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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-10-15

---Logopened Wed Oct 15 00:00:58 2008
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03:38<@Celestar>hm ..
03:38<@Celestar>rsyncing 40k files takes some time :P
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03:43<@Celestar>hey Eddi|zuHause
03:43<Eddi|zuHause>i hate power outages
03:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's the second one in two days!
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03:59<dih>morning pm
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05:05<A_Person>Crap, why the hell is it telling me a 11 pice train is too long
05:05<A_Person>I have 7 tile stations grah!
05:11<planetmaker>with newgrf the relation 1 tile = 2 wagons doesn't hold necessarily.
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05:18<A_Person>Myeah, well, at elast there's the huge trains switch
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05:23<A_Person>?Well, with the ones that I have loaded it still seems to be 2 pices per tile :D
05:25<planetmaker>round(2.13) = 2
05:28<A_Person>Hmm, interesting
05:28<A_Person>Well, it still fits into my station with 14 units
05:32*A_Person murders his evl terminus station
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05:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, with the long trains switch off, the limit is 10, obviously...
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05:46<A_Person>I didn't remember it being that short, especially since the game offers building size 7 stations in the GUI
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>you could open a feature request that they are limited to 5 then ;)
05:47<A_Person>or raise the length limit in stead :P
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's a hysterical limit.
05:48<@Rubidium>from hysterical raisins
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>it makes no sense to change it... that's why the switch to turn it off is there
05:49<A_Person>It makes no sense to me to leave the limit smaller than an ancient GUI feature would seem to suggest
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>the gui is way less ancient than the limit ;)
05:52<A_Person>I curse this game for being so attractive while being so evil and incompatible with my little mind
05:55*Rubidium wonders how many people ever wondered why the sun was "still" shining when (s)he stopped playing a Transport Tycoon flavour
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05:55<A_Person>It happened to my dad the one and only time he played the game
05:56<A_Person>I've prob done it many times
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06:14<dih>hey ho sir
06:16<A_Person>Is it just my paranoia or does the area of your station's caption that overlaps a primary industry affect how much of it's output arrives at your station?
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06:29<Brianetta>A_Person: It's your paranoia.
06:29<A_Person>Good, then I just have to haul better to get the % up :D
06:30<Doorslammer>Are they too tall? :S
06:34<Doorslammer>No wonder I dont bother with DBSetXL
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06:46<ln>where's the baby?
06:49<Doorslammer>Dingo ate it?
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>"Und wenn sie nicht gestorben sind, dann spielen sie immernoch OTTD"
06:50<Doorslammer>Thats so true
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06:55<ln>english only
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07:01<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, teach him! ;)
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07:53<A_Person>Wow, I just saw Jesus Camp. Mad stuff
07:54<keyweed_>it's a mad world
07:54<A_Person>A mad sad place it is
07:54<keyweed_>fundamentally mad
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07:54<keyweed_>there's !freedom of religion! as long as you beleive in the RIGHT God. not the other one. that's wrong.
07:55<Ridayah>And make sure to indoctrinate your children, because they'll be salvation. You can be lazy though!
07:55<A_Person>Nah, those folks don't believe in that, or separation of state and church
07:55<keyweed_>one nation under God.
07:55<A_Person>It's their wish to live in a theocracy
07:55-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:55<keyweed_>yet they condemn iran for being a theocracy
07:56<keyweed_>confusing stuff
07:56<Ridayah>oh no, they do. Seperation of church and state, they argue, is that the government cannot make laws and take actions impugning the right of religious organizations
07:56<keyweed_>one nation is more equal then other nations?
07:56<Ridayah>but it is totally within the constitution to use religion to effect the state.
07:56*keyweed_ is glad he lives in europe
07:56<Ridayah>These are the same people who argue that lesbians are okay because "God thinks they're hot!" but gay men aren't.
07:57<Eddi|zuHause2>there is no separation between church and state in europe
07:57*Ridayah has to argue with them on a daily basis
07:57<A_Person>not organisations, but a strict group of them
07:57<keyweed_>Eddi|zuHause2: there's not much church left in europe
07:57<Eddi|zuHause2>oh there is...
07:57<keyweed_>but Eddi|zuHause2 is sort of right.
07:57<keyweed_>the Christiand Democratic Union and Christion Union are the parties that run the netherlands at the moment
07:58<Ridayah>Then again, Europe has almost two thousand years of enforced religious rule too though; so it's standard behavior for them
07:58<Ridayah>starting with the Romans
07:58<Eddi|zuHause2>it's just all the crazy guys already went to america, so the european ones are a tiny bit more moderate :p
07:58<Brianetta>'lesbians are okay because "God thinks they're hot!" but gay men aren't.'
07:58<Brianetta>Sound logic, that.
07:59<keyweed_>hmz. true. europe has a long past, we've made most mistakes once or twice already
07:59<keyweed_>but that doesn't stop us from repeating the same mistakes forever!
07:59<Ridayah>Yeah, they argue specifically since the Bible says "Man shall not lay with mankind as he lays with womankind" but says nothing on woman laying with womankind, it condones it.
07:59*keyweed_ puts on the devil advocates hat
07:59<Brianetta>well, yeah (:
07:59<keyweed_>Ridayah: what if you do it standing? orlay differently as you do with women?
08:00<Brianetta>If I had religion it would alll be based around woman lying with womankind
08:00<Ridayah>That's the joke I like to throw back at them. :P
08:00<keyweed_>how literal do you need to take that text?
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08:00<Ridayah>I've seen some really ridiculous religious comments.
08:00<Eddi|zuHause2>people who argue with the bible tend to ignore all phrases of the bible that work against them :p
08:01<Ridayah>Plus two weeks ago we had religious protesting signholders show up on my college campus for no reason. There was debate of making signs for the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and going out there to signhold in protest
08:01<keyweed_>heh. lawyers do the same with law
08:01<Brianetta>Eddi: I argue with the bible all the time
08:01<Brianetta>It never wins
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08:01<Ridayah>Brianetta: You can be assured I will enjoy
08:02<Eddi|zuHause2>i mean make arguments citing the bible
08:02<Brianetta>sorry, that looks like an oxymoron
08:02<Eddi|zuHause2>support their argument with a bible quote
08:02<Ridayah>I've been told that the most challenging debate to do is to make a logical argument for a deity's existence, but it can be done
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08:04<planetmaker>[14:02] <Ridayah> I've been told that the most challenging debate to do is to make a logical argument for a deity's existence, but it can be done <-- it's been done for over 2000 years now...
08:05<Eddi|zuHause2>i'd like to reference Gödel at that point... in every logical system that is sufficiently complex, there are theorems that can neither be proven nor disproven, or the system in itself is contradictory
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08:06<fjb>Religion is the dark side of the force. It is easy and powerful.
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Maths is a religion
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08:08<Doorslammer>Never mess with salvation. They have an army :S
08:10<A_Person>MAths is a science!
08:10*Doorslammer does a mad dance with a test tube
08:10<Doorslammer>But what is SCIENCE?
08:11<A_Person>Science is the application of reason to the understanding of the world
08:11<A_Person>or something like that
08:13<Eddi|zuHause><A_Person> Science is the application of reason to the understanding of the world <- maths has absolutely nothing to do with "the world"
08:13<A_Person>it's a study of numbers
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>a religion is a set of theorems building on axioms that cannot be proven
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>maths is a set of theorems building on axioms that cannot be proven
08:13<A_Person>a study of abstract concepts
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>ergo: maths is a religion
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08:14<A_Person>Ah, yeah, I forgot about them axioms
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>numbers are only secondary to maths...
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>there are huge branches of maths that can live without numbers
08:14<A_Person>Well, they are reasonable assumptions since using them has yet to be disproven in the application to the world, the branch of applied amthematics
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>that statement is complete nonsense...
08:15<A_Person>I'm made of nonsense :D
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>ANY of the axioms that are used in mathmatics are completely exchangeable by their opposite
08:16<Brianetta>[13:10] <Doorslammer> But what is SCIENCE?
