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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-03

---Logopened Mon Nov 03 00:00:48 2008
00:29<ccfreak2k>rubyruy, is it articulated realistically?
00:32<rubyruy>the truck?
00:32<rubyruy>doesnt seem to be
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01:43<George>Belugas: Unfortunately we need to take time zones into account. SPb is UTC+3
01:46<rubyruy>does ECS limit good acceptance in towns?
01:47<rubyruy>or are only industries demand capped?
01:48<George>Houses do not have acceptance limit. Amount of goods a house can accept is unlimited
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02:14<@Celestar>oh man
02:14<@Celestar> <= good job
02:16<@Celestar>Happened yesterday in Munich
02:16<@Celestar>what was the damn driver doing?
02:18<@Celestar>and Munich should finally be converted to the through station
02:36<@petern>maybe his brakes failed :p
02:37<@Celestar>it's an ICE, they NEVER fail .P
02:37-!-Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggstry
02:38<@Celestar>and why is AMD incapable of producing a competitive CPU for the desktop market?
02:38<rubyruy>are GRFs 'decompilable' ?
02:39<rubyruy>the ECS fix for newships forgot to include fish to the bulk freighter's cargo list
02:39<rubyruy>pretty much makes ECS + ships a no go
02:39<rubyruy>wondering if i can just fix it myself
02:40<@Celestar>The new Core i7 in its slowest incarnation is twice as fast as the fastest Phenom :P
02:42<@Celestar>only the cheapest mainboard for them costs around 300 bucks at the present time
02:50<@petern>oh, i7 is available now?
02:50<@petern>phenom struggled to keep up with core 2 anyway, heh
02:52<@petern>and triple core... was is that about?
02:52<@petern>a way to squeeze more out of poor yields, i guess
02:57<@petern>hmm, sounds like core i7 will stomp over core 2 as well
02:57<@petern>but then, it should
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03:34<dih>a Player just joined my server, i have no idea what he/she/it did, but the result was
03:34<dih>src/string.cpp:58: char* strecat(char*, const ch
03:34<dih>ar*, const char*): Assertion `dst <= last' failed.
03:34<dih>sorry for the line break
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03:35<dih>src/string.cpp:58: char* strecat(char*, const char*, const char*): Assertion `dst <= last' failed.
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03:36<FauxFaux>I expect that's entirely meaningless without a stack trace or a testcase, which I guess you can't provide. :)
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03:53<Aali>not entirely meaningless
03:53<Aali>but not entirely useful, either
03:53<Aali>do you still have the crash.dmp?
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03:56<dih>Ali: i dont get a crash.dmp
03:56<Aali>too bad
03:56<Aali>and please, it's Aali
03:57<Aali>i still have a pretty good idea of what happened though
03:57<Aali>try creating a new company on that server
03:57<dih>ops - sorry
03:57<dih>i am at work
03:57<dih>i will not try connecting to my server
03:57<dih>feel free to do it if you like
03:57<Aali>the auto nightly?
04:00<Aali>fine, i'll just look it up :P
04:03<Aali>as i suspected
04:03<Aali>under the right (wrong) circumstances, you can only have one company
04:03<Aali>or it will crash
04:03<dih>continue ;-)
04:04<dih>Aali: the game will be back at 10:20
04:04<dih>CET ;-)
04:05<dih>and what do you mean by 'circumstances', i am quite curious
04:05<Aali>it does a strecat in network_server.cpp, the destination string is correct but the safety check is all wrong
04:05<dih>due to what
04:05<Aali>so it basically ends up checking against company 0's string every time
04:05<Aali>its a bug
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04:06<Aali>the code is wrong
04:06<dih>^ binary cheer
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04:24<@Celestar>petern: dunno when the i7 will be available
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05:11<dih> <- HAHAHA
05:12<Yexo>automatic translation ftw :)
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05:22<@Celestar>dih: what the HELL is that?
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05:40<dih>i love the anser of that forum post
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05:45<Ammler>dih: is the license thing still not solved?
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06:00<@Celestar>oh man
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06:00<@Celestar>this Ypsilanti-mess is really getting a national embarrassment
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06:42<@Belugas>George: right. and i'm at UCT -5. RIght now, just out of the shower, preparing for leaving to work
06:46<George>I suppose 6 hours later would be the only time for us to see each other (today is the holiday here, but on the other days I'd de at work at this time and I have no time for IRC there). Do you have IRC at work?
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06:49<@petern>belugas is seeing me, not you!
06:49*petern gets all jealous
06:51*SpComb prepares for leaving to work as well
06:51<SpComb>except it's almost two in the afternoon here
06:51<@petern>it's 11:51am
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06:54<@petern>nokia's e90
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07:03<CIA-5>OpenTTD: smatz * r14560 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp unix.cpp): -Fix [FS#2396](r14555): lengthof() can't be simply replaced by lastof() in some cases (part by Aali)
07:04<@petern>skidd13's quality control, eh?
07:06<SmatZ>there should be more, yes :)
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08:01<Korenn>petern = peter1138 on forums?
08:02<welshdragon>Korenn, corrct
08:02<Korenn>ok, thanks
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09:03<@Belugas>rest assure, petern, you are the only one i want to see :D
09:04<@Belugas>and apart you and glx and TrueBrain, i've talked to no one eitehr :)
09:04<TrueBrain>(as in: happy ;))
09:05<dih>hello Belugas
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09:05<dih>hello TrueBrain
09:05<TrueBrain>hi dih
09:05<TrueBrain>:p :p
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09:27<@Belugas>by the way, George, regarding our nick problem (if you have not registered it already), you could kill 2 birds with one stone:
09:27<@Belugas>choose a nick that tells you're THAT George-> George_ECS
09:27<@Belugas>or something like that :)
09:28<@Belugas>so it's quite evident who you are really!
09:30<@petern>become a girl
09:31<Doorslammer>Mrs. George
09:31<@petern>oh, the sun is smelling again
09:32<@Belugas>i'm still blowing up your school ;)
09:33<@petern>i might need new speakers for the car :(
09:33<@petern>got a bit enthusiastic...
09:34<@Belugas>it's indeed easy to be :D
09:35<George>Personally I'm not happy with such a solution. If I'd choose a nick that is different from my name, I'd select "Meowth" instead, and a rare user would identify me that way :( although a good search could allow such identification
09:35<George>So I'd wait until registered owner of the Nick George will appear :)
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09:38<@Belugas>granted :)
09:38<@Belugas>but there is very little chance he is going to appear in this channel
09:39<mikegrb>George: good chance you can have the nick george, just ask in #oftc
09:40<George>mikegrb: ?
09:40<mikegrb>well he hasn't been around in 8 months
09:40<mikegrb>normally that can be dropped no problem
09:40<Doorslammer>I dont see what all of the fuss is about really
09:41<George>mikegrb: Whom should I ask to do this and how?
09:41<Doorslammer>All you would have to do is say "Hi, Im George of ECS fame". We will remember you, no matter the name used, we aren't goldfish you know
09:41<mikegrb>just join #oftc and ask if the nick George can be dropped there
09:44<George>mikegrb: [17:44] <Peng_> He was active for a year.
09:45<SmatZ>mmm we have an OFTC server admin here 8-)
09:45<mikegrb>yeah but peng is just a user ;)
09:45<George>What should I answer?
09:45<mikegrb>just wait ;)
09:45<mikegrb>we are discussing it in the network staff channel
09:46<George>mikegrb: ?
09:47<mikegrb>only issue was that the guy used the nick for a year
09:47<mikegrb>normaly if the nick was active for 3 months and then last used 6 months ago, it can be dropped
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09:54<George>mikegrb: Ok, thanks.
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10:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i know that my apperance is that impressive.
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>but you shall not fear, as i mean no harm
10:01<ccfreak2k>I'm pretty unimpressed. :|
10:03<MoW|Switchx>you can buy Sid Meier's Railroads!, Railroad Tycoon 3, Railroad Tycoon II Platinum on steam
10:04<Doorslammer>Must say I feel rather disappointed too
10:04<MoW|Switchx>but no ttd
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>TTD is not sid meier's
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10:07<MoW|Switchx>microprose is death
10:07<MoW|Switchx>the deluxe version is dos or win ?
10:08<MoW|Switchx>or can be both
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10:15<bufalo1973>one question (I hope it's not too obvious): is there a free replacement pack for the original TT files?
