38<Eddi|zuHause>sad, was a great game
02:39<dih>i sent them an email saying they were violating gpl :-P
02:39<dih>and that they were including copyrighted grf files
02:39<Eddi|zuHause>i was kinda expecting that :p
02:39<dih>and they replied that they were 'unaware' of what the other guy did and removed it
02:40<dih>sadly the subdomain still exists, but the download link is gone
02:40<dih>and it's not linked from their webpage anymore
02:41<@petern>if only they had included the source instead of the grfs...
02:42<dih>and the gpl lisence
02:42<dih>compiling with --revision=transporter0.0.1 just is not enough :-P
02:44<@petern>"OpenTTD transporter0.0.1"
02:47<dih>transporter.exe --help still showed OpenTTD
02:53<@Rubidium>did the download really go?
02:54<@Rubidium>can still download the zip if you know where it is
02:59<ln>what's this transporter anyway?
03:03<planetmaker>svn co -r14xyz && ./configure --revision=Transporter0.0.1 && make
03:04<planetmaker>ach ja, the check out of course from our well known source for source code :)
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03:18<dih>planetmaker: that will fail
03:18<dih>svn co creates a directory
03:18<dih>if you co trunk it will be trunk/
03:18<dih>you need to cd to it first
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03:53<planetmaker>right, dih :)
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03:56<Phazorx>have a silly question, trying to patch current trunk with oldtracks and it complains about scope of _opt.landscape, is it named something different now? (patch is ~250 revisions behind
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04:21<dih>Phazorx: in that case a lot has happened
04:22<dih>try bringing the patch up to date by doing only a few revs at a time
04:32<@petern>Yeah, the settings stuff has changed a lot.
04:33<@Rubidium>but way more than 250 revisions ago
04:34<@petern>Rubidium: did check -> checked
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04:51<@petern>Today is a fragrant day.
04:52<FauxFaux>It's of negative pressure here.
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05:00<planetmaker>there's no such thing as negative pressure :P
05:00<planetmaker>if at all, it's tension ;)
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05:21<FauxFaux>planetmaker: A relatively negative pressure?
05:21<FauxFaux>Compared to other days.
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05:21<planetmaker>then it's 'relatively low' :)
05:23<FauxFaux>You're going to be one of these people who claim that lightbulbs aren't darkness absorbers, aren't you. ¬_¬
05:23<Sacro>FauxFaux: they are
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06:05<eQualizer|dada>I heard someone has made similar kind of thing in OpenTTD but with trains?
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06:47*petern ponders upping his server to lenny.
06:48<@petern>Debian Lenny.
06:48<Aali>oh, the latest Debian?
06:48<@petern>Well, testing.
06:49<@petern>Stable is still Etch.
06:49<Aali>which is funny, because the testing branch of debian is still a year behind the rest of the world
06:50<Brianetta>Debian COnservative
06:50<@petern>Why break a winning formula?
06:51*FauxFaux hands Aali an urban legend.
06:52<FauxFaux>It's not that far behind at this point in the release cycle. ¬_¬
06:52<Aali>I like poking fun at it nonetheless
06:52<@Rubidium>it's currently actually further behind than at other times in the release cycle
06:53<@Rubidium>if they weren't about to release lenny as stable OpenTTD 0.6.3 would've been in testing, now it isn't and won't be in lenny
06:53<FauxFaux>I was talking about compared to the state of tesing ten seconds before it officially becomes etch in about a year.
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06:55<@Rubidium>well, testing is now in a very deep freeze for about 3 months
06:55<@petern>And still full of bugs :D
06:56<Phantasm>☃ <-- Unicode Snowman. ;p
06:57<FauxFaux>Yeah, the rc count is still way above 200, aages 'till release.
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07:08<dih>FauxFaux: lenny will never become etch
07:17<FauxFaux>Become.. the etch!
07:17*FauxFaux goes for lunch.
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08:38<Sacro>argh prlog><
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09:13<petern>Sir Belugas.
09:13<petern>$ ./autopilot.tcl
09:13<petern>Segmentation fault
09:15<planetmaker>I wonder... autopilot here? :)
09:15<@Belugas>Lord Nelson, I salute you :)
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09:58<TrueBrain>petern: you can segfault tcl? Sounds bad :p
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>wow... "have changed something"... that's a great commit message :p
10:00<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: try reading the VirtualBox SVN commit messages
10:00<TrueBrain>you laugh your ass off :)
10:00<TrueBrain>"PDM: More words." <- really .. :p
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>+import; <- that's the change... why can't he tell that in the commit message?
10:01<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: people can't make good commit messages .. they just can't :p
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10:03<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like "implement feature XY variable AB" :ü
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10:03<TrueBrain>yeah, that annoys me too :p
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10:17<+glx>why? "implement feature XY variable AB" clearly tells what is now supported :)
10:18<+glx>it's important for newgrf devs
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10:22<dih>15:13 < petern> $ ./autopilot.tcl <- can i be of any help?
10:23<dih>which autopilot are you using?
10:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14451 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/api/ai_sign.cpp signs.cpp): [NoAI] -Codechange: allow sign text to be set by CMD_PLACE_SIGN, so AISign:BuildSign() can be simplified
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10:27<Eddi|zuHause>wtf? how can the line "return set([])" cause a "TypeError: an integer is required"?!?
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10:37<petern>dih, from your SVN.
10:38<petern>#0 0x00000000 in ?? ()
10:38<petern>#1 0xb741cf14 in exp_create_commands () from /usr/lib/
10:38<petern>#2 0xb741d057 in exp_init_most_cmds () from /usr/lib/
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10:39<petern>$ tclsh
10:39<petern>% package require Expect
10:39<petern>Segmentation fault (core dumped)
10:39<+glx>so it's in libexpect
10:40<Ammler>petern: you should use ap+:
10:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14452 /branches/noai/ (38 files in 4 dirs): [NoaAI] -Sync: with trunk r14434:14450
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10:41<petern>It is.
