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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-10-30

---Logopened Thu Oct 30 00:00:07 2008
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00:14<ccfreak2k>Why are there never cars or people in any ttd cities?
00:16<eMJay>they're all reclusive
00:16<Aali>they're inside, playing ttd
00:16<eMJay>and waiting at stations, to visit their friends houses to play ttd
00:17<eMJay>(the internet hasn't been invented)
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00:18<ccfreak2k>Maybe someone should make trucks or trains to move packets around.
00:18<Aali>actually you could deliver a thousand people to a road tile if you really wanted to
00:20<eMJay>damn that would be slow internet :P
00:21<ccfreak2k>Fine. Maybe I'll just buy all the land around your town and let it whither and die.
00:21<eMJay>can anyone explain to me how a helicopter can have a next()?
00:21<eMJay>let alone a next()->next()?
00:21<ccfreak2k>Good question.
00:22<ccfreak2k>I guess it's to clarify that you don't want next()->previous() or something.
00:24<eMJay>I'm looking the todo in Doxygen
00:24<eMJay>looking at*
00:27<eMJay>And from the code in aircraft_cmd.cpp, the higher the speed the slower the rotors spin?
00:31<+glx>eMJay: helicopter->shadow->rotor
00:32<+glx>that's why it can carry passengers and mail
00:33<+glx>and good night
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01:57<ln>schönen guten morgen
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04:07-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
04:07<@Celestar>good morning
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04:12<ln>a morning in Australia, too
04:13<Gekz>it's not morning.
04:14<Char>depends on where you are
04:14<Char>and since i guess that quite some of us live in europe....
04:15<@Celestar>China has now officially admitted that they produce more greenhouse gases than any other nation on this planet and expect to at least double that value till 2030.
04:16<Char>clima catastrophe hip-hip-hoooray.
04:16<@Celestar>they also officially don't care (apparently)
04:16<@petern>well they do have a lot of people
04:17<Char>the problem is
04:17<Char>as long as the USA continue their current policy
04:17<Char>there is no reason to care for china
04:17<@Celestar>it's not the USA's fault that China doesn't give a damn
04:17<@Celestar>China wouldn't give a damn if the US had NO emmission whatsoever
04:18<Char>now the problem is
04:18<Char>the USA are far more developed
04:18<Char>and the USA say
04:18<Char>well, we will not reduce our CO2 emissions if it harms our economic growth
04:18<Char>the US economy is in a much better shape than chinas
04:19<Char>now why would china say "hey great, guys, you do not care, but we do" ?
04:19<Char>their argument kinda is
04:20<@Celestar>I'm by far no supported of the US policy; but saying it's ther US fault/problem than China is now the biggest polluter is kinda far-fetched
04:20<Char>"you have been spending years emitting greenhouse gases like crazy, and now you want us, who are much less developed, to not emit them?"
04:20<Char>no, i am not saying that
04:21<Char>i am just saying that the US policy does nothing to help the international community convince china to reduce greenhouse gas emisions
04:21<@Celestar>it's solely China's fault, and it's solely China's responsibility to remedy the situation.
04:22<Char>hmmm. so you don't see my point?
04:22<@Celestar>and with any decent policy, greenhouse-gas-reduction doesn't affect economic growth.
04:22<Char>it does
04:22<Char>not much, but it does
04:22<@Celestar>it needn't
04:22<@Celestar>only if you do it wrong.-
04:22<@Celestar>like, for example, germany
04:23<Char>it does
04:23<Char>it has to
04:23<@Celestar>er why?
04:23<Char>if you are trying to optimize for the most economic growth
04:23<Char>and then you are adding an additional restriction (like, lower greenhouse gas emission)
04:24<Char>then you get a new "optimal solution" for what you should do
04:24<Char>now, it is theoretically possible that the new optimal solution has the same economic growth
04:24<@Celestar>just use non-greenhouse-gas-producing power plants and most of the problem is solved.
04:24<Char>it cannot be that the economic growth is higher (cause otherwise, you could have taken that solution in the non-restricted scenario)
04:25<Char>but chances are VERY high that the new optimal solution is worse
04:25<Char>i mean
04:25<@Celestar>I quite disagree there
04:25<Char>i see that a greenhouse gas reduction policy is a very good idea
04:26<Char>hmmmm. you may disagree, however, this is basic optimization theory ;)
04:26<Char>although i have to admit that the current policy is far from optimal as well ;)
04:26<Char>with regards to economic growth
04:27<@Celestar>Char: the thing is: the energy production with the lower greenhouse gas emmission is accidently also the energy production with the lowest cost.
04:27<Char>and yes, if done decently, the effect on economic growth is quite low, i guess
04:27<Char>you are voting for nuclear power plants here?
04:28<@Celestar>of course
04:29<Char>that got its own subtle problems
04:29<Char>besides, you cannot support more than like 60% of your energy consumption with nuclear power.
04:29<@Celestar>yes. but there is not the faintest chance that we even remotely meet our own goals without BUILDING ADDITIONAL nuclear power plants
04:30<Char>and, btw, coming back to china, their attitude towards greenhouse gases probably is like "why should we give a shit and care about it when noone else does, especially those who are far more developed than us".
04:30<@petern>china has nuclear power plants under construction
04:30<@Celestar>Char: they wouldn't give a shit even with everyone else caring
04:31<Char>well, but that is because economic growth still is the holy grail for any kind of politics.... which i think is stupid in the long term
04:32<@Celestar>economic growth is required.
04:32<Char>Celestar: well, you know that for sure? probably true, but at least you could pressure them if the rest of the world would be trying very hard to reduce greenhouse gases. but with economic growth being more important than the general health of this planet....
04:32<Char>Celestar: for what?
04:32<@Celestar>Char: keeping people employed
04:33<Char>why cant people be employed in a stable economy (non-growing)?
04:33<Char>well, yeah, i know, it currently works like that
04:33<@Celestar>Char: it inherently works like that
04:33<Char>but economy cannot grow forever
04:33<@Celestar>growth means life, stagnation means death.
04:33<@Celestar>Stagnation is NEVER good
04:34<Char>just thinking logically, there will be times when the economic growth either comes to a halt or we have a depression
04:34<Char>there is like an "upper limit"
04:34<Char>there must be
04:34<Char>probably we are still far from it, though
04:35<@Celestar>In any kind of economy there will be at least some kind of increase in efficiency, thus productivity increases. Unless the economic growth matches the productivity increases, jobs will be lost.
04:35<Char>or we all have to work less
04:35<Char>and enjoy more leisure time
04:36<@Celestar>yes, and you get into a vicious circle...
04:36<Char>i know it currently works like this
04:36<Char>i am just saying
04:36<Char>maybe we should think of other options
04:36<Char>and try to be less narrow-minded
04:36<@Celestar>Char: trying to freeze a state of a system is not an option
04:37<Char>i am not
04:37<@Celestar>a non-growing economy is a kind of system freeze
04:38<Char>not necessarily
04:38<@Celestar>let me generalize: a non-growing state will not exist.
04:38<@Celestar>it's either up or down
04:38<Char>its just that other things change, not the gross national product
04:39<Char>btw, another option is to have a stable economy, but reduce the amount of people
04:39<@Celestar>let's talk Gross Human Product
04:39<Char>like china does with its single-child policy
04:39<@Celestar>he. china still has population growth
04:39<Char>i know
04:39<Char>but they significantly reduced it
04:39<Char>and also
04:39<Char>the point is that the one-child policy is not as effective anymore
04:40<@Celestar>I don't think telling people how many kinds they are supposed to have is the way to go
04:40<Char>because all those children who have no siblings now grow up
04:40<Char>and if two of them marry, they may have more than one child
04:41<Char>well, i dont think having uncontrolled population growth is the way to go either
04:41<@Celestar>there will always be population growth of some sort
04:41<@Celestar>and I don't think that's a bad thing per se
04:41<Char>until the earth is either uninhabitable
04:41<@Rubidium>aren't orphans (due to the one child policy) the major export product of china?
04:41<Char>or we get world war III
04:42<@Celestar>Char: there are other ways
04:42<Char>and i am pretty sure one of those things will happen in my lifetime
04:42<Char>probably world war III
04:42<@Celestar>I do not share your pessimistic appraisal of the situation
04:42<Char>Rubidium: no idea
04:43<Char>Celestar: you don't have to ;)
04:43<Char>and btw
04:43<Char>i do think that constant population growth is a bad thing in the long run
04:43<Char>because i do not think that this earth is able to support 14+ billion people
04:43<Char>and i also think that if we were only like one billion
04:43<Char>lots of things would be much easier
04:43<@Rubidium>Char: that highly depends on the resource usage
04:44<Char>point is
04:44<Char>if we were only one billion
04:44<@Celestar>Char: Earth is not the only planet
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04:44<@Rubidium>if everyone would act like an American (the USA kind of American) the earth only supports roughly 1 billion people
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04:44<Char>we could use up 14 times the ressources that we could use up if we were 14 billion
04:44<@Celestar>Rubidium: using current technology.