08:16<Brianetta>Science is the system of acquiring knowledge through use of the scientific method.
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>the result is a completely new branch of mathmatics
08:16<Doorslammer>Good grief, last time I do a flash cartoon quote :P
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>which in itself is again consistent (or not)
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any kind of "application" in "the world"
08:17<A_Person>Alright, it doens't!
08:17<A_Person>Let's do science without math then ;P
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>trying to pick out a relevant branch of mathmatics to try to fit a "real world" observation into the conclusions of that branch is what they call "science". but that has neither something to do with mathmatics, nor with "proving"
08:18<A_Person>I didn't say anything about proving
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>"sience" is just a lowly servant of maths
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>like "churches" are lowly servants to "religion"
08:19<Doorslammer>Ooo, I know, let's play Toss the H Bomb :P
08:19<Eddi|zuHause><A_Person> Well, they are reasonable assumptions since using them has yet to be disproven in the application to the world, the branch of applied amthematics <- spot the substring "prove"?
08:20<A_Person>Let me untangle the knot that is confusion
08:20<A_Person>in my head that is, not what I might have caused
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>mathmatics is the highest form of philosophy
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08:23<Eddi|zuHause>that the so called "scientists" occasionally find use for a certain branch of mathmatics is purely coincidental, maths can exist without science
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>mathmatics exist purely to the benefit of mathmatics
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08:24<Eddi|zuHause>the so called "mathmatics" you learn in school has nothing to do with mathmatics
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's merely calculating
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08:25<Eddi|zuHause>calculating has nothing to do with mathmatics.
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>mathmatics is the art of avoiding calculations
08:28<@Rubidium>not the art of proving that something is (not) calculatable?
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08:28<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause: mathematics*
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>proving non-calculatability is just an elegant way of avoiding calculation ;)
08:29<@Rubidium>too bad most proofs incorporate some kind of calculations
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, we're working on that ;)
08:32<@Rubidium>and computer science is the art of outsourcing the calculations ;)
08:32<TrueBrain>you guys are WEIRD
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't even get started :p
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>the discussion is more problematic in a foreign language
08:34<@Rubidium>and economics is the art of making something that doesn't add up add up
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, and feeding the not adding up part in a bubble that's ultimately going to burst
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's a wonder how they manage that every time ;)
08:36<@Rubidium>and when it's about to burst they feed it a lot more
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09:44*Belugas ponders renaming the game OpenMTD. M for Merchant, of course
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10:05<A_Person>wow, finally I find somehing cool
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10:25<A_Person>I wonder if those mega station exploits still work in openttd
10:25<@Belugas>i wonder if you're going to try
10:26<Aali>I wonder where I parked my car
10:26*SpComb parks Aali's car
10:26<A_Person>Not too soon
10:26<Doorslammer>I wonder upon a star
10:26<A_Person>I've got other stuff to figure out first
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>dude, where's my ottd?
10:28<@Belugas>I wonder what tomorrow has in mind for me
10:28<@Belugas>or even if i'm in its mind at all
10:28<A_Person>Probably not, I bet it has too little memory capacity :D
10:28<@Belugas>soon as a find myself a CRYSTAL BALL
10:28<@Belugas>--STYX-- Crystal Ball
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>i have one spare, but it might not be as reliable as you'd like
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10:29<Doorslammer>I got a perspex cube if need be
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause>btw. i only have Keane - Crystal Ball...
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10:41<dih>*** XoIN has left the game (received strange packet)
10:41<dih>when is that possible to show up?
10:41<dih>i mean - what must happen for that to show up?
10:42<dih>would that have to be a on-purpose malformed packet?
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10:44<@Belugas>Embrase the Sources!
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10:45<dih>i was hoping someone knew out of the back of their head ;-)
10:45<dih>and yes i will follow up in the code ;-)
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10:51<@Belugas>petern, are you dealing with BlackHawk Network @work?
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11:06<A_Person>Ah, the catchment area patch trades road station range for dock range, hmm
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11:09<Eddi|zuHause>"setting", not "patch"
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11:14<A_Person>yes, patch setting
11:14<+glx>no advanced setting ;)
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>that's a big misnomer that has meanwhile been fixed in the nightlies
11:14<A_Person>My client calls it "configure patches"
11:15<A_Person>I should do some editing in that file, it seems some settings aren't remembered
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>changes you make during a game will only affect that game, not stored for the next game
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause>make changes on the main menu, if you want to keep them
11:16<A_Person>I've tried that
11:16<A_Person>But I don't remember exactly, I'll have to try again
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>(that, in turn, will not affect any games you already started/load)
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>loading a game will restore the settings to the state when you started that game
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11:41<dih><Eddi|zuHause> [17:14:13] changes you make during a game will only affect that game, not stored for the next game <- run saveconfig on the console?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>a) i haven't noticed that this is a trunk feature, b) i wasn't going in that direction, i was merely stating the behaviour of the GUI
11:44<dih>a) it has been a feature for quite some time now
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11:49<Eddi|zuHause>one that i never ever use...
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11:52<@Belugas>dih wants a new user to dwelve in the pleasures of console? How sadistic of you :P
11:52<dih>console is awsome
11:52<dih>it's like my fav part of openttd
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>you are definitely sick :p
11:52<dih>not the code for handling commands or arguments or finding aliases
11:53<dih>but appart from that
11:53*A_Person ponders putting a road depot in the middle of a 3*3 city block with a drive-in through a drive-through stop linking it to the street grid
11:54<dih>do it
11:54<A_Person>I do too little playing and too much other things :/
11:55<dih>Belugas plays a lot
11:55<dih>not openttd
11:55<dih>but hide and "eek" with his kid :-D\
11:57<A_Person>I do wonder why the money cheat isn't in the format of a larger credit than standard, say a 1000 million, heheee
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>because this is not sim city
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11:59<A_Person>Heh, well, I mean it would be nice if even the 20 million cheat would be as a loan anway, I think
11:59<@Belugas>no it would not be nice
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>why bother?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>cheat is cheat
12:00<A_Person>I'm a cheater by nature, with many computer games anyway
12:00<A_Person>Many times difficulty is not fun
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>a pure sandbox mode in a transport game quickly becomes boring
12:01<@Belugas>plus, users are frequently finding the game too easy
12:01<@Belugas>so i guess you have not yet found out how to play it correctly ;)
12:02<+glx>it is indeed easy
12:02<A_Person>Anyway, there isn't a big reason anyway, the cheat menu can easily remind me of what the sum was, I thought of the loan as beng a good way for reminding me where the zero point lies
12:02<A_Person>Well, I'm not really an exemplary tt player, heh
12:02<+glx>just the begining is very slow but once you make money, you get way too much
12:02<A_Person>Or any game really
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12:09<Eddi|zuHause>when are you finally getting this? you are special! exactly like everyone else!
12:09<Brianetta>I've had companies fold repeatedly on my server (:
12:09<Brianetta>It's hilarious
12:09<Brianetta>seeing all these smug players swagger up...
12:10<Brianetta>then it's 1067 and they still haven't paid off the loan, and their trains are getting old and struggling to compete
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>i've never had a problem being effective...
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>just set up one money generating line
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>then you can build up whatever network you want
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12:31<dih>Brianetta, the only sad thing when companies go bankrupt is that it's not mentioned on the console :-D
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12:50<Swallow>Does my breakdowns patch have any chance of getting into trunk?
12:51<Brianetta>Magic 8 ball says: Ask again later.
12:54<dih>Swallow, is your code trunkish?
12:55<Swallow>I think it is, but its not really my opinion that counts
12:56<Swallow>and since it's not a small patch, there will undoubtedly be things that need to be changed/fixed
12:57-!-[demi]Xerres [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:57<dih>Swallow: so check your patch and make sure it follows the coding guide
12:57<dih>then make a report at
12:57<dih>hint: select 'patch' from the dropdown menu
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12:58<dih>Swallow, you checked your code very fast ;-)
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12:59<dih>Swallow, another hint
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12:59<dih>i would not create a new settings option
12:59<dih>there is alreayd a breakdowns setting in difficulty
12:59<dih>add another possibility to that
12:59<dih>else it gets confusing
13:00<Swallow>I disagree about that
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13:00<Swallow>Difficulty settings changes the number of breakdowns like it always did
13:00<Swallow>while the patch setting enables the new breakdown types etc
13:01<dih>advanced setting
13:01<Swallow>but unfortunately I gtg, oh I love birthdays...