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10:43<petern>expect is built for tcl8.3, but tcl8.3 and tcl8.4 are installed.
10:44<+glx>use 8.3
10:44<Ammler>should work with 8.5 too, afaik
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10:47<petern>glx, i did ;)
10:47<petern>Ammler, please shut up with your useless 'advice'.
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10:52<Ammler>well, we run ap wirth 8.4...
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11:13<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: certainly, you can use a tcl script with (almost) any tcl version, but a tcl module must be compiled for exactly that version
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>(it's the same with python, and i assume any other scripting language that allows using native modules)
11:15<dih>dont use 8.3 dont use 8.5
11:15<dih>i'll be back in an hour or so
11:16<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: depending on the API changes, yes ;)
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i think i found my TypeError problem...
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>reference counting is a bitch...
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>PyInt_AsLong(PyObject_GetAttrString(python_entry, "action")) <- works
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>PyInt_AsLong(PyTuple_GetItem(python_node, 0)) <- does not work
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>spot the difference...
11:24<yorick>pyobject_getattrstring returns a new reference
11:24<yorick>pytuple_getitem doesn't
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>PyInt_AsLong((temp=PyTuple_GetItem(python_node, 0), Py_INCREF(temp), temp)) <- hm, that looks ugly, is there a better solution that fits into one line?
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11:28<yorick>PyInt_AsLong(PyObject_GetAttrString(python_entry, "action"))
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11:28<yorick>or maybe PyInt_AS_LONG
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>hm, quite irrelevant...
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>speed optimisation is a non-issue
11:30<yorick>why do you need it in one line?
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>because it's all part of a much bigger expression
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>never program sequential when you can program functional :p
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>i should pay more attention to writing code i can actually analyse ;)
11:38<yorick>what are you actually doing?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>i've had a line "x = (x,y)" in my code, and my points-to analysis totally barfs on that one
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>when x and y are of type A in the expression, x is of type tuple(A), in the next iteration, x can have type A or tuple(A), so x can be of type tuple(tuple(A)) ... infinite recursion
11:39<yorick>y, x = x, y :)
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>that one is easy...
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's a pessimistic analysis, so after that assignment, x can be both x and y
11:40<yorick> am = new math.AtithmeticManager().addOperand(new math.Operand((float) a).addOperand(new math.Operand((float) b); am.operator = new math.operators.Addition(); am.executeMathOperation()
11:40<yorick>or just print a+b
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>that is java at its best :p
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11:42<yorick>classic OOP bloated example
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11:45<@Bjarni>you guys are wasting bandwidth
11:45<+glx>@kick Sacro
11:45-!-Sacro was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [glx]
11:45<+glx>@kick yorick
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11:45<Metalcore>@kick Metalcore
11:45<@Bjarni>you have a huge overhead since you only transmit a single byte in each package
11:45<Metalcore>worth a try
11:45<yorick>but...but...he started!
11:45<petern>Sacro has a huge one
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11:46<Metalcore>albeit, a bit laggy
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11:46<Metalcore>you guys should work on that
11:46<yorick>we need a faster bjarni
11:46<@Bjarni>next you will try to overclock me, right?
11:47*yorick gives bjarni some more power
11:47*yorick gives bjarni a bigger cooler
11:48<@Bjarni>don't you think 700 V and liquid cooling is enough?
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause>700V? that's more than a tram takes :p
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>our trams go on 600V i think
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11:56<@Bjarni>I actually took the number from my locomotive
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11:56<@Bjarni>but it goes without saying that it outranks trams anytime :D
11:58*petern limits Bjarni to 1mA... see how much power you have now...
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11:58<@Bjarni>1 mA*700V = 0,7W
11:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14453 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_town.hpp.sq: [NoAI] -Fix: someone updated the Squirrel-files wrongly ;)
11:58<Brianetta>Our Metro uses 1500V
11:59<@Bjarni>1500V is an old standard from when railroads used 750V engines
12:00<@Bjarni>so to get the voltage as high as possible in the catenary they used a voltage that worked on two engines in series
12:00<@Bjarni>remember this is from before they wanted to add transformers on trains (too inefficient, big and heavy)
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12:00<Eddi|zuHause>what did they do when one engine broke?
12:00<@Bjarni>1500 V is a pain today though
12:01<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: disengaged the bogie and drove on the engines on the other one ::)
12:01<@Bjarni>1500V is usually used for EMUs, meaning you can have several powered bogies
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>so that effectively means one broken down engine makes two engines go offline
12:02<@Bjarni>so losing power on one isn't such a big issue
12:02<@Bjarni>yeah, one engine would take the other one with it
12:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14454 /branches/noai/ (9 files in 4 dirs): [NoAI] -Remove: dropped support for AITransactionMode; this will never work in a stable way with OpenTTD, so it is more safe to remove it all together.
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12:17<Brianetta>Tyne & Wear Metro is EMU
12:18<@Bjarni>I can't find technical details on how powerful old 1500 V EMUs were
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12:18<@Bjarni>but the point is that they were usually short distance EMUs and that they had powered and unpowered units
12:19<@Bjarni>the powered ones usually had two powered bogies
12:19<Brianetta>Each articulated unit on the Metro has three bogies. The ones at the ends are powered, the one under the bendy is not.
12:19<@Bjarni>also if the train died, then they stopped and picked up the phone and called for a locomotive to pull them away
12:19<@Bjarni>in the beginning they usually got steam
12:20<Brianetta>Metro run in pairs
12:20<Brianetta>They *can* run up to four together, but most platforms on the system aren't long enough for more than two
12:20<Brianetta>On Sundays they sometimes run singly to give a chance for maintenance
12:21<@Bjarni>usually it's the length of the platforms that limits the size of the trains
12:21<Brianetta>Since the extension, they've been short of stock. No extra stock was bought.
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>whose bright idea was that? :p
12:21<Brianetta>They get end-of-lifed in 2020.