04:44<Char>Celestar: currently, the earth is the only freaking earth we have
04:45<Char>and the next earth-like planet is at least ~50 light years away
04:45<@Celestar>Char: yes. hence there's need to extend our grasp
04:45<Char>which means, we will not reach them within the next ~200-1000 years for sure
04:45<@Celestar>Char: Mars is Earth-like enough to support many billions on the long run
04:45<Char>yeah, go for it, i would not want to live on mars.
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04:46<Char>cause.... you know....
04:46<ln>expensive DSL connections, because of the little number of ISPs.
04:47<@Rubidium>internet lags a lot
04:47<Char>i like sitting under autum-yellow trees in the warm september sun hugging and kissing my girlfriend without caring about fuck like my oxygen supply
04:47<@Celestar>Char: Mars can be terraformed
04:47<Char>they still miss an atmosphere
04:47<@Celestar>which can be generated
04:48<Char>mars is not heavy enough to keep it as far as i know
04:48<@Celestar>yes and no
04:48<@Celestar>depends on the atmosphere and the timescales
04:48<Char>there is a zone around each sun which is inhabitable
04:48<@Celestar>it would have to be resupplied at regular intervals probably (regular intervals being about 1% in a million years)
04:48<Char>mars isnt in it
04:49<@Celestar>Char: there are THREE planets in Sol's habitable zone
04:49<Char>okay fine
04:49<@Celestar>soon, there will be two, since the HabZone of every star moves outward.
04:49<ln>Char: what's wrong with sitting under summer-pink trees in warm marstober sun hugging your girlfriend's space helmet?
04:49<Char>still, we are not getting to an inhabitable mars within the next 1000 years
04:49<Char>which means for me
04:49<@Celestar>Char: Venus, Earth and Mars.
04:49<Char>stick to the earth for now
04:49<@Celestar>Char: it's exactly that kind of thinking that will get us stuck forever.
04:49<Char>ln: the space helmet
04:50<Char>you know, i like body contact
04:50<@Celestar>even about 20 years after the first landing, there wouldn't be space helmets for most of the time.
04:50<Char>Celestar: no. i am completely willing to accept that you might at some point be able to live on mars
04:50<Char>i just wouldnt count on it for now
04:50<@Celestar>Char: not count. But start acting.
04:51<Char>go ahead
04:51<Char>USA are
04:51<@Celestar>Char: Earth is way to small a basket for mankind to put all its eggs in.
04:51<@Celestar>they're not really.
04:51<@Celestar>Char: one 10km-asteroid and we're goners
04:52<@Celestar>at least, 95% of us at least
04:52<Char>i guess its easier to survey the space around us for asteroids
04:52<Char>than to go for mars, but well
04:52<@Celestar>Char: what will that survey help?
04:52<@Celestar>Char: brace for impact?
04:53<Char>if you see the asteroids early enough
04:53<Char>you can change their path
04:53<@Celestar>Provided to have space fusion reactors and a crew that installs some driver onto the asteroid.
04:54<Char>the risk of being hit within the next 1000 years is like.... extremely low
04:54<Char>not really
04:54<Char>there is a variety of options
04:54<Char>you can for example try to install solar panels and get driven by solar wind
04:54<@Celestar>Char: Since 2000, we've been hit by half a dozen of asteroids that all exceed the explosive force of the largest Hbomb ever tested.
04:55<@Celestar>Char: that doesn't work for a 1km+ asteroid.
04:55<Char>and did it hurt us?
04:55<Char>it does, if you do it early enough
04:55<@Celestar>Char: no cuz they went down over water.
04:55<@Celestar>Char: Early enough in this case means >1 century.
04:55<Char>so survey more space
04:55<@Celestar>how are we getting the solar sails there?
04:56<@Celestar>we need a crew.
04:56<Char>train one
04:56<ln>bruce willis would volunteer.
04:56<@Celestar>Char: and it would need a 25-year journey at least.
04:56<Char>you could use robots
04:56<@Rubidium>asteroid and >1 century... doesn't that mean that they are coming directly from the Oort belt?
04:56<Char>makes quite some things a lot easier
04:57<@Celestar>Rubidium: several of the heavy hitters are.
04:57<Char>Celestar: by the way, just a side question: what are you doing in reallife?
04:57<@petern>coding ottd :D
04:57<@Celestar>Char: doing my PhD in mechanical engineering (computational fluid dynamics for gas turbine application)
04:57<@Rubidium>then when you notice them you need to send something to that direction and interception will take eons
04:57<@petern>hmm, date: 16 aug 2008
04:58<@petern>well, these drives are not too old :D
04:58<Char>Celestar: well... i am about to start a phd in measurement and control technology ;)
04:58<@Celestar>Rubidium: if we say one year, a solar sail will not be enough. You need at least a nuclear electric rocket.
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04:58<@Celestar>Char: my Major is aerospace engineering and power plants.
04:58*dih hugs Belugas
04:58<Char>sounds like you got an idea what you are talking about
04:59<@Celestar>because I don't always like what I see :P
04:59<Char>i would still not count on mars to live on
04:59<@Celestar>er not for us.
04:59<Char>if you say like 95% death
04:59<Char>from a heavy hitter
04:59<@Celestar>a 10km would do so
04:59<Char>and now you shift some people to mars
05:00<@Celestar>That won't help.
05:00<Char>you still got 95% death
05:00<Char>and 10.000 people watching from mars
05:00<@Rubidium>just "call" the Asgard ;)
05:00<@Celestar>we need the Mars colony to launch a deflection mission from there.
05:00<@Celestar>it's much easier from there.
05:00<@Celestar>everything we need is there.
05:01<@Celestar>and the Delta-V for such a mission is a fraction of what you need from earth.
05:01<Char>a 10km monster is a once-in-100.000.000-years-occurrence, right?
05:01<@Celestar>Char: once in 60 million years. Last occurence was 65 million years ago
05:01<Char>uhmmm.... okay
05:01<@Rubidium>Celestar: that's a hefty task for the few robots on there
05:01<Char>that is, if you shoot directly
05:01<Char>why cant you use a swing-by-maneuver?
05:02<Char>which has pretty much the same effect
05:02<Char>just takes a year longer
05:02<@Celestar>a 4m asteroid (Hiroshima-equivalent) has 1/year frequency.
05:02<@Celestar>Char: because you need most of the Delta-V to get into Earth's orbit.
05:02<Char>Celestar: so.... that means chances are high we still got another one or ten million years :)
05:03<@Celestar>a 40m asteroid (Tsar Bomba) has a 1/400 years occurence. wrong place => 500 "Megadeaths"
05:03<Char>tsar boma?
05:03<@Celestar>the biggest H-Bomb ever tested.
05:03<@Rubidium>can we vote where the asteroid will hit?
05:04<@Celestar>Rubidium: we can, but chances are the astroid will care not :P
05:04<Char>to be honest, i think we have more important problems to take care of than an asteroid from space
05:05<@Celestar>Char: the thing is: there are about 200 000 estimated Near-Earth-Objects bigger than 100 meters. ALL of them will hit sooner or later.
05:05<Char>cause that problem is very unlikely to really become a problem
05:05<Char>on the other hand, the climate is very likely to become a problem
05:05<@Celestar>Char: Space is able to provide us with solutions to many earth-bound problems, mostly: Energy, Thirst and Hunger.
05:05<Char>Celestar: good thing is: most of them will hit later
05:05<@Rubidium>Celestar: with hit you mean any celestial body, right?
05:05<@Celestar>Rubidium: hit Earth.
05:06<@Celestar>Rubidium: "Near-Earth" objects.
05:06<Char>most of them are under control
05:06<Char>i.e. their paths are calculated
05:06<Char>or not?
05:06<@Rubidium>that's orbit of object intersects orbit of earth, right?
05:07<@Celestar>er. about 190 000 are not even calatogued yet.
05:07<Char>and still, i would better have the problems of earth taken care of on earth
05:07<@Celestar>Rubidium: or come close enough for Earth's gravity to become paramount.
05:07<Char>cause earth is able to give solutions to these problems as well
05:07<@Celestar>Char: Space will/could also provide a clean and almost infinite energy source.
05:07<Char>it is much simpler
05:07<@Rubidium>so they can, if we're lucky, hit other planets or the sun
05:07<@Rubidium>or even the moon
05:08<@Rubidium>which is probably the biggest NEO ;)
05:08<@Celestar>Rubidium: Moon is an option. Mars is an option. Due to the sizes, about 90+% will hit earth :)
05:08<Char>whatever. i need some breakfast.
05:08<@Celestar>Rubidium: Moon is moving way from earth.
05:08<@Celestar>at about 1cm/year
05:08<@Celestar>that's why the Earth's rotation is getting slower and slower
05:09<@Celestar>in due time, one earth's day will be about 28 or our current days.
05:09<@Celestar>maybe more.
05:09<@Celestar>should be more
05:09<@Celestar>gotta recompute that once.
05:10<@petern>we won't be worrying about global warming then
05:10<@Celestar>maybe planetmaker has the solution at hand ;)
05:10<ln>finally the extra hours per day i've been hoping for.
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05:10<@Celestar>ln: yeah \o/
05:10<@Celestar>petern: we will, because the sun's luminosity increases permanently
05:10<@Celestar>not much, but not little enough not to notice ;)
05:12<@Celestar>frankly, we have little idea about what influences the climate.