10:17<mikegrb>not yet
10:18<mikegrb>being worked on
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10:32<Ammler>@seen Zuu
10:32<@DorpsGek>Ammler: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 42 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <Zuu> TrueBrain: That looks interesting, thank you.
10:33<bufalo1973>I'll have to wait then (like everyone else) :)
10:33<Ammler>bufalo1973: well, it is useable
10:33<Ammler>if you use Trainsets
10:33<Ammler>and not Toyland
10:34<Ammler>it has no monorail and maglev, afaik
10:34<Ammler>but there are many free trainsets available
10:35<bufalo1973>are they on the site?
10:35<bufalo1973>thank you
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11:02<AgentLeMan>hello everys body :o)
11:03*SmatZ 's body says "Hello"
11:03*Doorslammer ... what he said
11:04<AgentLeMan>im looking for something. uhm... well, i bet you wont like it but... its a graphics-mod that is LESS graphics tfor openttd
11:06<AgentLeMan>( all those shy ones of you, who fear to be talking in the open, you can just query me also )
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11:09*Rubidium has no clue what AgentLeMan is after
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11:10<@Rubidium>or does he want to play with the 8bpp-debug blitter?
11:10<AgentLeMan>°cant read minds°
11:10<AgentLeMan>no, i just want to get rid of the railings of the tracks
11:10<AgentLeMan>but either i cant find such grf, or dont know how do to that myself
11:11<@Rubidium>like when under the "wrench" you disable "full detail"?
11:13<AgentLeMan>switching off full detail only disables the display of those railings?
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11:14<Aali>AgentLeMan: you want the no fences grf?
11:14<AgentLeMan>Aali, taht was my question about, yes.
11:15<Aali>shouldn't be that hard to find
11:15<Aali>did you try grfcrawler?
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11:17<AgentLeMan>thank you, Aali. you pointed me into the right direction, instead of just kinda-helping
11:17<AgentLeMan>( )
11:19<AgentLeMan>and it really does exactly, what i want :o))
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11:20<Eddi|zuHause>yay for people asking the wrong question and then bitching around why they don't get the right answer
11:22<AgentLeMan>°smirks° if it was so wrong, tell me, why then alia could find out so easily, what iwas asking?
11:24<@Belugas>same country as you?
11:24<@Belugas>who knows...
11:25<@Rubidium>AgentLeMan, it's the difference between: "I want less graphics, how do I do it?" and "I want to get rid of the fences near railroads?"
11:26<AgentLeMan>i agree to that, Rubidium.
11:26<@Rubidium>you asked the former and we had to ask quite a bit before you asked what you really wanted to ask (i.e. the latter)
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11:33<Aali>same country? the guy is german (or atleast his hostmask is) :P
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11:39<@Belugas>i was just guessing randomly...
11:39<@Belugas>i'm not in ther position to scrutinize every possibility :P
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12:23<AgentLeMan>thanks for help then :o) °waves°
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12:23<@Rubidium>looks like Belugas has been watching 16:9 content on a 4:3 screen without the "free" blackness
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12:25<@Celestar>how are ye?
12:25<ln>we're operating within normal parameters
12:25<@Celestar>good for you :P
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13:56<ln>hello, republicans
13:57<fjb>Quak frosch123
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14:26<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14561 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Feature(ette)[FS#2334]: Add result 0x0F to callbacks 0x29/0x35. (Yexo)
14:26<ln>wtf kind of a commit message is that?
14:27<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
14:27<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 17 hours, 22 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <Bjarni> goodnight (what's left of it anyway)
14:27<Sacro>we have autoreplace bugs
14:28<@Belugas>that's a perfectly legit message, ln. For those who know ;) and who know where to search for
14:28<SmatZ>Sacro: ask frosch123 then
14:28<@Belugas>and who care about it :)
14:28<Sacro>frosch123: you know about autoreplace?
14:29<frosch123>in nightlies yes, in 0.6 no
14:31<ln>Belugas: it's still a silly commit message, way too undescriptive.
14:31<Yexo>ln: just read FS#2334 and you'll know what it is about
14:32<Yexo>hint: it's not interesting
14:32<@Belugas>ln, nly for those who do not know what it's all about
14:32<ln>Yexo: i'd argue commit messages should be understandable without reading FS and without having a thorough knowledge of the code.
14:33<Yexo>I'd agree with that for most commits, but this is a commit only interesting for newgrf authors, and they will understand what it is about
14:34<@Belugas>ln, if i've told you that now, grf authors can specify the exact amount of production level while doing monthly or random industry production changes callbacks, would have it made much of a difference?
14:34<ln>Belugas: of course.
14:35<@Belugas>yeah right...
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14:41<Wolf01>when newobjects will be implemented (if) they might be like "Feature: added support for property 0x08" or whatever is the newobjects property
14:41<Yexo>just like it was with aquaduct support
14:41<Wolf01>s/they/the commit message
14:42<Wolf01>nice compression "the"+=zip(" commit message","y")
14:43<yorick>and the trams
14:45<@Belugas>iirc, newindustries was about as "cryptic"
14:46<@Belugas>but hey, you are all supposed to be big boyz now, who can work out things by themselves
14:46<@Belugas>well... most of yu are..
14:46<@Belugas>there are still some BABIES
14:46<@Belugas>who need to have it all cooked in the mouth!
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15:03<DaleStan>frosch123, Yexo: Which production message does CB29/35 result 0F display?
15:05<DaleStan>Also, the code says "high word of register 100h", but the spec says "third byte of register 100h". Which is it?
15:05<Wolf01>hahaha @ welshdragon :D
15:05<frosch123>0D and 0E also do not display a news message
15:06<frosch123>and we prefer the specs version :)
15:07<Yexo>DaleStan: the code clamps the high word to a value between 0...128, so the highest byte is never used
15:07<DaleStan>But if the high word is set to 100h, then that clamps to 128, not 4.
15:07<frosch123>Yexo: that is not true
15:08<Yexo>DaleStan: I overlooked that case
15:08<Yexo>frosch123: so what should it be?
15:08<frosch123>8 bits are enough
15:09<frosch123>so there is no point in using bits 24..31
15:09<DaleStan>I say third byte too, leaving the fourth for something else.
15:09<frosch123>they are reserved and should be set to 0
15:12<DaleStan>0D .. 0F do display a custom message if present, correct?
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15:24<Char>you know what would be great?
15:24<CIA-5>OpenTTD: frosch * r14562 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14561): 8 bits are enough. The rest stays reserved.
15:24<Char>a patch that color-codes the railway lines by their usage
15:24<Char>green for < 3 trains / month
15:24<Char>yellow for 3-10 trains / month
15:24<Char>orange for 10-20 trains / month
15:24<Char>red for > 20 trains / month
15:25<frosch123>search for "grass growth on unused tracks" on the forums
15:25<Char>such a thing does exist?
15:26<Char>but that is only for unused tracks
15:26<Char>would be nice to have a coding for used ones, too
15:27<SmatZ>there were patches that implemented train counter for waypoints
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15:30<@Belugas>yeah, and the waypont gui came from one of those
15:31<@Belugas>so... it means that there is VERY little to add to have the functionality
15:31<@Belugas>and I know a big file who has that (iirc)
15:32<Aali>planetmaker was working on a train counter patch, no?
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15:32<Aali>or atleast toying with the concept
15:32<planetmaker>Aali: yes. The old tracks / grass on tracks patch *could* be modified such
15:32<planetmaker>But actually it's difficult. Too little space
15:33<Aali>only one byte left if you allow signals, right?
15:33<planetmaker>So, only statistics for short time intervals are possible or you could just use the number which that patch already has: increasing a counter every few ticks and decreasing it with every usage.
15:34<planetmaker>yeah. We might get 1 1/2 bytes. But that's all you have.
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15:34<frosch123>if you would not change the grass growth amount every time a train or time passes, but would use some random, you could live with a lot less bits
15:35<planetmaker>frosch123: I'm not sure I understand you.
15:35<Aali>welshdragon: whats your point?
15:35<welshdragon>Aali, i was showing how crap my playing style is
15:35<frosch123>well, you can either reduce grass after 10 trains passed, or you can reduce it with a chance on 10% when one train passes
15:36<Aali>welshdragon: right, carry on then :P
15:36<planetmaker>frosch123: he. true. That's an idea.
15:36<frosch123>in the first case you have to count from 1 to 10 somewhere, in the second you have to care of desyncs
15:36<planetmaker>making it depend upon chance... hm.