12:21<@Bjarni>I bet it was a political agreement
12:21<Brianetta>Eddi: It was a condition for funding the extension.
12:22<Brianetta>1500V dc EMU stock has to be build specially. Not cheap.
12:22<Brianetta>There was only about £5M to spend.
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>5M? how many meters of new track are that?
12:22<Brianetta>About 200
12:22<Brianetta>which was what was needed to connect to BR track
12:22<Brianetta>That track was electrified, and new stations built
12:23<Brianetta>Ohm, there was more new track at the other end
12:23<Brianetta>If they'd spent twice as much they could have had comprehensive coverage of the region
12:23<ln>Bjarni: Do you know of an svn client for Mac which uses normal UTF-8 for commit messages?
12:23<@Bjarni>what about catenary on the BR tracks?
12:23<Brianetta>Bjarni: There was none
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>ln: how about putting that in the config file?
12:24<Brianetta>Virgin wanted to run a Pendy down there, then discovered that incompatible wires were going to be present
12:24<@Bjarni>the politicians wanted to extend the 1500 V railroad system in Copenhagen a few years ago
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12:24<ln>Eddi|zuHause: config file of what?
12:24<Brianetta>The stretch of BR track the Metro rent costs them more than the maintenance of the rest of the network
12:24<@Bjarni>the problem was that they wanted to use tracks, that already had 25 kV catenary
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>how should i know :p
12:25<Brianetta>I hope that in 2020 they re-volt the whole thing
12:25<@Bjarni>ln: I use the svn client that comes with fink. Ever since they declared it stable (which was 4 years ago), it worked without any problems
12:25<Brianetta>but I suspect the insulators aren't up to 25kV
12:26<@Bjarni>they can slowly start to replace to 25 kV catenary now
12:26<@Bjarni>you can always have 1500 V on 25 kV wires, but not the other way around
12:26<Brianetta>very slowly
12:26<Brianetta>They aren't subsidised. The Metro is self-financing and borderline profitable as long as nothing breaks.
12:28<@Bjarni>in that case I can imagine the trains will still be in operation in 2030 :P
12:33<Brianetta>yeah )-:
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>i can't imagine immediately rotating out the entire rolling stock
12:33<Brianetta>They were bought all in one go.
12:34<Brianetta>Hmm, I think I should go home.
12:34<Brianetta>Yes, home.
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12:49<Sacro|Laptop>hey ludde
12:50<ludde>any [se, fi, no, gb, fr, it, es] users here? I got some invites to Spotify to share. A play-as-much-music-you-like music server I'm working on.
12:50<ln>it's the first time ludde was spotted joining the channel!
12:50<ln>usually he does it secretly.
12:50<ludde>i've been here a few times, but maybe not since the move to this network
12:50<ludde>don't really remember
12:51<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: gb as in uk?
12:51<yorick>why only se, fi, no, gb, fr, it, es?
12:51<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: yes
12:51<Sacro|Laptop>ooh, me me me
12:51<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: email please?
12:51<ln>ludde: you have, but usually people only detect you after some hours of idle time. :)
12:51<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: sent
12:52<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: danke :)
12:52<ludde>ln :)
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12:52<ludde>sulai: you want Spotify too?
12:52<dih>[18:51] <ludde> don't really remember <- i do
12:53<yorick>I would like that, but it says "not available in your country"
12:53<ludde>I saw the opengfx project, impressive
12:53<ludde>yorick: yes. only those countries I mentioned. we don't have legal stuff done in the rest
12:53<dih>did you see the 'impressively long' license discussion?
12:54<ludde>dih: no
12:54<ludde>dih: what about it?
12:54<dih>it's impressively long
12:54<ludde>dih: in the forum, somewhere?
12:54<dih>and the license had not been discussed before starting the project or accepting contributions
12:54<Sacro|Laptop>ooh. show ludde the commit video
12:54<Sacro|Laptop>tis awesome
12:54<dih>yes, also in the graphics section
12:54<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: what do you mean?
12:55<dih>yes - that is awesome
12:55<ludde>commit video?
12:55<ludde>show me
12:55<Sacro|Laptop>perhaps if you have cvs history that can be added at the beginning
12:56<@Bjarni>hello ludde
12:56<@Bjarni>welcome back :)
12:56<dih>Sacro|Laptop, still would be missing a chunk between cvs and svn
12:56<dih>like 900 revs
12:56<dih>or 800 'n something
12:56<yorick>I believe
12:57<Sacro|Laptop>i thought Bjarni had some files
12:57<ludde>hm, was it already 4 years ago
12:57<ludde>hi Bjarni
12:58<@Bjarni><ludde> hm, was it already 4 years ago <-- yeah... it would appear so
12:58<@DorpsGek>yorick: Commit by truelight :: r1 / (202 files in 13 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
12:58<@DorpsGek>yorick: Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
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12:59<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: did you install spotify?
12:59<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: no e-mail yet
12:59<@Bjarni>that is some really weird music in that video :s
12:59<Prof_Frink>Sacro|Laptop: my friend did one of those for 1 month of KDE trunk.
12:59<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: really? hm
12:59-!-mortal` [] has joined #openttd
12:59<Prof_Frink>Utter chaos.
12:59<Sacro|Laptop>oh, i misspelt it
13:00<Sacro|Laptop>laptop keyboard is borked
13:00<@Bjarni>Sacro|Laptop: either that or the user is borked :P
13:00<TrueBrain>oh no, it is a ludde! :) Hi ludde :) How are you doing?
13:00<+glx>I'd say both are borked ;)
13:00<Sacro|Laptop>Bjarni: pfft
13:00<TrueBrain>and Bjarni too
13:00<ludde>i'm good thanks :) I'm sharing Spotify invites right now
13:01<ludde>TrueBrain: what country are you from?
13:01<Prof_Frink>Spotted flies?