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13:13<Eddi|zuHause>"I'm using 1920X1080 on a 40 inch LCD TV" <- and what exactly is this guy complaining about?
13:14<+glx>text is too small ;)
13:14<frosch123>that he is sitting two meters away from it
13:15<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: about his glasses
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i was tempted to write that... "you need glasses" :p
13:17<@Bjarni>the text in the game is small when you switch to a huge resolution... that's kind of the point in a huge resolution
13:18<@Bjarni>that more stuff is supposed to fit on the screen at once
13:19<|Jeroen|>or the same stuff with higher quality
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13:20<@Bjarni>but we can't get higher quality than the sprites we have
13:20<@Bjarni>so we have only the more stuff option
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: the problem is actually, he uses a monitor twice as large as mine, and a resolution only slightly larger than mine, so actually his text is bigger than mine...
13:21<@Bjarni>same here
13:21<@Rubidium>not quite the same here
13:21<@Bjarni>his pixels is like 3,5 times bigger than mine
13:22<@Rubidium>his monitor is > 2.5 times as large and the resolution is lower than mine
13:22<@Bjarni>looks like Rubidium is using CRT
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>by "twice" i mean the diagonal
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>not the area
13:22<@Bjarni>I know
13:23<@Bjarni>I looked at the area though
13:23<@Rubidium>I meant diagonal too
13:23<@Bjarni>I guess your pixelsize is around the same as mine
13:23<@Rubidium>area would be almost 7 times larger
13:23<@Bjarni>we could start calculating to get the real number... but who cares? :)
13:23<@Bjarni>he has big pixels
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13:24<@Rubidium>yeah, more than 7 times as large as mine!
13:24<@Rubidium>but I like them small
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>so you have like 17" monitor?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>is that a laptop or something?
13:25<@Rubidium>15.4 laptop
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>i really hope that it is :p
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13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r14468 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-15 17:40:33
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 8 fixed, 1 changed by alyr (9)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: ido - 98 fixed by Cecile (98)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changed by lorenzodv (1)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 88 changed by dlunch (88)
13:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 15 fixed, 174 changed by v3rb0 (189)
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14:10<frosch123>So what do you think is the correct behaviour of setting property 15 of a non-north multi-tile-house tile to an id of the single-tile-house?
14:10<@Belugas>blow the game?
14:11<Brianetta>Correct behaviour is to desync all players, surely?
14:11<Prof_Frink>Belugas: Oh, how cruel. You made Sacro lose the game.
14:11<frosch123>ottd happily builds the non-north tile of the new house instead of the old house, while ttdp does not build it. in the result mb is complaining
14:12<frosch123>maybe I should ask him, what he tries to archive with that...
14:12<@Belugas>he tries to blow the game!
14:13<@Belugas>or even worse, he has nothing to do, get bored, and tries to catch us pants down ;)
14:13<@Belugas>--- which we never have down, but that's irrelevant to the conversation
14:15<Brianetta>"We don't know, Blunck."
14:16<Brianetta>"Oh, did we say know? We meant care."
14:24<frosch123>Now it is getting interesting. What will happend when I reply to don't-send-me-pms-mb's pm by pm...
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>the world will explode
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>besides, does he even have a new mail address yet?
14:26<@Belugas>he had one before
14:26<@Belugas>frosch123, yu mean he sent you a pm?
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14:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, he had one at ewetel, but i assume that is gone, together with his site
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14:30<frosch123>Belugas: yup, with a test grf.
14:30<frosch123>Bonus question: What will be the name of mb's house grf :)
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14:31<Ammler>don't blame the best grf maker :P
14:31<frosch123>Belugas: he usually does not use special names for his test grfs
14:32<frosch123>i.e. I also have a testgrf that is named "dbsetxl 0.9"
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>i'd guess the new houses grf will be called "newhouses.grf" :p
14:32<frosch123>hint: he should have named "dbsetxl" "NewVehicles" instead
14:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: correct :)
14:33<frosch123>he also talked about NewIndustries somewhere :)
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14:36<Eddi|zuHause>if only he had any kind of release schedule...
14:37<frosch123>"NewBuildings V0.1 10.05.04" "© 2004 Michael Blunck - All rights reserved." <- I hope he copy&pasted the date from somewhere...
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>well it is how long ago since he announced new houses?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>and the last dbset release is also over 3 years ago
14:37<frosch123>I never read an annoucement of new houses from mb
14:38<frosch123>but I was not around in 2004
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, teaser pictures and stuff
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>and a new newstations grf is also a long missing release
14:40<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: They will be all released in a single grf, called "NewGrf" :)
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15:02<FloSoft>Hi, hmm how to set the palette for newgrfs? they change always to "dos"?
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15:03<Ammler>FloSoft: do you use newest nightliy?
15:04<FloSoft>downloaded it 4 min ago
15:05<FloSoft>downloaded the debian package
15:06<FloSoft>after a restart its always set to dos
15:06<frosch123>do you use the grfs from ttd for dos?
15:07<frosch123>start openttd with "--help" and take a look at "List of graphics sets:"
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15:07<frosch123>then use "-I" and "-i" to your liking
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15:07<FloSoft>frosch123: aah its the dos-set
15:07<FloSoft>frosch123: only have the dos-version
15:08<frosch123>then either download dos grfs, or use "-i"
15:09<frosch123>hmm, the "--help" text is wrong
15:13<FloSoft>okay hmm i'll try to find the sets for dos. thx than (but it would be nice to save that parameter for each entry)
15:14<frosch123>just start with "-i 1"
15:14<frosch123>maybe there is also an option in the openttd.cfg - don't know
15:15<Wolf01>what's the problem? you shouldn't be able to use both dos basefiles and windows grfs at the same time?
15:15<frosch123>Wolf01: in 0.7 alpha you can
15:15<Wolf01>in nightly you should too
15:15<frosch123>but you don't have to
15:18<Wolf01>there is a limit, but I don't know what is it, if all the newgrfs must be of the same type (doesn't matter the type of the basefiles) or what else
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15:19<frosch123>as long as newgrf communicate with each other, there should be no limitation about that in nightlies
15:20<frosch123>*do not communicate
15:20<frosch123>though maybe you cannot switch palettes for dedicated servers...
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15:42<@Belugas>TrueBrain, you should add a counter for all the touch-and-goes for the same nick during the day.
15:43<@Belugas>should be interesting to read ;)
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16:17<TrueBrain>lol @ Belugas
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16:33<fjb>May I ask a C question? What does this do? "(void *) (uptr_t) i" It is an argument to a funtion. I is an unsigned char.
16:33<SpComb>double cast?
16:33<fjb>(void *) casts it to a void pointer.
16:34-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:34<fjb>But i is no pointer. i is allocated on the stack.
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16:34<SpComb>perhaps it's an 8-bit machine, and pointers are 8 bits? :)
16:35<@Belugas>could it be an error?
16:35<@Belugas>or a bug waiting to crash the machine?
16:35<fjb>The code once originated on an 8bit microcontroller, but is an actual working example for an 32bit arm based microcontroller.
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16:36<fjb>I'm not fluent in C, but that looks really strange.
16:36<SpComb>it is
16:37<fjb>The fucktion expects a (void *).
16:37<fjb>i is the counter in a for loop.
16:38<SpComb>perhaps it's some kind of pointer-as-an-ofset
16:38<fjb>I hope there is not more of that kind of strange kind of code. Bad enough that I'm forced to implement a real time system using cooperative multitasking.
16:38<SpComb>but adding two pointers together isn't a particularly good idea
16:39<fjb>Hm, offset? I have to check that.
16:39<@Belugas>"...m forced to implement a real time system using..." buwhahaha!!!