15:36<planetmaker>But desyncs are no issue, if everything else goes right :)
15:36<welshdragon>Aali, if you want to photoshop an alternative, be my guest :P
15:37<Aali>of course, you can sacrifice precision
15:37<Aali>but you still only have 8 bits of information
15:37<planetmaker>Aali: if you want to sacrifice precision, it's feasable. Doing that by using chance is a good idea indeed.
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15:38<planetmaker>That's fine. But with a chance approach you can still count each train - statistically :P
15:38<planetmaker>frosch123: thanks for the idea :)
15:38<Aali>i guess 256 possible states is plenty, if you can distribute it evenly
15:39<planetmaker>It's 2560 trains, with 10% chance - sufficient for a year or so.
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15:39*frosch123 likes supplies other with work :p
15:39<Aali>i was thinking you could measure the relative usage
15:39<planetmaker>but you still have the problem to store the value of the previous year when you want yearly statistics.
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15:40<Aali>but exact numbers are useful too, i guess
15:40<planetmaker>:D frosch123, feels nice, eh? :)
15:40<planetmaker>Aali: relative usage is already done with the current patch.
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15:41<Aali>yeah but it has only 4 states, and they dont adapt to usage
15:41<Yexo>planetmaker: are yearly statistics needed for *every* piece of track? You can also choose to only store statistics for some tiles, like waypoints and stations
15:41<planetmaker>but if you want to dive into it, Aali : go for it :)
15:41<planetmaker>Yexo: yes.
15:41<Aali>i do not :P
15:41<Aali>i too like giving others work to do :P
15:41<planetmaker>My time is very limited for the rest of the year and chances are good I won't have time to look at it before 2009.
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15:42<Aali>but yes, i'm thinking waypoints for exact numbers and then just measure everything else relatively
15:43<Aali>do waypoints have off-map storage?
15:44<Yexo>Aali: yes
15:44<Aali>sweet, then you could do all sorts of statistics at them
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15:55<planetmaker>Yexo: about the definition of "needed", of course, long debates may be held
15:56<planetmaker>but to see how efficient certain track layouts are, a tile-wise number is quite nice :)
15:57<planetmaker>but to me it seems like a patch which I don't want to propose for trunk inclusion :)
15:57<Aali>lets just make a patch that counts how many times trains have to slow down/stop at a tile
15:58<planetmaker>it's far too much memory for too little gain :)
15:58<Yexo>planetmaker: I was talking about the yearly statistics, as I doubt there is much use for them. Of course for statistics about the usage (whether it is last month, last year or another timespan) is useful per tile (or at least track segment)
15:59<planetmaker>Yexo: sure, the time span is also something which needs discussion. Maybe monthly is sufficient. But even then 8 bit is not much
15:59<planetmaker>if you count every train
15:59<Yexo>255 trains per month? that seems enough
15:59<@Rubidium>256 trains on one tile per month?
15:59<Yexo>it may not be for 2-tile maglev trains
15:59<@Rubidium>only the other hand...
15:59<@Belugas>not sure yearly stats is usefull at all
16:00<@Rubidium>8 bits is only enough for counting up 15 trains
16:00<@Rubidium>cause there can be two tracks on a tile
16:01<Aali>^ the man has a point
16:01<Yexo>sure, but even with two counter it'll fail on crossing tiles
16:02<@Rubidium>hmm, yeah you ofcourse needs stats for each trackbit
16:02<@Rubidium>maybe add average waiting time for signals too?
16:02<Aali>so its probably easier to stick to per-tile counters
16:02<@Rubidium>and a moving average of the speed
16:03<Yexo>that one is doable, as you can store that per vehicle :p
16:03<@Rubidium>Yexo: per vehicle per tile?
16:03*Belugas wonders how usefull would be a train-counter-object, someting totally devoted to that task
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16:04<frosch123>or per VirtTileCoord
16:04*Rubidium wonders how useful train counts actually are
16:04<Yexo>Belugas: what is wrong with using waypoints for that?
16:04<@Rubidium>oh... the track is not busy at all; only two trains a month
16:05<Yexo>it'd be very usefull information for an AI!
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16:05<@Belugas>waypoints serve to somehting else. it's not made for counting. therefor, anything that visually wold be required would feel like a hack, to me at least
16:05<@Rubidium>or is it busy as the trains are going an average of 10 km/h and are 100 pieces long
16:06<planetmaker>Rubidium definitely has a point. Which hasn't been addressed so far at all :P
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16:06<@Rubidium>he look, I've stopped the train and now the track isn't busy anymore ;)
16:07<Aali>still, getting a number on just how many trains your station/junction/whatever can handle would be nice
16:07<planetmaker>Rubidium: that's something which is ok IMO.
16:07<@Rubidium>then what use it is?
16:07<Yexo>maybe the percentage of time a piece of track is reserved by a train can indicate how busy a tile is
16:07<planetmaker>Yexo: no.
16:08<@Rubidium>the efficient areas glow bright red because many trains are running, but the troublesome areas are green because trains are waiting and such
16:08<planetmaker>it will mean something completely different for two-tile-trains than for 20 tile trains
16:08<Aali>knowing how busy a tile is is easy, just look at it
16:08<planetmaker>Rubidium: that's what sort-of the current patch does.
16:08<frosch123>Yexo: did you consider to analyse the cargo when a vehicle arrives at its destination? i.e. cargo knows its age
16:08<planetmaker>Gras is where there are few
16:08<Aali>counting how many trains are going into your station is tedious
16:09<planetmaker>Numbers would be nice sometimes to tune or evaluate your network or parts thereof, comparing different designs.
16:09<Yexo>frosch123: there is no such thing as a 'callback for cargo arrival'. So that would mean checking every vehicle to see if it's near it's destination every so often
16:09<@Rubidium>why is it important to know the number of trains?
16:10<planetmaker>Rubidium: assessment of efficiency. Of throughput
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16:10<@Rubidium>you want to know where the busy spots are
16:10<frosch123>didn't rondje sell vehicles when they arrived at their destination?
16:10<Yexo>planetmaker: why would the time a tile is reserved have a different meaning for 2-tile trains then for 20-tile trains?
16:10<@Rubidium>not how busy they are
16:10<Yexo>frosch123: it does, but it can only handle +-500 vehicle with that strategy (and that is with AI set to full speed)
16:10<planetmaker>Yexo: a tile stays reserved until the train passed. You talked about "percent time a tile is reserved"
16:11<Yexo>and it doesn't build it's own road routes in that time, which is very expensive
16:11<planetmaker>Rubidium: why wouldn't I want to know _how_ busy they are?
16:12<Yexo>planetmaker: I know that, but I think it's an indication of the capacity of the line. It also works if you stop a train, because the tile will remain reserved
16:12<frosch123>well, but you could observe a single train on its travel, before adding a new vehicle for the same route
16:12<planetmaker>yexo: that's true, for sure :)
16:12<Yexo>frosch123: that is possible, but would require major restructuring in my AI, and that is not worth the effort atm
16:13<Yexo>and there is no foolproof way of following a single vehicle, because users can mess with it (only via cheating, but still)
16:13<Char>one question
16:13<Char>did anyone of you ever manage to get a rating of 0% at any station?
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16:14<Yexo>I never tried to, so I don't know
16:14<Char>i did
16:14<Char>by accident
16:14<Char>but still
16:16-!-mortal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:17<Prof_Frink>Yes, accident is the easiest way to drop a station's rating to 0%.
16:18<Prof_Frink>Have a train crash at/near your station and watch the rating fall through the floor
16:19<@Belugas>fall ... through the roof... it was on the second floor...
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16:19<@Belugas>and got o the first...
16:19<@Belugas>true, quite a drop
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16:39<Sacro>There is no idea what is going to be in 0.7.0.
16:39<Sacro>(More information: Roadmap 0.7)
16:40<planetmaker>cargodest + noai :) ?
16:44<@Belugas>somewhere this year or next year
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16:46<SmatZ>or 2010
16:46<SmatZ>maybe later
16:46<Char>is there a way to make trains prefer certain routes other than placing PBS facing the wrong direction?
16:47<SmatZ>build a level crossing or place a 1-tile station
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16:47<SmatZ>depends on pathfinder
16:47<SmatZ>bridges can be used too
16:51<Char>the route to be preferred actually has a lot of bridges :P
16:52<Char>my railroad system is getting a little complicated at the moment....