13:01<@Bjarni>like most OTTD developers
13:01<TrueBrain>ludde: more correctly, you are spamming this channel :p But it is you, so we forgive you ;)
13:01<@Bjarni><SacroLaptop> Bjarni: pfft <-- now the audio is borked too
13:01<ludde>TrueBrain: sorry :)
13:02<TrueBrain>how is the service going?
13:02<ludde>we released it the other day
13:02<ludde>right now you still need an invite, unless you pay for a premium membership (with no ads)
13:03<TrueBrain>nice :)
13:03<ludde>it's mostly known in sweden so far
13:03<TrueBrain>so why are dutch people excluded? :p
13:03<ln>do you have an unlimited number of invites?
13:03<ludde>ln: more or less
13:03<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: got it :)
13:04<TrueBrain>orudge: remind me, ever got in touch with domain owner?
13:05<@orudge>I did get in touch
13:05<@orudge>and then he disappeared
13:05<@orudge>and didn't reply to my e-mails
13:05<ludde>my brother? :)
13:05<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: iPod support?
13:05<TrueBrain>ludde: do you have any clue?
13:05<@orudge>ludde: yes
13:05<@orudge>I got a reply
13:05<@orudge>he said he's add me on MSN
13:05<@orudge>he never did
13:05<ludde>orudge: i can ask him
13:05<@orudge>that'd be good
13:06<Sacro|Laptop>FLEETWOOD MAC :D
13:06<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: you like the app?
13:06<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: it's playing me fleetwood mac
13:06<@orudge>ah, Jonty was on about this spotify thing. I think at one point somebody mentioned tha
13:06-!-mortal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:06<Sacro|Laptop>love it <3
13:06<@orudge>that it was a ludde-created product
13:06*orudge hasn't tried it though
13:06<ludde>orudge: jonty?
13:06<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: written in XUL?
13:06<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: no
13:06<@orudge>he's on here usually I think
13:07<@orudge>or maybe not
13:07<@orudge>he's in #tycoon anyway
13:07<ludde>orudge: don't know who that is.. do you want an invite to Spotify?
13:07<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: how to close the prefs?
13:07-!-Purno [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:07<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: just click somewhere else in the side bar
13:07<@orudge>ludde: well, go on, then :)
13:07<Sacro|Laptop>it feels like songbird
13:07<ludde>orudge: ?
13:07-!-Purno [] has joined #openttd
13:07<ludde>almost :)
13:08*TrueBrain writes all those address in his little black book
13:08<ludde>orudge: sent
13:08<@orudge>TrueBrain: well, you already have mine ;)
13:08<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: if you click on the edit button, then onto the main screen, the edit button stays highlighted
13:08<TrueBrain>ssstttt :p
13:08<Sacro|Laptop>same for file, playback, help
13:08<Sacro|Laptop>hmm, how to scroll through albums
13:08<ln>ludde: i guess i could try it too if you send an invite to
13:09<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: which edit button?
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13:09<Sacro|Laptop>File, Edit, Playback, Help
13:09<ludde>ah, good catch
13:10<Sacro|Laptop>it needs some way of flipping through albums
13:10<Sacro|Laptop>like *coughs* coverflow
13:10*Sacro|Laptop hides
13:10<ludde>i like coverflow
13:10<Sacro|Laptop>HELL YES
13:10<TrueBrain>Sacro|Laptop: there is no place big enoguh for you to hide :p
13:10<ludde>ln: sent
13:11<Sacro|Laptop>NO< I@M HOLDING SHIFT DOWN
13:11<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: why?
13:11<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: cos this song is epic win
13:11*TrueBrain counts his patient counter of the day ..
13:11<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: send me a link to it (dragdrop or copy)
13:12<ludde>ah, that one
13:12<Sacro|Laptop>such an awesome track
13:12<ludde>the sound sounds a bit cracked in the beginning
13:12<TrueBrain>ludde: why are such few countries allowed?
13:12<ludde>TrueBrain: we don't have licensing with the rest
13:12<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: what is that?
13:13<ludde>an artist?
13:13<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: no, the memory usage :p
13:13<Sacro|Laptop>was seeing how light it is
13:13<Sacro|Laptop>songbird is quite bulky
13:13<ludde>of course, I made it ;)
13:13<Sacro|Laptop>being in XUL
13:13<TrueBrain>lol @ ludde :)
13:13<ludde>I only make fast apps
13:13<@orudge>don't suppose Spotify is going to be integrated with ;) I guess in a way they perhaps compete.
13:13*orudge likes having all his media players scrobble tracks
13:14<TrueBrain>ludde: but when you pay, you can access it?
13:14<ludde>TrueBrain: no.
13:14<Sacro|Laptop>orudge: heh, i'm in a channel with the devs
13:14<ludde>TrueBrain: you can't pay if you're not in one of those countries, iirc.
13:14<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: where is that?
13:14<Sacro|Laptop>they went to Hull Uni
13:14<TrueBrain>ludde: ah ;) The site is slightly unclear in that ..
13:15-!-mortal` [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:15<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: i could go there and share them some invites ;)
13:15<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: #freeside on
13:15<Sacro|Laptop> even
13:15<dih>ludde: try to get permission for germany will you?
13:16<SpComb> <-- the OpenTTD project should try and find itself free slave labour as well
13:16<ludde>dih: it's coming
13:16<Sacro|Laptop>ludde: GPL? ;P
13:16<ludde>Sacro|Laptop: the client? no
13:16<Sacro|Laptop>hehe, aww
13:17<TrueBrain>SpComb: very easy, but if it produces good quality code .....
13:17<Sacro|Laptop> D:
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13:18<TrueBrain>right, back to NoAI ..