05:12<@Celestar>if you make 100 simulations, you get 100 different results :(
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05:19<Gekz>Celestar: what is the timeframe for this extension of the day
05:20<@Celestar>Gekz: I think about a microsecond per year or so
05:20<Gekz>not enough to make me happy
05:20<Gekz>I was hoping before I died it would be 4 hours
05:20<Gekz>and I have nothing against lowering emissions whether or not its causing warming
05:20<Gekz>they're too high
05:21<Gekz>look at China
05:21<@petern>oh i was only.... 28 hours from tulsa
05:21<@Celestar>Gekz: I quite agree.
05:22<@Celestar>"As a result of the conservation of angular momentum, the increasing semimajor axis of the Moon is accompanied by a gradual slowing of the Earth's rotation by about 0.002 seconds per day per century.[52]"
05:22<@Celestar>great unit :P
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05:30<@Celestar>Char: where is your PhD taking place?
05:32<@Celestar>ah nice
05:32<Char>where is yours?
05:32<ln>utf-8 only -- zürich
05:32<planetmaker>[10:29] <Gekz> [10:19:52] Celestar: what is the timeframe for this extension of the day <--- 1 Milliseconds per century
05:32<planetmaker>actually. I meant to write 2 Milliseconds :P
05:33<@Celestar>planetmaker: so my microsecond per year was only about a OOM of :)
05:33<Char>planetmaker: not trying to make you unhappy but
05:33<Char><@Celestar> "As a result of the conservation of angular momentum, the increasing semimajor axis of the Moon is accompanied by a gradual slowing of the Earth's rotation by about 0.002 seconds per day per century.[52]"
05:33<planetmaker>Just saw it then.
05:33<Char>whats utf-8?
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05:33<planetmaker>a search-warrant for wikipedia :P
05:34<@Celestar>planetmaker: so when we achieve mutual tidal lock between Earth and Luna, what will the rotation speed of Earth be?
05:34<@Celestar>Char: what OS are you on?
05:34<planetmaker>dunno, Celestar.
05:34<@Celestar>planetmaker: pity :P
05:34<@Celestar>let's compute? ;)
05:34<Char>Celestar: win xp
05:34<Char>char: why?
05:34<@Celestar>UTF-8 is some encoding system.
05:35<@Celestar>"codepage" for DOS/WIN talk
05:35<planetmaker>but much longer than 28 days as increasing lunar distance will increase the lunar month - which then will have to be an Earthian day
05:35<@Celestar>planetmaker: yeah, I noticed that later too (=
05:35<Char>Celestar: still, you did not answer where your PhD is taking place
05:35<@Celestar>Char: Munich
05:35<Char>Celestar: thats not too far from here, then
05:35<@Celestar>not at all
05:35<@Celestar>unless you use a train :(
05:37<@Rubidium>or you walk ;) (2 days and 13 hours non-stop walking)
05:37<@Celestar>that's not much slower than the train.
05:37<@Celestar>They used to run Munich-Zürich with ICE-TDs
05:38<planetmaker>Celestar: but I have some doubts that it's worthwhile to calculate the time when Earth and moon will be both tidally locked - it will be after the Sun died.
05:38<@Rubidium>Celestar: "only" a little over 4 hours
05:38<@Celestar>planetmaker: I tihnk so
05:38<@Celestar>Rubidium: yes. or about 3 hours by car using normal driving
05:38<@Rubidium>that's ofcourse twice as much as with a car
05:39<@Celestar>4 != 2*3
05:39<@Rubidium>hmm, although... not much German autobahn
05:39<Char>the munich - zurich connection is pretty fucked up
05:39<Char>i used that a few times
05:39<Char>when i did my internship in munich
05:39<@Celestar>no. Munich-Lindau is fucked up. Lindau Zürich is actually quite ok
05:39<@Celestar>It's a single, non-electrified line
05:40<planetmaker>all ICE connections currently are f***d up.
05:40<@Celestar>planetmaker: those with ICE-Ts mostly
05:41<planetmaker>yeah. But it's a network... so ripples spread.
05:42<@Rubidium>planetmaker: something being a network doesn't necessarily mean that one type of train not going means delays on all the others
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05:42<@Celestar>Rubidium: in Germany, it doest.
05:42<@Celestar>I've got another ICE run on Sunday. let's hope it works out
05:42<planetmaker>I know, Rubidium. But here...
05:42<TrueBrain>doest ... that word can go two ways :)
05:42<@Celestar>Stuttgart-Airport Frankfurt-Aachen
05:43<@Celestar>and on Tuesday Aachen-Köln-München-Pasing
05:43<@Celestar>first time I use an airport to change long-distance trains \o/
05:43<TrueBrain>oh, and hi all :)
05:43<planetmaker>Moin TrueBrain :)
05:43<keyweed_>i use the airport to change from a bus to a train everyday.
05:44<TrueBrain>would be fun if you use it to change from plane to train every day ;)
05:44<TrueBrain>expensive :)
05:44<@Celestar>TrueBrain: I know people doing so.
05:44-!-petern [~petern@] has joined #openttd
05:44<@Celestar>I friend of mine lives in Munich and works in Frankfurt
05:44<keyweed_>they really got the multiple drive through bus stop thing under control at schiphol
05:44<TrueBrain>Celestar: well, then again: expensive :)
05:45<@Celestar>TrueBrain: nope. He works for Lufthansa.
05:45<TrueBrain>lol :)
05:45<@Celestar>the flights MUC-FRA are sometimes 50% or more LH employees.
05:45<@Celestar>I once had a flight on that route with 35 pilots, 52 flight attendents, 40 other staff and 3 "normal" passengers
05:46<Char>how did you find out?
05:46<@Celestar>cuz I asked :P
05:46<@Celestar>and we counted :P
05:46<@Celestar>and I delayed the flight 20 minutes cuz my flight from Osaka came late ^^
05:47<TrueBrain>bah, it is one of those days ... I am completely bored ..
05:48<Char>nothing to do?
05:48<Char>no work?
05:48<TrueBrain>not today
05:48<Char>do something useful
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05:48<@Rubidium>noai ;)
05:48<Char>tidy up your room
05:49<@Celestar>TrueBrain: help me write this damn paper
05:49<TrueBrain>Celestar: sure :p
05:49<Char>write a new computer game
05:49<@Celestar>TrueBrain: cancel write paper. set coding NoAI
05:49<TrueBrain>NoAI (or more: NAIL), is a pain currently
05:49<TrueBrain>finalizing and fixing darn bugs
05:49<TrueBrain>well, I don't have to tell you with your cargodest ;)
05:49<Char>celestar is doing cargodest?
05:50<planetmaker>TrueBrain: you are finalizing bugs? :D
05:50<TrueBrain>well, not at the moment :p
05:50<TrueBrain>planetmaker: yes
05:50<Char>you coded it?
05:50<Char>thats good to know
05:50<@Celestar>er why?
05:50<@Celestar>so you can send me letterbombs if it doesn't work? :D
05:51<TrueBrain>doesn't sound too friendly ;)
05:51<Char>just in case i ever use it and things dont work properly
05:51<TrueBrain>oh, and never to say: good job Celestar?!
05:51<TrueBrain>how rude .. :p
05:51<@Celestar>forgot where to push to :S
05:51<@Celestar>and it's not in my history
05:51<planetmaker>good job so far, ... all of you :)
05:51<TrueBrain>some kind of ssh address :p
05:52<Char>no, of course i would never say anyone has done a good job
05:52<Char>no seriously
05:52<Char>just interested
05:52<Char>in this stuff
05:52<Char>actually wanted to try cargodest at some point
05:52<TrueBrain>ssh:// <- Celestar: the push I use :p
05:52*Rubidium wonders when Char's next show is ;)
05:52<@Celestar>TrueBrain: thanks
05:52<TrueBrain>(mind the // ;))
05:52<@Celestar>Rubidium: what show?
05:52<@Celestar>ok I've merge again :D
05:52<TrueBrain>Char: The Medium
05:52<Char>Rubidium: next show????
05:53<TrueBrain>he refers to I guess
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05:53<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: wow, you understood me :)
05:53<TrueBrain>Rubidium: yeah .. I start to understand how your mind works ;)
05:54<TrueBrain>wow, my new CPU is fast ... Gentoo up and running in 2 hours of compiling .. doesn't happen that much :p
05:54<TrueBrain>now it needs to bite itself into KDE .. that will take some time :)
05:54<@Celestar>I HATE Munich-Stuttgart :(
05:54<Char>whys that?
05:54<petern>hmm, how can i update blkids?
05:54<@Celestar>Stuttgart-Aachen: 2h 49mins. Aachen-Munich (via Stuttgart) 5h 20 mins
05:55<@Celestar>mind you: Stuttgart-Aachen is 450km and Stuttgart-Munich is 200km.
05:55<@Rubidium>Celestar: Munchen-Munster is way more interesting ;)
05:55<@Celestar>Rubidium: 6:34h
05:56<@Celestar>Rubidium: 4:30h from Munich to Bonn, and 2 hours from Boon to Münster :P
05:56<@Rubidium>Celestar: you could take a plane ;)
05:56<@Celestar>Rubidium: yes.