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16:56<welshdragon>badum! tish!
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16:58<@Belugas>night boyz
16:59<planetmaker>good night Belugas :)
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17:35<planetmaker>petern around?
17:36<welshdragon>no, he's square
17:36<rortom>square dancing?
17:36<rortom>err, line dancing?
17:36<TrueBrain>ugly sight, I tell you
17:37<rortom>ah, TrueBrain you got the name of the 70m climging hall?
17:37<TrueBrain>forgot all about it :(
17:37<rortom>you said i should remind you ;)
17:37<Prof_Frink>Funny name for a wall ;)
17:37<rortom>no problem really ;)
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18:09<Char>you know what sucks?
18:09<welshdragon>you suck guys for money :P
18:09<Char>when your delivered cargo amount drops by 50% within half a year and you got no idea why
18:10<Char>welshdragon: well not exactly.... i take girls
18:10<TrueBrain>you suck girls?
18:10<Char>well, however you call that
18:10<Char>i dont know
18:10*welshdragon rofl
18:11<Char>at least: no guys ;)
18:11<TrueBrain>clearly, you don't know indeed
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>but... i have never actually seen you with a girl
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>suspicious, don't you think?
18:11<Char>actually.... no
18:12<Char>but: good point
18:12<Char>i guess that having ~40 trains service the same station which has only 3 platforms was not the best idea ever
18:12<TrueBrain>not for getting girls, indeed
18:13<Char>thats kind of another topic
18:13<Char>you seem to want to speak about that... is there anything that bothers you?
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea why people always say "x trains for y platforms" while that has no indication about how many trains actually visit the station _simultaneously_
18:14<welshdragon>Char, you're famous -
18:14<Char>the problem is
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>because 40 trains on a 50 tile route is much different than 40 trains on a 500 tile route
18:14<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: depends on the TL ;)
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>and 40 3 tile trains are much different than 40 20 tile trains
18:15<Char>welshdragon: ;)
18:15<Char>the problem is
18:15<Char>that it is a coal station
18:15<Char>and they are waiting for full load
18:15<Char>and i got two feeder stations
18:15-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:16<Char>which used to feed from coal mines which were at 100% (ultimate) producing ~1000 tons of coal a month
18:16-!-elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:16<Char>one of the feeder coal mines exhausted
18:16<Char>which caused a tailback so long
18:17<Char>that it congests one of my major lines at the other end of the map
18:17<Char>which, well.... sucks
18:17<Char>is there a way to remove only parts of a station?
18:17<@Rubidium>yeah, with a Volvo BM50 or something similar
18:18<Char>you can't be serious, can you?
18:19<@Rubidium>it's a bulldozer...
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>press the 'R' key when building a station
18:21<@Rubidium>or A 9 R in that order
18:22<TrueBrain>Char: can you ask question not answerd N time on forum and wiki?
18:25<fjb>(void *) &Char
18:25<TrueBrain>$ (null)
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause>brand new idea: sleep!
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>we haven't worked out the details yet :p
18:31<TrueBrain>scared me there
18:32<Korenn>Eddi|zuHause: post it on the suggestions forum and try and explain what it adds to gameplay
18:37<Char>TrueBrain: yes i can, however it is pretty hard to find what you are looking for in the forum :/
18:37<Char>i got another one but now i am afraid of asking
18:38<Char>but thanks anyways for the answer ;)
18:38<Char>@ Eddi|zuHause
18:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14563 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_industries.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp): (log message trimmed)
18:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2395]: in the case that an industry NewGRF, a shared TTDPatch and
18:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: OpenTTD feature with it's origin in TTDPatch to replace/add/change vehicles
18:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: (including e.g. maximum speed, graphics and introduction year), stations,
18:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: bridges, industries, town houses or any other graphics used by either
18:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: TTDPatch or OpenTTD, would tell that building an industry is okay, which
18:42<CIA-5>OpenTTD: is queried using a so-called callback that allows the NewGRF author to
18:44<Aali>that log message is quite long..
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>i'd assume it's a response to the discussion about "add feature XY" discussion above :p
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>"overcompensation" :p
18:45<+glx>he wanted detailled log
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd commit
18:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r14563 /trunk/src (newgrf_industries.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp) (2008-11-03 23:42:07 UTC)
18:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Fix [FS#2395]: in the case that an industry NewGRF, a shared TTDPatch and
18:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD feature with it's origin in TTDPatch to replace/add/change vehicles
18:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: (including e.g. maximum speed, graphics and introduction year), stations,
18:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: bridges, industries, town houses or any other graphics used by either
18:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: (...)
18:46<TrueBrain>I hope he realises what he did ..
18:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Error: You haven't asked me a command; perhaps you want to see someone else's more. To do so, call this command with that person's nick.
18:46<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: DorpsGek refuses to send more data ;)
18:46<+glx>trimmed without more
18:47<+glx>weird bot ;)
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>your bot is broken
18:47<DaleStan>"what he did" being "write a commit message that's longer than the diff"?
18:48<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: no, your expetation of the bot are too high
18:49<+glx>but for most commands there is a @more when the text is too long
18:49<TrueBrain>but this isn't a normal command ;)
18:49<TrueBrain>as 'normal' would mean it would put everything on a single line
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>sorry for expecting a unified interface :p
18:49<+glx>of course in this case it's not a too long text
18:49<+glx>it's a spam kill prevention
18:50<TrueBrain>yup :)
18:50<svippy>Ah, #openttd, the only sane channel on my list.
18:50<TrueBrain>DaleStan: wrong "he"
18:51<svippy>Except Sacro, obviously.
18:51<TrueBrain>and you, obviously
18:51<svippy>Well, thanks, Captain Obvious.
18:51<DaleStan>Oh, that he.
18:51<TrueBrain>Your welcome. Let me send you the bill
18:51<svippy>Next you'll tell me I am writing messages through an IRC channel.
18:52<TrueBrain>DaleStan: indeed, that he
18:52<@Rubidium>DaleStan: there were some people complaining that "implement action 0 feature 1 property 2" isn't clear for some people
18:53<Char>wow.... i just spent 1.2 billion on new vehicles in < 3 months
18:53<@Rubidium>that's not hard
18:53<DaleStan>Anyone for whom that isn't clear doesn't need to know.
18:53<TrueBrain>DaleStan: now you confuse us more ...
18:54<TrueBrain>we need to write more clear log messages
18:54<TrueBrain>and we don't
18:54<+glx>DaleStan: indeed
18:54<TrueBrain>which person should we follow and believe?
18:54<svippy>I cannot tolerate the other channels, TrueBrain, I have a guy who supports Palin (scary!), a girl who's an artist (need I say more?), some guy keeps making love to Windows 7 (talk about foreplay) and some guy who thinks Monkey Island 4 is a great game.
18:54<Char>Rubidium: still, that means that i am basically back to 0
18:54<Char>with money
18:54<+glx>newgrf support is for newgrf writers
18:54<TrueBrain>svippy: welcome to sanity :)
18:54<@Rubidium>Char: in Zimbabwe one could easily spend 1.2 billion for a used car
18:54-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
18:54<DaleStan>I never said that the messages were unclear.
18:55<+glx>we never said you said it :)
18:55<svippy>TrueBrain: So far this Futurama wiki have kept me sane.
18:56<TrueBrain>and that is sane ... how?
18:56<+glx>and for me "implement action 0 feature 1 property 2" is clear enough, if someone wants more details there's a wiki
18:56<SmatZ> or for lunch
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>for certain definitions of "sane" :p
18:56<svippy>TrueBrain: Management. Treating sitcom elements as fact. That is actually quite a lot of work.
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: if i adjust the decimal to a reasonable point, and this would be 12,43€, but i wouldn't want to dig my portemonnaie for 255 microcents
18:59<TrueBrain>I have a few of those!
18:59<svippy>TrueBrain: Trust me, it is what keeps me sane.
18:59<TrueBrain>svippy: find an other hobby :)
18:59<svippy>Also, TrueBrain, Futurama is awesome.
18:59-!-Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]
18:59<svippy>I have a hobby.
18:59<svippy>And it's written "another".
18:59<svippy>I have plenty of hobbies.
18:59<svippy>Are you dissing Futurama, TrueBrain?