13:18<SpComb>TrueBrain: yeah, you might end up with some highly variable levels of quality
13:19<@orudge>it'd be interesting to see what would happen if OpenTTD was a Google Summer of Code project
13:19<@orudge>and what sort of project ideas people might come up with
13:19<TrueBrain>SpComb: I think it would more end up with VERY LOW level of quality :p
13:19<Metalcore>we'd end up with Transport Empire
13:19<@orudge>generally, it seems (at least with Wine) that a couple of the SoC developers will end up staying on and contributing well
13:19<@orudge>whereas the others... might not
13:19<TrueBrain>orudge: we once considered applying, I remember ..
13:20<Metalcore>there's still a copyright issue, isn't there?
13:20<TrueBrain>last 2 times we were too late :p Hehe :)
13:20<@orudge>arguably, yes
13:20<Metalcore>especially with the graphics/sound
13:20<@orudge>but then, other projects, such as ScummVM, have requirements for 3rd party content
13:20-!-Mortal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:20<@orudge>and they're still in SoC
13:20<SpComb>TrueBrain: well, there are some very good C++ coders doing said course, but yeah, there's probably a hundred not-so-good-C++ coders
13:20<TrueBrain>the copyright of the graphics/sound is _very_ clear, and not an issue
13:21<TrueBrain>(you have to buy the game yourself)
13:21<@orudge>with the $4500 Google gives you, you're a bit stingy if you can't spare $5 for a copy of the game :p
13:21<+glx>the "problem" is the origin
13:21<Prof_Frink>For the low, low price of £34.07!
13:21<TrueBrain>SpComb: I see it in classes I take .. 2 people make code which is readable, the other 18 make code that is horrible
13:21<SpComb>the exercise groups are also chosen randomly
13:21*orudge needs to come up with some of publishing arrangement with Mr Sawyer to sell TT(D) at
13:22<@orudge>I think krtaylor did actually enquire about something of that sort a few years ago
13:22<@orudge>funnily enough, Atari weren't interested
13:22<SpComb>well, you pick three options, and people are put into groups based on how many points they got on the exercise things during the first half of the course
13:22<TrueBrain>orudge: for that you need to go to Atari :)
13:22<@orudge>they weren't even interested enough to see if they owned TT
13:22<SpComb>so it's not entirely random
13:22<SpComb>"Mostly did it with one other guy, the other one tried to participate but didn\'t quite succeed, everything he did had to be redone... And he\'s the one who codes for work..." <-- but yeah... example feedback from the 2006 course
13:22<TrueBrain>SpComb: I am already happy some dutch University is going to use NoAI for their class in AI :)
13:22-!-taytay [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:23*SpComb is going to be doing it with a couple of his friends
13:23<SpComb>need to come up with some good project idea
13:23<@orudge>maybe I should suggest it to my professor who's doing the AI course :p
13:23<SpComb>what does this "NoAI" consist of in this context, exactly?
13:23<SpComb>the nail scripting language?
13:23<TrueBrain>orudge: please do ;)
13:23<TrueBrain>SpComb: an AI framework for OpenTTD, if that is what you are asking
13:24<TrueBrain>in a C++ like language (Based on lua)
13:24<SpComb>so they're using OpenTTD in their AI course?
13:24<TrueBrain>NAIL will replace the current Squirrel yes
13:24<TrueBrain>(if I can fix the final problems ... 80% done, but the final parts always take the longest :()
13:24<SpComb>:( )
13:25<TrueBrain>well, yes
13:25<TrueBrain>how to write an AI for OpenTTD without OpenTTD :p
13:25<blathijs>TrueBrain: Which uni?
13:25<TrueBrain>blathijs: euh .. let me look up the post
13:25<TrueBrain>it wasn't 100% sure or what ever, but okay
13:27<TrueBrain>blathijs: URL in PM (dutch, so I didn't want to post it here)
13:27<TrueBrain>doesn't mention with university .. oh well :p
13:27<TrueBrain>that people at least consider it, is enoguh for me to claim that NoAI is a success :)
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13:39<ln>it's playing music
13:40<ludde>ln: great
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13:42<ln>ludde: might i say it's maybe pointless to list possible birth years up to 2008 on the registration page, unless you are aiming at baby audience. :)
13:45<TrueBrain>#1 0x0000000001d7f6b8 in ?? ()
13:45<TrueBrain>#2 0x0000000000442078 in AIAccounting (this=0x44acd9)
13:45<TrueBrain>somehow you never want to see such frame ..
13:46<blathijs>at least it seems the rest of your stack is still intact?
13:46<blathijs>I get them occasionally with ?? in the entire stack :-)
13:46<TrueBrain>yeah, it just made an invalid dereference
13:47<TrueBrain>then you fucked something up really good :)
13:47<TrueBrain>in this case it is just a 'this->DoSomething();', where 'this' is not really valid :p
13:47<blathijs>overflow writing into the stack I think
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>hm... some random new guy joins an suddenly the whole channel goes crazy... might as well be a Tokio Hotel concert :p
13:47<blathijs>TrueBrain: That shouldn't break the stack like that, yeah?
13:48<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: you buy the tickets?