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16:40<fjb>Yes, idea is to implement the real time part using interrupt routines...
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>is that related to this "real world" i've been hearing rumours about?
16:40<fjb>That effectively means imlementing a second OS working in parallel to the main OS.
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16:40*SpComb is currently busy trying to implement a fuse filesystem on top of postgresql
16:41<fjb>Yeah, real world stuff. Sadly. :-(
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>i mean "real time" vs. "real world"
16:41<TrueBrain>fjb: it happens that things are passed on as pointer, but read as integer
16:41<TrueBrain>so it really depends on what is going to read the (void *) pointer
16:41<fjb>Fuse for postgresql at least sound cool.
16:41<SpComb>which is, thankfully, something of zero utility and no real purpose, so it's fun
16:41<TrueBrain>if the read is: (unsigned char)ptr, all will work out just fine again
16:42<fjb>I found where it gets read: "u_char id = (u_char) ((uptr_t) arg);" "arg" is that strange pointer.
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16:42<SpComb>but currently my issue is that I want to use postgre's large objects for files, but implementing unlink without invalidating open file handles is untrivial
16:42<SpComb>as lo_unlink does't care about transactions
16:43<fjb>SpComb: Oh, not an easy problem.
16:43<TrueBrain>fjb: so see, nothing 'strange' is going on :) It is just passed on as pointer, but remains a unsigned char :)
16:43<SpComb>so lo_unlinking a oid in one transaction will invalidate that oid in any other transactions
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16:43<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't "unlink" just lower some kind of reference counter?
16:43<TrueBrain>(happens in many software in many places :p People think that it is faster when you pass a pointer :p)
16:43<fjb>TrueBrain: I don't see. How is that working?
16:43<SpComb>unless said other transaction modified the data (lowrite), in which case the lo_unlink just hangs until the first transaction commits
16:44<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: it would be awesome if it did, but it doesn't, it just deletes it right away
16:44<TrueBrain>fjb: the basic idea is that a pointer is always the bit-size of a CPU (so 8, or 16, or 32, or 64 nowedays)
16:44<SpComb>so I need to implement some kind of reference counting + call unlink myself via SQL
16:44<TrueBrain>and registers are faster when you pass the native amount (no bitmasks and shit)
16:44<TrueBrain>but that is not true with modern compilers :)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i was just gonna say... shouldn't the compiler take care of that?
16:45<SpComb> <-- A and B are two separate sessions
16:45<TrueBrain>(in fact, results are mostly worse with modern compilers :p)
16:45<TrueBrain>that said, it is also used if you have a common function to pass things to and from a backend
16:45<TrueBrain>so call that 'common' method a pointer, and pass it what ever you want
16:45<TrueBrain>also bad, but happens a lot :)
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i think i have the only really interesting project around here ;)
16:46<fjb>The idea is that anything could be passed over that (void *). It is the argument to a new thread. So I understand that a pointer gets passed. But I don't understand that casting. Or do I start to understand it now? Still unsure...
16:46<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: You have...
16:46<TrueBrain>fjb: well, there you have it :) You want to allow many things to be passed to a new thread ... and this happens to be a uchar :)
16:47<TrueBrain>as long as the writer and reader agree, no harm is done :)
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>people are always amazed of what i can read out of source code in a non-declarative scripting language, without ever running a single line of that code ;)
16:47<fjb>So I just wrap it looking like a pointer and than unwrap it?
16:47<TrueBrain>fjb: clearly :p
16:48<TrueBrain>like taking your bike inside a train
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>but they also are buffled when it finds primitive syntax errors :p
16:48<TrueBrain>the train might be bigger, but when you get out, you still have your bike
16:48<fjb>But just a single cast to (void *) would not do?
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>which i don't even have anything to do with, as i call a regular compiler first, who finds those
16:48<TrueBrain>fjb: casting a (uchar) to a (void *) can give compile-warnings (not of same bit-size)
16:49<TrueBrain>so people tend to cast them first to (size_t), then to (void *)
16:49<fjb>Ah, thanks for enlighten me. Now it is clear.
16:50<TrueBrain>good luck :p (that really is one of the nasties things of C ... casting :))
16:50<SpComb>silly optimizations lead to silly code
16:50<fjb>Yes, that is why I tried to stay away from C. But this is microcontroller programming. C is not the worst choice there.
16:50<SpComb>#define OMG_MORE_MEGAHURTZ(uval) ((void *) (uptr_t) (uval))
16:51<TrueBrain>fjb: no, for microcontroller programming it is the best language
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16:51<TrueBrain>just get used to it ;)
16:51<SpComb>although I guess uptr_t must mean something
16:51<SpComb>are there any comments?
16:51<fjb>I try. But I'm a bit ruty at it.
16:51<TrueBrain>fjb: you really don't want to program a microcontroller in, say, Python :p
16:53<fjb>Their other projects were in Basic. The PC part talking to the microcontroller is made with Delphy. So they want to hire me for the C part. At least I hope they hire me.
16:53<TrueBrain>Delphi, not Delphy ;)
16:53<TrueBrain>and you know nothing about C? :p
16:53<TrueBrain>C really is the only language for any embed system btw
16:53<fjb>Ok, I don't use it, so I don't know the exact name. :-)
16:54<fjb>I know about C, but some castings are not clear to me. Didn't do any C the last years. Have to get used to it.
16:54<TrueBrain>:) Good luck :)
16:55<TrueBrain>you either love pointers, or you hate them :)
16:55<TrueBrain>I love them ;)
16:55<fjb>I would always vote for C to do microcontroller stuff. You often have to count bits and bytes there.
16:55<fjb>I like pointers. I only don't like casts which I don't understand.
16:56<TrueBrain>I know the feeling :p
16:56*SpComb read a bit of a 200-page book that contained nothing than clever bitwise-operator tricks
16:56<@Belugas>I love Delphi for hiding those pesky pointers away from me
16:56<SpComb>forget the name
16:57<fjb>The only problem I really see is how to do the realtime stuff with just interrupt routines.
16:57<TrueBrain>realtime and interrupts generally don't mix :)
16:57<TrueBrain>unless you think the timer interrupt is called realtime :)
16:57<fjb>I'm only having my K&R ANSI edition here.
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16:58<fjb>TrueBrain: Yes, they think about using timers. And interruptsfrom the input sources.
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16:59<TrueBrain>(normally you use the timer interrupt to 'fake' real time, by switching it to 1000 Hz or so :) Of course you can never make a true realtime something with a CPU like we use :))
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17:00<fjb>It's an 48MHz arm7. And how did you gess that the solution is to use an 1MHz tick clock? :-)
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>python is all nice and calm, until you want to write a c interface to it and get nasty sideeffects with reference counting...
17:01<SpComb>it's *possible* to get the reference counting right
17:01<TrueBrain>arm7, nice :)
17:01<TrueBrain>easy to program on :)
17:01<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: completely non-transparent, how Python does referencing :)
17:01<fjb>Yes, nice.
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: care to teach me the basic patterns?
17:01<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: read the ext tutorial?
17:01<TrueBrain>fjb: I am working on a arm9 project
17:01<TrueBrain>also nice CPUs, lot faster ;)
17:01<TrueBrain>(300 MHz)
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: yeah, i did
17:01<fjb>TrueBrain: Even nicer.
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>but it has too few common examples
17:02<TrueBrain>do use more power
17:02<TrueBrain>but ... easier to add a network port ;)
17:02<SpComb>my experience with python extension modules is pretty limited, and I got by with what the tut explained
17:03<fjb>Power consumption (or the heat that it casts) is the main problem with the arm9 here.
17:03<ln>how would you like an ARM 9 platform with 64 MB RAM, SD slot, Ethernet and a 1.3-megapixel camera?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>i'm bad with tutorials that don't descend in the full depth of the issue
17:04<TrueBrain>fjb: well .. 15W isn't that bad ;)
17:04<TrueBrain>(at full load)
17:04<TrueBrain>but yeah, arm7 is a bit less ;)
17:04<fjb>The Atmel AT91SAM7XC has the network stuff.