19:00<TrueBrain>svippy: well, other people find Palin awesome (indeed scary), girls like artists, guys love Windows 7, and gay people love Monkey Island 4 ... everyone his 'sane' hobby ;)
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>what he meant to say: find a girlfriend
19:00-!-Vikthor [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:00<+glx>svippy: you know TrueBrain owns a bot ;)
19:00<Char>Rubidium: still, this is not zimbawe
19:00<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: tnx ;)
19:00<Char>and yes, inflation is on, but it is before 2000
19:00<svippy>glx: I used to. It was crap.
19:00<svippy>Eddi|zuHause: If so, I won't be betting on it, if I were you.
19:01<svippy>Hell, *I* wouldn't even bet on it.
19:01<TrueBrain>svippy: okay, find a boyfriend
19:01<TrueBrain>we don't really care
19:01<svippy>I am just saying my chances are slim.
19:01<svippy>Wait, you don't care.
19:01<svippy>Got it.
19:01<TrueBrain>wow, he is fast!
19:01<TrueBrain>and yes, I was dissing Futurama
19:01<svippy>TrueBrain: You cannot be serious.
19:02<TrueBrain>can you?
19:02<svippy>I can.
19:02<svippy>And I am right now.
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>i can't ever stay serious when talking about futurama...
19:03*benjamingoodger has probably entered the conversation at a bad time
19:03<TrueBrain>I am trying to hold back, but I have to agree with Eddi|zuHause on this one .. I fail too either :)
19:03<TrueBrain>benjamingoodger: is there ever such thing as a good time? :)
19:03<svippy>Well, just proves how good I am, TrueBrain and Eddi|zuHause.
19:03<benjamingoodger>possibly not
19:03<benjamingoodger>as such I am unable to determine whether svippy is a troll or is being picked on unnecessarily
19:03<TrueBrain>svippy: great in which opinion? Of the small people?
19:03<TrueBrain>benjamingoodger: I still wonder about that too :)
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>and it's not even friday
19:04<svippy>TrueBrain: Obviously, the conversation of Futurama did not lead you to suspect I was quoting the very same show.
19:04<+glx>well he's Danish ;)
19:04<TrueBrain>svippy: to 'detect' a quote, you have to be an addict
19:04<TrueBrain>which clearly, I am not
19:04<svippy>True, I am an addict, and my friends call it scary.
19:05<svippy>And now that I think about it, it is a bit scary.
19:05<TrueBrain>so ... where does the sane part come in?
19:05<benjamingoodger>oh, for goodness' sake
19:05<svippy>TrueBrain: I stand corrected. It what was all along did not keep me sane.
19:05<svippy>I wonder what does keep me sane then?
19:05<benjamingoodger>I can quote the episode title and, in many cases, number of practically any futurama quote you care to give me
19:05<benjamingoodger>this does not make me insane
19:05<murr4y>I stand correct
19:05<svippy>And the title captions as well, benjamingoodger?
19:06<TrueBrain>I tihnk I should now go to an other channel, and say: I cannot tolerate the other channels, NNN, I have a guy who supports Palin (scary!), a girl who's an artist (need I say more?), some guy keeps making love to Windows 7 (talk about foreplay), some guy who thinks Monkey Island 4 is a great game, and some guy loving Futurama (for heavons sake)
19:06<benjamingoodger>svippy: only for one episode.
19:06<TrueBrain>benjamingoodger: clearly you missed a part of this beautiful conversation
19:06<svippy>Ooo, benjamingoodger.
19:06<svippy>Not good enough.
19:06<benjamingoodger>TrueBrain: I already said that
19:06<benjamingoodger>svippy: my point is that I am not insane for knowing all of this
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>i could not name a single episode, let alone arrange them in any order
19:07<svippy>I don't consider myself insane, benjamingoodger.
19:07<TrueBrain>I wouldn't even know what it is about :)
19:07<benjamingoodger>well, I don't consider you insane either
19:07<benjamingoodger>well, that's to be determined, but I don't consider you insane due to futurama obsession
19:07<svippy>Well, well. Seems like we've settled something here tonight.
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>says one crazy person to the other
19:07<TrueBrain>svippy: no, you just agree'd with benjamingoodger on something
19:07<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause and I still think you are insane
19:07<svippy>And that is not settling something?
19:08<svippy>Still? You had settled that earlier?
19:08<TrueBrain>we just established that
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>but i am not denying it :p
19:08<benjamingoodger>do calm down, everyone
19:08<svippy>Damn politician, Eddi|zuHause!
19:08<TrueBrain>lol @ Eddi|zuHause
19:08<TrueBrain>benjamingoodger: don't take everything too seriously :)
19:08<svippy>benjamingoodger: I just mentioned I ran a Futurama Wiki, and suddenly I am insane.
19:08<benjamingoodger>oh, cool
19:09<benjamingoodger>I have been patiently struggling to start a wiki for some time :)
19:09<svippy>Why would you start a competing wiki?
19:09<TrueBrain>svippy: no, what makes you insane, is that you can't tolerate people who love Windows 7, but we should tolerate you loving Futurama?
19:09<benjamingoodger>not a competing wiki
19:09<svippy>No, TrueBrain, I cannot tolerate *this specific guy* who loves Windows 7.
19:10<svippy>I have met him in Real Life.
19:10<benjamingoodger>this wiki is to document the goings-on of a separate canon I propose to establish with my first book, for purposes of allowing people to make creative-commons stuff using it
19:10<svippy>Your first book?
19:10-!-mcbane [] has quit []
19:10<benjamingoodger>yes, I intend to write others afterward
19:10<svippy>And your first book be about?
19:10<benjamingoodger>well, generally, it's about politics and economics
19:11<svippy>Sounds fun.
19:11<svippy>A lot different from my book.
19:11<benjamingoodger>but it takes the form of a black comedy
19:11<svippy>Which is about space and the future.
19:11<svippy>Oh, so it is fun?
19:11<TrueBrain>and your book comes off the shelves, and benjamingoodger write his own
19:11<benjamingoodger>it's meant to be funny, yes
19:11<svippy>No, TrueBrain, I am actually writing it.
19:12<TrueBrain>a summary of Futurama, I guess?
19:12<benjamingoodger>but the characters deal with economic issues
19:12<svippy>What you think I am, stupid, TrueBrain?
19:12<svippy>I have a wiki.
19:12<svippy>That ought to be enough.
19:12<svippy>Write a book about Futurama.
19:12<TrueBrain>svippy: no, the words 'scary' and 'insane' only passed by I believe
19:12<svippy>I mean come on!? I might as well just print the wiki.
19:13<svippy>Anyways, TrueBrain, we were talking about benjamingoodger's book, not mine.
19:13<TrueBrain>benjamingoodger: can we get a pre-copy when it is done?
19:13<TrueBrain>svippy: you started about your book
19:13<benjamingoodger>TrueBrain: well, sure, it will be available online as creative commons. but I will be asking for donations toward a planned film version
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>i should start a book...
19:14-!-sigmund_ [] has joined #openttd
19:14<benjamingoodger>svippy: email me at benjamingoodger*at* when your book is complete and I will personally ensure that you receive a high royalty rate if you wish to publish with my company
19:14<svippy>TrueBrain: I just mentioned it, you made me seem silly.
19:14<benjamingoodger>yes, everyone write books
19:14<benjamingoodger>lots of books
19:14<svippy>What is your company, benjamingoodger?
19:14<svippy>And where is it based?
19:14<benjamingoodger>FLES Books, based in the United Kingdom
19:14<TrueBrain>I can only write boring books ;)
19:15<svippy>Mmm... United Kingdom.
19:15<benjamingoodger>TrueBrain: your book can be boring if you like
19:15<svippy>Good thing, benjamingoodger, my book is written in pure British English.
19:15<benjamingoodger>svippy: we only work online though, so please notify my email address above
19:15<benjamingoodger>well, we don't discriminate against other languages...
19:15-!-sigmund [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:15*Rubidium likes the retro design of
19:16<svippy>You should, against American English, benjamingoodger.
19:16<benjamingoodger>Rubidium: nice, isn't it :D
19:16<svippy>Ooooh, it tickles me when I see 'colour' spelt wrong.
19:16<benjamingoodger>Rubidium: the webapp is in final stages of testing, I promise you
19:16*SmatZ colors svippy
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>svippy: there is not even an authority that can divide the two apart
19:16<svippy>Nooooooooo, SmatZ.
19:16<TrueBrain>benjamingoodger: btw, I was serious, I have a high interest in what you are writing :)
19:16<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: except the Webster and Oxford dictionaries
19:17<TrueBrain>(just to underline the rest is /me being bored ;))
19:17<benjamingoodger>TrueBrain: ah, in that case, permission to PM?