13:48<blathijs>TrueBrain: s/yeah/right/
13:48<TrueBrain>blathijs: it should ;)
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i doubt that :p
13:48<TrueBrain>it starts executing at some random place .. what you expect :p
13:48<blathijs>TrueBrain: I would say it should show DoSomething (this=0x0) then or something
13:48<yorick>Eddi: s/new/old/
13:48<blathijs>TrueBrain: Though if DoSomething is a virtual method, then it won't come that far I guess :-)
13:48<TrueBrain>blathijs: this=0x44acd9 ;)
13:49<TrueBrain>but okay, the exact code is not that, as then you are right
13:49<TrueBrain>it is : this->instance->DoSomething()
13:49<Eddi|zuHause><ln> ludde: might i say it's maybe pointless to list possible birth years up to 2008 on the registration page, unless you are aiming at baby audience. :) <- better than the Error'd version which only features years since 2000 :p
13:50<blathijs>TrueBrain: Ah, right :-)
13:51<blathijs>TrueBrain: Though you might expect to get a segfault in AIAccounting then, not some random anonymous frame below that
13:51<blathijs>but that's probably some C++ complexity :-)
13:51<TrueBrain>blathijs: and I am pointer-fucking at an annoying level, so I should have expected errors like that :)
13:51<TrueBrain>blathijs: that only happens when this is 0x0 ;)
13:52<TrueBrain>as this is outside the first memory block, the normal segfault handling for 0x0 dereference doesn't catch it .. and the pointer is in fact very valid
13:52<TrueBrain>just pointing to some random address within a valid class
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13:56<blathijs>ah, right
13:57<blathijs>so it can in fact find a valid (ie, readable) memory in the vtable to execute, but that's probably halfway some other method, or somewhere at a random memory location
13:57<TrueBrain>as I said, I am doing very weird and dangarous stuff :p
13:58-!-LA [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]]
13:58<TrueBrain>exactly :)
13:58<TrueBrain>and then it jumps to some random location
13:58<TrueBrain>after which the garbage starts :)
14:04<TrueBrain>victory!! :)
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14:15<TrueBrain>blathijs: it sucks that you don't have much time lately, I sure could use your help on NAIL :p
14:17<blathijs>heh :-)
14:17<blathijs>I'm not much of an AI coder, though
14:17<yorick>it's the ai language
14:17<TrueBrain>#2 0x000000000041b0be in NAILLib_Array::len (this=0x0)
14:18<TrueBrain>well, the AI part I leave to others too
14:18<TrueBrain>I am just trying to design this VM, and it is failing on me currently :(
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14:53<Phazorx>TB hola
14:53<@Bjarni>looks like I'm out of phase with Phazorx
14:54<@Bjarni>I didn't get what he tried to say :/
14:54<TrueBrain>hi Phazorx :)
14:54<@Bjarni>heh, wasn't aimed at me
14:54<@Bjarni>we usually use full nicks in here (they highlight, you know)
14:55<TrueBrain>strange, the world doesn't evolve around you ..
14:55<TrueBrain>who would have guessed
14:55<@Bjarni>we better change that
14:55*Bjarni starts to spin the chair
14:56<@Bjarni>see, now the whole world rotates around me :D
14:56<Phazorx>that's what we want you to think... at least
14:56<Phazorx>these are not the droids you are looking for...
14:56<@Bjarni>wouldn't it be "Bjarni->Correct(PHASE);" ?
14:57<Phazorx>Bjarni: if PHASE whould be a constant is there any need to correct it somehow?
14:57<@Bjarni>PHASE could be constant as an enum for what to correct
14:57<Phazorx>sync(PHASE) would make more sence all around IMHO :)
14:58<@Bjarni>but too optimistic
14:58<@Bjarni>you see even the big commercial power companies can't do that
14:58-!-Purno [] has quit [Quit: Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.]
14:58<Phazorx>anyway something tells me there is enough sync achieved as is, at least in Assasins Creed terms :)
14:58<@Bjarni>Denmark is out of sync
14:59<ln>ludde: there are impressively many songs available, i must say.
14:59<Phazorx>somethign is always rotten in kingdom of danemark as one old man used to say...
14:59<@Bjarni>the power grid in the western part is 50 Hz like the eastern part, but they are out of phase so they aren't connected :s
14:59<Phazorx>Bjarni: that is strange for that small of a country
14:59<TrueBrain>Phazorx: AC is cool :)
14:59<Phazorx>alsmast like japan
15:00<@Bjarni>the eastern part uses Swedish phase while the western part uses German phase
15:00<Phazorx>TB it has first decent emersive out-of-game interface part
15:00<TrueBrain>Phazorx: it is annoying to not use <tab>
15:00<Phazorx>TB is shorter to type
15:00<Phazorx>and i use lame opera built in client
15:00<Phazorx>that reminds me i have to compile xchat or bx
15:01<TrueBrain>by the lack of Tron, it should be enough :p
15:01<Phazorx>heh okay, i'l try next time
15:01<@Bjarni>there is a railroad bridge between the east and west part of the country and the catenary is 50 Hz.... it has an unpowered section so the trains can move from one phase to another
15:01<Phazorx>but imho - as long as you know who am i addressing that's gotta be good enough :)
15:01<@Bjarni>which means... Denmark phaseshift trains on a regular basis
15:01<Phazorx>Bjarni: that is at least weirds i must say
15:02<TrueBrain>Phazorx: but TB doesn't make it nice red :p
15:02<Phazorx>but in case of major disaster only half of country goes out
15:02<@Bjarni><Phazorx> but imho - as long as you know who am i addressing that's gotta be good enough :) <-- it fails to highlight though
15:02<@Bjarni><Phazorx> but in case of major disaster only half of country goes out <-- we tried that.... too bad it was my half that lost power >_<
15:02<Phazorx>Bjarni: highlighting is a mean to get attention if it is possible to get such by other means they are just as good :)
15:03<Phazorx>Bjarni: on a bright side you got to see a sky full of stars :)
15:03<@Bjarni>power was lost at 12:4x and restored like 4 hours later
15:04<Phazorx>poor little europe can'teven have a major blackout nowadays
15:04<@Bjarni>naturally the failure turned out to be a mechanical failure in Sweden
15:04<@Bjarni>short circuiting power output from two nuclear powerplants at the same time
15:04<Phazorx>in US eastern coast was out 16-20 hours in 2002 due to casscade powergrid failure
15:05<Phazorx>arent these things are meant to never happen?
15:05<@Bjarni>it is
15:05<Phazorx>or one failure overloads another station
15:05<Phazorx>like it was in US
15:05<@Bjarni>the problem was that first one transformer failed and the Danish power grid tried to compensate, but so did the Swedish
15:06<TrueBrain>Phazorx: and who is going to test such systems? :p
15:06<@Bjarni>The Swedish recovered and the emergency powerup disengaged
15:06<@Bjarni>and before it was ready to activate again the other transformer failed
15:06<@Bjarni>it all happened within 1-2 sec
15:06<Phazorx>TrueBrain: sure... pixiedust and crossed fingers are far much more reliable than tests
15:06<Phazorx>Bjarni: few lightbulbs might have not survived..