17:04<TrueBrain>I love those RISC CPUs :)
17:04<TrueBrain>Nintendo DS works on 2 ARM9s :)
17:05<Sacro|Laptop>TrueBrain: 1
17:05<fjb>15W isn't that bad. But it doesn't get fresh air where it has to run.
17:05<Sacro|Laptop>and an ARM7
17:05<TrueBrain>fjb: hehe, fresh air tends to be important :p
17:06<TrueBrain>networking for ARM7 works, but needs more components ;)
17:06<TrueBrain>SpComb: wrong, it has one ARM7 and one ARM9
17:06<TrueBrain>later models 2 ARM9
17:06<SpComb>oh shit, I'm wrong!
17:06<TrueBrain>sorry SpComb :)
17:06<fjb>TrueBrain: The problem are environments with explosives.
17:07<TrueBrain>both a S, both some color on my client .. very annoying ;)
17:07<TrueBrain>fjb: lol :)
17:07<TrueBrain>fair enough ;)
17:07<SpComb>fjb: hmm, you're writing code to handle explosives?
17:08<TrueBrain>big bala boem!
17:08<TrueBrain>(I love 5th element)
17:08<fjb>No, just a device that may be used in an environment with explosives. So the whole device will come optionally in an encapsulated version.
17:08*fjb loves it too.
17:10<TrueBrain>fjb: but one cool job ;)
17:10*SpComb has been employed as a part-time software developer for a month now, and has yet to write any real code
17:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14469 /trunk/src/station.cpp: -Fix [FS#2355]: Empty station spreads (e.g. from greyed station signs) were modified in test mode.
17:11*fjb is writing real code to get employed.
17:13<TrueBrain>is going to write a system to automaticly deploy a new image for 80 computers ... next week
17:13<TrueBrain>sounds like fun too :(
17:13<TrueBrain>(windows computers, I hate it :p)
17:13<fjb>They have clever engineers but no real software developer. One of the engineers has chosen the cooperative multitasking os because he understads it's api.
17:14*fjb feels sorry for TrueBrain.
17:14<SpComb>TrueBrain: using multicast!
17:14<TrueBrain>I am currently nuking a lompia (do you write it like that in english) .. I wonder if it tastes good ..
17:14<@Rubidium>the taste might be okay, the texture won't be
17:15-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:15<fjb>What is a lompia?
17:16<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you are very correct, the texture is bad .. it was already before I put it in
17:16<TrueBrain>but okay, it smells good
17:16<TrueBrain>and as I don't have a .. "frituur", I can only nuke stuff, or heat them
17:16<TrueBrain>so lets try it
17:16<TrueBrain>(if I remain silent for the next 10 minutes, I died)
17:16<fjb>Oh, found it on wikipedia.
17:17<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: small cooking pot with a liter of vegetable oil works too
17:17<TrueBrain>ha, clever, the plate you need to put it in, is soaked with oil
17:17<TrueBrain>hmm, a bit hard ... not that tasteful ..
17:17<SpComb>TrueBrain: but still alive?
17:17<TrueBrain>Rubidium: that really is disgusting ..
17:17<TrueBrain>one roommate did that once here ... it ... BAH!
17:18-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
17:18<TrueBrain>SpComb: seemly
17:18<@Rubidium>then he most likely didn't do it correctly
17:18<@Rubidium>i.e. too hot or too cold
17:18<TrueBrain>Rubidium: well, after you made something
17:18<TrueBrain>it is REALLY disguesting to leave it around for it to cool down
17:18<TrueBrain>the products made by it are fine
17:19<TrueBrain>just the residu :p
17:20<TrueBrain>wow, parts are still frozen
17:20<TrueBrain>no, this sucks
17:20-!-Mortal [] has joined #openttd
17:21<@Rubidium>anyone in here have experience with "complex text layout" and then especially combining the ligatures?
17:21-!-Chrill [] has quit [Quit: Eoin, they killed Kenny!]
17:21*fjb used TeX some years ago.
17:22<fjb>It is still worth to look how TeX handles ligatures and stuff.
17:22<fjb>TrueBrain: Two or more characters melting into one.
17:22<SpComb>hot oil + water = win
17:24<TrueBrain>SpComb + fire = loss
17:24-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:24<+glx>acid + water is fun too
17:25<@Rubidium>fjb: that's primarily coded in those unreadable and ununderstandable magic tex files
17:25<TrueBrain>hmm .. my access to my NNTP is failing ..
17:25<fjb>Rubidium: Use LaTeX then. :-)
17:25<@Rubidium>yeah, using latex to render OpenTTD texts ;)
17:26<fjb>That sounds like fun.
17:26<fjb>Implement OpenTTD in METAFont.
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>* SpComb has been employed as a part-time software developer for a month now, and has yet to write any real code <- half the time of a project is spent on discussing what should come out of the project
17:27<TrueBrain>I need to buy 2 screens with DVI input .. what would you guys advise? 19"? 21"?
17:27<+glx>how much space on the desk ?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>so it's not uncommon that one month into a project not a single line of code has been written
17:27<@Rubidium>40" with 1920x1080 is too small according to some sources
17:27<TrueBrain>not an issue
17:27<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it's pretty much that, but on the other hand, I've never personally met the customer
17:28<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I have a 32" TV at 720p, enough for me :p
17:28<TrueBrain>32"? 88cm .. dunno what it is in " :p
17:28-!-Xerres [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:28<SpComb>but at least I/they have now managed to arrange it such that I don't go to work just to twiddle my thumbs anymore
17:28<+glx>yes 88cm
17:28<fjb>What is the resolution of the 19" and 21" monitors?
17:29<TrueBrain>fjb: depends on which one I will pick :p
17:29-!-Xerres [] has joined #openttd
17:29<+glx>1680*1050 for the 21" I guess
17:29<TrueBrain>I really wonder if 2x 19" isn't already overkill .. 2x 21" might be complete overkill :(
17:30<TrueBrain>(I now work at 2x 17", but VGA input, and I now have a DVI-I output .. so I can't feed 2 VGAs anymore :p)
17:30<+glx>there are DVI-VGA adapters
17:30-!-nekx [] has joined #openttd
17:30<+glx>I use 2 of them
17:30<TrueBrain>glx: DVI-I, as far as I understand, only has a single analog feed
17:30<TrueBrain>so I can't feed 2 VGAs with it
17:31<+glx>ha you mean 2 screens on 1 plug
17:31<TrueBrain>I only have 1 (!) DVI-I output
17:31<TrueBrain>which allows 2 DVI screens or 1 DVI and 1 VGA screen
17:31<TrueBrain>normal video cards have 1 DVI-I output and 1 VGA output
17:31<TrueBrain>allow 2 VGA screens to be attached
17:31<+glx>or 2 DVI
17:32<TrueBrain>fair enoguh :)
17:32<TrueBrain>I traded my VGA output for a HDMI output :)
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>is there any information about parsing MSVC project/solution files?
17:32<TrueBrain>which my 32" screen loves .. but leaves me with 1 screen for now :p So I was wondering what screen size is still usable ..
17:32<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: define 'parsing'
17:32<+glx>well 2 DVI-I output and 1 TV-out
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>reading information such as include paths for certain files
17:33<TrueBrain>project files are plain text
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>where i have no actual MSVC file here that i could play with
17:33<TrueBrain>so that should be easy, not?
17:33<+glx>TrueBrain: HDMI is compatible with DVI
17:33<TrueBrain>check OpenTTD, in projects/ dir ;)
17:33<TrueBrain>we generate a few :)
17:34<TrueBrain>glx: yup, but doesn't carry an analog signal :(
17:34<+glx>indeed else it won't comply with HDMI specs
17:34<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: it's a nice XML file
17:34<TrueBrain>well, I wouldn't expect HDMI to carry an analog signal :p Would be nasty ;)
17:35<+glx>and that would kill the copyright protection ;)
17:35<TrueBrain>but okay, I need to replace my screens anyway
17:35<TrueBrain>(5 years old already)
17:35<TrueBrain>and I really wonder if 2x 21" isn't complete overkill ..