05:57<@Rubidium>and then the slow train to Enschede
05:57<@Celestar>flight is 75 minutes
05:57<@Rubidium>maybe we could then have a cargodest release party or so ;)
05:58<@Celestar>found a flight for 138 EUR
05:58<@Celestar>round trip
05:59<@Rubidium>sounds cheaper than the train
05:59<@Rubidium>assuming you don't have a reduction card of some kind
06:00<@Celestar>I have
06:00<@Celestar>IDIOTS: "Unknown foreign fare. Please book ticket at the service desk"
06:01<@Celestar>I CAN book to Amsterdam
06:01<@Celestar>not Enschede
06:01<@Rubidium>Celestar: that's like... uhm... stupid ;)
06:02<@Celestar>let's try amsterday
06:02<@Rubidium>the German train runs up to Enschede station, complete with German signalling and safety systems and the track is completely seperate from the Dutch tracks
06:03<@Celestar>228 EUR round trip to amsterdam.
06:03<@Celestar>including my reduction card
06:04<@Celestar>Dec 12 to Dec 14
06:04<petern>hmm, people seem to say that swap should not be on raid-1...
06:05<@Rubidium>Enschede-Amsterdam is 36,70 without reduction round trip
06:05<Gekz>petern: it sounds quite pointless to me
06:05<@Celestar>how long?
06:05<petern>Gekz: for HA?
06:05<petern>high availability
06:06<@Celestar>Train: Munich-Amsterdam: 240 EUR round trip, takes 7:30h each way
06:06<petern>so when one drive dies, it's okay that it won't be able to swap stuff back in ?
06:06<@Celestar>Plane: Munich-Amsterdam: 89 EUR round trip, takes 1:30h each way
06:06<@Celestar>which would I chose?
06:06<Gekz>petern: couldnt you just put swap on two drives
06:06<Gekz>outside RAID
06:06<Gekz>and activate both
06:06<petern>i have got two drives
06:07<Gekz>on the two drives*
06:07<petern>how would that help in the event of a drive failure?
06:07<@Celestar>petern: disable swap?
06:07<Gekz>swap would still exist.
06:07<Gekz>swap is pointless
06:07<Gekz>I dont use it
06:08<@Rubidium>Celestar: looks like DB sends you via another route because it's marginally faster and that includes a few km of Dutch trains
06:08<@Rubidium>Celestar: how much is Munich-Hengelo?
06:08-!-mode/#openttd [+o petern] by ChanServ
06:08<@Celestar>Rubidium: Munich-Münster was about 200 EUR round trip ...
06:09<@petern>Gekz, ah, so you don't use it, so you don't know what you're talking about :D
06:09<Gekz>oh burn
06:09<Gekz>that's not true
06:09<Gekz>I use it, just not on this system.
06:09<Gekz>ln: contractions are old timer grammar.
06:09<@Celestar>Rubidium: 192 EUR to Hengelo
06:10<Gekz>especially on the interwebs
06:10<@Celestar>Rubidium: still a far cry compared to the 89 EUR for the flight
06:11<ln>Gekz: ok, then simply write "do not" instead of using contraction.
06:11<@Rubidium>+4 EUR for the local train
06:11<@Rubidium>and approximately 15 minutes extra
06:12<Gekz>ln: I wont agree.
06:12<Gekz>I can break my language how I see fit.
06:12<Gekz>it is my native tongue.
06:12<Gekz>I wont let foreigners do the same until they fully grasp it
06:12-!-mode/#openttd [+q gekz!*@*] by petern
06:12<@petern>but we don't have to listen to it :D
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06:13<Gekz_>how uncouth.
06:13<ln>Gekz_: i think i graps english fully enough.
06:13<Gekz_>graps you say.
06:14<@petern>quench evading!
06:14-!-mode/#openttd [-q gekz!*@*] by petern
06:14<Gekz_>evading what
06:14-!-Gekz_ is now known as Gekz
06:14<Gekz>its a nuisance and nothing more
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06:16<TrueBrain>hi Wolf01
06:17<TrueBrain>I can live with SPAM, I have SPAM filter ... but what annoys me the most, if when spammers start to use my address as From ... those idiotic bounce mails :(
06:18<@Celestar>block all e-mails that have you addy as from?
06:19<TrueBrain>stupid Gentoo .. made OpenTTD ebuild EAPI=2, which is NOT yet stable for all platforms ... let them test those things on other packages :p
06:19<@Rubidium>for all or for any?
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06:20<TrueBrain>Rubidium: dunno .. 'rc22' .. guess any ;)
06:20<TrueBrain>petern: some new standard for their scripts
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06:32<TrueBrain>kde-meta:4.1 .... 467 packages :p
06:32<Char>i need a train set for the ECS vectors
06:32<Char>actually i would like to use the standard train set
06:32<Char>but that one does not support the ECS cargoes....
06:35<@Rubidium>there's a newgrf somewhat that adds ecs support to the original vehicle (IIRC)
06:36<Ammler>oldvehicels-newcargos.grf from pikka
06:36<Ammler>Char: check ECS wiki.
06:37<TrueBrain>I love this country ..
06:37<TrueBrain>we are getting RFID passes to get into public service stuff (trains, busses, ...)
06:37<Char>i couldnt find it in ecs wiki
06:38<TrueBrain>now it is long known that the cards are broken
06:38<TrueBrain>as in: easy to hack
06:38<TrueBrain>last week an article was published where a person could copy his card with just 150 euro of hardware
06:38<TrueBrain>today they made it final that in Rotterdam it is the required thing to have in 2009
06:38*Rubidium wonders why hacking those cards is *such* a big issue...
06:39<TrueBrain>I really wonder how many people will never buy a real ticket ...
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06:39<keyweed_>it isn't. companies deploying a seriously flawed system IS a big issue
06:39<Char>ah found it
06:39<TrueBrain>it just smells like Microsoft. The OS contains known security issues .. well .. release it anyway .. call it Windows XP
06:40<TrueBrain>or: this OS contains serious stability problems .. well .. release it anyway .. call it Windows ME
06:40<@Rubidium>keyweed_: the Japanese are using a similar system which is broken too, but nobody complains there
06:40<TrueBrain>I mean, come on ... are the people leading this country really that stupid?
06:40<TrueBrain>Rubidium: the Japanese system is not as broken as the Dutch system :)
06:40<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: are you sure?
06:40<TrueBrain>we now use an encryption which was first marketed in .. 1985 I believe
06:41<TrueBrain>how outdated can you be?
06:41<keyweed_>Rubidium: the dutch system is absurdly broken, from DOS attacks, identity theft, free travel. all you need is a 30 dollar card writern and the skills of a 14 year olds script kiddie
06:41<TrueBrain>keyweed_: well, not really that black and white .. as it took a IT student a bit mroe money and time to do it correctly ;)
06:42<keyweed_>TrueBrain: true, saves the script kiddies a lot of work though. as soon as keys start getting published on the internet things will start getting interesting
06:42<TrueBrain>keyweed_: already done
06:42<@Rubidium>keyweed_: broken yes, but the Japanese version is equally flawed if not more flawed
06:42<TrueBrain>the paper published, includes detailed information on how to make a copy
06:43<TheMask97>TrueBrain: isn't there a way for them to know the card is hacked? I wonder how many people are actually going to hack the card if there is a risk they will be caught...
06:43<TrueBrain>and keys are already there to be found ;)
06:43<keyweed_>but hell. eventually they'll see their mistake and fix it by spending more tax dollars then an earlier fix would have cost.
06:43<TrueBrain>keyweed_: yeah ... that is what I am afraid of :(
06:43<@Rubidium>as in the Japanese version I can just walk through the gate without a card
06:43<keyweed_>TheMask97: there is nu realy difference between a hacked card and the original
06:43<TrueBrain>TheMask97: you can flash it back on your original card, so it is pretty hard to detect ;)
06:43<keyweed_>*not really a
06:43<TrueBrain>Rubidium: that is a flaw on a completely different level
06:44<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: really?
06:44<TrueBrain>Rubidium: like we here now talk about a lock of a window that is easy to pick .. and you tell us that the front door is open
06:44<TrueBrain>sure, it is also a problem, but not related on that level :)
06:44<TheMask97>TrueBrain: lol :)
06:44<@Rubidium>and identity theft is just stupid design
06:45<keyweed_>stupid design is the norm these days
06:45<TheMask97>TrueBrain: well I guess I've have to buy the hardware for 150 euro then ;) although I hardly ever travel by public transport
06:45<TrueBrain>but okay, I now hope they roll out the OVChip very fast over the completely country ... then I can travel for free for life
06:45<TrueBrain>TheMask97: soon you can buy those chips online for a few bucks :p
06:46<keyweed_> 39.95 mifare programmable watch
06:46<@Rubidium>oh... not to mention that you can run a ovchipcard like application on your (Japanese) mobile phone
06:46<TrueBrain>"He! I have a cool idea! Lets make a chip where people can travel with throughout the country" -- "Yes, good idea! But .. to save a few bucks, lets use that old standard we are using for ages already, it is so stable ... 16bit key, that is enough, not?"