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15:08<@Bjarni>I can remember I was scheduled to some computer work (should learn how to use a new program) from 13-17
15:08<@Bjarni>we kind of decided to just go home when the radio started talking about hours before power was restored
15:09<Phazorx>was g actualy go, or traffic lights were working?
15:09<@Bjarni>everything was dead
15:10<@Bjarni>or on battery power
15:10<@Bjarni>must have sucked to have used the train at that time
15:11<@Bjarni>and the power to the catenary just died
15:11<@Bjarni>specially if you were in the tunnel under Copenhagen... it got pretty dark :P
15:11<@Belugas>of course, lights in tunnels are not yet implemented
15:11<Phazorx>nice afternoon adventure :)
15:12<@Belugas>hem.. i meant signals...
15:12*Belugas goes back to hell@work
15:12<TrueBrain>Bjarni: ever heard of emergency lights? Work pretty long ..
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15:12<TrueBrain>Belugas: good luck
15:12<@Bjarni>but they are kind of dim
15:13<Phazorx>annoying orange flash in many km tunnel of walking must be something you hope to see when power goes out :)
15:13<@Bjarni>they didn't install any orange light in that tunnel
15:14<TrueBrain>bah, the vsync of my screen is wrong ...
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15:20<yorick>got cindini down to 4.10 MB :)
15:21<yorick>compressed with OTTL
15:21<@Bjarni>you cared about data size?
15:21<yorick>if I need to download it in multiplayer, I care, yes
15:21<@Bjarni>I mean it's not like it matters if it's 4,1 or 4,2 on modern hardware
15:21<yorick>no, 4.1 or 5.2
15:22<@Bjarni>what is cindini anyway? :)
15:22<yorick>it's the nice map project
15:22*TrueBrain looks at his 100 mbit/sec connection and thinks: I don't see the problem
15:22<@Bjarni>yorick is on a 56k modem
15:22<yorick>TB: the problem is the server upload
15:22<@Bjarni>at least he acts like he is
15:22*TrueBrain looks at his 100 mbit/sec connection and thinks: I don't see the problem
15:22<yorick>hehe, the server thinks it is
15:23<TrueBrain>any server not on at least a 10 mbit/sec, is not worth calling a server :)
15:23<TrueBrain>and I don't care if joining takes 4 or 5 seconds
15:23<yorick>you'd be surprised
15:23<yorick>tt-forums has attachement limit
15:24<TrueBrain>I doubt I will be
15:24<@Bjarni>I know
15:24<yorick>I think it is 5 mb
15:24<@Bjarni>it was 4 mb the last time I checked
15:24<TrueBrain>now we start talking abou tt-forums
15:24<yorick>yes, I am all weird
15:24<@Bjarni>but I fail to see the connection
15:24<@Bjarni>your server will not suffer from the forum limitation
15:25<TrueBrain>I also wonder what good it does for you to be able to compress something really small
15:25<TrueBrain>OpenTTD still uses its own compression
15:25<yorick>I cannot put 5.2mb maps on the forums, but 4.1 should be possible
15:25<yorick>"loading LZMA save"
15:26<Phazorx>hmm... still got a silly question.. trying to revive oldtracks... from -250 revisions patch... and it complains about _opt.landscape being out of scope... while trying to determine map/save settings... was that majorly changed since 0.6 ?
15:26<yorick>the name
15:27<petern>Phazorx, you were answered this morning.
15:27<TrueBrain>wasn't _opt merged with _settings or so?
15:28<Phazorx>petern: hmm... sorry perhaps i went dsync
15:28<yorick>no, that's openttd
15:28<Phazorx>i missed the answer besides what dih said....
15:29<Phazorx>hi petern btw, i assume you are the peter :)
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15:38<Phazorx>TrueBrain: so is _opt.landscape now _settings.landscape ?
15:40<petern>check the change log
15:40<Ammler>yes he is THE peter
15:40<Phazorx>peter from when?
15:40<Phazorx>Ammler: i can ee that now :)
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16:10<TrueBrain>boring in here
16:10<@Belugas>come in here, fun is garanteed!
16:11*TrueBrain books a flight
16:12<Eddi|zuHause><Phazorx> somethign is always rotten in kingdom of danemark as one old man used to say... <- that's weird, we use the exact same phrase... "Es it etwas faul im Staate Dänemark."
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16:13<@Belugas>ho... good... you have found my apple... i was looking at it for a month now!
16:14*TrueBrain thinks Belugas lost it
16:15<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: ever read Shakespeare?
16:15<@Belugas>hi haha@!! WWEEEEEEE!!!! Blublublublub!!
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: never heard of that one... :p
16:16*TrueBrain feeds Belugas some sanity
16:17<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: that's a bit of common general knowledge for ya
16:17<Phazorx>considering i am russian you SHOUKD know that :)
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>no... we have Goethe, we don't need no stinkin shakespeare
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>"Das Land der Dichter und Denker"
16:19<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: why do you say such things about Denmark :S
16:21<Phazorx>last time i checked Goethe was german...
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni is just out of phase :p
16:22<TrueBrain>as always
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16:24<@Bjarni>thank you :P
16:24<@Bjarni>would you mind answering my question? :)
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>random fact of the day: in all the localized versions of Monopoly, the streets are named after an important town, such as London or New York, except in the german version, where the street names are totally generic
16:25<TrueBrain>germans sucks
16:26<@Bjarni>The Danish version has names of roads in Copenhagen (go figure)
16:26<@Bjarni>we lack the railroads though so it has 4 ferry lines instead
16:26<HerzogDeXtEr>german is a great language
16:26<Phazorx>petern, or anyone else what wexactly did i miss relevant to my _opt.landscape question before that i should know while truing to fix oldtracks patch?