17:35<TrueBrain>glx: among others ;)
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: after using them for 2 weeks you're probably going to think how you ever could live without them, or worse, think that they don't even remotely suffice your needs ;)
17:37<TrueBrain>hehe :) I never had that problem with 2x 17" :p
17:37<TrueBrain>but I am afraid I need to get back 1 meter more from the screen when I get them any bigger :p
17:37<TrueBrain>on the other end, it would mean if Rubidium and I share a 'screen' (as in application), mine is finally bigger than his :p
17:38<TrueBrain>5ms or 2ms response time ... where are the times that you could pick between 12ms and 5ms ... 2ms ... omg ...
17:38-!-ludde [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:39<Sacro|Laptop>< TrueBrain> ...mine is finally bigger than his :p
17:39<SpComb>they found a new way to measure the figures
17:39<TrueBrain>I was wondering who would put it out of context
17:39<TrueBrain>tnx Sacro|Laptop
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>cheers for totally obvious out of context quote...
17:39<Sacro|Laptop>[22:37] <TrueBrain> but I am afraid I need to get back 1 meter more from the screen when I get them any bigger :p <-huge breasts?
17:40<TrueBrain>really, you are, what, 5 years old?
17:40<TrueBrain>Warning: mysql_select_db() [function.mysql-select-db]: Access denied for user 'apache'@'localhost' (using password: NO) in
17:40<TrueBrain>sounds bad ..
17:40<Sacro|Laptop>TrueBrain: no, just imature
17:40<TrueBrain>(not OpenTTD related website)
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like your average dictionary attack...
17:42<TrueBrain>well, I tried to logon on my NNTP service website
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>ah... well... i think i'll postpone automatically reading the include paths...
17:45<TrueBrain>Network status: all services are up and running
17:45<TrueBrain>I hate those 'static' status pages ...
17:46<TrueBrain>bah, now I can't download a movie to watch tonight :(
17:47<TrueBrain>yes :) Most useful protocol ever
17:47<TrueBrain>binaries at 100 mbit/sec
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17:49-!-fonso [] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.7 :]
17:49<@petern>It's a pretty crap protocol for binary files.
17:49<TrueBrain>torrent is worse ;)
17:50<TrueBrain>well, protocol, yeah, you right :)
17:50<@petern>And kids these days think that's what usenet is for...
17:50<TrueBrain>availability is a better word ;)
17:51<fjb>Usenet gets more and more unreadable. :-(
17:51<TrueBrain>you don't want to read usenet :p
17:51<fjb>Not all of it.
17:52<TrueBrain>I can't remmeber I ever read a single article from usenet :p
17:53*fjb feels sorry for TrueBrain.
17:53<TrueBrain>is there any useful there? :)
17:53<@petern>There would be if it wasn't full of spam and binaries.
17:53<TrueBrain>still ... people use maillists nowedays :)
17:54<TrueBrain>also full of spam, nevertheless :p
17:54<@petern>Once upon time, it was easy to get usenet access.
17:54<@petern>These days you need to find a provider that does it.
17:54<+glx>I don't have access to alt.bin*
17:54<TrueBrain>test-access is very easy here too
17:55<@petern>There is so much shit that providing an NNTP service is out the question for many ISPs.
17:56*petern wonders what the bandwidth figures are like these days.
17:56<TrueBrain>petern: here they only remove the binaries .. text is still working fine from almost all dutch ISPs (as far as I can track it :p)
17:57-!-Xerres [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
17:58<ln>the same here, virtually all ISPs provide newsgroups, but most of them have dropped binaries groups.
17:58<@petern>How many ISPs that provide newsgroup access actually provide their own servers, instead of just some alias to an NNTP provider?
17:59<TrueBrain>text-binaries is _very_ cheap to install
17:59<TrueBrain>a few GBs, and you have them all
17:59-!-Xerres [] has joined #openttd
18:03<ln>i'd say most have their own servers
18:03*petern doesn't know where or who to talk to to setup a feed :p
18:03-!-MOG [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:03-!-[alt]buster [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:03<TrueBrain>why would you want to
18:04-!-[alt]buster [] has joined #openttd
18:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14470 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_vehicle.cpp ai_vehicle.hpp ai_vehicle.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Add: added AIVehicle::GetRefitCapacity
18:04<@petern>Exactly. Why would I want to, and why would any other ISP want to?
18:04<ln>newsgroups are an excellent place for the mentally ill to express themselves.
18:04<TrueBrain>are you as person an ISP? :p
18:05<@petern>In this context, yes.
18:05<TrueBrain>hehe, fair enough :)
18:05<TrueBrain>I got the request several times already, if there was NNTP access ..
18:06<TrueBrain>but getting a text-feed is relative easy
18:06<TrueBrain>binary-feed costs money :p
18:07<@petern>I wouldn't consider a binary feed.
18:08<TrueBrain>leave that to the big boys :)
18:08*Sacro|Laptop is a big boy
18:08<TrueBrain>We are not an end-user ISP, so we don't do NNTP (of any kind)
18:09*petern is going to sleep
18:10<TrueBrain>night petern
18:10<TrueBrain>enjoy your sleep :)
18:11<TrueBrain>currently there is 3.8 TB of usenet data :p
18:11<TrueBrain>(per day)
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18:17<fjb>How much is it without binaries?
18:19<TrueBrain>I am looking for the last 30 minutes for a page which says that
18:19<TrueBrain>can't find it :(
18:19<TrueBrain>(I had one in the past, but I lost it :()
18:20<TrueBrain>so I thought, I just install a server, and load up the non-binaries
18:21<TrueBrain>but the only server-software I can find, is from 2004 :p
18:21-!-Yeggstry [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:21<fjb>Hm inn?
18:22<TrueBrain>as I said, 2004 :)
18:22<fjb>Then it is stable. :-)
18:23<TrueBrain>like qmail :s
18:23<fjb>2008-07-10: INN 2.4.5
18:23<fjb>New INN from this year.
18:24<TrueBrain>yeah, security fixes ..
18:26<fjb>What else do you want?
18:26<fjb>I never missed a feature in INN.
18:27<TrueBrain>it is not about that ... as I said: like qmail :p
18:27<TrueBrain>qmail is nice and all .. but it is old
18:27<TrueBrain>it misses new technoligies
18:27-!-Yeggstry [] has joined #openttd
18:27-!-Xerres [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:28<fjb>But what new technology is needed for an nntp server. Nntp is an old protocol.
18:29<TrueBrain>still .. I can't believe there is nothing to do for it :)
18:29-!-Xerres [] has joined #openttd
18:29<TrueBrain>OpenTTD is an old game
18:29<TrueBrain>yet here we are :)
18:29<TrueBrain>but okay, if you have INN installed, you can tell me the size of non-binaries ;)
18:29-!-Gekz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:30<fjb>But there are still some things people miss in OpenTTD. Do you miss anything in INN? Spamfilters are external tools.
18:30<TrueBrain>same was said about qmail .. yet exim is much more popular nowedays :)
18:31<fjb>I don't have INN installed at the moment. That is planed for next month (since about three years).
18:31<TrueBrain>hahaha :)
18:31<TrueBrain>too bad my remote NNTP server is still not responding :(
18:32<fjb>A lot of things got added to smtp. Nntp is different. Still I don't know what people like about exim.
18:32-!-Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:32<TrueBrain>it is not what I personally like about exim, it is more what I dislike about qmail :)
18:33<TrueBrain>in general it is bad to have the need to patch up qmail with N patches
18:33<TrueBrain>they tend to make things slightly unstable ;)
18:33<fjb>I never used qmail.
18:33<fjb>Yes, too much patching is not good. See OpenTTD *in.
18:35-!-Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
18:37<fjb>I'm using Postfix for mail. I does everything I need and it is really fast.
18:39<TrueBrain>I dislike Postfix very much
18:40<@SmatZ>what are you using then ?