06:46<@Rubidium>and go through the gates with that
06:46<@Rubidium>or pay at shops with the same system
06:47<Char>i got a question
06:47<Char>in the DB XL train set
06:47<Char>there are wagons which are different in length
06:47<Char>they are not half a tile long but a little shorter or longer
06:48<TheMask97>lol :)
06:48<Char>how do i know how long my train is with such wagons?
06:48<Char>i mean
06:48<Char>how do in know if it fits into a station?
06:48<Char>which is for example 6 tiles long
06:48<@Rubidium>you see that number thingy in the depot?
06:48<keyweed_>look at your train listing and compare it to one of your standard length trains?
06:48<Char>i do see that number thingy, yes
06:48<@Rubidium>divide that by 2 rounding upwards and you know how many tiles it is
06:49<Char>cause it just counts the wagons
06:49<Char>but if the wagons are different in length
06:49-!-fjb_ is now known as fjb
06:49<Char>i got a 9-wagon train which is definitely shorter than another 10-wagon train
06:54<@Rubidium>Char: ?
06:55<TrueBrain>Rubidium: talking about "hidden" features :p
06:55<@Celestar>stupid phone polls :S
06:56<@Rubidium>Celestar: <- the answer to phone polls
06:56<Gekz>Rubidium: what platform is that?
06:56<Char>but thanks Rubidium
06:59<TrueBrain>it streams really poor Rubidium .... :(
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07:00<@Celestar>Rubidium: hilarious
07:01<@Celestar>this one apparently wanted to sell diet food or something. Her: "Are you male or female". Me: "What do I sound like?". Her: "Male". Me: "Good. so let's suppose I'm male". "How tall are you?" "1755 millimeters" . "er what?" .. "1.755 meters" "ok .. then what's your weight?" ..
07:01<@Celestar>"You mean my weight or my mass" "Mass, then" "Well, that depends" "on what?" "On my velocity" "I don't understand" "Clearly" "<beep beep beep>"
07:02<TrueBrain>nasty :p
07:02<@Celestar>who me?
07:02*Celestar whistles
07:02<TrueBrain>I can't get that movie of Rubidium read past 1:15 ..
07:03<@Celestar>because it's great
07:03<@Celestar>I've gotta try that once
07:03<TrueBrain>would be nice to try that, yes ;)
07:04<TrueBrain>finally it loaded completely
07:09<@Celestar>geographically speaking...
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07:34-!-mode/#openttd [+o petern] by ChanServ
07:34<TrueBrain>petern: how was the raid?
07:35<@petern>/dev/md/3 427G 5687M 400G 1.3 [ ] /home
07:37<@petern>of course, now i have a spare 80GB IDE drive
07:39<@Rubidium>use it for swap ;)
07:39<TrueBrain>I don't even have a swap ... :p
07:39<@Rubidium>then you can run lighttpd unattended on it for a few weeks ;)
07:39<TrueBrain>hahahaha :)
07:39<@Rubidium>or use it for apache's rewrite logs
07:40<@Celestar>apache isn't that hungry, at least for me
07:40<TrueBrain>Apache is VERY hungry
07:40<TrueBrain>in general
07:40*petern is running lighttpd... :o
07:40<TrueBrain>and lighttpd is for us, because of the amount of requests per second, and his cache handler :p
07:41<@Rubidium>Celestar: Apache's rewrite logs can fairly easily cause a denial-of-service
07:42<SpComb>so disable rewrite logs
07:42<SpComb>or more percisely, don't forget to turn them off
07:42*SpComb wonders if he has them turned on
07:42<@Celestar>don't rewrite :P
07:42<@Rubidium>rewrite logs grow about 20 times faster than the access logs
07:45<TrueBrain>Rubidium: but I guess you can disable all logs for WT2 anyway :p
07:45<@Celestar>has there been any contact with Mihamix btw?
07:45<SpComb>I've never used lighty's caching
07:45<TrueBrain>Celestar: plenty; why you ask?
07:45<SpComb>but the HTTP proxy loads everything into memory, which is silly
07:45<@Celestar>TrueBrain: just wondering
07:45<@Celestar>@seen Mihamix
07:45<@DorpsGek>Celestar: Mihamix was last seen in #openttd 41 weeks, 2 days, 15 hours, 24 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <MiHaMiX> s/t$/d/
07:45<TrueBrain>SpComb: you use it, if you want it or not
07:45<@Celestar>cuz of that (=
07:46<TrueBrain>Celestar: hehe :) We arranged everything that was needed :)
07:46<SpComb>TrueBrain: iirc, my lighty doesn't do any caching
07:46<SpComb>of content, at least
07:46<TrueBrain>SpComb: it does; it caches the content before sending it to the client
07:46<TrueBrain>then it frees it again
07:46<TrueBrain>but if you have 100 people requesting 100 files, you have those files in your cache
07:46<TrueBrain>or memory
07:46<SpComb>what content? Some cgi?
07:46<TrueBrain>what ever youw ant to call it ;)
07:47<TrueBrain>any file
07:47<TrueBrain>problem is that it never frees that memory (as it can't)
07:47<TrueBrain>so when you get 1000 people in 1 sec, it uses, say, 100 MiB of RAM
07:47<TrueBrain>now when it stays below 1000 people, you are fine
07:47<SpComb>it would be very stupid of lighty to load the entire contents of every file into it's own memory
07:47<TrueBrain>but if you get 2000 people later, it grows
07:47<SpComb>as the kernel does that already
07:48<TrueBrain>it tries to mmap most things, as far as I understand
07:48<TrueBrain>but proxy requests it obvious can't :)
07:49<SpComb>ah, you're talking about lighty proxing requests to another server, not serving it up from the filesystem?
07:49<TrueBrain>I believe only static file serving is unaffected, yes
07:49<TrueBrain>(and that even depends on your mode ;))
07:50<SpComb>right, I thought you were talking about local static files
07:51<TrueBrain>there are 3 modes I believe for static files
07:51<TrueBrain>mmap, some kernel passthrough, and a buffer method
07:51<TrueBrain>the first two should be fine .. the last not ;)
07:51<SpComb> <-- that's the default backend
07:52<SpComb>but those all handle only MEM_CHUNK and FILE_CHUNKs, and I guess HTTP request proxying is handled by MEM_CHUNKs
07:52<SpComb>-> don't use lighttpd as a http proxy, it sucks at it
07:53<TrueBrain>it works just fine; just it consumes a terrible amount of memory if you are out of luck
07:53<SpComb>if you download a 700MB file through a lighttpd-proxy, it consumes 700MB of memory
07:54<TrueBrain>(and the amount of hits on the httpd is a bit .. insane, for OpenTTD ;))
07:54<TrueBrain>not in 1.5
07:54<TrueBrain>(I dunno about 1.4)
07:58<TrueBrain>Redmine is a nice bugtracker :)
08:01<TrueBrain> <- finally found the description of the problem :)
08:04<TrueBrain>but SpComb, maybe you are right, and we should place yet an other httpd in front of apache and lighttpd (and with that, in front of gitweb, hgweb, tracd, and some others)
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08:04<TrueBrain>then again ... hgweb and tracd leak in the same way
08:05<TrueBrain>www-data 24010 0.1 14.6 368752 117016 ? S Oct19 25:36 /usr/bin/python /usr/bin/tracd
08:05<TrueBrain>www-data 27295 0.1 15.8 264232 126984 ? Ss Sep27 56:46 /usr/bin/python /usr/bin/hg serve
08:05<TrueBrain>tracd is running for 11 days, and using 117MiB of RAM ...
08:05<TrueBrain>burst-malloc-no-free approach :p
08:06<TrueBrain>who needs a garbage collector anyway ..
08:06<@petern>SMART Usage Attribute: 194 Temperature_Celsius changed
08:06<@petern>from 122 to 126
08:07<@petern>that is clearly a lie
08:07<TrueBrain>petern: or it is REALLY hot in there
08:07<TrueBrain>petern: you can bake an egg on that thing!
08:07<TrueBrain>145 of 423 packages emerged ... sigh ...
08:07<@petern>hddtemp says ~25 deg C
08:08<SmatZ>TrueBrain: enjoy your emerge -e world ;-)
08:08<TrueBrain>what does -e do ..
08:08<TrueBrain>but no, emerging @kdebase and friends (4.1)
08:09<TrueBrain>emptytree ... lol
08:09<SmatZ>reemerges everything in your system
08:10<TrueBrain>I wonder when ever that is useful :p
08:10<SpComb>if you're doing domain-based-hosting across multiple daemons, then a dedicated proxy makes sense
08:10<SmatZ>good when you upgrade gcc or glibc or so
08:10<SmatZ>or change CFLAGS
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08:10<SpComb>or just run everything with lighttpd and FastCGI
08:10<TrueBrain>SpComb: most things are
08:10<TrueBrain>a few things are proxied away, like WT2 (on different VPS), and some stuff that only works under apache
08:11<TrueBrain>then it turned out hg and fastcgi leak even more
08:11<TrueBrain>so that was proxied too
08:11<TrueBrain>then trac had the same issue (python fastcgi module problem)
08:11<TrueBrain>so proxied too
08:11<TrueBrain>(most things are = most things were)
08:11<TrueBrain>gitweb is the only one doing its job right
08:12<TrueBrain>django had the same work .. but then again: also python
08:12<TrueBrain>so now we have more proxies then fastcgi ;)
08:12<SpComb>it would be interesting to know what's causing it
08:12<TrueBrain>Python garbage collector fucking up
08:12<TrueBrain>no, I am sure
08:12-!-lobster_MB [~michielbr@] has quit [Quit: COCKBUSTER SLEEP MODE]
08:12<SpComb>fucking up in what way?