16:26<Prof_Frink>The Bournemouth and Poole version has the names of areas in bournemouth and poole.
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, the reason for that is that when Monopoly was originally translated to german, it DID use street names of Berlin
16:27<TrueBrain>Phazorx: just scan the current code, and find your answer :)
16:27<TrueBrain>you are clever enough for that ;)
16:27<Phazorx>time is something i dont have
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>but that was in the 1930's so the roads were called "Goebbels Road" and stuff
16:27<Phazorx>one of reasons to ask questions is to save time in case if others already did necessary research
16:27<Phazorx>which is exactly the case here
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>so that got kinda unpopular after the war :p
16:28<TrueBrain>Phazorx: grep landscape src/*
16:28<TrueBrain>most likely shows you :)
16:28<HerzogDeXtEr>hey, when will the bug fixed, what is elemiating all industries on big maps? thats pretty anoying
16:28<TrueBrain>I myself have no idea
16:28<@Bjarni>what about the railroads?
16:28<+glx>Phazorx: check settings.cpp, they are all there
16:29<+glx>you can also take a look in a recent openttd.cfg
16:29<Phazorx>define recent?
16:29<+glx>since the change
16:29<@Bjarni>head revision ;)
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, everything was replaced by generic names, so the railways are called "north station", "main station" etc.
16:29<Phazorx>i'm into early 14XXX now followin dih's suggestion
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>the roads are called "Goethe-, Schiller- and Lessingstraße", which are a pretty safe bet in practically any german city
16:30*Bjarni notes not to play monopoly in German
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause> <- this is the german layout
16:36-!-sulai4511 [] has joined #openttd
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>although the version i have is not in €
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16:40<HerzogDeXtEr>have you ever seen a street with the name "seestraße" ?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>google says there is one in berlin
16:41<HerzogDeXtEr>there is also a street named "Unter der Brücke" (in english: under the bridge) :D
16:41<HerzogDeXtEr>this would be a good street for monopoly
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16:43<Phazorx>crashed :(
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16:44<Phazorx>on intro screen pbs.cpp:83
16:45<Phazorx>assert((GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_RAIL, 0) & TrackToTrackBits(t)) != 0)
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16:46<Phazorx>can .cfg make a difference in that aspect?
16:46<Phazorx>since i use very old one
16:46*Belugas goes home -ciao ciao
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16:47<TrueBrain>night Belugas
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16:56<TrueBrain>hmm .. I want a nice action movie, but I can't find any :(
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17:09<ln>Bjarni: what's the Obj-C way of opening a file?
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17:26<TrueBrain>hmm .. if one would like to write an application these days with a clear GUI .. how would one do that?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'd stay away from GUIs as far as possible
17:28<TrueBrain>tnx for not helping Eddi|zuHause
17:28<TrueBrain>what a helpful bunch you guys became ..
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>you're welcome
17:28<TrueBrain>if that was an option, I would not have asked what I asked .. so still not helping
17:29<TrueBrain>and remind me to make an OpenTTD version without GUI :p
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17:31<TrueBrain>I expected more from you Eddi|zuHause :(
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>no really, i'm the worst guy to ask with a GUI
17:31<TrueBrain>then just say you don't know ;)
17:31<TrueBrain>clearly I have little to no knowledge about it too, still .. I need to know :)
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17:38<+glx>TrueBrain: I'd use wxwidgets
17:38<Volley>TrueBrain: uh... define clear GUI
17:38<TrueBrain>glx: any good?
17:39<TrueBrain>lately I read a lot about XUL, and I wonder if that isn't a bit .. too heavy :p
17:39<+glx>it's a c++ cross-platform GUI framework
17:39<+glx>can be used from python too
17:40<TrueBrain>Volley: well, it should allow neat stuff, not the win3.11 style :p
17:40<TrueBrain>glx: tnx, will look at it :)
17:40<+glx>uses native look of the system
17:40<Volley>i still don't really know what you look for :)
17:41<TrueBrain>still it works well cross platform? I mean, the sizes of things stay the same? :p
17:41<+glx>sizes may be different but proportions and relative positions are kept
17:42<TrueBrain>Volley: Qt, wxwidgets, XUL, ...
17:42<+glx>but usually sizes are the same
17:42<+glx>as you set them in the code :)
17:43<ln>but you really need to use sizers.
17:43<TrueBrain>hehe, cool :)
17:43<+glx>ln: of course, sizers are the best things
17:44<+glx>and XRC is a nice thing too (but I still need a good free XRC editor)
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17:50<Volley>well, i didn't do much coding recently, but after painful experiences with java i would propably try wxwidgets for crossplatform apps ... and eventually have a look at qt/kde coding somewhen ...
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17:58<TrueBrain>how nice .. songbird can, via gstreamer, work over esd .. but nowhere they tell me how :(
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18:01<ln>20:10 < Sacro|Laptop> MASSIVE ATTACK - TEARDROP :D <--- yeah, sounds very familiar
18:02<TrueBrain>glx: wxwidgets mixes the layout with the code, right?
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18:06<Sacro>ln: so it should
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18:24<fjb>With cargodest, if an industry temporarly doesn't accept a cargo and a train arrives at the associated station it still drops the cargo there? I see the paiment in yellow color and the cargo vanishes. It doen't get listed at the station. Where does the cargo go? Is it lost?
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19:22<+glx><TrueBrain> glx: wxwidgets mixes the layout with the code, right? <-- mainly in ctor
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19:52<laz0r>hi, can i somehow edit a openttd savegame with the scenario editor?
19:52<laz0r>or convert a savegame to a scneario?
19:53<XeryusTC>rename it to .scn
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19:55<laz0r>uh, thats easy enough, thanks guys
20:09<@SmatZ>but don't complain when it breaks / crashes...
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22:07<laz0r>it might break? ... well, so far it didn't, so all is good...
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 10 00:00:46 2008