19:17<svippy>TrueBrain: On the contrary to my book, which your assumption about has already dismayed it entirely.
19:17<svippy>Oh, boy, maybe I shouldn't write it at all now!
19:17<benjamingoodger>calm down, svippy
19:17<TrueBrain>svippy: you just made a bad entry, and made yourself a really easy target :)
19:18<benjamingoodger>perhaps if you told us about it
19:18<TrueBrain>but I will refrain myself from dissing you any further :)
19:18<svippy>But you are sweet, TrueBrain.
19:18<TrueBrain>I know
19:18<svippy>That's why they call them sweets in Britain.
19:19<svippy>benjamingoodger: I also know a scary bit of difference between British and American English. Despite being dyslexic.
19:19<TrueBrain>lysdectic :)
19:19<svippy>Ooooh, he's a funny one. :)
19:19<TrueBrain>no, I always tell peopple that, then they understand immeaditly what you mean :)
19:20<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause sees them flying...
19:21*Eddi|zuHause never understood why the english people can't speak a "p" before a "t" or an "s"
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>in many greek words, the germans say the "p" while it is silent in english
19:22<svippy>Fear not, Eddi|zuHause.
19:22<benjamingoodger>you say "pa-neumatic"?
19:22<svippy>A campaign in the UK is moving Latin words out of English, Eddi|zuHause.
19:22<+glx>I just say "pneu"
19:22<svippy>On the grounds that "e.g." could be confused with "eggs".
19:23<Tefad>but fast
19:23<benjamingoodger>good grief
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, we germans speak the "p" also in "pneumatisch"
19:23<benjamingoodger>without e.g. where will we get our exemplary gratuities?
19:23-!-Yabada [] has quit []
19:24<svippy>I dunno, people use "i.e." thinking it stands for "in example".
19:24<TrueBrain>people here are trying to ban english words from the dutch language ... the alternatives they bring are so much fun :)
19:24<svippy>Which btw, doesn't make sense either.
19:24<Tefad>isn't ie 'such that' or similar
19:24<svippy>What the hell is "in example"?
19:24<svippy>I know, Tefad, id est.
19:24<svippy>That is.
19:24<TrueBrain>svippy: from german/dutch, that does make sense ;)
19:24<svippy>:P TrueBrain.
19:24<Tefad>so why not get rid of all the latin phrases in law and science?
19:24<svippy>e.g. is exempli gradia.
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>svippy: we germans have a proper german abbreviation for "zum Beispiel"
19:25<Tefad>i think the problem is lack of education
19:25<svippy>I am no fan of plain English.
19:25<benjamingoodger>the problem is a lack of common sense
19:25<svippy>I spell mêlée with the diacritics.
19:25<benjamingoodger>people feel more intelligent by saying "your present interlocutor" than they do by saying "I"
19:26<Tefad>i know people that say mee-lee
19:26<TrueBrain>L.S. ;)
19:26<svippy>Naïveté is one of my favourites.
19:27<+glx>that's french
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>i have never had a conversation where i felt the need to use the word "mêlée"
19:27<TrueBrain>melee attack?! :)
19:27<svippy>glx: But also exists in English.
19:27<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: just talk about rugby
19:27-!-Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
19:27-!-Yeggzzz [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:27<svippy>Or play some D&D.
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>i have never had the need to have a conversation about rugby either
19:27<svippy>Who has?
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>svippy: that'd still require the D&D game to be held in english, which is rather unlikely
19:29<svippy>Ah, true.
19:29<svippy>You guys translate everything in order to be as bad as English as possible.
19:29<svippy>Just like the French.
19:29<benjamingoodger>svippy: I have college tomorrow, but do please email me about your book if you want my company to publish it... we quote 70% as a royalty rate*, which at a very rough estimate is about 3€ per copy
19:30<svippy>Watching Futurama in French or German is not my cup of tea.
19:30<benjamingoodger>good night, everybody
19:30<svippy>Good night.
19:30<benjamingoodger>oh, and americans:
19:30<benjamingoodger>if you don't vote tomorrow, and mccain wins, I will hold you personally responsible
19:30<svippy>I'll consider it, benjamingoodger. But I am still far from getting to publishing stages.
19:30<svippy>To translate what benjamingoodger wrote, "Don't fsck this up, America!"
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>someone said that mccains program sounds actually better for europe
19:31<TrueBrain>night benjamingoodger
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>but nobody listens to what politicians say anyway
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's all about charisma
19:31<svippy>Eddi|zuHause: You know, Conservative Europeans.
19:32<svippy>O_O Some guy said something.
19:32<svippy>Better print it on the front pages.
19:32-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
19:33-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, for the purpose of my statement, it is irrelevant who said it or if it was actually true...
19:33-!-benjamingoodger [] has quit [Quit: +++ Out Of Cheese Error +++]
19:33-!-benjamingoodger [] has joined #openttd
19:34<svippy>Dropped you a mail, benjamingoodger.
19:35<benjamingoodger>thank you, sir
19:35*benjamingoodger is away, however
19:35<svippy>I can tell.
19:35<benjamingoodger>thank you for your email
19:35<benjamingoodger>good night
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, from what i have seen of mccain, he seems like a sensible person, and as soon as mister gwb is gone, the low point should be over, no matter who is next
19:36<svippy>I like McCain.
19:36<SmatZ>I like Palin, she's sexy
19:36<TrueBrain>I dig Palin
19:36<TrueBrain>but damn, she is stupid
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>i know nothing really about palin
19:39<welshdragon>is nachname surname?
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>the only thing i know is that tina fey played palin a sketch, and then palin played fey in a sketch
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, welshdragon
19:40<welshdragon>Eddi|zuHause, fill this in for me
19:41<welshdragon>or at least tell me what the cell titles are :P
19:41-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>and i can't imagine swiss pages not being available in at least half a dozen languages...
19:43-!-benjamingoodger [] has quit [Quit: +++ Out Of Cheese Error +++]
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>i mean they have 4 native languages anyway...
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i can't see the page you are seeing... it tells me i have no products selected
19:45<welshdragon>the chechout's still in german :(
19:45<welshdragon>yeah, it's because it uses cookies.... bastard
19:50-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:56<welshdragon>i'll have to wait for my Schrägglas
19:59-!-Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
20:02<welshdragon>that was fast o_O
20:08-!-rubyruy [] has joined #openttd
20:13-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:14-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
20:15<SpComb>Current date: 37686-10-19
20:16<SmatZ>Captain's log...
20:16<SpComb>well, grab 0.5.3 and join said game...
20:17<SpComb>but it's too late now, I just shut it down
20:17<TrueBrain>0.5.3 ...
20:17<SpComb>hmm... forgot to take a look at how much CPU time they had accumulated
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>i have never had a release build since
20:17<SpComb>might have reached into the thousands of hours by now
20:18<TrueBrain>why would you use 0.5.3 ...
20:18*SpComb shut down myottd
20:18<TrueBrain>that explains :)
20:19<SpComb> # Uptime | System Boot up
20:19<SpComb>-> 1 356 days, 10:46:57 | Linux 2.6.18-5-amd64 Tue Nov 13 16:31:54 2007
20:19<SpComb>hmm... only nine more days until a full year...
20:19<SpComb>well, as someone on thedailywtf forums just said, there's 356 days to a year
20:19<TrueBrain>356, lol :)
20:19<Eddi|zuHause> 2:19am an 8 Tage 12:03, 18 Benutzer, Durchschnittslast: 0,06, 0,21, 0,32
20:20*SpComb just shut it down as well
20:20<TrueBrain>55 days here :p
20:20*SpComb has 577 days on his other server
20:20<TrueBrain>110 days on an other ..
20:20<TrueBrain>110 days ago we moved to a new DC..
20:20<TrueBrain>though luck :p
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>well, i have a faulty disk, and my system is much more stable since i realised i still had swap on that disk :p
20:21-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:21<+glx>how did it take for you to realise that?
20:21<SmatZ>my server lock ups for some unknown reason
20:21<SmatZ>temperature is normal, nothing is going on
20:22<TrueBrain> 02:21:54 up 333 days, 22:17, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
20:22<SmatZ>then it locks up...
20:22<TrueBrain>333 days .. hmm .. :)
20:22<TrueBrain>SmatZ: kernel panic?