08:13<TrueBrain>not freeing up the memory
08:13<TrueBrain>slowly eating more and more memory
08:13<SpComb>cyclical references?
08:13<TrueBrain>(EVERY page load increased the memory with 12 kib :p)
08:13<TrueBrain>the thread instance is never considered free'd
08:13<SpComb>I'm just sure it's possible to write python code that doesn't exhibit those problems
08:13<TrueBrain>so a missing DelRef() I guess :p
08:14<SpComb>so it would be interesting to know exactly what is going wrong
08:14<TrueBrain>I couldn't find a fastcgi module that didn't showed the same problem
08:14<TrueBrain>well, wsgi
08:14<TrueBrain>but okay ;)
08:14*SpComb leaves
08:14<TrueBrain>have a good day :)
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08:15<TrueBrain>and if you ever have the time, find out what goes wrong exactly, and fix it :p I couldn't trace it (to deep inside Python)
08:17<SmatZ>Exception in thread "OutputReader" java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: GC overhead limit exceeded
08:17<SmatZ>I wonder what is advantage of Java then
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08:20<TrueBrain>I wonder that in general
08:32<@Celestar>life. sucks.
08:32<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14547 /trunk/src/ (oldpool.h oldpool_func.h order_cmd.cpp): -Fix: order pool seemed to look full when it was not as it only checked whether it was possible to allocate a new block of pool items instead of checking for free pool items.
08:34<mikl>Let us eat Cake(PHP) and drink Java, before the Python eats us…
08:35<NukeBuster>is there any way to supress error messages from a docommand?
08:35<@Rubidium>why would you want to do that?
08:35<NukeBuster>as soon as it hits an error it gives a general error and stops resuming the function
08:36<NukeBuster>Im busy with the diagonal clearing patch... but discoverd for the rectangular clearing that the same stuff was also being handled by docommand
08:37<NukeBuster>but when i use docommand in a loop.... it doesn't return to my loop when it hits an error...
08:38<NukeBuster>I'll upload a screenshot
08:39<NukeBuster>where does it put that in linux?
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08:40<SmatZ>ahh screenshot...
08:40<SmatZ>I don't know
08:42<eMJay>Gekz and NukeBuster, that's where mine go
08:42<SmatZ>mine do to ~/.openttd
08:42<eMJay>NukeBuster: unless you're pressing the printscrn button , in which case it should go to the clipboard...
08:43<eMJay>(although, gnome prompts me where I want to save screen shots....)
08:43<NukeBuster>no I used ctrl-s
08:43<NukeBuster>got it
08:46<SmatZ>AddCost sets CmdFailed iirc
08:46<SmatZ>so maybe it is the problem
08:47<NukeBuster>can I undo that somehow?
08:47<NukeBuster>because it replaced this code which should not be nessecery
08:48<NukeBuster>because docommand already checks if there is enough money
08:49<@Rubidium>NukeBuster: the original code clears as much as it can, the "new" code clears all or nothing
08:50<NukeBuster>yeah thats true
08:50<NukeBuster>but thats why i want to supress that error msg
08:51<NukeBuster>it's almost the same code in cmd_levelland
08:52<@petern>*suppress, *message
08:52<dih>ln: that behaviour got people banned yesterday
08:52<NukeBuster>Thanks :)
08:52<@petern>that was yesterday, this is today
08:52<ln>dih: I'm safe.
08:53<SmatZ>NukeBuster: use cost.AddCost(DoCommand(blabla).GetCost) or so
08:53<SmatZ>or yeah, use if (CmdFailed(ret)) continue
08:53<SmatZ>but this way you set CmdFailed
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08:54<NukeBuster>if that works it would still save 10 lines
08:54<NukeBuster>of duplication
08:54*dih steps aside
08:55<SmatZ>Slowpoke is slow
08:55<SmatZ>[13:53:11] <SmatZ> NukeBuster: use cost.AddCost(DoCommand(blabla).GetCost) or so <== probably bad solution
08:56*dih shuffles the chars and finds pokeslow
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08:56<NukeBuster>so this should give the error through also? cost.AddCost(ret);
08:56<NukeBuster>it should be cost.AddCost(ret.GetCost); ?
08:56<SmatZ>if ret failed then, this will make cost failed too
08:57<SmatZ>if ret didn't fail, then it's ok
08:57<SmatZ>[13:53:45] <SmatZ> or yeah, use if (CmdFailed(ret)) continue <== this way you won't add failed ret
08:57<SmatZ>sorry gtg
08:57<Slowpoke>what? :o I'm not slow!
08:58<NukeBuster>i thought that skipped to the next loop?
08:58<dih>13:59 < Slowpoke> what? :o I'm not slow! <- even that comment was late...
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09:01<NukeBuster>Thanks guys, that seems to have solved it :)
09:02<NukeBuster>That will save a few lines of duplication
09:02<Slowpoke>no it was not.
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09:10<@Belugas>gosh .... you all do talk a lot ... 9 hours of stuff i do not have the time to look over...
09:10<TrueBrain>233 our of 424 ..
09:10<TrueBrain>hi Belugas :)
09:10<@Belugas>dih, you're strange guy, hugging me all of a sudden ;)
09:10<NukeBuster>hi Belugas :)
09:10<@Belugas>hello TrueBrain
09:10<@Belugas>and you too NukeBuster
09:13<dih>Belugas: a dev a day ;-)
09:13<dih>(at least a...)
09:23<NukeBuster>is it possible to force thiss check to execute when calling a DoCommand?
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09:25*Celestar goes barricading his office door
09:28<@Celestar>now why does this 2.5" USB drive have two connectors?
09:30<@Celestar>NukeBuster: what am I seeing?
09:31<NukeBuster>is it possible to force this when calling a DoCommand?
09:31<@Belugas>it looks like code from OpenTTD to me, but out of context, it could be anything :)
09:31<NukeBuster>posted the question 5 min earlier
09:32<NukeBuster>it should check the available money, shouldn't it?
09:34<Char>i feel so unmotivated... :/
09:34<@Celestar>welcome to the club
09:34<@Belugas>NukeBuster, i'm sorry, but is it a diff or is it the actual code?
09:35<NukeBuster>actual code
09:35<NukeBuster>it's from the DoCommand function
09:36<NukeBuster>I was trying to fight some duplicated code... because it looks like DoCommand checks available money itself
09:36<@Belugas>Char, have you step over your stupidity mode of yesterday actually had a go at reading the forums on ECS?
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09:37<Char>Belugas: i found out everything i need, yes
09:37<@Belugas>NukeBuster, am i under the impression that you think that all commands are money related?
09:37<@Belugas>good, Char :) proud of you
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09:39<NukeBuster>no they probably aren't
09:39<NukeBuster>but the line !CheckCompanyHasMoney(res)) gives me the idea that the function does have the check for it...
09:40<Char>Belugas: i am proud of me as well :P
09:40<@Rubidium>NukeBuster: any idea how complex the clear function actually is w.r.t. to payment?
09:40<Char>no, actually not, but whatever
09:40<@Belugas>and what do you see just 2-3 lines above, NukeBuster?
09:40<NukeBuster>checks if not bankruptand if not cost query?
09:41<NukeBuster>but the _docommand_recursive stuff strikes me...
09:43<@Belugas>So it seems yu have not yet grasp all the internals of the command handling :)
09:43<NukeBuster>Rubidium: Well the 3 lines i just removed seemed to do nothing with cost estimation, the only problem now is that when there isn't enough money the command doesn't fail... And i thought i had seen that in the DoCommand function.
09:44<NukeBuster>you have spam on your btw.
09:45<@Rubidium>no kidding ;)
09:45<NukeBuster>but the DoCommand is or isn't able to check if there is enough money available?
09:48<@Rubidium>clearing land is a tricky function for which cost estimation is basically impossible
09:48<Char>has any of you guys ever played locomotion?
09:49<NukeBuster>strange thing though if _docommand_recursive ==0 -> error; then it gets 1 added; then it checks for _docommand_recursive==1
09:49<NukeBuster>which cannot happen
09:49<NukeBuster>because if you had set it to 1 it would be 2 at the check
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09:50<@Belugas>Char, i did, and i did not liked it much enough to switch over
09:50<@Rubidium>NukeBuster: I can't follow your thoughts
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09:50<@Belugas>Rubidium, i've disconnected a while ago, already :)
09:52<NukeBuster>I'm trying to reduce code duplication by the way.
09:52<@Rubidium>FYI: line 400 clears the error state
09:53<NukeBuster>so I'd just set _docommand_recursive to 0 then
09:53<Char>Belugas: i tried it as well, but for some reason it did not have the same feel
09:53<@Rubidium>NukeBuster: no, you should not touch that variable at all
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09:59<@Belugas>Char, one thing i noted: Locomotion was aimed at been more realistic then TTD. Could be. But it was also less fun. I think that's what started my "reflection" on realism
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10:01<ln>Locomotion had some nice improvements, but then it is too much like building rollercoasters.