18:40<@SmatZ>just curious :)
18:40<fjb>Exim. :-)
18:40<@SmatZ>ok, never tried it :)
18:40<TrueBrain>as my father will say: the best of the worst
18:40<TrueBrain>exim4 is kind of the default in a new install
18:40<TrueBrain>debian even installs it without you wanting ;)
18:41<@SmatZ>sounds windows-like :)
18:41<@SmatZ>it's full of stuff noone wants
18:41<@SmatZ>but nah, debian is very fine :)
18:41<fjb>Sendmail is cool. I once thought about teaching it game of life.
18:42<TrueBrain>I dislike debian, but for other reasons :) It install exim is in fact fine, yes
18:42<TrueBrain>Gentoo still does sendmail
18:42<vvv444>Only way to get just the software you want is installing LFS :)
18:42<fjb>Sendmail is not bad if you know how to handle it.
18:43<TrueBrain>fjb: you know you contradict yourself there? :p
18:43<TrueBrain>vvv444: you also might want to try Gentoo
18:43<TrueBrain>does nothing you don't want
18:44<fjb>No, there are some corner cases where sendmail may be the only way to go.
18:44<@SmatZ>Gentoo is the best of course ;-)
18:44<TrueBrain>fjb: I was more talking about: "not bad" against "know how to handle"
18:44<vvv444>I haven't said I use LFS, it's quite suicidal. I just said any other distro will have some things you don't want. But you're right Gentoo is quite fine.
18:44<@SmatZ>best distro I ever used (not that I used more than 5 ;)
18:44<fjb>Gentoo sounds like Linux, so it can not be the best. :-P
18:45<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I agree with you there :) Trying out debian now again .. dislike it already :p (more exact: the defaults of Gentoo in general are SO MUCH BETTER)
18:45<TrueBrain>but okay, you need more time to do things in Gentoo ... specific: updating your system can be a pain in the ass :)
18:45<TrueBrain>(and drain your CPU :p)
18:45*Rubidium dislikes Gentoo's handling of remote exploits
18:46-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:46<@SmatZ>Rubidium: please explain :)
18:46<TrueBrain>Rubidium: why?
18:46<TrueBrain>glsa works fine
18:46*fjb starts to dislike Nut/OS.
18:46<@Rubidium> <- QED
18:46<@Rubidium>"We'll fix it when we fix it.
18:46<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you truly base that statement on one (!) report?
18:47<TrueBrain>nevertheless, they handled it fine
18:47<@SmatZ>yeah, Gentoo maintainter of openttd looks pretty dead :) so last official version is 0.5.3...
18:47<TrueBrain>the software was removed from normal use
18:47<@SmatZ>and yeah, it was masked
18:47<TrueBrain>just what SmatZ says, no maintainer
18:47<TrueBrain>reminds me, I really need to put up an ebuild for both stables and nightlies
18:47<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: and everybody who used OpenTTD has been left with an exploitable binary
18:48<TrueBrain>a nice layman overlay will do fine I guess
18:48<TrueBrain>Rubidium: no, when updating it tells you it is masked
18:48<TrueBrain>so you either need to remove it
18:48<TrueBrain>or override the mask
18:48<TrueBrain>either way, you know you will be using a program that has problems
18:48-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:48<TrueBrain>night Wolf01
18:49<vvv444>Rubidium: Everyone who cared indeed was welcome to compile latest version himself...
18:49<TrueBrain>Rubidium: in fact, when updating, it downgrades OpenTTD to 0.5.3
18:49<@Rubidium>and everyone who cared enough to make an updated ebuild got "silenced"
18:49<TrueBrain>and if that is faulty too, a CVE should be created to indicate 0.5.3 is bad :)
18:49<TrueBrain>Rubidium: maintainers are, as everywhere, a problem
18:49<TrueBrain>which you can't put in the shoes of Gentoo itself
18:50<TrueBrain>now you sound exactly like a few patch writers we hav ein this project
18:50<TrueBrain>because they can't get their patch in, OpenTTD is bad
18:50<TrueBrain>but as said, remind me tomorrow or so to produce Gentoo ebuilds
18:50<TrueBrain>then we are done with the whole problem all together :)
18:51<@SmatZ>Rubidium: emerge will tell you you have a masked binary installed
18:51<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: if "they" would've cared enough to read the reports they'd've found out 0.5.3 is bad too
18:52<fjb>Writing software without hardware or an emulator to run it on is no fun. :-(
18:52<TrueBrain>Rubidium: not by CVE
18:52<TrueBrain>poor fjb :)
18:52<@Rubidium>well, CVE just plainly sucks
18:52<fjb>Thank you.
18:53<TrueBrain>SmatZ: 0.5.3 is masked too?
18:53<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I start to think you think everything sucks? :)
18:53<@Rubidium> <- the description is fairly clear that 0.5.3 is affected too (at least to me)
18:53<TrueBrain>well, as SmatZ just showed, 0.5.3 is masked too, so they picked up :)
18:54<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: I don't think everything sucks, but a lot of things actually do suck
18:54<TrueBrain>now all is left is to find a girl who sucks .. hmm ..
18:56<TrueBrain>is it okay to put the gentoo ebuild overlay in svn?
18:56<TrueBrain>or do you want me to setup a seperate something for it?
18:56<@Rubidium>fine by me
18:57<@Rubidium>os/gentoo ?
18:57<TrueBrain>I would not advise putting it inside trunk
18:57<TrueBrain>it needs to be seperate
18:57<TrueBrain>as it will contain a complete overlay, with all available versions
18:57<TrueBrain>(that is how Gentoo ebuild system works)
18:57-!-Xerres [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:58<TrueBrain>that means users do: layman svn://....
18:58<TrueBrain>and they can do: emerge openttd
18:58<TrueBrain>(well, not that black-and-white, but the basic idea :p)
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19:00<@Rubidium>anyhow, reason CVE sucks: release notes saying that it might eventually be possible to overflow internal buffer with max 2 bytes with constant values (with proof it doesn't actually happen as of now) gets a CVE report and then when you've got full proof of a remotely exploitable buffer overrun of ~1300 bytes with lots of exploiter "configurable" bytes gets no CVE report
19:02<TrueBrain>ah, my NNTP is back online
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19:06<TrueBrain> # Don't pre-strip binaries (bug #137822)
19:06<TrueBrain> sed -i -e '/+= -s$/s/-s//' Makefile || die "sed failed"
19:08<fjb>Hm, what OS would you recomment to do real time stuff on an arm7?
19:09<@Rubidium>0.5 NDS ;)
19:10<fjb>Why Linux? Is that not a bit heavy fpr an arm7? At least it has preemtive multitasking.
19:10<fjb>What is NDS?
19:11<@Rubidium>when I start explaining it isn't funny anymore
19:12-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:12<TrueBrain>hmm ... I know too little about Gentoo FHS policy ...
19:12<fjb>Hm, sounds like something to play games.
19:13<fjb>What about ecos? looks nice but I didn't try it yet.
19:14<@SmatZ>[00:58:02] <TrueBrain> that means users do: layman svn://.... <=== good idea :)
19:14<@SmatZ>sorry I was away
19:14<@Rubidium>bah, can't find the name of the OS used by the largest number of devices
19:15<@SmatZ>and now I am in bed, nn all :)
19:15<TrueBrain>night SmatZ
19:15<vvv444>fjb: All ARM projects I had taken part at haven't used OS. Not necessary for small projects.
19:15<@Rubidium>it's ITRON
19:16<fjb>Itron is more an API than an OS, afaik. Ecos supports ITRON Api.
19:17<fjb>I need an OS, network stack, http server etc...
19:17<vvv444>Well, if so Linux is good :)
19:18<@Rubidium>what are the rough specs (rom/ram)
19:18*vvv444 heard of uClinux but never tried it
19:18<fjb>The OS they gave me is solely to suport its network stack. It is designed for small embedded webservers and the vendor references its kernel as rtos. But it uses cooperative multitasking. :-(
19:19<fjb>256K flash rom and 64k ram.
19:19<fjb>48MHz arm7.
19:19<ln>err... 64k ram is definitely not enough for linux.
19:20<fjb>And there must be enough ram left for the application. thought it will not need that much.