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: yeah, that's the same symptom as my problem
20:22<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I don't know, I am running X there (it is used as TV sometimes)
20:22<SmatZ>but keyboard doesn't blink
20:22<TrueBrain> 03:22:28 up 3:23, 4 users, load average: 0.01, 0.07, 0.08 <- Hahahahaha :) (my working station :p)
20:22<SmatZ>it just locks
20:23<TrueBrain>anyway, good night to you all :)
20:23<SmatZ>02:23:22 up 5 days, 5:58, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.03
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>glx: quite long, i'm afraid
20:23<SmatZ>TrueBrain: CEST there?
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>on average, the system ran for a week for the past few months
20:24<SmatZ>same here :)
20:25<SmatZ> I don't think the disk is broken there
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, it could be faulty RAM as well
20:37<rubyruy>i am trying to edit nshp_ecs.grf (it updates newships to work with ecs) so i can fix the Bulk Freighter not accepting Fish... is this actually much harder then it sounds? :/
20:38<rubyruy>so 1 little mistery right off the bat is... are the cargo IDs mentioned in this list: going to be the same values used in the nfo file?
20:39<Aali>thats very simple actually, just modify the refit mask
20:39<Aali>they might be
20:39<Aali>unless there's a cargo translation table
20:39<rubyruy>because you'd think then that every cargo ID would have to be mentioned in the nfo file at some point... but for instance 1D (Fiber corps) shows up nowhere in the nfo
20:39<Aali>thats not how it works
20:40<Aali>you can use cargo classes, for example
20:40<Aali>and the refit mask is just a bitfield, not a list
20:40<rubyruy>but wouldn't a line somewhere have ot add 1D to whatever cargo class at least?
20:40<rubyruy>oh shoo ... that could be in one of the ecs base grfs right?
20:40<Aali>cargo classes are a property of the cargo
20:41<rubyruy> <- nfo file
20:41<Aali>either way, try just flipping the listed bit in action 0, property 1D
20:42<rubyruy>like by adding a new line?
20:42<Aali>if that doesn't work you can look for the cargo translation table
20:42<rubyruy>where could i look up cargo classes for ecs?
20:42<Aali>you're not very comfortable with editing nfo files, eh?
20:43<rubyruy>no this is the first time i'm trying it
20:43<Aali>cargo classes and which cargoes belong to which classes are listed on the wiki
20:43<rubyruy>also not very comfortable with binary data formats in general... never thought i'd ever say this but it sure would be nice to be working with an XML based format ;)
20:43<Aali>thats the whole nfo?
20:44<rubyruy>that's just nshp_ecs.grf
20:44<Aali>oh, right, ships, i was thinking of trains
20:44<Aali>let me just look that up and i'll fix it for you
20:45<rubyruy>cool thanks :)
20:45<rubyruy>if you can point me in the right direction that would be great too - i'd love to be able to work with these things on my own
20:45<Aali>that long string of upper case characters is a cargo translation table btw
20:46<Aali>read up on action0
20:46<rubyruy>yeah i was actually going to ask - isn't that defined in the ecs base grfs somewhere?
20:46<Aali>cargo translation tables only apply to the vehicles defined in the same grf
20:47<rubyruy>ah ok
20:47<rubyruy>also i did look up action 00 08 but i just found out it can set 'global variables' didn't find out what exactly that entails
20:47<rubyruy>i assume the translation table is stored in such variable?
20:48<rubyruy>is "01 20 00 09" the 'name' ?
20:48<rubyruy>i guess it would be a location
20:49<rubyruy>or wait is the format of action 08 the same as action D ?
20:49<Aali>its an action0
20:50<Aali>feature 08
20:50<Aali>20 is the size of the table
20:50<Aali>09 is the code for cargo translation
20:51<rubyruy>oh OHHHHH
20:53<Aali>what does this ship accept?
20:53<Aali>because i assume you dont have the vehicle ID
20:55<rubyruy>so the line says set 01 properties of size 20 of variable 09 (cargo table)... what does the 00 mean?
20:55<rubyruy>the spec says "id"
20:55<Aali>20 00 is actually a word
21:00<rubyruy>hey so if i read that table right fiber (FICR) is still ID 1D
21:00<Aali>it seems that you're using pikka's construction vector though
21:00<rubyruy>i am
21:00<Aali>so all of the cargoes wont be correct
21:01<rubyruy>wait how can you tell from just the grf? :p
21:01<Aali>the image
21:01<rubyruy>so where does fiber actually get added to the ship?
21:01<Aali>that cargo translation table isn't used at all though
21:01<rubyruy>because of the construction vector?
21:01<Aali>the only thing that matters is the cargo translation table in newships
21:02<Aali>but i assume they're the same
21:02<rubyruy>i can check - i have it decompiled
21:03<Aali>you should also check for action0 properties 18 and 19
21:03<rubyruy>errr wait a sec but the newships cargo table won't have the ECS goods in it will it?
21:03<rubyruy>like why would it?
21:03<Aali>i think someone just assumed that cargo translation table would work anyway
21:03<Aali>i did the same mistake
21:03<Aali>but i actually moved around some of the cargoes, so i noticed it wasn't working ;)
21:04<Aali>did you run grf2html on newships?
21:04<Aali>that should make it easy to find refit masks/property 18/19
21:06<rubyruy>like editing newships.grf directly rather then the ecs fix?
21:06<Aali>nah, but you have to know if property 18/19 are set
21:06<Aali>they change the meaning of the refit mask
21:07<Aali>property 18/19 of course being refittable and non-refittable cargo classes
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>34 * 10 00 02 01 01 05 11 00 70 00 00 <- take this line for example
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>it sets the refit mask of the ship with ID 05
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>the last 4 bytes is the refit mask
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>each bit refers to an entry in the cargo translation table
21:10<Aali>there is no cargo translation table though
21:10<Aali>or, there is one, but its never used
21:10<rubyruy>grf2html == yay :)
21:11<rubyruy>this is much nicer
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>that may be true, but still you just need to flip the appropriate bit to enable the refit
21:13<Aali>unless cargo classes are set
21:13<Aali>they probably aren't though, since then you wouldn't need an ECS adapter
21:13<Eddi|zuHause>newships is very old
21:14<Eddi|zuHause>long before cargo classes and translation tables were introduced
21:14<Aali>rubyruy: but now that you have newships in html form, you can just look up the vehicle ID
21:15<rubyruy>well i'm not sure how actually :p
21:15<rubyruy>oh wait form newships duh
21:15<Aali>just find the name
21:15<Aali>its an action 4
21:15<Aali>the number will be your ID
21:16<Eddi|zuHause>there aren't that many ships :p
21:16<rubyruy>looks like 08
21:17<Eddi|zuHause>the biggest problem with flipping a bit is finding the right bit to flip :)
21:17<Aali>there's a nice table of all the bits
21:17<rubyruy>so this is my line here ? 37 * 10 00 02 01 01 08 11 42 81 7B 78
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21:18<rubyruy>the one setting the refit mask for the bulk freighter
21:18<rubyruy>ok where are these bitmasks specced?
21:18<Aali>its in the cargo types table
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>42 81 6V 78 is the bitmask
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>the "2" is the lowest nibble, 1=PASS, 2=COAL, 4=MAIL, 8=OIL_
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>so this ship can load coal, but not passengers, mail or oil
21:20<+glx>6V ?
21:20<rubyruy>which 2?
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>B, not V
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21:20<rubyruy>in 42?
21:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes, in 42
21:21<Eddi|zuHause>the 4 is the next highest nibbles, defining the next 4 cargos
21:21<Eddi|zuHause>then the 1 is the next higher, then the 8
21:22<Eddi|zuHause>the values are always 1,2,4,8 you add the ones that are allowed to be refit, so 7=1+2+4 meaning 3 cargos can be refit, and the 4th not
21:23<Eddi|zuHause>B means 1+2+8
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>next step: open the grf defining the cargo, and find out which ID the cargo has there
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21:26<rubyruy>i think i need a more detailed description of the bitmask... i can't quite follow your description
21:26<Aali>nah, just pull it from the ecs wiki page
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>ok, more detailed. the bitmask is: "42 81 7B 78". these are bytes (8 bit) is in little endian notation, but we split it now in nibbles (4 bit) and rearrange them with the lowest nibble first
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>2 4 1 8 B 7 8 7
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>now we split each nibble into bits
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>the lowest bit first again
21:30<Aali>the other way around
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>0100 0010 1000 0001 1101 1110 0001 1110
21:30<Aali>7 8 7 B 8 1 4 2
21:30<Aali>and the table lists fish as 4000
21:31<Eddi|zuHause>now these bits are exactly in the same order as the translation table above
21:31<Aali>so we add 4 to 8, which makes C
21:31<Aali>and the new mask is 7 8 7 B C 1 4 2
21:31<Aali>or \dx787BC142 in nfospeak
21:33<rubyruy>so .... 2 means "Starting with coal"... and then the 0010 refers to the refitability of coal mail oil and livestock respectively?