10:01<@Celestar>yeah, and many things sucked ass
10:02<@Celestar>Belugas: Locomotion was more realistic? where?
10:02<@Celestar>I didn't find anything that was more realistic in Locomotion
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10:02<@Celestar>except maybe real curves. Which was about the only good thing.
10:03<@Belugas>well.. mostly the graphics indeed
10:03<@Celestar>which didn't really look all that great :P
10:03<@Celestar>there weren't even depots
10:04<@Celestar>the pathfinder was worse than anything ottd ever had, and the AI sucked even more than in TTO
10:07<ln>list of nice things in Locomotion, compared to (O)TTD: underground tracks and stations, underwater tunnels, the local/express setting for individual trains
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10:07<@Celestar>1) yes but interface sucked ass, 2) ok, 3) nice
10:08<@Celestar>and a 384*384 map slowed my Athlon 1800+ to a crawl back then.
10:08<ln>the UI for building underground stuff sucks badly if there are buildings above or near. also true for building tramways.
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10:08<@Celestar>whereas openttd runs a 1k x 1k nicely with cargodest and 300 trains on my Pentium M locked to 600MHz
10:09<@Belugas>underground stuff idea was indeed apprealing, ln, but badly presented
10:09<@Belugas>there has to be a better way
10:09<@Celestar>there was
10:09<@Celestar>I've done one in the map rewrite
10:09<@Celestar>it's still there.
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10:10<@Celestar>you could use it to "slice" the landscape
10:11<@Celestar>ln: I've always asked myself where there wasn't just a button to switch between underground and overground view.
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10:12<@Celestar>in openttd, we could just have an additional viewport for underground view ;)
10:12<@Celestar>which is coordinate-locked with the main viewport or so
10:12<@Celestar>so you can see where you're at (=
10:12<ln>yeah, a separate underground mode would have helped a lot.
10:13<ln>i was kind of hoping they would release an update to fix undergound UI, but i guess there isn't one.
10:14<ln>the first (and only?) update released fixes some severe issues such as german version showing "Insert CD" in english, or something like that.
10:15<@Celestar>but I loved the tracks
10:16<@Celestar>they looked like real tracks
10:16<@Celestar>multi-tile curves :D
10:16<ln>also stations on bridges is a nice feature.
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10:22<@Celestar>or below bridge, even though we could do that now
10:22<@Celestar>we just need to graphical restrictions for those bridges and/or stations
10:26<@Celestar>same for crossing bridges
10:26<@Celestar>which might really add to the game :D
10:26<@Celestar>hm .. 14000 context switches per second on the server.
10:26<@Celestar>not bad :P
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10:36<TrueBrain>289 / 423 ... sigh ..
10:37<Sacro>!calc 289 / 423
10:37<Sacro>@calc 289 / 423
10:37<@DorpsGek>Sacro: 0.683215130024
10:40<NukeBuster>DC_EXEC is not set when doing a cost estimation?
10:41<TrueBrain>that is the idea of DC_EXEC ...
10:41<TrueBrain>read the documentation .. for a chance it is pretty clear ;)
10:42<TrueBrain>hmm .. KDE packages gives a % complete per CC line .. how nice ;)
10:42<TrueBrain>[ 79%] Building CXX object ksystemlog/src/modes/postfix/CMakeFiles/ksystemlog_postfix.dir/postfixAnalyzer.o
10:42<TrueBrain>[ 80%] Building CXX object ksystemlog/src/modes/apache/CMakeFiles/ksystemlog_apache.dir/apacheAccessAnalyzer.o
10:42<TrueBrain> Ithink OpenTTD needs it too :p
10:43<NukeBuster>make a progress bar while you are at it ;)
10:43<+glx>how can they estimate that?
10:43<TrueBrain>glx: no idea
10:43<TrueBrain>I guess it only works for a clean build
10:43<NukeBuster>number of cpp files?
10:44<+glx>but openttd builds files in alphabetic order so it's easy to estimate
10:44<TrueBrain>what has the alphabet has to do with it? :)
10:44<NukeBuster>progress bar would be possible too then?
10:45<+glx>you know how much is needed approximatively by looking at the filename
10:45<TrueBrain>glx: ah :) A counter would be better ;)
10:45<TrueBrain>NukeBuster: it has no additional value really ..
10:46<NukeBuster>progress bar releaves stress :P
10:46<NukeBuster>makes people more patient
10:47<TrueBrain>in this case I agree with glx: the list is on alphabet, so just try to 'count' to Z, and you are fine too
10:47<NukeBuster>nice idea
10:48<+glx>and complinig openttd is not that slow
10:48<@Belugas>i wonder if anyone has tested my version of fund_town stuff...
10:48<TrueBrain>'not that slow' .. lol :p
10:49<+glx>compared to wxwidgets or even gcc
10:49<thingwath>comparing to any larger C++ KDE application... it is extremely fast :o)
10:49<TrueBrain>glx: why would OpenTTD compare to GCC? :p
10:50<TrueBrain>I mean ... my drinking glass is smaller than an office building
10:50<TrueBrain>nevertheless, my drinking glass is HUGE
10:50<TrueBrain>(0.5L in this case)
10:50<NukeBuster>found a bug in 14539
10:50<+glx>upgrade :)
10:50<+glx>then retry
10:50<NukeBuster>cost estimation on level area returns a blank box
10:51<NukeBuster>thought it was my doing
10:51<NukeBuster>so tried a clean checkout
10:51<TrueBrain>305 / 423 ...
10:51<TrueBrain>1 per minute on avage ..
10:51<TrueBrain>leaves almost 2 hours on the clock ..
10:54<NukeBuster>[15:48:49] <glx> and complinig openttd is not that slow <- lol
10:54<NukeBuster>still busy
10:55<NukeBuster>bug is still there
10:55<NukeBuster>I'm going to try and fix it
10:56<TrueBrain>good luck :)
11:03<NukeBuster>return (cost.GetCost() == 0) ? CMD_ERROR : cost;
11:04<NukeBuster>seems to be the problem
11:04<NukeBuster>the code never lets a failed command through though
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11:05<TrueBrain>I really wonder how useful it would be to install OpenTTD on my iPhone :p
11:06<Sacro>i have it on my DS
11:06<NukeBuster>not sure if it is the best fix, but failed DoCommands get tackled earlier
11:07<NukeBuster>It never returns an error if you can't level a factory or something
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11:19<TrueBrain>long live Google ... we support OpenID .. but it is not compatible with 1.0 or 2.0 .. no, we have our own 'secure' version ... how useless ...
11:22<+glx>well it's google :)
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11:23<@Rubidium>Google... the new Microsoft
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11:28<TrueBrain>and strangly enough ... Microsoft added OpenID, without modification ;)
11:28<TrueBrain>makes you really wonder :)
11:29<TrueBrain>347 / 423
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11:29<+glx>is it compatible with MS Passport?
11:29<+glx>or windows live ID ?
11:30<TrueBrain>dunno :p
11:30<TrueBrain>I just read the summary, and lost interest :p
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11:40<yorick>the help window of openttd -h does not fit anymore
11:40<yorick>to my screen
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11:50<TrueBrain> get a bigger screen
11:50<TrueBrain>(the solution is always simple)
11:55<yorick>get a bigger laptop?
11:55<TrueBrain>392 / 423 ... almost there ..
11:56<@Celestar>1400x1050 is not badD:
11:56<@Celestar>and I'm going to town
11:56<TrueBrain>enjoy :)
11:56<@Celestar>dancing (=
11:57<yorick>it's at 1280x800
11:57<@Celestar>bye \o
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11:57<TrueBrain>see, your resolution is too low ..
11:57<TrueBrain>(800 in height .. omg .. haven't had that resolution in ages)
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11:58<yorick>I was previously at 1024x768
11:58<TrueBrain>a 16:10 screen at 1024x768 ... now that is silly
11:59<yorick>no, another screen
11:59<TrueBrain>oh, YOU were at 1024x756
11:59<TrueBrain>so you are a chatbot after all
11:59<yorick>not the screen
11:59<yorick>no, chatbots are not at the screen
11:59<yorick>they are hidden away into the console
12:00<TrueBrain>not if it would be a robot .. hmm .. interesting
12:00<yorick>or I could be on a device without a screen
12:01<TrueBrain>either way: rotate your laptop 90 degrees, and it will fit just fine
12:01<yorick>that is not a really confortable position
12:04<@Belugas>so? proposition? maybe fetch the text of the help on the console, so you'llbe able to scroll it?
12:04<yorick>how should I be able to fetch the help text on console on WINDOWS
12:05<yorick>(without using that gui2console thing)
12:05<TrueBrain>works even under windows
12:06<yorick>TrueBrain: yes, but it does not list the blitters, drivers or graphics packs
12:06<TrueBrain>but that you can read on your own screen
12:06<TrueBrain>as those are on the bottom
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12:07<yorick>it displays only the top part :p
12:07<TrueBrain>stupid computer
12:07<yorick>stupid computer programmer
12:07<TrueBrain>yeah, blame microsoft
12:08<yorick>stupid microsoft
12:08<+glx>hmm right the openttd -h window is too big
12:08<TrueBrain>glx: even bigger with NoAI :)
12:08<+glx>well I can see all blitters options
12:08<+glx>so for NoAi ...