19:21<@Rubidium>I'd say take a look at the list at the bottom of
19:21<TrueBrain>Rubidium: be glad the 0.6.3 ebuild is not accepted
19:21<fjb>Proposed os is Nut/OS:
19:21<TrueBrain>it still uses old makefile thingies :s
19:22<fjb>Rubidium: Thank you.
19:22<TrueBrain>unicode for linux, useful or not?
19:23<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: yes
19:23<@Rubidium>unless you want to get flamed by the russians, chinese, japanese and many eastern europeans
19:24<TrueBrain>by default unicode is OFF on linux
19:24<fjb>Hm, Nut/OS fails almost the whole description on
19:25<TrueBrain> echo " --disable-unicode disable unicode support to build win9x"
19:25<TrueBrain> echo " version (Win32 ONLY)"
19:25<TrueBrain>so I guess it is useless in linux :p
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19:34<Sacro|Laptop>sigh, autotools confuse me
19:35<TrueBrain>reason we don't use htem :p
19:35<TrueBrain>looks like a weird dir to me
19:41<Sacro|Laptop>needs more slashes
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19:48<TrueBrain>okay, I need to install an other game on Gentoo to see where they want the files :)
19:49<TrueBrain>we have /usr/share/games, and /usr/games/share ... how lvoely!
19:49<fjb>autotools tried to bite me.
19:55<Sacro|Laptop>TrueBrain: Arch is using /usr/share/openttd
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19:55<Sacro|Laptop>but I think /usr/share/games is most likely
19:55<TrueBrain>Sacro|Laptop: not useful, not one bit
19:55<TrueBrain>it is not a game of gamble
19:55<TrueBrain>each distro has rules for that
19:55<TrueBrain>might be suprising ;)
19:57<TrueBrain>hmm, you can't configure OpenTTD enough to make Gentoo happy
19:57<TrueBrain>I have to say, it is a bit weird, install dir stuff :)
19:57<TrueBrain>INSTALL_ICON_DIR = "$(INSTALL_DIR)/"/share/pixmaps
19:57<TrueBrain>I can configure one, but not the other ;)
19:58<TrueBrain>oh, icon-dir ..
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19:59<ovi>hello, could somebody help me out with a server issue?
19:59<Sacro|Laptop>TrueBrain: hmm, I wrote the build files for ArchLinux
19:59<TrueBrain>Sacro|Laptop: my point is, Arch != Gentoo
20:00<TrueBrain>ovi: you are always free to ask :)
20:00<ovi>thank you so much
20:00<Sacro|Laptop>TrueBrain: Arch > Gentoo
20:00<ovi>I am trying to start a server and my friend cannot see me
20:00<ovi>what am I doing wrong?
20:00<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
20:00<ovi>I opened the ports in the router
20:01<TrueBrain>Sacro|Laptop: for example, Gentoo puts games in /usr/games/share and /usr/share/games .. what should go in what is slightly vague, but I got it :)
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>did you forward them to the server machine?
20:01<TrueBrain>(the dir /usr/share/openttd is VERY invalid ;))
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>TrueBrain: that's stupid
20:01<ovi>how do I do that?
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>why is /usr/share/openttd invalid?
20:01<TrueBrain>we call that a policy
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/bin/
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/bin/openttd
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/applications/
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/applications/openttd.desktop
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/doc/
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/doc/openttd/
20:01<TrueBrain>@kick Sacro|Laptop SPAM!
20:01<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/doc/openttd/32bpp.txt
20:01-!-Sacro|Laptop was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [SPAM!]
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20:02<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/openttd.16.png
20:02<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/
20:02<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/
20:02<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps/openttd.256.png
20:02<TrueBrain>@kban 30 Sacro|Laptop SPAM!
20:02<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: 30 is not in #openttd.
20:02<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/
20:02<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/
20:02<Sacro|Laptop>openttd /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/openttd.32.png
20:02<TrueBrain>@kban Sacro|Laptop 30 SPAM!
20:02-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] by DorpsGek
20:02-!-Sacro|Laptop was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [SPAM!]
20:02<TrueBrain>I hate clients which resume their paste after a kick ...
20:02-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] by DorpsGek
20:03<ovi>hey guys, how do I forward the ports to the server?
20:03<TrueBrain>read the manual of your router
20:03<ovi>I did that, in the router and I opened the ports but still no luck
20:03<TrueBrain>while opening, you tell the router to where to forward
20:03<TrueBrain>make sure that is okay
20:04<ovi>it will work in the LAN but not over the net
20:04<vvv444>ovi: 1. Have you ensured router restart isn't required after configuration update?
20:04<ovi>I did not try that, I will give it a shot
20:04<ovi>I have the ewire router
20:05<vvv444>ovi: 2. Does the computer you are trying to connect to has DHCP address?
20:05<vvv444>ovi: 3. If you give the router model maybe I can help you more.
20:05<ovi>it is a computer in Romania, but nobody can see me
20:05<ovi>just a sec
20:06<vvv444>Do you know what DHCP is at all?
20:06<ovi>ewire 3800HGV
20:06<ovi>no, What isDHCP?
20:06<vvv444>What OS does the comp have?
20:06-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
20:06<ovi>windows XP
20:07-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
20:07<@orudge>Hello all
20:07-!-Sacro|Laptop [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
20:07*Sacro|Laptop dances
20:08<TrueBrain>Sacro|Laptop: to continue where we left off: each distro has its own policy. That is not silly, that is how the facts are
20:08<Sacro|Laptop>yes it is silly
20:08<Sacro|Laptop>they should follow the LSB
20:08<vvv444>ovi: Just a sec.
20:08<ln>the LSD?
20:08<TrueBrain>yeah, sure, the world should work in your image ..
20:08<TrueBrain>what is wrong with people today :(
20:10<TrueBrain>bah, all the prefixing ...
20:13<TrueBrain>should be /usr/games, but that fails as man pages should go to /usr/share
20:13<Sacro|Laptop>that's weird
20:14<Sacro|Laptop>can't the gentoo chaps write their own ebuild?
20:14<TrueBrain>which OpenTTD doesn't have (manpath)
20:14<TrueBrain>they did .. and it is wrong
20:15<Sacro|Laptop>the old ArchLinux pkgbuild have 5 lines of sed ><
20:15<Sacro|Laptop>./configure --prefix-dir=/usr --binary-dir=/bin --icon-dir=/share/pixmaps --data-dir=/share/openttd --personal-dir=/.openttd --install-dir=$startdir/pkg/
20:15<Sacro|Laptop>is what we are using now
20:16<TrueBrain>personal-dir is wrong
20:16<Sacro|Laptop>seeing as there is a lack of DESTDIR
20:16<Sacro|Laptop>what shoul it be?
20:16<TrueBrain>just .openttd
20:17<Sacro|Laptop>that is .openttd
20:17<Sacro|Laptop>well ~/.openttd
20:17<TrueBrain>then don't paste /.openttd
20:17<Sacro|Laptop>can't be bothered to change it
20:20<TrueBrain>annoying that data-dir is always prefixed with 'prefix'
20:22<TrueBrain>turns out I do not need to worry so much
20:22<TrueBrain>'make install' is never executed :p
20:25<TrueBrain>hmm ... what is the difference between shared dir and global data dir?
20:25<Sacro|Laptop>is shared 1777?
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20:29<+glx><TrueBrain> hmm ... what is the difference between shared dir and global data dir? <-- probably a windows thing
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20:32<TrueBrain>tnx glx
20:32<TrueBrain>so lets try my little ebuild ..
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20:41<TrueBrain>good night
20:41<TrueBrain>Sacro|Laptop: tnx for your input nevertheless :)
20:42<Sacro|Laptop>TrueBrain: yay :)
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20:45<TrueBrain>oh, my ebuild works btw, and it seems to put the files in the right place :)
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20:55<fjb>Good night and have fun.
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20:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14471 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_vehicle.cpp: [NoAI] -Codechange: simplify some AIVehicle functions and store value returned by ::GetVehicle() when it's used multiple times
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 16 00:00:01 2008