21:33<rubyruy>er no that can't be right
21:33<rubyruy>or do we just start from the beginning?
21:34<rubyruy>so the first "0100" means -> PASS: NO, COAL: YES, MAIL: NO, OIL: NO
21:34<rubyruy>and so forth
21:34<rubyruy>also is Aali right about the whole thing being flipped?
21:34<Aali>its really 0010, but yes
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>PASS COAL MAIL OIL_ - 0100
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>LVST GOOD GRAI WOOD - 0010
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>IORE STEL VALU PAPR - 1000
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>FOOD FRUT FISH WOOL -0001
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>POTA SAND GLAS WDPR - 1101
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>DYES FERT OLSD RFPR - 1110
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>VEHI PETR BRCK SULP - 0001
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>CMNT FICR LIME TOUR - 1110
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>this is the refit mask
21:35<rubyruy>got it
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>so the possible cargos now are COAL, GRAI, IORE, WOOL, POTA, SAND, WDPR, DYES, FERT, OLSD, SULP, CMNT, FICR, LIME
21:38<Eddi|zuHause>so to add FISH now, you flip the 0001 to 0011, which changes the value from 8 to 8+4 = 12 = C
21:39<Aali>thats just confusing though
21:39<Aali>you never write numbers like that
21:39<Aali>0011 is 3
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>why not? just because you are too narrow minded?
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>i said multiple times that my notation is the lowest bit first
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>because that notation fits exactly with the table, where you start with the lowest index
21:40<Aali>i'm narrow minded because i want the rest of the world to understand what i'm writing? :P
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>i don't care about "the rest of the world"
21:48<rubyruy>err small issue here
21:48<rubyruy>why does CERE not show up in the cargo table list?
21:48<Eddi|zuHause><rubyruy> also is Aali right about the whole thing being flipped? <- in maths, there is no "right" or "wrong"... you define it one way or another, and then stick with it, as long as it suits your needs best
21:48<rubyruy>it does end up being an accepted good
21:49<Aali>rubyruy: the cargo translation table has no effect, i thought we went over this
21:49<rubyruy>oh right... but where is it getting the values form then?
21:49<Eddi|zuHause>rubyruy: chances are, cereals just happen to overwrite one of the values from that list
21:49<rubyruy>it can't be newships.grf
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's defined in the appropriate newindustries grf
21:50<Aali>cereals is ID 06 without a translation table
21:51<Eddi|zuHause>which happens to be GRAI in this list
21:51<Eddi|zuHause>so all vehicles that previously accepted grain, now accept cereals instead
21:51<Aali>once again, that list has no effect
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21:52<Aali>grain isn't defined at all in ECS
21:52<Aali>and it doesn't have to be ID 6 in vanilla although it probably is
21:52<rubyruy>i am still confused a but about the order differences
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>you can write anything backwards, if that fits you better
21:53<rubyruy>so grfcodec spits out 42 81 7B 78
21:53<rubyruy>grf2html calls it 787B8142
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the first is called little endian, the second is called big endian
21:53<Aali>rubyruy: thats because its in little-endian
21:53<rubyruy>ok so which is way does the game read it?
21:54<Aali>the second is still little endian, but its reading the whole 4 bytes
21:54<rubyruy>i.e. does 7 or 4 correspond to the first 4 goods?
21:54<Aali>+is the first four goods
21:54<rubyruy>2 then 4 then 1 then 8 ?
21:54<rubyruy>i.e. the second one reversed?
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>the 2 stands for the first 4 goods. it appears in the end in the big endian notation
21:54<Aali>basically, yes
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>you can now either reverse the bits, or reverse the translation table
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>to make the bits match the translation table
21:55<rubyruy>should i end up with this? "0010", "0100", "0001", "1000", "1011", "0111", "1000", "0111"]
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>i chose the first option
21:56<Eddi|zuHause>i now also reversed the bits
21:56<Eddi|zuHause>so 0010 becomes 0100
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21:56<rubyruy>ok i think that looks right finally
21:57<rubyruy>ruby code i used (because i'm useless at bit ops yes you may laugh at me) refit_mask = "787B8142".reverse.scan(/./).map{|h| h.to_i(16).to_s(2).rjust(4,'0').reverse}
21:57<Eddi|zuHause>that looks awful :p
21:57<rubyruy>yes yes it does
21:57<Aali>just look at the table on the wiki
21:58<Aali>add up the numbers under bit value
21:58<Aali>and you're done
21:59<Eddi|zuHause>table schnable... don't rely on someone else's knowledge if you can derive it yourself
21:59<rubyruy>that doesn't help me with decomposing an existing mask though :p
21:59<rubyruy>i can see Eddi is a purist :)
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21:59<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm just faster at decoding this bitmask than finding the place where the table might hide ;)
22:01<Aali>if you're used to counting in hex you can work it out yourself in 2 seconds, yes
22:01<Aali>rubyruy obviously isn't
22:01<Eddi|zuHause>i went through that exact same procedure when i adjusted dbxl_ecs.grf for PBI cargos
22:02<Eddi|zuHause>since i had no way of transporting clay
22:02<rubyruy>hmm problem
22:02<rubyruy>the bitmasks works out to the following cargos being accepted for the bulk freighter: 1, 6, 8, f, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e
22:02<rubyruy>which includes among other things potash and sand
22:03<rubyruy>none of which are actually listed in the freighter in ttd
22:03<rubyruy>is this because i use that construction set?
22:03<Aali>i've made tropic refurbishment set carry ECS cargoes
22:03<Eddi|zuHause>the cargos will only show up if an industry is defined that produces them
22:04<Aali>i'm actually working on that now, but the refit masks are done, just have to set the right sprite groups for everything
22:04<rubyruy>so it would vary with climate? or can it not show up if that industry is simply not on the map yet?
22:05<Aali>rubyruy: new chemical vector doesn't have potash
22:05<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's about which industries are defined, not which industries exist
22:05<Eddi|zuHause>if you loaded a grf that provides a sand pit, then sand should show up as cargo
22:06<Aali>sand does show up as a cargo
22:06<rubyruy>so it is i'm just blind :p
22:06<rubyruy>OKAY THEN
22:06<rubyruy>i think that solves most misteries now :)
22:06<rubyruy>Aali: do i still need to look into that action 18 business you were mentionining a while back?
22:07<rubyruy>ok so just add fish to the bitmask and hope for the best eh?
22:07<Aali>that was just in case the original grf defined it, but it doesn't
22:07<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, newships is very old
22:08<Eddi|zuHause>dbset also, which is why these extension grfs were necessary
22:08<Eddi|zuHause>as no new versions are expected to be released in the near future
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22:24<rubyruy>so i changed 81 to 83 and now the grf shows up blue in the settings :(
22:24<rubyruy>and won't load
22:24<rubyruy>no error message
22:25<rubyruy>blue means not loaded right?
22:25<Aali>its supposed to be C1, not 83, but that shouldn't cause anything like that
22:26<Aali>did you press apply changes?
22:26<rubyruy>i did
22:29<Eddi|zuHause>does the change appear in the build vehicle window?
22:33<rubyruy>hooray it works!
22:33<rubyruy>must have been something i did and forgot about
22:34<rubyruy>i redecoded and encoded the original
22:34<rubyruy>works fine now :)
22:34<rubyruy>if i were to edit this further to add tourists to the passenger ships is it worth putting up somewhere ya figure?
22:38<rubyruy> that sure is a ship full of fish :D
22:39<Eddi|zuHause>you should not just take someone else's grf, modify it, and redistribute it
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22:39<Eddi|zuHause>you should at least talk to the original author
22:39<Eddi|zuHause>which in this case is Michael Blunck
22:41<rubyruy>oh right
22:41<rubyruy>of course
22:52<Sacro>banshee is using 790MiB of RAM
22:52<Sacro>that's not good
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 04 00:00:50 2008