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12:29<TrueBrain>414 / 423
12:29<yorick>what are you counting?
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12:39<+glx>[16:55:33] <TrueBrain> 392 / 423 ... almost there ..
12:39<+glx>[17:29:26] <TrueBrain> 414 / 423
12:39<+glx>very slow it seems
12:39<@Rubidium>at least it's faster than petern's numbers
12:48<TrueBrain>it is done :) :)
12:49<TrueBrain>glx: and I estimated 1 package per minute, so that sounds about right :)
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14:13<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14548 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/welsh.txt: -Add: partial welsh translation, to be finished later.
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14:27<CIA-5>OpenTTD: translators * r14549 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
14:27<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-30 18:25:24
14:27<CIA-5>OpenTTD: croatian - 9 fixed by tperic (9)
14:27<CIA-5>OpenTTD: ido - 13 fixed by Cecile (13)
14:27<CIA-5>OpenTTD: indonesian - 219 fixed by dnaftali (219)
14:27<CIA-5>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changed by lorenzodv (1)
14:27<CIA-5>OpenTTD: korean - 2 changed by dlunch (2)
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14:52<welshdragon>can has openttd in welsh?
14:53<ln>has a bucket?
14:53<welshdragon>ln, haha
14:53<welshdragon>have a cookie
14:54*yorick can has cookie
14:55<@Belugas>welshdragon, how hard can has you want it to?
14:55<welshdragon>Belugas, umm, liek now?
14:56<@Belugas>are you commited to spend lots of time translating all those.. hem.. lottsa strings?
14:57<welshdragon>hmm i can give it a bash
14:57*welshdragon has done some translating for ubuntu
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14:58<yorick>can has openttd in lolspeak?
14:58<Sacro>yorick: me and you should make a start
15:00<@Belugas>around 3500 lines of text...
15:02<@Belugas>welshdragon, if you really want to dwelve in the adventure, an account to web transaltor can be setup for ya, /me thinks
15:02<welshdragon>Belugas, how much has already been done?
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15:03<@Belugas>none zit
15:03<@Belugas>on welsh??
15:03<frosch123>Belugas: you life 50 minutes in the past
15:04<@Rubidium>frosch123: 2710/3305 would be more accurate
15:04<frosch123>well, I just used wc
15:04<frosch123>also counting the comments and stuff
15:05<@Belugas>not 50 minutes, far mote than that ^_^
15:05<@Belugas>i was looking at an old repo
15:05<@Belugas>like... very old...
15:05*Belugas is updating said repo
15:07<welshdragon>and yes, i'll accept the account, Sacro any thoughts of having Openttd in Yorkshire speak?
15:07<Sacro>welshdragon: aye?
15:07<@Rubidium>frosch123: strgen can tell how much missing strings there are
15:08<Sacro>cept yorkshire isn't consistent
15:08<welshdragon>use the best phrases
15:17<@Belugas>well.. indeed, there is welsh available on the unfinished section
15:22*welshdragon would like to check it
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>i need three volunteers
15:22<welshdragon>what for?
15:23<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: take bjarni, sacro and yorick
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>that's traditionally revealed after they volunteered :p
15:23<welshdragon>Eddi|zuHause, i volunteer
15:23<yorick>what for?
15:23<Sacro>frosch123: ME ME ME!
15:24<yorick>forsch123: I volunteer!
15:24<welshdragon>there, Eddi|zuHause, you have your 3 volunteers, me, yorick and Sacro
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>no, but really... i need diagonal stations, diagonal bridges and diagonal slopes
15:24<welshdragon>as in drawn?
15:24<yorick>you have diagonal slopes
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>not with rails in the slope direction
15:26*welshdragon opts out
15:26*yorick opts out
15:26<yorick>not good at drawing
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>not drawn, coded
15:27*Sacro opts out
15:27<yorick>not good at coding nfo
15:27<Sacro>need a dump :(
15:27<yorick>and no C(++) either
15:28<@Belugas>too modest
15:29<thingwath>very modest
15:29<yorick>quite modest
15:29<Sacro>slightly modest
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15:30<yorick>a bit modest
15:31<yorick>llittle modest
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: i have been thinking, could newobjects as some arbitrarily placed multi tile facilities be combined with newgrf_ports for more or less arbitrary movement patterns? for things like multi tile curves, or shallower multi-tile-slopes?
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15:31<@Belugas>not connected
15:31<@Belugas>not the holy graal
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15:32<@Belugas>just... look-good stuff
15:32<@Belugas>with a few props of their own
15:33<@Belugas>newobjects can be misleading as a name
15:33<@Belugas>it may be more related as new-landscape-objects
15:34<yorick>you mean it adds new vehicles?
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>so you are just aiming at eyecandy, and not planning for it to be extendible in any way?
15:34*Belugas is swayed by Local Authority
15:35<@Belugas>it has been extended a bit, at least in our heads. but it's not a revolutionnary new stuff-do-it-all
15:36<frosch123>that stuff will follow with NewRealism
15:36<frosch123>(part of ottd 1.0)
15:36*Belugas imagines yorick's country side full of half-buried vertical cars...
15:37<@Belugas>lol at frosch123 :D
15:37<yorick>the half-buried vertical cars will be washed away by sea and my country side will be clean again
15:40<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause, to answer you, it's based on unmovables. SO think about light houses, statues and such.
15:40<@Belugas>frist draft is inded quite "clean"
15:41<@Belugas>but on the second "wave", we'll see about extending it to cargo awareness, maybe
15:41<@Belugas>or stuff like that
15:41<@Belugas>yeah :)
15:42<@Rubidium>George's ESS ;)
15:42<@Belugas>antennas that will guide planes...
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, what i am aiming at is a) a user interface, and b) (map) storage space to store aggregated tile structures (which could come from newobjects) and mix that with a movement automaton like in airports
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>to get a generic newgrf way to define tiles that can be crossed by vehicles in certain ways, but are not stations
15:43*Belugas would like to take whatever Eddi|zuHause took. Looks like good stuff ;)
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>that could help to rather easily add stuff ranging from smooth highway curves over roundabouts to diagonal rail ramps or even doubletrack rail
15:45<@Belugas>that kind of object would be hard to represent, i think
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i know i am always thinking at least 3 steps ahead of what is actually feasible :p
15:46<@Belugas>it would have to be made aware of nearby tiles, in a connection way, plus some rules inside
15:46<@Belugas>that's called been high, Eddi|zuHause ;)
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>i hear that quite regularly :p
15:48<@Belugas>it's not impossible, everything is possible. but let say time is something that might block quite a few good projects like yours
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>i know that problem ;)
15:52<@Belugas>You do? Wait until you'll start working, for real... and have a wife and a kid!
15:53<@Belugas>then, you'll really know that proble :D
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16:02<welshdragon>Belugas, can i have a web translator accopunt please?
16:11<+glx>ask Rubidium
16:12<@Rubidium>rather send an email with a nickname, realname, password and the language to the email address specified on the website
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16:14<welshdragon>ok, ty
16:16<welshdragon>Rubidium, umm, emaul address?
16:18<@Rubidium>welshdragon: translator@
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16:54<welshdragon>Rubidium, sent
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16:57*Belugas caugh it and trashed it!
17:00<welshdragon>you trashed my email?
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17:05*welshdragon shall resend it
17:06<@Belugas>naaa.... it was a joke :S
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17:13<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:14<@Belugas>night boyz, i shall now return home
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18:09<baud>I am having trouble getting a setting (company_pw) to set correctly in ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg. Whenever I try to blank out the password it resets the password as what I initially set it at.
18:12<baud>so no one can set a company password -_-;
18:13<@Rubidium>you were likely running openttd while changing the config file and then closing openttd reset it
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18:23<baudchan>rebooting didn't help either
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18:56<welshdragon>if a string is {RED}{COMMA} does it need translating?
18:56<SmatZ>I think it needs translating so it is counted as translated in stats :)
18:56<SmatZ>but I may be very wrong
18:57<welshdragon>hmm, it could break the string, that's all
18:57<Sacro|Laptop>{RED}{COMMA} is left
18:58<welshdragon>thank you
18:59<+glx>you can just copy it
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19:00<Sacro|Laptop>cheat :p
19:01<welshdragon>oh god, i'm currently translating toyland
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19:16<welshdragon>there we go
19:16<welshdragon>committed my first 9 strings :p
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19:37<welshdragon>Sacro|Laptop, standard server needs a new game
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19:39<Sacro|Laptop>welshdragon: orly?
19:40<welshdragon>yes, it's like 2079 or something
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19:46<welshdragon>20th of September, 2061
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19:56<Char>i produced lots of vehicles
19:56<Char>but i cannot transport them
19:57<Char>since i do not have any wagons able to transport them :/
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20:16<Char>the flat bed wagon i need for transporting vehicles around
20:16<Char>is not introduced
20:16<Char>until some time later
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 31 00:00:10 2008